Was that a copy, delete, post reply, paste, edit re-post?

When my replacement DTVPal with F106 firmware arrived (as reported earlier) on 9/15, I set up a M-F timer which fired successfully on 9/16-17. Yesterday, 9/18 it failed to fire, no green light. When it was several minutes late, I turned it on; the green light lit up, but the box was unresponsive. I unplugged it for a bit after which it came up with the "Downloading Guide" screen followed by tuning to the channel from the unfired timer.

Later, after the DTVPal had been off for a few hours, it turned itself on for no apparent reason and stayed on for an hour or so after which I turned it off.

So, F106 isn't quite right. I've reported all this to tech@echostar.com, for what that's worth.

I called Dish Network about the TR-40 running hot on Wednesday and quoted the email they sent me. For some reason the device wasn't on my account - or at least not accessible by them. So I needed to call back with the device #. I did that today and after a whole lot of hold time they got it on my account. This guy now tells me that the device feeling hot to my touch should not be a fatal problem. He asked whether I had turned it off or let it turn itself off. I told him that I had turned it off. He suggested that I leave it on and see what happens. If I get a message on the screen that it is overheating then they'll need to replace it. Otherwise I shouldn't worry about it.

If I am not using the timers at the moment, is there any real reason to leave the device on? Am I not just wasting electricity? Does leaving it on somehow regulate cooling of the device? Any ideas?

Not to make any excuses, but do you all know how many HD and SD ATSC tuners out there leave that VBI line exposed? A lot. This is not something new, and it's certainly not anything common to just this and maybe a couple other, new CECB boxes. I have HD tuners a few years old which do this.

Rammitinski,
This is not about VBI, but with your experience in ATSC tuners, how do the DTV converters compare in sensitivity to the high level ATSC HD tuners. I'm quite impressed with the Zenith, DTVPal, and ZAT-970A in performance, i.e., sensitivity.
Thank you,

When my replacement DTVPal with F106 firmware arrived (as reported earlier) on 9/15, I set up a M-F timer which fired successfully on 9/16-17. Yesterday, 9/18 it failed to fire, no green light. When it was several minutes late, I turned it on; the green light lit up, but the box was unresponsive. I unplugged it for a bit after which it came up with the "Downloading Guide" screen followed by tuning to the channel from the unfired timer.

Later, after the DTVPal had been off for a few hours, it turned itself on for no apparent reason and stayed on for an hour or so after which I turned it off.

So, F106 isn't quite right. I've reported all this to tech@echostar.com, for what that's worth.

was the time on the station correct? do you have the CBS signal for it to synch with in your area?

I called Dish Network about the TR-40 running hot on Wednesday and quoted the email they sent me. For some reason the device wasn't on my account - or at least not accessible by them. So I needed to call back with the device #. I did that today and after a whole lot of hold time they got it on my account. This guy now tells me that the device feeling hot to my touch should not be a fatal problem. He asked whether I had turned it off or let it turn itself off. I told him that I had turned it off. He suggested that I leave it on and see what happens. If I get a message on the screen that it is overheating then they'll need to replace it. Otherwise I shouldn't worry about it.

If I am not using the timers at the moment, is there any real reason to leave the device on? Am I not just wasting electricity? Does leaving it on somehow regulate cooling of the device? Any ideas?

Never heard that before. That would seem to imply that theres a thermocouple inside there that would tell if it gets too hot...which I dont believe anyone who's ever opened the box up has indicated. Strange.

Just make sure you document your conversation...did you get a CSR number or name?

was the time on the station correct? do you have the CBS signal for it to synch with in your area?

I am in the San Francisco area and the local CBS station seems to be the time source for DTVPal. My DTVPals have always shown the same time for all stations. For the few days before the missed timer, the DTVPal clock had never been more than 30 seconds different than a correct clock, and was dead on when I got DTVPal back to life after the missed timer and hang.

I called Dish Network about the TR-40 running hot on Wednesday and quoted the email they sent me. For some reason the device wasn't on my account - or at least not accessible by them. So I needed to call back with the device #. I did that today and after a whole lot of hold time they got it on my account. This guy now tells me that the device feeling hot to my touch should not be a fatal problem. He asked whether I had turned it off or let it turn itself off. I told him that I had turned it off. He suggested that I leave it on and see what happens. If I get a message on the screen that it is overheating then they'll need to replace it. Otherwise I shouldn't worry about it.

If I am not using the timers at the moment, is there any real reason to leave the device on? Am I not just wasting electricity? Does leaving it on somehow regulate cooling of the device? Any ideas?

Not sure anyone has seen an "overheating" DTVPAL message. I suppose someone could "force" a DTVPAL to overheat... (Pre-heat an Oven or something!!) if the message pops up there you go...

While the DTVPAL antenna feed does seem to get "hot" for some of us... Not sure DISH will repair/replace them until the "hot" gets high enough to burn somebody. Now it's just a "frak" moment if you aren't paying attention. Otherwise it's bearable.

Based on my Watt Meter my F103 DTVPAL does use significantly less power in "off" mode vs "on" (Duh). It shouldn't be using "less" power in unattended "on" mode or after it turns itself "off"... That should mean Heat isn't going to change either. Unless there are non-tuner related screens that might use less power and turn "off" the feed (at least part of the time), keeping it cooler.

I am in the San Francisco area and the local CBS station seems to be the time source for DTVPal. My DTVPals have always shown the same time for all stations. For the few days before the missed timer, the DTVPal clock had never been more than 30 seconds different than a correct clock, and was dead on when I got DTVPal back to life after the missed timer and hang.

yeah I dunno...I've had mine for a few days now and havent noticed any problems with the timers missing any of my shows. I havent sat there watching it intently, so I might have missed it misfiring on the exact time, or it may not have misfired at all for me.

I would suggest a "wait and see" approach as to deciding whether F106 is indeed faulty. Once or twice is a misfire, three or more times is a bug. The best thing to do is to see if happens again and document what happened prior to the incident.

Not sure anyone has seen an "overheating" DTVPAL message. I suppose someone could "force" a DTVPAL to overheat... (Pre-heat an Oven or something!!) if the message pops up there you go...


Has it come to this? we arent getting paid enough. :D

...F106 isn't quite right. I've reported all this to tech@echostar.com, for what that's worth.

So much for me exchanging mine for 106s. Tho' I suppose I should call and set things up anyway, so I don't end up having them tell me I waited too long.

*sigh* :rolleyes:

...Has it come to this? we arent getting paid enough. :D


I wonder if the "no signal" problem I've had with only one of mine could be an overheating problem? (The box did seem very hot the first time this happened.)

The box was left on 24/7 so's to avoid data downloads scrambling the timers. Turning on the set, the screen has a message saying there's no signal on the channel it's tuned to. (Or it lost the signal or whatever.) Checking other channels, however, showed NOTHING was coming in. No reception on any channel, same message on them all.

Had to leave the box unplugged for at least an hour before it would finally start getting TV again, then it was fine, receiving on all channels as if nothing had been wrong.

This has happened at least three times, but oddly I haven't seen it happen in a week, depite the box still being left on all the time since the last restart.

Contradictory evidence....

Oh CRUMB! :p

If the timers were working on the TR40 with firwear F103 then they should be OK on the DTVPAL with F106. Looks like time to return mine for working ones but what else are you having problems with. The timers were the big problem most had and if they are fixed now what are you all complaining about. All the boxes do a picture shift a little which i blame on the tvs more than the boxes.

Contradictory evidence....

Oh CRUMB! :p

Shush, Penfold! :)

If the timers were working on the TR40 with firwear F103 then they should be OK on the DTVPAL with F106. Looks like time to return mine for working ones but what else are you having problems with. The timers were the big problem most had and if they are fixed now what are you all complaining about. All the boxes do a picture shift a little which i blame on the tvs more than the boxes.

I was thinking along those lines as well. I wasnt aware there was any problem with the F106 timers until the above glitch was mentioned. If it doesnt happen again, then it isnt a bug. If it does, the only thing I can think of offhand is with F103 timers working ok, perhaps they introduced code into the programming to try and fix some other issue that ends up conflicting with the code they altered to fix the timers in F103?

At this point, we just dont know.

As far as other major issues people are concerned about, theres the shift to the left, the temperature issue, the incorrect time of day, and the VBI issue. The first one could be a box issue or a TV issue...I see the same with my CM-7000 and am convinced it's the CM-7000, but others arent. The second issue has been acknowledged by Dish and at this point they seem to be standing by the notion that the box is (UL?) compliant and not a safety hazard.. The last two issues are due to the broadcasters, both in my own personal opinion, and from Dish.

You are very sanguine about this issue. I'll try to do likewise, but...

It's more than just overscan that's making those lines invisible. The electron gun in the CRT was turned off (blanked) while the coils (big inductors after all) were steering what would have been the beam (were it still on) from lower right to upper left of the screen. You can regard the VBI as part of the analog picture, but really the video is wholly contained in the lower 480 scan lines. Nothing outside those 480 lines should ever be stuffed into the digital video stream. Closed captioning goes into a different digital stream.
But the top 45 lines should not be in the digital video stream at all. What the station is doing is digitizing the whole 525 lines, VBI and all, and scaling that down to 480i. I call that "eggregious blunder #1." Eggregious blunder #2 is designing a converter box that does not now, nor will it ever, show you all 480 lines of the video! When stations figure out what they're doing and correct their #1 blunder, as they have on most (?) channels and subchannels already, a DTVpal will show you the best picture it's receiving. The Zenith will not. Not now, and not ever.

I agree, and I fully understand how the VBI interval included unseen lines that move the electron beam from the bottom to the top of the screen. I just chose to simplify my statement and left that out. Many of us remember when the retrace scan lines were visible on a mal-adjusted or mal-functioning set.

I also agree with Ram.. about the intended use of these boxes to display digitally transmitted TV on a 4x3 analog TV. We should be happy that these latest-generation digital tuners are far more capable of dealing with multipath and other reception problems than our 2000-vintage tuners were.

Once I get a working-timer version of the DTVPal to replace my F101 unit, I will be happy that I have received plenty of functionality and value for my small investment.

For higher video quality, I use my HD tuners.

I called Dish Network about the TR-40 running hot on Wednesday ........This guy now tells me that the device feeling hot to my touch should not be a fatal problem. He asked whether I had turned it off or let it turn itself off. I told him that I had turned it off. He suggested that I leave it on and see what happens. If I get a message on the screen that it is overheating then they'll need to replace it. Otherwise I shouldn't worry about it......Any ideas?

wow...that DN csr is quite a liar, it seems....or he has a very overactive imagination...i would bet big bucks theres no such message possible!

fyi> my TR40 (with F103) runs warm....its never been hot....even the metal tuner rf connectors are only warm, at most....some here have reported that the rf connectors are the warmest part of the box....

Received my TR40 with 103 last week. Timers are stable. But, time jumps 5 minutes. Is time stable with 106? What are your settings or procedure to get a stable, correct, time?

i got my TR40 (with F103) about 10 days ago....so not much experience yet....but so far i have noticed that my TR40 (with F103) seems to get its displayed clock time from each channel as u tune to it...and for some strange reason, my local NBC station is about a minute and a half behind the other major network channels here.....so i can flip back n forth between NBC and another channel and the time goes 'backwards' by about a minute (sometimes 2 minutes) when i go to NBC....and even more interestingly, the on-screen 'time bug' on that NBC channel does not agree with the 'NBC' TR40 displayed time....its off by the same minute or 2....i know that makes no sense but thats what seems to happen....

wow...that DN csr is quite a liar, it seems....or he has a very overactive imagination...i would bet big bucks theres no such message possible!

Dish Network receivers actually do give you a warning if they begin to overheat, so that's why the CSR said that. But I also doubt the DTVPal does this. I haven't seen a thermistor anywhere on the board, unless it's integrated into a chip...

Rammitinski,
This is not about VBI, but with your experience in ATSC tuners, how do the DTV converters compare in sensitivity to the high level ATSC HD tuners. I'm quite impressed with the Zenith, DTVPal, and ZAT-970A in performance, i.e., sensitivity.
Thank you,I don't think any of the standalone tuners out there compare to the best of these new boxes. Maybe that new TiVo coming out will have a 6th gen. chip and be comparable.

I know some people have said the Samsung DTB-260F worked just as good or better in their case, but that hasn't been my experience.

Some of you may not believe it, but I was just flipping through my analog channels and happened to stop on a Fox affiliate showing some movie with Patrick Swayze, and at the top of my screen was the VBI information...on analog! After about a minute the screen went black and it came back with no VBI...one of the night shift engineers must have woken up...but still this is an excellent example of how the broadcaster is responsible for that VBI showing up on the screen.

Not that unbelievable. VBI is analog data...

Shush, Penfold! :) As far as other major issues people are concerned about, theres the shift to the left, the temperature issue, the incorrect time of day, and the VBI issue. The first one could be a box issue or a TV issue...I see the same with my CM-7000 and am convinced it's the CM-7000, but others arent. The second issue has been acknowledged by Dish and at this point they seem to be standing by the notion that the box is (UL?) compliant and not a safety hazard.. The last two issues are due to the broadcasters, both in my own personal opinion, and from Dish.

My CM7000 does a little shift but it's not a big deal as well the VBI line just switch to full screen and it's gone. Never had the heat problem mostly i don't keep my units on very long but still after 3 hours no big deal. The timers were the big issue and the box dyeing on it's one but if all that is fixed them I'm ready to replace mine.

If the timers were working on the TR40 with firwear F103 then they should be OK on the DTVPAL with F106. Looks like time to return mine for working ones but what else are you having problems with. The timers were the big problem most had and if they are fixed now what are you all complaining about. All the boxes do a picture shift a little which i blame on the tvs more than the boxes.

It seems there's a problem with setting up a timer event for the same day of the week, one week down the road. If you want a recording at 7pm next Sunday, and you enter it at 8pm this Sunday, the time can end up as 4:30pm.

It's also been reported to skip timer events for some unknown reason.

Still not quite right, I guess.

It seems there's a problem with setting up a timer event for the same day of the week, one week down the road. If you want a recording at 7pm next Sunday, and you enter it at 8pm this Sunday, the time can end up as 4:30pm.

It's also been reported to skip timer events for some unknown reason.

Still not quite right, I guess.

Which version are you speaking of...103 or 106?

Which version are you speaking of...103 or 106?I spoke with Damion [PLC] in Dish Network technical support yesterday (9/19) who stated that F106 still does not solve all the timer problems. He claimed the engineers still have the VBI, TVGOS, and unresponsiveness after power-on issues listed as unresolved also. He advised me to continue holding off for an exchange and to check back periodically for further updates.

I spoke with Damion [PLC] in Dish Network technical support yesterday (9/19) who stated that F106 still does not solve all the timer problems. He claimed the engineers still have the VBI, TVGOS, and unresponsiveness after power-on issues listed as unresolved also. He advised me to continue holding off for an exchange and to check back periodically for further updates.

thanks for the update.
i wonder if people who have bought the tr40cra will be able to get it replaced with the newest version as well as dtvpal owners. If that is so, I would be willing to try out a tr40cra.

I spoke with Damion [PLC] in Dish Network technical support yesterday (9/19) who stated that F106 still does not solve all the timer problems. He claimed the engineers still have the VBI, TVGOS, and unresponsiveness after power-on issues listed as unresolved also. He advised me to continue holding off for an exchange and to check back periodically for further updates.
I was wondering if somone who has the TR-40CRA can check if it also has this one other minor issue that exists on my DTV Pal (I have version F103); when you press the Info button to get up the information about the show the first time it is transparent and the second time you press it, it becomes solid like it should, but if you press it one time as transparent and hit cancel or select to say done the next time it comes up solid. The way it is suppose to work is only come up solid when you press Info a second time right after you press it the first time, otherwise it should always come up transparent the next time you press it. It should work just like my Dish Network Satellite Receiver remote does. This is a minor issue, but it would be nice if they could fix this as well. I do like the fact that the remote functions the same way as my satellite remote, since I changed my satellite remote to control the DTV Pal as the AUX device (I just had to make sure that my satellite receiver was not set up with address 01). This is a problem with the box and not the remote since both my satellite remote and the one that came with the DTV Pal do the same thing when using the DTV Pal.

I was wondering if somone who has the TR-40CRA can check if it also has this one other minor issue that exists on my DTV Pal (I have version F103); when you press the Info button to get up the information about the show the first time it is transparent and the second time you press it, it becomes solid like it should, but if you press it one time as transparent and hit cancel or select to say done the next time it comes up solid. The way it is suppose to work is only come up solid when you press Info a second time right after you press it the first time, otherwise it should always come up transparent the next time you press it. It should work just like my Dish Network Satellite Receiver remote does. This is a minor issue, but it would be nice if they could fix this as well. I do like the fact that the remote functions the same way as my satellite remote, since I changed my satellite remote to control the DTV Pal as the AUX device (I just had to make sure that my satellite receiver was not set up with address 01). This is a problem with the box and not the remote since both my satellite remote and the one that came with the DTV Pal do the same thing when using the DTV Pal.

Same result with the TR-40CRA (F103)......it seems to interrupt the cycle when you push "cancel" (vs. pushing "info" a second time)......
I wish that this was the only issue (if you could even call it that) with these boxes :(......
I'd be a very happy camper! :)

Which version are you speaking of...103 or 106?


The 106, I'm afraid. (According to rkenner.) :(

I spoke with Damion [PLC] in Dish Network technical support yesterday (9/19) who stated that F106 still does not solve all the timer problems. He claimed the engineers still have the VBI, TVGOS, and unresponsiveness after power-on issues listed as unresolved also. He advised me to continue holding off for an exchange and to check back periodically for further updates.


The first two don't bother me, but what do you mean by "unresponsiveness after power-on"?

The thing I found on one of mine? It claiming it couldn't get a signal on ANY channel (leading to me having to unplug it for a hour or more before it'd work again)?

