http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/855/855555p1.html

Grand Theft Auto IV Hands-On
Liberty City is burning and we're to blame.
by Greg Miller and Hilary Goldstein
February 28, 2008 - Grand Theft Auto IV is, without question, one of the most highly anticipated games of 2008...

tl;dr

Please don't post entire copyrighted articles. I don't think anyone here wants to give AVS potential headaches.

I think it would be OK if you put up the link and a synopsis...

Other than that, I'm glad it runs well on both consoles. Lord knows this game is going to cause EPIC forum wars.

i wished they would upgrade the graphics. everything i've seen so far leaves me unimpressed.

Its not too exclusive. 1up has a hands on review too.

i wished they would upgrade the graphics. everything i've seen so far leaves me unimpressed.

GTA games have never been about the graphics, and it has never hurt them. Yes, they could spend more time honing in a smaller, tighter world (GoW), or they can do something that no one else can beat them at: making a vast, open world, that is not only filled with loads of content, but is actually FUN to explore. And they did say they made the world that is smaller than GTA:SA, but much more detailed.

Edit: This is coming from a guy who considers himself to be a pretty big graphics whore, but if the game is fun, the game is fun.

I literally cannot wait. That article just solidified that this is a first day purchase for me.

Please don't post entire copyrighted articles. I don't think anyone here wants to give AVS potential headaches.

actually alot of people appricate that because some of us can't access those other sites from our jobs..

i wished they would upgrade the graphics. everything i've seen so far leaves me unimpressed.Perhaps you just don't get GTA. Don't waste your time on GTAIV... GOW2 and R6V2 will be out soon! I hear the graphics are sweet!

For me, DAY 1. Loving all the itty bitty gameplay details and interaction.

Please don't post entire copyrighted articles. I don't think anyone here wants to give AVS potential headaches.Surely if it were Halo or COD4, it wouldn't be a problem. Why do people take GTAIV hatred to such a high level? It sure does bring out the haters.

^youre right. i never got the appeal of the whole series. brothers bought it and enjoyed it. i've tried to enjoy it, but i quickly get bored running jobs for people. if anything i like the series for its sandbox nature that it championed, however for gameplay i dont like it. it always seemed to me that it was a huge empty MMO.
if they could make a GTA MMO that I can get behind. however if all they're doing with this version is expanding San Andreas, upping the graphics just a little bit, and some DLC, then i think i'll pass.
maybe im just a little too old school for this. i feel i need a little more structure in a game. you know... get from point a to b, kill the enemy, level over.

Please don't post entire copyrighted articles. I don't think anyone here wants to give AVS potential headaches.

It's cited.

I think I'm going to finally pop in my copy of Vice City Stories and play through it, just to get back in that GTA frame of mind (althugh, in a neon 80's way rockin out to new wave).

FerSure like...nowayyyyyyy!

Surely if it were Halo or COD4, it wouldn't be a problem. Why do people take GTAIV hatred to such a high level? It sure does bring out the haters.

Doesn't matter what it is to me. I've gotten into this a couple of times before with others on AVS. Search my history. I've practically given it up, as it didn't seem to make a difference. One user in the PS forums had several of his posts edited to be appropriate (link plus excerpt) and was warned, and now just a couple of months later he's back to posting articles in their entirety. But it gets old and I guess it just takes being in the right mood at the right time to want to say something. I guess from now on I won't say anything & just use the report post function. That's probably the right way to handle it in the first place.

It's cited.

Not sure why that matters. The DMCA doesn't have a provision that allows copyright violations if you cite and link the original.

I'm sure this will turn into the same thing it did the last time I tried this, where a bunch of people say "Who cares?", and others point out that it helps those whose workplaces block the sites. The point is that it puts AVS in a potential legal predicament and it's strictly not allowed by AVS rules. It goes on a lot in the gaming forums and very little in the other forums on AVS. I like AVS a lot and I don't want to see it have problems with this sort of crap. All it takes is linking to some ******* that wants to pick a fight.

Not sure why that matters. The DMCA doesn't have a provision that allows copyright violations if you cite and link the original.

I'm sure this will turn into the same thing it did the last time I tried this, where a bunch of people say "Who cares?", and others point out that it helps those whose workplaces block the sites. The point is that it puts AVS in a potential legal predicament and it's strictly not allowed by AVS rules. It goes on a lot in the gaming forums and very little in the other forums on AVS. I like AVS a lot and I don't want to see it have problems with this sort of crap. All it takes is linking to some ******* that wants to pick a fight.I see your point.

So, any comments on the actual game? :rolleyes:

Sorry about the link. And here I was thinking I was doing something nice for you guys.....:(

I see your point.

