I guess I'm missing something here. Have there been any test results published on this unit. I know it looks good on paper, but I mean, people are pre-ordering sight-unseen -- based on what. How do they know this box is going to have adequate tuner performance or no heat problems or no audio problems, etc? Wasn't there just a whole bunch of people who got burned pre-ordering a Maxmedia box? I'm not saying it's the same thing here, but I would be more than a little leery of pre-ordering anything after that.

There's really no way to know what we'll be getting. But having seen what's out there now, and with two expiring coupons in hand, I think I'm gonna takes my chances. And Echostar is a pretty reputable company, how bad could it be?

I also just placed an order (5 minutes ago) with Provantage for 2 DTVpals. The system to process the coupons is up again. Total was $16.35 & will ship in late June/Early July. I mentioned that they haven't changed their web page yet from the TR-40 & the rep said it will be updated in 48 hours. He said I will get an email confirmation on the order.

Thank you AVS forum & members for the wealth of information you provide. :D

Just ordered mine. It was a pretty pleasant experience.

Fingers crossed...

dampier,
Take a look at the last couple of posts on the Echostar thread. Apparently open for business again.

All Website, IVR and E-Services coupon redemption services will be unavailable during scheduled maintenance.

The NTIA does post Planned System Outage for the T.V. Converter Box Coupon Program (https://www.ntiadtv.gov/home.cfm)

The Next scheduled maintenance is:
Sunday, May 18, 2008 from 2 A.M. EDT - 8 A.M. EDT.

I guess I'm missing something here...people are pre-ordering sight-unseen -- based on what. How do they know this box is going to have adequate tuner performance or no heat problems or no audio problems, etc?You are right that there is a lot of unknowns with the DTVPal.

The only thing really known is the MicroTune MT2131 according to MicroTune.
It is also in all the Falcon Digital boxes so you might want to check out the Sansonic thread.
The Gridlink GLT-200 is also FREE like the DTVPal in a what looks like a metal case however minus a EPG and timers.
So far the MicroTune was suppose to have better performance but people are reporting that it doesn't.

I have also been thinking about the TVGuide EPG.
I had a RCA Guide+ T.V. that also had a built in TVGuide EPG on it that would refresh each night over a Cable connection and took several hours, not to mention the EPG was slow.

This picture was the PIP version.
http://i21.tinypic.com/2558ahg.jpg

We also don't know what it will look like.
HDTVexpert does have this image of a Digital TVGuide EPG watching channel 3-1
http://i20.tinypic.com/2ntfo8i.jpg (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/images/2fcc.jpg)

A few features are confirmed by SolidSignal:

EPG (Electronic Program Guide) time zone specific. You can see what will be showing up to a week in an advance. (area dependent) Parental control user adjustable. Basic cable or satellite subscription service is no longer needed!

Customizable closed caption (fonts, size and position on screen) with a 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio.

• Completely programmable and software update enabled
• ATSC tuner
• RF out port
• NTSC modulated out channel (3 or 4) selectable
• IR sensor
• Parental control
• Auto Power down / Auto Scan
• Manual channel set up
• Digital close caption
• Analog passthrough
• Electronic Program Guide
• VCR Timers
• Composite Video Out / RF Out

A few features are confirmed by SolidSignal:

EPG (Electronic Program Guide) time zone specific. You can see what will be showing up to a week in an advance. (area dependent) Parental control user adjustable. Basic cable or satellite subscription service is no longer needed!

Customizable closed caption (fonts, size and position on screen) with a 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio.

• Completely programmable and software update enabled
• ATSC tuner
• RF out port
• NTSC modulated out channel (3 or 4) selectable
• IR sensor
• Parental control
• Auto Power down / Auto Scan
• Manual channel set up
• Digital close caption
• Analog passthrough
• Electronic Program Guide
• VCR Timers
• Composite Video Out / RF Out



I think I read somewhere from Echostar that the EPG would be instant.

please merge these two threads!!!

maybe "DTVPal formerly Echostar tr-40" or something like that????

Thank you, rat. I fully admit it is tempting. My last voucher expires 6/18. If nothing better comes along by then I may flip a coin to decide between the Zenith and taking a chance pre-ordering the DTVpal. I do want it to be real and successful, because I really want the TR-50 (or what ever they rename it to).

me too, although that is even more vaporware. I haven't seen anything more than the trade show demo.

I suspect the TR-40 / DTV Pal will be real enough - I intend to pre-order one myself.

I'm sure they will both be real, but right now the TR-50 descriptions are nonexistent, other than that trade show video. But that's another thread...

Just received my confirmation on my TR-40 0rder from Provantage. on the email they sent it's listed as DTVPal Digital-to-Analog TV Converter . I had already contacted them asking if my order would automatically be changed from the tr-40 to the dtvpal they said it would, now hopefully it will just become a reality....

All boxes have these features............................... Unique DTVPal features
• ATSC tuner .................................................... • Program search
• RF out port .................................................... • Event Timer (Scheduled to occur daily, weekly or Mon-Fri)
• Digital close caption ........................................ • Uses customer’s zip code to confirm the time zone for EPG
• IR sensor ....................................................... • Software Update enabled - according to solidsignal
• Parental control .............................................. • TVGuide EPG
• Auto Power down / Auto Scan ........................... • Advertisements on EPG
• NTSC modulated out channel (3 or 4) selectable
• Electronic Program Guide
• Composite Video Out / RF Out

We already know it will have:
Analog PassThrough, 7-day EPG, External Power Supply, Event Timers
I don't think they will call it VCR Timers as it has no IR Blaster.

I did not know it would have software update enabled.
It must update over the air as it does not have a upgrade port like the Tivax or Artec does for example.

Some boxes do have a Manual Channel feature but it's not documented like the Sansonic ;)
You can use the signal strength meter to manually go to a physical channel.

^+1

2 separate questions:

1. Everything I'd seen on this unit showed an MSRP of $39.99 or $40, so I'm just wondering how Provantage is charging more? It doesn't seem the sort of practice Echostar would allow. And on a side-note, I wonder why SolidSignal (or anyone else) isn't accepting pre-orders for these since apparently the 60 day authorization window is a valid feature of the coupon program. I guess it all just boils down to the principle of paying over MSRP that's bothering me and I wish there was a way to avoid it (my coupons expire very soon). Whacking on that extra bit has certainly hurt Provantage's reputation in my eyes - it just smacks of blatant greed to me.

2. One of the big extra features of this unit to me is the 7 day EPG. But I'm left wondering if it is meaningful or meaningless. Does anyone know where to check to find out which broadcasters send out more than just current/next show info? Or is this some sort of other service entirely that provides the full 7 days of data over the air?

Provantage could be the cheapest, it depends on the shipping.
I have heard for one box that it is $6.95 shipping with Provantage.

That makes them $0.50 less than SolidSignal.

2 separate questions:

1. Everything I'd seen on this unit showed an MSRP of $39.99 or $40, so I'm just wondering how Provantage is charging more? It doesn't seem the sort of practive Echostar would allow. ?

MSRP Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price..


Oh and by the way, watch the prices on all of the various boxes drop to 40 dollars, all over the place, once the market gets flooded with them.


John

Any word on availability in a brick-and-mortar retail outlet? I'll probably order online, but if I can save a few bucks and pick it up locally I'll do that.

Personally I liked the name TR-40 better. DTV-PAL? But I need the NTSC version, not PAL! ;)

And I liked the boxy TR-40 prototype better too. This new design looks like some newfangled IKEA memory foam pillow. Let's hope marketing didn't mess with the circuit board.

2 separate questions:

1. Everything I'd seen on this unit showed an MSRP of $39.99 or $40, so I'm just wondering how Provantage is charging more? It doesn't seem the sort of practice Echostar would allow. And on a side-note, I wonder why SolidSignal (or anyone else) isn't accepting pre-orders for these since apparently the 60 day authorization window is a valid feature of the coupon program. I guess it all just boils down to the principle of paying over MSRP that's bothering me and I wish there was a way to avoid it (my coupons expire very soon). Whacking on that extra bit has certainly hurt Provantage's reputation in my eyes - it just smacks of blatant greed to me.



According to the CECB program a vendor can charge whatever is reasonable, which is very open ended. I suppose if Echostar didn't put a limit on the price or the price being charged is within that limit.

And I liked the boxy TR-40 prototype better too. This new design looks like some newfangled IKEA memory foam pillow. Let's hope marketing didn't mess with the circuit board.

My tastes are rectangular when it comes to electronics too.

It was mentioned that it might prevent someone from stacking something on it and inhibiting cooling. The curve does also give more surface area for cooling. I suppose cone shaped would be better for surface area but then people would use them for hat racks.

Do you know anything about the circuit board in either or any comparisons?

According to the CECB program a vendor can charge whatever is reasonable, which is very open ended. I suppose if Echostar didn't put a limit on the price or the price being charged is within that limit.

Yeah, I know it has nothing to do with the CECB program. That's why I only mentioned Echostar. I have no idea what their policy is but many manufacturer's make their authorized retailers sign an agreement to not sell at a price over MSRP, under is okay but not over. Although, there are some manufacturers (Bose comes to mind) that won't even allow them to sell under - only at exactly the set MSRP.

• Advertisements on EPG


That's tacky. Where does this 7-day feed come from?

Don, I believe the Echostar box will have something like TVGOS which also has advertising. On the bright side it should be more reliable and go out further that the PCIP guide that other boxes use.
Oh and for the person who asked if any B &M stores would be carrying the Echostar, I've been told by a manager at Ultimate Electronics(if you have one near your) they will carry the CECB but not the TR-50. Not sure where else there's UE's but I for sure in the midwest and I think Denver area also.

" have no idea what their policy is but many manufacturer's make their authorized retailers sign an agreement to not sell at a price over MSRP, under is okay but not over. "

Any such agreement would be illegal in the United States. The manufacturer can "suggest" a selling price, but cannot restrict or control the price the retailer charges. The manufacturer cannot legally set the price.

That's tacky. Where does this 7-day feed come from?

Most likely your local PBS station (or CBS according to this article: http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6435011).

This is probably what it'll look like:
http://abi.s3.amazonaws.com/v9_listings_screen.jpg

I can definitly live with the ads (wouldn't surprise me if dish slips a few ads in there...). It's still better than what's out there now.

PSIP support by local stations has been sketchy at best. Half the time it says "DTV PROGRAM", or is off by 1 hour, etc. I wish the stations would do a better job of updating the PSIP data.

In theory the PSIP protocol does support detailed descriptions and multiple days of scheduling. Most STBs don't support much more than the simple current and next program info gathered from PSIP; those that do support a more detailed grid need to visit each channel long enough to get the PSIP data and fill it in. (My old Samsung T451 tuner took minutes to complete the scan.)

Yeah, TVGOS has some ads, but it sounds like it's more reliable and updates faster than anything else OTA. Not ideal, but as long as they don't pop up ads during the program I'm OK with it.

Ok - I just ordered my DTVPal.

I called to check on changing my order from TR-40 to DTV Pal and the CSR was clueless. I gave her the name of my sales person and the csr who sent me the email and she said she would check. Meanwhile I sent emails to the sales rep and CSR not to cancel my order but to change it to the DTV Pal. This is getting to be much too much work!!!!

Update: Got an email from Steve (CSR) and my order is fine.

I just preordered two with my coupons from provantage and the CSR told me they have no idea when it will ship, she said response has been overwhelming. She took my numbers, gave me a total of 16.35 for two including shipping.