I was given a TR-40CRA (F103) as a gift approx. two weeks ago.
This gave me an opportunity to test out this (supposedly) newer software version. I was pessimistic......due to all of the "bad press" it's received (here)!
This was my first ever experience with a "Dish" CECB.
I was adamantly opposed to buying one, since I preferred to boycott Dish Network......due to their shady business practices (with the DTVpal) and awful support!

So far I've left the unit turned on most of the time (I wanted to see just how warm it became and how well it would work under constant use). This is how I'd prefer to use it, since I have a DVD recorder with an IR blaster which can (and will) control channel changes (for recording).
For the record, it gets quite warm but not hot......similar to my CM-7000. Considering that there's no ventilation, that's not too bad. Keep in mind that ambient room temperature is always a major factor with this type of equipment. People who complain of "hot" boxes may very well be exposing them to higher ambient temperatures. Therefore, there's no real standard for this, since even 3-4 degees can make a considerable difference in the cabinet temperature.
However, with the exception of the Zenith/Insignia boxes, I feel that they all run too warm.

Bear in mind that I've tested many different CECB's over the past few months.
I hate to admit it but the Dish box has three nice advantages (for me).

Firstly, I find it to be more sensitive than most boxes and it has greater compatibilty with weaker and/or reflected signals. It's basically on par with my CM-7000 (my reference standard) and as good (or better) than my
DTT-901 (in this area).
Picture quality goes from very good to mediocre (depending upon the channel.....for some odd reason). The CM is more consistent and better overall than all of the boxes I've tested (in this area). It produces a more dynamic picture with more detail (in general). Oddly enough though, there are times when the Dish box seems to produce a more detailed picture than the CM (but never as dynamic).

Secondly, the EPG is clearly superior to all the others......when it works!
It's designed more like a satellite/cable system EPG (obviously) and unlike other boxes, that have either now/next configurations or (what I consider to be) a non-standard version of an EPG......or have ridiculously small displays (such as the CM......what were they smoking?!)......it's a far better design.
Unfortunately, some of the channels rarely have any program data and others have it to a very limited degree (just several hours). Also, I'm finding that often a channel will have no info. and then suddenly (as you're moving forward on the guide).....it pops up! Sometimes there's actual program detail ......and sometimes not!......
It's so inconsistent and frustrating! :eek:
Also.....I find that if I leave the box on, the clock will consistently lose approx. 2-3 minutes per day!
Yet, if I turn it off for a short period of time......it catches up to the correct time!

I haven't done much with the timers. However, I find that by setting a daily timer (for mid afternoon) and turning off the box late in the evening, it gives the box the opportunity to catch up to the current time. The fact that the timer turns the box back on and leaves it on is a nice advantage for this purpose.
What bugs me is that, even with the software updates, they didn't resolve this slow clock issue. I'm in NYC and I have to assume that my local (major) affiliate is providing an accurate time stamp. Besides, why should these boxes have to depend on local broadcasters to keep the time accurate!
Why can't they simply have an independent internal clock system?! :eek:

Thirdly, I prefer the "Dish" remote control over all other CECB remotes.
It's a good size, feels confortable to hold and has a better overall button layout than the others I've tested. You pretty much can take your eyes off of it after using it just several times. The buttons require minimal pressure (possibly too minimal) are are large enough (especially for a relatively small remote control). It's better ergonomically and more "user friendly" than most.

I would appreciate your thoughts as to the innacurate clock and EPG inconsistancies......
am I doing something wrong?
Has F106 resolved any of these issues? :confused:

Thanks for your input!......and sorry for any redundant questions!.....I haven't been following the "Dish" CECB threads that closely......as I never expected to own one (I guess that I'm now another "victim")!

F106 fixes neither the clock nor EPG issues you speak of. The time and EPG issues, as well as the VBI is all on the broadcasters from what I can tell. While they may try to address them in future software updates, the latest version doesnt.

The TR-40's should have the exact same 90 day warranty as the DVPal, so those of you that bought it have at least 90 days, if not longer (depending on whether you call Dish and get an official ok to wait longer like other users here have) to exchange it for higher firmware on the basis of issues you might have.

As I said, I'm not having any of the timer issues with F106 that some have reported, which is good in a way. I currently have three timers set on my Pal, one M-F one and two (soon to be three)weekly ones. Hopefully there arent too many more interesting shows on TV, as I need one free slot for last minute recording, and there are only 5 timers. Guess thats a + for the Zat 970A with 8.

The what do you mean by "unresponsiveness after power-on"?Frequently when the DTVPal is turned on, the green light comes on, but the TV screen is blank (no picture, no 'Downloading Guide', nothing). You can't do anything from the remote control at that point. Even unplugging the unit from the wall doesn't help. You have you leave it powered on in this catatonic state until something times out. I've seen it take more than 15 minutes to come back to life. There have been several similar reports in this forum.

Dear Mr.

Thank you for your email. We understand these situations can be frustrating and apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. We are currently using F103 firmware. As with any new technology there are problems that can occur and are not recognized until the equipment is out in the field and the issues are reported. We appreciate your patience while we work towards a resolution.

Your business is greatly appreciated and we thank you for allowing us to be of assistance to you. If you have further questions you can respond to this e-mail or access our online technical support at the following link: http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/index.shtml

A Technical Service Representative is available via live chat 24 hours a day, 7 days per week regarding your concerns. Please click the following link to use this option. http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/content/tech/techchatadvcustformrf23.shtml

Thank you,
Michelle S.

DISH Network Technical E-care

From:
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 12:08 PM
To: Tech
Subject: RE: dtvpal malfunctions
Hello
I read your DTVPALs have firmware F106 now so does this clear up all the problems with the timers and other issues. Is it time for me to return my DTVPALs for working ones with the F106 Software? I don't want to go through all the trouble of returning them now just to get boxes with the same problems.

Please wait while we find a representative to assist you...
You have been connected to (05-03) James F.
(05-03) James F: Thank you for choosing Dish Network the leader in DVR and HD. I will be happy to assist you today. Please give me 2-3 minutes to access your account and review the information you have already provided.
(05-03) James F: Thank you. Please give me 2-3 minutes to research this.
(05-03) James F: Can you please explain what you mean by broken timers?
me: all dtvpals with software versions f101/102 timers on the boxes don't work right. they reset themselves or go off with out firing this is a known issue with the dtvpals we been waiting for dish to fix this problem with new software updates
(05-03) James F: If the problem is indeed with the software version, replacing the devices won't fix the problem as they'll have the same software. I will submit a technical problem report to our engineering department and they should have a new software version by Tuesday night.
(05-03) James F: I apologize for any inconvenience.
me: i read they are now on f106 the software on the dtvpals isn't upgradable or patchable we would need to return the boxes
(05-03) James F: Please give me 2-3 minutes to research this.
(05-03) James F: It appears you are correct and we would have to send you replacements. You said you have two DTVPals, right?
me: yes
(05-03) James F: Your account is listing only one; did you receive the second one recently?
me: has the timer issue been fixed i bought one from another retialer
(05-03) James F: Oh, okay.
(05-03) James F: We can replace the one on your account for you now, but you'd have to go to the retailer to replace the other one.
me: it was mailorder and that can't be done
(05-03) James F: Have you attempted to contact the retailer about this issue?
me: it's your warrenty not theirs, explain why you can't they just sell them
(05-03) James F: If the device isn't active on your account, there's no way for me to set up the replacement order, but we should be able to activate it onto your account for you.
me: fine
(05-03) James F: Can you please go to each TV and press the menu button on the remote followed by 3 (Setup), 2 (System Setup), then 4 (System Info) and tell me what is listed for Receiver ID?
me: give me a few minutes
(05-03) James F: Thank you. Please give me a few moments to activate this for you.
(05-03) James F: Can I please have you verify your shipping address?
(05-03) James F: Okay, thank you
(05-03) James F: You may choose to ship the equipment to us at your cost. Upon receipt of your equipment you will be shipped a replacement. Your original equipment will not be available for return. If the equipment is covered under warranty (and it should be): replacement will be shipped to you at no additional cost (additional charges may apply outside the continental US). If equipment is not covered under warranty and can be repaired your billing account or credit card will be charged the standard repair fee for the replacement. If damage to the defective equipment is found, which DISH Network determines voids the warranty, or makes the equipment unrepairable, you will be charged the market price of the replacement. Include proof of purchase inside return box. Write the RA number on the box and send equipment to:

DISH NETWORK SERVICE
90 INVERNESS CIRCLE EAST
ENGLEWOOD, CO 80112.

(05-03) James F: I'm glad we were able to take care of that for you. Thank you for being a DISH Network customer, have a great day.

i don't know about everyone else but the timer issues are the only ones i ever had with the box. picture is fine and the guide may not have 7 days of programing like promised but I'm guessing that is no one is sending out 7 days worth and will not be until the switch over or few months into it. If the timers aren't fixed then what is the sense of returning the boxes, i don't like the idea that dish can charge my credit card if they decide to just because they are dragging their feet repairing the boxes software and the warranty runs out. This could have been taken care of if they just would have made the software flash able over the net like Logitech remotes. How much would it have cost to add this feature to the boxes, 2 cents.

i don't know about everyone else but the timer issues are the only ones i ever had with the box. picture is fine and the guide may not have 7 days of programing like promised but I'm guessing that is no one is sending out 7 days worth and will not be until the switch over or few months into it.

i think my PBS affiliate is sending out that much data. i don't use the feature currently though it was interesting to see future listings on this device.

I have seen at least 6 days on one station, but the guide appears to be memory limited, and won't fill up. It has even dropped info a few days out that I had seen in the guide earlier, so I often get little more than now/next -- when at the same time, I can see all 12 hours on my CM7000. If I want to know what's on tonight, I'm much more likely to find it on the CM. (TR40 F103)

If I want to know what's on tonight, I'm much more likely to find it on the CM. (TR40 F103)

I find that a bit hard to believe. Of coarse I have seen where the DTVPAL doesn't list info. for various channels until you tune to them... But I've usually not had problems seeing what is on that night on the DTVPAL if I want to find it.

It usually populates for the day very quickly after tuning in, if it hasn't already populated.

I have seen at least 6 days on one station, but the guide appears to be memory limited, and won't fill up. It has even dropped info a few days out that I had seen in the guide earlier, so I often get little more than now/next -- when at the same time, I can see all 12 hours on my CM7000. If I want to know what's on tonight, I'm much more likely to find it on the CM. (TR40 F103)Exactly. For all the raving about the Pal/TR-40's guide by "certain people" (you know who you are), I find that my CM's guide nearly always has info for what's on, where the Pal's guide info is extremely spotty.

So much for the Pal's "vastly superior" guide.

But I'm not gonna argue with anyone about it, because they apparently prefer it's "fancyness" or something. Being modeled exactly like the satellite guides (except that there's no PIP) is what impresses them the most. Many of them haven't even compared the guide to other boxes', so they're not even aware.

I find that a bit hard to believe.Like I said, it's entirely true - at least in my market, and apparently in TalkingRat's, too.

On advantage of the DTVpal's guide is you can see ALL the channels, whereas the CM7000 limits you to just one channel, so the DTVpal actually does show more information. .....I HAVE had the weather map cut off by the left shift in the DTVPal image (why would I lie about this?) so if the broadcaster put it within the safe zone then it is the DTVPal that is cutting it off. When you switch to the analog-version of the broadcast, do you see the whole map?

....When you switch to the analog-version of the broadcast, do you see the whole map?

Yes.

I have seen at least 6 days on one station, but the guide appears to be memory limited, and won't fill up. It has even dropped info a few days out that I had seen in the guide earlier, so I often get little more than now/next -- when at the same time, I can see all 12 hours on my CM7000. If I want to know what's on tonight, I'm much more likely to find it on the CM. (TR40 F103)

So, when you are viewing the guide, doesn't TR40 automatically update the guide as you scroll up/down through the channels? Also, is it not downloading the full guide when you turn it on? I'm comparing it to my Samsung DTB-H260F, which when it gets to a channel which the unit has not downloaded guide info, will go quiet for a few seconds while it downloads the guide info. I'm assuming that in the background it's tuning to the channels it needs guide info from while I wait.

Exactly. For all the raving about the Pal/TR-40's guide by "certain people" (you know who you are), I find that my CM's guide nearly always has info for what's on, where the Pal's guide info is extremely spotty.

So much for the Pal's "vastly superior" guide.

But I'm not gonna argue with anyone about it, because they apparently prefer it's "fancyness" or something. Being modeled exactly like the satellite guides (except that there's no PIP) is what impresses them the most. Many of them haven't even compared the guide to other boxes', so they're not even aware.

I believe the CM downloads guide data in real time, that's why it always has info. The downside is you have to keep changing channels to see data for other stations.

The Pal, on the other hand, has to cache as much data as it can at boot up in order to display info for several channels at once. The downisde, as you've seen, is sometimes data can't be saved. My Humax HD tuner does this too, so I'm used to it. And if you just switch to the channel with the empty listings, it should download the data. Not the end of the world.

I still prefer the Pals guide because a grid is just a much more efficient way of displaying listings. I find the list style EPGs of other CECBs very irritating because I can't look at listings for several channels at a glance.

I still prefer the Pals guide because a grid is just a much more efficient way of displaying listings. I find the list style EPGs of other CECBs very irritating because I can't look at listings for several channels at a glance.

Doesnt the Zenith/Insignia let you see several channels at once for whats on now? It's been a few days since I used mine so I cant remember.

I have spent several hours on the phone with customer service and technical support personal on numerous occasions the past couple of weeks with no help in warranty exchanging mr DTVPal that was not bought directly from Dish Network. I also tried a chat session and e-mail support as well with out any resolution. Today I tried the chat session again. I stated I have F100 wiyh timer issues. Then explained that I don't have an account. The chat representative stated that he was not authorized to set up replacements, and I would need to be transferred to the Dr.Dish Department. I said okay and he transferred me. After some time explaining my timer issue he proceeded to set up an account for me (what I have been trying to do for weeks now). He then set me up an account, then asked for my e-mail address. I was then told to check my e-mail because he sent me a pre-paid label (now I am very happy with this chat session). He provided me an RA# and my new account number.

It will be interesting to see what firmware I will get back.

Also, I got lucky because I purchased this unit on June 25th which means I only have about 2 days left on my warranty.

So you may want to try a chat session and ask to be transferred to the Dr.Dish Department.

Good Luck Everyone!

Doesnt the Zenith/Insignia let you see several channels at once for whats on now? It's been a few days since I used mine so I cant remember.
Yes, using the Guide button, you can scroll through all the channels using the > button.

...he sent me a pre-paid label...

So much for victims...umm...customers...who don't have a printer connected to their e-mail device. :p

So much for victims...umm...customers...who don't have a printer connected to their e-mail device. :p

Some times we can't win. I have the same problem since I use a Verizon Palm with an unlimited data plan.

[QUOTE=Whidbey;14709249]So, when you are viewing the guide, doesn't TR40 automatically update the guide as you scroll up/down through the channels? Also, is it not downloading the full guide when you turn it on? I'm comparing it to my Samsung DTB-H260F, which when it gets to a channel which the unit has not downloaded guide info, will go quiet for a few seconds while it downloads the guide info. I'm assuming that in the background it's tuning to the channels it needs guide info from while I wait.[/QUOTE

No, it updates when you turn it back on. Scrolling doesn't add anything. From what a CSR said a few pages back, while it's in standby, it deletes old guide info, and that makes space for more guide info when you turn the unit on again.

My first channel on the list has lots of guide info, maybe it uses up the available memory. I also have a couple channels that load each hour's time slot with the same nondescript thing, like "worship."

Some channels seem to be losing guide info they've already downloaded. If my heavy PSIP channel fills up the available memory, a channel that lost its guide may not have room to fill up again.

It is not always that way, but it happens often enough that if it's noon and I want to know what's on at 10 pm, I'll use the CM because it's hassle free. All my stations have typically been good at providing at least 12 hours out, and because I have the CM I know it's not their fault, the PSIP info is there.

This problem seemed to occur after I started getting the green light in standby. I suspect that's when it deletes old guide info. The very first time you turn it on, just about every station fills up with 24 hours worth. Over time, it's supposed to fill up the other days. But once my "good" station filled up 6+ days, and the second in line got close to that, I started getting "no info available" messages on other channels -- so it's my hunch my 6 day channel fills up first, and there's nothing left for anyone else.

From what a CSR said a few pages back, while it's in standby, it deletes old guide info, and that makes space for more guide info when you turn the unit on again.
...
Over time, it's supposed to fill up the other days. But once my "good" station filled up 6+ days, and the second in line got close to that, I started getting "no info available" messages on other channels -- so it's my hunch my 6 day channel fills up first, and there's nothing left for anyone else.

I haven't followed this thread in detail lately, but both of the features you noted above, if that's how the guide really works, are really dumb.

The first shouldn't happen, because it ought to be designed simply so that fresh data OVERWRITES existing data...deleting data in advance is a good way just to screw yourself...

As for the filling up memory with six days of data on just a couple of channels, it's hard to believe they would design a unit that way when it's supposed to have up to a week's data (as advertised) on multiple channels...

As for the filling up memory with six days of data on just a couple of channels, it's hard to believe they would design a unit that way when it's supposed to have up to a week's data (as advertised) on multiple channels...

Before I got my TR40, it seemed that the people reporting their guide filled up just fine had only a few substations, and those who had problems had 20+ substations. Many have commented that they don't get anywhere near 7 days, so their stations are not putting any strain on memory.

If anyone successfully gets multiple day guide info for all or most of their stations, without glitches like disappearing guide info, I'd love to get an idea of how much guide info the box can hold -- how many subchannels they get and how many days of guide info. That might tell us if there's a memory limitation.

I still prefer the Pals guide because a grid is just a much more efficient way of displaying listings. I find the list style EPGs of other CECBs very irritating because I can't look at listings for several channels at a glance.I actually agree with you - in theory, anyway - but my CM does seem to download more complete channel info in this market, like I said, even when I switch to the channel to get it to download - don't ask me why. The Pal will occasionally say "No Info" (or whatever - I haven't had it hooked up in weeks, so I don't recall what it says) more often than the CM. (My Samsung DTB-H260F is the same as your Humax and the Pal, so I'm already aware of how the Pal's guide data downloading works).

