Hey all, we have a big decision to make and some worries about various models of Samsung DLPs and were wondering if a few of you could take a few minutes out of your busy days to give us some advice. Just so you know, I'm not one of those people that doesn't research or use the search function and just asks questions that have already been answered numerous times. I have, in the last year or so, poured over these and other forums researching these models, thinking over the pros and cons, then researching some more. At this point I must admit, although I am great with computers, electronics, and the researching thereof, to being quite confused and unsure of how to proceed with our purchase.

We currently have a Samsung HLN617W 61" DLP (720p). It has been excellent for us, with no problems at all. For about 2.5 years now we've been looking at purchasing a 1080p capable DLP to upgrade, since we have a PS3, Xbox 360, HD DirecTV, and a high-end HTPC that would all (well, those that support it) look better at higher resolution, especially now with the advent of Blu-Ray. It would also be nice to have some HDMI ports, which ours does not provide. Anyway, about 2 years ago we had our hearts set on the HLS6767W 61" DLP from Costco.....that is, until we heard the new LED sets were coming "soon". Well, 2 years later and they are finally here at a time when they are available at a reasonable price and when we have the funds to make the purchase. We thought it would be an easy choice....until I started with that nasty habit of doing research before making a purchase! Now, having read about all the problems plaguing the new Samsung LED models, especially the screen bowing, I am hesitant to pull the trigger on one.

Again, I'm not one of those people that doesn't use the search function and just asks questions that have already been answered numerous times, so please don't point me to the owner's thread. While exceptionally informative, it has become quite a mess since the release and after pouring over the 300 or so pages, I'm still having trouble discerning how common the problems are with the new LEDs. I also am unsure how often the bowing issue is coming up in the non-LED slim bezel designs. I hear a lot of people complaining about them and a HUGE number of people voting in polls that they have encountered these very problems, but that may not be accurate, since many people that have NO problems may not be voicing their success stories.

We have been extremely pleased with our current Samsung, so had planned on getting another Samsung to replace it, although I'm questioning that now as well after hearing some of the screen bowing customer service horror stories. We have been victims of absolutely HORRENDOUS customer service from far too many companies we have dealt with in the past, and these stories have me quite worried. At this point, we have been considering the following models:

HLS6767W 67" DLP
HLT6187SAX 61" LED DLP
HLT6189S 61" LED DLP
HLT6176S 61" DLP

Anyway, enough babbling about it.....what I'm hoping you can all advise me on is:

1) How prevalent are the issues with this year's LED Samsung models, especially the major ones like screen bowing?

2) Has there been any word on whether these problems will be corrected on the 2008 models (in other words, should we wait for the new models?)?

3) What is your opinion of Samsung after these problems of late and would you suggest any DLP models of a similar size (60"+) from other manufacturers that you PERSONALLY view as "better"?

4) Do you, PERSONALLY, think a safer route would be to purchase a "regular bulb" model (for a cheaper price) until the problems are fleshed out with the LEDs (or lasers are released)?

5) Do you PERSONALLY believe the pros of the LED models over the others I have listed outweigh the potential problems?

6) Provide your PERSONAL opinion on the models I listed, and any advice or thoughts on them you may have.

7) Finally, do most extended warranties cover the screen bowing issue, or do they brush you off as well?


Those questions I listed above are what I'm hoping some of the great people here can answer for us. Any help, answers, or advice you all can give us will be forever appreciated! As I stated in some of the questions that are more subjective, just your opinions will be of great value to us, as they are likely to vary a great deal. I can't tell you how many big purchases over the years we have had poor experiences with, mostly due to defects such as the "bowing" problems. Rest assured, with our luck, whatever can go wrong will, thus our need for further advice beyond just reading the forums. Despite doing, literally, an insane amount of research on every big purchase we make, everything (but our previous Samsung, although it was our second...the first was replaced after 2 weeks due to screeching color wheel, LoL) seems to break almost immediately after purchase, LoL, so any help you can offer up to attempt to prevent this will make our day. Consider it your good deed for the day, LoL. In all seriousness, though, thank you so much for any advice or opinions you can provide us with in advance, and for taking the time out of your surely busy days to help a couple of fellow AV nuts out....

Aaron & Yvonne

1) How prevalent are the issues with this year's LED Samsung models, especially the major ones like screen bowing?

I have a HL-T5089S (purchased 08-01-07) and have no bowing at all or any other issues mention on this board

3) What is your opinion of Samsung after these problems of late and would you suggest any DLP models of a similar size (60"+) from other manufacturers that you PERSONALLY view as "better"?

Samsung is top quality...may not be THE best but definately one of the best.

4) Do you, PERSONALLY, think a safer route would be to purchase a "regular bulb" model (for a cheaper price) until the problems are fleshed out with the LEDs (or lasers are released)?

No...LED is the way to go.

5) Do you PERSONALLY believe the pros of the LED models over the others I have listed outweigh the potential problems?

Yes.

6) Provide your PERSONAL opinion on the models I listed, and any advice or thoughts on them you may have.

HL-T6187 or 89 would be great.

Thanks so much for the advice! Any "experts" care to weigh in on how common they believe the problems with the LED and thin-bezel models to be? Would be an enormous help!

It doesn't matter what tv you are asking about - you will have some members say the LED sammy's are plagued with problems, others will say it is the best rp out there. (I have an SXRD A3000, so I am not looking to start a flame-war).

The best advice I can give you is to buy from a seller with a solid return policy.

My parents have an older DLP 720p set that has worked fine for them. When I was looking at buying my first HDTV I also looked at Samsung because I've always liked their products. I didn't go with them because of the bowing issue and because I found a great deal on the Mitsubishi I bought.

Not much input thus far........anyone else?

Just quit agonizing and go for it.

I've been going back and forth between a Samsung LED DLP and a Sony A3000 myself. My local Sears has both the 55/6 inch and the 60/1 inch models setup side by side. Its really hard to tell the difference in image quality--they all look really great.

But for me, well after more reading that I can take, I'm leaning towards the Sony. More solid build quality, 120hz refresh, much better consumer ratings--pretty much everywhere I read, and better out of the box audio (if that's important to you). Price is a wash, and in fact I can get a slightly better deal on the Samsungs... but with those slightly less favorable reviews I'm still giving Sony the edge.

The one and only drawback is that Sony is getting out of RPTVs. Still, they'll support the TV whether they make a new model or not so its not big deal to me. The last RPTV I bought is more than 10 years old!

Really, price isn't a big deal to me as long as it isn't ridiculously high. In the case of our past TV, and this one as well, I liked DLP because of several things I'll list below.....

The first reason I have chosen DLP in the past and lean that that way for this purchase is that burn-in cannot occur. We use our living room TV as the monitor for our main home PC, and do a LOT of web browsing, word processing, picture/video/audio editing, and video watching. With the amount of time static images stay on our screen, the possibility of burn-in with other types of televisions scares me.

The second reason is the ease of replacing parts on a DLP. Not a whole lot is likely to go wrong, and if it does, replacements are usually easy to obtain and painless to install.

The third reason is the bulb......replacing the bulb restores the TV to original brightness, unlike plasma. This is HUGE for us since the TV is usually on in excess of 8 hours a day since I work from home (and on the PC) many days.

Fourth is just picture quality. For our original purchase, I looked over every model of LCD, DLP, LCOS, CRT, and plasma in town and to my eye DLP looked to have the best, brightest quality, and among the best viewing angles. I thought it was even better than our previous TV, a behemoth 65" Pioneer Elite 1080i RPTV.

Anyway, I'm not trying to start a "flame-war" or anything. I'm a DLP fan and have always been happy with Samsung products, although I've never had to deal with their customer service. I saw someone stated "just quit agonizing and go for it". Well, the reason I am agonizing so much is because of REALLY horrendous past experiences with large purchases and, literally, tens of thousands of dollars lost to defective items and poor customer service despite researching my purchases more than anyone I've ever seen!

**Below, in red, is a small cross-section of my poor purchasing experiences that cause me to be so hesitant to "go for it" and really seek advice. It is quite long, so if you don't feel like reading it, skip to the next non-red paragraph, LoL**

Just to name a few, in the 90's I purchased a $5000 PC from Micron. It arrived, but didn't work properly and crashed constantly. To get to customer service, you had to spend in excess of 4 hours on hold to get to an operator. Now, when I did my research, this company was "supposed" top have one of the top rated customer service departments according to magazines I read and trusted. Over a 2 week span, I called every day and sat on the phone as long as I could, usually 2-4 hours, before finally having to hang up. One day, I cleared my schedule, put my phone on speaker, and decided to sit around all day if I had to. 5 hours later a rep answered and said hello. I jumped up, shouted "hang on, I'm on speaker" and went to grab the phone....only to hear the "click" as he hung up seconds later!