So, any comments on the actual game? :rolleyes:

Sure. It sounds like they may have the best sandbox game to date. It's got the verticality of Crackdown (although not quite the same) along with what sounds to be a good cover system. They also took the aiming and GPS from Saints Row, which worked really well, and integrated the body specific aiming of Crackdown, which also worked really well. On top of that the previews are saying the story seems to start off very good and all the little details sound awesome (like the car suspensions, breaking out windows to steal cars and do drivebys, flying through the windshield in a wreck, getting drunk and stumbling around). I can't wait to see this game in person as it sounds like it will be a real winner. I wasn't so hot on San Andreas because of the constant need to make my character work out and eat food, but I've loved every other GTA. It sounds like this may have some of the RPG aspect of having your actions relating to others actually mean something throughout the game, but without the annoying aspects that San Andreas had.

Sure. It sounds like they may have the best sandbox game to date. It's got the verticality of Crackdown (although not quite the same) along with what sounds to be a good cover system. They also took the aiming and GPS from Saints Row, which worked really well, and integrated the body specific aiming of Crackdown, which also worked really well. On top of that the previews are saying the story seems to start off very good and all the little details sound awesome (like the car suspensions, breaking out windows to steal cars and do drivebys, flying through the windshield in a wreck, getting drunk and stumbling around). I can't wait to see this game in person as it sounds like it will be a real winner. I wasn't so hot on San Andreas because of the constant need to make my character work out and eat food, but I've loved every other GTA. It sounds like this may have some of the RPG aspect of having your actions relating to others actually mean something throughout the game, but without the annoying aspects that San Andreas had.Yeah, I'm pretty interested in this whole ATM machine addition, and the idea that you can keep objects in the trunk of a car is definitely moving towards RPG.

I think there will be lots of groundbreaking features not seen in other games. I played many hours of Oblivion, and the details that this game will include are much of what's missing from ES games IMHO.

That excites me much more than if they were just to add shine and glossy graphics to what was San Andreas. Maybe this will push other games to become a bit more randomly interactive and include more depth... rather than everything revolve around how realistic the game looks.

Yeah, I'm pretty interested in this whole ATM machine addition, and the idea that you can keep objects in the trunk of a car is definitely moving towards RPG.

I think there will be lots of groundbreaking features not seen in other games. I played many hours of Oblivion, and the details that this game will include are much of what's missing from ES games IMHO.

That excites me much more than if they were just to add shine and glossy graphics to what was San Andreas. Maybe this will push other games to become a bit more randomly interactive and include more depth... rather than everything revolve around how realistic the game looks.

+1
I'd go as far as to say that I'd trade Current-Gen graphics if it allowed for a more interactive/realistic/random experience.
Don't get me wrong, all about the visuals being pretty, but if the graphics have to suffer inorder to make the game a blast to play, I'm 100% willing to make that sacrafice.

Seeing as how you can go through the windshield in a wreck, how about an option to use the seatbelt?

And if you roll over and the police have your cornered, you could potentially be stuck if it won't unbuckle. Thats Awesome!!! These are the kinds of things that I want in a video game so badly....

And if you roll over and the police have your cornered, you could potentially be stuck if it won't unbuckle. Thats Awesome!!! These are the kinds of things that I want in a video game so badly....

As long as you have the option for a seatbelt to protect you in the event of a crash - fine...but I don't want to be forced to use a seatbelt so that if I do roll I'm stuck.

I can't believe how many people are complaining about graphics in GTA games. It's a full world where you can do almost *anything*...If you don't find pleasure or you get bored in games where you're free to do anything then you really enjoy dumbed-down mapped out games with only one possible flow through it...which is fine - just don't put down other games because they don't fit your tidy mold.

Can we still get hookers? That's really all that matters.

Can we still get hookers? That's really all that matters.

More importantly, can we still kill them after the services are rendered to get a refund?

Is there going to be a Live component to this game?

Nothing would be better than running around the city, with 100's of other people, killing each other.

I still would love to see a remake of Vice City for the 360... Now that would be awesome!

I'd like to see the PSP games on 360 :(

Preordered. I might even schedule a 24 hour virus that day. I have a ton of leave credit I need to use sometime.

I can't believe people are complaining about the graphics in this game, I have never seen a game this massive with so much to do look as good or as detailed as GTAIV. Does it look GeOW good? No but it doesn't look bad by any means. And when you compare it to the last generation of GTA games it's a far bigger and much more drastic jump than say Halo 2 to Halo 3.

As for the game I won't bother posting what I'm excited about since pretty much all the amazing things in this game have been brought up multiple times in this and the PS forum.

GTA games have never been about the graphics, and it has never hurt them. Yes, they could spend more time honing in a smaller, tighter world (GoW), or they can do something that no one else can beat them at: making a vast, open world, that is not only filled with loads of content, but is actually FUN to explore. And they did say they made the world that is smaller than GTA:SA, but much more detailed.