I've also had inconsistency with the amount of PSIP guide data shown among some of my other tuners, so the Pal's not the only one I've had do this.

I also was just trying to point out that the Pal's guide is not necessarily the greatest thing since sliced bread to everyone, like at least one particulary egocentric person around here claims it ought to be.

i'm trying the timers on the tr40 and one fired like it should. one problem i'm finding is how to pick the channel from the create timer menu. how do you pick the channel, the arrow keys just move the channel up and down but doesn't show you the channel picked. i see the empty boxes next to the channel and that icon that shows which channel is picked but it doesn't move with the channels. it's more of a guessing game which channel is picked you only find when you press the select remote key and the icon popsup in the box. i'm i doing it wrong

... Being modeled exactly like the satellite guides (except that there's no PIP) is what impresses them the most. Many of them haven't even compared the guide to other boxes', so they're not even aware.
How dare these people indicate happiness with the guide when they haven't even seen the guide that you like? :rolleyes:

It usually populates for the day very quickly after tuning in, if it hasn't already populated.

I played with it a bit this morning, and I was able to get more to fill in for missing channels, but at the expense of info from other channels. I tuned to the channel, and it did not fill in immediately, it took about 15 minutes before it showed up. When I got info for that channel, my 6 day channel went completely empty.

If I knew precisely how this thing worked, I could probably manipulate circumstances to find what I needed, but the now-you-see-it, now-you-don't stuff is really annoying. I played with it for another half hour, and deleted 4 channels to see if I that helps long term. I got the 6 day channel info on and off again, and the program detail also comes and goes. When I got the 6 day info, parts of the programming for a few other stations went blank. I can see what's on prime time for about half of the networks I watch. That's farther out that CM sees, but come noon, CM will show it all, and the TR40 will be adding and dropping info every time I look at the guide. Unless, dropping those 4 stations helps its memory.

Yesterday, after it being plugged in and on for several hours (~ 4) of football, during 60 Minutes the screen froze. The audio continued for less than a minute and then it seemed to just reboot. It turned itself off (I guess) the program guide started to download and then it continued on. I guess it is time to call customer service again.

Meanwhile, if you are not using any timers is there any reason to have the device even plugged in, let alone turned on when you are not using it?

Thanks.

Meanwhile, if you are not using any timers is there any reason to have the device even plugged in, let alone turned on when you are not using it?

Thanks.

Nope. Some CECBs even have a "hard" ON/OFF Switch so you can power down the CECB completely. If you've got a power strip that might be an easy way to kill the CECB without having to pull the plug all the time.

Only one person keeps jabbing about there not being a PIP in the DTVPal guide, (like the DISH satellite receiver.)

The satellite receiver doesn't really have PIP in the guide either. It does give the user the option of seeing a full guide or a "partial guide with video."
(One picture and the audio from the last channel tuned.) I think that would technically be referred to as PIG (picture in guide).
So the next time you chat with DISH reps, demand that they put a PIG in the Pal.

When a select guide, I prefer not to see a PIG.
I want to see the guide, the whole guide, and nothing but the guide. I have my satellite receiver set to see the full guide.

The option to see a PIG in the DTVPal guide may be desired by some.
Until it is included, if a user wants to continue to see the last channel tuned and browse the guide, they should simply learn to use the browse feature.

Only one person keeps jabbing about there not being a PIP in the DTVPal guide, (like the DISH satellite receiver.) Hehe, I'm not that one person, but that failing has bothered me also. I would like to have the option of "partial guide with video", rather than the full guide.

I think the DTVpal doesn't have this satellite receiver feature because it has to tune in each channel to keep the guide populated. Obviously it can't show you the current channel while doing that. Only trouble is, my DTVpal (F100) does not appear to be working that way. :confused: I'll have to think of a good test to know for sure. Maybe it would be to use the browse feature (with current channel video displayed) to locate a channel without data. Presumably when on and displaying another channel, the channel with missing data will never get populated. Then if I use the full-screen guide to view the same station, the data should be displayed.

So, when you are viewing the guide, doesn't TR40 automatically update the guide as you scroll up/down through the channels? .......

No, it updates when you turn it back on. Scrolling doesn't add anything.

I don't believe that I have any "memory full" problems with my guide as speculated some might have.
So my guide does update as I am in it, like Whidbey described. (on all firmware versions)

If a channel is showing "no information" in the guide even after just doing a guide download at power on,
when I choose it in the guide and then move to another channel in the guide, the missing info fills.

I have had occasions when the guide info doesn't fill as desribed, but those were station PSIP problems confirmed on other tuners.

You could also loose guide data at six days out, that was originally in the box when a station lessens the amount of guide data they are sending.
The stations are in control of most aspects of the guide info.

I could lose data that way, but it isn't supposed to update while it's on, right? Wasn't that the point of being told not to turn an F100 off, so it wouldn't download guide data and mess up the timers? But Beeper, as I said in post 4565, when it fills in one place, it loses info in another place, so I don't have data on my primary channels reliably.

forget it, figured how the channles on the timer work it was just hard to see the changing color on a B&W TV.

this timer issue is crazy, auto timers have been in use for over 30 years now. What the hell were they drinking when they programed this thing, it wasn't very well thought out and I'm guessing the DTVPAL Pulse will be the one done right thanks to all our problems being corrected. Yup if you don't want to pay return mailing cost let them forward your return to Dr. dish and they will email you a return postage paid label. I'm waiting for mine but the tech said he put in for it.

I could lose data that way, but it isn't supposed to update while it's on, right? Wasn't that the point of being told not to turn an F100 off, so it wouldn't download guide data and mess up the timers?

Only the guide download at power on will damage the timers. This was the reason to leave the box on.
The guide will also do discreet guide updates while it is on. That does not damage the timers.

But Beeper, as I said in post 4565, when it fills in one place, it loses info in another place, so I don't have data on my primary channels reliably.

Understood. That's why I stated that I don't believe I am being affected by the so-called "full memory" of the guide. I only have 24 channels & subs.
I was just pointing out that the guide will update while the box is on, if you move to the channel while in the guide or tune the channel outside of the guide. Results may vary if your memory is full.

How many channels & subs do you have anyway?

I'm guessing the DTVPAL Pulse will be the one done right thanks to all our problems being corrected.

Another new model? :rolleyes:

That's a much more electrifying brand name than the DTVPal Plus that they were going to release.

Only the guide download at power on will damage the timers. This was the reason to leave the box on.
The guide will also do discreet guide updates while it is on. That does not damage the timers.



Understood. That's why I stated that I don't believe I am being affected by the so-called "full memory" of the guide. I only have 24 channels & subs.
I was just pointing out that the guide will update while the box is on, if you move to the channel while in the guide or tune the channel outside of the guide. Results may vary if your memory is full.

How many channels & subs do you have anyway?

Thanks for the explanation. I had 23 and dumped 4 this morning.

I guess when it comes to the DTVPal, less is more.

Only one person keeps jabbing about there not being a PIP in the DTVPal guide, (like the DISH satellite receiver.)

The satellite receiver doesn't really have PIP in the guide either.I sure hope you're not referring to me. I have mentioned it on more than one occasion, but I wouldn't really say I jabbed at it. I never considered that a real fault of any of these CECB boxes. I wouldn't expect that from these low-end devices.

Maybe "PIP" isn't exactly the actual, correct term for it (more like "picture-in-guide"), but my Dish tuner does show the station that it's currently tuned to in it's guide, and that's what I was referring to.

How dare these people indicate happiness with the guide when they haven't even seen the guide that you like? :rolleyes:Actually, I said I like the Pal's guide, if you saw that. I've also admitted many times around here that I considered it the best guide - at least when it gets all the same info that some of my other tuners do.

The best way to say it is that none of the CECBs are perfect - pick which set of features / lack of features is important to you. For plain watching TV in the post transition world - any of them WILL accomplish the minimum.

Question on the DtvPal, if the power to the box is not constant, meaning I unplug the box or turn of a surge protector, will the box remember the settings and the channels that had been previously scanned?

Question on the DtvPal, if the power to the box is not constant, meaning I unplug the box or turn of a surge protector, will the box remember the settings and the channels that had been previously scanned?

Your DTVPAL/TR-40 will remember it's Channels and general "settings" without power.

Now the question is if you have an F100/F101 you might screw up your timer "settings" after power up (almost 100% certain).

If you have a F103 or later you should be OK.

I had issues with my DTVPALs not getting certain channels so I "scanned" using my Grandma's antenna (She gets ALL the area channels) and powered them down and took them home... No problem.

Successfully waded through the Dish of BS to get a RA#. Six or eight different people (lost count) with one claiming I have to pay $68.94 for the replacement. They really don't want to deal with anyone who didn't buy it from them. And mentioning "ebay" is the kiss of death.

I asked and was told that the "order" (apparently the RA# is an order number) does not have an expiration date. Since it's just a paperweight until February anyway I don't see why I need to rush. But I'd bet orders actually do have a secret limited lifespan.

Is the preprinted label that comes back with the replacement box also prepaid? Anyone not need theirs? :)

It's approaching the point where it would have cost less to let the 1st coupon expire and buy a TR40 without one. Thanks Dish.

Before I got my TR40, it seemed that the people reporting their guide filled up just fine had only a few substations, and those who had problems had 20+ substations. Many have commented that they don't get anywhere near 7 days, so their stations are not putting any strain on memory.

If anyone successfully gets multiple day guide info for all or most of their stations, without glitches like disappearing guide info, I'd love to get an idea of how much guide info the box can hold -- how many subchannels they get and how many days of guide info. That might tell us if there's a memory limitation.

With TR-40CRA (F103)......
I've never seen more than 48 hours of data (and even that's rare)......
and on only three or four of my channels (I'm only receiving approx. 30 channels total)!
Generally I get no more than 12-24 hours of program data.
If this is a memory issue, there's a serious lack of memory available!
I find the EPG on this box to be very unreliable. It's seems like every time I go to use it, the situation is different. Often I get "no information" (on many channels). Other times I'll get the name of the program but no additional info.
I'm in the NYC area and this just shouldn't be! :confused:

I asked and was told that the "order" (apparently the RA# is an order number) does not have an expiration date. Since it's just a paperweight until February anyway I don't see why I need to rush. But I'd bet orders actually do have a secret limited lifespan.


Why is it "just a paperweight until February"? :confused:

Are there any sightings of a post F103 software version for the TR-40CRA?

OK, I have a F101 that will hit the 90-day warranty expiration in a week or so. I'd like to exchange it for a box that at least fixes the disappearing/corrupted event timer problem. I assume I need to get myself into the system in the next few days so that my only cost will be shipping, under warranty.

What is the best way to do that? I fired off an email to (tech at echostar dot com) describing the problem, mentioning that I've researched it on the net and that I know many other customers have the same issue, and including my name, email, and s/w version. Is anything good likely to come of that quickly? Chat was "unavailable" late at night; should I try that during the day? Recent posts seem to recommend setting up an "account" with "Dr. Dish". Or, do I need to bite the bullet and phone them at their 1-888 number? I did not originally buy this box through them; I internet-ordered from digitalstar.com. I have no other business relationship with Dish.

Thanks for any response, and retroactively for all the info posted over the last several months. "What a long, strange trip it's been..."

--gary

Quite an expectation from someone that has been misspelling simple words in his posts the last couple days. My mistakes don't cost YOU money. Dish' or other companies mistakes DO cost you money out of pocket. Therefore, like car companies, refrigerator companies, or any other appliance, the software companies should thoroughly test their equipment to get it right the first time.

And if they don't get it right, *free* updates should be made available, else we the people should be able to sue them under various lemon laws.

I'm tired of buying stuff where the software is broke.

OK, I have a F101 that will hit the 90-day warranty expiration in a week or so. I'd like to exchange it for a box that at least fixes the disappearing/corrupted event timer problem. I assume I need to get myself into the system in the next few days so that my only cost will be shipping, under warranty.

What is the best way to do that?

Chat was "unavailable" late at night; should I try that during the day? Recent posts seem to recommend setting up an "account" with "Dr. Dish".

--gary

I recommend chat with Dr Dish (I think if the customer service ID in the chat includes "DrD", that's the right department. Even though they may not be familiar with the procedure, if you walk them through the need to create the account and tell them about the timer corruption problem, they'll set up the RA# and you can save a verbatim record of the chat in case you need it later. Worked for me (same situation re warranty and 3rd party purchase).

You may want to wait a day to see if they email you a shipping label.

John

Thanks for the explanation. I had 23 and dumped 4 this morning.

The stations are sending the PSIP guide data in 3 hour blocks at set intervals similar to how the clock time is sent.
The front guide data is generally sent at shorter intervals than the farther out guide data.

Another way you can witness the guide data refresh while powered on is to add a new channel.
If you access the new channel in the guide, it should show the guide info for the new channel.
Sometimes you may have to tune the new channel to fill in the guide data.

OK, I have a F101 that will hit the 90-day warranty expiration in a week or so. I'd like to exchange it for a box that at least fixes the disappearing/corrupted event timer problem. I assume I need to get myself into the system in the next few days so that my only cost will be shipping, under warranty.

Not to be greedy, but is it assumed that F100/F101 are the only "exchange" worthy DTVPALs at this time? Got several F103s and wouldn't mind F106s but given the hard ships in dealing with DISH "pushing" it with "functional" units might be a bit much.

gac_1959 and all the other F100/F101 owners (got a few of those too) start jumping those hoops. Don't let the warranty expire without DISH having "resolved" the issue.

Not to be greedy, but is it assumed that F100/F101 are the only "exchange" worthy DTVPALs at this time? Got several F103s and wouldn't mind F106s but given the hard ships in dealing with DISH "pushing" it with "functional" units might be a bit much. I don't know the answer, but my plan is to wait until January and then ask Dish to trade my F100 for the latest revision (110 perhaps?). Credit card companies also provide warranties where the companies fail to act properly. Credit card companies require their partners ship working items, otherwise they reverse the charge. Dish has signed that agreement & must abide by it.

Therefore if you return your non-functioning DTVpal, with proof-of-delivery, you can ask your credit card company to refund the charge.

this timer issue is crazy, auto timers have been in use for over 30 years now. ...

Cannot resist:
And where are those programmers, now?

The algorithm definitions are probably there too.

Not to be greedy, but is it assumed that F100/F101 are the only "exchange" worthy DTVPALs at this time? Got several F103s and wouldn't mind F106s but given the hard ships in dealing with DISH "pushing" it with "functional" units might be a bit much.

gac_1959 and all the other F100/F101 owners (got a few of those too) start jumping those hoops. Don't let the warranty expire without DISH having "resolved" the issue.


Your assumption is correct. From speaking to Kevin, they know what software versions have the timer issues originally reported, and which serial numbers have which softare versions. So if the serial number on your box is in the F100/101 range, they will let you do the exchange. Otherwise you may be out of luck (unless you get a CSR that slips up and lets you do an exchange anyway).

Cannot resist:
And where are those programmers, now?

The algorithm definitions are probably there too.

iinside you VCR and Beta max and any other device with a programmable timer. My god does TVIO have this problem and i hear it can even program itself.

Why is it "just a paperweight until February"? :confused:

No direct TV reception. I don't expect the translators to begin relaying digital signals until after all analog has gone completely dark. Wouldn't even have one of these demon boxes if it weren't for getting trapped between "Supplies are limited." and "Expires after 90 days.".

I got an email response from "Tech" today about 12 hours after my initial (and only, so far) email. It was the "based on the information you provided, we have determined that your unit needs to be replaced" message, along with a number (1-800-333-3474) to "complete the exchange". Will call that in the morning. It also had a chat link (will try that if the phone call is unsatisfactory) and was signed by "Amber P.".

--Gary

Next time someone on here talks to dish about the DTVPAL/TR40 ask them who was the genius that figured it was fine to make the timers turn on the box but not off after the event is over. Why they felt it was better to let the box remain on for a minimum of 4 hours after a timer event then just let the box turn itself off.

I have been reading through these forums for a while and finally requested a replacement for my F100 based unit on Monday. It is supposed to arrive on Thursday and I then have to put my old unit in the box and send it back. I bought the unit from Sears at the end of July and had been waiting until the 90 day warranty was almost up to do the swap. However, I started having the missing video at power on problem and decided with the F106 version being shipped that perhaps I should do the swap before I forget.

Overall I have been rather pleased with the device as it is a bit more sensitive than my Wally-World Magnavox box. The only complaints I have are; 1) the inability to enter a channel number if the channel you are on has no signal and 2) the inability to program a channel number that has no signal at the moment. I like to DX stations and some channels do not always have a signal. The Magnavox box lets me program any channel I want. That has been a problem here on Long Island with PBS station WNET, channel 13. Their DTV station on channel 61 is very low power due to not having recovered from their transmitter loss on 9/11. It is hit or miss if I can get their signal. It took a while before I was able to finally program them in.

Next time someone on here talks to dish about the DTVPAL/TR40 ask them who was the genius that figured it was fine to make the timers turn on the box but not off after the event is over. Why they felt it was better to let the box remain on for a minimum of 4 hours after a timer event then just let the box turn itself off.

Not sure it's 4 hours AFTER the timer event is finished. It might be 4 hours from activity (timer fired) until timer duration is over. So a 12 noon timer that goes until 5 pm might power down a short time after that...

They might have designed the DTVPAL timers NOT to power down to allow for "soft" padding of a program.

How many programs on TV today have strange run times that may run long and not always conform to the official guide. Sports might be an easy example. It could also allow for Marathon Recording... While a CECB can't get Sci-Fi channel there is a a Lost Marathon on Mondays from 7-11ET. If a broadcast channel had the same thing that would be all 5 timers. Since the DTVPAL doesn't power down after a Timer you could setup a Weekly timer at 7ET and a standby shutdown of 5 hours. That would leave you with 4 timers for other events. If there are other programs (local news?) on the channel after the Marathon you could make other adjustments and have the recorder record those programs too.

