There has been much discussion of the impact a Radiance XD has on the video chain of the C3X1080/HT5000 (I believe they both use the same internal processor) both good and bad.

Art, Coldmachine, and Alan G., have seen no apparent benefit in fact somewhat of a negative impact was reported.

The only points I have read in favor of the Radiance were pretty trivial to say the least:

1)It makes a good switcher
2)I got a good deal on it (Sorry Steve B.)
3)The future updates offered by Lumagen are fantastic, this piece is a work in progress.

I am not trying to be negative about the Radiance XD ( I also own one ) but perhaps with the Sim2 internal processing it is not needed and might have a negative impact.

Can the Radiance XD Gamma and Color adjustment improve on the Sim2 color management software?

So what really are the benefits?

Perhaps I am missing something

In a nut shell.

Art

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13237315#post13237315

The internal processing in the Sim is indeed first class. You will notice a cleaner sharper image bypassing all external VPs.
I choose to still use a VP for its conveniences. I dont think using the Lumagen will disappointed in anyway and it compliments what ever projector you couple it to as its a tweakers dream come true but if you want to squeeze the Max PQ out of your Sim go straight into it.

Rather than get into specific VP detail, I'll try to explain the overall picture as I see it. There are 3 main factors at play here.

1. The gap between external and internal VP has closed considerably over the last couple of years. Thats part of it.

2. Technical ability. Most PJ manufacturers just don't have the ability (or willingness to pay for the ability) to write their own software. This is a very expensive process and its passed on to the customer. Companies that occupy a lower market segment are not interested in anything that doesn't make its way onto a very short spec sheet. They cant afford to, its not their customer profile. People know that Sim comes with a dollar hit, and that theres far more going on under the bonnet than normal. As a simple example, look at the, almost insane, flexibility of the Aspect Ratio control and the number of memories and their ability to fire triggers on an individual AR basis etc. The VP on these machines is written by some serious dudes at the top of their game. Other domestic PJ companies just don't have that ability, and their optical department is the same. The HT5000's optical design is justly admired in the PJ world.

3. Attitude. Most companies update and upgrade policy is "Fu*k you, buy the next model". On the 1080 the MC adjustment arrived pretty quick. Look at the CMS thats been produced and is being improved. You then have the daddy of them all.......... for $1k or so, a D80 or HT3000 owner can have the upgrade to "e" status. For $1k you get double the D65 lumen, big increase in contrast etc and a new frikkin bulb. Thats a new projector for $1k. No upgrade of that caliber has ever been done before. A number of D80 and HT3000 owner were for buying entire "e" models before they were aware of the upgrades that would be made available. The company took a potential PJ sales hit. They care about the machines and the customers. They're not perfect ,but they do actually give a sh*t.

Funny story here..........I had the opportunity to tour the factory a while back. We had a really cool, but slightly deranged engineer show us round. We were looking at a batch of C3X's going in for final test. Some douche pipes up "do you use high gain screens". The Engineer said " High gain is so vulgar, very American.Always with the supersize me". He paused and said "We are not McDonalds, and these are certainly not Big Macs." He then looked at the group and said "Any more questions". Basically he'd just called us all asswipes. I loved that guy

Thanks Art, Alan and Coldmachine, I pretty much figured your response, I see no real reason to keep the Radiance XD in the chain with the HT5000.

The Radiance XD certainly has benefits for other digital projectors with lesser internal processing and or no color management system. The XD is also great for CRT's.

Perhaps Jim Petterson or Gordon would like to chime in with any benefits I am missing before I put the Radiance XD up for sale on AVS marketplace

Cold, good story. You cant argue his analogy, love it!

Thanks Art, Alan and Coldmachine, I pretty much figured your response, I see no real reason to keep the Radiance XD in the chain with the HT5000.


With the HT5000 its even less important as you have 6 HDMIs.

CM:

I was just thinking about the 6 HDMI inputs and if it was even worth running another 5 HDMI cables vs just getting a HDMI switcher

Lumagen will certainly be implementing a "pass through" for the Radiance. So one will be able to simply use it as a most convenient switcher for Blue Ray, HD DVD, and even DVD assuming those sources are the cleanest.

What what about DirecTV? Will the Radiance noise reduction features have an advantage vs those in the Sim2 projectors????

