I want use my Mac as the centerpiece for a whole house audio distribution system. Is it better to buy a fixed multizone amp/controller combo (Niles, Russound, etc) and then try to get the Mac to control that via RS-232? Or is there a slicker option?

I'm planning on having an iPod Touch in each room as the controller sending commands via WLAN to the Mac to control songs. I really only need 2 different zones. Maybe it's better to just get two Mac Minis with each one serving a specific zone.

-Jason

All you need is one Mac with a massive iTunes music library, a bunch of AirPort Expresses scattered about the house, and the software called Remote Buddy. The only thing it won't currently do is multi-speaker broadcasting, but I think you can blame that on Apple. Their interface is very strange for multi-speaker and probably not accessible to developers.

I should have included to get the iPod Touch as planned as it works beautifully with Remote Buddy.

But can you send one song/source for AP Express #1, then a different song/source to AP Express #2 from a single Mac?

I'll throw a suggestion out there... Ambrosia software's AirFoil. Allows you to send any audio from the Mac to an AP Express or AppleTV acting as a remote speaker.

I have my house set up this way. I use AP Express modules in 2 rooms, a Mac Mini in the Den, an iMac in the Kitchen, an iMac in the spare bedroom and a PC in my office using Airfoil (Speaker and main software) to control the whole system. Only drawback is that you can only send one source to all of them at once but it works great.

But can you send one song/source for AP Express #1, then a different song/source to AP Express #2 from a single Mac?

yes.

Only drawback is that you can only send one source to all of them at once but it works great.

Actually, even with just one Mac in the house if you set up a second user account--then you'll be able to send different songs to the two different Airport Expresses simultaneously. And with multiple Macs in the house you should have no problem sending different songs to different locations from one "controlling" Mac, especially if you're running Leopard--under it it's pretty effortless to share volumes and screens and control what the different Macs on your network are doing--in this case 2 of them sending different songs to different destinations--all controlled via screen share.

yes.



Actually, even with just one Mac in the house if you set up a second user account--then you'll be able to send different songs to the two different Airport Expresses simultaneously. And with multiple Macs in the house you should have no problem sending different songs to different locations from one "controlling" Mac, especially if you're running Leopard--under it it's pretty effortless to share volumes and screens and control what the different Macs on your network are doing--in this case 2 of them sending different songs to different destinations--all controlled via screen share.

Actually you are correct it can be done using multiple Macs and Screen Share, just not as coherent as I would like.

Thanks for all of the suggestions thus far. My house is already wired for whole-house audio with all in-ceiling speakers and room controllers run to a central Dmark.

The biggest challenge is creating separate zones from the Mac output. I want each iPod Touch to control audio (on/off, volume) in that room specfically.

It's a simple problem with no easy solution. Right now I'm thinking about using Remote Buddy to control the zone switcher on a multi-room Amp via an IR convertor.

My other option is to use RB to control an AP Express for each zone. The AP Express can dump right into each zone of the multiroom amp as that zone's specific source. Then the Mac can control which AP Express is on and at what volume level. Any other thoughts?

I am looking into similar things right now.

My impression is that solution that are entirely based on a Mac are clumsy at best. If Apple would simply allow different streams to different Airport Expresses from one iTunes session, then it would be a no-brainer and absolutely fantastic. As it is right now, I would not use Airport Expresses but the Sonos system.

I don't know if you have looked into it, but here it goes: Sonos makes great hardware, it interfaces well with iTunes, and you can set up and control as many zones as you want (well, up to 32, I think) from one handheld controller or ten if you wish. It's not cheap, but from what I can gather, I don't think it would break your bank.

Best - MM

MM--by now, Sonos is old hat around here. We had a few champions of the technology, they gushed mostly in the digital media server & content streamers sub-forum. I always thought Sonos was too expensive, though I ended up spending much more than what a Sonos multi-zone system would cost, I just spent it on Macs at each display which can do lossless audio and high def video, and on tying everything together with a gigabit and wireless network that all my devices could use. It helped that I hung onto my AVRs and speakers as I upgraded them--just had to drop a Mac here or an Airport express there into every location and I was good to go.

My impression is that solution that are entirely based on a Mac are clumsy at best.

There are tradeoffs, certainly, but a Mac solution could hardly be called clumsy, especially if one has several Macs in the house.

If Apple would simply allow different streams to different Airport Expresses from one iTunes session, then it would be a no-brainer and absolutely fantastic.

Granted, this would be nice, but it can be accomplished with that little second user trick--albeit that trick is a little cumbersome. But, even that second user trick is unnecessary if you own several Macs and run Leopard. At the moment a 12" Powerbook is my multizone "Sonos" touchpad controller and it seamlessly communicates with every other Mac I have in the house. With a Mac or an aTV or an Airport Express in every zone, I think most of us would be quite content.