They might have designed the DTVPAL timers NOT to power down to allow for "soft" padding of a program.

Rationalizing. It wouldn't do you any good to have the box stay on past the programmed end time if the VCR isn't also programmed to record for that extra time. If you gave it that much thought to program your VCR for that duration, you would program the box the same way.

.

Latest official DISH resolution for remote control conflicts between certain model DISH satellite receivers and the DTVPal or TR-40cra.

As previously discussed, anyone having a remote control conflict with a DISH satellite receiver and the DTVPal
can use a second DISH satellite remote (or a universal remote) as a fix.

The new information here is, if you contact DISH and they have on record that your satellite receiver is a model that is affected by the DTVPal remote, they will send you a model 3.2 remote control. Even though I own my satellite receiver, DISH sent the remote free of charge.

The 3.2 remote looks similar to and has all of the same buttons in the same locations as the DTVPal remote, but the button labels will not match the DTVPal labels. You will have to be familiar with the DTVPal remote button functions before using the 3.2 remote.

1. Change the satellite remote address number showing on the satellite system info screen to a number higher than 1. (Instructions below.)
Use the DISH remote (or universal remote's SAT mode) that matches the receiver address number, to use your satellite receiver.

2. Using the SAT mode button on the 3.2 remote, a spare satellite remote (or a universal remote's STB or AUX mode) set only the remote address number to 1 (DISH STB). That remote will be used for the DTVPal.

The remote used for the DTVPal will now also have other benefits such as controlling your TV power and volume as well as a VCR and amplifier.

Beeper


To set the remote address number on most DISH receivers and the remote.
Keep in mind that the remote address number can be changed on the receiver and remote, or on just the remote and not the receiver.

1. Press the system info button and look for the remote address number. Default should be 1.
The system info screen can also be accessed through the menu.

2. Press and hold the remote's SAT mode button until all of the mode buttons light, then release it.

3. Using the number pad, enter a number higher than 1, up to 15 and press the pound key (#).
A valid code will cause the SAT mode button to flash three times.

4. After waiting for the three flashes, press the record button and you will see the remote address number change on the system info screen.

5. Exit the system info screen and verify that the remote works the satellite receiver.

To set the remote address code on the 3.2 remote only and not the satellite receiver. To use for the DTVPal/TR-40.

Follow the instructions above, starting at #2 and ending at #3, except use address number 1. Skip instructions #4 and #5.

Any time you want to verify the remote address number set on a particular DISH satellite remote, press and hold the SAT button until all mode buttons light. Then press the pound (#) button twice. The SAT button will then flash the number of times matching the set address number.

Okay so the box stays on. That's 0.005 kilowatts times 24 hours * 9 cents per kWh where I live ==

1 penny per day.

I'm not concerned about the power costs, but this bothers me: $70 for a DTVplus?!?!? Jeez.

From dtvpal.com

What is the difference between TR-40 CRA, DTVPal and DTVPal Plus?

TR-40 CRA is a special limited production version of the DTVPal. Offered at the government coupon price of $40, the TR-40 CRA includes the highly-acclaimed features and functionality of the DTVPal. DTVPal Plus has the same features and functionality of the DTVPal but includes an enhanced digital tuner. This tuner enables consumers to get even better reception in weak signal conditions such as with indoor antennas or for distant TV signal transmitters. DTVPal Plus is the second generation of DTVPal and is priced at $29.99 with a $40 government coupon.

Rationalizing. It wouldn't do you any good to have the box stay on past the programmed end time if the VCR isn't also programmed to record for that extra time. If you gave it that much thought to program your VCR for that duration, you would program the box the same way.

Well what else is there to do but "rationalize" why it doesn't force a power down?

I could also rationalize that it's just simpler to program timers to fire and let it go into "standby" by itself.

We are treating these timers like VCR Timers... when we should probably think of them simply as Channel Switcher Timers. For someone that wants to just watch TV (NO RECORDING) these event timers would work perfectly. People would really complain if the timers turned off "on time".

Say you come home after work and watch local news. You can setup a Timer. You watch certain programs each day, setup a timer. Your "regular" TV viewing experience wouldn't change that much. Just turn on the TV.

If you need to "surf" you can do that... But your "Favorite" channels are ON when you switch on the TV and your Recording Device can easily capture your "Favorites" with very little trouble. Probably a great "hidden" feature for customers that don't want to LEARN the converter box... Just want to continue viewing the "old fashioned" way.

Technically DISH calls them Event Timers right? Not VCR timers. So lets stop calling them, or thinking of them as, VCR timers. They are ment to turn ON the CECB to "catch" an event. It then powers down (or not) when it is either turned OFF by the user or goes into standby. This allows for the most flexibility. You can either WATCH and/or Record with this setup.

Kind of like my UTV DVR's "reminder" feature where it can tune to a certain program. It won't power down until the user turns it off... so it continues to show that channel so you can watch it, record it, review it (Rewind/FF) if/when you want. The "reminder" offers the most flexibility with as little "harm" to a user's viewing pleasure.

The DTVPAL "event timers" are providing the least "harmful" way of tuning channels. It checks for timer duration conflicts but otherwise is "hands off". You do what you want with the Tuner Output.

My Experience with Dish Live Chat

I've had several calls to Dish Network Customer Support and none of them have been a fun experience. I'm amazed at how little most techs know about the DTV Pal. I called last Thursday and after getting transferred and disconnected twice, finally got on with someone who was somewhat helpful. He knew nothing about the timer issues with the DTV Pal, but arranged (so I thought) to send me a replacement unit that should have been delivered on Monday. Since I hadn't received the replacement unit, I decided to give the live chat a try. I found out that I will need to ship my Pal to Dish, before they will ship a replacement, but they are sending me shipping labels to do it. Here is what transpired.

You have been connected to (24DrDcb) Matthew S..
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: Thank you for choosing Dish Network Chat Support. Please give me a moment while I review your technical Issue.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: I apologize you are having issues, and I will be happy to assist you.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: Can you please verify your home phone number and address for me?
Scott Allen: Home phone is xxx-xxx-xxxx. Address is xxxxxxx.
Scott Allen: I believe my account is listed under my cell phone - xxx-xxx-xxxx.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: OK, one moment for me pleae.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: I will take a look at everything for you.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: This will take me a few minutes to research.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: Can you please hold?
Scott Allen: No problem.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: I am still here with you.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: One moment for me.
Scott Allen: OK
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: OK.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: The return was set as a post receipt exchange.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: This means you have to send the DTV Pal into us first.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: Then we ship the receiver out for you.
Scott Allen: I wasn't given any information to send it back. I was told they would ship the replacement to me and then I would ship the defective unit back.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: That was incorrect.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: I do apologize.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: This is what you need to do:
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: Your RA number is XXXXXXXX.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: You will need that.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: You will need to send the DTVPal to:RA#___________
DISH NETWORK SERVICE
90 INVERNESS CIRCLE EAST
ENGLEWOOD, CO 80112
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: In that format.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: When we receive it, the replacement will be mailed out immediately.
Scott Allen: OK. What firmware will the replacement unit have?
Scott Allen: Do you know?
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: I am not sure to be honest.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: There are several versions available.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: Not sure which one you will get.
Scott Allen: I don't want to send it back unless I know I'm getting one that's fixed.
Scott Allen: Especially if I'm paying for it.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: I understand that.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: But I can't guarantee what firmware you will get.
Scott Allen: So if the problem isn't fixed, I'll have to send it back again?
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: If you continue to have the same issue, yes.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: But I doubt you will have the problem again.
Scott Allen: I don't want to send my unit back (at my cost) until I can be assured that I will be getting one that is fixed.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: I will adjust $10 off of your account.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: That should cover the shipping costs.
Scott Allen: But I don't have Dish Network service.
Scott Allen: So putting that $ on my account doesn't mean anything to me.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: I can email you some labels.
Scott Allen: That would be great.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: One moment.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: It will take me a few minutes.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: I do apologize.
Scott Allen: No problem. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: OK.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: I have emailed them to you.
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: You should receive it in a few hours.
Scott Allen: Thank you very much!
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: You are very welcome!
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: Thank you for being so cooperative throughout the chat session and also for providing me an opportunity to assist you today. Have a great day!
Scott Allen: Bye!
(24DrDcb) Matthew S.: Bye.

so is the Plus only available through Dish?

Did all of you who arranged an exchange of the DTVPal box buy them through Echostar?
My girlfriend who has DTVPal / F100 boxes that she purchased through Cheapdigitalconverters.com has been going round and round with Echostar customer service and technical support.

Although tech support intially emailed that she could call to exchange the boxes, she has had several calls with customer service and tech support.

They insist she must have an account in order to get help and since she didn't buy direct from Echostar and has no account they won't exchange the boxes.

Did all of you who arranged an exchange of the DTVPal box buy them through Echostar?
My girlfriend who has DTVPal / F100 boxes that she purchased through Cheapdigitalconverters.com has been going round and round with Echostar customer service and technical support.

Although tech support intially emailed that she could call to exchange the boxes, she has had several calls with customer service and tech support.

They insist she must have an account in order to get help and since she didn't buy direct from Echostar and has no account they won't exchange the boxes.
I bought my Pal from DigitalStar.com (F100 version). Dish established an account for me so I could exchange the unit and they gave me an F101. I've now gotten a second replacement (F106 version). I handled most things by email. When I sent my F101 in for replacement, I included my remote -- mistake. The F106 is a refurbished unit and they forgot to return a remote with it. Supposedly one is en route to me now.

Did all of you who arranged an exchange of the DTVPal box buy them through Echostar?
My girlfriend who has DTVPal / F100 boxes that she purchased through Cheapdigitalconverters.com has been going round and round with Echostar customer service and technical support.

Although tech support intially emailed that she could call to exchange the boxes, she has had several calls with customer service and tech support.

They insist she must have an account in order to get help and since she didn't buy direct from Echostar and has no account they won't exchange the boxes.

I bought my DTVPal off E-Bay. I tried calling and only got the run around since I didn't have an account. The only way I got resolution was using the Dish Network's on line chat and getting transferred to the Dr. Dish department. The Dr. Dish employee sat up an account for me, gave me an RMA#, and e-mailed me a prepaid UPS label. You may want to give the on line chat a try. Good Luck!

For what its worth.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-24-2008/0004891945&EDATE=

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/149411-dish-network-launches-dtvpal-plus.html

I wonder what software version is in this one...jesh!

how long did it take to get your mailing labels, i haven't gotten mine yet

Well what else is there to do but "rationalize" why it doesn't force a power down?

I could also rationalize that it's just simpler to program timers to fire and let it go into "standby" by itself.

We are treating these timers like VCR Timers... when we should probably think of them simply as Channel Switcher Timers. For someone that wants to just watch TV (NO RECORDING) these event timers would work perfectly. People would really complain if the timers turned off "on time".

Say you come home after work and watch local news. You can setup a Timer. You watch certain programs each day, setup a timer. Your "regular" TV viewing experience wouldn't change that much. Just turn on the TV.

If you need to "surf" you can do that... But your "Favorite" channels are ON when you switch on the TV and your Recording Device can easily capture your "Favorites" with very little trouble. Probably a great "hidden" feature for customers that don't want to LEARN the converter box... Just want to continue viewing the "old fashioned" way.

Technically DISH calls them Event Timers right? Not VCR timers. So lets stop calling them, or thinking of them as, VCR timers. They are ment to turn ON the CECB to "catch" an event. It then powers down (or not) when it is either turned OFF by the user or goes into standby. This allows for the most flexibility. You can either WATCH and/or Record with this setup.

Kind of like my UTV DVR's "reminder" feature where it can tune to a certain program. It won't power down until the user turns it off... so it continues to show that channel so you can watch it, record it, review it (Rewind/FF) if/when you want. The "reminder" offers the most flexibility with as little "harm" to a user's viewing pleasure.

The DTVPAL "event timers" are providing the least "harmful" way of tuning channels. It checks for timer duration conflicts but otherwise is "hands off". You do what you want with the Tuner Output.

are you that lazy you can't use the remote to change channels. ever minute the DTVPAL/tr40 is on it's susceptible to heat damage in the box or power transformer and power surges. there never should have been a limit on these devices in the first place. who would spend a lot of money on these for an analog tv and i don't think the timer as a advanced feature.

DTVPAL pulse New Enhanced digital tuner, so this means DTVPAL/tr40 came with an old crappie one. dish is milking this for all they can, gross.

.

Pertains to remote control conflicts between certain model DISH satellite receivers and the DTVPal or TR-40cra.

As previously discussed, anyone having a remote control conflict with a DISH satellite receiver and the DTVPal
can use a second DISH satellite remote (or a universal remote) as a fix.

If you contact DISH and they have on record that your satellite receiver is a model that is affected by the DTVPal remote,
they will send you a model 3.2 remote control. Even though I own my satellite receiver, DISH sent the remote free of charge.

The 3.2 remote looks similar to and has all of the same buttons in the same locations as the DTVPal remote, but the button labels will not match the DTVPal labels. You will have to be familiar with the DTVPal remote button functions before using the 3.2 remote.

1. Change the satellite remote address number showing on the satellite system info screen to a number higher than 1. (Instructions below.)
Use the DISH remote (or universal remote's SAT mode) that matches the receiver address number, to use your satellite receiver.

2. Using the SAT mode button on the 3.2 remote, a spare satellite remote (or a universal remote's STB or AUX mode) set only the remote address number to 1 (DISH STB). That remote will be used for the DTVPal.

The remote used for the DTVPal will now also have other benefits such as controlling your TV power and volume as well as a VCR and amplifier.

Beeper


To set the remote address number on most DISH receivers and the remote.
Keep in mind that the remote address number can be changed on the receiver and remote, or on just the remote and not the receiver.

1. Press the system info button and look for the remote address number. Default should be 1.
The system info screen can also be accessed through the menu.

2. Press and hold the remote's SAT mode button until all of the mode buttons light, then release it.

3. Using the number pad, enter a number higher than 1, up to 15 and press the pound key (#).
A valid code will cause the SAT mode button to flash three times.

4. After waiting for the three flashes, press the record button and you will see the remote address number change on the system info screen.

5. Exit the system info screen and verify that the remote works the satellite receiver.

To set the remote address code on the 3.2 remote only and not the satellite receiver. To use for the DTVPal/TR-40.

Follow the instructions above, starting at #2 and ending at #3, except use address number 1. Skip instructions #4 and #5.

Any time you want to verify the remote address number set on a particular DISH satellite remote, press and hold the SAT button until all mode buttons light. Then press the pound (#) button twice. The SAT button will then flash the number of times matching the set address number.

Boy this sounds very familiar...

DTVPAL pulse New Enhanced digital tuner, so this means DTVPAL/tr40 came with an old crappie one. dish is milking this for all they can, gross.


Dagger...

Is that new version the "DTVPal Pulse", or the "DTVPal Plus"?

As for the tuner on the original, that's the one part of my two I CAN'T complain about.

For what its worth.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-24-2008/0004891945&EDATE=

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/149411-dish-network-launches-dtvpal-plus.html

I wonder what software version is in this one...jesh!


I love the bottom of the ad-
"...Consumers can also prepare for the digital transition by subscribing to pay television..."

And isn't that what buying an OTA tuner for free TV is all about? Ending up with pay television? :confused:

That's the same thing I took away from the release.

It is when you're Dish Network...

Enhanced tuner = Dish had to pay another 50 cents for it. There's no reason to believe the Plus is anything other than an F106 Pal with a different tuner.

And isn't that what buying an OTA tuner for free TV is all about? Ending up with pay television? :confused:

There isn't any such thing as free TV. :eek:

Unless you don't buy any of the products from the advertisers that pass the advertising cost on to you.

Or don't pay federal taxes that support the FCC.

Boy this sounds very familiar...

As mentioned, some of it is a rehash.

What's new is that DISH actually acted to resolve the problem during my latest contact instead of telling me to wait.
Only about 1/2 hour and one disconnect this time while on tech "two minute hold".

All the info needed to help others is now in one post instead of spread all over the place or no longer available after the server crash.

are you that lazy you can't use the remote to change channels. ever minute the DTVPAL/tr40 is on it's susceptible to heat damage in the box or power transformer and power surges. there never should have been a limit on these devices in the first place. who would spend a lot of money on these for an analog tv and i don't think the timer as a advanced feature.

Nope, just letting you know of other devices with similar "features". My UTV's "reminder" feature can be used two ways. One it simply pops up a "reminder" stating "Show X" is on in a minute do you want to change channels? Or you can set it to change the channel for you automatically. You can cancel it if you are watching something else. I can see the "Event Timers" being something similar. You have your "Favorite" shows/channels that you watch regularly and you simply switch on the TV/Recorder at certain times of the day and watch/record without needing to do much else.

As for power surges and heat damage. The PAL is susceptible to this even when "OFF". So I don't accept the argument that actually using a CECB to watch TV is a serious cause for concern.

Are you saying no "Limit" on Timers? I'm not sure I understand, 5 is a bit low but unlimited seems a bit much for a CECB. Please explain.

Spend a lot of money? Depending on the original models you aren't spending more then other "typical" CECBs. The event timer is still an "advanced" feature since few other CECBs (1 non-Dish model?) have it.

I don't see an Event Timer/Channel Switcher being a lazy feature just a convenience item to provide the most flexibility to the user. Others have mentioned using it as a channel switcher and setting up recorders accordingly. As I mentioned if the Event Timer actually shutdown the PAL after a show this would make those actually watching/recording the channel rather upset.

There isn't any such thing as free TV. :eek: Unless you don't buy any of the products from the advertisers that pass the advertising cost on to you. I do not.

Also it's worth noting that if advertisers stopped advertising, the unit price would increase, due to fewer sales and decreased economy of scale. So advertising actually LOWERS per-unit pricing. Or don't pay federal taxes that support the FCC. Ehhh, it's only 1/2 a penny per year per citizen, and that's subdivided across the entire band from shortwave all the way up to gigahertz bluetooth. So yeah, I guess I pay a whole 0.001 penny for my portion of the television and FM radio bands. :-)

Originally Posted by Beeper
There isn't any such thing as free TV. Unless you don't buy any of the products from the advertisers that pass the advertising cost on to you.