The next day, I again cleared my schedule, laid down with the TV on, and instead balanced the phone on my ear. 6 hours later a rep answered and I was able to explain my problem. They told me I would have to call their local repair-person in my area. They gave me the number and left it at that. I called each day for over 2 weeks.....but no one ever answered. I would just get an answering machine. Each day, I left a message and never they never returned the call. Finally, I was forced to call Micron back, and sit on the phone for hours again. When they finally picked up, I told them my story. They said all they could do was call the company themselves on a "special line" and relate my story. I asked if I could simply get the number to the "special line" and was told no. So we left it at that.

Several days later, I actually got a call from the repair people. We made an appointment. They arrived several hours late, causing me to miss work, but at least they were there, right? Anyway, the guy fiddled with the PC for about 30 minutes, then turned it off and told me all was fixed. I thanked him, but asked if I c ould make sure before he left. He insisted it was fine, but was in a huge hurry due to being late and left despite my protests. By the time I turned it on and realized it still wasn't working, then sprinted outside, he was long gone.

At this point, I called Micron, told them what had happened, and demanded something be done. I was told that I should call the company, leave another message, and they would do the same. I called every day again, but got no call back. Micron, in another call, told me to be patient. Finally, furious, I called them again to really give them a piece of my mind. I was horrified to find, however, that they claimed my warrantee was EXPIRED because so long had passed. They wouldn't listen to reason when I explained to the person, then their manager, about the problems I had encountered with their "repair" company. Even though all my calls and problems were documented, all the manager could do was refer me to the "trade-in" department, where she insisted I would get a fair price and could then order a whole new PC that would be "problem-free". Long rest of the story short, when I spoke with the people in the repair department thay advised me I could get $250 toward the purchase of a new PC! Despite several more calls nothing was done and the trade-in value wasn't raised. It was at this point and due to this experience I taught myself to build PCs, LoL.

Now you might think this is an isolated incident and I'nm being foolish clinging to my fears, but my luck is so that when I purchase an expensive item, even one with a company that ios rated highly in customer service. Something always goes wrong and the customer service is always lacking, despite my fiance and I being very understanding but firm on the phone.

Our bad luck is famous among everyone we know. This includes a $5000 car stereo that started my trunk on fire and was never replaced despite many legal fees. This includes DirecTV installers that try to extort money out of me after sitting on my roof for 30 minutes drinking beer......and say if I don't pay them $200 to fix my dish they will report I have no line of sight and no one will ever come over again.......then follow up on their threat after I throw them out and cause me 6 months of headaches trying to get someone back out to do the install after BUYING the equipment. This includes my first Samsung TV that had a color wheel that sounded like a woman was being murdered within its depths........thank goodness I had an extended warantee through the store I bought it from.......but due to this reason I haven't dealt with Samsung's customer service, thus the concerns. This includes a car I purchased with only 10,000 miles on it whose breaks went out on the highway, causing me to total it. This includes my Pioneer Elite.......first big screen TV I ever purchased, that had a smorgesbord of alignment problems and blurriness throughout the 3-4 years I owned it.....for which I was told my extended warantee (that I paid $1000 at the time, when HDTVs were first released) did not cover by what was supposedly the highest regarded AV retailer in my area!

This includes a multitude of other horrific stories I won't bore you with at this time, but that have taught me to not only research, but to ask LOTS of questions from those that actually own the item, not just those that sell it!

Thus, my very specific questions to the knowledgeable people I trust from these forums........those that are familiar with the TVs I am considering, as well as the problems I am concerned about. So please, for someone with the worst large-item-purchasing-luck on Earth......can some of you kind souls please chime in and answer my questions or give your opinions on the TVs I mentioned, as well as any other DLPs or LCDs you would advise someone with my viewing habits take a look at? It would be much appreciated and I'll be sure to report back with my thoughts on the model I DO buy for those that come after me with the same questions.

I also didn't see a thread other than the 300 page owners thread that discussed these concerns, so I'm sure it could be very helpful for those with the same questions that come after me. I've poured over the owners thread and any other speck of info I could dig up, but now need some specific advice. Thanks in advance for anyone that can give me that.....we and our pocketbook will be forever greatful, LoL.......please....experts......your thoughts on the questions I posed for us and the other bad-luck families out there??

I am glad u asked also.. I am between the sammy xx89 or mits 833.

I bought the Sammy HLT6187 61" LED 1080p DLP this past summer. My first HDTV was a Panny 50" LCD. It was a nice TV but I wanted something a little bigger and with HDMI connections. After much research I was convinced the Sammy was the way to go. I was correct. This will probably be my last TV.
Here are my reasons to buy this TV, and why I like it over an LCD
- LED light engine rated to last 20 yrs.
- No "spinning color wheel"
- Deeper blacks/colors more vibrant than LCD
- 3 HDMI ports
- Sleek black cabinet with 1/2" frame (All TV) I HAVE NO BOWING!!!
- No screen door effect/no trailing blurs
- No burn-in
- 10,000 to 1 contrast ratio
The PQ from an HD source is EXCEPTIONAL. The PQ from SD is ok but after you watch HD you will be spoiled. The PQ from my BluRay is absolutly stunning! If you have a large room and have 12-15' from TV, this TV will blow you away. If you hook it up to a good sound system, you will have a monster HT. There are many reviews online and most all of them are positive. For the money, I don't believe you can find a better TV. This is just my humble opnion, but hope it helps.

Aloe Vera, you have obviously done your homework and the reasons you listed are the same reasons this is the TV for you. Eight months have past and I still get a thrill watching this TV. FYI...I got mine from Sears (because they price match and have good service)and bought the 5 yr service plan. Hated to spend the extra $$, but this was no small purchase for me and I felt I needed the peace of mind. FWIW.

I have the same TV you have now, and love it. I'm going to upgrade to the LED Samsung, but will probably wait a few months for th 2008's. Should have even brighter LED's and more contrast ratio.

Oh my goodness, now I'm REALLY scared! I was just over at the Best Buy website, and happened to look at the reviews for both the Samsung LED and regular TVs, and was horrified at what I saw. Seriously, out of.....say.......40 reviews posted........1 of about every 4 complain of the bowing problem! There are numerous people that say they're on the 3rd, 4th, or even 5th TV because of the horrendous bowing in these Samsung models. Now I REALLY don't know what to do! Does anyone know if the problem is fixed in the 2008 models? Anyone know if the 67" model I mentioned is known for the bowing issue as well? Finally, anyone know how much of an issue this is with other brands like Mits? Geez, now I'm really hesitant to pull the trigger on the purchase, and had been thinking aboput going out and purchasing one tomorrow, too! Damn! I'm rwally getting scared away from the Samsung brand (at least from these slim models) after reading the horror stories. From what I hear, Samsung denies it is much of a problem and doesn't seem too worried about it, but geez.....that's about the worst thing I can imagine happening to my new TV, LoL. Thoughts all? Am I worrying too much? I wish more "experts" would chime in with what they know about the severity of the problem, and with some comparisons to other brands. I'm really thinking of going another route now, but want to make sure other brands aren't experiencing the same issues......

Aloe...you sure that was for the LED series 87's and 89's and not the lamp based super slim 76 series?

Oh my goodness, now I'm REALLY scared! I was just over at the Best Buy website, and happened to look at the reviews for both the Samsung LED and regular TVs, and was horrified at what I saw. Seriously, out of.....say.......40 reviews posted........1 of about every 4 complain of the bowing problem! There are numerous people that say they're on the 3rd, 4th, or even 5th TV because of the horrendous bowing in these Samsung models. Now I REALLY don't know what to do!

You were looking at the wrong set. You were reading the reviews for the HL-T6176S. Bowing is not a common problem for the HL-T6187.

These other people are right- bowing seems to be rare or at least minimal in the LED models. Bowing seems to be very common in the lamp (76) series. I have read the entire LED thread. Many "owners" actually had a lamp model, and got the LED model as a replacement after having bowing issues. Take a look at the specs or look at the sets in the stores and it's easy to see why. Samsung was desperately trying to appeal to the masses who love flat panels and ship DLP's that aren't much thicker. But RP can only be so thin before geometry issues begin. Simple answer is that LED models are at verge of that threshold, while the new bulb models went past it.

Personally, I think the whole thing is silly. The thin lamp models are still twice as thick as a direct view, and people ain't gonna change their minds that they need lcd or plasma. For me, the LED at about 14" thick is already way slimmer than my current crtv. And I still have to put my components on a stand. Which brings me to something else I think people overlook and the rptv makers did NOT advertise enough- RPTVs are actually the lightest technology now, and weigh around half as much as a plasma. Even less than same size LCD, though difference isn't nearly so big as w/ plamsa. Sammy LED version also uses less energy per sq in than just about ANY tv out there. Considering some 90% of flat panel owners put the tv on a stand anyway, they could have saved money with a rptv AND had something they could move around safely with just the wife's help. I think you'd be happy with the 87 or 89s series.

