Found this interesting. I hope Toshiba lets them go.

Article too long to paste.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSN2651290220080227

Excerpt

"We have a partnership with Toshiba and have an obligation to see this through," DreamWorks Chief Executive Jeffrey Katzenberg said on Tuesday.

"As you know, we have been well-compensated for our support. It really is in their court at this point to really declare what the next step will be. We're poised either way to jump into the marketplace when the conditions are right to do so," he said

Nothing to worry. Dreamworks can refund the contract amount on a prorate basis to Toshiba and get into the Blu-ray track.

Nothing to worry. Dreamworks can refund the contract amount on a prorate basis to Toshiba and get into the Blu-ray track.

Are you a lawyer?

Not meant as a snide comment, was curious on your knowledge of the situation.

"As you know, we have been well-compensated for our support." I found this comment interesting particularly since many on this forum claimed Dreamworks was never compensated and it was just a rumor.

I am neither a lawyer not a liar. Just yet another crap poster in AVS. :D
As Toshiba themselves has pulled out of the HD DVD business it doesn't make sense to keep Paramount/DW contract intact. Analyzing the current situation DW just has to refund some good $ to Toshiba and gracefully terminate their contract.

If I were Dreamworks Animation, and I got paid a large sum (reportedly as high as $100M) for what basically amounts to the rights to two movie releases (Shrek 3 and Bee Movie), I don't think I'd be looking for escape clauses. I'd be counting the money and laughing all the way to the bank when I get to release those titles on Blu-ray whenever the contract expires, since there's no way those two movies together would make anything but a tiny fraction of that sort of money on any high definition format.

If Toshiba were to opt out, of course, that would be a different story.

One rumor I have read is that Paramount/DW is trying to keep more money than Toshiba wants them to keep. This quotation seems consistent with that.

What surprises me is that folks on both sides of the table did not think more about the possibility that HD DVD might fold, leaving a situation that folks would have to extricate themselves from.

It is rather interesting to think of Toshiba and Paramount now having a spat about this.

If I were Dreamworks Animation, and I got paid a large sum (reportedly as high as $100M) for what basically amounts to the rights to two movie releases (Shrek 3 and Bee Movie), I don't think I'd be looking for escape clauses. I'd be counting the money and laughing all the way to the bank when I get to release those titles on Blu-ray whenever the contract expires, since there's no way those two movies together would make anything but a tiny fraction of that sort of money on any high definition format.

If Toshiba were to opt out, of course, that would be a different story.
Agreed

If I were Dreamworks Animation, and I got paid a large sum (reportedly as high as $100M) for what basically amounts to the rights to two movie releases (Shrek 3 and Bee Movie), I don't think I'd be looking for escape clauses. I'd be counting the money and laughing all the way to the bank when I get to release those titles on Blu-ray whenever the contract expires, since there's no way those two movies together would make anything but a tiny fraction of that sort of money on any high definition format.

If Toshiba were to opt out, of course, that would be a different story.

Perhaps Toshiba has exercised their escape clause but Paramount is complaining that they still deserve to be paid.

10,000,000.00 for two titles would be a hell of a lot of money to go against the vast majority of early adopters! Of course if it were me I'd take the money in a heart beat so I don't blame them. They problably read the writing on the wall of blu-ray winning like a lot of us did and just wanted to cash in. :)

Could be that Toshiba was played the fool by MS and Paramount.

Add this one too.

http://images.blahdvd.com/ProductImages/medium/53/14/100000000531453.jpg

http://www.blahdvd.com/blah/HD_Product.aspx/--Cloverfield--?productid=HD-HSP1046-Q5

As a consumer and movie-lover this is getting so tiresome. If high-def never takes off and consumers just start downloading standard lo/def from the Internet, the studios will have nobody but themselves to blame.

My enthusiasm for high-def has just about run out since I got my PS3 last July. How about less bickering and getting some good titles released?

Add this one too.

http://images.blahdvd.com/ProductImages/medium/53/14/100000000531453.jpg

http://www.blahdvd.com/blah/HD_Product.aspx/--Cloverfield--?productid=HD-HSP1046-Q5
Eh?

Cloverfield is controlled by Paramount and/or UPI (Universal joint venture), not Dreamworks Animation.

It is important to note that Dreamworks Animation (headed by Jeffrey Katzenberg) is no longer affiliated with Dreamworks SKG (Spielberg and Geffen) except in name.

The article in the OP is talking about Dreamworks Animation.

Who is this joker? What kind of contract did Paramount sign with Toshiba? Voidable, presumably, but with penalties. I wish I had the specifics.

"As you know, we have been well-compensated for our support."

Buying friends along the way is ripe! ;)
"I'll be your partner. Just pay me $$$!" :D
When money runs out: See yah, wouldn't want to be yah!

Look and Sound of $100,000,000

It is surprising to see Dreamworks Animation come out and use their business deal with Toshiba as an excuse for why they can't currently support Blu-ray. One would think that Dreamworks Animation would have been smart enough to include a clause in their contract in case HD DVD went belly up though as some have speculated it might be some kind of contract dispute. Also their were two differents contracts that Toshiba made with one being for Paramount and Dreamworks SKG ($50 million) and the other being for Dreamworks Animation ($100 million) so they might have different terms.


Perhaps Toshiba has exercised their escape clause but Paramount is complaining that they still deserve to be paid.There are indications that Paramount is canceling future HD DVD titles and going Blu-ray exclusive so I think this issue is only about Dreamworks Animation.

There are indications that Paramount is canceling future HD DVD titles and going Blu-ray exclusive so I think this issue is only about Dreamworks.

I hate to hear comments like XXX going Blu-ray exclusive even after the end of HDM format war. :D

There is only one Hi-Def format and that is Blu-ray. Blu-ray exclusive doesn't make sense at the moment. :D

As a consumer and movie-lover this is getting so tiresome. If high-def never takes off and consumers just start downloading standard lo/def from the Internet, the studios will have nobody but themselves to blame.

My enthusiasm for high-def has just about run out since I got my PS3 last July. How about less bickering and getting some good titles released?

+100

I hate to hear comments like XXX going Blu-ray exclusive even after the end of HDM format war.Wasn't trying to add salt to the wound but that was the simplest way to say what Paramount looks to be planning. Paramount looks to be dropping support for HD DVD at the same time they start support for Blu-ray.

There are indications that Paramount is canceling future HD DVD titles and going Blu-ray exclusive so I think this issue is only about Dreamworks.

It is only Dreamworks Animation. The live action titles are distributed by Paramount.

Buying friends along the way is ripe! ;)
"I'll be your partner. Just pay me $$$!" :D
When money runs out: See yah, wouldn't want to be yah!

Look and Sound of $100,000,000


Bluray....Beyond Buying off Studios:

Warner had no choice but to accept the BDA’s $500 Million offer to go Blu-ray exclusive.

http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/01/04/warner-swayed-by-500-million-from-the-bda/

LMAO!! You're trying to compare some unsubstantiated anonymous source :rolleyes: to an outright admission by the CEO of one of the studios that Toshiba and the hd dvd prg paid off?! :eek:

Wow, that's rich!

Are you a lawyer?

Not meant as a snide comment, was curious on your knowledge of the situation.

I'll take a stab at it. First of all they can always breach. Unless there is a liquidated damages provision in the contract, the amount of an award, should Toshiba actually take them to court which would be highly unlikely, is they would get the full benefit of the contract as if it was performed. Since, Toshiba is going out of the HD DVD business, that value has been significantly diminished. Of course, we'd have to know the specific contractual provisions understand what the basis of the agreement is - so it's impossible to say how good a case they would have or what the claim for damages would be.

There are a number of contractual outs that Dreamworks might be ablte to assert including the doctrine of frustration of purpose. There was a basic assumption on which the contract was made - that is, Toshiba would continue to supply a market with HD DVD players. That was probably a fundamental understanding between the parties. As such, Dreamworks might be able to simply walk away.

Of course, there might also be contractual outs as well. Without reading the black and white, it's really all speculation.

It is surprising to see Dreamworks Animation come out and use their business deal with Toshiba as an excuse for why they can't currently support Blu-ray. One would think that Dreamworks Animation would have been smart enough to include a clause in their contract in case HD DVD went belly up though as some have speculated it might be some kind of contract dispute. Also their were two different contracts that Toshiba made with one being for Paramount and Dreamworks SKG ($50 million) and the other being for Dreamworks Animation ($100 million).


Wasn't trying to add salt to the wound but that was the simplest way to say what Paramount looks to be planning. They look to be dropping support for HD DVD at the same time they start support for Blu-ray.

There are indications that Paramount is canceling future HD DVD titles and going Blu-ray exclusive so I think this issue is only about Dreamworks Animation.Dreamworks SKG and Dreamworks Animation have just less of a catalog of titles available. They just have less movies in their library.

It may make perfect sense for them to hold off on their release until the end of the year or after next Christmas when the size of the Blu-ray installed base of owners is much larger.

They would be perfect "5Q" releases for Jan 2009 where they could do a lot of sales in the 90 days after their release after all the holiday Blu-ray players have been unwrapped.

Plus the get to keep any monies they got.

Even though Toshiba as the sole maker of HD DVD components has said its getting out of that business and HD DVD is de facto dead, until the DVD forum kills it, it may be still considered to be legally alive.

Sounds like some negotiations between Toshiba and Dreamworks are still ongoing.

Looks to me Dreamworks Animations still want their pay even though Toshiba already losing millions.

Bluray....Beyond Buying off Studios:

Warner had no choice but to accept the BDA’s $500 Million offer to go Blu-ray exclusive.

http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/01/04/warner-swayed-by-500-million-from-the-bda/

oh no, not again. The big difference is, that Dreamworks has ADMITTED receiving compensation, while the Warner story is just pure rumor and speculation and has been denied not only by Warner, but by several Insiders on blu-ray.com as well. As has been the unfounded rumor that Fox was close to switching to HD DVD.

Just when I thought it was safe to climb out of the fox hole.:(

They would be perfect "5Q" releases for Jan 2009 where they could do a lot of sales in the 90 days after their release after all the holiday Blu-ray players have been unwrapped.

Plus the get to keep any monies they got.Considering Dreamworks Animation would only miss out on two day and date releases (Bee Movie and Kung Fu Panda) I agree that they might just wait until next spring if they can get something from Toshiba by doing that. At the same time though if they were fine with that I don't think they would have taken this to the press.

oh no, not again. The big difference is, that Dreamworks has ADMITTED receiving compensation, while the Warner story is just pure rumor and speculation and has been denied not only by Warner, but by several Insiders on blu-ray.com as well. As has been the unfounded rumor that Fox was close to switching to HD DVD. Let it go.

It does not matter anymore.

The format war is over, Blu-ray won. ;)

Considering Dreamworks Animation would only miss out on two day and date releases (Bee Movie and Kung Fu Panda) I agree that they might just wait until next spring if they can get something from Toshiba by doing that. At the same time though if they were fine with that I don't think they would have taken this to the press. Bee Movie and Kung Fu Panda will both seem relatively current next December or January. I agree with you.

JP Morgan analyst Barton Crockett said the Blu-ray market was still small although he expected DreamWorks would like to have the issue settled by the 2008 holiday season.

"It might mean they'll lose the opportunity to sell 'Bee Movie' on Blu-ray, although the market for Blu-ray is still pretty small and the offset is that they'd get money from Toshiba, which may in fact be more," Crockett said. "But I'm sure they'll like to have this settled by Christmas." I guess he agrees with both of us too.:D

Bluray....Beyond Buying off Studios:

Warner had no choice but to accept the BDA’s $500 Million offer to go Blu-ray exclusive.

http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/01/04/warner-swayed-by-500-million-from-the-bda/

"Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Let it go.

It does not matter anymore.

The format war is over, Blu-ray won. ;)

WHile I agree with the sentiment, post #21 would have been more appropiate for you to quote methinks. :cool:

What surprises me is that folks on both sides of the table did not think more about the possibility that HD DVD might fold, leaving a situation that folks would have to extricate themselves from.

I think it that both sides thought about this, but Paramount/Dreamworks Animation, wanted a contract that paid them out no matter what happened. Given HDM sales to date and how few titles they have prepared and in their catalog, their part $150 million is a lot of money ($100 million to Dreamworks, $50 million to Paramount), and might even be worth sitting out this year to receive.

It is rather interesting to think of Toshiba and Paramount now having a spat about this.

It would not surprise me if Toshiba was desperate enough when they signed this contract to make fairly lopsided in favor of Paramount/Dreamworks Animation. Paramount's decision maybe based on their much smaller dollar amount and that they already have Blu-ray titles that are ready from which they can immediately start generating revenue.

/carmi

If I were Dreamworks Animation, and I got paid a large sum (reportedly as high as $100M) for what basically amounts to the rights to two movie releases (Shrek 3 and Bee Movie), I don't think I'd be looking for escape clauses. I'd be counting the money and laughing all the way to the bank when I get to release those titles on Blu-ray whenever the contract expires, since there's no way those two movies together would make anything but a tiny fraction of that sort of money on any high definition format.

If Toshiba were to opt out, of course, that would be a different story.

I agree. The amount of money generated from the payoff most likely dwarfed anything the release of the discs generated.

I am certain that any studio who went HD DVD or Blu Ray exclusive in the beginning (not including Universal and Paramount's forced switch at the end) got paid. Neither side was immune from this, it was just business. Anybody who doesn't believe this is wearing some pretty thick blinders:rolleyes:

Pat

Katzenberg made this public statement as proof that they are sticking to there part of the bargain for the compensation they received. At that point there entitled to keep the full amount for however long they were contracted to be hd dvd exclusive. Toshiba would have to say your not bound at this point and allow them to keep the money. Toshiba may have folded up there shop but if DW/SKG stick to the time line then they get to keep it all. Unless we see a 10000% increase this year in HDM sales if DW/SKG has to see it through for the rumored 18 month period then they'll probably come out on top. All they have to do is keep on there emaciated release schedule and they can claim they still stuck to there side of the bargain. IMO.....

This way they can sell the millions of SD versions first, then double-dip the couple hundred thousand BD copies after their obligations are fulfilled. All the while, sitting on a big pile of $$ to keep them company.