I do not.

Hard to believe that you have never paid to eat at a restaurant or bought a bar of soap, a soft drink or a beer.

There isn't any such thing as free TV. :eek:

Unless you don't buy any of the products from the advertisers that pass the advertising cost on to you.

Or don't pay federal taxes that support the FCC.

:rolleyes:

I still have to pay those taxes if I've got cable or satellite, and the same commercials run when those services carry OTAs. Commercials run on cable channels too.

This therefore means there's only one difference between pay TV (cable or satellite) and OTA television.

What is that difference?

You don't have to PAY for the OTA variety.

That makes it FREE. ;)

Originally Posted by Beeper
There isn't any such thing as free TV. Unless you don't buy any of the products from the advertisers that pass the advertising cost on to you.


Hard to believe that you have never paid to eat at a restaurant or bought a bar of soap, a soft drink or a beer.

I'd like to say I "do not" let advertisements influence me... Heck I have DVRs at home so I can skip the ads... Yet they do have an influence when I see them, if for no other reason then letting me know that a product is available.

I might not buy a car with heated washer wiper jets... But I may let someone else know they exist or can be added to a vehicle... Thereby increasing the sales of the product.

Lets not get into all the TV/DVD/Movie ads that hook me... :)

Hard to believe that you have never paid to eat at a restaurant or bought a bar of soap, a soft drink or a beer. I don't buy the hyped products on tv; I usually buy the generic stuff, or the store brand stuff, because it works as good but costs less.

I have ate at McDonalds from time-to-time, but I don't think my dollar-hamburger was a huge impact on my wallet. Also it's worth noting that if advertisers stopped advertising, the unit price would increase, due to fewer sales and decreased economy of scale. So advertising actually LOWERS per-unit pricing.

Hard to believe that you have never paid to eat at a restaurant or bought a bar of soap, a soft drink or a beer.
I NEVER eat at commercial restaurants - do most all my own food preparation 24/7/365. Don't use advertised soap brands - coop bulk is fine with me. Had one beer in my life and absolutely HATED it. And no carbonated beverages have passed my lips in probably 30 years. Yeah, there are some of us out there . . .

and Windoze-Free to boot.

Rock On...Survivors. You folks march by your own drummer and more should too.

:rolleyes:

I still have to pay those taxes if I've got cable or satellite, and the same commercials run when those services carry OTAs. Commercials run on cable channels too.

This therefore means there's only one difference between pay TV (cable or satellite) and OTA television.

What is that difference?

In both situations, your (cable, satellite) cost is more than you realize and so is your so-called free TV cost. If cable/satellite providers didn't have advertising revenue, your monthly bill would be higher. If OTA TV providers didn't have advertising revenue, guess what would happen.
You'd be paying for it directly, instead of indirectly.

And, with digital TV allowing more OTA channels, there will be more of the same ads on more channels costing the advertisers more money
that they will recoup from their customers.

Whether you don't watch TV at all, or you have cable, satellite, OTA, etc. you are subsidizing the cost and availability
when you purchase an advertiser's products or services. Some people may pay a small amount while others pay more. Either way, it is a cost.

The advertisers don't eat the high cost of TV advertising, they pass it on to their customers.

Many people are also under the impression that radio is free.

I have ate at McDonalds from time-to-time,...


I suspected that your reply "I do not" wasn't quite accurate. That's probably most people's initial reaction until they think about it a little longer.

Most people don't realize how much they are subsidizing so-called free TV and radio until that fact is brought to their attention.

Free TV myth (or lie)? Decide for yourself. http://www.freewarehof.org/tv.html

I have never seen a forum where people spend so much time saying nothing.
Why not just discuss what the forum name indicates.

I have never seen a forum where people spend so much time saying nothing.
Why not just discuss what the forum name indicates.
+1 some folks to tend to veer off topic more than others.;)

I guess the lack of DTVPal talk means the latest firmware versions are working properly? Can anyone who has had the new firmware version for a while comment on how the timers work? Is now finally a good time to buy a DTVPal?

Why bother with the Pal...just get the DTVPal plus. Or wait until Early February and see if they come out with an even more advanced model.

Theres still the TR50 coming out, which would eliminate the need for a DTVPal alltogether(and it better damn well have that silicon tuner in it...none of this 300 bucks crap for the TR-50 and then 4 months later the TR-50 plus for 450 :mad:). You know it's gonna have the same remote codes...so you wont be able to use them side by side anyway.


+1 some folks to tend to veer off topic more than others.;)

Ehhh...theres nothing wrong with a little OT/informal discussion now and then...it keeps things friendly and relaxed. Otherwise, we might as well be like some of the more Facist-ic boards where you submit replys to the moderator, who's never impartial, and then they decide whether it should be posted or not. How sad.

Enhanced tuner = Dish had to pay another 50 cents for it. There's no reason to believe the Plus is anything other than an F106 Pal with a different tuner.

According to a post at Satellite guys:
..."It's the same one in the DVR as in the Plus. The DTVPal Plus uses a Silicon tuner from Microtune instead of the old Thompson "can" tuner.

FYI, it's the same tuner as in the Sansonic and Lasonic CECBs that got top ratings for picture quality."...

According to a post at Satellite guys:
..."It's the same one in the DVR as in the Plus. The DTVPal Plus uses a Silicon tuner from Microtune instead of the old Thompson "can" tuner.

FYI, it's the same tuner as in the Sansonic and Lasonic CECBs that got top ratings for picture quality."...

For $70 it should be better.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10050315-1.html

Now, if we could just get them to do the replacement of our DTVPals with the Plus model for all our hard work as Beta testers.....

According to a post at Satellite guys:
..."It's the same one in the DVR as in the Plus. The DTVPal Plus uses a Silicon tuner from Microtune instead of the old Thompson "can" tuner.

FYI, it's the same tuner as in the Sansonic and Lasonic CECBs that got top ratings for picture quality."...http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14740019&postcount=47

I guess the lack of DTVPal talk means the latest firmware versions are working properly? Can anyone who has had the new firmware version for a while comment on how the timers work? Is now finally a good time to buy a DTVPal?

I'm still waiting to go for the replacement hassle.
Maybe by version 110 they will get ALL the "know" and "admitted" bugs out.

Now, if we could just get them to do the replacement of our DTVPals with the Plus model for all our hard work as Beta testers.....

Yeah, dream on!! ;)

I guess the lack of DTVPal talk means the latest firmware versions are working properly? Can anyone who has had the new firmware version for a while comment on how the timers work? Is now finally a good time to buy a DTVPal?

I have F103 and it isn't fixed. It loses its CBS lock and then either drifts, or it assumes the time of the last channel it was on -- either can cause timer issues. I knew when it assumed the time of the station it was on, because that station's clock stopped for a couple days.

From what I've read here, F106 doesn't seem to be any different.

I have F103 and it isn't fixed. It loses its CBS lock and then either drifts, or it assumes the time of the last channel it was on -- either can cause timer issues. I knew when it assumed the time of the station it was on, because that station's clock stopped for a couple days.

From what I've read here, F106 doesn't seem to be any different.

Ummm...

The 103 is already known to not be fixed. The 106 seems to have fixed the timer problem, but not entirely. Someone pointed out that there's a glitch if you set up a program a week down the road within an hour or two of the same clock time the recording is for.

If it's 8pm Sunday and you set a recording for next Sunday at 7pm, the recording somehow ends up being for 4:30pm next Sunday.

Yep.

A little more work to be done...

I have never seen a forum where people spend so much time saying nothing.
Why not just discuss what the forum name indicates.


Well, which is it? Are we saying something, or nothing? If we're spending a lot of time talking, we must be talking about something. So how is it you say we're discussing nothing?

Considering your closing question, it seems your real point is that we're discussing things that are side points to the box this thread is about. Well, that's called conversation. If those posts don't provide you info you're looking for about the DTVPal, then the thing to do is move on and look for other posts that do. Not to try and tell others what they can and can't talk about.

Ummm...

The 103 is already known to not be fixed. The 106 seems to have fixed the timer problem.

So which part of the timer problems are you saying F106 fixed that didn't work with F103?

I posted a couple of days ago that I traded emails with tech@dish and they told me to call 1-800-333-3474 to set up an exchange. Well, calling that number is worthless... it's just the main Dish sales number. But, they transferred me to customer support which transferred me to technical support. None of them could get past the fact that I'm not a Dish customer and didn't have an "account". They insisted that I had to go through my "retailer" (which was digitalstar.com). This was very frustrating and I did something I rarely do; ultimately I cut her off mid-sentence with a "stop wasting my time" and just hung up.

Well, I got my RA# today from the online chat at dishnetwork.com. I'm shipping my F101 series back Friday morning. The online chat guy seemed to know what to do after one simple explanation of my main problem (timers disappearing or being corrupted on an F101). The whole thing took about 15 minutes, and I didn't get any grief about not already being a customer. He said to just ship the unit itself and proof of purchase back, not the remote, cables, etc. Fortunately I still have the original box and packaging. I was informed that I'll have to pay to ship to them (which will be less than $10, I think).

I've read the recent postings :( about remaining problems, but I've only got 5 days left on my warranty, so I had to do something now that will hopefully improve my situation a bit.

--Gary

Well, I got my RA# today from the online chat at dishnetwork.com. I'm shipping my F101 series back Friday morning. The online chat guy seemed to know what to do after one simple explanation of my main problem (timers disappearing or being corrupted on an F101). The whole thing took about 15 minutes, and I didn't get any grief about not already being a customer. He said to just ship the unit itself and proof of purchase back, not the remote, cables, etc. Fortunately I still have the original box and packaging. I was informed that I'll have to pay to ship to them (which will be less than $10, I think).

I've read the recent postings :( about remaining problems, but I've only got 5 days left on my warranty, so I had to do something now that will hopefully improve my situation a bit.

--Gary

One note to others - it seems that if you press them on it you might get them to pay for shipping also.:cool:

I think I'll just sell mine on Ebay rather than go through that mess (just described). you are subsidizing the cost and availability when you purchase an advertiser's products or services. False. Television advertising boosts sales, which results in higher economy of scale, and drives the Per Unit price DOWN, not up.

dr.dish

If it's 8pm Sunday and you set a recording for next Sunday at 7pm, the recording somehow ends up being for 4:30pm next Sunday.

There must be other conditions to getting the bug you mentioned. I set up a timer with my F103, an hour less than a week ahead. When is the time supposed to be altered?

There must be other conditions to getting the bug you mentioned. I set up a timer with my F103, an hour less than a week ahead. When is the time supposed to be altered?
Did you make it a WEEKLY timer? Mine is only erratic when I set it to reoccur weekly.

What's the procedure you use to get a clock that is accurate enough to change channels at 9:00PM? With my Zinwell in manual mode, the clock is accurate enough if I have manually set it within the last several days. (3 second per day linear drift.) By design, the TR40 (F103) rarely has the correct time! (as much as 9 minutes off)

The CBS clock is accurate. Sometimes the TR40 syncs with the CBS clock and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the time changes when I change channels and sometimes it doesn't.

The Zinwell has worked Ok for 2 weeks. I've lost 2 shows because of NO SIGNAL (rain), but not because of timers. I've missed portions of 5 shows because the clock is wrong in the TR40. Thank goodness for multiple recorders for backup. When your local stations send incorrect time, how do you procedurely handle it? Contacting them is useless. Is there any change to the clock algorithm in F106?

Did you make it a WEEKLY timer? Mine is only erratic when I set it to reoccur weekly.

Ah, thank you. That was the missing condition, weekly. The error showed up on the events page right away, 3.5 hours earlier than I had set it. (F103)

I'd still like to know what was fixed in the F106 that was not yet fixed with F103. They sound like they have the same errors to me.

I havent had the problems with 106 that some of you have, but if someone would be willing to neatly outline the errors with F106 describing in detail what occurs and such, I'd be willing to give Kevin a call and see what can be done to solve the problem and if we have to do another exchange...that is asusming any others who've contacted him in the past havent already done so about this problem.

I can just hear Kevin muttering to himself, "Oh, no - not again".

I don't use my DTVPal full time yet, but it appears to be broken already. I turned it on today and all of the video was black and white. After a while, it started to alternate between B&W and a rainbow of colors, none of which were correct. I unplugged the power cord for a few seconds, and when it came back on, the program guide acquisition screen was in color, and so were the first few seconds of video. But then it went back to black and white, as did the menus. Has a similar problem been reported yet? I didn't plan on contacting Dish to get a firmware updated unit until they fixed all the problems, but that looks like what I'm going to have to do. I also have to wonder how durable these things are going to be in general.

I can just hear Kevin muttering to himself, "Oh, no - not again".

:p

I don't use my DTVPal full time yet, but it appears to be broken already. I turned it on today and all of the video was black and white. After a while, it started to alternate between B&W and a rainbow of colors, none of which were correct. I unplugged the power cord for a few seconds, and when it came back on, the program guide acquisition screen was in color, and so were the first few seconds of video. But then it went back to black and white, as did the menus. Has a similar problem been reported yet? I didn't plan on contacting Dish to get a firmware updated unit until they fixed all the problems, but that looks like what I'm going to have to do. I also have to wonder how durable these things are going to be in general.

A bit of troubleshooting... This could be a bad Cable(s). You didn't mention if you are using A/V Cables or Coaxial Cable for the output to TV. If you can Switch between the two... See if that "fixes" the issue. If you determine that the problem is on BOTH A/V and Cable then there may be a serious hardware problem. If it goes away then you may still have a "hardware" issue OR it could be the cable(s).

Swap out the cables (or with A/V you could switch one of the audio cables to video and see if that is still a problem). You might also check that the contacts are good on the box and cable connectors themselves. I've had cables/contacts that "look" fine but are just slightly out of alignment or dirty and a little cleaning and bending the contacts to make a better connection did the trick. Be sure to check both the PAL AND the TV connections to make sure you aren't missing anything. You might also try the setup on a different TV. That way you rule out any issues with the TV itself.

Just an added note... for the OLD TV that hasn't seen a need for it's A/V jacks... I can envision an instance were the jacks might be a bit dusty. Try blowing them out or vacuuming them and check the contacts are clean and not tarnished or anything.

I don't use my DTVPal full time yet, but it appears to be broken already. I turned it on today and all of the video was black and white. After a while, it started to alternate between B&W and a rainbow of colors, none of which were correct. I unplugged the power cord for a few seconds, and when it came back on, the program guide acquisition screen was in color, and so were the first few seconds of video. But then it went back to black and white, as did the menus....I didn't plan on contacting Dish to get a firmware updated unit until they fixed all the problems, but that looks like what I'm going to have to do.They'll probably suggest you order their service.

I have been using my F100 DtvPal's since the first of July.
Yes I have multiple boxes.
They are connected to an antenna on top of the 2nd story of my home.
I have been experiencing the same problems as mentioned in this forum.
The heat issue is more of a problem with one particular box.

I have started a new thread about signal lock problems.

www avsforum com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14747801#post14747801

You know where the dots go.

I cant remember...does the DTVPal only lock into the CBS data once or twice a day?

I'm asking because I noticed my DTVPal coming on while not in a timer event, which I assumed was for maintenance, and like it does sometimes it just stayed on. So i switched over to see what it was doing, which was nothing, but I noticed the time was off by an hour.

So I checked one of my other CECBs and its time on CBS was off by an hour as well, meaning the time being one hour off was initially CBS' fault. I say initially, because 10 minutes or so later, I noticed on my other CECB that the time was fixed...so I tuned to the CBS station on the Pal...and the time didnt change, it was still one hour behind. I tried working with it, turning it off and on, changing channels then back to CBS, and finally I got tired of messing with it and just turned it off.

But I couldnt get it to pick up the correct time for CBS. Hopefully the next time it does a guide download it will fix itself...but thats annoying that it wont grab the new data that was obviously being sent by CBS.

Speaking of guide data...the times on the guide were all off by an hour as well. It was showing the program that was currently on, but it the time it was displaying that it was being shown was an hour behind. Jay Leno is on from 11:35-12:35 here in pittsburgh, but it was saying (in the description) that the show was on from 10:35-11:35. Very strange.

Could it be that the guide date it got was from the Central Time zone and not the Eastern one? I've never seen this before.

I cant remember...does the DTVPal only lock into the CBS data once or twice a day?

I'm asking because I noticed my DTVPal coming on while not in a timer event, which I assumed was for maintenance, and like it does sometimes it just stayed on. So i switched over to see what it was doing, which was nothing, but I noticed the time was off by an hour.

So I checked one of my other CECBs and its time on CBS was off by an hour as well, meaning the time being one hour off was initially CBS' fault. I say initially, because 10 minutes or so later, I noticed on my other CECB that the time was fixed...so I tuned to the CBS station on the Pal...and the time didnt change, it was still one hour behind. I tried working with it, turning it off and on, changing channels then back to CBS, and finally I got tired of messing with it and just turned it off.

But I couldnt get it to pick up the correct time for CBS. Hopefully the next time it does a guide download it will fix itself...but thats annoying that it wont grab the new data that was obviously being sent by CBS.

Speaking of guide data...the times on the guide were all off by an hour as well. It was showing the program that was currently on, but it the time it was displaying that it was being shown was an hour behind. Jay Leno is on from 11:35-12:35 here in pittsburgh, but it was saying (in the description) that the show was on from 10:35-11:35. Very strange.

Could it be that the guide date it got was from the Central Time zone and not the Eastern one? I've never seen this before.
I would have certainly expected the DTVpal to get fresh CBS time(if digital TVGOS has been detected) every time you tuned to CBS from another station, but I don't think DISH has made the clock update rules public.