Since I think most are grown up enough not to start flame wars, I'll add that even though I prefer the Samsung, you might want to look for any Sony A3000 models still around. It's also a great tv with even better reviews. And build quality seems more sturdy than Sammy, imo. It has bulbs, but Sony's I think are some of the cheapest (around $150 online). I'll most likely buy a Samsung LED myself. Good luck.

Not to mention the fact, that you have to watch customer reviews on big name dealer sites like a hawk...Because half the people writing negative reviews don't bother to post them on the correct manufactures model number. They have a gripe with an LG product for example. They just post the bitch on the first LG product that's at the top of the dealers page that happens to have a similar product description picture..."Hey it's an LG TV, isn't it?"

Well, I went into Best Buy yet again today to check out both of them again. My fiance and I inspected the LED model, poking and prodding it. I had read several reviews on the LED stating that you could cause the screen to bow and throw off the geometry just by pushing on the middle top part of the bezel. I tested this out, but didn't see the effect the reviewers were talking about. I was glad about that, since that would be REALLY shoddy workmanship if that were the case. I was, however, a bit put off by the fact that, after discovering a little "lip" on the back of the bezel in the spot I previously described, I found I could pull the bezel up about 1/2 an inch with my bare hands and not much force. This was true all along the top of the TV, although near tyhe sides the bezel attached to the "side panels" of the bezel and moved less than in the middle. As I said, I have an NLN617W, and after getting home and examining our current TV thoroughly, the workmanship seems much better and the TV far more sturdy and solid. This kind of concerns me....one would think design would get better over the years, not worse! Our HLN is made of some really solid feeling plastic, where the LED is made of rather flimsy material it seems.....which....again....worries me.....

We also actually went around to a couple of other retailers and checked out the Mitsubishi line (both regular and Diamond series) and the Sony Bravia line. We really didn't like the look of the Mitsubishi line, especially the regular line, as it seemed a bit dull (both the outward appearance and picture). We really like the look of the Samsung lines better. I also looked up the Mitsubishi lines on several websites, and there seems to be a high incident of problems with them as well. A local "high end" store really pushed the Mitsubishi Diamond line on us, buyt the price was a bit higher than what we wanted to spend, and we haven't researched the line very thoroughly, so we declined.....not to mention it isn't an LED. The guy said Mitsubishi Diamond series will have a laser model available next year as well, if we wanted to wait.

As far as the Bravia line, I was curious about a few things.....the first being why the 70" is SO much more expensive than the 50" and 60" models. I was horrified to see it listed in excess of $30,000! Is LCD that expensive once you reach those bigger sizes? Wow! Anyway, we were looking at them but all anyone had in stock were the 50" models.....no one had the 60". We really liked the look of the smaller Bravia models with the clear bezel all the way around, but weren't too fond of the 50" model that just had the clear bezel on the bottom edge. No one carried the 60" models......I was curious whether they make a 60" with the clear bezel all the way around.....and if so, whether it is REALLY expensive like the 70" model. Anyone care to enlighten me? I'll have to do some research.....I'm not up to date on the LCDs, since I have always favored the DLP for reasons I listed above. Anyway, those are just our thoughts after our trip around town to look at these models. Any input or thoughts for us?

I think at this point we're leaning toward just getting the DLP bulb model at a cheap price and waiting to make a more expensive purchase for a couple of years until better LED or laser models are released. We can get a pretty good deal on the bulb model.....about $1000 less than the LED, so I'm thinking we may just go that route for the time being, go cheap for now, and then look to spend more when the technology has (hopefully) had time for the bugs to be ironed out. Thoughts?

Thanks so much for all your input and thoughts everyone....we really appreciatre all the help. More would be appreciated as well, and we'll be sure to post what we decide to do, as well as how it turns out for us.....

On a side note, we went to Costco to check out the 67", which we were kind of leaning toward since it had the old, larger bezel. When we got there, we realized the only one thjey had left was a display model. It looked to be in good shape, but I'm REALLY wary about purchasing display models. I had looked online as well, and this model is no longer listed on the Costco site.

Anyway, I looked at the price, and it was listed as $200 MORE than I had seen the TV selling for on the Costco website and in that very store over 6 months ago! I asked a worker if there was a manager around I could speak to about the TV, and she went off to retrieve him/her. She came back shortly after and told me the manager was too busy, but had agreed to take $100 off since it was a display. I told her that Costco had regularly sold that model for $200 cheaper that the list price both at that store and online even up to 1 year prior, and with the new LED models out I had thought it would be even cheaper, especially for a display model. She left to go ask the manager again, then returned without him/her again and stated I would be getting a really good deal, since they show the list price to be $3000! I told her that in the past 2 years I had seen that model in store and online, it was never even CLOSE to that price.......but was still very polite.

At that point another guy came over and told me there was no way they could verify that it had been sold that cheap, which seemed strange to me since it seems they could check, but oh well. I told them that since it was a display, a bit scarfed up, had who knows how many hours on the lamp and how many kids had hung on and punched it, and since I had seen it new, with a stand, delivered for $100 cheaper even up to 1 year ago, and since the new models were now out, I wonder if they might bother the manager one more time with this info and see if he might drop the price to at least $100-$200 under what it had sold for previously, since the stand was now NOT included! I also told them if they could accomodate me with a lower price I would purchase it right then, and showed them that I had the cash to do so.

Keep in mind, all the while I was very friendly, courteous, and continually told them I wasn't trying to give them a hard time, just liked the TV but didn't want to overpay for a used item they had sold for far cheaper in the past. Anyway, they left again reluctantly to speak with the manager again, came back a few minutes later, and told me that the manager had told me I needed to either buy the TV at the price I was quoted or leave and quit arguing. Needless to say, I left, quite disgusted.

I had always thought Costco was know for customer service, and had never experienced any problems there in the past, but geez......don't think I'll be shopping at that store again soon......probably for the better anyway. With our luck, it probably isn't advisable to purchase a floor model! I just likedf that model due to it being a bit bigger and having the old, thick bezel while still being a 1080p model.

Anyway, just thought I'd tell you the story since apparently the 67" has been crossed off our list since I can't find int anywhere but there......*sigh*.......

The 70" you saw was an XBR2. The XBR line was discontinued in rptv's from Sony.
The Sony's are the A3000 series.
Also, the talk of flimsy cabinets is also more of a 6176S thing as the LED models seem sturdier to me. Maybe not the best, but better than the 76's. Are you sure yopu were playing with the LED and not the lamp based?

*Also, what 67" Samsung did costco have? It is not even out yet??

With our luck, it probably isn't advisable to purchase a floor model!

Purchasing a floor model is just buying a used model, but from an owner that most likely abused the device. I would never pay more than half of the retail price for such a risky purchase.

Why? Display TVs are setup in torch-mode, so that poor lamp is most likely on it's last lap. It has been fiddled with by numerous shoppers and employees who have no reason to express any care. You beat on the top of the set to test the geometry and rigidity. Think what else has happened to it? Lastly, it is unlikely that Costco will have any more since they are trying to sell the display. That complicates any return/exchange in the future.

Oh, and yes, about LCDs. Once they go over 50" the price starts going up exponentially. Why do you think Sony is trying to get rid of the RPTV market. Profits are good when a 60" screen will set you back 6 grand.

Aloe Vera,

You need a pen pal to whine to, not advice.

Well, I went into Best Buy yet again today to check out both of them again. My fiance and I inspected the LED model, poking and prodding it. I had read several reviews on the LED stating that you could cause the screen to bow and throw off the geometry just by pushing on the middle top part of the bezel.

<snip>

Once again, you're researching the wrong model. This is a problem with XX76 series of slim line DLP's, not the XX87/89 LED models.

As far as the lamp/LED thing people keep mentioning, it was indeed an LED I was inspecting at Best Buy. As I said, I didn't get the chance to compare it to the lamp model, but the flimsy workmanship I noticed was indeed on the lamp model, although when I've viewed the lamp model in the past I've never poked and prodded it as I did with the LED, so for all I know it could be similar or worse in flimsy-factor....

I also kind of resent the statement about me "pounding on" the display model. This implies I was rough with it and did not respect the property of Best Buy. This is in no way the case. I had read reports that even gentle pressing on the top, middle area of the bezel would cause a bowing effect, so I tested this assertion. In no way did I apply enough pressure to damage any normal television, and even moving the TV from one location to another would have "pounded" on it more. I also noticed the bezel could be "pulled up" from the frame of the TV with even a slight amount of pressure. I didn't test it's limits or anything, LoL, I just made a note of the ability to do so. In neither instance did I ever "pound" or exert enough force on any part of the TV to damage it......and doing so would be completely disrespectful to Best Buy, their employees, and their property. Anyway, just wanted to make that clear since it didn't appear to be so in my last post......judging by the "pounding" comment.....