I think it's a little funny that EVERYONE has abandoned ship and they still have to hang around for a bit. There is no reason to let them off the hook AND keep the money while cancelling releases as few as they may be.

Maybe I just need a coffee.

IMHO, I can't possibly see how Dreamworks could have possibly signed a contract that would'nt allow them to publish titles on Blu-Ray AND keep ALL of the money in the event that Toshiba calls it quits on HD DVD.

Toshiba says it will stop selling HD DVD completely at the end of March... I expect Dreamworks to announce "officialy" sometime in early April that they are going to release Blu-Ray movies (and I fully expect they will end up keeping every last cent of the dirty filthy whore money they accepted from Toshiba).

There also almost 1 million HD-DVD players in the hands of people with a well documented track record of buying disks. I for one find it silly to drop HD-DVD instantly and slowly start up with Blu. Sure it is discontinued, still a lot of people who will still pick up titles. And if the work was already done, why throw all that away. Maybe they want to wait and see if 2.0 actually works as advertised....

IMHO, I can't possibly see how Dreamworks could have possibly signed a contract that would'nt allow them to publish titles on Blu-Ray AND keep ALL of the money in the event that Toshiba calls it quits on HD DVD.

Toshiba says it will stop selling HD DVD completely at the end of March... I expect Dreamworks to announce "officialy" sometime in early April that they are going to release Blu-Ray movies (and I fully expect they will end up keeping every last cent of the dirty filthy whore money they accepted from Toshiba).

Agree with what your saying but to me the Katzenberg interview seems that he is wanting for Toshiba to say uncle then they get to keep it all legally. If not then they'll ride it out and they still keep it all... Definately hope that Toshiba just lets it go... Not that I'm in a hurry to see the Bee movie, Shrek but other Titles like Wallace and Grommitt, Chicken Run, Flushed Away, Over the hedge.... and of course some movies with real people would be must buys......

I think it's smart on Dreamworks part. Sitting around selling SD DVD's, perhaps some HD DVD's, all while enjoying the monies they received from their deal with Toshiba. If they did in fact receive the rumored amount, that is much more than they will make selling HDM. Also, they can quietly produce Blu Ray's for future release.

To put it all in perspective, the Dreamworks Animation catalog is very, very small. About the same size as the Pixar catalog (a dozen or so titles), and nowhere near as influential.

Whether they release on Blu-ray today, tomorrow, or next year makes very little difference as far as the overall health of HDM, so if they can keep the $100M or whatever they did/are getting paid, more power to them.

I suspect that Toshiba is looking for a loophole to extract themselves from the contract; that Katzenberg has made any comments at all suggests that the agreement is fairly airtight, and not in Toshiba's favor in this scenario.

Most likely they're trying to renegotiate the contract, and Paramount is just sending a very clear signal that they are willing to sit it out and cash the cheque. Toshiba is the one who will get the blame for not letting them out of their contract after one-sidedly pulling the plug on the players.

How can Dreamworks be forced to release on a format that Toshiba themselves pulled the plug on? WTF?! If they're still locked into their deal then Jeffrey is about the dumbest rich lawyer out there IMNSHO.

I hate to hear comments like XXX going Blu-ray exclusive even after the end of HDM format war. :D

There is only one Hi-Def format and that is Blu-ray. Blu-ray exclusive doesn't make sense at the moment. :D

Don't be so sure about that. A smart house might just keep releasing the already coded HD DVDs for quite some time. Costs them little, gets them lots more sales.

I think you are missing the point. Dreamworks doesn't want to be released from their contract. It is very favorable to them. They rather stay in contract and keep the money from Toshiba. And if they have to be released, they want to keep the money already paid.

Blu-ray market is small enough and their catalog small enough, that they have no urgent need to switch to Blu-ray right away.

How can Dreamworks be forced to release on a format that Toshiba themselves pulled the plug on? WTF?! If they're still locked into their deal then Jeffrey is about the dumbest rich lawyer out there IMNSHO.

I think it's pretty clear that they won't make $67 million profit (based on an estimated 18 month deal for $100 million which still has about 12 months left on it) by releasing 2-4 animated movies on Blu-ray before their 18 month deal ends in about 12 months. They want Toshiba to buy out the rest of the contract and pay them a portion of the remaining approx. $67 million in the process.

I think it's smart on Dreamworks part. Sitting around selling SD DVD's, perhaps some HD DVD's, all while enjoying the monies they received from their deal with Toshiba. If they did in fact receive the rumored amount, that is much more than they will make selling HDM. Also, they can quietly produce Blu Ray's for future release.

Hi,

I find it very difficult to believe that Toshiba handed over any cash to Dreamworks in advance. No, I'm not claiming that Toshiba didn't commit $100 million to Dreamworks for them to release exclusively in HD DVD. However, that commitment would have surely been in advertising and/or replication subsidies, etc. It would never have been cold, hard cash paid upfront.

Now Dreamwork's lawyers see a remaining legal commitment to Toshiba, and Dreamwork's marketing folks see a market of 1,000,000 players for which they will not have to pay for advertising and/or replication costs. They stand to make more profit releasing to that market than being released from their commitment and marketing to Blu-ray owners with an added increment of marketing/production costs.

The problem is that now that Toshiba has left the playing field there is no business incentive for them to continue to pay these costs. Nevertheless, they are still liable for the subsidies, provided Dreamworks is still willing to continue to exclusively release on HD DVD for a short time.

My guess is that Toshiba will release Dreamworks from their commitment, but they will have throw in some cash to make Dreamworks go away quietly. Unfortunately, that will mean that my preorder for Bee Movie will never be fullfilled by Amazon.com.

Larry

Looks to me Dreamworks Animations still want their pay even though Toshiba already losing millions.

If I got paid $150 million for 18 months.... I would try to stick to that contract as long as I can.

You figure thats about 5 million+ per big release(since reissues dont make much at all). I doubt they would make that much profit on a Blu-ray disc... at least at this time.

Even if you figure that $150 million is in advertising, with "Now available on DVD and High Definition HD-DVD" at the end... thats still money that paramount doesnt have to spend. IE its money in their pockets.

Once again, just for the record. This article is about Dreamworks ANIMATION. It has nothing to do with Paramount/Dreamworks SKG.

The only movie that was released by Dreamworks animation was Shrek III. The only other release they had slated was Bee Movie.

This is a non issue. As far as I am concerned, they can sit on the side lines as long as they would like.

Becaue there seems to be some confusion, Dreamworks Animation got the lionshare of the payoff (~$100 million), they have a small catalog and a small planned release slate. Toshiba isn't holding them hostage, it's DW Animation that wants to hold Toshiba to future payment installments, so they are making a bit of a stink to bring Toshiba to the table to negotiate.

I find it very difficult to believe that Toshiba handed over any cash to Dreamworks in advance. No, I'm not claiming that Toshiba didn't commit $100 million to Dreamworks for them to release exclusively in HD DVD. However, that commitment would have surely been in advertising and/or replication subsidies, etc. It would never have been cold, hard cash paid upfront.

I doubt it was cash paid upfront otherwise, Jeffery would have the money already. I is cash paid over the duration of the eighteen month contract. Otherwise there is no way that one can hit $100 million. Dreamworks Animation's catalog has between 8 and 16 films in it (depending on whether they own those films made before they separated or not), so there is simply no way that any subsidies for their at most 4 films to be released during this period could hit that number.

Now Dreamwork's lawyers see a remaining legal commitment to Toshiba, and Dreamwork's marketing folks see a market of 1,000,000 players for which they will not have to pay for advertising and/or replication costs. They stand to make more profit releasing to that market than being released from their commitment and marketing to Blu-ray owners with an added increment of marketing/production costs.

Toshiba has stated that they sold 750,000 players worldwide. Given that many of those people either own multiple players, bought them at a huge discount not necessarily intending to buy HD DVD content and/or also own Blu-ray players, and that almost no retail establishment will be carrying new HD DVD discs, there is very little profit to be made, relative to selling on Blu-ray during Dads/Grads and Christmas 2008.

Even at 50% penetration with a profit of $40 per title that is only $15 million (impossible numbers). Much more likely numbers would be under 10% penetration at under $20 profit for around $1,500,000.

He wants the cash he was promised and figures that it will be greater than what he would earn from selling Blu-ray discs. Even if he has to wait until January to release Blu-ray films, he will do better as most everything he has are catalog titles and not even many of those.

/carmi

Don't be so sure about that. A smart house might just keep releasing the already coded HD DVDs for quite some time. Costs them little, gets them lots more sales.

I'm sure already pressed titles will get released, but shipping reasonable quantities of new titles just because you mastered them may actually lose money in the coming months.

I'm not sure what the sell-through rate is on major HD DVD titles at this point, but it will clearly be shrinking. No one will be selling HD DVDs in B&M stores in another quarter or so, so if you can't sell through your first pressing in 3-4 months you could end up with lots of stock being sent back.

Of course major (temporary) exclusives like American Gangster will sell enough (50K+) to make it worthwhile, but I bet we see a lot of smaller titles drop off the slate (or simply never get announced). It's better to eat the cost of the authoring then to press 40k disks, ship them and market them, then have to take 35k back in 4 months and destroy them.

If the online market (Amazon, DVD Empire, etc) is large enough we may see small pressings (10k - 20k) for a while after the B&M stores give up the HD DVD ghost, but I don't know how long that will last, and frankly such liited press runs will be have to be sold for more to make the profit generated worth the effort of authoring, distributing, etc.

As a consumer and movie-lover this is getting so tiresome. If high-def never takes off and consumers just start downloading standard lo/def from the Internet, the studios will have nobody but themselves to blame.

My enthusiasm for high-def has just about run out since I got my PS3 last July. How about less bickering and getting some good titles released?

No kidding! Im with ya.... there are soooooo many good titles just sitting in the vaults that should be on HD media that arent... drives me crazy! :mad:

Instead we get comedies, sappy dramas, or old 80's flicks that suck even more now than they did when they came out. Freegin sucks.:(

HD DVD might be dead, but is not ready to be buried yet.

I'm sure already pressed titles will get released, but shipping reasonable quantities of new titles just because you mastered them may actually lose money in the coming months.

I'm not sure what the sell-through rate is on major HD DVD titles at this point, but it will clearly be shrinking. No one will be selling HD DVDs in B&M stores in another quarter or so, so if you can't sell through your first pressing in 3-4 months you could end up with lots of stock being sent back.

Of course major (temporary) exclusives like American Gangster will sell enough (50K+) to make it worthwhile, but I bet we see a lot of smaller titles drop off the slate (or simply never get announced). It's better to eat the cost of the authoring then to press 40k disks, ship them and market them, then have to take 35k back in 4 months and destroy them.

If the online market (Amazon, DVD Empire, etc) is large enough we may see small pressings (10k - 20k) for a while after the B&M stores give up the HD DVD ghost, but I don't know how long that will last, and frankly such liited press runs will be have to be sold for more to make the profit generated worth the effort of authoring, distributing, etc.


Or some enterprising clown like me might buy the rights and sell them on the internet. I am not talking new releases just more of those already released.

B&M is so yesterday.

Relevant to this--Last year was Dreamworks Animation's best year ever.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=12185


DreamWorks Animation Reports Best Year Ever
Author: CHRIS TRIBBEY
ctribbey@questex.com
Posted: February 26, 2008
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DreamWorks Animation SKG reported its best year ever in a fourth-quarter and year-end earnings call with investors Feb. 26. However, CEO Jeffrey Katzenberg delivered a note of caution.

“As we anticipated, the home video market was extremely competitive this past quarter, as an unprecedented number of summer blockbusters were all released into a very crowded market,” he said. “It is clear that the clutter, as well as competition at retail from other sources such as video games, has had an impact on the overall home video market.”

Shrek the Third shipped 15.6 million DVD units worldwide, DreamWorks president and CFO Lew Coleman said, and the movie was the fourth-best performing animated movie of all time, taking in more than $800 million at the worldwide box office. The franchise overall has earned more than $2.1 billion in theaters worldwide.

But if DreamWorks’ next slate of titles is to do as well, they need to stand out, Katzenberg said.

“I believe good content can arise above the clutter,” he said, noting that consumers have more options than ever with video on demand and Internet downloading. “It is our job as filmmakers to continue to create compelling content that will be in high demand as these new platforms gain popularity.”

DreamWorks capped off a successful year with fourth-quarter (ended Dec. 31) total revenue of $290 million, and net income of $94 million. Mostly thanks to DVD sales of the third “Shrek” film, the ogre and friends contributed $179 million of that. For the year, the studio earned net income of $218 million, and generated revenue of $767 million.

DVD and international TV sales of the 2006 film Over the Hedge contributed $13 million for the quarter (with 15 million DVD units shipped worldwide for the year), while Flushed Away had shipped 6.5 million DVD units through the end of the year and contributed $8 million for the fourth quarter.

Looking toward the first quarter of 2008, and the year as a whole, DreamWorks is banking on the home video promises that 2007’s Bee Movie holds ($285 million at the worldwide box office), and the theatrical, and eventual home video, success of the June release of Kung Fu Panda.

“Our full-year 2008 performance will be largely dependent on the success of Kung Fu Panda,” Coleman said.

DreamWorks also announced changes to its 2009 and 2010 theatrical plans. The 3-D film Monsters vs. Aliens will be released as scheduled in March 2009. However, How to Train Your Dragon will be moved to March 2010 and will be followed by the fourth “Shrek” movie, Shrek Goes Fourth, in May 2010. DreamWorks 2010 slate wraps up with MasterMind in November.

Katzenberg said "well compensated". Given there are factory lines shut down over Toshiba's exit, I am surprised if Toshiba will continue to pay for the Bee Movie. Perhaps Katzenberg wants Toshiba to stick to the letter of the contract and pay up, which would be an interesting conundrum, since I don't envision a scenario where Toshiba will want to continue paying. :D

B&M is so yesterday.

Not compared to HD-DVD it isn't.

I'm pretty sure the rights plus the costs for a duplicator to keep a line reserved for HD-DVD with such minuscule demand would make the costs per disc astronomical.

Who is this joker? What kind of contract did Paramount sign with Toshiba? Voidable, presumably, but with penalties. I wish I had the specifics.