The times in the PSIP data, which is what the DTVpal uses to populate the Guide, are UTC(Coordinated Universal Time)/GMT. The receiving unit has to apply the correction for the time zone it is in, and whether DST is active.
This is especially useful if the TV station is in one time zone, and you are in a different one. As long as the receiving unit knows the local time zone and DST status, it should be able to convert the program information and the time information from the transmitting station to your local time.
Are you sure the DTVpal Time Zone is set correctly?
Is the setting for whether your area uses DST set correcly?
The other thing that could cause a problem is if the station is sending incorrect information as to whether it is currently DST. This could cause inconsistent time reports, since some receivers may use their own tables for when DST is active(probably not a good idea since congress can change that when the spirit moves them), and others may use the information provided by the station(should be OK as long as the transmitter keeps that information accurate). Hopefully, you would never have the situation where the transmitter site and receiver site use different dates for DST.

I just thought of something. If the Station DST status was wrong when the guide data was collected, and the DTVpal converts to local time when it first reads the data(Personally, I would keep the local tables in UTC and make the adjustment when displaying), the guide info would be wrong until data was collected with the correct DST status.

One note to others - it seems that if you press them on it you might get them to pay for shipping also.:cool:

Yes, that's quite likely true, and I didn't press. Shipping (USPS Priority) was $6.80. They pay shipping back to me in any case.

--Gary

I turned it on today and all of the video was black and white. After a while, it started to alternate between B&W and a rainbow of colors, none of which were correct. I unplugged the power cord for a few seconds, and when it came back on, the program guide acquisition screen was in color, and so were the first few seconds of video. But then it went back to black and white, as did the menus. Has a similar problem been reported yet?

I have seen this on a tape made after the TR40 (F103/ID16475163XX) changed channels. Since I didn't view the tape until three days after it was made, I had no way to check if it was the signal breaking up as broadcast by using a different CECB. The problem cleared on its own after a couple of minutes. It did it a second time about 15 minutes into the program, but again cleared in a few minutes and didn't do it again. There was also some pixelation just as it returned from B&W to color.

I'm beginning to think these kind of problems are due to the manufacturers trying to get as much out of the boxes (all CECB's) as possible, instead of setting an operational level that doesn't cause the boxes to freeze, loose color, or reset. These issues are cropping up, because the actual operating environments are so unpredictable.

Then again, everyone would be complaining about why the CECB's don't work beyond 40 miles of the transmitters. :)

I have seen this on a tape made after the TR40 (F103/ID1647516309) changed channels. Since I didn't view the tape until three days after it was made, I had no way to check if it was the signal breaking up as broadcast by using a different CECB. The problem cleared on its own after a couple of minutes. It did it a second time about 15 minutes into the program, but again cleared in a few minutes and didn't do it again. There was also some pixelation just as it returned from B&W to color.

I left my Pal unplugged overnight, and tried it again this morning. It's now working properly. I'll keep it on all day and see if the problem comes back.

I left my Pal unplugged overnight, and tried it again this morning. It's now working properly. I'll keep it on all day and see if the problem comes back.

Someone suggested seeing the same issue... which might suggest a box problem... but did you try swapping cables?

I havent had the problems with 106 that some of you have, but if someone would be willing to neatly outline the errors with F106 describing in detail what occurs and such, I'd be willing to give Kevin a call and see what can be done to solve the problem and if we have to do another exchange...that is asusming any others who've contacted him in the past havent already done so about this problem.


Hello,

Which model has F106? I will order directly from DishNetwork.

So the timer ISSUE is "99 % " solved by F106.

Thanks,
mma

There must be other conditions to getting the bug you mentioned. I set up a timer with my F103, an hour less than a week ahead. When is the time supposed to be altered?

heres what happens with my TR40 (F103) >

i had a WEEKLY SATURDAY 7pm event set...which had worked properly...
so i added a WEEKLY SUNDAY 7 pm timer event....

no conflicts BUT WHEN I CHECKED THE FIRST EVENT it had been changed to 3;30 pm for some crazy reason...i EDITED it back to 7 pm but it wont change...it stays as 3;30 pm!

so i DELETED both the SATURDAY and SUNDAY events and then re-created the SATURDAY 7PM event but it still saves it as 3;30, not 7 pm! i deleted/re-created only the SATURDAY event a couple of times but i cant get it back to 7 pm....very strange!

i'm not looking forward to explaining this mess to DN.....

Which model has F106? I will order directly from DishNetwork.


You can't tell for sure other than trying to get the newest unit. Getting the unit from Dish would be the best way to ensure of that.

Which model has F106? I will order directly from DishNetwork.Has anyone gotten F106 on anything other than a DTVPal exchange unit? I don't recall reading anyone saying they got a new unit with anything later than F103.

I've been having pretty good luck with mine, (1 Pal F101 & 2 TR40's F103) until yesterday.
One TR40 I haven't used yet.
The other one wouldn't turn on yesterday, I had to unplug it for a couple of seconds then it worked. After turning it off after an hour of use, it sat for 8 hrs and tried to turn it on again and it wouldn't turn on, I had to unplug it again, then it started working again.
I think I saw here that others have had the same problem, but did it happen twice in a row? And is this a permanent problem? Or does it do it every so often?

I haven't had any problems with timers, the channels here are all within 5 mins, the major networks are within a min except for FOX right now is 4 mins fast.

I have 3 RCA 800B1, and turned one on tonight and there was sound, but no pic, turned it off then back on and it worked fine. I've heard of problems of other brands also, could it be that they all have and will have problems or little quirks?

I haven't noticed any PQ difference between any of these units I have.

I searched the thread but didn't find any definative info on the Pal/TR 40 power connector.

Has anybody found an equivalent or is it totally proprietary?
I guess you could buy a new power cable assy & cut off the plug but probably pricey solution. maybe 2 Tr40 with one as a spare?

Would like to have capability to run from 12v with 5 v adapter.

Incidently I drilled holes in the top, bottom & sides and added higher "feet" and it runs just slightly over ambient per feel. Significantly cooler than original configuration.

I searched the thread but didn't find any definative info on the Pal/TR 40 power connector.

Has anybody found an equivalent or is it totally proprietary?
I guess you could buy a new power cable assy & cut off the plug but probably pricey solution. maybe 2 Tr40 with one as a spare?

Would like to have capability to run from 12v with 5 v adapter.



easiest solution is to chop the cord you have. put a power plug of your choice on the converter plug end of the TR40 cord. Put a mating power jack on the wall side of the TR40 power cord. Put an identical mating power jack on a cord from your 12V with 5V adapter. Then you can feed the TR40 from either.

With my Zinwell in manual mode, the clock is accurate enough if I have manually set it within the last several days. (2 second per day linear drift.)

By design, the TR40 rarely has the correct time! (as much as 9 minutes off) The CBS clock is accurate. Sometimes the TR40 syncs with the CBS clock and sometimes it doesn't. What if we don't have a CBS station? Mine is moving from UHF to VHF-6, beyond my antenna's ability to "see" it, so I will effectively lose CBS. How accurate is the DTVpal's clock then?

What if we don't have a CBS station? Mine is moving from UHF to VHF-6, beyond my antenna's ability to "see" it, so I will effectively lose CBS. How accurate is the DTVpal's clock then?

why will you lose the cbs station? just cuz it's vhf? many good uhf antennas will pick up some in the VHF part of the spectrum

many good uhf antennas will pick up some in the VHF[-HI] part of the spectrum Fixed. CBS channel 6 is not in the VHF-hi spectrum, so my CM4228 will not receive it. Goodbye CBS; goodbye DTVpal's clock.

My parents CBS affliliate in Nashville is staying VHF Lo after the transition...I about fell in the floor last night when I read that. so much for them getting a UHF only antenna.

What if we don't have a CBS station? Mine is moving from UHF to VHF-6, beyond my antenna's ability to "see" it, so I will effectively lose CBS. How accurate is the DTVpal's clock then?

I wouldn't sweat it until they actually make the change and then you can see if the CM4228 will pick it up. My 4228 has picked up analog channel 6 signals from 60+ miles away, so you might get lucky, even though channel 6 is below the range the 4228 is known to be good for.
If you don't get channel 6 after the change, you could always add a small VHF only antenna for minimal $$ and combine it with your 4228. That's my plan, as I am in a similar situation.

The other one wouldn't turn on yesterday, I had to unplug it for a couple of seconds then it worked. After turning it off after an hour of use, it sat for 8 hrs and tried to turn it on again and it wouldn't turn on, I had to unplug it again, then it started working again.
I think I saw here that others have had the same problem, but did it happen twice in a row? And is this a permanent problem? Or does it do it every so often?Mine does that pretty regularly. I'd say at least once every two or three days (not twice in a row, though - just once).

...I haven't had any problems with timers, the channels here are all within 5 mins, the major networks are within a min except for FOX right now is 4 mins fast...


The problem with the "timers" isn't a problem with the clock. That's a separate thing.

The problem with the timers involves the EVENT TIMERS, the ability to set the machine to turn itself on and tune a certain channel at a certain time so's to let a recorder record from the digital channel.

The timer info has been getting scrambled when the box downloads new TV Guide type data from the TV stations. (Wrong channel, wrong time, etc.)

There's also been reported a problem with the boxes not being able to program in a recording correctly if it's a week away on the same day of the week. If it's Sunday at 8pm and you set up a program for next Sunday at 7pm, you could end up having the timer get set for next Sunday at 4:30 in the afternoon.

I'd say these things need to be fixed. It seems software version 106 has fixed the first problem, but the second problem has been spotted in the using of a 106 box.

My parents CBS affliliate in Nashville is staying VHF Lo after the transition...I about fell in the floor last night when I read that. so much for them getting a UHF only antenna.

not necessarily....if you're within 30 or 40 miles of it and they are running at a decent power level theres a good chance it will still work....u never know for sure until u try it....

but i agree, for them to choose VHF lo band seems a mistake....(VHF low band means ch 2 thru 6 for those who aren't familiar with this stuff) ....maybe the FCC isn't giving them a choice? CBS in chicago is on ch 3 and its been a big problem for them, i think....in feb, 2009 they are switching to ch 12, which should be a big improvement for most people....

I've been having pretty good luck with mine, (1 Pal F101 & 2 TR40's F103) until yesterday. One TR40 I haven't used yet.

The other one wouldn't turn on yesterday, I had to unplug it for a couple of seconds then it worked. After turning it off after an hour of use, it sat for 8 hrs and tried to turn it on again and it wouldn't turn on, I had to unplug it again, then it started working again.

I think I saw here that others have had the same problem, but did it happen twice in a row? And is this a permanent problem? Or does it do it every so often?
...........

my TR40 with F103 did that the first day i used it a few weeks ago....and more than once....but it hasnt done it since then....i explained it in detail in a post in the TR40 thread....letting it sit with power on seems to 'fix' it after 15 minutes or so....

call DN and report it and hopefully they will have a fix later and exchange it....wishful thinking, i know....but thats all u can do....

What if we don't have a CBS station? Mine is moving from UHF to VHF-6, beyond my antenna's ability to "see" it, so I will effectively lose CBS. How accurate is the DTVpal's clock then?

it seems to me that maybe the TR40's and DTVPAL's dont have an internal clock?....or at least they seem to use the time from each station as u tune to it...my local NBC is a minute or two slower than most/all the other stations here and i can see the clock time go 'backwards' by a minute or two each time i tune to NBC....and strangely NBC's on-screen clock (in the NBC 'bug' in the screen corner) doesnt agree with my TR40's displayed clock time when its on NBC....their on-screen clock is more or less the same as the other stations clock times....

would it be so hard for these stations to somehow program their PSIP time data to synch with an atomic clock once per hour? Since a lot of these stations use windows, and windows has that ability...one would think the asnwer is yes. it seems that with the way the stations clocks drift, its no better than the way the Pals keep time.

You would think it shouldn't be THAT hard for the stations to keep their PSIP times in sync, but apparently the idea isn't too high on many of their thoughts right now. Even using the SNTP client built into all WIndows versions since Win2K would be an improvement for some of them.

I searched the thread but didn't find any definative info on the Pal/TR 40 power connector.

Has anybody found an equivalent or is it totally proprietary?
I guess you could buy a new power cable assy & cut off the plug but probably pricey solution. maybe 2 Tr40 with one as a spare?

Would like to have capability to run from 12v with 5 v adapter.

Incidently I drilled holes in the top, bottom & sides and added higher "feet" and it runs just slightly over ambient per feel. Significantly cooler than original configuration.
Posted at Satguys (http://www.satelliteguys.us/1491720-post685.html):
Measured power consumption of the DTVPal from external +5 VDC line:
- boot time (30 sec): 500 mA;
- ON/OFF: 670 mA;
- FW update: 710 mA.
And how to replace DC 5 V connector:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=27976&d=1219120795here (http://www.satelliteguys.us/1487234-post667.html).

And regaring DTVPal/TR-40 smart card:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=27977&d=1219120967

Found in Internet some info about the embedded smart card [U602]:
- S20 xxxx xxxx-xx
- DNASP 243
- Rev DshH80

So, guys - that's real Dish smart card !
Perhaps G3 type.

The DTVpal's internal clock is very inaccurate. It's probably just a simple software-based counter, which tends to lose or gain time rapidly.

So what's the latest revision? F107? Does it fix the problem with self-erasing timers? My 4228 has picked up analog channel 6 signals from 60+ miles away, so you might get lucky... I've tried but my 4228 doesn't get any of the low-VHF channels (2,3, or 6). Maybe the redesigned VHF-capable 4228HD will have better performance on those stations? you could always add a small VHF only antenna for minimal $$ and combine it with your 4228. That's my plan, as I am in a similar situation. You mean one of those "tuned" antennas designed just for channel 6? How difficult is it to "marry" them to the 4228?

The DTVpal's internal clock is very inaccurate. It's probably just a simple software-based counter, which tends to lose or gain time rapidly. So what's the latest revision? F107? Does it fix the problem with self-erasing timers?

Does the DTVPal even have an internal clock? I thought it relied on PSIP for time... I'm interested in the performance of the latest revision as well, as I still haven't bought one yet, due to my coupon never arriving.

I've tried but my 4228 doesn't get any of the low-VHF channels (2,3, or 6). Maybe the redesigned VHF-capable 4228HD will have better performance on those stations?

Who knows, hopefully you will be able to read some reviews are connect with someone here who has one to see what it's capabilities are before you reach decision time. The new 4228 has a 49" wide reflector, which in theory may allow it to get lower VHF better, but it's still designed for UHF.

You mean one of those "tuned" antennas designed just for channel 6? How difficult is it to "marry" them to the 4228?

I wasn't thinking that, I was just thinking a small VHF only antenna, not tuned to a specific channel. As for joining them, Channel Master makes a product called "jointenna" (or something like that).

Does the DTVPal even have an internal clock? I thought it relied on PSIP for time... Yes. It remembers the time even if you disconnect your antenna (thereby removing the PSIP). However it's very inaccurate and quickly drifts. The new 4228 has a 49" wide reflector, which in theory may allow it to get lower VHF better, but it's still designed for UHF. No. It was actually designed for VHF 7-13 and UHF 14-69 (unlike the previous UHF-only model). Hopefully its wider stance will allow it to get channel 6, even though 6 is located ~100 megahertz below the 4228HD's design limits. As for joining them, Channel Master makes a product called "jointenna" (or something like that). Thanks. I'll check it out. For me rabbit ears will not work, but a tuned-antenna specific to VHF-6 should do the job.

I recommend chat with Dr Dish (I think if the customer service ID in the chat includes "DrD", that's the right department. Even though they may not be familiar with the procedure, if you walk them through the need to create the account and tell them about the timer corruption problem, they'll set up the RA# and you can save a verbatim record of the chat in case you need it later. Worked for me (same situation re warranty and 3rd party purchase).

You may want to wait a day to see if they email you a shipping label.

John

I realize this is from last week (been away from the discussion for a while). I have worked up the patience to try again since I'm approaching the 90 day mark. Where is the live chat link? I only see the email tech@echostar address from the support section of the DTVpal website (www dtvpal com).

Thanks

I realize this is from last week (been away from the discussion for a while). I have worked up the patience to try again since I'm approaching the 90 day mark. Where is the live chat link? I only see the email tech@echostar address from the support section of the DTVpal website (www dtvpal com).