And finally, no, I'm not researching the wrong model. While I have indeed heard about the bowing problem with both the lamp and LED models, I have heard MORE bowing stories concerning the LED model, or the HL-T6187S and the HL-T6189S. The lamp based model, or the HL-T6176S, as I said, has some stories of bowing as well.....I wasn't implying that it didn't or that this model was free of the problem. From my research at least.....or at least from the experiences reported by owners of the LED model here and on several other A/V sites, the LED models experience at the very least the same incidence of bowing as the lamp based models. I wasn't considering purchasing the lamp model because no bowing was known to occur, but rather because it was around $1000 cheaper than the LED, so even if the bowing did occur I would have less money invested. If I did purchase the lamp model at a cheaper price, I would then look to purchase another model of LED or laser a couple years down the road when the bugs have been worked out.....since I didn't spend much on the cheap lamb-based Samsung. That was my assertion as far as my research on both models.....sorry if it appeared I was getting them mixed up. Hopefully this clarifies it more.

For the inquiry about the Costco 67" model.....I believe it was the HL-R6767W. Costco has had them online and in-store for over a year, at least. They are not the new 67" models that are coming out, but older ones.

Finally, about the pen pal comment.....LoL. If you find my posts to be too thorough or the words too "large" to read comfortably, feel free to go elsewhere and not lend a hand. If you had experienced the previous problems we have when making large purchases, you would be cautious and research the topic thoroughly as well. Everyone could probably do with researching products a little more extensively before making a purchase. Not a very nice comment for someone that has been a long-time member and reader of the boards and has come here looking for help. Isn't that what these boards are for? Since 2003, I believe we've asked for help with something a total of 3 or 4 times. I hardly think this qualifies us for such a nasty response as that "pen pal" remark. People like you make forum members hesitant to ask questions. If you don't like our discussion, just go away and allow us and the other extremely helpful, intelligent forum members to discuss the issue in peace.

Anyway, thanks again to all the helpful forum members that have chimed in to help and offer their opinions. We're going to make a decision by the end of this week, so keep the advice/opinions coming and we'll continue to post anything we find in our search and let you know when we make a decision.....and how that turns out for us. Thanks so much, each piece of info/advice you take the time from your busy schedules to post here is very much appreciated!

. From my research at least.....or at least from the experiences reported by owners of the LED model here and on several other A/V sites, the LED models experience at the very least the same incidence of bowing as the lamp based models.



That is the direct opposite of what I have found through research and demoing.
Not that there isn't any with the LED's but there is more of and more severe bowing in the slimmer lamp based 76's due to the cabinet.
If bowing on an LED scares you I would steer clear of rptv's in general. As they keep making them slimmer the geometry suffers along the way.
Best of luck with your purchase I am still deciding as well.
I'd like a 72"/73" but Mitsubishi's seem to have loud fans and premature lamp failures.

And finally, no, I'm not researching the wrong model. While I have indeed heard about the bowing problem with both the lamp and LED models, I have heard MORE bowing stories concerning the LED model, or the HL-T6187S and the HL-T6189S.


You posted: "Oh my goodness, now I'm REALLY scared! I was just over at the Best Buy website, and happened to look at the reviews for both the Samsung LED and regular TVs, and was horrified at what I saw. Seriously, out of.....say.......40 reviews posted........1 of about every 4 complain of the bowing problem! There are numerous people that say they're on the 3rd, 4th, or even 5th TV because of the horrendous bowing in these Samsung models."

If you double check what you read, you'll see that you read the reviews of the HL-T6176S NOT the 6187S. There are 59 reviews of 6187 on Best Buy, and only 2 people complained about bowing, and nobody said they are on their "4th or 5th".

My nephew bought the 61" Samsung DLP, got it home and found it had noticeable "bowing". He exchanged it for another one, same problem. Decided he didn't want to hassle with a third one, and got the Sony KDS-60A3000. I just bought the Sony also. Beautiful picture... yes I know I'll eventually need to replace the projector lamp.
Sorry I don't know the exact model of the Samsung my nephew had problems with, but it's the one that sells for around $2000 - 2200 retail.

Finally, about the pen pal comment.....LoL.


Did you actually burst out laughing? Anyway, it should not take close to 5000 words to ask a question. In fact, your questions and the subsequent answers are of interest to me, too, for the same reasons. Just have mercy on us all and make it more to the point.

My nephew bought the 61" Samsung DLP, got it home and found it had noticeable "bowing". He exchanged it for another one, same problem. Decided he didn't want to hassle with a third one, and got the Sony KDS-60A3000. I just bought the Sony also. Beautiful picture... yes I know I'll eventually need to replace the projector lamp.
Sorry I don't know the exact model of the Samsung my nephew had problems with, but it's the one that sells for around $2000 - 2200 retail.

That's the lamp based 6176S...which is 4" slimmer resulting in more occurences of bowing sets.

Exactly justlou, I was speaking about BOTH models when I said that. My words were "happened to look at the reviews for both the Samsung LED and regular TVs". By regular TVs, I meant the bulb version. Sorry if it wasn't clear. In that statement, I was grouping the two models together, saying I had looked at reviews for both. Hope this clarifies things....sorry if my wording was confusing. The 3rd/4th/5th comments were made in regard to the bulb model I believe, not the LED in that case. I didn't mean to imply all comments/reviews I spoke of were solely in regard to the LED. I was just expressing my concern over getting either model, due to the slim bezel design they share.

I just have trouble believing anybody, who seems to go so far out of their way to find something wrong with a product.

This guy is the kind of spoiled, whiny customer that any electronics retail salesman learns to avoid like the plague. What ever he buys is coming back. No matter how good a product it is, no matter how high the quality, this guy will nit pick till he finds something unbelievably minor wrong with it. Real or imagined. The commission on his sale is not worth the hassle. Because you'll be dealing with his gripes for the next year and he'll want his set replaced enough times, you'll think he's rotating your stock.

Convince him that the Wal-Mart down the road has a GREAT sale on 47" Magnavox LCD's and let them deal with his 5th request for a new TV. Your management will thank you for saving the companies bottom line from this particular breed of customer service parasite.

Oh, just to clear another thing up as well, the research and reviews I mentioned are not limited to the Best Buy site. I know the Best Buy site has more poor reviews of the bulb model than the LED.....far more....I didn't get the two models mixed up. In that post I was grouping the two together, speaking of both.

When I stated elsewhere that it seemed more people had trouble with the LED bowing, I was referring to reviews and sentiments from multiple sites and forums. It may well BE the other way around, but from what I personally have gathered while scouring the Internet for info on both models, I have seen more reports of bowing on the LED. I don't want to misinform people, so realize this is just what I have inferred from my readings on both models over the last year or so.......on multiple sites, not just Best Buy's review pages.

Sorry again, glad we could clear that up.......

Good grief.

Alrighty then......someone forgot to eat their anti-psychotics for breakfast......

but from what I personally have gathered while scouring the Internet for info on both models, I have seen more reports of bowing on the LED.



More LED versions were sold than lamp based this year, so that is probably why you see more in sheer #'s.
But the amount of bowing is considered by most to be much less than the lamp based.

I have the HL-T6189 and my set seems to be flawless - absolutely none of the issues some folks have reported with their sets to include any bowing. Got mine through Tweeter and was very pleased with purchase.

Bottom line, the top two selling DLP's on Amazon are the 5087SAX and the 6187SAX.
The 6187 has 197 reviews on Amazon, and has an overall rating of 4.5 out of 5 stars.
The 5087 has 154 reviews, and an overall rating of 4.5 out of 5 stars.
The vast majority of people that own these sets are quite happy.

I think at this point, after a TON of research and looking at the models mentioned, we have come down to consideration of two models of TV:

Sony KDS-60A3000
Samsung HLT6176S

We've pretty much dismissed the LED model at this point after speaking with an acquaintance that has one and reading the following article sent to me by fellow member slamduncan:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/

Our acquaintance that owns the LED model reports some of the same problems as the article does, as well as slight screen bowing, which we went to see this afternoon. The problem was horrendous in my opinion, far worse than he described on the phone, and unwatchable after being spoiled by the perfect geometry of our HLN617W.

This has led us to throw out the LED model, and we have decided to purchase one of the cheap models to hold us over for a couple of years.....until we purchase either an LED or laser.....hopefully after all the bugs have been worked out. At under $1700, both of the models I mentioned are cheap enough so as to not cost us an arm and a leg if they do experience problems and don't work out, and still allow us to purchase a higher-end and higher-priced model in a couple of years when the bugs are ironed out without breaking the bank. We feel this is our best option at this point, and when we do purchase another TV down the road, we'll simply move this current one to the bedroom.

I seem to be forgetting more information than I'm gathering at this point though, since I was under the impression that although the LED models did NOT have PIP, the bulb models from this year DID. I see they are not listed anywhere as having this feature, which kind of upsets us. Since they've been putting the PIP feature into the bulb models since.....well.....our HLN, I would think it would continue. Anyone know why they chose not to include it? We use it all the time!