It's not cheap, but from what I can gather, I don't think it would break your bank.

And it's getting cheaper as Sonos has a promo pricing deal going on right now, and I'm sure they feel more than a little threatened by the more affordable Logitech/Squeezebox Duet. Someone from Logitech is pimpin that new gear here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=970055

And there's one user on that thread who tried the Airport express for his music, switched to Sonos and became quite the fanboy, then switched back to an Airport express and aTV solution. I think that's something else to consider, the aTV with this updated software is also changing the value equations of all of these things--and for most Mac home theater folks, the idea of a closed, music only transport system seems increasingly contraindicated. With aTVs readily available at $199, it's tough to pass them up.

Roku Soundbridge and Russound iBridge Bay look like good source options to port iTunes into the multizone amp. I agree that an aTV is a good option as well. I'm still trying to figure out how to get Remote Buddy to recognize each iPod Touch as the controller for a specific zone. That way iPodTouch-Kitchen only controls the kitchen source/volume, etc.

I may have to go with the iBridge by Russound and install a Russound home audio system. That way I have the Keypads for backup in case the Mac side crashes, the iPod Touch gets lost, etc.

Will the iBridge Bay allow "multi-source" output from itunes on the mac mini (ie. different songs or video playing in each zone at the same time)?

The nice thing about a (Niles, Russound, etc) is that you get nice control devices with meta data in each room. The problem is that you have to have a way to control your mac with the system. This is more common on Windows unfortunately, and the only thing I could find for mac was this.
http://www.futurehomesystems.com/russound_ibridge_bay.shtml

While the Airport Express sounds cool, as does the ATV, it's not very useful if you want to see what is playing in each room from a keypad. Sure, you could still control volume etc. Most of these things are pretty open, so you could probably write your own plug-in if you have programming experience.

Have you taken a look @ Airfoil? -http://rogueamoeba.com/airfoil/mac/

Have you taken a look @ Airfoil? -http://rogueamoeba.com/airfoil/mac/

Airfoil works great, I use it in my setup with Pandoraboy. Issue some of the preios posters have is that you can only have one source for your house easily. You can use multiple user accounts on the Mac to have multiple sources, but this is awkward, rather than a nice seemless setup.

Unfortunately, the iBridge Bay is just a fancy way of making iTunes on a mac a peripheral Russound device. This lets you control iTunes from Russound keypads and receive metadata feedback on your keypads (i.e what song is playing). It does not add any multi zone capabilities.

I am not familiar with a way to run multiple iTunes on the same machine by using different users. Can someone clarify this procedure.

Also, since Apple added the multiple library feature, I am not sure what is the technical reason the limit iTunes to only one instance.

Thanks,
Rolin

I am not familiar with a way to run multiple iTunes on the same machine by using different users. Can someone clarify this procedure.

Well, the different user trick works like this: hypothetically you only have one Mac and its iTunes library on your network, along with two Airport expresses and you want to stream different audio to those two locations. Getting the first stream going is easy, just open iTunes, select the first Airport express as a destination. To get the second stream going, create a second login account and enable fast user switching, and as that user, open iTunes and select the second Airport express for a stream. Granted, it's more proof of concept and cumbersome than elegant.

Also, since Apple added the multiple library feature, I am not sure what is the technical reason the limit iTunes to only one instance

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, but a multiple Mac household doesn't have this problem, and doesn't have to resort to the second user trick. Just screen-share in Leopard--you can have the desktop of a second Mac mounted and shared on your "main" Mac, tell it to send iTunes audio stream #1 in sync to any number of locations (local plus Airport Expresses or aTVs) and still have your local iTunes app open simultaneously sending a different audio stream to any other number of locations (also in sync) on the network. Of course, you can't get volume control within individual zones this way--it's all or nothing for the multiple locations on a stream--and it isn't recommended to raise and lower volume from within iTunes itself if you're using digital out.

When it comes to multiple Libraries, iTunes sucks. You can find so many threads on the Interwebs of people trying to mange this limitation it isn't even funny.

I think you'd almost be better off with multiple iPods. You could buy used ones off the Internet and sync your songs to them and then use the various docks available online that work with just about any multi-room audio system around. Then sync the same library to each iPod (4 iPods would equal 4 separate zones) and control them with each keypad in each zone.

This seems better (by better I mean more reliable) than running iTunes as four separate users on the same mac.

The other thing you could do is buy Apple TVs. They can be used like an iPod or like an Airport Express to stream. This gives you more flexibility and video zones as well. The problem here, is that you'd have to use IR to control them and I don't think you can get meta-data off of them for your keypads.