Edit: This is coming from a guy who considers himself to be a pretty big graphics whore, but if the game is fun, the game is fun.


Thats the problem though, GTA games look bad, run bad, play bad, and are no fun at all. I honestly cannot see why anyone loves this series, its nothing but a bunch of expanded Banjo-Tooieesqe Collect-a-thons held together by flimsy gameplay, even worse graphics, and enough expletive and violence filled "story" to make itself look "mature" to the trailer-park crowd.

Thats the problem though, GTA games look bad, run bad, play bad, and are no fun at all. I honestly cannot see why anyone loves this series, its nothing but a bunch of expanded Banjo-Tooieesqe Collect-a-thons held together by flimsy gameplay, even worse graphics, and enough expletive and violence filled "story" to make itself look "mature" to the trailer-park crowd.

Then don't play it, myself and many others quite enjoy the varied gameplay (you're rarely doing the same thing twice in the missions in GTA), big open world, and well told stories that unlike many other games are actually well acted with good voice talent. GTA is far from a collect-a-thon as well considering the only thing to collect are the hidden packages that you don't even have to bother with if you don't want to. Yes, the aiming system can make the gunplay frustrating at times but other than that most everything else is quite well done in the game, especially the driving portions. And from the sound of it a lot of the rough edges are being smoothed out in GTAIV like they started to do with San Andreas.

O and there's a difference between actually being mature and saturating your game in unnecessary violence, coarse language, and sexuality to cater to an immature audience. Games like GTA are the former as, for the most part, when they include these things it's relevant to what is taking place. Games like Postal are more like the latter. Don't speak of GTA as if it was Postal because you're flat out wrong.

But please if you don't enjoy a series, and from the sound of your description of it it sounds like you've hardly played any of them, then feel free to voice your opinion but don't make up a bunch of BS that you don't see fit to back up with any actual examples and then top it off with a personal attack on the people who do enjoy the series.

I thought that way, until I got San Andreas and had a blast with it.

I have played every GTA game released, I have more than tried to be fair to the series, but in the end I have found everyone to be a piss poor excuse of a game and yes IMO it caters almost exclusively to the Lower denominator caste of people and looking at the fools that I see pass through EB to reserve it does nothing but reinforce this opinion in my mind. GTA has done nothing at all to progress gaming, and in fact looking at all the drama it has spawned, it has single-handily cause more regression within gaming than 20 Mario games. If I want to play a mature title, I throw in Mass Effect, Lost Odyseey, Folklore, Xenogears, Panzer Dragoon Saga, or one of a thousand more mature titles, if my hillbilly cousin from Louisana is coming over, I'll throw in GTA4.

I have played every GTA game released, I have more than tried to be fair to the series, but in the end I have found everyone to be a piss poor excuse of a game and yes IMO it caters almost exclusively to the Lower denominator caste of people and looking at the fools that I see pass through EB to reserve it does nothing but reinforce this opinion in my mind. GTA has done nothing at all to progress gaming, and in fact looking at all the drama it has spawned, it has single-handily cause more regression within gaming than 20 Mario games.


GTA3 on the PS2 fundamentally changed how people played games. The only thing blinding you is your off-the-charts bias. After GTA people began to look at every game that came out and go "Wouldn't it be great if you could go ANYWHERE in this game?" or "It sure would be nice to have some vehicles to move around in". I can't believe your sweeping generalization that only lowlifes (thats basically what you are saying, right?) enjoy the game.

GTA 3 was revolutionary.....frankly I didn't enjoy the game that much, it took itself too seriously, but the gameplay elements were just fantastic.

Vice City was the crown jewel in the collection, because it was like a comedic Miami Vice episode ripped right out of 1985.

San Andreas was a little too gangbanger for my tastes, and I felt like their inclusion of so many side tasks actually muddied the waters a bit, so I never got into it enough to really play it to enjoyment....but some elements were definately keepers.


If I want to play a mature title, I throw in Mass Effect, Lost Odyseey, Folklore, Xenogears, Panzer Dragoon Saga, or one of a thousand more mature titles, if my hillbilly cousin from Louisana is coming over, I'll throw in GTA4.

I really don't get your point here...what is it, you don't like Mafia movies? (GTA3), you don't like Miami Vice? (Vice City), you don't like Boys-In-The-Hood type movies? (San Andreas)?? Because thats what all of these games are.

All of the games you mention above involve dishing out violence, so I'm not sure why you are down on the GTA games for that......

So tell us, why all the GTA Hate?