Katzenberg is presumably the bean counter end of the Spielberg-Katzenberg-Geffen trinity that makes up the S.K.G. in Dreamworks SKG. They founded the company. Katzenberg used to be in Disney but was refused promotion to the #2 spot by Eisner after Frank Wells died in a chopper crash, there were forced resignations, lawsuits. Katzenberg won $250M from Disney, so once he smells money, there's just no way he's going to let it go without putting up a fight.

Which is why he counts beans in Dreamworks these days.

I'll take a stab at it. First of all they can always breach. Unless there is a liquidated damages provision in the contract, the amount of an award, should Toshiba actually take them to court which would be highly unlikely, is they would get the full benefit of the contract as if it was performed. Since, Toshiba is going out of the HD DVD business, that value has been significantly diminished. Of course, we'd have to know the specific contractual provisions understand what the basis of the agreement is - so it's impossible to say how good a case they would have or what the claim for damages would be.

There are a number of contractual outs that Dreamworks might be ablte to assert including the doctrine of frustration of purpose. There was a basic assumption on which the contract was made - that is, Toshiba would continue to supply a market with HD DVD players. That was probably a fundamental understanding between the parties. As such, Dreamworks might be able to simply walk away.

Of course, there might also be contractual outs as well. Without reading the black and white, it's really all speculation.

He is definitely a lawyer! I couldn’t understand a thing he said but it definitely sounded important!

LMAO!! You're trying to compare some unsubstantiated anonymous source :rolleyes: to an outright admission by the CEO of one of the studios that Toshiba and the hd dvd prg paid off?! :eek:

Wow, that's rich!


Regardless of source, it's pretty obvious that aside from the BD group and HD-DVD groups own strategies, almost every move made in the format war was a result of being paid. This includes decisions to go exclusive, decisions to carry one format over the other, decisions to recommend one format over the other, etc.

Consumers probably had about at 10% say in which way the format war went. We all knew this from the beginning.

Both sides tried to throw dollars. One side threw more. It was foolish of Toshiba to think that karma and riteousness alone would decide the win in their favor.

If you think about it long term, it's a wise decision by Dreamworks Animation to stay. Paramount took the money and ran. Dreamworks is at least saying they will stay the course until it's up or Toshiba lets them go. Relationship building 101 here. Anything that comes down in the future from Toshiba that needs studio backing, they'll look to Dreamworks because they are a good partner. It's amazing that most people can't see past the $$ signs these days.

Just when I thought it was safe to climb out of the fox hole.:(

What? Are you too good for your hole?

I think Toshiba was dumb for coming out and saying that they thought about suing Warner, but decided it didn't make sense to take on a US studio like that, when they still had outstanding issues with Paramount and Dreamworks Animation, or at least one of them. That kind of thing would just embolden those studios in a dispute, figuring that Toshiba wouldn't want to go to court with them about HD DVD either.

The way I see it is that if the contract says that Dreamworks Animation keeps getting paid some cash until the end of 2008 for staying HD DVD exclusive, then people who get paid to work for DA have a certain obligation to their shareholders to continue to abide by their side of the contract and force Toshiba to abide by their side of the contract (or offer a payoff amount to void the rest of it), as long as that would make more for DA than canceling the contract. Toshiba shouldn't have been naive enough to think they could just cancel the contract and not pay the rest of the money due, unless the contract said that they could.
oh no, not again. The big difference is, that Dreamworks has ADMITTED receiving compensation, while the Warner story is just pure rumor and speculation and has been denied not only by Warner, but by several Insiders on blu-ray.com as well. As has been the unfounded rumor that Fox was close to switching to HD DVD.There has been a certain amount of deception going on there. For instance, Fox was negotiating with Toshiba. Maybe they weren't doing it in good faith and were really deceiving Toshiba about being open to releasing on HD DVD, but they were negotiating with them. People who say Fox wasn't negotiating with Toshiba either don't know, or are trying to deceive. And some seem to have used spin words to try to keep people from realizing that Fox was negotiating with Toshiba.

And my info is that Warner was compensated for going to Blu-ray exclusive (just as is natural, as both sides wanted them and this is business, not tiddly-winks). I'm of course not going to give the path to that info, but I am confident in it. I have not seen Warner come out and deny any compensation in a way that would get them in trouble in court, just the kind of wording that makes some people think they didn't get any compensation, but leaves the door open enough to not get in any legal trouble for lying. Words like "I wish" imply a denial, but don't cause the legal problems that something definitive like, "We did not sign to get any compensation for going Blu-ray exclusive" would. And some of the other stuff from Warner about not jeopardizing their multi-billion dollar market don't mean that they didn't get compensated, but that they chose a side based on going with the side that could win quickly. Much like a star quarterback going to a team that he thinks has a good chance of win the Super Bowl doesn't mean the quarterback doesn't get paid.

--Darin

If you think about it long term, it's a wise decision by Dreamworks Animation to stay. Paramount took the money and ran. Dreamworks is at least saying they will stay the course until it's up or Toshiba lets them go. Relationship building 101 here. Anything that comes down in the future from Toshiba that needs studio backing, they'll look to Dreamworks because they are a good partner. It's amazing that most people can't see past the $$ signs these days.Trying to force Toshiba to pay the rest of the contract after Toshiba already dropped the format isn't being a good partner. It is looking out for yourself (and your shareholders). If anything, forcing Toshiba to pay the rest would make others more careful when signing contracts with Dreamworks Animation. I have little doubt that Toshiba would like to just cancel the whole thing and not have to pay another cent to DA, at this point.

--Darin

My take on this is that Dreamworks has a lot of ways to exit the contract, including invoking the "Warners went Blu-ray" clause that we understand is there.

The issue is clearly that Dreamworks wants more money. Yesterday's statement is their way of saying that they intend to honor their part of the contract and want to continue to be paid accordingly.

Toshiba very likely wants to wash their hands of all of this, and wants it done by March 31 when their fiscal ends.

Basically, Dreamworks is executing a hold-up play: pay us for dropping the deal or we will continue it and keep collecting.

What will happen? My guess is that a deal will be fashioned shortly. By going public with it, Dreamworks is clearly saying that they are waiting for something from Toshiba.

My father used to say, don't do business with someone who will screw someone else. Sooner or later, they will screw you.

If you think about it long term, it's a wise decision by Dreamworks Animation to stay. Paramount took the money and ran. Dreamworks is at least saying they will stay the course until it's up or Toshiba lets them go. Relationship building 101 here. Anything that comes down in the future from Toshiba that needs studio backing, they'll look to Dreamworks because they are a good partner. It's amazing that most people can't see past the $$ signs these days.


If you think this is nothing more than an attempt at a money grab by Dreamworks Animation, THAT would be amazing.

They have no possible way of making the amount of money(from Blu Ray) they will get from Toshiba in the next year. Impossible. This way they can have the best of both worlds. Get money from Toshiba for the next month(or a settlement) and release on Blu Ray when Toshiba denies payment.

Its a win/win for Dreamworks Animation.

Let it go.

It does not matter anymore.

The format war is over, Blu-ray won. ;)

While the format war is definitely over and Blu-Ray is the only one still standing it remains to be seen just what they have "won".

Aside from some early-adopters with deep pockets and some video game enthusiasts Blu-Ray still has a long way to go (at least in North America) before it can truly be said that they have "won".

I suppose that you can say, Blu-Ray has won the first significant battle of a larger war (which still has a few years to go).

And while I am one of the first to voice the opinion that a lower priced player is needed for Blu-Ray to really take off. There is one other thing needed as well.

Popular catalog releases.

Blu-Ray is still missing out on the punch the format would receive if they could show films like, the Star Wars saga, Indiana Jones, The Godfather movies, the whole Disney library of titles, the "good" Shrek films, and many, many others in "full Hi-Def" glory.

Just a few releases of that caliber could have made a huge difference in the 2007 x-mas season.

For example, if just the Indiana Jones films had been released on HD DVD last fall, that format might still be going strong today (barring rumored studio pay-offs and other possible back room deals by the BDA) ;)

For the BDA though, having these titles available "now" would help "soften the blow" of having to shell out $400+ for a media player for a fair percentage of people still on the fence over Blu-Ray.

Hopefully the studios will commit to releasing at least some of these "classic mega-hits" to Blu-Ray sooner rather than later.

If you think this is nothing more than an attempt at a money grab by Dreamworks Animation, THAT would be amazing.

They have no possible way of making the amount of money(from Blu Ray) they will get from Toshiba in the next year. Impossible. This way they can have the best of both worlds. Get money from Toshiba for the next month(or a settlement) and release on Blu Ray when Toshiba denies payment.

Its a win/win for Dreamworks Animation.

If that is the case, then it would simply be a smart business move.

Although, if that is true I have to wonder why Paramount didn't do the exact same thing since it is highly unlikely that they could earn enough in revenue from Blu-ray releases over the next year to equal what they were reportedly being paid to remain HD-DVD exclusive.

That is unless they are planning some really "big" releases for later this year...

(The original Indy Trilogy to go with film #4's Blu-Ray release this Christmas, anyone?)

:D

...hrm, for those in Toronto it's like Sundin, sorta... Dreamworks is exercising its "no-trade" clause...

I think it naive to assume there's a wad of cash that traded hands, anymore than to assume all this was done out of kindness... It's clear that maintaining exclusivity for their small number of products means they're now, um, the big bee in a small pond, as it were... In the short term will they in fact lose -less- releasing on HD-DVD with this subsidies intact then in fairly competing against Pixar, Fox Animation, etc? With no rush to BD given the size of the market, and with little economic incentive for HDM versions of their discs compared to the fine success they're still having with SD, why not ply all they can from Tosh? It's not like a May 2008 release of Shrek 3 will sell more than a November 2008 (or 09?) release...

Toshiba still has a lot of hardware to sell, and exclusive movies can only help them. So why would they release Dreamworks from the contract without compensation? Like anyone else, in the end they care about profits.

Toshiba still has a lot of hardware to sell, and exclusive movies can only help them. So why would they release Dreamworks from the contract without compensation? Like anyone else, in the end they care about profits.

It is not Toshiba not releasing Dreamworks but rather Dreamworks wanting Toshiba to buy them out of the contract. Toshiba does not want the arrangement to continue.

It is not Toshiba not releasing Dreamworks but rather Dreamworks wanting Toshiba to buy them out of the contract. Toshiba does not want the arrangement to continue.

These are rather equivalent here (since a contract is a mutual deal), no?

Toshiba refuses to let Dreamworks out of its obligations without canceling in exchange their own financial obligations. And Toshiba still has some benefits from the exclusivity. So why would they let Dreamworks go as long as they are sitting on HD DVD players? Exclusivity sells. And $100 from selling one more player is $100 less in losses. What would they care about the average HDM fan who wants the movies on the winning format?

Regardless of source, it's pretty obvious that aside from the BD group and HD-DVD groups own strategies, almost every move made in the format war was a result of being paid. This includes decisions to go exclusive, decisions to carry one format over the other, decisions to recommend one format over the other, etc.

Other than knowing this a priori, do you have any evidence? Disney, and Fox were most concerned about content protection BD+ and ROM Mark offered them something that HD DVD did not. Warner went neutral because Sony's inclusion of Blu-ray in their Playstation 3 ensured there would be a substantial market for their content. Same for Paramount.

Warner's switch to Blu-ray exclusive was the only move that had a substantial likelihood of ending this conflict, a goal that was clearly important to them (as a move to HD DVD exclusive would have just kept things split). No other financial motive was necessary.

Until someone can prove that these studios were paid to act in what they clearly perceive was their own interest, I will use Occam's Razor and accept that.

Consumers probably had about at 10% say in which way the format war went. We all knew this from the beginning.

I keep hearing HD DVD supporters say this, but they provide no evidence. HD DVD players were artificially less expensive, but many more Blu-ray players were still sold. On dual format titles, consumers choose to buy Blu-ray over HD DVD by a 50% margin for most of last year (60-40). It was that margin that convinced Warner that their move could end this battle. Seems like much more than a 10% say to me.

Both sides tried to throw dollars. One side threw more. It was foolish of Toshiba to think that alone would decide the win in their favor.

The first studio with a contractual obligation to be exclusive was Universal, and the first company to provide subsidized hardware was Toshiba (the only non-console vendor to do so.

It is hard to argue that they felt "karma and riteousness[sic]" would decide things their way.

/carmi

There also almost 1 million HD-DVD players in the hands of people with a well documented track record of buying disks. I for one find it silly to drop HD-DVD instantly and slowly start up with Blu. Sure it is discontinued, still a lot of people who will still pick up titles. And if the work was already done, why throw all that away. Maybe they want to wait and see if 2.0 actually works as advertised....

Your well documented track records are based on the fact that HD-DVD was still alive, it is dead now.
Having said that, 100M still more than dwarfed Dreamwork Animations revenues for blu-ray+HD_DVD, given only 1 movie they plan to release.

Until someone can prove that these studios were paid to act in what they clearly perceive was their own interest, I will use Occam's Razor and accept that.



Let's see...

HD-DVD already had the infrastructure in place to allow for greatly increased production of media vs. Blu-Ray which still can not support a massively increased (say 500%+) for media between now and Q4 of '08.

HD-DVD had just experienced a huge increase in hardware sales (which hadn't had time to impact the software numbers) when Warner made their announcement.

Logically, Warner should have waited until at least the end of Q1 '08 to see if the surge in HD DVD hardware sales had any significant impact on the media numbers before making any "final" decisions regarding format exclusivity.

However they did not.

Occam's Razor ("All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.") would indicate to me at least, that the "simplest" answer is that the studio received a payoff of some sort by Sony or other members of the BDA in order to nudge them off the fence.

After all, Toshiba did the exact same thing with Paramount/Dreamworks just six months earlier. What works for one company works equally well for another.

Just business as usual.

HD-DVD had just experienced a huge increase in hardware sales (which hadn't had time to impact the software numbers) when Warner made their announcement.


You should go back and reconstruct the post-Christmas events. HD DVD ran a huge BOGO to prove their potential software sales. After that, BD ran a completely similar BOGO. What more do you need than these sales data? Why would anyone think that Q1 sales (with all the influences of new releases etc) are more relevant than 2 nearly identical BOGOs ran one after another? HD DVD had its chance to prove its point then and there, and didn't. Its hardware surge was simply less than that of BD.