On another note, I was also curious if anyone could point me to a thread concerning the HDMI audio issue with the Samsung TVs. Since we currently use component video with our satellite receiver, PS3, and 360, then run the audio out to our receiver, I was wondering how, if we get this TV, to get the audio to our receiver since I've read the audio out on the TV will not output audio from the HDMI inputs. This would cause a huge problem for us, since several of our components will not output audio through the optical outs if the HDMI is connected. That would leave us without audio to our receiver if I'm not mistaken, correct? Is the Sony model I mentioned earlier the same way, or is this strictly a Samsung issue due to the HDCP copy protection? Anyone care to comment or point me to a good thread for discussing this?

Anyway, that's all for now.....I'll post back if we come to a decision or find anything else out. In the meantime, any thoughts?

This guy is the kind of spoiled, whiny customer that any electronics retail salesman learns to avoid like the plague.

You are right about whiny. It is "This guy" I am having problems with. To the best of my knowledge of the human species, no guy since the beginning of time ever said "Alrighty" (see Post #33).

I think I just slipped into a coma......

Hopefully this thread will die now.

I think at this point, after a TON of research and looking at the models mentioned, we have come down to consideration of two models of TV:

Sony KDS-60A3000
Samsung HLT6176S

We've pretty much dismissed the LED model at this point after speaking with an acquaintance that has one and reading the following article sent to me by fellow member slamduncan:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/

Our acquaintance that owns the LED model reports some of the same problems as the article does, as well as slight screen bowing, which we went to see this afternoon. The problem was horrendous in my opinion, far worse than he described on the phone, and unwatchable after being spoiled by the perfect geometry of our HLN617W.


I seem to be forgetting more information than I'm gathering at this point though, since I was under the impression that although the LED models did NOT have PIP, the bulb models from this year DID. I see they are not listed anywhere as having this feature, which kind of upsets us.

...This would cause a huge problem for us, since several of our components will not output audio through the optical outs if the HDMI is connected. That would leave us without audio to our receiver if I'm not mistaken, correct? Is the Sony model I mentioned earlier the same way, or is this strictly a Samsung issue due to the HDCP copy protection? Anyone care to comment or point me to a good thread for discussing this?


1. I'm not doubting anything you said... but as me, E-A-G-L-E-S, and others pointed out there seem to be higher percentages of people returning the lamp model due to bowing. The LED owners thread has many people who got their LED as a replacement for their lamp model w/ bowing issue. I'm beginning to wonder if your confusing discussions of bowing with people who actually have problems. The LED thread had a couple with problems- this led to a lengthy discussion. During this discussion, EVERYONE started throwing up test patterns and checking geometry on there set and reporting how much it was off by (talking 1/8 inch in most cases). They were not saying they had problematic geometry or were upset/returning their set. RPTV's will be off. Truly perfect is like 1 in 1000 for a RPTV. Your friends LED tv may be terrible. You could get a terrible LED or a perfect bulb model- but it doesn't change the fact that bowing is more likely with the bulb model. Both are made by Sammy and likely share many parts. The bulb model is way slimmer. Slimmer means worse geometry for RP, all else being equal. This isn't our opinion, it's physics. I hope your happy with your choice, but don't say we didn't warn you.

If I were you, and wanted a bulb model, I'd get the A3000 over the Sammy 76 series hands down. It's not slim like Sammy. But then the price jumps back up to comparable to an LED model- which I happen to like. Do yourself a favor, go to Vanns.com and look at the clearance center. Look for RPTV's, and see how many returned Samsung sets are on sale. Notice a trend? Which series is returned more- 76 or 87/89? Keep in mind the LED versions have likely outsold the bulb versions heavily, especially online, adding to the picture painted here.

2. 89s series LED has PIP (and a couple other things). 87s series does not.

3. ALL tv's are currently doing this- HDMI in = no surround sound out. The hardware (for the LED sets) allows it to be passed but the tv blocks it once it recognizes HDMI as input. HDCP spec apparently allows it to be done if certain conditions are met (certain flags set correctly). Unfortunately it seems no manuf. wants to bother with it at this time- perhaps afraid of lawsuits if everything isn't just right.

I think the bottom line is: no set is perfect. with research, you can reasonably determine the likely pros and cons for each set. get the one with the most pros, or the fewest cons. at the end of the day, it's a relatively small purchase. it's not a house, or even a car.

Quick questions, where can you get the KDS-60A3000 for $1,700?

I think at this point, after a TON of research and looking at the models mentioned, we have come down to consideration of two models of TV:

Sony KDS-60A3000
Samsung HLT6176S

We've pretty much dismissed the LED model at this point after speaking with an acquaintance that has one and reading the following article sent to me by fellow member slamduncan:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/

Our acquaintance that owns the LED model reports some of the same problems as the article does, as well as slight screen bowing, which we went to see this afternoon. The problem was horrendous in my opinion, far worse than he described on the phone, and unwatchable after being spoiled by the perfect geometry of our HLN617W.

This has led us to throw out the LED model, and we have decided to purchase one of the cheap models to hold us over for a couple of years.....until we purchase either an LED or laser.....hopefully after all the bugs have been worked out. At under $1700, both of the models I mentioned are cheap enough so as to not cost us an arm and a leg if they do experience problems and don't work out, and still allow us to purchase a higher-end and higher-priced model in a couple of years when the bugs are ironed out without breaking the bank. We feel this is our best option at this point, and when we do purchase another TV down the road, we'll simply move this current one to the bedroom.

I seem to be forgetting more information than I'm gathering at this point though, since I was under the impression that although the LED models did NOT have PIP, the bulb models from this year DID. I see they are not listed anywhere as having this feature, which kind of upsets us. Since they've been putting the PIP feature into the bulb models since.....well.....our HLN, I would think it would continue. Anyone know why they chose not to include it? We use it all the time!

On another note, I was also curious if anyone could point me to a thread concerning the HDMI audio issue with the Samsung TVs. Since we currently use component video with our satellite receiver, PS3, and 360, then run the audio out to our receiver, I was wondering how, if we get this TV, to get the audio to our receiver since I've read the audio out on the TV will not output audio from the HDMI inputs. This would cause a huge problem for us, since several of our components will not output audio through the optical outs if the HDMI is connected. That would leave us without audio to our receiver if I'm not mistaken, correct? Is the Sony model I mentioned earlier the same way, or is this strictly a Samsung issue due to the HDCP copy protection? Anyone care to comment or point me to a good thread for discussing this?

Anyway, that's all for now.....I'll post back if we come to a decision or find anything else out. In the meantime, any thoughts?


Well, I owned their #1 t.v(Pio 5080), I now own the Sony 60A3000, and the 6187s will be here soon to A/B compare with it.

Hopefully this thread will die now.

Well, on its way to dying I learned that rear projection is dead, and that Pioneer KURO plasmas are the only TVs worth considering.

Well, on its way to dying I learned that rear projection is dead, and that Pioneer KURO plasmas are the only TVs worth considering.

Looks like the end of the line for the KURO as well.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1003092

Sounds to me like aloe vera has way too much information to make an informed decision!

Why do people constantly accuse me of "confusing" the models, or discussions, or this or that? I already (I thought) cleared up that I was well aware of the model #s. I realize you seem to think more LEDs were sold this year, which may well be true, I don't know. But I've been visiting Best Buy and other retail stores regularly all year, and often asking about the two models. Best Buy has rarely had any LED models in stock, and out of the 10 or so stores in our area, only ONE even carries them. The others have to special order......the order time running between 1 and 3 weeks. When asked why this is, the managers have told me that there aren't as many LEDs being made and they do not carry them because they don't sell as well as the bulb models. This would seem to indicate the opposite of your statements. A local high-end store told me the very same thing just the other day. I'd like to see some actual sales numbers to verify the claims that more LEDs were sold, since from what all the "experts" locally say, far more bulb models were produced and sold throughout the year, and many retail stores don't even carry the LED model in-store due to both shortage of product and problems reported with them......this is straight from the managers' mouths as recently as yesterday....

You are right about whiny. It is "This guy" I am having problems with. To the best of my knowledge of the human species, no guy since the beginning of time ever said "Alrighty" (see Post #33).

Well ramazhole, perhaps that is because I am a woman......

Quick questions, where can you get the KDS-60A3000 for $1,700?
No specific price talk is allowed here from what I understand, but look around.....both models I mentioned are available for under the price I mentioned both online and in my town.....

Hopefully this thread will die now.
Hopefully nasty people that like to hurl insults and make fun of legitimate questions will die now.....or at least go away. I have received numerous PMs and e-mails from fellow forum members thanking me for posting and continuing this thread, and urging me to continue to post my experiences with these models, so as long as it is helping my family and others in their search for a quality RPTV we'll be happy with, I could care less what anyone else thinks or posts about me. Isn't that what the "RPTV Forum" is for, anyway? Do you naysayers have to approve of every post and its contents for it to be worthwhile? Other people ARE obviously finding it worthwhile, so if you don't like what we're discussing.......leave! Simple as that. Don't let the door smack you on the way out!

I think I just slipped into a coma.....