CM:

I was just thinking about the 6 HDMI inputs and if it was even worth running another 5 HDMI cables vs just getting a HDMI switcher

If you are throwing down the cheese for an HT5000 you may want to have each input calibrated to its source.

If not, get a Zektor switch. I can attest to their uberness.

http://www.zektor.com/hdmi5/specs.htm

If you are throwing down the cheese for an HT5000 you may want to have each input calibrated to its source.

If not, get a Zektor switch. I can attest to their uberness.

http://www.zektor.com/hdmi5/specs.htm

Take Colds advice grab a Zektor.. I just installed one a week ago. This is THE best quality Ive seen in a switcher in a long time. You can relax without any worries your losing PQ.

If you are throwing down the cheese for an HT5000 you may want to have each input calibrated to its source.

If not, get a Zektor switch. I can attest to their uberness.

http://www.zektor.com/hdmi5/specs.htm


I agree, the ability to calibrate each source within the HT5K is a plus. Although I originally thought I might have a problem with many so many cable runs, it worked out fine. I also like the direct connection aspect of each cable to the PJ (not saying "pass through" is an issue).

Jim

If you are throwing down the cheese for an HT5000 you may want to have each input calibrated to its source.

If not, get a Zektor switch. I can attest to their uberness.

http://www.zektor.com/hdmi5/specs.htm

"Uberness?"

You are hanging around Cinemax too much?????

"Uberness?"

You are hanging around Cinemax too much?????

Its actually just something that was said to me when laying some pipe.:D

CM JLGlaw sound advice

Its actually just something I heard when laying some pipe.:D

You've been going out with Cinemax's gals, huh? I'd be careful. He probably did the whole house jig for Tony Soprano's Florida home.:D

FWIW, the old Sim2 768 LCD panel was the best LCD panel I'd ever seen up to that point (and may still be) because of their superb video processing. Price was somewhat absurd, but it was well beyond anything I'd seen.

Just ordered 5 more HDMI cables....

Just ordered 5 more HDMI cables....

Are you also renovating your room to run more in wall conduits for the HDMI cables. How long do you need for your HDMI cables?

Projector mount will probably be within 2-4' of where my G90 was mounted so no renovation needed, I will just run in wall, I have replaced the cables RGBHV many times so I have it down to a science, running 4 -25' HDMI from HT5000 to equipment closet and 2 50' HDMI cables from HT5000 to media room Blu-ray and HD DVD players

This piece here is giving me a real Chubby but I need to control myself http://www.crestron.com/products/show_products.asp?jump=1&model=DVPHD-QUAD

This piece here is giving me a real Chubby but I need to control myself http://www.crestron.com/products/show_products.asp?jump=1&model=DVPHD-QUAD

Yikes. Imagine something like that with a 2160p projector and 4 1080p input sources. How would anyone get any work done?

If you are throwing down the cheese for an HT5000 you may want to have each input calibrated to its source.

If not, get a Zektor switch. I can attest to their uberness.

http://www.zektor.com/hdmi5/specs.htm

I agree, the ability to calibrate each source within the HT5K is a plus. Although I originally thought I might have a problem with many so many cable runs, it worked out fine. I also like the direct connection aspect of each cable to the PJ (not saying "pass through" is an issue).

Jim

How would HDMI audio be handled with each source connected directly to the HDMI inputs of the HT5000?

How would HDMI audio be handled with each source connected directly to the HDMI inputs of the HT5000?

Trial & Error, Luck, & Prayer.

For HDMI audio, try running the component HDMI into your audio HDMI processor, then out from the processor to the projector. Hopefully this will work.

Trial & Error, Luck, & Prayer.

For HDMI audio, try running the component HDMI into your audio HDMI processor, then out from the processor to the projector. Hopefully this will work.

Can't do that running Inputs directly to projector ( each input calibrated to source) unless the HDMI processor is a matrix switcher

Funny story here..........I had the opportunity to tour the factory a while back. We had a really cool, but slightly deranged engineer show us round. We were looking at a batch of C3X's going in for final test. Some douche pipes up "do you use high gain screens". The Engineer said " High gain is so vulgar, very American.Always with the supersize me". He paused and said "We are not McDonalds, and these are certainly not Big Macs." He then looked at the group and said "Any more questions". Basically he'd just called us all asswipes. I loved that guy

....funny story CM. Guess I should ditch my HP. Speaking of screens, what are you guys using with this PJ?