:D
www.thedigitalbits.com

amazing.... seems he wants the full pay off before leaving for blu ray :)

This is getting out of hand fellas. Its over. I feel like I am reading a 3 month old thread.

It is clear that while Dreamworks could void the contract it is not in their interest to do so and that Toshiba did not leave itself similar "outs". So rather than release Bee Movie on BD and sell 6,000 copies it is going to see how much of that 100M it can keep. Understand, that is a LOT of $ for a relatively small studio, even if it is just promotional marketing money. I think the highest profitability for any studio I saw for last year was 1.1B for Warner for 2007 (please don't ask for a link though). Clearly 500M for them is a monster windfall (presuming facts not in evidence). I am sure the Dreamworks Animation contract is a similar portion of their annual profits and is decidedly worth fighting for.

Well yeah, wouldn't you?

yeah why would you piss millions away and not
wait so you get the most you can?

Other than knowing this a priori, do you have any evidence? Disney, and Fox were most concerned about content protection BD+ and ROM Mark offered them something that HD DVD did not. Warner went neutral because Sony's inclusion of Blu-ray in their Playstation 3 ensured there would be a substantial market for their content. Same for Paramount.

Warner's switch to Blu-ray exclusive was the only move that had a substantial likelihood of ending this conflict, a goal that was clearly important to them (as a move to HD DVD exclusive would have just kept things split). No other financial motive was necessary.

Until someone can prove that these studios were paid to act in what they clearly perceive was their own interest, I will use Occam's Razor and accept that.



I keep hearing HD DVD supporters say this, but they provide no evidence. HD DVD players were artificially less expensive, but many more Blu-ray players were still sold. On dual format titles, consumers choose to buy Blu-ray over HD DVD by a 50% margin for most of last year (60-40). It was that margin that convinced Warner that their move could end this battle. Seems like much more than a 10% say to me.



The first studio with a contractual obligation to be exclusive was Universal, and the first company to provide subsidized hardware was Toshiba (the only non-console vendor to do so.

It is hard to argue that they felt "karma and riteousness[sic]" would decide things their way.

/carmi

Excellent post!

Let's see...

....

HD-DVD had just experienced a huge increase in hardware sales (which hadn't had time to impact the software numbers) when Warner made their announcement.

Actually, according to Toshiba, Blu-ray standalone players out sold HD DVD players even during this "huge increase", a number that was still dwarfed by Playstation 3 consoles in the field. Toshiba would have needed to substantially beat Blu-ray in standalone sales (probably by more than 2-1) for there to have been any hope of changing software sales numbers in a meaningful way.

Logically, Warner should have waited until at least the end of Q1 '08 to see if the surge in HD DVD hardware sales had any significant impact on the media numbers before making any "final" decisions regarding format exclusivity.

Why? Even this surge left HD DVD behind by a large margin. Warner's goal was to end this conflict as quickly as possible. They might have decided differently if Toshiba had really beaten Blu-ray, but with Blu-ray's lead (among standalone players) continuing to grow even with Toshiba's fire sale prices, why should they have expected anything different? Making an announcement at CES would have maximum impact and would be most likely to end things. An announcement 3 months later would have a much smaller impact.

Occam's Razor ("All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.") would indicate to me at least, that the "simplest" answer is that the studio received a payoff of some sort by Sony or other members of the BDA in order to nudge them off the fence.

How is it simpler to think that a pay off is more logical than Warner's self interest in ending this conflict? Again, as we can see from what actually happened, Warner's actions alone were enough to ensure that this was the result. To believe that Toshiba's inability over the holidays to even match Blu-ray standalone sales with their fire sale prices could have had any other result one would have to believe that people who bought players for $99 were likely to buy so many HD DVD movies that they'd dwarf sales to those who were likely paying 2-3 times more.

After all, Toshiba did the exact same thing with Paramount/Dreamworks just six months earlier. What works for one company works equally well for another.

Toshiba had to pay Paramount and Dreamworks Animation to act against their own interests (or better, had to pay them so that it would be in their interest to give up their much larger Blu-ray sales). That is not true for Warner and the BDA.

/carmi

If that is the case, then it would simply be a smart business move.

Although, if that is true I have to wonder why Paramount didn't do the exact same thing since it is highly unlikely that they could earn enough in revenue from Blu-ray releases over the next year to equal what they were reportedly being paid to remain HD-DVD exclusive.

That is unless they are planning some really "big" releases for later this year...

(The original Indy Trilogy to go with film #4's Blu-Ray release this Christmas, anyone?)

:D

Its very possible that Transformers, Iron Man, and the new Indiana Jones could sell 1 million discs each by the end of the year, at $25 a disc thats $75 million in sales (not all profit). They have a good chance to make more than the $50 million they were paid (which some must have already been paid).

Dreamworks Animation has will have 17 movies released on video by the end of the year with Kung Fu Panda being it after Bee Movie, even if that title is really big there is nothing to indicate that it will sell close to as much as Live-action blockbusters on HDM. Excluding Shrek 3, Bee Movie, and Kung Fu Panda every movie they could have a special edition DVD release this year and probably wouldn't make $100 million combined. It would completely make sense as a business decision to sit out the year if they would keep the $100 million.

The thing I question was Toshiba's decision to pay $100 million for the Dreamworks Animation titles, they will only have 17 so Toshiba payed almost $5.9 million per title if they were all released this year.

Here is a list of all there title if it hasn't been posted:

Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas
Chicken Run
El Dorado
Flushed Away
Joseph: King of Dreams
Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron
Over the Hedge
Shark Tale
Antz
Madagascar
Wallace and Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit
The Prince of Egypt
Shrek
Shrek 2
Shrek the Third
Bee Movie
Kung Fu Panda

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Trends/DreamWorks/DreamWorks_Animation:_Still_HD_DVD_Exclusive_(For_Now)/1516 (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Trends/DreamWorks/DreamWorks_Animation:_Still_HD_DVD_Exclusive_(For_Now)/1516)
DreamWorks Animation: Still HD DVD Exclusive (For Now)
Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:00 PM ET

'Bee Movie' is the only upcoming DreamWorks Animation title currently on the HD DVD schedule. Katzenberg told Reuters he was waiting to hear back from Toshiba on how to proceed with that title.

Wait, are you kidding???

This thread is 3 pages long because "DreamWorks Animation: Still HD DVD Exclusive (For Now)"...and all they have to show for it is BEE MOVIE???

Oh please, nothing to see here...move along everybody.

:D

C O N S P I R A C Y ! ! ! ! !

Why is it the automatic reason as to why an action was taken?
No wonder the world is :eek::eek::eek:

Now, that doesn't mean there wasn't/isn't one......

But, could it be that one of the first reasons was to show the public that Dreamworks honors their committments?
...could another reason be that the progess point in the mastering process is far enough along that abandonment is far most cost than finishing the HD-DVD?
...could it be that aquiring contracts to ramp production of 'Blue' disks are still in a working stage, and assure quantities?
...could it be that at even at 20% from the HD-DVD player base is projected to purchase the movie, above the base SD-DVD sales?

So rather than release Bee Movie on BD and sell 6,000 copies it is going to see how much of that 100M it can keep. Understand, that is a LOT of $ for a relatively small studio, even if it is just promotional marketing money. I think the highest profitability for any studio I saw for last year was 1.1B for Warner for 2007 (please don't ask for a link though).
As another point of reference, I believe that Paramount only paid about $1.1 billion for Dreamworks (not the animation side). And Dreamworks Animation currently has a market cap of just under $2.6 billion with earnings around $200 million for the last year, according to Yahoo. So, yes, I think in that context $100 million is a lot of money for just the animation side to release on HD DVD and not Blu-ray until the end of 2008.

Given that Shrek the Third didn't seem to sell all that many copies, it wouldn't surprise me if Dreamworks Animation has sold 100k discs or less since they signed that contract to go HD DVD exclusively. If they hold out for the rest of the year to get the whole (reported) $100 million and sell 500k discs, that will come to about $200 per disc from Toshiba to DA.

For those who want to look at common sense with whether Warner got anything for going Blu-ray exclusive, here is one thing people can think about. Even if Jeffrey Bewkes (the new CEO of Time Warner) decided that he wanted to take their studios to Blu-ray exclusively, he would have to be a very poor businessman to demand less than $150 million from the Blu-ray side to do so. I think most would agree that Warner and New Line together should get more than Paramount and Dreamworks Animation together. The people at Time Warner making these decisions had a responsibility to their shareholders and not getting something when the BDA would obviously be willing to give them something would be the kind of thing that they should get fired for if they did it IMO. The BDA offering something and Warner getting something is what makes business sense to me, even if Warner wanted to go Blu-ray exclusive.

--Darin

Toshiba paid Katzenberg to stiff his Blu-ray customers. Now he wants Toshiba to pay him to stiff his HD DVD customers and return to his Blu-ray customers.

There was only 1 title involved so far and only 1 on the table for $100M.

Hey, such a deal!

is Transformers considered Paramount or Dreamworks?

is Transformers considered Paramount or Dreamworks?

Paramount of course. Todays DREAMWORKS SKG only makes animation titles if I'm informed right.

is Transformers considered Paramount or Dreamworks?Definitely not Dreamworks Animation. Transformers is from the Dreamworks side within Paramount. Dreamworks Animation is a separate company (but has a distribution agreement with Paramount). Using just "Dreamworks" gets a little confusing as it doesn't specify the Dreamworks group within Paramount, or the company called "Dreamworks Animation SKG Inc."

--Darin

Its very possible that Transformers, Iron Man, and the new Indiana Jones could sell 1 million discs each by the end of the year, at $25 a disc thats $75 million in sales (not all profit). They have a good chance to make more than the $50 million they were paid (which some must have already been paid).


WHAT?!??! 1M disks? I will accept any wager you can imagine that involves 1,000,000 Transformers Blu-Ray disks selling at an avg of $25 each. ANY.

I believe 300 is still the only HDM title that has sold more than 150k. You think a catalog is going to sell more than 7X that? The fact you think any title is going to sell that many is crazy to me. There has to be a LOT of Blu-Ray players getting sold before you start using the M word.

As to the rest of the post, Paramount has nothing to do with this. It is ONLY Dreamworks Animation.

Dreamworks Animation (NYSE: DWA) has a distribution deal with Paramount, so most of us have linked Dreamworks Animation with Dreamworks SKG and Paramount.

Dreamsworks Animation is a fully separate company, while Dreamworks SKG and Paramount are owned by Viacom.

Paramount was apparently paid $50M for dropping Blu-ray, while Dreamworks Animation was paid $100M. This latter deal was really rich for Dreamworks Animation. They have only released one title (underperforming Shrek III) and presently only have one in the docket.

It apparently is a reflection of the desparation that Toshiba felt last summer that they would make such an astounding deal.

Now, Katzenberg wants to be paid to "let" Toshiba out of the deal. In normal terms, of course, Katzenberg should want to be able to start distributing Blu-ray, because that his where his business is leading him. HOWEVER, the terms of the Toshiba deal were so rich that he cannot resist milking it a bit more.

Which would you rather do: be paid your current salary for going to work, or have Toshiba pay you $100M for staying home?

It is only Dreamworks Animation. The live action titles are distributed by Paramount.

Good. I'd hate to think that Transformers on Blu-Ray might be delayed because of some B.S. legalese like this.

It doesn't even make sense. What's the point in being exclusive to a format that is DEAD and whose CREATOR even pulled out of the race? :confused:

If that is the case, then it would simply be a smart business move.

Although, if that is true I have to wonder why Paramount didn't do the exact same thing since it is highly unlikely that they could earn enough in revenue from Blu-ray releases over the next year to equal what they were reportedly being paid to remain HD-DVD exclusive.

That is unless they are planning some really "big" releases for later this year...

(The original Indy Trilogy to go with film #4's Blu-Ray release this Christmas, anyone?)

:D

From reading other forums, some with very reputable insiders, Paramount/Dreamworks were paid $50 million (incentives/advertising/cash) and Dreamworks Animation was paid the other $100 million (again incentives/advertising/cash). I do not know the specifics, but obviously the Dreamworks animation deal either had a better contract or maybe it was a total cash payment.

Again, I think it is a power play by Dreamworks. "Give us a pay off or we will stay HD DVD exclusive for another year and get the full 100 million." Plus it makes Toshiba look like the bad guys.

Toshiba had to pay Paramount and Dreamworks Animation to act against their own interests (or better, had to pay them so that it would be in their interest to give up their much larger Blu-ray sales). That is not true for Warner and the BDA.

/carmi

Sorry but I just have to disagree with you on this.

However, since it seems evident from your comments that you are unwilling to look at things in any other light but that which you choose to see it it, I really have nothing else to say to you on this subject.

So rather than release Bee Movie on BD and sell 6,000 copies it is going to see how much of that 100M it can keep.

If Bee movie was day and date it would sell more than 6,000 copies. You are talking about Blu Ray right and not HD DVD?:D

If Bee movie was day and date it would sell more than 6,000 copies. You are talking about Blu Ray right and not HD DVD?:D

Haahhhhhhhhhhhhaaa. Very funny. See my laugh?

Even on HD-DVD it will obviously sell more than just lousy 6.000 copies.

Man. I could already name you at least 6000 guys who are willing to buy this movie so there must be plenty more. I'd say it will sell at least 8-10 thousand copies.

Haahhhhhhhhhhhhaaa. Very funny. See my laugh?

Even on HD-DVD it will obviously sell more than just lousy 6.000 copies.

Man. I could already name you at least 6000 guys who are willing to buy this movie so there must be plenty more. I'd say it will sell at least 8-10 thousand copies.

I was kidding. coolhand knows it would sell a lot more 6,000 copies on Blu Ray. That is just his/her way of jabbing at the other format.

I will pm you my address so you can send me that list of 6000 guys that would buy "the bee movie" on HD DVD.:D

oh no, not again. The big difference is, that Dreamworks has ADMITTED receiving compensation, while the Warner story is just pure rumor and speculation and has been denied not only by Warner, but by several Insiders on blu-ray.com as well. As has been the unfounded rumor that Fox was close to switching to HD DVD.Yeah... Kinda like how Roger Clemmons is innocent of steroid use, while Marion Jones is guilty. :p

thanks for all the info on Transformers not being DreamWorks SKG.