Oh, and if a few paragraphs of discussion and a few "large" words is enough to put you into a coma, perhaps you should stick to the Roger Hargreaves collection of books and leave the intelligent forum discussions to us grown folk.......

I just have trouble believing anybody, who seems to go so far out of their way to find something wrong with a product.

This guy is the kind of spoiled, whiny customer that any electronics retail salesman learns to avoid like the plague. What ever he buys is coming back. No matter how good a product it is, no matter how high the quality, this guy will nit pick till he finds something unbelievably minor wrong with it. Real or imagined. The commission on his sale is not worth the hassle. Because you'll be dealing with his gripes for the next year and he'll want his set replaced enough times, you'll think he's rotating your stock.

Convince him that the Wal-Mart down the road has a GREAT sale on 47" Magnavox LCD's and let them deal with his 5th request for a new TV. Your management will thank you for saving the companies bottom line from this particular breed of customer service parasite.

Someone either woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, has anger issues, or has a serious mental disorder! What did I (or whoever you were referencing in that nasty post) do to deserve that vile little rant of yours? What are you even TALKING about?!?! Apparenntly in your opinion no one should do any research at all before making a large purchase.....just buy away and if the product is defective, suffer with it, eh? I'm confused over what we did to incur your wrath? What does doing research before-hand on common problems plaguing a specific model of merchandise you are considering spending your hard-earned money on have to do with never being happy AFTER making a purchase and returning it to the store?!?! Nomal people do this research and discuss these things before making a large purchase so as to NOT have to return anything to the store! Your logic makes absolutely no sense, and sound like the furious ravings of a disgruntled store owner that sells inferior, flaw-ridden merchandise! As I believe I stated earlier in my post, I am a BIG fan of Samsung products, currently own a Samsung HL-N617W, and couldn't be happier with its performance over the years (I forget how many now), since I purchased it shortly after it was released. To be called a "parasite" for simply discussing problems with a specific brand of TV on a forum reserved for such discussion is despicable, and makes me wonder what type of people frequent these forums. Again, if you don't like our discussion, don't participate and take your vile comments elsewhere!

Some people seem to be getting offended and progressively more furious that anything bad is being discussed concerning their precious Samsung LED model, and their comments reek of bias. As I have stated numerous times, I am a Samsung fan as well. That does not, however, mean that I am going to blindly purchase a product based on name alone. Our family, as responsible consumers, research an item before we purchase it. Of course I understand that problems occur in any product line, but from research it seems both Samsung lines have a higher than average level of failure due to bowing and other problems.

We have decided to purchase the less expensive bulb model for several reasons. First, it is $1000 cheaper, so even if it does fail, it won't set us back much and will allow us to upgrade in a couple years when the LED models have their bugs ironed out. Second, the LED has received poor reviews aside from the bowing problems based on picture alone. Third, the bulb models are readily available at a good price, whereas the LED models have to be special ordered.

To everyone that has posted a worthwhile response, thank you VERY much! It is much appreciated! It is nice to see more reasonable, intelligent people than not still reside in these forums........we'll be sure to keep you updated on how things turn out for us. Thank you for all the positive PMs and e-mails everyone!

Sounds to me like aloe vera has way too much information to make an informed decision!

You may be right there! Perhaps I should have just blindly pulled the trigger on a model....would have been much easier and less worrisome! Hopefully the research pays off in the end by not having problems with the model we choose.....

Verbosity run amuck.

Ok, I'm outta of a coma right now. Aloe, it's just the wall-o-words that one has to sift through to get to what it is that you are trying to say, that's all.

Maybe time for pictures rather than more words. Question for Aloe Vera: Do you find the bowing problems on my 56" Samsung LED set, as pictured below, horrendous in your opinion, and unwatchable after being spoiled with what you're used to?

http://members.aol.com/stwtownie/samsungbowing.jpg

Hey man, you're the one who mentioned being able to pick the KDS-60A3000 up for $1,700. I don't see any web sites or stores with it for this much. Please PM me with this info you're withholding, I'd greatly appreciate it.

After reading all this talk about "BOWING", I went home last night, pulled up the tv guide and measured from a line to the bottom and top of the tv. I have No Bowing at all, none, notta, not any, not a hint!!!

We wont ever see oil at $71 a barrel ever again.

I just have trouble believing anybody, who seems to go so far out of their way to find something wrong with a product.

This guy is the kind of spoiled, whiny customer that any electronics retail salesman learns to avoid like the plague. What ever he buys is coming back. No matter how good a product it is, no matter how high the quality, this guy will nit pick till he finds something unbelievably minor wrong with it. Real or imagined. The commission on his sale is not worth the hassle. Because you'll be dealing with his gripes for the next year and he'll want his set replaced enough times, you'll think he's rotating your stock.

Convince him that the Wal-Mart down the road has a GREAT sale on 47" Magnavox LCD's and let them deal with his 5th request for a new TV. Your management will thank you for saving the companies bottom line from this particular breed of customer service parasite.

This had me rolling, nearly split a gut at the truth so well-put. jollly-good. lol Magnavox lol


Mike

Just got my 6187s and there isn't a single issue with the geometry. No bowing whatsoever. The picture is amazing. The set is phenomenal.

I am anal, if there was a flaw I'd post it and figure out how to fix it or I'd send the set back. The only problem I have is my lack of a Blu-Ray player or any decent HD stuff on TV to watch right now. Thank god for my Xbox 360!

I also did a lot of research. You can find issues with anything if you want too. This is simply put the best TV for the price currently on the market - period.

BTW - Mr Know-it-all at Best Buy will probably try to sell you $100 monster cables to go with your new TV. Thats how you know they don't know squat.

BTW - Mr Know-it-all at Best Buy will probably try to sell you $100 monster cables to go with your new TV. Thats how you know they don't know squat.

They are commissioned sales people. It is their job to sell you stuff that has the highest gross profit as they can. And being that Monster has such a high margin, retail stores will generally put spiffs on those items, ie, a bonus if they sell it..........so, it has nothing to do with how much they know or not know. It has everything to do with how much money they want to make.

You may be right there! Perhaps I should have just blindly pulled the trigger on a model....would have been much easier and less worrisome!

Dear Aloe Vera,

No, you shouldn't have to.

Nobody is out to get you or be mean. Guys act here the way they do in the singles bars and the traffic courts: "You got my attention. This better be quick and to the point." What you do reminds us of the moments when we had no choice but to listen to our teachers, mothers and, later, wives. We find it painful.

Here is an example: A woman to a store clerk: Excuse me, can I ask you a question? Clerk: How can I help you? Woman: Would you mind telling me where I can find sugar? Clerk: That will be Isle 10. Woman: Thank you so much! Clerk: You are welcome.

A guy to a store clerk: Where is sugar? Clerk: 10. In this example, neither the guy nor the clerk find anything insulting. We call it efficiency.

Wish you good luck with your purchase.

They are commissioned sales people.

no, they aren't. neither is CC and most of sears.

Aloe Vera,

You need a pen pal to whine to, not advice.

And thus one of the problems with websites. If you don't want to answer the guy's question then don't post.

no, they aren't. neither is CC and most of sears.

If they are not commissioned, than they get spiffs. Believe me, that get some kind of incentive for selling those items that have a high profit margin.

Dear Aloe Vera,

No, you shouldn't have to.

Nobody is out to get you or be mean. Guys act here the way they do in the singles bars and the traffic courts: "You got my attention. This better be quick and to the point." What you do reminds us of the moments when we had no choice but to listen to our teachers, mothers and, later, wives. We find it painful.

Here is an example: A woman to a store clerk: Excuse me, can I ask you a question? Clerk: How can I help you? Woman: Would you mind telling me where I can find sugar? Clerk: That will be Isle 10. Woman: Thank you so much! Clerk: You are welcome.

A guy to a store clerk: Where is sugar? Clerk: 10. In this example, neither the guy nor the clerk find anything insulting. We call it efficiency.

Wish you good luck with your purchase.

So true..........with one caveat. The guy to a store clerk would leave out, "Where is.........". He would just look at the clerk and say, "Suger?"

(and if the clerk was gay, you can only imagine the response :D)

Aloe Vera, I've been following this thread for the past couple of days because I've been considering the same models as you and like you, am overwhelmed with all of the reviews to the point where I can't make a decision.

Not to get off topic but I have to agree iwien and ramazur, we gals can get a little chatty at times.;) But seriously, good luck with your decision and please come back to update us on your purchase.:)

Not to get off topic but I have to agree iwien and ramazur, we gals can get a little chatty at times.;)

A little chatty? :) .

I like that. Kinda like, "Hey, we girls don't sweat. We glisten".:cool:

They are commissioned sales people. It is their job to sell you stuff that has the highest gross profit as they can.

Not to jump on your statement too, but Best Buy employees do not work on commission. The only item they get any kind of commission or incentive to sell is the extended warranty, and that is mere pennies for each one......just FYI. I'm not familiar with the other stores mentioned, but I know I used to avoid CC because they WERE on commission and would tell you anything to make a sale. Perhaps no longer, but I still stay away, LoL.......