....funny story CM. Guess I should ditch my HP. Speaking of screens, what are you guys using with this PJ?

My screen arrives Monday, will be mounted Tuesday. I've been using my black textured wall. Aside from the texture, picture looks darn good on this crappy blow light all over wall. My friend Lon came over and his jaw dropped how good it looked. Once the screen comes his head will likely pop off it will be so jaw dropping fantastic!!

Just think if we could invent a flat black wall paint, 1.0 or more gain. You could just have a flat black wall, project the picture, and no need for any masking, as the black wall auto masks outside the active picture!!!

This piece here is giving me a real Chubby but I need to control myself http://www.crestron.com/products/show_products.asp?jump=1&model=DVPHD-QUAD
It works flawlessly, it's a VERY cool piece.

It works flawlessly, it's a VERY cool piece.
Other than the obvious industrial-"command center" type applications for this device, what if any are the residential applications?

You can watch four different games at once and switch to just one full screen as you need. March madness baby. LIG is putting up a 81 x 144. So that would be four 40.5 x 72. Not so shabby for PIP.

255 user custom PIP modes 1 x 3, 2 x 2..., March Madness, NFL Sunday Ticket...,

Thanks guys... I feel like one of those callers on Mr. Obvious..

http://riz.vox.com/library/audio/6a00cd96fcbade4cd500d4142d73793c7f.html

Of course you need four eyes minimum for 4 PIP. However, two viewers solve this problem.

Now that The Bland and I are trucing with D'Etante home theater forum style, my brain is free to be innovative.

Today, got the 24p working with both my Panasonic BD30K Blu Ray and Integra HD DVD player. NICE!!!! Works with both my Lumagen Radiance or just through my Zektor HDMI 1.3 switcher.

I like the Radiance for DirecTV stuff. Yea its fine via Zektor straight to projector, but its better lookin' even thanks to the Radiance.

But yea, HD DVD and Blu Ray, particularly with 24P, look just a tad sharper direct via the Zektor switcher. You'd never know if you didn't look.

But its easy to get the benefit of both. I run my DirecTV HDMI, D-VHS component, Theta Compli DVD SDI (using a AJA SDI to HDMI adapter) into the Radiance. I run Blu Ray and HD DVD via HDMI to the Integra 9.8 preamp/processor (thanks to Mark Haflich for getting me that, he even got a few extra in stock now and no one has them except if you order and wait)
and then HDMI from Integra straight to Zektor. And I connect HDMI from Radiance output into a Zektor input, and then HDMI from Zektor to the projector.

HA! HA! Works great!!!!!

Lon, There's your solution. HA!!!

This is what ya call THE BLAND/ART SONNEBORN SOLUTION. THE BLAND LUVS THE RADIANCE AND ART WANTS NO PROCESSOR JUST THE PROJECTOR! I GET THE BEST OF BOTH!

My 127" wide Cinemascope screen is cool - but not as wide as The Bland's 168" one. TRUCE!!!

Peace rules:)

Stevie:

Running all Directv HDMI into Radiance, running HD DVD and Blu Ray Direct into HT5000 @ 1080P24, also ran 3 more HDMI cables to compare Directv direct vs Direct to HT5000

Stevie:

Running all Directv HDMI into Radiance, running HD DVD and Blu Ray Direct into HT5000 @ 1080P24, also ran 3 more HDMI cables to compare Directv direct vs Direct to HT5000

And the result of Radiance vs direct to HT5000 for DirecTV???

Will let you know, but I am guessing Radiance wins

And Lon, let us know what you see that resulted in that finding.:)

Art

And Lon, let us know what you see that resulted in that finding.:)

Art

With the Radiance, "Girls Gone Wild" jumped off the screen, locked the room,
and then proceeded to do their Elliot Spitzer dance.

Steve:

Did Mark H tell you all my secrets?

And Lon, let us know what you see that resulted in that finding.:)

Art

Will do Art, still making lots of adjustments to the setup so it may be some time before I A/B Radiance vs Direct.