Dreamworks wants to get paid in full.

They did the math and they can't make up that much money from BR sales.

Let's say the exclusive contract runs out Jan 2009. From now till then, each month they are paid X amount to remain exclusive. For this to make sense, X needs to be less than the amount they'd make from releasing titles on BR during that time span.

Why dont they just release on both and drop HD DVD when contract expires?

Haahhhhhhhhhhhhaaa. Very funny. See my laugh?

Even on HD-DVD it will obviously sell more than just lousy 6.000 copies.

Man. I could already name you at least 6000 guys who are willing to buy this movie so there must be plenty more. I'd say it will sell at least 8-10 thousand copies.

Now you must be kidding too, no? You make fun of 6000 copies and all you come up with is a guarantee for 8000-10000? If you want to make fun of 6000, please guarantee at least 20,000 or 30,000 copies sold on HD DVD ;)

Dreamworks wants to get paid in full.


Dreamworks also did most of its part by not releasing Shrek III in the run-up to Christmas. Who cares about Bee movie in the low-sales season?

Ah the memories, lol :D

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13240782#post13240782

Its very possible that Transformers, Iron Man, and the new Indiana Jones could sell 1 million discs each by the end of the year, at $25 a disc thats $75 million in sales (not all profit). They have a good chance to make more than the $50 million they were paid (which some must have already been paid).

Possible, but pretty unlikely.

Dreamworks Animation has will have 17 movies released on video by the end of the year with Kung Fu Panda being it after Bee Movie, even if that title is really big there is nothing to indicate that it will sell close to as much as Live-action blockbusters on HDM.

Yes, but 8 of those titles were released before they split from Dreamworks SKG and I am not sure if Paramount acquired rights to them or not.

Excluding Shrek 3, Bee Movie, and Kung Fu Panda every movie they could have a special edition DVD release this year and probably wouldn't make $100 million combined. It would completely make sense as a business decision to sit out the year if they would keep the $100 million.

Probably what Sparky (Jeffery Katzenberg) is thinking.

/carmi

Yeah... Kinda like how Roger Clemmons is innocent of steroid use, while Marion Jones is guilty. :p

+1

I can't believe anyone would actually think the only studios paid for were done so by Toshiba.

Didn't Bluray have exclusives long before they even had a product in the marketplace?

Wasn't there a studio saying they will NEVER release on HD DVD even if HD DVD wins?

If there was enough reason for the EU to investigate Sony for violating antitrust laws, I'm sure they were involved in payoffs of some sort too.

There is some suspicion surrounding the exclusive deals that the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has signed with some of the movie studios.

http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertainment/high-definition/news/blu-ray-and-hd-dvd-probed-in-eu-investigation?articleid=607814368

Sorry but I just have to disagree with you on this.

Are you saying that it was in Paramount's financial interest to drop Blu-ray rather than remaining neutral without Toshiba's cash even though it was outselling HD DVD? Unlike Warner, their move to either side would have little effect on overall sales (again we can see what happened when they left). From a pure financial standpoint, without a cash payout, they should have remained neutral (no reason to move to Blu-ray exclusive as it would not end things and would leave money on the table).

Warner, in contrast, was the largest neutral player. Given their concern about declining DVD sales, they clearly felt a need to do something to end this quickly. Moving to HD DVD exclusive alone would not have ended things as that would still have left the split fairly even between these formats. Moving to Blu-ray exclusive would likely (and as we can see, did in fact) end things.

I am not arguing that it is impossible for Warner to have received compensation, just that I have yet to see either solid evidence of it, or solid rationale why any BDA member would have paid out the kind of numbers people have thrown around ($400 million - $500 million), given Warner's own concerns about this conflict.

However, since it seems evident from your comments that you are unwilling to look at things in any other light but that which you choose to see it it, I really have nothing else to say to you on this subject.

I am happy to consider your views (and those of others who disagree) but I expect either solid evidence or at least a very strong explanation in support of those views.

/carmi

I can't believe anyone would actually think the only studios paid for were done so by Toshiba.

It is not that hard a view to defend.

Didn't Bluray have exclusives long before they even had a product in the marketplace?

Those studios that were exclusive to Blu-ray had clear reasons for doing so. Sony Pictures had a clear corporate stake in exclusivity. Disney and Fox were both very public about their concerns about content protection. HD DVD did not offer any analog to BD+ or ROM Mark, nor did it offer region coding (at least at release). Disney's frequent staggered release schedule makes that critical. Disney and Fox were both supported Divx as much as anything for it stronger DRM.

Universal, HD DVD's first exclusive (and the first studio with a contractual duty to stay that way), had no stated or obvious reason for their actions.

Wasn't there a studio saying they will NEVER release on HD DVD even if HD DVD wins?

Can you find evidence of this? While I can imagine that Fox or Disney would have been concerned about release effectively unprotected HD copies of their films, I do not recall any such public statements from any studio executive.

If there was enough reason for the EU to investigate Sony for violating antitrust laws, I'm sure they were involved in payoffs of some sort too.

Actually, the EU investigated both sides and found nothing in violation of anti-trust laws.

While it is certainly possible that Sony initially subsidized their pressing cost while they ramped up production in anticipation of cost reductions with volume (again, no one has provided any solid evidence that this happened), it seem unlikely they were required to pay their natural allies to be exclusive.

/carmi

Probably what Sparky (Jeffery Katzenberg) is thinking.

/carmi

Could be.

They might as well release all they have on HD DVD ASAP if that's going to be the case.

I would still like Shrek 1 and Madagascar for the kids.

Dreamworks wants to get paid in full.

They did the math and they can't make up that much money from BR sales.:rolleyes:

Nice try, but thar argument holds no water. With a grand total of two titles, they'd be hard pressed to make up that money on DVD, let alone a 1.5 year-old format that just got out of a war.

[QUOTE=JBlacklow;13241884]:rolleyes:

Nice try, but thar argument holds no water. With a grand total of two titles, they'd be hard pressed to make up that money on DVD, let alone a 1.5 year-old format that just got out of a war.[/QU

I think you just helped to make his point

Bluray....Beyond Buying off Studios:

Warner had no choice but to accept the BDA’s $500 Million offer to go Blu-ray exclusive.

http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2008/01/04/warner-swayed-by-500-million-from-the-bda/

Right. The cry of an HD DVD zealot. You have enough tears to fill an ocean I bet.

Take off the tin-foil hat and leave your mom's basement to get some fresh air.

No evidence on Warner bribe. I love the *sources* that were cited in early January discussing Warner's decision. Fantastic stuff. The source was a person stuck with obsolete tech clutching onto the last straw of dignity.

Katzenberg is the horses mouth.

Can we please end the format war conspiracy theories? There is absolutely nothing to be gained in rehashing any of these things except hard feelings and the end of decorum on this forum.

To recap the factual parts of this thread:

Dreamworks Animation is a separate entity from Dreamworks SKG and is not controlled in any way by Viacom, except insofar as they have a distribution deal through Paramount (in much the same way that MGM Studios has a distribution deal with 20th Century Fox).

Dreamworks SKG is owned by Viacom.

Paramount is owned by Viacom.

The only HD DVD release to date from Dreamworks Animation is Shrek the Third.

The only announced upcoming HD DVD release from Dreamworks Animation is Bee Movie.

Dreamworks Animation is not responsible in any way for Transformers - that would be the Dreamworks SKG arm of Viacom (distributed through Paramount).

Seriously, this whole discussion is even more absurd than the tempest-in-a-teacup brewing over There Will Be Blood's limbo status.

first imho the bray clan hasn't half a billion to throw away like that
these companies barely make a yearly profit if not a loss. they are also facing the world financial crisis that affect many banks and business access to credit. (and we have seen nothing yet ! you'll see).
a company like microsoft on the other hand sits or sat on a ton of cash ($30B)
so i'd believe more of large enveloppes from that clan than vice versa. i'd believe more in "share of royalties".
secondly consumers purchases inverted the trend of bray sales/hd dvd sales last year.
Warner's decision just exacerbeted to a 9:1 ratio in january. also since the beginning bray sales were vastly superior in Japan also.
This is not a Sony stuff "à la vhs" story again. this time it's a consortium of manufacturers and more studios backing this format. of course mixed up in a games consoles war.
but i'm not surprised of Katzenberg's odd attitude this is a person who worries and sees doom (cf his view of the dvd industry and the cinema industry and while he's right the coying of a film is disgusting and illegal, the reall issues is NOT the internet downloading of illegal copies but millions of people doing copies of a $2 rented dvd movie on their pc or living room dvd recorder ! that's the issue. sales of dvds are droppingand dropping and so is the price.)
and let's not forget this: dvd was vastly superior to vhs, bray is vastly superior to dvd IF shown on a large screen and that means more than 50'' plasma: the public is not going en masse to this imho and certainly not as fast as dvd was. the question also is : is Hollywood REALLY wanting high definition for the public ?
even some installers etc who could compare a dvd upscaled/decoded by a $1000-2000 dvd player on a large screen know what i mean (mainly because the sce used for the hd edition is the limiting factor and few sces were cleaned and remastered etc since it costs a ton of money for how many sales ???).
is there another format looming? specialized press already say the lifespan of this format won't be 10years (1997 2007 if we consider the arrival of hd in 2007) as dvd had but rather till 2012 them something else will happen. how many blu ray titles will have been released till then ?....

Dreamworks wants to get paid in full.

They did the math and they can't make up that much money from BR sales.

Let's say the exclusive contract runs out Jan 2009. From now till then, each month they are paid X amount to remain exclusive. For this to make sense, X needs to be less than the amount they'd make from releasing titles on BR during that time span.It's kinda funny actually. I bet Toshiba was hoping by dropping HD DVD support when they did that Dreamworks would have moved to Blu-Ray and they could have recouped some of that agreement.

Right. The cry of an HD DVD zealot. You have enough tears to fill an ocean I bet.

Take off the tin-foil hat and leave your mom's basement to get some fresh air.

No evidence on Warner bribe. I love the *sources* that were cited in early January discussing Warner's decision. Fantastic stuff. The source was a person stuck with obsolete tech clutching onto the last straw of dignity.

Katzenberg is the horses mouth.Did you create that member account just so you can spew crap whenever you please without being suspended on your other account? The war is over buddy.... move on.

This thread is not about Warners or other alleged payoffs.

For all I know, Warners may have been paid, but there is no evidence that they were that the mainstream press would consider worthy. In any case it is irrelevant to the current situation which concerns only Dreamworks Animation (and possibly Paramount).

We need to stop all of the battlecrys of the format war and get on with things. Let's focus on what remains to be done.

PLEASE!

WHAT?!??! 1M disks? I will accept any wager you can imagine that involves 1,000,000 Transformers Blu-Ray disks selling at an avg of $25 each. ANY.

I believe 300 is still the only HDM title that has sold more than 150k. You think a catalog is going to sell more than 7X that? The fact you think any title is going to sell that many is crazy to me. There has to be a LOT of Blu-Ray players getting sold before you start using the M word.

As to the rest of the post, Paramount has nothing to do with this. It is ONLY Dreamworks Animation.

I did not mean that Transformers (or any other title) would sell 1 million the first week, I meant by the end of the year so let say it comes out mid April it would have 8 months to get there. As of 12/30/07, 7 movies have passed 150k total.

1. 300 315,200
2. Transformers 239,100
3. POTC: At World's End 219,300
4. Casino Royale 169,800
5. Planet Earth 162,500
6. Bourne Ultimatum 162,300
7. 300 157,200



The month of January had 4-5 times as many BD discs sold as last January if that continues in December 7-8 million discs will be sold. It could be even more as many people believe that adoption will happen faster due to one format.

The Paramount thing was a response to someone asking why they didn't hold out for the money like Dreamworks Animation, I responded by saying they could make more money with the titles that should be released this year.

Why dont they just release on both and drop HD DVD when contract expires?

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word exclusive. Dreamworks Animation is being paid to be exclusive to HD DVD. If they're not exclusive, they don't get paid.

When Paramount did the big switch, the articles always said $150 million. And people regurgitated that number repeatedly. But the articles also said $50 million to Paramount and $100 million to Dreamworks Animation. Now, I kept trying to point that out to people, but most overlooked the details or ignored them. Not that it really mattered. Getting paid $50 million or $150 million isn't a huge difference to you or me. It just bugged me that people kept repeating bad information.

Logically it never made sense why Dreamworks Animation got so much. Paramount has an enormous catalog and the most important upcoming new release, Transformers (at least when the deal was made). They should have gotten way more than Dreamworks Animation. So something in those reports of $100 million payoff never smelled right.

I'm not sure what they actually got, but it's obviously worth more to release on HD DVD than on Blu-Ray for them.

By this point in the thread I think people finally recognize the difference between Dreamworks SKG and Dreamworks Animation. I think a lot of people still don't understand contract law, which leds to a lot of these bizarre posts. But the bottom line is Dreamworks wants to get paid, and it looks like they should get paid provided they continue to be HD DVD exclusive.

And Toshiba still has some benefits from the exclusivity.Those benefits are very small though and would it be worth $50+ million dollars to get two day and date exclusive titles on HD DVD this year? One of which would be released over half a year after Toshiba stops selling HD DVD players.


Again, I think it is a power play by Dreamworks. "Give us a pay off or we will stay HD DVD exclusive for another year and get the full 100 million." Plus it makes Toshiba look like the bad guys.It does look like Katzenberg might be trying to pressure a good exit deal from Toshiba by openly talking about their deal to the press especially since he said that the decision was up to Toshiba.


Why dont they just release on both and drop HD DVD when contract expires?The Dreamworks Animation contract made with Toshiba was to exclusively support HD DVD for 18 months so as long as they are in that contract they can't legally release titles on Blu-ray.


Logically it never made sense why Dreamworks Animation got so much.Business Week has a good explanation for that (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_51/b4063028294846_page_2.htm) since part of the deal was that Toshiba got to use Shrek characters for advertising purposes (http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6499149). For anyone curious here are the HD DVD TV commercials with Donkey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAYxYxn3iTA) and Gingy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuJDgxIpR8).