Now the wait begins. :):)

Just preordered the dtvpal from Provantage. Lady told me they originally thought they would only sell around 6 a day. They are averaging 60 a day and still have no idea when they will ship out the units.

I'm in for two... after all, it was my original post!

Just preordered the dtvpal from Provantage. Lady told me they originally thought they would only sell around 6 a day. They are averaging 60 a day and still have no idea when they will ship out the units.
When I ordered mine today, the rep told me they expect to ship in late June. She knew right away what I wanted when I said DTV-Pal. Will be interesting when I get it to compare with my current Zenith box. My only concern, since I am in a very weak signal area, that the analog pass-through might swallow a few decibels. My Zenith is just fine, no complaints.

Is anyone else annoyed that they stopped updating their status site as of April 21st?

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/status.html

I plan to order coupons later in the year (waiting for TR40), but I didn't want to wait too long. Now that they don't update the stats anymore, judging this becomes difficult.

I emailed one coupon program contact and got a lame canned reply about how to order coupons, and I also emailed the doc.gov webmaster. That has been ignored so far. Good enough for government work, I guess.

yes, annoying. As of May 9th, they had 13,369,292, so the rate is up but not bad yet. You can still see the data if you download a spreadsheet, zip or state. They are 5 days behind on updating these, but usually they keep updating these even when they haven't updated the status page.

Most likely your local PBS station (or CBS according to this article: http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6435011).

This is probably what it'll look like:
http://abi.s3.amazonaws.com/v9_listings_screen.jpg

I can definitly live with the ads (wouldn't surprise me if dish slips a few ads in there...). It's still better than what's out there now.

why can't this be the standard for all boxes

Thank you, rat. I fully admit it is tempting. My last voucher expires 6/18. If nothing better comes along by then I may flip a coin to decide between the Zenith and taking a chance pre-ordering the DTVpal. I do want it to be real and successful, because I really want the TR-50 (or what ever they rename it to).

mine expire 06/23/08...but I decided to go ahead and buy them. I guess there is a possibility these will be available in store by then, but it was just $16.35 so i decided to jump on it even though it could be free in stores in late june. I don't think the TR-50 qualifies for the coupon though from what I read a long time ago.

It's weird how it says on this site http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/DISH_Network_DTVPal.html
"you cannot pre-order the dtvpal"

Manufactures have to pay a royalty to use this type of EPG and because of these royalties it is not standard for all boxes.

The TVGUIDE EPG gets its money from the royalty and advertisements.

EZdigital is saying that "you cannot pre-order the dtvpal" because Provantage is hoping/gambling that it can send all of these pre-orders within 60 days from when they were ordered. They are not using the SDR method of redeming coupons either.

Other retailers are afraid to have another ConvertMy.tv happen when it was allowing pre-orders of the MaxMedia.

Most likely your local PBS station (or CBS according to this article: http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6435011).

This is probably what it'll look like:
http://abi.s3.amazonaws.com/v9_listings_screen.jpg

I can definitly live with the ads (wouldn't surprise me if dish slips a few ads in there...). It's still better than what's out there now.

I'll be shocked if the guide looks like that. I had the guide on my old DVD recorder and it's alot more than just an "Event Timer".
But, I'm gambling my card and getting on the pre-order list anyway.

I don't think the TR-50 qualifies for the coupon though from what I read a long time ago.

It doesn't qualify because of its features. You recall correctly.

EZdigital is saying that "you cannot pre-order the dtvpal" because Provantage is hoping/gambling that it can send all of these pre-orders within 60 days from when they were ordered. They are not using the SDR method of redeming coupons either.

Other retailers are afraid to have another ConvertMy.tv happen when it was allowing pre-orders of the MaxMedia.

thanks for the info. I also have another question and I'm sorry if it has already been answered. From what I gathered, provantage will take the pre-order but they do not actually charge the card until they get it in stock for shipping. They just authorize the card for charges? My coupons expire in June 23rd, but I just realized they are supposed to be in stores in late June for $40. So I guess we have to pay extra to pre-order + shipping. I was wondering if it does indeed show up in stores in June would I be able to cancel my pre-order and use my coupons in store or will they be invalid because they have already been authorized by Provantage.

Thanks!

I hope the guide will look similar to the above picture with the nice channel display on the side it may look like the one I posted before.

I did however find that Gemstar has a interactive demo
http://i24.tinypic.com/2n1colg.jpg (http://tvgos.com/demo/)

Don't forget to press MENU on the demo to see how you would set reminders and edit channels.

I do wonder if it will have an over the air update however with Macrovision's Acquisition of Gemstar on 05/02/08 to change the look and feel or if they will leave it alone.

I haven't pre-ordered from provantage and can't answer for sure.

Someone who has could check to see if there coupon was redeemed or not at https://www.dtv2009.gov/CheckStatus.aspx by entering in their coupon.

If it was redeemed then you are stuck with provantage but should be able to switch to another CECB with them.

ConvertMy.TV did this by asking people to switch to the Sansonic.

Thanks for the info. I guess it's already redeemed cause it says "Your Coupon has been used to purchase a converter box and is no longer active."

EZdigital is saying that "you cannot pre-order the dtvpal" because Provantage is hoping/gambling that it can send all of these pre-orders within 60 days from when they were ordered. They are not using the SDR method of redeming coupons either.

And it is for this reason that I'd be very cautious pre ordering from Provantage at this time. The demand has been a lot more than they expected, and I would wager there is a significant risk that the supply of the boxes won't be able to meet the demand. This could turn into a real mess in a few months...

I have two coupons expiring July 7th, and am now leaning towards buying a couple more Insignias. If the DTV Pal turns out to be as good as it claims to be, I'll be happy to pay full price for them.

Provantage and convertmy.tv are in two different leagues... If something like that happened, I have no doubt Provantage would take care of their customers.

I agree that Provantage and convertmy.tv are in two different leagues but who knows if their DTVPal supply can meet their pre-orders demand.

What happens if they can't meet the 90 days NTIA rule, I am wondering if they will ask customers to switch to another CECB or if they can let you wait until a DTVPal becomes available.

Although you never can rule out some people's lack of common sense, I would assume that since we're dealing with two established companies such as ProVantage and Echostar that a) ProVantage would have enough sense to ascertain how many boxes they'll actually be able to get and not pre-sell more than that and b) Echostar has a good enough handle on their production capacity to supply a relatively accurate number to them. But hey, I routinely see companies bigger than these make truly boneheaded decisions so who knows. Nevertheless, unless this turns out to be vaporware (which seems unlikely) then I'd think the worst that could happen would be a delay. What really pisses me off is all of this could be avoided if they had simply extended the expirations like they were considering. I think it's appalling there are soldiers overseas serving their country who are gonna get shafted on these 90 day cards!

I think it's appalling there are soldiers overseas serving their country who are gonna get shafted on these 90 day cards!

I think expiring $40 coupons for CECB's are the least of our soldiers concerns. They've got bigger fish to fry.

Regarding provantage.com, I placed an order today for the DTVpal. I was told they would ship mid June. This coincides with solidsignal.com's claim that they will ship June 16th.

To my knowledge Echostar has never announced a box that they have not delivered. On many ocassions they were late with the box however. With one HD DVR they were two years late and when the box came out it was buggy and they were never able to fix the buggyness.

Rick R

If I recall the NTIA regulations for cashing the coupons, is you can take pre orders if you can assign a specific box to a specific purchaser...And you are sure the shipment of boxes is coming in... Shrugh


John.

now with a good EPG and each station with revenue generating main and 5 sub stations it going to spell the end of cable/dish TV. The price of fuel and food going up something is going to give and it will be the cost cable/dish TV. People just aren't going to be able to afford all these expenses which in turn will bost broadcast back into the lead i'm thinking. It may take a few years but it will come if FIOS goverment sponcered tv doesn't beat it out. What is FIOS goverment sponcered tv you ask, simply it will be broadcast tv over the phones FIOS lines since this will replace copper everywhere one day or internet TV in other words.

Today at noon the proadvantage.com website reported that the DTVPal is "On Hold
This item is currently on hold and is not available for sale at this time. Please try again later."

now with a good EPG and each station with revenue generating main and 5 sub stations it going to spell the end of cable/dish TV.Not the end, by any means. Just a luxury that only those with plenty of disposable income or high salaries can afford, like many sporting and entertainment events now. What they lose in cancellations, they'll make up by those people willing and able to pay much more.

It'll just be another thing that the average American will be "priced out" of.

Also, as bad as a lot of the standard cable channels have gotten, the majority of subchannels still don't even compare to them.

I called them. They are no longer taking pre-orders until they can be assured that their supplier can deliver the current pre-order quantity.
So I have to wait.
EDIT - 'They' being Pro-Vantage. I wasn't specific.

They are taking orders again.

Not taking pre-orders. Just called couple of minutes ago.

Not taking pre-orders. Just called couple of minutes ago.

this is why mosquito isn't taking pre orders just sending out email when the product is in.

Dagger666, read post #185 and 193 from Malouff, for the explanation of pre order differences. He has quotes from FAQ 327 as well as mosquito.

may_queen, You are saying Provatage isn't taking pre-orders today?

Maybe the NTIA made them stop taking pre-orders, who knows.

I didn't see any scheduled maintenance/Planned System Outage notice for today at the NTIA.

Remember when ordering to look at the front page of the NTIA for these notices. (https://www.ntiadtv.gov/)
Most current PLANNED SYSTEM OUTAGE is Sunday, May 18, 2008 from 2 A.M. EDT - 8 A.M. EDT.

Most likely your local PBS station (or CBS according to this article: http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6435011).

This is probably what it'll look like:
http://abi.s3.amazonaws.com/v9_listings_screen.jpg

I can definitly live with the ads (wouldn't surprise me if dish slips a few ads in there...). It's still better than what's out there now.

This is the TVGOS version 8 guide grid...to my knowledge the only digital HD box that uses this screen is the Sony 250/500, but I'm not familiar with Dish recorders or other satellite recorders...has anyone seen this display on any HD box (or even any SD box)???

Thanks - Tony

(I think it would be fabulous if the DTVPal had this...in fact, of course, it would LITERALLY be fabulous, since this graphic show the little red "set to record regularly" button on Grey's Anatomy...there's no way this converter box is going to record, but maybe its related HD box, the TR-50, which Echostar said would come out later in the year will have this guide type...)

I didn't mean to imply it would look exactly like the guide pictured above. I just used that to give an idea of how the layout and ads might look like.

I'd say the TR40 is likely to have something closer to this:

http://abi.s3.amazonaws.com/guidedaily.jpg

But, who knows until we actually have one in our hands...

Symbios both look better to me than the demo (http://tvgos.com/demo/) at Gemstar.
With both of yours you get to see the channel number they are on.

if that does stay the EPG hopefully it becomes the standard and all boxes and tv's will take it throught some type of upgrade. Better yet just make a sub channel with the guide that way everyone will have it which by one post seams to be the way they are going.

I think expiring $40 coupons for CECB's are the least of our soldiers concerns. They've got bigger fish to fry.
Duh! That was the point of my comment. Soldiers serving their country overseas do indeed have bigger fish to fry and other concerns. That's precisely why it should have been the concern of the government on their behalf to make sure that none of them were getting shafted by this paltry 90 day expiration. There was all this noise at the beginning of the program that there would only be a limited number of coupons and so people should make sure they got theirs. Yet virtually no one was mentioning that they came with a 90 day expiration. So obviously there were military people who went ahead and ordered theirs and now are going to have them expire before they return from overseas.