Has anyone struggled like my programmer has getting the HT5000 to play nice with RS232 control?

Also having a major problem flashing new software to the HT5000

Steve:

Did Mark H tell you all my secrets?

With the Radiance, "Girls Gone Wild" jumped off the screen, locked the room,
and then proceeded to do their Elliot Spitzer dance.

My friend Elliot told me this one!!

Alan and Art said their experience is that withthe Radiance, HD DVD or Blu Ray are just a tad sharper direct to the projector THAN through the Radiance.

Lumagen anticipates having a pass through feature in the future which would turn off the minimum processing/noise reduction so this shouldn't be an issue.

However, as another approach, the Radiance has excellent sharpness controls which give you great flexibility. I was watching some "Planet Earth" HD DVD, I experimented just using the Zektor HDMI switcher vs using the Radiance, and I think that by just adding a tinge of sharpness of various types that the picure equals or exceeds that by direct.

Will be trying this some from time to time over the coming weeks. But I think the Radiance's sharpness flexibility may well more than compensate.

Nice to see someone else heeding the word on the Zektor switches. I've been recommending them, and their MAS7, to everyone who needs a switch. Alan is also hot for them.

Right... The Lumagen applies some processing from the get go in the current iteration..but the large pallet of features to tweak the picture and allow for a very sophisticated calibration, to me, make this completely worth the trade off. Just like I use DSPs to tweak the sound rather than letting the sound simply go as is from the processor (a mistake). I dig the piece. When it graduates from Beta, then as Steve pointed out, you can directly input the sources to a complete pass through if you like with zero processing... but that may be a waste. That said, I am pleased as punch so far. I can't imagine running 1080P24 as a complete pass through with all of the features at hand. It is more bullet proof as an HDMI switcher than anything I have tried plus you get a world class processor to boot. Two HDMI outs as well. A no brainer..

Right... The Lumagen applies some processing from the get go in the current iteration..but the large pallet of features to tweak the picture and allow for a very sophisticated calibration, to me, make this completely worth the trade off. Just like I use DSPs to tweak the sound rather than letting the sound simply go as is from the processor (a mistake). I dig the piece. When it graduates from Beta, then as Steve pointed out, you can directly input the sources to a complete pass through if you like with zero processing... but that may be a waste. That said, I am pleased as punch so far. I can't imagine running 1080P24 as a complete pass through with all of the features at hand. It is more bullet proof as an HDMI switcher than anything I have tried plus you get a world class processor to boot. Two HDMI outs as well. A no brainer..

Using only the Zektor switcher, I have some handshake issues and have to turn stuff off and on more than once at times before the picture makes it through. No such issue with the Radiance.

Will do Art, still making lots of adjustments to the setup so it may be some time before I A/B Radiance vs Direct.


Has anyone struggled like my programmer has getting the HT5000 to play nice with RS232 control?

Also having a major problem flashing new software to the HT5000

At least as of now, I'm not using RS232 control so no input there but several times loading software was an issue. It would take several tries and would lock up before completing.

Art

With the Radiance, "Girls Gone Wild" jumped off the screen, locked the room,
and then proceeded to do their Elliot Spitzer dance.


Not so far fetched

BTW I am on the right, which of these 3 guys would you buy a used projector from?

Lon,
Are you and Elliot close ? I think you should start a new thread.:D

Art

And the result of Radiance vs direct to HT5000 for DirecTV???

Art and Steve:

I had a chance Thursday night to A/B Directv NCAA games @ 1080I direct to HT5000 vs Directv 1080i to Radiance and Radiance outputting 1080P to HT5000.

The NCAA games for some reason had a lot of video noise and the quality was sub par here is what I noticed

1) The HT5000 for some reason saw the Directv feed as 1080i 30
2) The Direct feed to the HT5000 exhibited greater video noise and more deinterlacing errors than Directv through the Radiance.
3) While both video was poor the Radiance produced a more watchable picture.
4) I set all the Niose reduction features and enhancements of both the HT5000 and Radiance to their factory default numbers.

When I get a chance later on today I will compare HDDVD and Bluray Direct to projector @ 1080P24 vs 1080P24 into Radiance and 1080p24 out of Radiance to HT5000.