Business Week has a good explanation for that (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_51/b4063028294846_page_2.htm) since part of the deal was that Toshiba got to use Shrek characters for advertising purposes (http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6499149). For anyone curious here are the HD DVD TV commercials with Donkey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAYxYxn3iTA) and Gingy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuJDgxIpR8).


Good find. That is very interesting. I wondered about those Shrek HD DVD commercials. Hey, you can learn something on this forum after all.......

Well I hope DreamWorks continues to make HD DVD movies. There is still a high demand for HD DVD movies. Not to mention all the extra HD DVD players being sold right now that will just add to that 1+ million HD DVD player figure.

Right. The cry of an HD DVD zealot. You have enough tears to fill an ocean I bet.

Take off the tin-foil hat and leave your mom's basement to get some fresh air.

No evidence on Warner bribe. I love the *sources* that were cited in early January discussing Warner's decision. Fantastic stuff. The source was a person stuck with obsolete tech clutching onto the last straw of dignity.

Katzenberg is the horses mouth.

What does it matter now?


And you really believe that Warner just up and went BD exclusive without a payoff?

WOW...get your heads out of the sand....this is the real world. If I were a Movie studio and someone wanted to pay me 500 million to go exclusive I would.....they probably havents made that much money on HD anyway...HD media may not be in your home but it is in 98% of that consumers home just a niche product and still is.....

I used to buy HD DVD and BD titles all the time but now, Aftyer realizing that most of the movies out there are not worth watching once let alone twice I have seriously cut back my movie buying....I sold my ps3 and will wait to buy a fully finalized player in...well whenever they get to $300.00 and I think that is a fair price. I hear most people say $150.00 but I am cool with $300.00 and until then I will upscale DVD on my XA2 and only watch HD DVD's and watch PPV HD on dish.

If what some are suggesting holds true and DW Animation stays red to collect, might it cause Paramount to rethink things? I mean, if the money thing is true can Paramount realistically expect to make north of $50,000,000 selling BD's in the next year.. even if Sony were to offset their production costs completely?

I would guess not.

Paramount has already said they are back to supporting blu, but stranger things have happened.

PM/DW studios also took a lot of flak in the media for going HD DVD exclusive via payoff (which was widely reported) and they earned a fair amount of ill-will from BD supporters. So IMO it's not really right if Toshiba simply says, "OK, it's over.. give us our money back now."

I have a hunch that if Toshiba did give them money and they are trying to recollect it, both studios will simply follow the letter of their contract and ride it out unless Toshiba is willing to release them fully satisfied (ie collect no repayment of any kind.)

Or, Toshiba may just let them out $150 million light, depending upon where their current interests lie.

I am just speculating of course. The format war remains interesting even after one side calls it quits.

There is still a high demand for HD DVD movies.

Based on what? In a few short weeks one will not be able to buy HD DVD at almost any retail store. Fire sale prices will increase sales numbers for a short time, but that is likely to be offset by an increasing number of people deciding to buy Blu-ray versions of these titles rather than increasing their dead format collection.

Not to mention all the extra HD DVD players being sold right now that will just add to that 1+ million HD DVD player figure.

Once again, Toshiba has stated that they sold 300,000 standalone players in North America, 300,000 Xbox 300,000 Xbox add-on drives, and 150,000 total players and drives in the rest of the world for a total of 750,000. Many of these players were sold to people who already had a player (look at how many people on here talk about having 2-3 players). It amazes me that even after these numbers have appeared many times (including several times in this thread alone), many HD DVD zealots still use their much larger fantasy number.

If what some are suggesting holds true and DW Animation stays red to collect, might it cause Paramount to rethink things? I mean, if the money thing is true can Paramount realistically expect to make north of $50,000,000 selling BD's in the next year.. even if Sony were to offset their production costs completely?

I would guess not.

Paramount has already said they are back to supporting blu, but stranger things have happened.

Highly unlikely, especially if they are hoping to get any sort of concessions of support out of the BDA. They (and Dreamworks Animation) are already walking on thin ice; if they waffle again, it's extremely doubtful any BDA members will be willing to lift a finger to help them get back up to speed on Blu-ray.

It hardly matters, though. The ball is really in Toshiba's court at this point; either they renegotiate the contracts and pay less, or pay the full amount and bleed even more red ink over a format they've formally dropped.

At this point, neither Paramount nor Dreamworks Animation's participation is necessary for Blu-ray to push ahead; it would certainly be nice, but with the retail space shifting almost entirely to Blu-ray, the question is no longer "if", but "when".

do we have sales figures as of now for the hddvd of TRANSFORMERS or blu ray of casino royale ?
i remember MI3 sold/shipped in a couple of weeks millions of DVDs vs 15,000 hd dvds if i remember correctly.
the hd format is still doing poorly imho but i'd like to see figures.

Based on what? In a few short weeks one will not be able to buy HD DVD at almost any retail store. Fire sale prices will increase sales numbers for a short time, but that is likely to be offset by an increasing number of people deciding to buy Blu-ray versions of these titles rather than increasing their dead format collection.



Once again, Toshiba has stated that they sold 300,000 standalone players in North America, 300,000 Xbox 300,000 Xbox add-on drives, and 150,000 total players and drives in the rest of the world for a total of 750,000. Many of these players were sold to people who already had a player (look at how many people on here talk about having 2-3 players). It amazes me that even after these numbers have appeared many times (including several times in this thread alone), many HD DVD zealots still use their much larger fantasy number.

No, the "300,000 standalone players in North America" is the fantasy number, it was a typo by whoever reported it first and now people like you are trying to use it to your advantage and to gloat. Not really surprising judging by the amount of FUD in the past. :rolleyes: The real figure is actually 600,000 and has now been corrected in the original article:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/live-from-toshibas-hd-dvd-press-conference-in-tokyo/

No, the "300,000 standalone players in North America" is the fantasy number, it was a typo by whoever reported it first and now people like you are trying to use it to your advantage and to gloat. Not really surprising judging by the amount of FUD in the past.[/URL]

Sorry, I read that number is multiple reports and had not heard or read any correction. It appears I was incorrect.

/carmi

What does it matter now?


And you really believe that Warner just up and went BD exclusive without a payoff?

WOW...get your heads out of the sand....this is the real world. If I were a Movie studio and someone wanted to pay me 500 million to go exclusive I would.....they probably havents made that much money on HD anyway...HD media may not be in your home but it is in 98% of that consumers home just a niche product and still is.....

I used to buy HD DVD and BD titles all the time but now, Aftyer realizing that most of the movies out there are not worth watching once let alone twice I have seriously cut back my movie buying....I sold my ps3 and will wait to buy a fully finalized player in...well whenever they get to $300.00 and I think that is a fair price. I hear most people say $150.00 but I am cool with $300.00 and until then I will upscale DVD on my XA2 and only watch HD DVD's and watch PPV HD on dish.


I don't think he's the one who needs to get his head out of something...

Dreamworks SKG and Dreamworks Animation have just less of a catalog of titles available. They just have less movies in their library.

It may make perfect sense for them to hold off on their release until the end of the year or after next Christmas when the size of the Blu-ray installed base of owners is much larger.

They would be perfect "5Q" releases for Jan 2009 where they could do a lot of sales in the 90 days after their release after all the holiday Blu-ray players have been unwrapped.

Plus the get to keep any monies they got.

Even though Toshiba as the sole maker of HD DVD components has said its getting out of that business and HD DVD is de facto dead, until the DVD forum kills it, it may be still considered to be legally alive.

Sounds like some negotiations between Toshiba and Dreamworks are still ongoing.

+1
They get more money this way since there is no way they could make those kinds of numbers selling BD discs currently. A hundred million dollars is a lot of cash to give back if they can find a way to keep it. Also, it's not like that they won't still have those titles that they can release after the contracts expire. Even as a staunch BD supporter, it's what I would do it if was my company. It doesn’t make me an a#$-hole, just fiscally responsible to the company and it stockholders.

Well I hope DreamWorks continues to make HD DVD movies. There is still a high demand for HD DVD movies. Not to mention all the extra HD DVD players being sold right now that will just add to that 1+ million HD DVD player figure.
At least some B&M's are closing out their stock of HD-DVD media as well as hardware. I know that Hollywood Video is selling its new arrival HD-DVD's (like Beowulf) as previously viewed to move them out.

I am happy to consider your views (and those of others who disagree) but I expect either solid evidence or at least a very strong explanation in support of those views.

/carmi

If you want a reason as to why I stopped debating with you it was this comment that you made..

Actually, according to Toshiba, Blu-ray standalone players out sold HD DVD players even during this "huge increase",

Which is simply not true

600,000 players in the US and 300,000 Xbox 360 HD DVD drives. 100,000 units were sold in Europe. And about 10,000 players and 20,000 recorders in Japan. So about 1,030,000 units worldwide.

Toshiba's statement (http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/live-from-toshibas-hd-dvd-press-conference-in-tokyo/)

Since my point was that Warner had not allowed sufficient time to see what effect the increased Hardware sales would produce before making a decision.

It was your response with pure FUD that caused me to just "walk away" from the conversation.

It was your response with pure FUD that caused me to just "walk away" from the conversation.


Of course, the fact that he was basing his numbers on the original press release which had the incorrect information, and then he acknowledged that he was incorrect and hadn't seen the corrected report mean nothing, right?

There was nothing FUD there. Blame Toshiba for not releasing the correct information the first time around...

Of course, the fact that he was basing his numbers on the original press release which had the incorrect information, and then he acknowledged that he was incorrect and hadn't seen the corrected report mean nothing, right?

There was nothing FUD there. Blame Toshiba for not releasing the correct information the first time around...

Exactly..

Of course, the fact that he was basing his numbers on the original press release which had the incorrect information, and then he acknowledged that he was incorrect and hadn't seen the corrected report mean nothing, right?

There was nothing FUD there. Blame Toshiba for not releasing the correct information the first time around...

I read that it was a reporter that got the information wrong, not Toshiba. The incorrect sales figures were typed from an interview with Toshiba, not from their press release. I may be wrong of course and Toshiba may have given the interviewer the wrong numbers but that's not what I've read. What disturbs me is that the correction isn't being given as much publicity as the earlier incorrect sales figures. (Then again the media always do that. The lies are in the headlines whereas the retractions are buried in a few lines at the bottom of the back pages.)

As a consumer and movie-lover this is getting so tiresome. If high-def never takes off and consumers just start downloading standard lo/def from the Internet, the studios will have nobody but themselves to blame.

My enthusiasm for high-def has just about run out since I got my PS3 last July. How about less bickering and getting some good titles released?

I agree 100%. I have been waiting for the situation to clear and the good releases to come. If even after HD DVD's defeat the good releases will not start coming big time, I'll just enjoy the reduced DVD prices.

Of course, the fact that he was basing his numbers on the original press release which had the incorrect information, and then he acknowledged that he was incorrect and hadn't seen the corrected report mean nothing, right?

There was nothing FUD there. Blame Toshiba for not releasing the correct information the first time around...

1. I never saw any original press release. The only one I have seen is the one which I quoted above.

2. I didn't see his post acknowledging any error when I read and replied to his response to me.

3. If that is the case then it may simply be a case of misinformation and miscommunication all around.

And if anyone can provide a link to this "original" press release by Toshiba, I wouldn't mind seeing what it said.

It does not matter anymore.

Which is simply not true

According to NPD (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa149.html#npd), Blu-ray out sold HD DVD in December by about 50% (60-40). That does not include Playstation 3 console sales. If you dispute those numbers, please provide some evidence.

Toshiba's statement (http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/live-from-toshibas-hd-dvd-press-conference-in-tokyo/) That is the corrected post. I had not seen the correction.

Since my point was that Warner had not allowed sufficient time to see what effect the increased Hardware sales would produce before making a decision.

Again, even if they were close, for Toshiba to have turned things around they would have needed a 2-1 margin in their favor to counter the fact that since inception (according to Toshiba), they only had 49% of the stand alone market and a miniscule percentage of the console market.

Just so I understand, are you saying that you think that Toshiba's HD DVD sales in December were so much greater that they would have turned around the 60-40 software sales numbers?

Given that Warner's stated goal was ending the conflict, do you think that any decision on their part other than becoming Blu-ray exclusive could have done that as quickly? Do you dispute that announcing at CES would have had maximum impact and that announcing 1-2 months later would have muted that impact quite a bit?

Unless you believe all three of those things, there would be no incentive for Warner to wait. By the time they made their decision, they already knew that no major hardware player was going to join Toshiba (thanks to their artificially low prices), nor was Fox willing to switch. Warner only had one choice that would accomplish their goal of ending the conflict before it did serious damage to their DVD and HDM sales.

/carmi

1. I never saw any original press release. The only one I have seen is the one which I quoted above.

2. I didn't see his post acknowledging any error when I read and replied to his response to me.

3. If that is the case then it may simply be a case of misinformation and miscommunication all around.

And if anyone can provide a link to this "original" press release by Toshiba, I wouldn't mind seeing what it said.

The original breaking news was from engadgets "Live from Toshiba's HD DVD press conference in Tokyo". The article originally had this:

Originally Posted by Atsutoshi Nishida-san (Toshiba CEO)
Q: How many HD DVD players and recorders, exactly, did you sell?
A: 600,000 players in the US -- 300,000 of which were Xbox 360 HD DVD drives. 100,000 units were sold in Europe. And about 10,000 players and 20,000 recorders in Japan. So about 730,000 units worldwide.

The locked thread on the article:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=996408


Either way it doesn't matter as Toshiba has called it quits. To read more go here:

http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/

Microsoft and Toshiba were getting their asses kicked for over a year straight even with BOGO's and severe price cuts putting them at a huge price advantage over blu-ray on the hardware side.

(Then again the media always do that. The lies are in the headlines whereas the retractions are buried in a few lines at the bottom of the back pages.)

Page 97, among the want ads for garden compost:

"We wish to correct our front page story, in which we said that the Senator had acknowledged stealing $200 Million in state funds and running over his neighbor's dog. What he actually said was that he donating $2 million of his own money to build a new animal rescue facility. We apologize for this misprint."