Thanks


Try this link. I think it's what you're looking for.

http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/content/tech/techchatadvcustformrf23.shtml

Try this link. I think it's what you're looking for.

http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/content/tech/techchatadvcustformrf23.shtml

Thanks... either I got lucky, or they're getting nicer, although the initial response gave me some pause (bold below - my add)

Please wait while we find a representative to assist you...
You have been connected to (05-03) Charlene D.
(05-03) Charlene D: Thank you for choosing Dish Network the leader in DVR and HD. I will be happy to assist you today. Please give me 2-3 minutes to access your account and review the information you have already provided.
(05-03) Charlene D: I am sorry but you have reached Dishnetwork.com and you will need to access dishtv.com. We do not provide any service outside of the United States. Please end this chat session and contact the correct company for assistance with this. Thank you for contacting Dish Network Live Chat, have a great day!
(05-03) Charlene D: I’m sorry to here that you are having an issue. In order to resolve this issue, I will need to transfer you to our technical support department.
For future reference, you can always find troubleshooting for technical issues on our website, www.tech.dishnetwork.com.
Please standby while we find the next available representative to resolve this issue for you.
Thank you for your patience and have a nice day.
(05-03) Charlene D has left the session.
Please wait while we find an agent from the (24) CB Dr Dish department to assist you.
You have been connected to (24DrDcb) John Kn.
(24DrDcb) John Kn: Thank you for choosing Dish Network the leader in DVR and HD. I will be happy to assist you today. Please give me 2-3 minutes to access your account and review the information you have already provided.
(24DrDcb) John Kn: There's a few potential causes here
(24DrDcb) John Kn: Are the timers disappearing completely?
Andrew Shelden: I have had that occur a couple of times
(24DrDcb) John Kn: What are the problems you're citing other than that?
Andrew Shelden: some times the event timers appear to start 20 minutes late
Andrew Shelden: I have also had one timer stop early..it appears that the DTVPal unit turned off in the middle of one event
(24DrDcb) John Kn: Alright, it appears we will need to replace it, please confirm your address
Andrew Shelden: [address]
Andrew Shelden: I actually have 2 units
Andrew Shelden: both have the same software revisions (F101TCGH-N)
(24DrDcb) John Kn: You're now saying you have the problem on two separate units?
Andrew Shelden: yes
Andrew Shelden: again... these issues appear to have been well documented in a couple of on-line forums...
Andrew Shelden: the one where I have found most of my information is www.avforums.com
(24DrDcb) John Kn: Ok, I will send two, please bear with me 3-4 minutes
Andrew Shelden: ok - thanks
(24DrDcb) John Kn has left the session.
Your agent is experiencing technical difficulties. Please stand by while we re-establish contact or find a new agent...
All agents are currently busy. Please stand by.
Please wait while we find an agent from the (24) CB Dr Dish department to assist you.
You have been connected to (24DrDcb) Mark W.
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Thank you for chatting with Tier 2 Technical Support. This is Mark. opid dhb. I'll be glad to assist you. Please give me a minute to look over the information you have given me.
Andrew Shelden: Mark - I don't know what happened - I was working with John Kn...
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Yes I will be happy to assist you, please give me a few minutes to finish reading the notes
Andrew Shelden: ok
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Okay I see an RA already setup for your DTVPals, the chat must have dropped before he was able to tell you.
(24DrDcb) Mark W: This will be a replacement with shipping labels to return those to us.
Andrew Shelden: great...is there any date by which they need to be returned?
Andrew Shelden: I would prefer to return one at a time
(24DrDcb) Mark W: We like them back in around 10 days or so.
(24DrDcb) Mark W: That is okay
Andrew Shelden: since I tend to be slow about getting around to my errands...is there an "expiration" on the RMA that I need to be careful of (believe me I'm really bad :-)
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Not really,
Andrew Shelden: ok - thanks
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Can I help you with anything else?
Andrew Shelden: nope, I appreciate the support (this was much more helpful than when I called a month ago)

I think this had been mentioned before...but my F106 pal cut off right in the middle of Heroes tonight, and I'm not a happy camper.

I have the timers set up to do King of the Hill 5:25-6:05, Terminator TSCC 7:55-9:00, and Heroes 9:00-10:05. I hadnt planned on being home for Heroes, but fortunately I was and could watch it live, otherwise I would be even angrier that the last half was gone.

So as to not waste power, my inactivity timer is set for 4 hours. Short term, upping this to 5 hours could keep this from happening again, but should I really have to waste more of my electricity just because they didnt design the software properly, as on days when all I'm gonna record is King of the Hill the thing will be on until 10:25? I dont care if it costs me less than a penny per month...that should be my decision to make whether it stays on or not.

I will definately be calling Kevin Hutchison sometime tomorrow. The other issue with F106 is that it alters weekly timers (set within an hour past the program to be recorded) to 2.5 hours earlier than the set time? is that correct? does that happen after a download of the program guide...or is the change immediate?

has anyone opened the box and found the software to be hard wired or flashed? If it's flashed then we should be able to flash our own. Dish should start adding this feature to all the boxes right away, it would make more sense than returning them multiple times.

every email to dish starts this way "Thank you for your email. We understand these situations can be frustrating and apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused" my guess it's auto added to every email.

I think this had been mentioned before...but my F106 pal cut off right in the middle of Heroes tonight, and I'm not a happy camper.

I have the timers set up to do King of the Hill 5:25-6:05, Terminator TSCC 7:55-9:00, and Heroes 9:00-10:05. I hadnt planned on being home for Heroes, but fortunately I was and could watch it live, otherwise I would be even angrier that the last half was gone.

So as to not waste power, my inactivity timer is set for 4 hours. Short term, upping this to 5 hours could keep this from happening again, but should I really have to waste more of my electricity just because they didnt design the software properly, as on days when all I'm gonna record is King of the Hill the thing will be on until 10:25? I dont care if it costs me less than a penny per month...that should be my decision to make whether it stays on or not.

I will definately be calling Kevin Hutchison sometime tomorrow. The other issue with F106 is that it alters weekly timers (set within an hour past the program to be recorded) to 2.5 hours earlier than the set time? is that correct? does that happen after a download of the program guide...or is the change immediate?

I realize that I am about the only one that is concerned about the left shift and the VBI problems, but would you mind asking him if those are even on the list of "known issues?"
Thanks very much.

DISH Network Online Chat (http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/content/tech/techchatadvcustformrf23.shtml) You will get transferred to Tier 2 Technical Support

I entered the following description of my problem in the describe the technical issue field:
Two DTVPals with F101TCGH-N software missing timers or triggering them wrong.

By stating that, I didn't have to get into any further detail as you can see from the chat below. I did order my DTVPals directly from DISH, so I had an account number to submit for the online chat. The process took around five minutes.


(24DrDcb) Mark W: Thank you for chatting with Tier 2 Technical Support. This is Mark. opid dhb. I'll be glad to assist you. Please give me a minute to look over the information you have given me.
(24DrDcb) Mark W: I am sorry that you are having that issue, I will be happy to assist you.
(24DrDcb) Mark W: We do need to get you Pals replaced,

Amiga: Well, I am confused about one thing...

(24DrDcb) Mark W: go ahead

Amiga: I've read that all the issues/problems with the DTVPals are still not resolved with the 106 software. I am happy to exchange them at a later date, but I am worried about the 90 day warranty.

(24DrDcb) Mark W: I cannot not advise as to how long some of the issues may need to be completed
(24DrDcb) Mark W: the timers do seem to be resolved now though
(24DrDcb) Mark W: May I get your shipping address?

Amiga: I understand that, but is DISH Network going to exchange these converters after our 90 day warranties?

(24DrDcb) Mark W: And I cannot extend the warranty

Amiga: 9601 S MERIDIAN BLVD, ENGLEWOOD CO 80112-5905 Little joke, this is not my address, google it!

(24DrDcb) Mark W: I do not know if any decision had been made on that
(24DrDcb) Mark W: just a mnute please

Amiga: Are prepaid return shipping labels going to be included?

(24DrDcb) Mark W: Just a minute please

Amiga: Sure

(24DrDcb) Mark W: Yes there should be prepaid return labels
(24DrDcb) Mark W: When you receive your equipment please read the instructional letter first. If you do not ship us the malfunctioning equipment within ten days after you receive the replacement unit, your DISH Network account will be charged. Some equipment is excluded and need not be returned. Follow the instructions enclosed. If your equipment is returned and our testing department determines that there is customer damage, the warranty will be void. Please return only the malfunctioning equipment. Please write your RA number on the outside of the box. We are shipping your equipment by UPS BLUE 2ND DAY and you should receive it in 2 days.

Amiga: Great, thank you.

(24DrDcb) Mark W: Your Ra numbers are 29502XXX and 29502XXX
(24DrDcb) Mark W: Can I help you with anything else?

Amiga: No, that will be it.

(24DrDcb) Mark W: Have I handled everything to your satisfaction?

Amiga: Yes

(24DrDcb) Mark W: Thank you for being so co-operative throughout the chat session and also for providing me an opportunity to assist you today.


Well, I guess we had all better swap these boxes out soon. Use Date Calculator (http://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadd.html) to see if you are within your 90 days. I did this on the 91st day of my order, mind you, not the day the converters hit my door.

...The other issue with F106 is that it alters weekly timers (set within an hour past the program to be recorded) to 2.5 hours earlier than the set time? is that correct? does that happen after a download of the program guide...or is the change immediate?

3.5 hours earlier, and the change can be seen right away -- as soon as you set the timer you can view the time shift in the event timer list.

Please wait while we find a representative to assist you. In order to ensure we are providing you with the highest level of customer satisfaction, this conversation will be recorded.
You have been connected to (24DrDcb) Jerry D.
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: Thank you for choosing Dish Network the leader in DVR and HD. I will be happy to assist you today. Please give me 2-3 minutes to access your account and review the information you have already provided.
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: How may I assist you today?
Don: There are so many problems with these DTVPAL's, I would like to exchange them for ones with newer software.
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: I am sorry, but we haven't launched any dtvpals with any newer software yet.
Don: Not so, if you look at the AVS forum you will see F106 is the latest version.
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: But the issues that you have listed here are issues we are still having with the dtvpals, so exchanging will not resolve these issues.
Don: What do I do if the Warranty expires while I am waiting for the new software?
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: If it is a known issue like the ones that we are aware of, when those issues are corrected, there will be a process in place to take care of purchasers of that equipment.
Don Harris: Thank you, can you tell me how I can save or copy this chat for my future reference.
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: Copy and paste onto a word document would be the best way.
Don : Thank you
(24DrDcb) Jerry D: You're very welcome.

Some of us with warranty expiration dates coming up can sleep a wee bit better. Perhaps other forum members will question the Chat support about the warranty and see if we can get a consensus of opinion, as you all know not all tech representatives respond with the same answers.

Just got off the phone with Kevin and he's gonna look into the two issues we've seen with F106. Unfortunately, the inactivity timer issue may not be resolvable, in that from what he said, it's supposed to take priority over timed events.

We talked about disabling or extending the inactivity timer and as I said, to me that seems a bit counterproductive. I even told Kevin that turning off the IT kind of defeats the purpose of unattended recording. I should hear back from him in a few hours though, if not tomorrow morning sometime.

He dropped a little news about the TR-50 that has got me interested. Supposedly, it has a USB port as well as a wireless card so that information can be uploaded or downloaded. Aside from making it easier to transfer material to ones PC, if users do have any issues with software on it like they are with the Pal, they can put a patch up on the web and users can download it without having to do any of this exchange stuff. Sounds encouraging.

nwiser - I quoted your TR50 info to the TR-50 thread. Interesting info, thanks!

Unfortunately, the inactivity timer issue may not be resolvable, in that from what he said, it's supposed to take priority over timed events.That's one of the dumbest statements from Dish Network I've heard yet. Why on earth would you make it operate like that? It's clearly an attempt to avoid another round of exchanges.

Is it wrong that I don't believe the names of these chat reps are really Charlene, John, Mark and Jerry?

OK. I give up. I had developed a contact at Dish (a TSR supervisor) through all of this fiasco and I bit the bullet to day and called him (he was actually at his desk!) to find out anything I could.

Long story short...he said the only active firmware versions were F101,102 and 103, he claimed to know nothing of the F106, but he assured me that my replacements would have the newest version.

FYI...the left shift is NOT on the list of known issues (and likely will never be) and the VBI issue is considered a broadcaster issue by Dish and will likely not be addressed in any future updates. Also, his information was that the timer issues were fixed.

Maybe his information is totally wrong as we all know that can and does happen with Dish, but I just do not care anymore...this whole thing has come to an end for me...I feel Dish Network will NEVER make this box 100% right according to most of the forum members expectations--at least not to mine.

I will take the replacements I am getting and call it a day...Dish wins:(

Is it wrong that I don't believe the names of these chat reps are really Charlene, John, Mark and Jerry?

I talked to a DISH CSR today at some overseas call center who said her name was "Paris" (sure it was ;) ). After spending 10 minutes telling her my problems (with timers) she transfered me to tier one tech support in the U.S. That CSR said that she did not have any notes on timer problems on the DTVPal and insisted that I did not have any DTVPals because she could not find them on my account (I had them added to my account in July). After going round and round with this (clearly) untrained person I INSISTED that she transfer me to tier two support. That person (Mary in the U.S.) did find them on my account and did say that my problem was a "known issue". She said that she will send out the return labels to get them replaced. Overall, I spent 55 minutes (a lot of that time on hold while the CSR looked for solutions in their DTVPal database) and, hopefully, the replacements will be better than the ones I have that miss timers almost daily.

I did the online chat thing today and got the following from the CSR:

(24DrDcb) Timothy D: how long have you had the Dtv pals?

(He did ask how long I have had them, as that is when I received them. But the packingslip from cheap digital converters says, Date Ordered: Thursday 26 June, 2008)

Jennifer: let me check for you
(24DrDcb) Timothy D: ok
Jennifer: 07/10/2008

(24DrDcb) Timothy D: you are just in the 90 day warranty of the Dtv pals, I can create a exchange for them but a proof of purchase will need to be provided when they are sent in for exchange,

(24DrDcb) Timothy D: you will be just sending the units themselves with the proof of purchase.

Jennifer: Are prepaid return shipping labels going to be included?

(24DrDcb) Timothy D: this is a post receipt exchange, you send us the dtv pal then we send one back to you, you decide on how you want to ship them to use & we will use the same process of shipping it back to you

(24DrDcb) Timothy D: I have checked with two of my supervisor's & they say we do not send replacement Dtv pals out first & we do not provide the shipping of the Dtv pals to use, as I mentioned before, we do pay for the shipping of the Dtv pal to you as the same method you used to ship it to us.

Jennifer: And hopefully will have the F106 software
(24DrDcb) Timothy D: I can not answer what software they will be sent out with
Jennifer: Well the F101 boxes have faulty software
(24DrDcb) Timothy D: I understand that but I do not have the information to answer your question, I am sorry
Jennifer: If I have problems with them will there be a possible replacement ?
(24DrDcb) Timothy D: it would be possible depending on the issue
Jennifer: If I had the same problems
(24DrDcb) Timothy D: yes

As you can see, that was NOT really the outcome I was hoping for. I really think they should all get on the same page with the returns and how some CSR's issue a return label first, and others tell you to send the convertors in first for exchange.

I just purchased a TR-40 with the serial number R16475374XX. How do I know what software version I have? Thanks for your help.

I just purchased a TR-40 with the serial number R16475374XX. How do I know what software version I have? Thanks for your help.

Push the "System Info" button on the remote control and it will come up on screen.

when they said send a mailing label did they mean email or snail mail?

Rock On...Survivors. You folks march by your own drummer and more should too.

Yea those people are very independent. But why do they cry so much about losing the ability to mooch OTA (i.e. not buying any products that pay for their "free" shows with advertising)?:rolleyes:

To stay on topic, can I buy one of these units with F106 and depend on it to record with my analog tuner DVR/DVDR (even if it's only set on a daily basis)? Does the TVGOS actually work?

I'm controlling an Insignia DTA with a IR Blaster right now and everything is great. But come Feb 09, I won't be getting analog TVGOS and I want something I can program. I can wait it out, hopefully they'll be something better out by then.

when they said send a mailing label did they mean email or snail mail?

I was told that I will receive them by mail and boxes to return them in (I have several to return that I purchased for me and two of my neighbors). We all bought them to use with the timer feature which is not working as advertised.

I asked about upgrading them (I offered to pay the difference in price) to the DTVPal Plus but, after checking, the CSR said that was not possible.

I have the timers set up to do King of the Hill 5:25-6:05, Terminator TSCC 7:55-9:00, and Heroes 9:00-10:05...... the last half was gone. So as to not waste power, my inactivity timer was set for 4 hours [5:25 to 9:25]. Short term: upping this to 5 hours could keep this from happening again, but should I really have to waste more of my electricity just because they didnt design the software properly.... Leaving the box on for an extra hour is only 1/20th of a penny. Even if you left the box run all night, it's still only 1/2 a penny.

I can't believe you're so incensed about such a trivially-small amount of money. I leave my box turned-on all the time - 35 cents per month. I don't think it's any big deal. (I waste more money buying a candy bar that I should not eat.)

...why do they cry so much about losing the ability to mooch OTA (i.e. not buying any products that pay for their "free" shows with advertising)?:rolleyes:...

Television in the States has always been available over the air for free. If you choose to buy an advertised product or not is besides the point. Nobody is mooching. That's just the way TV is in the States.

If you're only familiar with having to pay for TV by way of cable or satellite, you have my sympathies. You've apparently come along late in the game and have limited experience in this matter.

TV in the states has always been available over the air for free, and people who get their TV this way aren't moochers. They're viewers. There is no other point of view, because that's how it is and how it's always been.

Leaving the box on for an extra hour is only 1/20th of a penny. Even if you left the box run all night, it's still only 1/2 a penny.

I can't believe you're so incensed about such a trivially-small amount of money. I leave my box turned-on all the time - 35 cents per month. I don't think it's any big deal. (I waste more money buying a candy bar that I should not eat.)



Mmmm...

Candy....

Peanut butter cups in the kitchen cabinet.....

*ahem*

Ummm...I can sort of see the point about not wanting to leave it on all the time, but for a slightly different reason. We know the boxes can get hot. I'm not too crazy about having my TV tuner burn my place down while I'm out.

I'm not even too crazy about the idea of a fire starting while I'm there, either.

(Let me clarify that I still have been tending to leave the thing on all the time. Yeah, I know. I'm asking for trouble and obviously know better.)

Is it wrong that I don't believe the names of these chat reps are really Charlene, John, Mark and Jerry?

Is it wrong that I don't believe YOUR real name is "Ziggy"? :p

Television in the States has always been available over the air for free. If you choose to buy an advertised product or not is besides the point. Nobody is mooching. That's just the way TV is in the States.

If you're only familiar with having to pay for TV by way of cable or satellite, you have my sympathies. You've apparently come along late in the game and have limited experience in this matter.

TV in the states has always been available over the air for free, and people who get their TV this way aren't moochers. They're viewers. There is no other point of view, because that's how it is and how it's always been.

You are far off base. I don't have any pay tv service, and haven't since I left my parents home 30 years ago. I rather pay $30 a month for high speed internet. But I'm not complaining about missing any stations because of the analog to digital switch. I went out and bought a rotary roof top antenna and HDTV's to be ready for the future. My only problem is using a DVR/DVDR that has analog TVGOS. I'm not whining about it though, and I'll find a way around it.

I see plenty of complaints about the transision on the CECB forums. Nothing in life is free. All this whining about losing things that you never paid for in the first place is pretty sad.

Yea those people are very independent. But why do they cry so much about losing the ability to mooch OTA (i.e. not buying any products that pay for their "free" shows with advertising)?:rolleyes:


If you live in England you have to pay a TV tax but you get commercial free television. In the states OTA is free but has commercials. But you can pay for cable or satellite and you still get commercials.