And yes, I know I can get a little "chatty", LoL, but what really irked me was to be called a "parasite" because of it. Ridiculous. I personally like it when people that post are thorough. What annoys me most is when someone posts something like:

Thread entitled: Help Me!!!!!!!!!

"I have a Samsung 61". I cant get me HTPC to display on it. What wroi ng? Help me"

I suppose on of the reasons I'm so "chatty" is because when I didn't post each little detail on most forums people see I'm a woman and simply assume I've overlooked the most simple of things. I got in the habit when working with PCs, would be having a problem with a component after building a PC, would post a quick help thread, and would get back responses like "make sure it plugged in, sweetie", LoL. Anyway, sorry if my wordiness bugged you, but you guys can all do with an little extra reading, eh? Eh?

Anyway, a "quick" update on our TV buying status. Went to a local A/V store where I happen to know a manager. Asked what the best price they could get me on several models was, determined to make a decision. This included both Samsungs, the 65" and 73" Mitsubishi (which I saw in store and added to our list), and the Sony 60". Compared PQ and all that. Compared prices. Sat there for 2 hours. Finally decided to go with the 65" Mitsubishi. 4" bigger than our Samsung, insanely cheap in price, seemed sturdily built compared to Samsungs, although the Sony seemed most sturdy, PQ was as good or better (in store) than other models we were looking at. Anyway, ended up getting it in the low-mid 1000's in price, pretty good I figured. At that price I'm planning on making do with it for a couple of years until one of the LED or laser models catches my eye and the bugs have been worked out a bit.

Actually noticed the bulb Samsung was bowing a little in-store while the LED was not, just FYI. Showed the manager the flimsiness of the Samsung frame and he was surprised as well, said he never noticed. On the LED you could actually bounce the screen-covering back and forth about 1/8 inch between the bezel and the screen. Was horrid, but perhaps due to handling. Either way, both Samsungs had a flimsy bezel that could be shifted with the slightest force, although the claim on several reviews that the screen would bow just from pressure on the top bezel seemed to be false. Manager really put a lot of pressure on it and it would not bow. I got scared he was going to break it and made him stop, LoL. In the long run the poor review of the LED turned me off a bit, and just ended up not being able to pass up the price of the Mitsubishi. I had actually gone in pretty much convinced to pull the trigger on the LED, LoL......go figure......

Delivery is on Monday, free I might add......yeah! I'll be sure to come back and let you all know how it turns out and how I like it. The cosmetics of the Mitsubishi leave something to be desired, FYI, as it reminds me of one of the old-school big-screen beasts, but oh well.....it will be concealed in entertainment center anyway......and we'll have 4 extra inches of TV.....

Glad to hear you came to a satisfactory conclusion ! Hopefully it turns out well...

To be honest I was kind of hoping you'd get the samsung LED becuase I'm trying to decide on a new TV also but don't want a 'short term' solution.. plus being in Canada I'm not getting anything that cheap... grumble grumble.. I saw a 52 (I think Samsung LED at costco and it looked good)... I'll wait for the 2008's I guess and hope those turn out nice..

......and we'll have 4 extra inches .....

Always a good thing, no? :cool:

Well hopefully I helped you out a little, anyway. If you want my PERSONAL opinion, and remember, it's just that......if this is a long-term solution for you, I would wait for and purchase the 2008 Samsung LED after a couple months of being out just to make sure no problems crop up. That is what I personally would do. I know it sucks to wait, and you could probably get a Samsung LED you'd be happy with now, but I think it would be worth it to wait a few months and get an improved (I'm sure) model. When you go to see the new ones, check the build quality (the flimsy aspects I mentioned) and report back to let me know what you find. I'm interested to see if Samsung builds a slightly sturdier model this year, or tries to go even thinner at the expense of quality. By doing that this year they lost my business. I mean, my HLN model is ROCK SOLID. If the new ones had been so I'd be a proud owner of a Samsung LED right now. Too bad, because, as I've often said, I'm a Samsung fan.....

Anyway, sorry I couldn't be your guinea pig, LoL, but I wish you luck in the future on your choice. Be sure to come back and at least PM me to let me know what you choose.....I'd be very interested to hear!

To be honest I was kind of hoping you'd get the samsung LED becuase I'm trying to decide on a new TV also but don't want a 'short term' solution.. plus being in Canada I'm not getting anything that cheap... grumble grumble.. I saw a 52 (I think Samsung LED at costco and it looked good)... I'll wait for the 2008's I guess and hope those turn out nice..


Go to Amazon.com, and check out the hands on user reviews of the Samsung 87/89 series. There are over 600 of them. The sets get 4.5 out of 5 stars. You'll see how the vast majority of people think the LED sets are great. There are very few problems reported since the latest firmware updates, and the halo issue had been fixed. Don't judge the set by what a single rag review says, or a $10 an hour salesman. Read what people that actually own the sets say. Someone that shall remain nameless accused me of being a Samsung "fanboy". That could be the farthest from the truth. A few weeks ago, I had nothing but problems with getting Samsung to fix or replace my S Series DLP. I swore never to buy another Samsung product again. After almost 2 months of complaining about my broken TV, I got them to replace it with the HL-T6187. After a few days of adjusting the picture to my tastes, it truly is the best picture I have ever seen on a DLP.

Why do I get the feeling I'm one of the ones you accused of being biased? I'm no different than you. I've been researching tv's several months. Sorry if some of us get the feeling that you asked for advice, but in reality just want reassurance for a decision you had basically already made. You reinforce this when you keep ignoring every single person who tried to tell you the bulb models are more likely to have bowing. No matter what some BB salesman tells you or your personal experience with your friends tv is, this is a fact. You came across as biased or not willing to listen to something you didn't want to hear. I told you I would likely buy the Samsung LED tv myself, but if you wanted a bulb model go with the SONY A3000. I did so based on months of research. I don't see that as biased, but then maybe you weren't talking to me? :confused:

As to the girl thing, get the chip off your shoulder already. Step back, breathe, and consider that maybe you genuinely sounded confused- seeing as how we had NO IDEA you were a girl. Sorry if some people were rude. I have looked at all the same places you mentioned and have not seen tons of info indicating the LED models are prone to bowing. You have to be careful with web reviews that the person isn't reviewing a different model- I HAVE seen tons of this. Add to this the fact that you keep mentioning discussing things with the salespeople in BB and the like. That puts people on alert for BS here, b/c you tend to get very wrong info from BB, CC, etc. I have not personally run into one salesman who had all his info correct about the 87/89 Samsungs (this includes multiple locations of BB, CC, Sears, Frys). I can understand about not wanting to be a guinea pig.

The LED model isn't carried in all BB's (only one's with Magnolia stores around here). Same with CC here in my area- it's only in the stores which are next a Magnolia BB or a Fry's. This is because they are considered high end, probably due to price. Not because they are terrible, or anything a salesman tells you. Of course the bulb models sold more in stores- they are more available and lower priced. Sitting next to a bulb model that looks more or less identical, do you think the avg consumer is going to pay more for the LED version? Especially when the salespeople are so clueless about the pros/cons for it? People are price driven. Most don't think about the $200 bulb replacements down the line, or the color wheel that causes lots of costly repairs for unlucky DLP owners. Color wheels are also noisy. The LED model eliminates both of these. Online, I'd venture the LED heavily outsold the bulb models. I could be wrong. But the main thing you brought up was bowing, and the majority who have owned these sets (and laws of physics) says the bulb models will be more prone to this. But if I were in your situation, where the tv was a stopgap, I'd be inclined to go with a cheaper bulb model as well.

FYI- at CC yesterday (one where LED isn't carried) I had a salesman tell me I didn't want a Samsung LED model because they all had bluish tints causing terrible color accuracy. This due to the LED "bulb" being colored blue instead of white like a traditional bulb. I didn't have the heart/time to tell him there are three LED's in there- red, green, and blue. Or that a diode isn't a bulb. Or that CNET rated it as one of the most color accurate tv's they tested.

I hope your happy with the Mitsubishi. Ironically it seems to get worse reviews on Amazon (esp the 734 models) than any other tv's you were looking at. 7 out of only 25 total gave a one star rating for 65734 model. The 65733 didn't fare any better. I genuinely hope yours works for you. Good luck.

Glad you were finally able to come to a decision. Please let us know how your new set performs.

As for me, I'm going to wait for the new Samsung models to come out next month. If they look good and have decent build quality, I'll probably bite but the problem is I doubt they'll carry them at Costco right away. I prefer buying from them because they extend the manufacturer warranty an extra year and their prices are generally very reasonable.

Justlou/Aloe Vera... good advice all around !