I have played every GTA game released, I have more than tried to be fair to the series, but in the end I have found everyone to be a piss poor excuse of a game and yes IMO it caters almost exclusively to the Lower denominator caste of people and looking at the fools that I see pass through EB to reserve it does nothing but reinforce this opinion in my mind. GTA has done nothing at all to progress gaming, and in fact looking at all the drama it has spawned, it has single-handily cause more regression within gaming than 20 Mario games. If I want to play a mature title, I throw in Mass Effect, Lost Odyseey, Folklore, Xenogears, Panzer Dragoon Saga, or one of a thousand more mature titles, if my hillbilly cousin from Louisana is coming over, I'll throw in GTA4.

Again, your stereotyping and profiling of people who enjoy the GTA series as uncultured rednecks does little more than make people annoyed with your BS and detracts from any point you may be trying to make. I suppose it doesn't matter since your full of crap anyway but personal insults don't mesh with intelligent arguments and aren't taken to kindly around here.

Your still really not explaining why it's a piss poor excuse of a game. You're also clearly showing you have no idea how important the series has been to the industry. It practically invented the idea of open world games. Yes you can make arguments that games like Driver did it before GTA but name me one game before GTAIII that nailed the go anywhere and do what you want in a massive world idea? GTAIII was the first to do that, even more importantly it was the first game to show the industry the concept can work. By saying you don't think GTA has done anything for the industry you might as well be saying "I don't know anything about the history of the video game industry and what games have been important to it."

Moreover your argument that GTA uses course language and violence for the hell of it is flat out wrong. That would be like me saying Reservoir Dogs or Pulp Fiction is riddled with coarse language and mass amounts of violence to cater to the lowest chain of the evolutionary gene pool and that's just not the case. Those movies use violence and language because it is appropriate to the scenarios and situations they are conveying. GTA does the same thing.

Want an example? GTA:VC, essentially a mash-up of ideas from some of the greatest 80s movies made; in particular Scarface. GTA:VC uses mass amounts of violence and coarse language because scenario's revolving around being a thug for a number of organized crime bosses isn't going to entail everyone talking like a proper English gent and settling their differences and quarrels over afternoon tea. If you disagree then you may as well be disagreeing with the fact that Scarface used such things because it was appropriate to what Scarface was conveying.

Your "If I want a mature game" examples are great, those are mature games. But that doesn't mean every mature game has to contain the same content to make it mature without being mature for the sake of being mature. No different than movies like The Shawshank Redemption and Goodfellas and Gladiator can be mature for different reasons without either being marketed to your hillbilly cousin.

No, it only changed gaming for the fools stuck to consoles, any real gamer worth his salt knows that GTA did not invent so called "sandbox" Games. Games like Elder Scrolls 2, Freelancer, Sims, Elite, Ultima online and pretty much every other MMO released at the time, Hell, etc all pioneered the genre, GTA just added guns, threw it on the PS2, Hyped it, and then simplified the gameplay so that the idiots who found the earlier sandbox games to complicated could play it.

Let us look at the gameplay then of GTA, at its core it is nothing more than a mission driven Collectathon like a N64 Rare title, you get a job and go kill this guy, go back get another one, stripped to its core that is about as deep as it gets and on the surface is no more a simple fetch mission based game. That IMO is not compelling gameplay, its funny I see people bash Platformers for collectioning based game play, when GTA is pretty much the same exact thing.

As to its importance to the industry, I think all the casual idiots that it has flooded this industry with is what is killing it, its only importance to the industry is that it may very well be one of the factors that kills it. Since GTA3 was released, more and more casuals have infested this industry and game quality has nose-dived, I think it no coincidence.

No, it only changed gaming for the fools stuck to consoles, any real gamer worth his salt knows that GTA did not invent so called "sandbox" Games. Games like Elder Scrolls 2, Freelancer, Sims, Elite, Ultima online and pretty much every other MMO released at the time, Hell, etc all pioneered the genre, GTA just added guns, threw it on the PS2, Hyped it, and then simplified the gameplay so that the idiots who found the earlier sandbox games to complicated could play it.

YAY for insulting people because you know your argument sucks! News flash dude: console gamers aren't the no brained idiots you're making us out to be and now you're making yourself sound like even more of an asshat. Yes, those games had open worlds but that's not the point! GTA made it work so much better and brought it to the attention of the mainstream gamer. Never before GTAIII would could I run anywhere in an wide open world city city, jack any vehicle, shoot anyone I saw, blow up any vehicle. Especially huge is the fact that it's not an RPG and even more importantly not an MMO. It's a regular action game! What go anywhere and do what I please in a game where travel is restricted to horses, everyone's an elf or a dwarf or something, and I don't have to pay a monthly fee? PREPOSTEROUS!

Also again GTA showed the industry OPEN WORLDS WORK! You can pack them full of all kinds of things to do and let the player go virtually anywhere and do virtually anything in a variety of different ways. O and before you call me a console tard I've been dabbling in PC gaming since around 1998.