Art and Steve:

I had a chance Thursday night to A/B Directv NCAA games @ 1080I direct to HT5000 vs Directv 1080i to Radiance and Radiance outputting 1080P to HT5000.

The NCAA games for some reason had a lot of video noise and the quality was sub par here is what I noticed

1) The HT5000 for some reason saw the Directv feed as 1080i 30
2) The Direct feed to the HT5000 exhibited greater video noise and more deinterlacing errors than Directv through the Radiance.
3) While both video was poor the Radiance produced a more watchable picture.
4) I set all the Niose reduction features and enhancements of both the HT5000 and Radiance to their factory default numbers.

When I get a chance later on today I will compare HDDVD and Bluray Direct to projector @ 1080P24 vs 1080P24 into Radiance and 1080p24 out of Radiance to HT5000.

FWIW - there is no true pass thru in the Radiance yet, so, you will get some processing.. I would expect the direct feed would look 'better' / 'truer' than the Radiance until a direct pass thru is employed. That said, unless the source requires you to add some processing (sharpness, etc.), direct would be the desired input.

Lon,
Do you have MI 3 ? If so I'll give you a couple of fun places to do some comparisons.

Art

No Art but I will pick up later, I agree with the Bland as I said before my guess is Direct HDDVD and BLURAY @ 1080p24 to HT5000 will produce the sharpest picture and for Directv 1080I, 720P and 480I through the Radiance will be best

There are some things I'd be interested in having you look at. If these are better with the radience than for my needs I might get one if not I doubt that for DVD ,BD or HDDVD ( the vast majority of my viewing) it would make any difference. The HT 5000 has very very good processing but not perfect.

Art

Will do Art. What would you like me to look at? Working on the room today, needed to line the port hole cone area that was built for sound proofing and to block out any light when the closet is used with Black Velvet as we got a little stray light reflecting off the shinny black sound proofing material from the projector.

1) The HT5000 for some reason saw the Directv feed as 1080i 30

I see this as well when the source is a Kaleidescape player. I've asked, but still don't know what causes this in the 5000. It hasn't affected the image or playback at all, but I'd still like to know the cause.

Jim

Last night I watched The Lookout Bluray edition direct out native 1080P24 from Sony BDPS1 directly into HT5000. I was totally distracted by what I thought might have been film grain but what was evidently video noise. The video noise was most apparent in the darker scenes against lighter objects. The brightly lit scenes were noise free.

This morning I decided to A/B the same movie as follows:

A)1080P24 Direct into HT5000
B)1080P24 into Radiance XD, 1080P24 out of Radinace into HT5000. All radiance enhancements set to default.

The results were dramatic, the Radiance cleaned up the video noise to near perfect, there was of course some very very minor loss in detail BUT as far as my viewing priorities the loss of detail was much less signifant than the elimination of the video noise. The Radiance dramaticly increased my viewing pleasure for this movie.

I will try to take some screenshots of the A/B showing exactly the reduction of video noise and also the resulting loss in detail.

Last night I watched The Lookout Bluray edition direct out native 1080P24 from Sony BDPS1 directly into HT5000. I was totally distracted by what I thought might have been film grain but what was evidently video noise. The video noise was most apparent in the darker scenes against lighter objects. The brightly lit scenes were noise free.

This morning I decided to A/B the same movie as follows:

A)1080P24 Direct into HT5000
B)1080P24 into Radiance XD, 1080P24 out of Radinace into HT5000. All radiance enhancements set to default.

The results were dramatic, the Radiance cleaned up the video noise to near perfect, there was of course some very very minor loss in detail BUT as far as my viewing priorities the loss of detail was much less signifant than the elimination of the video noise. The Radiance dramaticly increased my viewing pleasure for this movie.

I will try to take some screenshots of the A/B showing exactly the reduction of video noise and also the resulting loss in detail.


Not quite sure what to make of this observation. I understand what you said, however just how much detail was lost? Was it akin to slightly de-focusing the projector? The fact that the video noise vanished, with out use of any of the LUMAGEN software for MPEG, etc., is interesting, however one would think there should be ZERO difference in that respect, unless you did indeed have some of the LUMAGEN's software activated. Interesting observation,though.

CHEERS, TC

There is some noise reduction from the software even when it is set to default