I didn't mean to imply it would look exactly like the guide pictured above. I just used that to give an idea of how the layout and ads might look like.

I'd say the TR40 is likely to have something closer to this:

http://abi.s3.amazonaws.com/guidedaily.jpg

But, who knows until we actually have one in our hands...

no, I understand, but was curious what satellite boxes had similar guides...what's this one from? Maybe the Dish box?

Both images came from TVGuideOnScreen.com (http://www.tvguideonscreen.com/resources/).

http://www.dishnetwork.com/digitaltransition/optionA.shtml

www.dtvpal.com is mentioned in the above webpage. However, the site is still under construction.

Not the end, by any means. Just a luxury that only those with plenty of disposable income or high salaries can afford, like many sporting and entertainment events now. What they lose in cancellations, they'll make up by those people willing and able to pay much more.

It'll just be another thing that the average American will be "priced out" of.

Also, as bad as a lot of the standard cable channels have gotten, the majority of subchannels still don't even compare to them.

of course because digital OTA TV isn't on the playing field yet, still warming up. The up said of the cable/dish loosing subscribers is those channels will have to jump to broadcast OTA TV. I don't think it will be long, maybe 5 years before we start to see CBS,NBC,ABC channels 1 and 2, like ESPN/MSG 1 & 2. Digital Broadcast OTA has leveled the playing field and now cable and dish will have to sweat it out. There was once a OTA scrambled movie channel here in ny and i see that coming back.

Most likely your local PBS station (or CBS according to this article: http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6435011).

This is probably what it'll look like:
http://abi.s3.amazonaws.com/v9_listings_screen.jpg

I can definitly live with the ads (wouldn't surprise me if dish slips a few ads in there...). It's still better than what's out there now.


This is almost exactly how the guide looks on my Toshiba 42HP95 cablecard TV.

of course because digital OTA TV isn't on the playing field yet, still warming up. The up said of the cable/dish loosing subscribers is those channels will have to jump to broadcast OTA TV. I don't think it will be long, maybe 5 years before we start to see CBS,NBC,ABC channels 1 and 2, like ESPN/MSG 1 & 2. Digital Broadcast OTA has leveled the playing field and now cable and dish will have to sweat it out. There was once a OTA scrambled movie channel here in ny and i see that coming back.

The vast majority of Americans are not watching broadcast TV today. The majority is either not watching TV at all or is watching cable/sat services.

I don't agree that digital TV has leveled the playing field. The networks can't provide compelling programming on one channel let alone four or five channels. Moreover, the whole digital transition scares the hell out of the big networks. There will be a certain number of people that will lose their signal next Feb. and will never watch TV again.

like i said it will take some time but don't think they are going to let this slip through their fingers. Americans always complain about upgrading to new hardware, look at all the people still using windows 98. they will get their act together after Feb when they have no choice and broadcast oat TV will reach more people than cable/dish and will be a cost savings. people can't pay 5.00 for gas and 10.00 for flour and keep paying 100.00+ for cable/dish TV, something has to give. guy at home depot said they have had a flood of people buying new TV antennas Begining around the first of the year like never before, what does that tell you.

no, I understand, but was curious what satellite boxes had similar guides...what's this one from? Maybe the Dish box?Echostar's satellite STBs and DVRs look like this:

http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/tr50/guidews.jpg
High-definition 622/722 DVR with 16:9 program guide

http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/tr50/guide.jpg
Standard 4:3 program guide

Don't forget the i-guide (http://www.i-guide.tv/) used by cable also powered by TVGuide and with advertisements

Where are the advertisements with Dish Network?
I do like how a 16:9 display has more room then a 4:3 to show more time but don't think the DTVPal will be set up for one either.

Where are the advertisements with Dish Network?

TV Guide is probably paid by Dish for it's service, who then passes on the cost to subscribers through their monthly fee.

TV Guide is probably paid by Dish for it's service, who then passes on the cost to subscribers through their monthly fee.
Am I the only one who thinks this thread has wandered off the path just a bit . . . . ?

Why then does the i-Guide with Cable also have advertisements isn't it also paid by the Cable company for it's service?

The DTVPal will have a TVGuide EPG so how is talking about the TVGuide not thread related?
Do you want this thread to just sit here until June/July when it is released or there is official news to talk about?

I am fine with that as I still plan on ordering a DTVPal

The vast majority of Americans are not watching broadcast TV today. The majority is either not watching TV at all or is watching cable/sat services.

I don't agree that digital TV has leveled the playing field. The networks can't provide compelling programming on one channel let alone four or five channels. Moreover, the whole digital transition scares the hell out of the big networks. There will be a certain number of people that will lose their signal next Feb. and will never watch TV again.

One of the most simplistic myths floating around is that the broadcast networks are scared or on their way out or non-competitive. There are so many interlocked relationships between the networks and alternative delivery services now it's not even funny (ABC/Disney, NBC/ Murdoch etc). Sure there is a lack of content at the moment on broadcast but it's no different than the large amount of fluff in the cable and sat. lineups. I'm getting 4 or 5 new blocks of channels added every few months lately on broadcast (it's up to over 60 channels). Check out the media info center, it's enlightning. What do you think is going to get cut first in the household budget, food, gas, or television?

http://www.mediainfocenter.org/television/televisioncategories.asp

Am I the only one who thinks this thread has wandered off the path just a bit . . . . ?What more can be said about a box which hasn't even been released yet? :)

Am I the only one who thinks this thread has wandered off the path just a bit . . . . ?

It's not off. We are speculating about what the DTVPal guide may or may not entail. Not much else to talk about since this is basically the only thing that may set this box apart from most of the other CECB's.

Not the only thing. There's that event timer...

The event timer is provided by the TVGuide EPG, so here we are back to the EPG.

There is however the MicroTune Tuner that is also being used in the Falcon Digital Boxes.
I do hope that it is the SoC or firmware that is causing these disappointing reports with those CECB's.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was thinking it would be a menu function, but that would not be nearly as convenient. :o

I was wondering about that microtune tuner, too. It certainly didn't make a huge positive splash from the perspective of reviews.

You can see how the event timer should work by trying out the interactive demo TVGuide (http://tvgos.com/demo/)
Highlighting the program and pressing Menu or OK to bring up the side menu to set the event.

I do like on the Guided Tour how they say you can set a reminder to turn on your TV and tune to the channel. (we know that is not going to happen)

It might also have the schedule tab like the demo to see all of your scheduled events.

Thanks, I did see the TV Guide demo, but I wasn't clear on whether it would be that full, once someone also posted the Dish guide, which didn't have the scheduling tab. I wish they'd hurry up and announce the features, and the plan for distribution beyond their first batch, which seems to be all online. A couple people are asking me when they should order coupons to have these be locally available.

The cable i-Guide also lets you set reminders/events, and looks different.
I am betting it will be very similar to the demo.

The vast majority of Americans are not watching broadcast TV today. The majority is either not watching TV at all or is watching cable/sat services.


I disagree...I think a lot of people are watching broadcast TV. I bet a lot of people enjoy watching free OTA HD broadcasts.:)

Over the Air TV is going to make a come back... As Gasoline hits four bucks a
gallon, people are going to reconsider their 110 dollar cable bills.


John

What more can be said about a box which hasn't even been released yet? :)Well, nothing, really. But that's kind of the point :)

I have a subscription on this thread, thinking that way I'll get a message when someone can finally post it's available, or give an update on availability or specs. But although I get email notification after email notification after email notification that someone is adding to this thread .. I've clicked on that link dozens of times to find out that there's no news at all really, just chat. Now we're to the point we're merely speculating on how many people watch TV (any tv, any tuner) using an antenna!

Now we're to the point we're merely speculating on how many people watch TV (any tv, any tuner) using an antenna!

Using an antenna?

Yesterday and today I experimented with my Paper Clip Antenna on two Zenith DTT900 models. On two problematic local channel groups the Paper Clip Antenna gave results equal to or better than my RCA ANT111 indoor antenna. (Your results may vary.)

This thread now has some actual test results!

Add yourself to the notification list at FreeDTVShop.com then you will know when John/mosquito will be taking orders and when it should be available with him.

SolidSignal says it will be out June 16th so start notifications for this thread around that time.

There was also the tr40@slingmedia.com email but I don't think it will be of much use, you would think they would updated to a DTVPal one.

Add what ever webstore/webpage you are wanting to monitor add a Automatic website change notification service for example add SolidSignal since they don't have a notification list.

I have never needed to use one but you could try http://www.changedetection.com/ or http://changealarm.businessmatter.com or http://www.watchthatpage.com/

in most home the only reason they have a phone is to connect to the Internet, everything else is done through a cell phone. i see people having fios for Internet but ota for TV. fios triple package is 95.00 but with tax comes to 130.00 a month which is 1,560 a year. i can find better things to spend that money on than giving it to verizon which is why I'm still on dsl for 20.00 a month. i can watch my hockey on the Internet for free then pay dish/cable or NHL network a monthly charge. every time we talk about getting cable/dish all we need to see is all the junk on it and say we are not paying for this, shows from the 70s and 80s. most of those channels you are only paying pennies in your basic charge so why would they not go to free TV and have companies pay the advertising bill.

SolidSignal says it will be out June 16th so start notifications for this thread around that time.Unless I've missed it, I have not seen on this thread any indication of which retail outlets will sell the DTVpal. Is anything known on this.

nothing is known

AFAIK
some local Dish Network dealers(installers) will have the DTV-Pal.
also it should be available at some locations where Slingbox is sold.

Well, nothing, really. But that's kind of the point :) I have a subscription on this thread, thinking that way I'll get a message when someone can finally post it's available, or give an update on availability or specs. But although I get email notification after email notification after email notification that someone is adding to this thread .. I've clicked on that link dozens of times to find out that there's no news at all really, just chat. Now we're to the point we're merely speculating on how many people watch TV (any tv, any tuner) using an antenna!
Exactly my point. I've seen quite a few threads hijacked by what begins as honest speculation morphing into superfluous commentary. If you don't think that's where this thread is going, ask yourself what the price of gas has to do with this box. We come to these threads for information.

There are always folks around to get the threads back on track. :P

Since some have reported that Radio Shack will no longer be selling the Zenith I'm wondering if Radio Shack will be offering the DTVPal.

Radio Shack already has a sales relationship with Dish Network.

Called Provantage today. They're not taking pre-orders anymore.

Guess my coupons will expire on 6/6. :(

Since some have reported that Radio Shack will no longer be selling the Zenith I'm wondering if Radio Shack will be offering the DTVPal.

Radio Shack already has a sales relationship with Dish Network.Makes sense. Same with Sears.

Got this today from Provantage regarding my DTV Pal order:

"Your order has been placed with one of our suppliers who will ship it directly to you.

The supplier has not provided us with a firm shipping date.

Note: Your order has been forwarded to a regional warehouse for processing. We will issue an invoice once we have confirmation."

Sign of progress or did everyone get the same note a few days after they ordered?

I got that same message when I ordered on the 14th, except it didn't have the part about the supplier not providing them with a firm shipping date.

Much the same email, along with my order number

Ordered mine on May 9th received email on May 13th same type info

take a look at this -

http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/DISH_Network_DTVPal.html

everything you want to know about tr-40 except when they go on sale :)

I haven't ordered my coupons yet, but I just might order them soon. I also suspect that Sears and Radio Shack will carry these. At least I sure hope they carry them!