No, it only changed gaming for the fools stuck to consoles, any real gamer worth his salt knows that GTA did not invent so called "sandbox" Games. Games like Elder Scrolls 2, Freelancer, Sims, Elite, Ultima online and pretty much every other MMO released at the time, Hell, etc all pioneered the genre, GTA just added guns, threw it on the PS2, Hyped it, and then simplified the gameplay so that the idiots who found the earlier sandbox games to complicated could play it.

What did you want in the game....hit points and having to feed my horse, and cover it with +10 magic chainmail? :P

If you want to talk about "Freelancer" like you're some kind of old school gamer God, you should have mentioned ELITE..the game that Freelancer ripped off 15 years later, almost to the letter.

Sandbox gameplay means go anywhere do anything in a 3D world. Ultima Online wasn't a sandbox game, DIablo wasn't, you could say that a game like Morrorwind might quality.....but I digress.

The best you can do is still just whine like a girl about how its got lousy everything.....when the rest of the gaming world understands its significance.....(Doom wasn't the first FPS but it gets the most kudos for truly defining the genere, and so GTA is the in the same league).

So how would you have made it better?

Let us look at the gameplay then of GTA, at its core it is nothing more than a mission driven Collectathon like a N64 Rare title, you get a job and go kill this guy, go back get another one, stripped to its core that is about as deep as it gets and on the surface is no more a simple fetch mission based game. That IMO is not compelling gameplay, its funny I see people bash Platformers for collectioning based game play, when GTA is pretty much the same exact thing.

As to its importance to the industry, I think all the casual idiots that it has flooded this industry with is what is killing it, its only importance to the industry is that it may very well be one of the factors that kills it. Since GTA3 was released, more and more casuals have infested this industry and game quality has nose-dived, I think it no coincidence.

How is GTA a collectathon? YOU DON'T COLLECT ANYTHING!!! O mission based gameplay is bad? Uh-oh better go tell the RTS and FPS genre before they take a nose dive and fail miserably. I don't know how you can say the missions are all the same thing either since you're doing something different in pretty much every mission and after GTAIII we started seeing multi-tiered missions which changed as you proceeded through the mission where you'd have multiple objectives or get new ones as the mission proceeded.

How the hell are more people playing video games a bad thing? Yes, I agree we're seeing a lot of crap in the industry right now but we're also hot off the heels of one of the greatest years in gaming I've ever seen with great games like CoD4, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, Uncharted, Bioshock, Halo 3 (agree or disagree with that one people love hardcore and casual), Ratchet and Clank Future, Metroid Prime 3, Super Mario Galaxy, Crackdown, Motorstorm O and only 2 months into 2008 we've already seen the super original and unique No More Heroes over on the Wii. You know why we have all these great games? MORE PEOPLE ARE PLAYING GAMES! The industry is bringing in more cash than the movie or the music industry and it's that cash flow that allows us to see amazing big budget games like we've never seen before.

Let us look at the gameplay then of GTA, at its core it is nothing more than a mission driven Collectathon like a N64 Rare title


Sure...and every driving game since Grand Prix has been trying to avoid crashing into cars and winning the race, and every FPS has been about killing all the people from point A to point Z, and every game of chess has been about thinking ahead and winning the game. Does that mean that Battle Chess is a game that should be dismissed as "nothing, only idiots play it" because the REAL chess game was invented like 10,000 years ago by a couple of man-apes with a pile of rocks?


As to its importance to the industry, I think all the casual idiots that it has flooded this industry with is what is killing it, its only importance to the industry is that it may very well be one of the factors that kills it. Since GTA3 was released, more and more casuals have infested this industry and game quality has nose-dived, I think it no coincidence.

Yeah, game quality has totally nosedived.....we've gone nowhere in 20 years.

Stop ducking the question, give us some examples of GOOD games. And please if they are all PC Sims of one sort or another, just don't even bother answering.

Sure...and every driving game since Grand Prix has been trying to avoid crashing into cars and winning the race, and every FPS has been about killing all the people from point A to point Z, and every game of chess has been about thinking ahead and winning the game. Does that mean that Battle Chess is a game that should be dismissed as "nothing, only idiots play it" because the REAL chess game was invented like 10,000 years ago by a couple of man-apes with a pile of rocks?



Yeah, game quality has totally nosedived.....we've gone nowhere in 20 years.

Stop ducking the question, give us some examples of GOOD games. And please if they are all PC Sims of one sort or another, just don't even bother answering.

It's methos are you kidding? The guy doesn't have a logical argument, I don't think I've ever read one of his posts where he did. He'll just continue to dance around the question, spew some BS, and throw in some insults as we continue to give well thought out intelligent answers as to why he is wrong.

It's methos are you kidding? The guy doesn't have a logical argument, I don't think I've ever read one of his posts where he did. He'll just continue to dance around the question, spew some BS, and throw in some insults as we continue to give well thought out intelligent answers as to why he is wrong.