So if you feel like a mooch then you better buy some of the stuff you see on TV like this (http://www.summerseve.com/Douche.asp). And don't forget to ask your doctor about Cialis, Viagra, Levitra or whatever they are pushing. :rolleyes:

One more thing. If so see a Ameritrade commercial on TV. You might want to hold off buying what they are selling for a while. :eek:

But I'm not complaining about missing any stations because of the analog to digital switch. I went out and bought a rotary roof top antenna and HDTV's to be ready for the future. My only problem is using a DVR/DVDR that has analog TVGOS. I'm not whining about it though, and I'll find a way around it.

I see plenty of complaints about the transision on the CECB forums. Nothing in life is free. All this whining about losing things that you never paid for in the first place is pretty sad.
Some people around here just don't get that....

TV in the states has always been available over the air for free, and people who get their TV this way aren't moochers. They're viewers. There is no other point of view, because that's how it is and how it's always been.

You must have a very short memory, or you don't mind tainting your credibility.

Just a few days ago you were obviously made aware of other points of view on this subject when you read and replied to posts and answered
my reply to your PM. I also supplied you with a link that successfully disputed your point of view. Maybe you didn't have time to read it.

There are other points of view. TV in the states has always been paid for by the masses.
Other than PBS, OTA TV and radio is not a gift or charity, it is a for profit business.
The people's money flows into business's advertising budgets and then to the ad producers, content providers and broadcasters.
Hidden costs doesn't equal free. And of course PBS is obviously pay TV. Maybe you don't contribute and consider it free, but others do pay.

The proof is in following the money trail. The fact is, money flow starts when it comes out of the public's pockets and ends up paying for the broadcasters being able to provide TV and radio.

The difference between OTA TV and cable/satellite is, with pay TV you are still paying a hidden cost and the extra cost for content and delivery.
For example, right now I'm enjoying watching MLB playoffs on pay TV, not being broadcast on OTA TV.

When you buy a new car, are you not paying for the worker's wages, health care insurance, pension and the automaker's advertising budget?

I realize that many people in this forum may have never bought a new car. That was just an easy to understand example of hidden costs.


My market has virtually no subchannels, and what's there is basically worthless in my opinion ...

Free TV - You get what you pay for?

I'm not whining about it though..Then you probably don't belong here.

If you don't mind spending the money, and know that you have to give something to really get something nowadays (;)), there's the TR-50 which is supposed to be out by Christmas.

Then you won't have to deal with IR blasters, or buggy external tuners at all.

I'd still keep your older HDD recorders around though, because the TR-50 will undoubtedly not be anywhere equal to the quality of those things (if you're going by the Pal/TR-40 as an example).

For example, right now I'm enjoying watching MLB playoffs on pay TV, not being broadcast on OTA TV.Here we get TBS with Comcast limited lifeline basic, so it's really not that bad a deal.

I asked about upgrading them (I offered to pay the difference in price) to the DTVPal Plus but, after checking, the CSR said that was not possible.

at first glance that seems somewhat silly on their part. "no, we dont want your money"

then again maybe not, as Kevin told me the other day that they're not really making money on the CECBs. They might make some on the TR-50...but not the DTVPal, and certainly not the TR-40. So if they took your old DTVPal, it would likely cost them more money in handling it and getting it prepped and out to sell to someone else than it would justto give you two Pals back. I dunno.

I see plenty of complaints about the transision on the CECB forums. Nothing in life is free. All this whining about losing things that you never paid for in the first place is pretty sad.

Such discussion should likely be reserved for the Gvt shortsightedness thread, but since you brought it up, try telling that to the poor people who cant afford new equipment for this transition, much less a few HDTVs like you apparently can. Just because they lost their job, or the two or three jobs they have doesnt pay enough to afford them cable, a nice home theater and such, doesnt mean they should be punished by the transition and forced to enjoy a lesser quality of life than they have been enjoying with their meager income.

It's easy to sit there and thumb ones nose down at the ones having problems when one has little to none of their own.

Such discussion should likely be reserved for the Gvt shortsightedness thread, but since you brought it up, try telling that to the poor people who cant afford new equipment for this transition, much less a few HDTVs like you apparently can. Just because they lost their job, or the two or three jobs they have doesnt pay enough to afford them cable, a nice home theater and such, doesnt mean they should be punished by the transition and forced to enjoy a lesser quality of life than they have been enjoying with their meager income.

It's easy to sit there and thumb ones nose down at the ones having problems when one has little to none of their own.I agree with you both - there are a lot of people which this will hurt - but there is also too much repetitive, unproductive whining around here in general.

I see plenty of complaints about the transision on the CECB forums. Nothing in life is free. All this whining about losing things that you never paid for in the first place is pretty sad.

OTA television is essentially free to the viewer, whether you care to admit it or not. When I watch television, I am not compelled to purchase the products advertised. I am not even compelled to view the commercials. I can take it or leave it as I choose.

On the other hand, I could also make the argument that television is not free because I pay taxes to the government that regulates the airwaves and insures that I am not compelled to pay for the privilege of tuning in. I could also argue that television is not free because it costs time to watch and time has value.

We could make all kinds of silly arguments, but that's what they would be, no matter how much we dress them up as serious discussion.

I've been away for a while. Now I'm trying to find the post that tells the procedure to get a replacement DTVPal?

Thanks in advance. I've been spending time with my son before he goes to Iraq.

You are far off base....

Nah. I was spot on accurate.

...All this whining about losing things that you never paid for in the first place is pretty sad.

Nope. Nobody's been whining about losing something they've never paid for. People are expressing opinions about things related to television, a source of entertainment, and you know what? After the digital changeover, OTA television in the States will STILL be free! And people who watch it STILL won't be moochers! http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/2227/loljo6.gif (http://imageshack.us)

There are other points of view. TV in the states has always been paid for by the masses...


Didn't you and I have an exchange about this the other day? I know it was with someone...

Someone said that there's no free TV, and I pointed out that while you have to pay for cable and satellite, OTA is free. The claim was made that OTA isn't free, because of taxes and commercials, but I then countered, successfully, that those are still there even if you're a cable/satellite customer AND you have a monthly bill to boot.

The only difference is that if you're NOT a cable/satellite customer, but instead view OTA only, you DON'T pay for your television.

THIS is a fact, and thus is the only point of view.

Now, someone might tell you that giraffes are actually Russian spies, but the evidence says otherwise. They might be said to have a "point of view", but I can't quite call it that.

Facts are facts.

Of course not.

They might have initially, but they're losing money on them now due to the first batch having been defective and them having to replace them for free. ;)

That too.

Also, for those that dont read the TR-50 thread, I wanted to make a correction to something I said the other day. The TR-50 will have both USB and Ethernet ports, but no wireless capability, and data transfer via those ports is intended to be one way, to the TR-50. Sorry if I mislead anyone.

For further information, see the TR-50 thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=972197).

...Kevin told me the other day that they're not really making money on the CECBs. They might make some on the TR-50...but not the DTVPal, and certainly not the TR-40...

Of course not.

They might have initially, but they're losing money on them now due to the first batch having been defective and them having to replace them for free. ;)

(Plus there's a big difference between the price of the converter boxes and the rumored $300 sticker they've got planned for the 50. :D )

Just because they lost their job, or the two or three jobs they have doesnt pay enough to afford them cable, a nice home theater and such, doesnt mean they should be punished by the transition and forced to enjoy a lesser quality of life than they have been enjoying with their meager income.



Of course many people who can't afford to pay for tv service also take public transportation to work. Should the government provide them cars so they can travel like the rest of us? After all transportation is a necessity while tv is just a diversion.

And Rammitinski, after all of the problems with the TR-40/DTVPAL, you think the TR-50 will be worth the extra money? Too be honest, I'll believe that there will be a TR-50 when I see it. I almost consider it vaporware right now. It's too bad Gemstar didn't bring out their own DTA box to go with all of the soon to be orphan TVGOS boxes that will be out there.

Almost every recorder out there with TVGOS has a manual clock setting option, and can still have it's timers set manually.

And no - I don't think the TR-50 will be worth $250.00-$300.00 if it uses a PSIP guide instead of TVGOS - even if it doesn't have all the bugs of the Pal.

Even if they do add a manual clock setting option, the PSIP data is woefully inadequate. And just because they're cutting off analog OTA is no guarantee that they're going to put any more effort into maintaining it - there's not necessarily going to be any more incentive than there is now.

It was just a suggestion - at least something to keep an eye on.

has anyone opened the box and found the software to be hard wired or flashed? If it's flashed then we should be able to flash our own. Dish should start adding this feature to all the boxes right away, it would make more sense than returning them multiple times.<....>
I did snapshot of a screen when the box try to find new FW thru the air - look for posts above.
And yes, FW is in flash memory (8 MB) as all your settings and station's info.

Of course many people who can't afford to pay for tv service also take public transportation to work. Should the government provide them cars so they can travel like the rest of us? After all transportation is a necessity while tv is just a diversion.
...
I don't think your analogy applies. I think a closer example would be if the government were to ban the sale of gasoline and only permit the sale of E85 or Hydrogen. Suddenly cars that used to work would be useless without some sort of modification. People would be looking for some sort of relief if that were to happen abruptly.

The Zinwell ZATs run nice-and-cool, and have the same VCR/DVR Timer as the DTVpal. Nothing in life is free. All this whining about losing things that you never paid for in the first place is pretty sad. I like how my 75-year-old mother put it:

- "The air belongs to the People. Just as we have a right to breathe clean air, we have an equal right to use the radio waves to hear music or watch television.

"If these rich corporations are going to abuse the People's airwaves, then they should lose their licenses and give the stations back to the public. Let the stations be run by US, the private citizens."

The Zinwell ZATs run nice-and-cool, and have the same VCR/DVR Timer as the DTVpal. I like how my 75-year-old mother put it:

- "The air belongs to the People. Just as we have a right to breathe clean air, we have an equal right to use the radio waves to hear music or watch television.

"If these rich corporations are going to abuse the People's airwaves, then they should lose their licenses and give the stations back to the public. Let the stations be run by US, the private citizens."

Sure, when the "people" ante up the billions to buy the infrastructure they can have the airwaves. These rich corporations got rich by taking risks and investing tons of money. The higher the risk, the higher the potential reward.

Yea, my mom is 80 and she too is a child of the depression where FDR was a god. I've heard this socialist crap before.

And this whole thing is due to the government wanting the airwaves for other uses. If the "people" want better control of it then throw the bums out of office who decided this.

But this whole thing is getting out of hand. I'll be glad to discuss this at the Gov't Shortsightedness thread.

Socialist? My mom's a republican - the antithesis of socialist. Sure, when the "people" ante up the billions to buy the infrastructure they can have the airwaves. These corporations are only LEASING the airwaves, and just like any other landlord, the People can revoke the lease if its usage is abused.

Same applies to corporations who pollute the air; it they are found to be abusing its usage to the point where the air in a community is unbreathable, the corporation can be blocked by the People (via government agency) from continuing that practice.

Read the Declaration of Independence sometime. The People are the rulers, not the corporations.

the People can revoke the lease if its usage is abused.

ah and there's the rub: you not getting a digital signal =! abuse:cool:

If the "people" want better control of it then throw the bums out of office who decided this.
A very Pollyanna view of our pseudo-democracy. Hard to do when the electronic machines are rigged. ;) But let's get back on topic . . .

ah and there's the rub: you not getting a digital signal =! abuse:cool: Well one of the advantages of being the Landlord is you don't really need a justification to revoke a lease & reclaim your property. The FCC (on behalf of the people) has done this several times. The biggest example is when they flat-out revoked the leases on channels 70 to 83, because it was determined the television stations were not properly using that property, and it could serve a more-important function (analog cellphones in the 80s).

I did snapshot of a screen when the box try to find new FW thru the air - look for posts above.
And yes, FW is in flash memory (8 MB) as all your settings and station's info.

how did you get the dtvpal to do this? does the tr40 also do this?

I was dead set against the tr-40/Pal because of the problems people were having and the lack of buttons on the box. However, as I have just received my coupons and really started looking at the choices, I realized that the echostar is one of the few that has (or at least claims) to have the features I want such as timers.

Here is the $64K, for those of you who already have the box, is it worth it, and would you get another?

Run away from the TR-40crap and the DTVpal!

Buy a Zinwell ZAT instead - the hardware is basically the same, but the software is not broke like it is on the TR40. (For comparison the Zinwell is like Windows XP versus TR40's BrokenVista.)

Buy a Zinwell ZAT instead - the hardware is basically the same, but the software is not broke lie it is on the TR40. (For comparison the Zinwell is like Windows XP versus TR40's BrokenVista.)
And if there were a CECB comparable to Linux, it would really ROCK! ;) Zinwell is the next best thing. I am really liking mine. It WORKS!!

And if there were a CECB comparable to Linux, it would really ROCK! ;) Zinwell is the next best thing. I am really liking mine. It WORKS!!

Thanks for the suggestion. I am checking out the Zat thread.

There could not be a CECB like linux because it would have 10x more features, be way more efficient, cost a lot less and would not be dictated by the government. :)

I just wish the ZAT-970A had been manufactured with the Microtune tuner, like some of their other models, and be more sensitive than my APEX DT502.

There could not be a CECB like linux because it would have 10x more features, be way more efficient, cost a lot less and would not be dictated by the government. :)
That's about it in a nutshell. :cool:

Just got my replacement... exchanged an F101, and got a F106 from the UPS guy a few minutes ago. I put the old box in the mail (USPS priority mail) on Thursday (Sept 25) around noon, received the replacement exactly 1 week later, to the hour.

The carton had a new Pal and a power supply, even though I didn't return the old power supply. Fired everything up and the initial setup went OK. Will report on timer/clock behavior when I have some mileage on it.

--Gary

Socialist? My mom's a republican - the antithesis of socialist.
Read the Declaration of Independence sometime. The People are the rulers, not the corporations.

There are plenty of liberal Republican's. I live in Michigan and the we had a Republican governer in the 70's who was more liberal than his Democractic replacement.

And corporations do have legal rights. Just because the people are rulers doesn't mean they're allowed to be dictators. The constitution sets up majority rule, but prevents a "tyranny of the majority".

There are plenty of liberal Republican's. I live in Michigan and the we had a Republican governer in the 70's who was more liberal than his Democractic replacement.

And corporations do have legal rights. Just because the people are rulers doesn't mean they're allowed to be dictators. The constitution sets up majority rule, but prevents a "tyranny of the majority".And this relates to the topic 'Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter' how?

The timer info has been getting scrambled when the box downloads new TV Guide type data from the TV stations. (Wrong channel, wrong time, etc.)


Is it possible to disable the TV Guide function? I have no use for it since I never watch live TV (only record to my DVDR) and I get my program information online. I don't want it messing up my timers.

Dish will sell you another box so you can disable the TV Guide function. Only cost you $200

:D

Is it possible to disable the TV Guide function? I have no use for it since I never watch live TV (only record to my DVDR) and I get my program information online. If your DVDR has an IR-blaster function to control an external tuner (such as the DTVpal), then use that. The D-to-A TVGOS function is off by default.

Is it possible to disable the TV Guide function? I have no use for it since I never watch live TV (only record to my DVDR) and I get my program information online. I don't want it messing up my timers.

I think what you are referring to is the PSIP-based Dish guide, right? The one that screws with DTVPal timers? In that case, then no, you can't disable it. You can only pray that Dish will finally get the programming right one of these days. :rolleyes:

I think what you are referring to is the PSIP-based Dish guide, right? The one that screws with DTVPal timers? In that case, then no, you can't disable it. You can only pray that Dish will finally get the programming right one of these days. :rolleyes:

Yes Partsman, that is the guide I was referring to. Thank you for letting me know. It's disappointing that there's no way to turn it off. I have until November to use my coupon, so I guess I will just wait for future firmware updates and hope for the best. Or get the Zinwell, but that seems to have issues too.

TheKrell, my DVDR is the Panasonic E80H - no IR blaster and no TV Guide. If my DVDR did have an IR blaster, I wouldn't even consider the TR-40. ;)

What problems does the Zinwell have, that would keep you from purchasing one? It has better Picture Quality and Timers work.

I did snapshot of a screen when the box try to find new FW thru the air - look for posts above.
And yes, FW is in flash memory (8 MB) as all your settings and station's info.

I've checked.

You only have two posts, and neither of them have such a screencapture.

Your other post does have some pix of the innards of the box, apparently from someone else's post.

...It's disappointing that there's no way to turn it off. I have until November to use my coupon, so I guess I will just wait for future firmware updates and hope for the best. Or get the Zinwell, but that seems to have issues too...

A work-around with the DTVPal has been to not shut it off. This means it doesn't do that download of data that can scramble the timers, since it only does that big download when first turned on.

Some have reported the latest version of the DTVPal, with the 106 software, does NOT scramble the timers when the data download takes place.

As for the Zinwell, could you tell me what issues you've heard of?

I've checked.

You only have two posts, and neither of them have such a screencapture.

Your other post does have some pix of the innards of the box, apparently from someone else's post.

I think he was referring to this one: http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=27904&d=1218836539

Yes Partsman, that is the guide I was referring to. Thank you for letting me know. It's disappointing that there's no way to turn it off. I have until November to use my coupon, so I guess I will just wait for future firmware updates and hope for the best. Or get the Zinwell, but that seems to have issues too.

TheKrell, my DVDR is the Panasonic E80H - no IR blaster and no TV Guide. If my DVDR did have an IR blaster, I wouldn't even consider the TR-40. ;)

The guide download corrupting the timers was corrected in F103 which is what the TR40 seems to come with. However, people are still reporting problems with the timers.
I have not played with mine enough to see it, but I believe at least one person reported that the unit detected a non-existen conflict, and altered a timer that had been OK. I think the report was that the person had something along the lines of an every Monday 7PM timer that got altered by setting a Wednesday 7PM timer. Obviously, there should not be any interacting by timer settings along those lines. I am not sure which thread reported this.