It's really too bad...

Apple could take over the whole house audio market in spades (well for those of us budget minded folks). I'm sure the biggest issue for Apple is how to make the UI clean and easy (lets face it thats what they do). Multizone audo and 'simple UI' go together like oil and water, its just that simple.... So Apple goes with the "if we cant do it right we don't do it" attitude.

But, imagine for just a second that Apple released a new version of iTunes that DID have the ability to stream multiple unique audio streams to multiple unique AirPort Expresses **BUT** left that functionality only available via AppleScript or perhaps (gasp) command line...

Heck, I'd be fine with that since I'm sure that in no time flat someone would build a rudimentary App that would provide us even some of the functionality we're all clamoring for -- and over time other developers would step up to improve on what was initially provided.

That would be nice... but as with most things... just cause you want it doesn't mean you'll get it. :(

Dave

The other thing you could do is buy Apple TVs. They can be used like an iPod or like an Airport Express to stream. This gives you more flexibility and video zones as well. The problem here, is that you'd have to use IR to control them and I don't think you can get meta-data off of them for your keypads.

Well you could also use something really neat like an iPod Touch... Yea price is starting to add up quick if you want a touch in every zone but 1 touch could be shared over a couple of zones if needed and removing the need for in-wall controllers (those ain't exactly cheap last I checked - even the most basic ones without any type of display) you'd be saving some coin there (not to mention the cost of wiring).

But someone could develop one kick-butt app for the touch that would be hands down the most impressive whole house audio (and video) controller ever seen... Scrolling album art and all! All the App would do (after a music selection is made) is send a command over IP to whatever AppleTV the App is configured to talk to and bang the music starts playing!

Dave

During the NCAA Tourney games, I've noticed that there sometimes is a different CBS channel 13 game feed on Comcast from what appears on CBS 13 via QAM. Why would this be?

if only it could be done easily. you could buy several external usb DACs and get high end sound out of one mac but someone just needs to make a really simple program that can send the audio in the different directions. it exists on pcs, all you need is a program that can choose the output device and easily switch between them. ARGH!

I have just installed ceiling speakers in 6 rooms and will be powering these with an HTD.com amp/distribution system. Just waiting on the newer keypads. I will stream the music from my NAS controlled from a Mac Mini running XBMC. I am planning to use a wireless handheld device like a Nokia or iTouch. This will utilize the XBMC web interface. :)

Just to get it straight - one is limited to one device if you use airport express? All I want is the same music all over sync'd (and to walk around with my (remote buddy) iPhone choosing songs and adjusting the volume - mostly just because I can). If I buy 2-3 Expresses, I have to choose 1 at a time? I can't have the same thing 'mirrored' on multiple Expresses? Thanks.

Just to get it straight - one is limited to one device if you use airport express? All I want is the same music all over sync'd (and to walk around with my (remote buddy) iPhone choosing songs and adjusting the volume - mostly just because I can). If I buy 2-3 Expresses, I have to choose 1 at a time? I can't have the same thing 'mirrored' on multiple Expresses? Thanks.

You can, using iTunes, connect to multiple AE units and play any iTunes song/Playlist/iRadio Station to all of them simultaneously. If you add Airfoil you can play sources other than iTunes. You can use RemoteBuddy to control the setup. The interface for RemoteBuddy is good for iTunes, but not so good for AirFoil. You can really only control Master Voume this way, not the volume to each zone.

Just to get it straight - one is limited to one device if you use airport express? All I want is the same music all over sync'd (and to walk around with my (remote buddy) iPhone choosing songs and adjusting the volume - mostly just because I can). If I buy 2-3 Expresses, I have to choose 1 at a time? I can't have the same thing 'mirrored' on multiple Expresses? Thanks.

Just like Chimpware said, you can play the same stream through several Airport Expresses, however, it's up in the air whether they will actually play at the same time! Because of different distances and different equipment used in different rooms, you may have slight delays. It probably won't matter much within a room, but you may get some echo effects when you are in an area where you can hear sound from two or more systems.

Best - MM

Spectacular guys thanks for the precise details. 'G' Expresses are cheap on Apple's refurb site (I have no 'N' gear and my iPhone will dumb it down to G anyway) so now I just have to count how many I need :)

Just like Chimpware said, you can play the same stream through several Airport Expresses, however, it's up in the air whether they will actually play at the same time! Because of different distances and different equipment used in different rooms, you may have slight delays. It probably won't matter much within a room, but you may get some echo effects when you are in an area where you can hear sound from two or more systems.

Best - MM

Actually I thought AirTunes adjusted the stream so the music was timed properly. I can say in my house with multiple AEs it is timed pretty wel, I cannot tell that there is any delay as I walk throughout the house.