Exactly. Now, you just start agreeing with me in that other thread that the Wii is rubbish and we'll both be on the same page! :D

Exactly. Now, you just start agreeing with me in that other thread that the Wii is rubbish and we'll both be on the same page! :D

Sure thing, go check out what he's posting in the GTA thread in the PS forum. He just tried to make the argument that he shouldn't have to calibrate his TV inputs for his PS3 and 360 to get crossplatform games to look the same on both, on AVS of all places. I lol'd:D

It's methos are you kidding? The guy doesn't have a logical argument, I don't think I've ever read one of his posts where he did. He'll just continue to dance around the question, spew some BS, and throw in some insults as we continue to give well thought out intelligent answers as to why he is wrong.

Yeah, but your not proving me wrong are you, your just profiling that you have a different opinion and that proves zilch. I think GTA is a horrid series, and I have showed why. It does nothing but glorify Violence and denigrate behavior, to the extant that because of it, gaming is blamed for just about every social ill you can name. And yes it is a collectathon and yes you do collect things such as money earned, you cannot progress or earn new areas unless you do these missions, which is at its core the same as any platform collection game, you want to go here collect enough of these. And some of you like headrusch I cannot even take seriously, because its obivous your just skipping through my post. You say to name Elite, funny that I did mention it as the pioneer and you completely skipped over it. Go ahead and defend it, I know that there are others that feel just like me, like Dave Halverson at Play magazine who has called GTA a sickness that is rotting away at the heart of gaming.

wow. all the mods must be away huh?

:-)

Yeah, but your not proving me wrong are you, your just profiling that you have a different opinion and that proves zilch. I think GTA is a horrid series, and I have showed why. It does nothing but glorify Violence and denigrate behavior, to the extant that because of it, gaming is blamed for just about every social ill you can name. And yes it is a collectathon and yes you do collect things such as money earned, you cannot progress or earn new areas unless you do these missions, which is at its core the same as any platform collection game, you want to go here collect enough of these. And some of you like headrusch I cannot even take seriously, because its obivous your just skipping through my post. You say to name Elite, funny that I did mention it as the pioneer and you completely skipped over it. Go ahead and defend it, I know that there are others that feel just like me, like Dave Halverson at Play magazine who has called GTA a sickness that is rotting away at the heart of gaming.

I haven't proved you wrong? I've posted several lengthy in-depth responses to you explaining exactly why you're wrong and you haven't responded to a damn thing I've said you just keep trying to say GTA is an overly violent game for rednecks where all you do is collect things. I won't repeat everything I've said since you can scroll up and read things but I have to respond to this part of your last post:

"And yes it is a collectathon and yes you do collect things such as money earned, you cannot progress or earn new areas unless you do these missions, which is at its core the same as any platform collection game, you want to go here collect enough of these"

Huh? O I have to collect money? O man I guess I'm wrong, shucks, but man will the guys be surprised when I inform them Counterstrike is a collectathon just like Super Mario Galaxy! O and what's this? I can't access certain parts of the game until I complete missions preceding them? Yea that does suck because ya know every other game I've ever played has allowed me to skip right to the final mission or the boss of the game, I guess every other game is a collectathon to eh? Seriously this is even funnier than when you tried (and failed) to define niche to all us folks of lesser intelligence over in the PS forum.

Seriously though methos I gotta thank you for giving me some great entertainment this evening while I've been away from video games and just about every other form of entertainment waiting to leave for my spring break plans tomorrow, it's been a blast listening to your insensible ranting.

And some of you like headrusch I cannot even take seriously, because its obivous your just skipping through my post. You say to name Elite, funny that I did mention it as the pioneer and you completely skipped over it.


So you did....and I apologize, I missed it.....but thats still not a sandbox game.


Go ahead and defend it, I know that there are others that feel just like me, like Dave Halverson at Play magazine who has called GTA a sickness that is rotting away at the heart of gaming.

Ugh, whats Dave want us playing.....Pikmin and Dance Dance Revolution?

You're just upset at a game that glorifies violence, is that it?

But..isn't that the reason we PLAY games like this? Because most of us will never be elite counter-terrorists? Or Race Car Drivers? Or street hoods?

So you did....and I apologize, I missed it.....but thats still not a sandbox game.



Ugh, whats Dave want us playing.....Pikmin and Dance Dance Revolution?

You're just upset at a game that glorifies violence, is that it?

But..isn't that the reason we PLAY games like this? Because most of us will never be elite counter-terrorists? Or Race Car Drivers? Or street hoods?