I read the number in several places, so I cannot say how the mistake was made, nor did I ever see a correction. Oh well.

/carmi

Page 97, among the want ads for garden compost:

"We wish to correct our front page story, in which we said that the Senator had acknowledged stealing $200 Million in state funds and running over his neighbor's dog. What he actually said was that he donating $2 million of his own money to build a new animal rescue facility. We apologize for this misprint."

I read the number in several places, so I cannot say how the mistake was made, nor did I ever see a correction. Oh well.

/carmi

You'd be surprised about what gets buried, even completely accidentally without purposely trying to change the facts although that's often the case. Pop quiz hotshot, how many senses are there? (Not including things like psychic ability.) Also tell me a well known fact about lemmings?

(multiple ^) please stop with the derailing of this topic; hasn't everyone here tired of the bickering after years of having the format war rage? Sigh.

---

One open question remains, and is more germane to the topic at hand of Dreamworks Animation; where will they distribute these titles? Blockbuster Online might pick up some copies - but probably not very many, and we know Netflix won't be buying any at all. Many retailers that we've seen reports of have been blowing out even new HD DVD titles in clearance fashion. I can't quite see a retailer ordering tons of copies of a movie they know they won't make much, if any, money on, even if we assume there's any notable consumer demand.

As such, I would expect pre-book orders for any upcoming HD DVD titles to be very, very low (come to think of it, weren't the pre-book windows for American Gangster and Beowulf both at the beginning of this year, after the Warner switch? Perhaps those results had something to do with the stance shift from Paramount and Universal).

Of course, the fact that he was basing his numbers on the original press release which had the incorrect information, and then he acknowledged that he was incorrect and hadn't seen the corrected report mean nothing, right?

There was nothing FUD there. Blame Toshiba for not releasing the correct information the first time around... It was not in the Toshiba press release. The mistake was in the Q & A session posted in the engadget article, that was later corrected. It was either misheard or was a small mistranslation. Later new reports corrected it. But original engadget report was living in Internet time.

:)It does not matter anymore. The format war is over.:)

Pop quiz hotshot, how many senses are there? (Not including things like psychic ability.) Also tell me a well known fact about lemmings?


Sight
Smell
Taste
Touch
Hearing


Some include:


Temperature
Acceleration/Balance
Pain
kinesthetic


Lemmings were murdered in a Disney film by being forced to run over a cliff.

Anything else? :-)

/carmi

Sight
Smell
Taste
Touch
Hearing


Some include:


Temperature
Acceleration/Balance
Pain
kinesthetic


Lemmings were murdered in a Disney film by being forced to run over a cliff.

Anything else? :-)

/carmi

Well done, although balance really is actually the 6th sense. (And I've no idea what kinesthetic is, lol!) I can't remember all the details exactly at the moment but basically someone accidently forgot to include it in some educational book or something and the rest is history. (Or rather the rest is however many years of science lessons teaching children incomplete information, lol!) Anyway, the point is that I think you'll agree that the majority of people only know 5 senses and think that lemmings commit suicide off cliffs. (If only those were the only things most people don't know about. :()

:) The format war is over.:)

True, but for some 55 weeks of complete domination or 55 months we'd probably still get reply's:

"Oh noes, why did Warner act so quickly! :(. Just wait for next week"

Well done, although balance really is actually the 6th sense. (And I've no idea what kinesthetic is, lol!) I can't remember all the details exactly at the moment but basically someone accidently forgot to include it in some educational book or something and the rest is history. (Or rather the rest is however many years of science lessons teaching children incomplete information, lol!) Anyway, the point is that I think you'll agree that the majority of people only know 5 senses and think that lemmings commit suicide off cliffs. (If only those were the only things most people don't know about. :()

Can't be right. Hollywood teached me that seeing dead people is the 6th sense :p

Are you sure it wasn't Toshiba :eek:

Please no jokes or bashing on Toshiba. They're a great company with quality products (SONY has to fear them as Toshiba hardware won't implode after only 3 years in use like my dad experienced this 3 times already).

From all products SONY made I would only trust in the PS3, the AVRs, Laserdiscplayers (I'll still buy a Pioneer one however) and early CD-Players. I highly avoid SONY TVs as I was in the room when the SONY bigscreen of my dad imploded (THX style ;) )

Please no jokes or bashing on Toshiba. They're a great company with quality products (SONY has to fear them as Toshiba hardware won't implode after only 3 years in use like my dad experienced this 3 times already).

From all products SONY made I would only trust in the PS3, the AVRs, Laserdiscplayers (I'll still buy a Pioneer one however) and early CD-Players. I highly avoid SONY TVs as I was in the room when the SONY bigscreen of my dad imploded (THX style ;) )

It was a mere joke (actually deleted it before you posted as I figured there would be some sensitive people). Would be cool if you had a video of your experience.

Now that you've mentioned it though I've had quite great experiences with Sony products for the most part. In regards to Toshiba, just some shoddy HD-A3 that I own.. Though they did have some nice CRT RP back in the days; I went with a Hitachi as it had a better picture and a better price. Their current LCD's are mid teir at best, same with the current RP sets.

Sony has nothing to fear from Toshiba in the hardware arena. They're consistently rated high in customer satisfaction, and Sony TVs have won a ton of major customer choice awards over the years. Your dad's experience does not constitute a trend.

Sony has nothing to fear from Toshiba in the hardware arena. They're consistently rated high in customer satisfaction, and Sony TVs have won a ton of major customer choice awards over the years. Your dad's experience does not constitute a trend.

I wasn't speaking about the performance you know. SONYs product performance may be good but the component quality isn't as high rated as the ones used in Pioneer,Panasonic,LG or Samsung devices.

The really bad point (and the point why I avoid buying more expensive products from them) isn't the quality assurance but the warranty department.

I'd like to know what world exists where "customer satisfaction" doesn't track quality and customer service/warranties.

(And I've no idea what kinesthetic is, lol!)

It means knowing where your body parts are even when you cannot sense them with your other senses. It is the impaired sense that field sobriety tests measure by having you touch your nose with your eyes closed.

/carmi

I'd like to know what world exists where "customer satisfaction" doesn't track quality and customer service/warranties.

Some customers aren't satisfacted by track quality and the customer service but very much by the performance of the equipment alone.

Some years ago I wasn't that interested in warranty and service either. But after I run in some problems I figured that good service is important.

Sony has nothing to fear from Toshiba in the hardware arena. They're consistently rated high in customer satisfaction, and Sony TVs have won a ton of major customer choice awards over the years. Your dad's experience does not constitute a trend.Sony's premium line of products is very well made and reliable, but that is where it ends. Their mid to low end lines are some of the most troublesome in the electronics industry. Sony built their empire in the mid 80's by providing the higher quality standards. Today, they only emply those standards on their high end lines and you definately pay for it.

Sony has nothing to fear from Toshiba in the hardware arena. They're consistently rated high in customer satisfaction, and Sony TVs have won a ton of major customer choice awards over the years. Your dad's experience does not constitute a trend.

Oh please, Sony's best TV is made with Samsungs panel and all that extra processing they throw in actually looks better with it off.

It appears Sharp will also be helping Sony build TVs since clearly they can't do it anymore on there own.

Sony has nothing to fear from Toshiba in the hardware arena. They're consistently rated high in customer satisfaction, and Sony TVs have won a ton of major customer choice awards over the years. Your dad's experience does not constitute a trend.

Oh please, Sony's best TV is made with Samsungs panel and all that extra processing they throw in actually looks better with it off.

It appears Sharp will also be helping Sony build TVs since clearly they can't do it anymore on there own.

Oh please on what exactly? Did JBlacklow make any claim about how the tv's were built or who the parts came from?

You said Samsung, is that a good or a bad thing then in your mind in relation to the quality of Sony displays?

Personally I like Sony, Samsung and Sharp LCD's quite a bit. They are better than Toshiba's Regza's line. Really it comes down to what I can find the best deal on at the time usually. Christmas time for my parents it was a Samsung 40" but they wanted to upgrade. Couple of weeks later it was a Sharp 46", great price on the TV at Fry's (price matched) and it came with a slick sharp blu-ray player.

Personally a lot of tv's look better without some of the processing on, even the Samsungs. Really though it comes down to tastes. I really do like the 120hz tech and the interpolation for some material. Brings some material to the next level of immersion. :D

It means knowing where your body parts are even when you cannot sense them with your other senses. It is the impaired sense that field sobriety tests measure by having you touch your nose with your eyes closed.

/carmi

Oh, cool! Learned a new word, yay! :D That would come under the touch catagory as you can sort of internally feel where all your parts are. Unless there's a kinesthetic sensor? That's how the 6 senses (or 7 if kinesthetic is one) are defined, there's a specific sensor for each one. The one for balance is in the ear if I remember correctly. (No, I'm not thinking of the hearing sensor, lol!)

Oh, cool! Learned a new word, yay! :D That would come under the touch catagory as you can sort of internally feel where all your parts are. Unless there's a kinesthetic sensor? That's how the 6 senses (or 7 if kinesthetic is one) are defined, there's a specific sensor for each one. The one for balance is in the ear if I remember correctly. (No, I'm not thinking of the hearing sensor, lol!)

A related word that I love is 'proprioception'. ;-)

A related word that I love is 'proprioception'. ;-)

I actually looked that one up, so internal senses are counted seperately? I was shocked when I originally found out that there were 6 official senses not 5, but now I find out there are more internal ones! :eek: (I only read a little of what I looked up, I'm too exhausted to read all of it right now.) The funny thing is that I was right about kinesthetic (what would be the right word, kinesthesis?) being an internal sense without even knowing it, lol!

Video Business is reporting that the HD DVD release of Bee Movie is canceled.

http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6536681&desc=topstory

Video Business is reporting that the HD DVD release of Bee Movie is canceled.

http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6536681&desc=topstory

dvdslimited.com said they were getting it in next week. :mad: Maybe I'll get lucky and a few will leak through?

dvdslimited.com said they were getting it in next week. :mad: Maybe I'll get lucky and a few will leak through?

If any make it through it will be a made for ebay collector's item like the Blades of Glory Blu-ray.

Video Business is reporting that the HD DVD release of Bee Movie is canceled.

http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6536681&desc=topstoryDumb move by Paramount. I would have to assume a great deal of these were produced already. After not purchasing an HD DVD release since Transformers, I was planning on purchasing the Bee Movie. I guess instead of getting an extra $27 from me, they will be getting $0 instead with their decision to add them to the landfill.

Dumb move by Paramount. I would have to assume a great deal of these were produced already. After not purchasing an HD DVD release since Transformers, I was planning on purchasing the Bee Movie. I guess instead of getting an extra $27 from me, they will be getting $0 instead with their decision to add them to the landfill.

yeh, that $27 from you would make their fiscal year.

HDDVD releases were moving very little volume even before Toshiba waived the white flag. Any HDDVD movie released now would not even be carried by most retailers, and would just lead to financial losses.

Paramount just did the PRUDENT, fiscally responsible move. We can wait for the inevitable BD release of Bee Movie.

yeh, that $27 from you would make their fiscal year.

HDDVD releases were moving very little volume even before Toshiba waived the white flag. Any HDDVD movie released now would not even be carried by most retailers, and would just lead to financial losses.

Paramount just did the PRUDENT, fiscally responsible move. We can wait for the inevitable BD release of Bee Movie.LOL.... you can go ahead and discount that "my $27" wouldn't make a difference to them anyway. I beg to differ. Start doing business with your mentality and you will be shut down real quick. Not to mention that Paramount has been the company leading the way in poor decision making through this entire HDM format battle. I'm not sure how you claim the move is prudent. At this point if they already have the discs pressed, packaged, and PO's cut, why not send them out to the retailers who did purchase and plan to sell them and make something off of them? It's always bad business to turn down sales on product you already produced as long as there isn't a liability involved. The other thing it shows is how poorly Paramount honors their contractual agreements. They have no problem taking Toshiba's money for doing absolutely nothing. Oh well, I guess that's what Paramount has done the whole time. Don't expect them to be leading the way in Blu-Ray releases anytime soon. Their HDM division sucks balls.

Well. it looks like Dreamworks officially canceled HD-DVD's. Bee Movie has been canceled

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/DreamWorks/Paramount/Industry_Trends/Paramount_Cancels_Majority_of_HD_DVD_Slate_(UPDATED)/1522

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/28/paramount-and-dreamworks-hd-dvd-support-ends-march-4/

Well. it looks like Dreamworks officially canceled HD-DVD's. Bee Movie has been canceled

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/DreamWorks/Paramount/Industry_Trends/Paramount_Cancels_Majority_of_HD_DVD_Slate_(UPDATED)/1522Yeah... it looks like the contractual agreement between Paramount/Dreamworks and Toshiba this entire thread is based on has dissolved.

I hate Hollywood. I'll never trust this companies again and hope that they will eventually go down the hill :mad:

Paramount/Dreamworks = Costumers = Idiots they can screw.

I hate Hollywood. I'll never trust this companies again and hope that they will eventually go down the hill :mad:

Paramount/Dreamworks = Costumers = Idiots they can screw.
I somewhat agree but why should studios release stuff on a dead format? Toshiba threw in the towel. Since no new hardware will be sold in the future why create software for non existent hardware? The current HD DVD base out their can not support future releases. Sounds like a good business decision by Paramount/Dreamworks.

They did the exact same thing to their Blu-Ray customers previously.

I think Warner Bros. shows a far better example, here.

why create software for non existent hardware? Do you know the definition of "non-existent'? :eek: Because I just went to Best Buy, Circuit City, and Amazon and they all say HD DVD exists.

I somewhat agree but why should studios release stuff on a dead format? Toshiba threw in the towel. Since no new hardware will be sold in the future why create software for non existent hardware? The current HD DVD base out their can not support future releases. Sounds like a good business decision by Paramount/Dreamworks.


Because last I checked, my HD DVD player didn't magically turn into a pile of dust at any time since all this went down.

What Paramount has done basically is forced me to buy the SD version and upconvert, since they haven't announced BD anything and I am not making my son wait.