I'm in a can't wait much longer mode... I'm waiting for a new condo (delayed for months) and I've pretty much put off watching movies for a couple of months in anticipation of moving and getting myself a TV as a house warming present. Currently i''ve got a 7 yr old panasonic rp so no hd... no widescreen.. I honestly don't know if I can wait more than a month or so after I move (mid April). Hopefully there will be enough info on the new Samsungs by then. If the wait is going to be several months (I'm in Canada) I'll likely try the 61 dlp after reading personal reviews as Lou suggested.

Anyhow.. thats my (sad) story... glad to get all the info from everyone.

I haven't looked too hard where to see these can be seen in Toronto yet so if anyone knows, let me know. Seeing is believing (or disbelieving) of course.

I have ordered the HLT-5087S LED model. I too am interested to see if there will be any bowing. I think it is hit or miss. Maybe 1 in every 5 or so people get bowing. I will keep you posted. Hope to get the TV this Friday.

Hey Aloe Vera don't get to worked up over the electronics. If you don't like the TV you get send it back. No use stressing out about it you know? It is bad for you to be stressed out about the technology.

These folks are just trying to help you. Be cool! Like cool as in meaning calm down some.

I bet Aaron works "long nights" at the office.

I too am interested to see if there will be any bowing. I think it is hit or miss. Maybe 1 in every 5 or so people get bowing. I will keep you posted.


I would have to respectfully disagree.
I got my 6187sax last friday and I would guess more like 5 out of 5 get bowing....just to different extents. Bigger ths set, better chance for geometry issues with these kind-a-slim cabinets.
I am currently trying to see if mine is fixable by me.
I also believe the ultra-weak frame of the display, which can be twist-flexed quite a bit, come into play.....as that is at least part odf the situation with mine.
The PQ is very good, but not the best I've owned.
Though this is the largest t.v. I've owned.

Mine has no visible bowing what-so-ever. I'll check it with a test pattern and take a picture, but the geometry on mine is outstanding. If there is bowing it is so minor that I can't see it.

So make that 4 out of 5 where I am the unusually lucky 1 ;)

Well, if that is true, then there's no question that I need to call and ask for a replacement then.
That's good to hear, but I would guess you would at least have a very minor amount of off geometry as it basically comes with rptv's using a somewhat slim cabinet.

Mine doesn't have any noticeable bowing. If I were going to measure it with a test pattern, I'd say it's all within a couple of mm. My 61" "S" series DLP had noticeable bowing, but not enough where I bothered to get it serviced.

Do either of you know if AVIA or DVE has geometry test patterns on them. I haven't had time to calibrate my set or check these DVDs out yet so I am not sure how to get a geometry test pattern up on my TV???

I use the ESPN scroll bars for reference right now. I am afraid that if I use a test pattern and find it is off that I'll never stop looking for image distortion in that area!

So is mine busted that I can twist it at the top way too far?
This is what would lead me to believe they would all have at least some bowing.(the weakness of the construction)
I called the big river and was given a replacement request and will hear back tomorrow.

Do either of you know if AVIA or DVE has geometry test patterns on them. I haven't had time to calibrate my set or check these DVDs out yet so I am not sure how to get a geometry test pattern up on my TV???

I use the ESPN scroll bars for reference right now. I am afraid that if I use a test pattern and find it is off that I'll never stop looking for image distortion in that area!


Ahh, yes they do.
Avia has several kinds too.
Run a full board pattern and then if you have no bowing I'll be very optimistic about my replacement.

Do either of you know if AVIA or DVE has geometry test patterns on them. I haven't had time to calibrate my set or check these DVDs out yet so I am not sure how to get a geometry test pattern up on my TV???

I use the ESPN scroll bars for reference right now. I am afraid that if I use a test pattern and find it is off that I'll never stop looking for image distortion in that area!

I don't know. I'm going by the same thing you are. ESPN and CNN tickers, etc.

..If you think it will bother you, stay away from test patterns. ;)

You be the judge - my apologies for my poor tv picture taking skills. I'll figure out that next...

Geometry test 1 - had to use flash on camera
http://www.johnkalnin.com/house/images/6187s-geometry-1.jpg

Geometry test 2 - no flash
http://www.johnkalnin.com/house/images/6187s-geometry-2.jpg

Overscan test
http://www.johnkalnin.com/house/images/6187s-overscan-1.jpg

Looks pretty darn good to me. There is slight fall off on the geometry test on the lower right corner, but it is very minor. There is no bowing as far as I can tell.

Looks good to me too.

Wow nickels55 :eek:
Those pics will be used as reference by me if they ask to send a tech out before replacing.
Wish I had a camera, as mine would give you a good shock/laugh.
That is almost perfect.


**Where is that overscan test pattern from??

The patterns are all on the DVD - Digital Video Essentials. It took a while to find them all, but they are in the advanced calibration section just after the sound tests occur.

On the overscan pattern it does seem that the picture is off-center a few pixels to the right - you can see G goes almost 0 where C only goes to 4.

Ahh, I have Avia.....I'll order DVE today.

http://videoessentials.com/docs/DVE_Consumer_NTSC.pdf

Nice manual to go with DVE.

Hey, I just got mine from amazon yesterday!! 5687s. Mine appears to look like Nickels only opposite- mine slopes upwards slightly to the right. I am going to buy a USB drive so I can throw up some test patterns and check it. Or can you get DVE in any stores cheaper than USB drive? I am guessing mine is off a bit more than nickels55. nickels55 set looks about perfect as far as RPTV geometry goes, imo.

nickels- can you see yours sloping at all during programming? Like bars at bottom during the news?

Mine isn't bad. but I figure for something this expensive I may return it just to see if I can get better one depending on what the test pattern shows. BTW- I see no bowing on mine at all. With my luck though, my replacement will have bowing or be otherwise terrible.

I am very anal about this stuff, and I feel the geometry is flawless when watching my TV. Shows that are letterboxed have no sign of bowing or sloping. ESPN and CNN tickers are straight as an arrow. It is hard for me to complain about the geometry of my set, especially after hearing all of these horror stories.

You can get DVE on amazon (used) for like $13 shipped. I will not recommend it yet as I haven't used it for calibration and tested the results.

Same here, the geometry was the first thing I took a peek at as soon as this thing was out of the box and plugged in, and thankfully, mine is very good as well, its not perf, but pretty darn close, whew! :)

http://www.sounds-of-schils.com/music/pics/Geom_Grid.jpg

Very cool.
Gives me hope for my replacement set.
I 'really' wish I had a digi. to show you guys my pattern. :mad:


I also contacted Eliab and will be getting a calibration on the 24th :)(hopefully I have a set by then that doesn't need to be exchanged)

I am wondering about a mix of information between Avical's site and Samsung's FAQ page. Avical says these DLPs should have 50 hours of working time to break them in before you have them come out to calibrate it. Samsung's site says there is no need for for a break-in period on their sets.

So which is it?

I am anxious to hear what you think about Eliab. That is a lot of money to spend on calibration and I am curious if you'll think it is worth the price once completed.

Get a digital camera already!

Eliab told me he wanted at least 50hrs. on mine before he comes.
Now that I'm spending that much I definitely am not buying a digi right now.
I don't have any kids yet, so I don't take pictures.

Same here, the geometry was the first thing I took a peek at as soon as this thing was out of the box and plugged in, and thankfully, mine is very good as well, its not perf, but pretty darn close, whew! :)

http://www.sounds-of-schils.com/music/pics/Geom_Grid.jpg


Holy Cow :eek:

If that is not perfect, the trouble spots sure ain't showing up in your pictures! Man that makes me want to return mine to try again.

And it's only sloping very minor, up towards the right. It is somewhat noticeable with tickers across the bottom/news bars and stuff, but not enough to bother anyone unless they looked/knew it was there. If you look close in Nickels pictures, his appears to slope down to the right ever so slightly at the bottom (don't know if it does but it looks that way). Mine slopes exact opposite, but it is definitely more noticeable. It's probably right around Samsung limit.

Hey EAGLES, does BR pick up your old set at same time they drop off new? Or will you be without a tv for a week or so?

Holy Cow :eek:

If that is not perfect, the trouble spots sure ain't showing up in your pictures! Man that makes me want to return mine to try again.
Thanks - I should mention that I did also place a small piece of folded up black electric tape and placed it dead center under the 1/2" bezel, I tucked it in there well, where you can't see it, but if need be, I can pull it out with a pair of tweezers - I saw someone else suggest and do this much further back in the now YEAR OLD owners thread, he even threw a couple of shots up showing it done...

I had very good geometry to start with, just figured why not get it perfect, and with such a minor center dip I had, I knew this little trick would do the job, I actually need to take it out and make a smaller piece, if you look very closely, you can see there's a tiny upward pitch to it now (only dead center, just where I placed the tape), lol!

Hey EAGLES, does BR pick up your old set at same time they drop off new? Or will you be without a tv for a week or so?

Same time.

Hey Schills did you put this little folded up black tape in the very top middle? Did this help with the bowing or what did this help you accomplish? I am having the bowing problem, and it goes away when I do the loosen screws a little and turn the TV but when I let the TV go back into position it goes back to the bowing.