Can anyone comment on this...
http://twitpic.com/14i3

Wow, a real picture of it. Looks like it was taken at the 2008 Dish Network Team Summit.

http://i21.tinypic.com/3178wle.jpg (http://twitpic.com/14i3)
TR40 renamed DTVpal and shrank 50%

Where/How did you find this image, it may also give some news about it.

Can anyone comment on this...
http://twitpic.com/14i3

The logo looks like a ham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NCI_clove_ham.jpg)that's grown legs. :p Here's the link (http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-05/dish-team-summit-tweets/) to the source article. I wonder if Zatz would be willing to comment on the box in use.

Solidsignal has just raised their price again. A few days ago it was upped to $42, and now it is at $49. plus the $10 shipping.

Solidsignal has just raised their price again. A few days ago it was upped to $42, and now it is at $49. plus the $10 shipping.

it says the MSRP: $59.99...is that true? or are they making it up as some stores do... I thought it was supposed to be $39.99.

Solidsignal has just raised their price again. A few days ago it was upped to $42, and now it is at $49. plus the $10 shipping.

Markets "Supply and Demand".

One would think they at least ought to get the boxes before raising the price,
well I guess if they want that increase on a boatload of boxes they have to
get it now with the pre orders :P

I don't know about you guys but I would looking FreeDTVShop.com first as John said he plans on selling them for $39.99 so it would just be the shipping.
Not only that but you could get two with combined shipping.

Remember, nobody is accepting coupons for the DTVPal yet and prices are likely to go all over the place.

The dtvpal.com site is now up, with sign up for a newsletter. They said mid-late June DishNetwork would be selling -- but who that means was not clarified.

I didn't see a price.

It sounds like the event timer programs the CECB to turn on and change the the right channel, but you'd have to separately program the VCR.

It sounds like the event timer programs the CECB to turn on and change the the right channel, but you'd have to separately program the VCR.Well, yeah - what were you expecting for a government subsidized CECB box?

I wasn't expecting much. NTIA would not approve a box with a recording device feature. It sure doesn't make it a transparent transition, does it?

Thank you TalkingRat this is some of the best DTVPal news yet...
A Official Site at last

All the domains are active.
DTVPal.com, DTVPal.org, and DTVPal.net and they all show the same thing.

I like how the weight is TBD (To Be Determined)

I will add a http://www.changedetection.com notification so I get e-mailed updates to the site as I tried all three I recommended earlier and this one worked the best for me.

I also subscribed to there newsletter and hope they do better with this than they did with the tr40@slingmedia.com email

It was Whidbey who spotted the site, I just saw that it was active. I had hoped for more detail. And more news. Hoping the newsletter will come soon.

Yes, the box is tiny! The big bright logo is something I won't want visible from where I sit.

This whole coupon/box thing is turning into a scam. Coupon only good for a few number of days, good boxes (DTV PAL) only coming out after early-birds' coupons expire, and now retailers are starting to gouge (albeit in the name of capitalism) on the half-way descent boxes that are actually available. Our local HH Gregg just raised the Zenith DTT900 from $49 to $59 for a box that probably costs $5 (if that) to make.

WOW! That's a tiny box!I guess you can do that when the power supply is external. Should cut way down on the heat.

Does anyone have any info on the only coupon-eligible box Provantage currently lists (DSP7500T)? Better/worse than the DTV Pal holy grail?

Can anyone comment on this...
twitpic.com/14i3

Specs on DTVPal.Com suggests it is larger (twice the size as picture):
H: 1.3” x W: 5.9” x D: 4.2”

Specs on DTVPal.Com suggests it is larger (twice the size as picture):
H: 1.3” x W: 5.9” x D: 4.2”

or smaller if the paper under the box is 8.5" x 11".

TalkingRat,

Whidbey was not the first to post about the site his post was on 05/17/08
There was a earlier post about multiple DTVPal sites on 04/16/08

You were however the first to report it was active and I am grateful.

I had forgot about checking on the sites as EchoStar/SlingMedia is very quite about their product.
I also did not think of using something like http://www.changedetection.com

They are probably afraid to release to much of anything after seeing what happened to MaxMedia and what is currently happening to MicroProse.

Does anyone know if they had to reapply to the NTIA for the Name & Cosmetic changes to the TR-40?

or smaller if the paper under the box is 8.5" x 11".

I would guess that the distance between the thumb and index finger is 4" or so.

LG has two different listings on the NTIA approved CECBs
under Zenith and Insignia the brand names they are being sold as.

Dish Network is only listed as DISH Network DTVPal
The DTVPal should reapply under that brand names it was be sold as. SlingMedia and EchoStar

So they don't encounter a NTIA delay/problem like MicroProse did.

LG should not be treated different then Dish Network?

Did the DTVPal have to gain certification with the NTIA for it's modifications both to the size and name change from the TR-40 to be listed under DTVPal?

If not why does MicroProse?

The NTIA looks like it is not having these CECB Manufactures playing by the same rules.

Doesn't everyone find it sad that the NTIA has a release about MicroProse (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/press/2008/DTV_Consumer_Alert_5.22.08.pdf) selling a passThru model MPI-500PT*
even though they were listed for a Digital Only MPI-500 and got told off by the NTIA?

What NTIA rule did MicroProse break?
All the manufactures have made some modifications since being listed.
Look at Zenith they have had different tuners and recently something in the APRIL 2008 build to fix the audio.

Where was this release from the NTIA when MaxMedia kept changing features and sold vaporware with a promise of a June Delivery for those who ordered.

But actually, it was at one point listed in the CECB approved list both ways, as Echostar TR-40 and DishNetwork DTVPal. It may have been listed as SlingMedia, too. They cleaned up the list a week or two ago.

Zenith did apply for its change to new numbers for Zenity (DTT901) and Insignia; this was a tuner change from TDVG-H051F to TDVG-H151F. It was approved by the FCC on 3/12/08. But it hasn't made it on the CECB approved list yet.

https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/tcb/reports/Tcb731GrantForm.cfm?mode=COPY&RequestTimeout=500&application_id=523261&fcc_id=BEJ9QKE00710

I do remember it being listed as the EchoStar TR-40
Then as both the TR-40 and DishNetwork DTVPal

I don't think it was ever listed as LG has done with the Zenith and Insignia.
These CECB Manufactures need to play by the same rules and it would be in

DishNetwork would benefit to have it listed under both brands as people will see it twice not only that but they made a smarter move then LG did but using DTVPal as the model number for both brands.

I know that LG did apply for the Zenith DTT901* and Insignia NS-DXA1-APT*

They would have to apply again as they already have a products under the Zenith DTT900 and Insignia NS-DXA1 listings and need a new listing for there new upcoming products.

MicroProse on the other hand never sold a MPI-500 so that listing should have been free to change to the MPI-500PT*

Apparently, there must have been some hidden NTIA rule as I can't find one that MicroProse violated.

I was asking about the DTVPal keep getting relisted under different listings as it should help in the MicroProse problem.

Malouff, your questions are answered in Manufacturer FAQ#46 (changes) and #47 (pass through)

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/manufacturerFAQ.html

Will Provantage get overwhelmed by all the folks who have coupons expiring today (everyone who ordered coupons the first day)?

Got an email this morning that freedtvshop.com is now taking orders for the DTVPAL. $42.50 each with $9.95 shipping for one or two. I order two this morning and it came out to $14.95 for two after coupon with shipping. ETA 6-16-2008.

I was notified today that they are accepting pre-orders here:
www.freedtvshop.com but ONLY if your coupon expires after
06/20/2008. I guess I am out of luck since mine expires 06/06/2008.
The FCC folks have refused to cancel and re-issue my coupons. :(

The most anticipated coupon eligible converter box in the federal government's TV Converter Box Coupon Program is almost here! Not only does it boast great features, like the event timer, silicon tuner, and analog passthrough, it's also the cheapest box on the market --

ONLY $42.50, or $2.50 after coupon!

FreeDTVShop.com is now accepting pre-orders for this converter box
CLICK HERE TO ORDER NOW
http://www.freedtvshop.com/fdtv/converters/dtvpal.php

Shipping is only $9.95 for your entire order and we ship to all areas covered by the coupon program, so tell your friends in the American Samoa, Guam, Micronesia, Northern Mariana Islands, Palau, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands!

Government coupons will be accepted with expiration dates on or after 06/20/2008. You will be required to input your coupon month and day when ordering. False dates will result in cancelled orders.

AND DON'T FORGET THAT FOR EVERY DTVPAL ORDERED, WE'LL DONATE 10% OF OUR PROFITS TO SUPPORT OUR TROOPS VIA THE FREEDOM CALLS FOUNDATION!

Questions or comments? Contact us at sales@freedtvshop.com



Mick

Just my luck! My coupon expires on 6/17.

I was notified today that they are accepting pre-orders here:
www.freedtvshop.com but ONLY if your coupon expires after
06/20/2008. I guess I am out of luck since mine expires 06/06/2008.
The FCC folks have refused to cancel and re-issue my coupons. :(

The most anticipated coupon eligible converter box in the federal government's TV Converter Box Coupon Program is almost here! Not only does it boast great features, like the event timer, silicon tuner, and analog passthrough, it's also the cheapest box on the market --

ONLY $42.50, or $2.50 after coupon!

FreeDTVShop.com is now accepting pre-orders for this converter box
CLICK HERE TO ORDER NOW
http://www.freedtvshop.com/fdtv/converters/dtvpal.php

Shipping is only $9.95 for your entire order and we ship to all areas covered by the coupon program, so tell your friends in the American Samoa, Guam, Micronesia, Northern Mariana Islands, Palau, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands!

Government coupons will be accepted with expiration dates on or after 06/20/2008. You will be required to input your coupon month and day when ordering. False dates will result in cancelled orders.

AND DON'T FORGET THAT FOR EVERY DTVPAL ORDERED, WE'LL DONATE 10% OF OUR PROFITS TO SUPPORT OUR TROOPS VIA THE FREEDOM CALLS FOUNDATION!

Questions or comments? Contact us at sales@freedtvshop.com



Mick


I s uspect its because he cant be sure he will have product before the expiration date of 6/20.

John

I really don't get this. According to a discussion earlier in this thread (related to how ProVantage was already accepting pre-orders), merchants are allowed to just authorize the card giving them time to then ship the box later. And if they really are expecting these the week on June 16th as they claim, they would be fine even accepting cards that are expiring this month. So what's the deal... are they just being overly conservative or was that whole authorization method not accurate?

I really don't get this. According to a discussion earlier in this thread (related to how ProVantage was already accepting pre-orders), merchants are allowed to just authorize the card giving them time to then ship the box later. And if they really are expecting these the week on June 16th as they claim, they would be fine even accepting cards that are expiring this month. So what's the deal... are they just being overly conservative or was that whole authorization method not accurate?


I am thinking conservative to try and stay within the rules.. shrugh.;)

Broke down and purchased mine. My coupons were expiring 6/22 so I just made it.

Really wanted to wait and see if I could get them at Radio Shack or something but didn't want to risk losing out because of my exp date.

Dang.  My last coupon's expiration date was June 24.  I'd have saved the trip of exchanging my Magnavox TB100MG9 for itself to apply to the coupon to it if I'd been sure of being able to use the coupon on a DTVPal.  The total price comes out the same but it would have saved me the return trip to the store.

Well, at least this way I'll be able to wait and hear how well the DTVPal lives up to its promises before buying one.

Hopefully it does all it says.