Actually I thought AirTunes adjusted the stream so the music was timed properly. I can say in my house with multiple AEs it is timed pretty wel, I cannot tell that there is any delay as I walk throughout the house.

Yes, AirTunes is pretty good at that. However, it doesn't know about the equipment attached to the AEs. So, if you have, e.g., a DAC/preamp/amp/speaker system connected to one of them and simple powered speakers to another, you may get delays, because it takes the signal different amounts of time to travel through the attached systems and come out of the speakers.

Best - MM

Can I ask those of you with multiple AEs, do you have them wired on Ethernet or just in bridge mode wirelessly? I ask because I want to deploy several both for the AirTunes and also because the house is very unfriendly for wifi (concrete/steel construction) and I actually want the stronger signal in the various spots. Typically here in India wifi works 1 room away but not 2 or more rooms (or down stairs). So if I have to wire all of my wireless hubs it's not the end of the world and I'd actually end up with a fantastic wifi network - but I'd like to hear if my theoretical ideas hold up to your experience.

Also, if you only use them as wireless bridges, have you noticed an appreciable strengthening of your network? Does each AirTunes 'station' have a name that's distinct from the network SSID? Any issues with having multiple SSIDs on the same network (living room, bedroom etc.)?

Thanks!

Can I ask those of you with multiple AEs, do you have them wired on Ethernet or just in bridge mode wirelessly?

Wired using Cat 5e or more recently, Cat 6 Ethernet...A wired backbone between switches, modems and routers always will be more reliable. Ideally, you'd use the WiFi only for direct communications between the routers and iPods, iPhones and the notebook computers. If you also plan to use an AEX to extend your WiFi network to a weak signal area for Web surfing, I wouldn't even use the bridge mode, because it cuts the connection speed of the second (bridged) AEX by about 50%. Instead, you could set it up as a second access point (this then adds a second network to your setup).

I have mine (2 AEs) setup in Bridge Mode. Audio works fine, and network is extended and has more strength than without. I do not notice the speed reduction mentioned by gmwedding. I also use one as as a Game Adapter, in addition to AirTunes and Bridge, for my XBox running XMBC, and it has nice throughput for video content on my NAS.

Only issue I have run into is on my wife's laptop (IBM) my network shows up as 3 distinct APs each with the same name. This is not the case with other wireless devices I use including my Dell laptop, iTouch, PSP, BB Curve and Imac Al, all of which see only 1 AP.

Thanks for the helpful dialogue and input. After extensive research I've come up with only 2 real options for an iPhone controlled multizone home distribution system. My house is already wired for controllers in each room and has in-ceiling speakers.


1. iTunes as source for all content. Control iTunes via Remote Buddy, Telekinesis, or Signal


Radio via Griffin Radioshark
TV audio via EyeTV
Music and movies via iTunes library


System is really single source with single output into a multi-room amp. Zone audio level is controlled by volume control knob in each room.

Benefits

Cheap - minimal hardware to buy
Easy to program / script
Simple
No proprietary devices aside from Mac/iPod


Downsides

No keypad backup
No physical sources (Cable box, XM, etc.)
Presumably single stream (single source) output


Apple TV and Airport express are not options since speakers are in-ceiling wired to keypad location. Unless I could put AE inside the wall with an in-wall amp for each zone.


2. Traditional multi-source system with physical input selector. iPhone must control keypad which controls source switcher.

Cable box
CD Changer (does anyone use these anymore)
Radio Tuner
XM/Sirius
iPod / Apple TV / iTunes as source for music only



iPhone via XBMC/WiFi to MacMini running Remote Buddy. Output via IR blaster to a keypad mounted locally at the amp/distribution site. There is no easy way to control a multi-zone amp at the amp itself. All I've seen is remote controls for the keypad which means you have to mount a keypad at the amp site and only use it for the IR port. An amp mounted keypad would be required for each zone, but this would allow the iPhone to control the each zone independently.

Benefits

True multi-source switching
Minimal reliance on Mac/software
Allows multiple independent streams


Downsides

Will be tied to proprietary and soon outdated system Niles, Russound, etc.
Cumbersome
Likely will experience delay in switching


This option is pretty clunky, but I can't figure a better way to get a true multi-source distribution system to be controlled by the iPhone.

I welcome your thoughts! -JH

Thanks for the feedback, both of you. Are you guys using remote buddy in conjunction to your AE networks?

Thanks for the feedback, both of you. Are you guys using remote buddy in conjunction to your AE networks?

I have tried it, but do not use it normally. Typically I use AirFoil and PandoraBoy and just leave it on one channel.