I actually have nothing against violent games, I loved Conan and its as violent as can be and I have a lukewarm taste for Manhunt. My problem is with GTA and the fact that so many are in love with what IMO like I mentioned is one of the worst playing games I have ever seen, and most definite the worst production wise. The graphic drop outs, glitches, clipping, missed animation frames, poor modeling, etc in all the GTA games makes said issues with say Mass Effect look nonexistent, seriously its like Rockstar just slaps a GTA game unto a disc as soon as its done and refuses to do any type of post-production optimization or clean up. And it boggles the mind that you all let them get away with this, with the excuse of look how much you can do. You can in Obilivon also, and it has almost none of the issues a GTA game has and it is way larger and has more to do.

Can we still get hookers? That's really all that matters.

+1

More importantly, can we still kill them after the services are rendered to get a refund?

+1 :p

I actually have nothing against violent games, I loved Conan and its as violent as can be and I have a lukewarm taste for Manhunt. My problem is with GTA and the fact that so many are in love with what IMO like I mentioned is one of the worst playing games I have ever seen, and most definite the worst production wise. The graphic drop outs, glitches, clipping, missed animation frames, poor modeling, etc in all the GTA games makes said issues with say Mass Effect look nonexistent, seriously its like Rockstar just slaps a GTA game unto a disc as soon as its done and refuses to do anytype of post-production optimization or clean up. And it boggles the mine that you all yet them get away with this, with the excuse of look how much you can do. You can in Obilivon also, and it has almost done of the issues a GTA game has and it is way laeger and has more to do.

You still haven't given a counterargument to any of the points I made about the games violence. As for the technical issues it's the first time you've actually brought those up. You're really not arguing as arguing entails a back and forth whereas what's happening here is you say one thing, we react, and you proceed to ignore our reactions and bring up an entirely new argument.

As for the technical issues yes they're rampant, yes they're annoying, and yes sometime they're unacceptable. I recall many times walking away from a session of GTA cursing R* for creating such a great game with so many technical flaws. But you have to remember the GTA games were all very large and very ambitious titles on hardware that was simply underpowered, go play the PC versions and you'll see that they handle much better. Since this thread is about GTAIV you can't apply those issues to it at all because A) it's not out, B) looks very polished thus far, and C) is running on much more powerful hardware. To compare GTA to Oblivion is ridiculous, you're comparing a title designed for the PS2 to a title designed for primarily for powerful gaming PCs and secondarily for next-gen consoles.

I also find it hilarious someone could call the violence and language in GTA distasteful and then go on to say they enjoy drivel like Manhunt which is little more than over-the-top violence, gore, and language for the exact purpose of catering to the lowest common denominator. Only unlike GTA it's entirely unnecessary and piled on top of a terrible game with a terrible narrative.

I also find it hilarious someone could call the violence and language in GTA distasteful and then go on to say they enjoy drivel like Manhunt which is little more than over-the-top violence, gore, and language for the exact purpose of catering to the lowest common denominator. Only unlike GTA it's entirely unnecessary and piled on top of a terrible game with a terrible narrative.

I said I have luke warm taste for it, not that really enjoy it. Manhunt is IMO like Hostel, its pure crap but the violence is blown way out of proportion to a degree that it becomes ridiculous and a parody of itself, IMO Manhunt exist as a commentary on todays society and the idiocy of how violent it and those who embrace it have become.

Thats the problem though, GTA games look bad, run bad, play bad, and are no fun at all. I honestly cannot see why anyone loves this series, its nothing but a bunch of expanded Banjo-Tooieesqe Collect-a-thons held together by flimsy gameplay, even worse graphics, and enough expletive and violence filled "story" to make itself look "mature" to the trailer-park crowd.

I can agree with that criticism somewhat. As a GTA fan who's played them all back to GTA 2 on the Dreamcast, I recognize that the on-foot engine including weapons aiming and enemy spawning has been a nasty mess since the series went 3-D. And the primary mission structure has been more about guessing what the developers were thinking than following instructions. I can enjoy GTAIII & Vice City because I've played them through multiple times and have memorized the correct gameplay paths. On the first playthrough, each was maddeningly frustrating with lots of random mission failures. And San Andreas was just too big with too much filler gameplay. But...

As repetitive as the main missions were, not playing the main game was amazingly fun. In other words, just goofing off discovering unique jumps, or seeing where a particular rooftop led to always kept me captivated. As bad as the on-foot engine is, I always loved the vehicle physics. To me, cruising was what made the series fun. And I honestly don't believe any game will ever create a stronger sense of mood than Vice City. The music, the humid neon air, a white Lamborghini after a Florida thunderstorm...duuuuuude! The graphics may not have been spectacular, but remember the GTA III-San Andreas engine was built for PS2, so there was a pretty low ceiling. The games actually looked sharp on PC.

As far as the violence and language, yeah, it's always been over the top. San Andreas kind of turned me off because the writers just substituted 4 letter words for dialogue. But GTA characters have always been completely heinous, even the protagonists, so it kind of had to be viewed as an evil comic book. What intrigues me about IV is how they'll handle the insane violence with a more "realistic" gameworld, and if they'll finally tighten up the on-foot gameplay.