FreeDTVShop was told by their supplier to expect a delivery between 6/16 and 6/20, so they are proceeding with caution so that they don't disappoint anyone and cause a lot of extra work for themselves.

Also FreeDTVShop's hands are tied by the NTIA's policy
that you can't redeem the coupon until it is in your supply chain and you can guarantee delivery - you know the 60 day rule.

Since the the latest date told to them by there supplier is 6/20 that is why they are only accepting 6/20 coupons.

John is probably one of the few following all the NTIA rules and although I am sure he would like to help those with expiring coupons he can't because of the NTIA.

Try your luck contacting the NTIA
- They don't seem to want to respond to me I must have been added to the CBA do not respond list -
eMail addresses for the NTIA Staff (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/otiahome/staff.htm) - NTIA staff phone numbers (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/phones.htm)

(Deleted by author)

I'd be very carefull with the FreeDTVshop.com website. I found this in another forum, it speaks for itself.

No, in reality that posting is false and nothing more than a plagiarized rehash of the Slashdot article about convertmy.tv (a.k.a Memsen) (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/08/2245248) and the MaxMedia fiasco (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1003794), except with the names changed to FreeDTVshop.

It was even posted here on AVSForum but was quickly refuted and deleted.

No, in reality that posting is false and nothing more than a plagiarized rehash of the Slashdot article about convertmy.tv (a.k.a Memsen) (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/08/2245248) and the MaxMedia fiasco, except with the names changed to FreeDTVshop.

It was even posted here on AVSForum but was quickly refuted and deleted.

Thanks for pointing that out. I have removed the post. Apologies to FreeDTVShop.com

Malouff,

I did contact DISH, and although I had short lived hope, now I feel led on. This whole government run thing is a mess, and I keep hearing rumors of re-application but how do I know what to do?

I have a little over 1 week to make a decision.

Do I drive around St. Louis burning $4 gas on a rainy day (that wasn't supposed to rain), in hopes of finding a quality box at $20 over coupon (x2 for two boxes)? Or start calling NTIA? or Provantage and beg for a pre-order?

This whole situation is nuts. Our government sucks in every way possible. Big business isn't much better.

Jeff,

Our TR-40 should be available in June or July. We’re aware of coupons expiring and are hoping the NTIA offers extensions, but unfortunately that’s out of our control. Check back with me in a month or so – we may be able to push up the distribution date.

Regards,

Francie Bauer

Francie Bauer
Manager, Corporate Communications
DISH Network Corporation
EchoStar Corporation
720-514-5839

Jeff,
We are exploring pre-orders. I should know something by the end of the week -- can you check back with me Friday?

Thanks!



Unfortunately, no updates at this time. So sorry about that!



Francie Bauer
Manager, Corporate Communications
DISH Network Corporation
EchoStar Corporation
720-514-5839

Hopefully it does all it says.And more, if you're just talking about what people in this forum are expecting. A lot of us over in the HD Hardware and DVD Recorder forums are hoping it will also allow us to keep using our analog-based TVGOS programming guides by converting the digital guide data to a usable analog form. There have been some reports that it will.

I was notified today that they are accepting pre-orders here:
www.freedtvshop.com
Government coupons will be accepted with expiration dates on or after 06/20/2008. You will be required to input your coupon month and day when ordering. False dates will result in cancelled orders.


I took advantage of John's deal here and used both my coupons that expire in late July to preorder a pair of DTVPal boxes. Everything seems to point to this model as being among the best choices that will be available to me for use with the coupons. Rather than bet one of our local small town brick n mortars will get stock in time, getting in the queue here made great sense.

--Bob

I was recently asked if I could post a link to a official site that shows the DTVPal/TR40 is somehow related to the TVGuide.
I can NOT find any official site that is DTVPal/TR40 and TVGuide are related

It looks like the TVGuide EPG hype was created by potential buyers
- Look at the first page of the TR40 thread and you can see the TVGuide idea has been here for quite some time -
...It has VCR timers (blasters?), along with a seven day TV Guide (?) program guide....

I and others are apparently very wrong as it looks like the DTVPal will also be using PSIP data not the TVGuide.

I have seen several reports that:
The DTVPal has a Electronic Program Guide (EPG)
with instant access to up to seven days of program listings and information
to up to seven days does not sound like the TVGuide EPG.

Will DTVPal owners be sad to find out that FCC rules require stations to send
a MINIMUM of 12 hours of fully and PROPERLY populated EPG via PSIP.

However, not all stations are currently doing this
- maybe a few DTVPal users will actually get up to seven days of program listings. -

It looks like the DTVPal is not this "Holy Grail" CECB that we have created in our minds.

If anything the other detailed EPG CECBs are teaching us a very important lesson.
Complex EPG CECBs do not perform very well as I don't think they have the CPU or Memory to gather parse and display a Complex Electronic Program Guide.

The DTVPal wants to do also do this and also allow searching of the PSIP data plus allow the creation of reminders.

I am beginning to understand why Zenith/Insignia/MicroProse have chosen to use a SIMPLE Now/Next

Anything complex simply degrades the performance of the CECB it takes away the
precious Memory and CPU for decoding the ATSC signal and devotes it to showing a complex EPG.

I did order from FreeDTVShop also and am not going to cancel my order.
I may be wrong about the DTVPal's performance.
We know it went though beta testers but they are not allowed to talk.

The DTVPal does however have these two features going for it.
It is cheap and it has analog passthru
It is also the only CECB with searching and reminders

I will be needing analog passthru and hate the way the philco/magnavox has implemented it.

I also have no idea when the NTIA will allow either
the MicroProse MPI-500PT* or Zenith DTT901* to be added to the allowed list.

If I were you guys I would still take a gamble with the DTVPal and also get the MicroProse MPI-500PT*
if it is added to the allowed list before your coupon(s) expires.
- We already know how the Zenith has been performing and the MicroProse is very similar -

As indicated in the initial news release about the Tr-50 and tr-40, the EPG of these units was associated - although not unequivocally - with the guide used by the Dish receiver (vip622), i.e., TV Guide, as indicated in the opening post of the TR-50 thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12724177#post12724177. As I note, this is not a hard and fast description of the exact guide used, but suggests that it is a variant of it.

Unfortunately,the "up to seven days" description is definitely ambiguous, since that is the maximum amount (I believe) of data to be provided in the PSIP data, AND it is also quite similar to what the 8 days of data that is standard with TV Guide, i.e., today and the next 7 days.

Furthermore, the release says "the TR-50 will receive free guide data from PBS and CBS stations 8-VSB datacast", which is a description of the TV Guide-type system, not of the PSIP data, which goes along with each channel being broadcast, and not as a collection of program data for all the channels broadcast, as in the Gemstar/TV Guide system.

Now it is true that this statement refers to the TR-50 specifically, but the impression is given that, in this respect, the two units would be based on the same technology.

So, to the extent that the news release can be interpreted this way, there IS a connection between the tr-40 and the TV Guide type guide. The connection is not crystal clear or iron-clad, but I think it does give hope that that is the approach the unit will take, which would of course be more useful and easy to use than the simpler systems that others are using.

Furthermore, it makes sense that the Echostar/Dish unit would use this technology, since they have it immediately available to them.

But, in the end, we shall we what we shall see.

Once all the analog tvs get added to digital OTA viewers, there will be greater demand for an extended guide. If they maintain programming onscreen, they wouldn't need to do it as far in advance as they do now, in order to have it printed in Sunday's paper. Local stations get better coverage onscreen anyway, since the paper only prints programs for the first subchannel.

I'm sure we all got the impression of TVGuide because of the CNET TR-50 review. But it also comes from emphasizing that the DTVPal has a "FREE" onscreen program guide, which makes it sound like there's more than the typical guide. I won't be horribly disappointed if it's just a longer version of PSIP, though.

With the overheating issues some boxes have had, having the event timer should make recording more reliable.

I'm also curious to see how the Microtune tuner performs, and to feed the VCR and PiP, I need a different brand box than my Zenith. Having analog passthrough means I only have to split the antenna 2 ways instead of 3.

I agree that we may be getting confusion between the TR-50 and DTVPal.

bdfox18doe was the one who told us that his stations send 48 hours but
FCC rules require stations to send a MINIMUM of 12 hours of fully and PROPERLY populated EPG via PSIP.
So for most the TVGuide will show MORE than PSIP.

All of the CECBs do have a FREE onscreen program guide except for Falcon Digitals
- so that does not mean TVGuide in any way -

It is also mentioned in the CNET video for the TR-50 that the TR-50 is using TVGuide.

To be honest TalkingRat I hope the MicroTune ture performs better in the DTVPal then it has been in the Falcon's.
Having analog passthrough is a big plus for the DTVPal as it is something other than the Philco/Magnavox.
TalkingRat you could also try TitanTV.com (http://www.titantv.com/quickguide/quickguide.aspx) for Digital TV Guide Listings that also show information for the subchannels.

bdfox18doe was the one who told us that his stations send 48 hours but FCC rules require stations to send a MINIMUM of 12 hours of fully and PROPERLY populated EPG via PSIP.

Correct. stations can send any amount of data up to about 2 weeks is practical. Of course what good is more than XX hours of EPG anyway if there are no timers for recording, and most of the current boxes are painfully slow in searching thru the guide as it is? :mad:

I remember the venerable RCA DTC100, which had one of the most full and complete EPG's. I still have two. In speaking with the designers of that box, it had seperate memories for satellite and OTA EPG, and stored the guide data for recall. It was actually useful.

You all should really be contacting Dish Network about these expiring coupons
Francie Bauer
Manager, Corporate Communications
DISH Network Corporation
EchoStar Corporation
720-514-5839
Francie.Bauer@echostar.com

Hopefully you can also get a better response from him as he didn't reassure me of anything I asked him and told me:
"Apparently we’re already working with the NTIA to make sure we’re good to go."

That or you can try your luck contacting the NTIA
- They don't seem to want to respond to me I must have been added to the CBA do not respond list -
eMail addresses for the NTIA Staff (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/otiahome/staff.htm) - NTIA staff phone numbers (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/phones.htm)

I am not sure how Echostar can help, but I would advise everyone to NOT use all of their coupons, since from what I have read, they (NTIA) are waiting to see how many did NOT use it. Then they will decide what to do.

If we all use the coupons anyway, then they assume they are doing a good job, and nothing can be further from the truth.

While I used 1 coupon, the other, I will let 'expire', since there isn't really anything out that I can get within the next 2 days that has the passthru, and is halfway decent. Then fire off a nice letter to NTIA telling them why.

Grandma isn't pleased at all over this mess.
:(

Echostar can help by speeding up delivery times and giving retailers such as FreeDTVShop more of a solid delivery date.

I agree the NTIA has made a mess and thank you for telling me you will
"fire off a nice letter to NTIA telling them why"

As much as I am interested in the DTVpal because of it's VCR timer capability, the bottom line for me, and I suspect others, is I need more than 2 of these converter boxes. So for the time being I am perfectly happy having used the first voucher for a DS box and I've made the decision to use the second voucher on an April/08 Zenith box. I'll still need a 3rd and 4th box, but now I'll be paying full price from my pocket and thus have no time pressure of an expiring voucher.

So, I can afford to wait for all of you, who have pre-ordered the DTVpal, to get it and run it through it's paces to see if it lives up to the hype . . . or not.

I agree the NTIA will not understand that people don't want to take a chance on their lack of decision. I sent my "not so nice" e-mail Sat. I told them they need to show some leadership, among other things. I attached all 3 of my "lead-on" responses from DISH to prove my point.