Do you know the definition of "non-existent'? :eek: Because I just went to Best Buy, Circuit City, and Amazon and they all say HD DVD exists.You did all that just to respond to a post on a web site?:eek:

He should have used DEAD instead of non-existent. :rolleyes:

I somewhat agree but why should studios release stuff on a dead format? Toshiba threw in the towel. Since no new hardware will be sold in the future why create software for non existent hardware? The current HD DVD base out their can not support future releases. Sounds like a good business decision by Paramount/Dreamworks.

Better than throwing already pressed things into the bin.

BTW: Where is Al Gore? Now he could really do some promotion.

And why couldn't the HD-DVD consumer base keep things working? The Laserdisc base did.

Because last I checked, my HD DVD player didn't magically turn into a pile of dust at any time since all this went down.

What Paramount has done basically is forced me to buy the SD version and upconvert, since they haven't announced BD anything and I am not making my son wait.

More than likely you wont be having to wait for bluray release.
Rumor has it that Paramount will open the flood gates on March 4th and surprise us all (well surprise bluray fans that is) with bluray titles coming soon.

Im no insider and Im just stating an opinion.

You did all that just to respond to a post on a web site?:eek:

He should have used DEAD instead of non-existent. :rolleyes:I have no problem with it being called dead. It's much more factual, even though it's an obvious fanboy stab at HD DVD. The war is over. Move on and enjoy Blu-Ray rather than posting ad-hominem remarks for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of people and AVS will become a much nicer place to discuss technology.

Better than throwing already pressed things into the bin.
The question is, though, were any of the discs ever actually pressed? If I had been in the shoes of Universal, Paramount, or Dreamworks on January 4, it should have been fairly obvious what the likely results would be, and putting a moratorium on HD DVD development - and particularly in pressing discs - would have been a prudent move.

With a case like Blades of Glory on Blu-ray, we have physical proof that the discs were in fact produced. Not so with any of these upcoming titles.

And why couldn't the HD-DVD consumer base keep things working? The Laserdisc base did.
Laserdisc was a completely different animal than HD DVD. It had no viable competition in its market space for a very long time (almost 20 years). It had very high margins on the software ($50+ per LD was not unheard of), and it had a lot of exclusive content that never made it into home video in any other comparable form until DVD came around... actually there are still a handful of titles you can only get on LD (the most conspicuous being Song of the South).

HD DVD doesn't have that luxury.

Right now, it holds about 150-160 unique exclusive titles when looked at from an HDM standpoint (the other 250-300 titles being shared with Blu-ray), and with all remaining studios set to launch Blu-ray in the next few months, I think it's reasonable to assume that number will fall steadily as Universal titles start arriving on Blu-ray.

Software pricing for HD DVD has fallen through the floor; the studios almost have to give away the discs they've produced at this point. So the prospect of future support is small.

Even if a company like Dreamworks Animation wanted to continue support for HD DVD, without outside monetary incentives from Toshiba or some other source, what sort of market are they really looking at?

yeh, that $27 from you would make their fiscal year.

HDDVD releases were moving very little volume even before Toshiba waived the white flag. Any HDDVD movie released now would not even be carried by most retailers, and would just lead to financial losses.

Paramount just did the PRUDENT, fiscally responsible move. We can wait for the inevitable BD release of Bee Movie.

I guess you haven't heard that the bigest Hi Def media disc sold last week was "American Gangster" HD DVD.
What happened here, do you think?
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Universal/Disc_Sales/American_Gangster_HD_DVD_Tops_VideoScans_Weekly_High-Def_Disc_Sales_Chart/1526

Paramount may have not gotten a #1 seller with "Bee Movie" but If anything this should show them that It still would have sold.

I hate to see how much more they are lossing right now with the pull of "Sweeney Todd" as that could be a #1 aswell...

Oh well maybe they'll see next week when they see the sales on "Beowulf"

I guess you haven't heard that the bigest Hi Def media disc sold last week was "American Gangster" HD DVD.
What happened here, do you think?
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Universal/Disc_Sales/American_Gangster_HD_DVD_Tops_VideoScans_Weekly_High-Def_Disc_Sales_Chart/1526

Haha.... good find :D

I guess you haven't heard that the bigest Hi Def media disc sold last week was "American Gangster" HD DVD.
What happened here, do you think?
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Universal/Disc_Sales/American_Gangster_HD_DVD_Tops_VideoScans_Weekly_High-Def_Disc_Sales_Chart/1526

Paramount may have not gotten a #1 seller with "Bee Movie" but If anything this should show them that It still would have sold.

I hate to see how much more they are lossing right now with the pull of "Sweeney Todd" as that could be a #1 aswell...

Oh well maybe they'll see next week when they see the sales on "Beowulf"

They stopped releasing movies for that reason, don't want it to look like HD DVD is still a viable format especially the people at Toshiba. ;)

They stopped releasing movies for that reason, don't want it to look like HD DVD is still a viable format especially the people at Toshiba. ;)

I'm glad you chipped in the ;), because a seriously made statement like that would have left people speechless.

More than likely you wont be having to wait for bluray release.
Rumor has it that Paramount will open the flood gates on March 4th and surprise us all (well surprise bluray fans that is) with bluray titles coming soon.

Im no insider and Im just stating an opinion.

Hopefully it will be an interesting week.:D

I guess you haven't heard that the bigest Hi Def media disc sold last week was "American Gangster" HD DVD.
What happened here, do you think?
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Universal/Disc_Sales/American_Gangster_HD_DVD_Tops_VideoScans_Weekly_High-Def_Disc_Sales_Chart/1526

Paramount may have not gotten a #1 seller with "Bee Movie" but If anything this should show them that It still would have sold.

I hate to see how much more they are lossing right now with the pull of "Sweeney Todd" as that could be a #1 aswell...

Oh well maybe they'll see next week when they see the sales on "Beowulf"

It's not a secret that the disks that are pulled are gone because Toshiba no longer subsidizes the authoring and creation. Supposedly the fixed costs including compression, aacs are high, meaning unless there is certainty they can recover the costs and make enough to pay people's salaries, there's not much point in making a disk, especially for a format that is already finished.

It's not a secret that the disks that are pulled are gone because Toshiba no longer subsidizes the authoring and creation. Supposedly the fixed costs including compression, aacs are high, meaning unless there is certainty they can recover the costs and make enough to pay people's salaries, there's not much point in making a disk, especially for a format that is already finished.

Yeah, releasing a couple more HD DVDs would have bankrupted Paramount & Dreamworks wouldn't it? :rolleyes: Besides, The Bee Movie HD DVDs have already been produced and there are reports that the odd shop here and there got copies. And we know for a fact that happened with The Jack Ryan Collection so why can't they sell at least those? (And Sweeney Todd please! :D )

Yeah, releasing a couple more HD DVDs would have bankrupted Paramount & Dreamworks wouldn't it? :rolleyes: Besides, The Bee Movie HD DVDs have already been produced and there are reports that the odd shop here and there got copies. And we know for a fact that happened with The Jack Ryan Collection so why can't they sell at least those? (And Sweeney Todd please! :D )

But if they sell those then they'll be losing out on sales of the same titles on Blu-ray in a few weeks.

Yeah, releasing a couple more HD DVDs would have bankrupted Paramount & Dreamworks wouldn't it? :rolleyes: Besides, The Bee Movie HD DVDs have already been produced and there are reports that the odd shop here and there got copies. And we know for a fact that happened with The Jack Ryan Collection so why can't they sell at least those? (And Sweeney Todd please! :D )

I think studios want to make money, so even operations that can marginally bring in some small net earnings, if they don't have strategic reasons for continuing, will get chopped so they don't take up the time or attention of senior management.

IE: if there is no business justification for a project to continue, then the project will be stopped. When you think about it, even mentioning the hd version in print or on tv has some costs associated (even if the cost is originally carried by the DVD release).

If their original deal was that all advertising costs for mentioning the red version (even in a DVD release) was paid by someone else, after toshiba's announcement, viacom would likely try to find out if the arrangement still stands. If the arrangement no longer stands, then it becomes very very easy to stop each outstanding project.

Companies are not charities, each one has to make money to pay people's salaries, management time also cannot be distracted by inconsequential little things that don't bring in more business.

More than likely you wont be having to wait for bluray release.
Rumor has it that Paramount will open the flood gates on March 4th and surprise us all (well surprise bluray fans that is) with bluray titles coming soon.

Im no insider and Im just stating an opinion.

Well, after they disgusting lies on the last HD DVD titles hell will be frozen over before I buy any Paramount titles new - aftermarket, perhaps, that means they get zero money. OTOH they had only 1-2 interesting titles anyway...

But if they sell those then they'll be losing out on sales of the same titles on Blu-ray in a few weeks.

So? Sales are sales, why does it matter if it's sold on HD DVD or Blu-Ray? Besides, they'll be losing more HD DVD sales. Do you think every HD DVD owner is going to buy a Blu-Ray player in the next few weeks? Lol! I can guarantee you they've lost 2 sales right here for Bee Movie and Sweeney Todd. (Unless my Bee Movie does slip through. Oh, and apparently Warner is releasing Sweeney Todd on HD DVD here in the UK in a couple of months. But you get my point.)

I think studios want to make money, so even operations that can marginally bring in some small net earnings, if they don't have strategic reasons for continuing, will get chopped so they don't take up the time or attention of senior management.

IE: if there is no business justification for a project to continue, then the project will be stopped. When you think about it, even mentioning the hd version in print or on tv has some costs associated (even if the cost is originally carried by the DVD release).

If their original deal was that all advertising costs for mentioning the red version (even in a DVD release) was paid by someone else, after toshiba's announcement, viacom would likely try to find out if the arrangement still stands. If the arrangement no longer stands, then it becomes very very easy to stop each outstanding project.

Companies are not charities, each one has to make money to pay people's salaries, management time also cannot be distracted by inconsequential little things that don't bring in more business.

Then why did Paramount release Sleepy Hollow and Bringing Out The Dead on Laserdisc in 2001? How well did they sell? :confused:

I think studios want to make money, so even operations that can marginally bring in some small net earnings, if they don't have strategic reasons for continuing, will get chopped so they don't take up the time or attention of senior management.

IE: if there is no business justification for a project to continue, then the project will be stopped. When you think about it, even mentioning the hd version in print or on tv has some costs associated (even if the cost is originally carried by the DVD release).

If their original deal was that all advertising costs for mentioning the red version (even in a DVD release) was paid by someone else, after toshiba's announcement, viacom would likely try to find out if the arrangement still stands. If the arrangement no longer stands, then it becomes very very easy to stop each outstanding project.

Companies are not charities, each one has to make money to pay people's salaries, management time also cannot be distracted by inconsequential little things that don't bring in more business.

You do mean the outrageous CEO salary's right

Then why did Paramount release Sleepy Hollow and Bringing Out The Dead on Laserdisc in 2001? How well did they sell? :confused:

Not well... But at that time, you could actually press 2000 LD's and turn a profit. Althought it was a small one.

fitprod

This thread should be closed as the title is no longer representative of the facts.

Then why did Paramount release Sleepy Hollow and Bringing Out The Dead on Laserdisc in 2001? How well did they sell?There was a market of around 2 million Laserdisc players in just the US compared to 1 million HD DVD players worldwide but only Paramount could tell you how well those titles sold. Also the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laserdisc) on Laserdisc says those two titles were released in North America in the year 2000.

There was a market of around 2 million Laserdisc players in just the US compared to 1 million HD DVD players worldwide but only Paramount could tell you how well those titles sold. Also the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laserdisc) on Laserdisc says those two titles were released in North America in the year 2000.

OK, so I got the date wrong, 2000 not 2001. Still, how many of the Laserdisc players that were sold were actually being used in 2000? And to fitprod, I'm sure Paramount could sell more than 2000 HD DVDs of new movies but lets say they just sold 2000, why could they make a profit from 2000 LDs but not 2000 HD DVDs? I would have thought that LDs would cost more to make. Also I just read on one of these threads that Dreamworks have changed their mind and are actually releasing The Bee Movie! I guess the sales of American Gangster and Beowulf made them reconsider? :D

Well, after they disgusting lies on the last HD DVD titles hell will be frozen over before I buy any Paramount titles new - aftermarket, perhaps, that means they get zero money. OTOH they had only 1-2 interesting titles anyway...
This is creepily similar to comments posted on or around August 20th.

Why were Paramount titles good enough to buy prior to now, rather than after the previous (and virtually identical) treatment that Blu-ray owners got from them? Were you so offended at their lack of follow-through on promised titles then that you refused to buy their titles over the holidays? :)

I love how by the 3rd or 4th page, every thread on AVS turns into a troll-bashing session, and if I try to make a new thread, I will just be directed here.

DOES ANYBODY KNOW IF/WHEN SHREK WILL COME TO BLU-RAY?

I love how by the 3rd or 4th page, every thread on AVS turns into a troll-bashing session, and if I try to make a new thread, I will just be directed here.

DOES ANYBODY KNOW IF/WHEN SHREK WILL COME TO BLU-RAY?

If? Quite sure.
When? Hopefully by December.

"As you know, we have been well-compensated for our support." I found this comment interesting particularly since many on this forum claimed Dreamworks was never compensated and it was just a rumor.Of COURSE they were compensated. Along with Warner Bros, Paramount, and Fox.

Just because the mods and a so called Sony insider on these boards made every attempt to subdue those truths as rumor, anyone who knows business knows deals were cut and sides were taken. Nature of the beast, and we live with it. This format war was never up to the consumers to decide.

Of COURSE they were compensated. Along with Warner Bros, Paramount, and Fox.

Just because the mods and a so called Sony insider on these boards made every attempt to subdue those truths as rumor, anyone who knows business knows deals were cut and sides were taken. Nature of the beast, and we live with it. This format war was never up to the consumers to decide.

Well, I'm glad you went all the way back to 2/26 to revive this issue....

Well, I'm glad you went all the way back to 2/26 to revive this issue....

It's been know for a very long time that Paramount was bribed into going against the vast majority of earlier adopters.

It's also been know for a while that Warner sided with the vast majority with the goal to end the war and they were successful :D

So when is Paramount's contract up anyways? I'd like Face Off and a few other titles for my blu-ray .I didn't want the HD DVD version and I didn't want to have to pay extra premium to import the superior oversease blu-ray version last year.

Please lock this thread so it can RIP.