I can agree with that criticism somewhat. As a GTA fan who's played them all back to GTA 2 on the Dreamcast, I recognize that the on-foot engine including weapons aiming and enemy spawning has been a nasty mess since the series went 3-D. And the primary mission structure has been more about guessing what the developers were thinking than following instructions. I can enjoy GTAIII & Vice City because I've played them through multiple times and have memorized the correct gameplay paths. On the first playthrough, each was maddeningly frustrating with lots of random mission failures. And San Andreas was just too big with too much filler gameplay. But...

As repetitive as the main missions were, not playing the main game was amazingly fun. In other words, just goofing off discovering unique jumps, or seeing where a particular rooftop led to always kept me captivated. As bad as the on-foot engine is, I always loved the vehicle physics. To me, cruising was what made the series fun. And I honestly don't believe any game will ever create a stronger sense of mood than Vice City. The music, the humid neon air, a white Lamborghini after a Florida thunderstorm...duuuuuude! The graphics may not have been spectacular, but remember the GTA III-San Andreas engine was built for PS2, so there was a pretty low ceiling. The games actually looked sharp on PC.

As far as the violence and language, yeah, it's always been over the top. San Andreas kind of turned me off because the writers just substituted 4 letter words for dialogue. But GTA characters have always been completely heinous, even the protagonists, so it kind of had to be viewed as an evil comic book. What intrigues me about IV is how they'll handle the insane violence with a more "realistic" gameworld, and if they'll finally tighten up the on-foot gameplay.

Again I think you guys are missing the point of the violence and language. It's their because it's necessary, the devs didn't just throw four letter words in at random and oversaturate it with violence to dumb down the experience they did it because it has to be there. Can you imagine Scarface sans the gunfight at the end? How about a censored Boyz in the Hood? Same with GTA. The violence is their because you're a criminal and you're working for criminals doing bad things, what do you expect it to be. The language is their for the same purpose, gangsters don't talk like they were in the presence of the virgin Mary, they swear... A LOT!

You guys talk like it's Postal or Manhunt where it's over the top gratuitous violence and language just for the sake of having it. At least in GTA I can't kill a man using a gun that has a cat for a silencer then bash his head off with a shovel and piss on his body for no apparent reason.

I also don't see how you can call the gameplay repetitive. Assassin's Creed (GPS on not off) is repetitive as it's the same four missions over and over. In GTA one mission I'm trailing some dude in a car trying to stay with him but not be noticed then find a concealed spot to take pictures of him, the next mission I'll be climbing a rooptop to snipe some guys in a brawl to even the odds for the other side, next I'll have to rob a bank involving a huge shootout and then lose the cops, and then in the next mission just for good measure I'll have to use a bunch of toy cars strapped with explosives to blow up a building. And those are only a few examples of many many different missions I have played in the GTA series. There are a lot of games I could complain are repetitive, GTA has a lot of issues but repetition is not one of them. Are some missions similar? Yea, that's to be expected but are most of the missions drastically different? Yup.

I have played every GTA game released, I have more than tried to be fair to the series, but in the end I have found everyone to be a piss poor excuse of a game and yes IMO it caters almost exclusively to the Lower denominator caste of people and looking at the fools that I see pass through EB to reserve it does nothing but reinforce this opinion in my mind. GTA has done nothing at all to progress gaming, and in fact looking at all the drama it has spawned, it has single-handily cause more regression within gaming than 20 Mario games. If I want to play a mature title, I throw in Mass Effect, Lost Odyseey, Folklore, Xenogears, Panzer Dragoon Saga, or one of a thousand more mature titles, if my hillbilly cousin from Louisana is coming over, I'll throw in GTA4.

I don't care if you want to make a point about how you dislike a game, but I think you can do it without making condescending remarks about other people. Why don't you try and educate yourself about the rest of the country before making your little smart ass comments. :mad:

I have played every GTA game released, I have more than tried to be fair to the series, but in the end I have found everyone to be a piss poor excuse of a game and yes IMO it caters almost exclusively to the Lower denominator caste of people and looking at the fools that I see pass through EB to reserve it does nothing but reinforce this opinion in my mind. GTA has done nothing at all to progress gaming, and in fact looking at all the drama it has spawned, it has single-handily cause more regression within gaming than 20 Mario games. If I want to play a mature title, I throw in Mass Effect, Lost Odyseey, Folklore, Xenogears, Panzer Dragoon Saga, or one of a thousand more mature titles, if my hillbilly cousin from Louisana is coming over, I'll throw in GTA4.


Stereotype much? I haven't even played the GTA series much, but reading the nonsense you spew makes my head hurt.

This thread is not worth cleaning up.
Smarten up guys!

Kyser