I just purchased a Zenith at CC, they had a stack chest high, 3 or 4 deep, from what I can see they all appeared to be Aprils.

I am either going to get another this week, the DS at Radio Shack or I'm thinking of calling provantage Tues. (probably closed Mon.) to see what they say.

I've all but given up on DISH though.

Doesn't the DS have the audio problem? That is my only concern to getting one of those. Radio Shack had no Zeniths, said there was a supply problem. I think they were all at Circuit City.

The pass-through wasn't as important for me, but the timer feature and EPG sounded nice (although I've read the EPG may not be as good as originally thought, still jury out I guess).

Plus they were no cost (or less cost) with the coupon than the others. I'll try Provantage but I'm very doubtful I'll see one with my 6/3 expiration date.

Well at least from what I've read the Zenith is a good box. DS sounds pretty good as well.

Would you guys get another Zenith or the DS? What about the audio?

Well at least from what I've read the Zenith is a good box. DS sounds pretty good as well.

Would you guys get another Zenith or the DS? What about the audio?I have a DS and nobody in my family can hear any audio problems. As has been pointed out it can depend on the quality of the TV sound system you are playing it through. I'll be getting a Zenith next, primarily because I will need 2 boxes with different remote codes so they can be in proximity to each other. The April/08 Zenith appears to be the good box. Analog pass-through is irrelevant for me since I will connect via composite & R/L audio.

Installation ..................................................Program Information
http://i23.tinypic.com/15dqwpg.jpg (http://i29.tinypic.com/2s1anww.jpg) http://i23.tinypic.com/2nrol76.jpg (http://i27.tinypic.com/2n0uax.jpg)
Main Menu - (Program Guide 1)........................LOOKS LIKE PSIP NOT TVGUIDE
http://i22.tinypic.com/2w7kdfk.jpg (http://i29.tinypic.com/whik42.jpg)
Main Menu - (Event Search 2)......................... Search, History, Options, Save, Done, Help
http://i24.tinypic.com/2d97hoj.jpg (http://i28.tinypic.com/ivesrc.jpg) http://i22.tinypic.com/5ebj1e.jpg (http://i29.tinypic.com/10rvdzk.jpg)
Main Menu - (Setup 3)...................................▼Locks, System Setup, Audio Setup, Timers?, Closed Caption
http://i23.tinypic.com/zvzo75.jpg (http://i29.tinypic.com/b3u8tz.jpg) http://i21.tinypic.com/eiqkhi.jpg (http://i27.tinypic.com/23kqgeh.jpg)
Locks? - This seems logical to me.....................to up to seven days of program listings AGAIN
http://i23.tinypic.com/wjdw11.jpg (http://i32.tinypic.com/35i99uu.jpg) http://i23.tinypic.com/20awa55.jpg (http://i30.tinypic.com/zmgjdc.jpg)
DVR Main Menu.............................................◄My Recordings, Daily Schedule, Format Disk, Cancel
http://i22.tinypic.com/2zqfvb8.jpg (http://i25.tinypic.com/2ppws5x.jpg) http://i23.tinypic.com/263ykpk.jpg (http://i28.tinypic.com/wimtsz.jpg)

Sorry for the large amount of pictures to those with Dial-Up
I was wanting to see the Timers and Program Guide
These pictures at least rule out what I was thinking the EPG was going to look like
It also looks like it will also erase any exising channels like the RCA doing a scan.

I did find a YouTube Video for the EchoStar 622 - but we know it will not be this nice. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D8cuSW_n2E&feature=related)

As much as I am interested in the DTVpal because of it's VCR timer capability, the bottom line for me, and I suspect others, is I need more than 2 of these converter boxes. So for the time being I am perfectly happy having used the first voucher for a DS box and I've made the decision to use the second voucher on an April/08 Zenith box. I'll still need a 3rd and 4th box, but now I'll be paying full price from my pocket and thus have no time pressure of an expiring voucher.

So, I can afford to wait for all of you, who have pre-ordered the DTVpal, to get it and run it through it's paces to see if it lives up to the hype . . . or not.Same thing here - except I might use one of the coupons on the Channel Master, because our E85H's IR blasters will control it, plus it has the s-video out (neither my E85H or my HX900 will control the Zenith, I was very disappointed to find out). I returned my March Zenith, but I might go grab another April one when it gets right down to the expiration date. I really liked that box a lot. It may not have everything I could ever want, but what it does it does exceptionally well - mainly picture and reception quality-wise. Built very well, too. I really can't ask for more than what I saw from a $24.00 (after tax), government subsidized ATSC tuner.

An EPG with a lot of bells and whistles doesn't make a lot of sense for the DTVPal or any other CECB for that matter, for two reasons IMO. First, an EPG is a foreign concept to anyone who has only watched analog OTA up to this point. The vast majority of people needing a CECB will most likely never use it, or be able to figure out how to use it. All they want to do is turn on the TV and flip channels until they find what they want. An EPG for most of these people is just "more buttons to push".

Second, the main purpose of a detailed EPG is to streamline the set up a timed recording, so you don't need to know the start and end time of the show. This convenience is essentially useless with a CECB because you still have to manually set up the VCR to record at the proper time.

I envision the DTVPal to have a utilitarian EPG (in line with the other CECB's) and a VCR-like timer programming feature, which is all you can expect for this price level and intended consumer.

I suppose according to visualsensation these will be called a "TV Doohickey" by the vast majority of people
and they see the Digital Transition as nothing more then what this picture suggests (http://www.santellaproductions.com/hdcartoon.jpg)

If people are going to get confused by any "TV Doohickey" remotely complicated they need to get a Falcon Digital
(Sansonic, Gridlink, etc.,) as these are the most dumbed down you can go and don't have much to them like a EPG.

Yes the Venture and Winguard also have no EPG but are more complicated than a Falcon Digital.

The DTVPal site says the event timer turns the converter box on, and to the right channel at the right time. I expect due to NTIA rules about recording devices, we will still have to manually program the VCR, using the start/stop times on the guide. If we want automated recording, the DTVPal-DVDR will not be restricted by CECB rules. [ETA: if it really does program the VCR, I'll be delighted!]

I disagree on how EPG will catch on. I wasn't too interested, until I saw all those sub-channels not included in the newspaper guide. The whole family got hooked on the simple Zenith EPG. I can look online for subchannels, but while commercials are running, if I want to know what night a program is on, or when a PBS program repeats later in the week and on what subchannel, the DTVPal EPG with longer timeline and search may come in handly.

If the DTVPal has the EPG shown above, I think anyone who gets one will love it...as just noted, it is SO much better than a newspaper, which in any case won't show all the subchannels!!!

Granted, if all want to do is surf, who needs it...but if you want to see what's on that evening (or the next evening, etc), it's great!

TitanTV's QuickGuide is also better than the newspaper as it also gives subchannels (http://www.titantv.com/quickguide/quickguide.aspx)
If you look at the EchoStar 622 YouTube Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D8cuSW_n2E&feature=related) it looks SO much better than the TR-50's interface and you can also customize the EPG.

Don't get me wrong, I hope DTVPal has everything that its rumored to have. I plan on getting 4 just because of the event timer...but at the same time there needs to be some reality injected here...This is a $40-50 box. If there was such demand for these enhanced features, they could easily charge $70+ and still possibly be eligible for the coupon program. I would be willing to pay up to $150 for something that was able to control my VCR (I'm envisioning a VCRplus like device controlled by an EPG). It sure beats spending $500-$1000 to get a decently sized digital TV and recorder that would do the same thing natively. But so far I have yet to hear of anyone willing to make an "enhanced" converter box that sells for more than $60 and coupon eligible...because there obviously isn't a big market for it. Most people who want these features just opt for cable or satellite and get a Tivo subscription.

TitanTV's QuickGuide is also better than the newspaper as it also gives subchannels (http://www.titantv.com/quickguide/quickguide.aspx)


titantv is fine if you happen to have a computer (that's ON) in the room where you watch TV

TitanTV can also be used with a printer so you don't have to have
a computer (that's ON) in the room where you watch TV

sorry for the comment above avnstf
- I do not mean to hurt your feelings. You don't have to use TitanTV if you don't want to. -

Opps, off topic... Thanks for the link Malouff. :)
I just take my Zaurus PDA into my TV room and connect to TitanTV thru WiFi.
Here's a screenshot

The DTVPal site says the event timer turns the converter box on, and to the right channel at the right time. I expect due to NTIA rules about recording devices, we will still have to manually program the VCR, using the start/stop times on the guide. If we want automated recording, the DTVPal-DVDR will not be restricted by CECB rules. [ETA: if it really does program the VCR, I'll be delighted!]

I disagree on how EPG will catch on. I wasn't too interested, until I saw all those sub-channels not included in the newspaper guide. The whole family got hooked on the simple Zenith EPG. I can look online for subchannels, but while commercials are running, if I want to know what night a program is on, or when a PBS program repeats later in the week and on what subchannel, the DTVPal EPG with longer timeline and search may come in handly.

I hope I can buy one and control it with my TiVo Series 2 DVR (with IR Blaster)!

TitanTV can also be used with a printer so you don't have to have
a computer (that's ON) in the room where you watch TV

sorry for the comment above avnstf
- I do not mean to hurt your feelings. You don't have to use TitanTV if you don't want to. -You'd use an awful lot of expensive ink that way.

I know that you could use a lot of ink and paper that way.

I don't need the guide right in front of me all.
I am comfortable looking it up on my Computer in another room and making a mental note of
what program(s) I want to watch and what channel(s) and time(s) they will be on.

You could just copy the most important stuff on paper.

Or better yet, get one of those erasable marker boards and make up a grid and fill it in, and just keep it where you could see it.

I would be willing to pay up to $150 for something that was able to control my VCR (I'm envisioning a VCRplus like device controlled by an EPG). If you are really willing to spend $150 to control a VCR, for a few dollars more you could buy a DVD recorder with it's own digital OTA tuner. Not only do you get native programming but you'll step up quite a bit in picture quality.

cummingsje, Smitty7831, and pabeader all posted they were picked as beta testers (http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/133187-help-dish-network-beta-test-post1349791.html#post1349791)
pabeader has not posted anything official but has very strongly hinted the DTVPal is using PSIP like the other converter boxes.
think of it this way. how many of the people that this box is intended for will know the difference between the different guides?
most of them will be befuddled with the channel numbers.

up to seven days means it could be less, right?
plus, a station could elect to transmit more then 12 hours, right?

Event Timers will be more useless to us using PSIP vs TVGuide because most stations don't send data for the full 7-days

bdfox18doe agrees most of the current boxes are painfully slow in searching thru the guide as it is so why should stations send more then xx hours. He also told us that the FCC rules require stations to send a MINIMUM of 12 hours of fully and PROPERLY populated EPG via PSIP and his stations send 48 hours.

So even with his 48 hours that is just 2 days you are given for the Event Timer unless that function is not tied to the EPG.

With most of these extended EPG converter boxes running slow with more guide data
it also does not sound smart for stations to transmit the full 7 days for these CECBs.

bdfox18doe how much memory does 48 hours of PSIP data from one station take?
There are probably a lot of things not being shown to a user in this data.
I am thinking it is like a IP packet with headers that contain error correction, time to live, etc.,

Not all boxes list the memory but we have seen things like:
Flash Memory 2 MB...................Memory 32 MB - CoShip (LG SoC based)
Flash Memory 16Mb (still 2MB)....Memory 256Mb (still 32MB) - Avion (ST Microelectronics SoC based)
Flash Memory 2 MB...................Memory 16 MB - AccessHD (Zoran SoC based)
Flash Memory 512KB (0.5MB)......Memory 16 MB - Tatung (? SoC based)

I have been told Zenith/Insignia/MicroProse are trying to save money buy using a SIMPLE Now/Next

I keep debating that they are saving the CPU and MEMORY for the Converters Primary task to convert the digital signal into a analog format that also requires this shared Memory and CPU resources.

Help me here guys what good is a PSIP Timer?
I know what you are going to say, for your favorite program that comes on daily, weekly, etc.,
If it is your favorite program you would most likely already be watching it and not need the timer in the first place.

You will next say to remind you that a program(s) is coming on in this 48 hour window using bdfox18doe's station.
I don't have that bad of a memory to forget a program(s) is coming on within 48 hours.

You could also argue for your VCR - I doubt most Americans would know how to sync both the VCR and DTVPal
Those that do will only have this xx hour window to know about the event.
The DTVPal.com also does not say anything about turning it's self off after the event.
I guess it might be good for a short trip but come on you could just as well have used any other CECB for the trip.

It is looking like this event features is nothing more then a cheap gimmick.

Programming search
Now depending on how good this program search was designed might be another feature but
I am already starting to think will be very slow and not a very useful feature except when and if you don't have any Internet access.

Channel Add/Installation
If you guys looked at my Installation picture you would have noticed.
Any existing channels will be replaced when you select 'Continue'
This doesn't sound very useful unlike some other CECB's that let you add channels with each additional scan.

I have been hoping the TVPal 'event timer' and/or other features will work with my 2nd TiVo. It is a TiVo series 2, with IR Blaster, that I hope to use its 'Manual Recording' feature to 'control' the CECB (TvPal?).

Let's just say there is more than one way to implement a timer. For example, many of Echostar's DBS recievers have a VCR timer feature where you enter "Channel, start time, duration" and they automatically tune to it.

Let's just say there is more than one way to implement a timer. For example, many of Echostar's DBS recievers have a VCR timer feature where you enter "Channel, start time, duration" and they automatically tune to it.

That sounds like an "event timer" to me, which is all that's been listed as one of the features for this box. If that's all it does, I'll be happy.

Hi all,

I just called Provantage, and the representative told me they didn't take pre-orders, and they said it has been a couple of weeks since they took the last order. :(

Did anybody have the same experience? Any info in how to successfully pre-order this box?

Hi all,

I just called Provantage, and the representative told me they didn't take pre-orders, and they said it has been a couple of weeks since they took the last order. :(

Did anybody have the same experience? Any info in how to successfully pre-order this box?

try here: http://www.freedtvshop.com/

try here: http://www.freedtvshop.com/

Hi Whidbey,

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, my coupon will expire tomorrow (05/28/2008). :(

I used my other coupon for Zenith DTT900 (April 2008 build) and I'm happy with it, but I guess I can be happier with TR-40.

Any suggestion, which one I should get for my tomorrow-expired-coupon?
Microprose MPI-500? Or another DTT900?

Thanks guys! :)

Mine expire 6/3, I'm done with the Dish unit. I was thinking about calling provantage today, but you've already done that, so why waste my time. I'd get the same answer you did.

From the sounds of it they weren't following the correct process for pre-orders anyway.

I got the Zenith (April unit) on Sunday, works great, so I'll get my second one at C.C. this week. Spend $23 on each, but these things have the best tuners I've seen on any ATSC device (TVs, stand-alone tuners for PCs).

I pre-ordered two of these DTVPals yesterday from freedtvshop.com with my two $40 government coupons. This seems to be the best deal on these boxes at the moment. My total out-of-pocket cost for the two boxes (including $9.95 shipping for two) was $14.95.

BTW, has anyone noticed that Solid Signal is currently showing an MSRP on these boxes of $59.99? I've read through this entire thread and did not see this "new" MSRP mentioned. From what I have read here and elsewhere the MSRP was supposed to be $40 (or thereabouts). Does anyone have any further information about this new pricing point for this box or the accuracy of the information posted at Solid Signal?

Any suggestion, which one I should get for my tomorrow-expired-coupon?
Microprose MPI-500? Or another DTT900?

I'd get whichever box you can get your hands on by tomorrow, so your coupon doesn't go to waste. :) If your happy with the DTT900, get a second one.

Mine expire 6/3, I'm done with the Dish unit. I was thinking about calling provantage today, but you've already done that, so why waste my time. I'd get the same answer you did.

From the sounds of it they weren't following the correct process for pre-orders anyway.

I got the Zenith (April unit) on Sunday, works great, so I'll get my second one at C.C. this week. Spend $23 on each, but these things have the best tuners I've seen on any ATSC device (TVs, stand-alone tuners for PCs).

Hi jpconard,

Just give it a shot, who knows there is a last minute change. The wait time is short, 3 - 5 minutes.

Btw, what do you think, which tuner is better? DTT900's or TR-40's?

trp, Solid Signal has increased the price twice. They started at $40, you save $0. They changed price to ~$42, you save -$2, haha. Then they changed MSRP to $60 and increased price to $49, you "save" $11. Mosquito has told us the margin is extremely thin, and a shop owner online said he was quoted $40/box, plus shipping. It sure sounds like a wholesale price change.

I doubt the MSRP of $59.99
Claude Greiner from dishstore who will not accept coupons said he was told the cost to the dealers on these things is $39.99, plus they have to pay a few dollars to ship these from Echostar.

If the Microprose MPI-500PT* is not on the NTIA list by tomorrow you will have to get another DTT900 or whatever box you would like that is available and on the list.

Let's just say there is more than one way to implement a timer. For example, many of Echostar's DBS recievers have a VCR timer feature where you enter "Channel, start time, duration" and they automatically tune to it.That is essentially a manual timer, which it may very well be. In my reading of these posts there seems to have been tacit assumption that because the DTVpal is spec'd to have both EPG and VCR timer, they are therefore linked to be able to set the timer from the EPG. I have seen nothing in the limited print available to suggest that. Has somebody actually seen that the timer should be set via the EPG or is it just assumption.

but at the same time there needs to be some reality injected here...This is a $40-50 box. If there was such demand for these enhanced features, they could easily charge $70+ and still possibly be eligible for the coupon program.

The Echostar President/spokesman guy already said they are taking a loss on these boxes. They say it's to be the first business to "step up" and help bring in the digital TV age. Obviously, extra publicity can come with such a thing, as noted by it being the most talked about box both on the internets and off (after internet people tell their non-internet friends to wait for it). So it looks like a win-win for everybody, and kudos to Echostar.

The only reason I haven't pre-ordered any yet is because I still haven't seen any review say the picture actually looks good. I wouldn't think it would look as bad as a lot of the Magnavox comments say those look, but who knows without actual proof. A timer and nicer EPG don't make up for a lousy picture.

Is freedtvshop.com safe site? Has anyone ordered from it before?

iryu,


Btw, what do you think, which tuner is better? DTT900's or TR-40's?

I wouldn't know, I have read on this site (right or wrong, not sure), the Zenith uses the LG 6th generation tuner and that it slightly outperforms the DS. I don't think anybody knows about the TR-40 yet. I would think it would be hard-pressed to out perform the Zenith, maybe match it, but I'm doubting that as well.

I've owned (gave one away) 3 PC ATSC tuners (DVICO usb, Avermedia A180, and Aver USB portable). The Dvico is the best and when I had trouble pulling the Nascar race Sunday (sometimes trees & wind cause some issues and require antenna adjustment), I plugged in the new Zenith box without touching the antenna placement and it pulled it no problem. I've heard others say the Zenith outperforms their TVs (with ATSC tuners) as well.

I connected it to the TV that will use it in sons bedroom to rabbit hears/ Uhf loop and it scanned more stations than I have ever seen scanned by any of my other ATSC tuners. Once it scanned 14, then back to 12 or 13. Some were duplicate networks though.

Others here may be able to give better info.

Is freedtvshop.com safe site? Has anyone ordered from it before?

I got my Insignia through freedtvshop. John was very helpful and knowledgable. Delivery was prompt. Go for it!

Has somebody actually seen that the timer should be set via the EPG or is it just assumption.As far as I know, it's an assumption.

Maybe if these "beta testers" on the satellite forums ever get their units, we can find out for sure.

They can't talk about it. I'm sure they got their units a while ago.

I sure hope the DTVpal's tuner is = to the zenith/insignia. My insignia if far better than my 2007 Sony TV and Dish VIP622. I live in a difficult spot about 40 miles from the transmitters and the insignia handles multipath much better than the other 2 tuners.

NONE OF THESE IMAGES ARE FROM THE DTVPal
They just show how Dish Network has implemented them in the DVR-921

Timer Date Set.............................................Timer Edit
http://i26.tinypic.com/2rqdbvd.jpg (http://www.dbstalk.com/images/921/921_timer_edit_screen-2.jpg) http://i31.tinypic.com/flbofp.jpg (http://www.dbstalk.com/images/921/921_timer_edit_screen-1.jpg)
Timer Conflict...............................................Confl ict Message
http://i28.tinypic.com/1zpsdi9.jpg (http://www.dbstalk.com/images/921/triple_conflict_1.jpg) http://i28.tinypic.com/2l95gxu.jpg (http://www.dbstalk.com/images/921/triple_conflict_2.jpg)
Maximum Timers............................................EPG (no TVGuide logo)
http://i28.tinypic.com/2ujte9s.jpg (http://www.dbstalk.com/images/921/maxtimers.jpg) http://i32.tinypic.com/2mcg9b5.jpg (http://www.dbstalk.com/images/921/921_guide_rec_2HD.jpg)
Timer Sorting................................................Timer Management
http://i25.tinypic.com/ouxr1k.jpg (http://www.dbstalk.com/images/921/921_timer_sort_screen.jpg) http://i29.tinypic.com/10i8let.jpg (http://www.dbstalk.com/images/921/921_timer_management_screen.jpg)

About the EPG
Extended Electronic Program Guide (EPG) features 7 days of programming stored onto the hard drive for quick and easy access to program-listing information.
I don't see to up to seven days
I also don't know if this is a TVGuide or PSIP driven EPG as there is no TVGuide Logo.

So I, like everybody else, want one of the TR40/DTVpal boxes. I held off preordering and now it looks like the window has passed. My coupon expires June 6th. Is there any chance I could go to Radio Shack or another retailer, buy another converter box, and then when the DTVpal box comes in, exchange the box I bought for that one? Does anybody know what the exchange policies on the boxes are and/or what retailers will have the DTVpal boxes in stock?

About the EPG

I don't see to up to seven days
I also don't know if this is a TVGuide or PSIP driven EPG as there is no TVGuide Logo.

Malouff - PSIP driven guides with event timers do have a weakness. Not all stations clocks and show start / end times are exactly in sync. So, you can have a conflict even when there does not appear to be one. This happens all the time with my Samsung DTB-H260F, which has a scheduler. So, hopefully the DTV Pal will at least have an option for a manual timer (similar to a VCR) rather than a "click on the show" type. Of course, if the guide is TVGOS driven, it should work fine, but I have my doubts this box will have that since none of the released info says it does.

Of course, if the guide is TVGOS driven, it should work fine, but I have my doubts this box will have that since none of the released info says it does.


Yep.. IIRC, every device that has TVGOS has the logo on the front of it due to the liscensing agreement.

I don't think the timer will be as fancy as the DVR-921 Timers I posted above.

That's right I said timer as in for a SINGLE EVENT
Event timer
Set a timer to turn your DTVPal on and tuned to the desired channel before your favorite show starts playing
The DTVPal has no plural timers we are all building the DTVPal into something it isn't.
I see this timer as very simple with two to three options to set. The Channel
The Start Time - you don't really need a stop time this is not a recording device and it saves memory
OPTIONAL - a repeat function
Having a single event timer is also very strong evidence that the DTVPal
is not using the TVGuide System and is using PSIP

If we want the possibility to have more events from a CECB then we should be thinking of using the Tivax STB-T9 and a serial cable.

Why does the fact it only does channel, time, duration limit the DTVPal to a single timer ? RIddle me this - isn't this the same thing that VCRs did for so many years, yet they had up to 8 "timers" ?

Dish DBS receivers that have VCR timers also have "more than 1 timer" as well - do you really think Dish would go backwards on this ?

I think all the friggin speculation needs to stop and just wait until someone gets thier hands on a box. You'd think we're discussing the second coming here.. It's a freakin $40 coupon box for goodness sake. :rolleyes:

NONE OF THESE IMAGES ARE FROM THE DTVPal
They just show how Dish Network has implemented them in the DVR-921

http://i29.tinypic.com/10i8let.jpg (http://www.dbstalk.com/images/921/921_timer_management_screen.jpg)

About the EPG

I don't see to up to seven days
I also don't know if this is a TVGuide or PSIP driven EPG as there is no TVGuide Logo.
This is much easier on the eyes than the TVGO. Better colors and no friggin' ads. Sign me up for one!

I have never seen a VCR that advertised a "event timer" - Singular
VCRs I thought were all advertised as having "timers" - Plural

I don't even think the Dish Receivers that you are referring to were ever advertised as having a "event timer"
it was most likely also advertised as "timers"

Unless you had a VCR Plus+ that used GemStar's TVGuide codes all VCRs had to be set using manual timers

All this "friggin speculation" was started when we first heard of the TR-40 and most news was all
rumour/speculation nothing much offical that anyone payed close attention to.

I have been trying to stop the "friggin speculation" now that we have a official site with offical specifications and features for the DTVPal.

Yes in this picture (http://www.slingcommunity.com/imagelib/contentitem/26454/f0f219158e118e83--46e15903-1175b912714--3cc3983174847.jpg) the TR-40 was listed as having VCR timers
Last I checked it is no longer the TR-40 and it is no longer listed as having VCR timers
but is now the DTVPal and listed as having a "event timer"

I would think that the offical DTVPal site would be the best source for any DTVPal information to end the "friggin speculations" and get the offical facts.
I will therefore accept what Dish Network has posted in these features.

Until one of us gets a actual product and can say I was wrong and need to owe you guys an apology, I will quit posting anything about the DTVPal.

Until one of us gets a actual product and can say I was wrong and need to owe you guys an apology,

Relax Malouff, not intended at you..And hopefully you won't need to do so.

But I personally can't wait to see those who will bash this $40 coupon box if (or dare I say when) it doesn't live up to the hype and speculation in this thread. At least I'm basing that on how most all of the other "coupon" boxes have been bashed by some here who want a Cadillac for the price of a Yugo.

Thanks bdfox18doe for the encouragement and agree I was getting people very riled up in this thread.

I am also going to start another speculation that has no proof/merit
then run for the hills since you pulled me back in.
I can see why Dish Network did not release this box for the "early bird" adopters.
There were less coupons in circulation and it didn't live up to the hype it would have been reported fast and
the DTVPal would have become nothing more than a footnote unlike what it is now.

By releasing in June there will be lots of coupons in circulation and by holding off they have built up a lot of curiosity and intrigue from potential buyers.

I am sure they will sell all of there first shipments by doing this.
Their real worry is once the reviews start pouring in.

bdfox18doe (Bob) for my other personal speculation regarding the CECBs memory and EPG performance.
I am of course referring to the amount of memory required to contain all the PSIP data for each station and display it.
Can you tell me if it has any merit?

Having a single event timer is also very strong evidence that the DTVPal is not using the TVGuide System and is using PSIP


My first digital receiver, 5 years ago, was a Samsung on which I could schedule multiple recording events, and IT USED THE PSIP DATA (which was unfortunate, due to conflicts that would arise because different stations did not have a consistent time signal)...

Frankly, I don't think we know what kind of EPG this unit will use, nor is there any evidence that the kind it uses is related to how many "events" one can schedule.

My VCR manual says "the timer" allows me to schedule up to 6 "programs." I don't think the "s" or lack of it is significant. Few people use English with precision these days. Anyway, the E* letter requesting the end of beta testers said they'd be checking "timers."

I would think that the offical DTVPal site would be the best source for any DTVPal information to end the "friggin speculations" and get the offical facts.
I will therefore accept what Dish Network has posted in these features.It seems the feature list is like a page from the Bible -- the reader is free to interpret what is written however they may choose to.

I see nothing in saying a unit has an "event timer" (singular) that precludes it's being able to schedule multiple events via that timer.

I also don't know if this is a TVGuide or PSIP driven EPG as there is no TVGuide Logo.Just for the record, there is one on my Dish 322 tuner's guide.

All this "friggin speculation" was started when we first heard of the TR-40 and most news was all
rumour/speculation nothing much offical that anyone payed close attention to.

I have been trying to stop the "friggin speculation" now that we have a official site with offical specifications and features for the DTVPal.These specifications are still not all that clear, so what you're doing is also "friggin' speculation" by your interpretations of it. Let it go already. Just relax until the box comes out.

bdfox18doe (Bob) for my other personal speculation regarding the CECBs memory and EPG performance.I am of course referring to the amount of memory required to contain all the PSIP data for each station and display it.Can you tell me if it has any merit?

I don't think the STB's memory capacity would have any effect on reception,as most of that is done in the tuner can.

The most complete implementation of PSIP based EPG I have seen was in the venerable RCA DTC-100. However, it isn;t much good these days as it does not handle dynamic PSIP and the EIT/ETT table shifts that occur, and flashes to black during table shifts.I saw that unit when it was a pile of PCB's in the back of a van during CEMA/USSB antenna testing in 1997. The designers told me it had seperate memories for satellite and OTA, and took a LOT of memory to handle the EPG for both for all channels. So, I suspect the poor implementation of EPG in these "cheeseboxes" is partially due to a memory cost savings. And yes,that could affect the response and performance of the box.

We as broadcasters are leaglly required do do full and complete EPG for 12 hours, and the FCC is mulling having us make it accurate to real time for program run overs, which is a nightmare. And yes, I know there are some slacker broadcasters out there that are non-compliant andneed to get their act together.
But, I think if we are required to do it properly then the mfg's should be too..but in reality I doubt the FCC has the legal authority to do so.

I've worked with one mfg on develeopment of their PSIP generator for a long time, and have a lot of time and effort involved in making it work properly.
So I have no sympathy for those broadcasters who are too lazy to do so, and annoyed by receiver mfg's who shortchange the consumer in this area.

So I, like everybody else, want one of the TR40/DTVpal boxes. I held off preordering and now it looks like the window has passed. My coupon expires June 6th. Is there any chance I could go to Radio Shack or another retailer, buy another converter box, and then when the DTVpal box comes in, exchange the box I bought for that one? Does anybody know what the exchange policies on the boxes are and/or what retailers will have the DTVpal boxes in stock?

Ditto. Anyone know?

I don't believe they have said where these would be sold, or when. The online retailers saying the week of June 16 was a surprise. DTVPal.com says end of June, but doesn't say where, other than their online site. The original Jan. press release talked about the possibility of distributing through Dish and Sling stores, but I have seen nothing more. Your best bet, given the tight timing, would be to have a neighbor order more coupons for you.

Solidsignal raised the price again, now it's $52.

I don't think the STB's memory capacity would have any effect on reception,as most of that is done in the tuner can.

The most complete implementation of PSIP based EPG I have seen was in the venerable RCA DTC-100. However, it isn;t much good these days as it does not handle dynamic PSIP and the EIT/ETT table shifts that occur, and flashes to black during table shifts.I saw that unit when it was a pile of PCB's in the back of a van during CEMA/USSB antenna testing in 1997. The designers told me it had seperate memories for satellite and OTA, and took a LOT of memory to handle the EPG for both for all channels. So, I suspect the poor implementation of EPG in these "cheeseboxes" is partially due to a memory cost savings. And yes,that could affect the response and performance of the box.

We as broadcasters are leaglly required do do full and complete EPG for 12 hours, and the FCC is mulling having us make it accurate to real time for program run overs, which is a nightmare. And yes, I know there are some slacker broadcasters out there that are non-compliant andneed to get their act together.
But, I think if we are required to do it properly then the mfg's should be too..but in reality I doubt the FCC has the legal authority to do so.

I've worked with one mfg on develeopment of their PSIP generator for a long time, and have a lot of time and effort involved in making it work properly.
So I have no sympathy for those broadcasters who are too lazy to do so, and annoyed by receiver mfg's who shortchange the consumer in this area.

Memory is "a whole lot cheaper" today than it was in 1997.

Looking at the specifications for these CECBs it certainly doesn't look like they spent very much on memory but maybe having more would have been overkill.
Not all boxes list the memory but we have seen things like:
Flash Memory 2 MB...................Memory 32 MB - CoShip (LG SoC based)
Flash Memory 16Mb (still 2MB)....Memory 256Mb (still 32MB) - Avion (ST Microelectronics SoC based)
Flash Memory 2 MB...................Memory 16 MB - AccessHD (Zoran SoC based)
Flash Memory 512KB (0.5MB)......Memory 16 MB - Tatung (? SoC based)I would think that the System on Chip (SoC) is what does the decoding of the DTV signal and extracts the PSIP information.
Like any processor it has a limited cache and uses Memory to store then information.

All I was saying was is that 32MB or 16MB does not seem like a lot to store the PSIP information (I don't know how large they typically range)
and also provide a buffer to decode the DTV signal (I don't know if it needs a buffer but sounds logical to me).

I have heard that if you press guide that you only see the current channel but if you flip channels you can see the information for both channels as the PSIP data for both channels was downloaded by viewing both channels.

This sounds like if the PSIP guide information is getting saved to Memory to me and not being decoded every time you press the guide button.

These are again just my personal speculations regarding performance when a extended electronic program guide is used
versus the simplistic Now/Next EPG used by Zenith, Insignia, and MicroProse.

I was told they used a Now/Next because more EPG data tends to slow the box down.

The original Jan. press release talked about the possibility of distributing through Dish and Sling stores, but I have seen nothing more.

Which of these Dish or Sling stores would be on the NTIA approved list? A 50-mile radius search from my zip produced a list of 13 which were all either WalMart, RadioShack, or Sears. With the nearest urban community 65 miles away, the list expands 10x, adding BestBuy and CircuitCity to the big boxes. The big boxes seem have already committed to a product line-up. So who is left to sell the DTVPal?

Memory is "a whole lot cheaper" today than it was in 1997.

Yep.. but when you're trying to make a box as cheaply as possible..cutting maybe what.. 32 cents??? for memory here and 4 cents there..across 100,000units it adds up.

All I was saying was is that 32MB or 16MB does not seem like a lot to store the PSIP information (I don't know how large they typically range) .

PSIP data is sent to me as an XML file containing 7 days data at a time.
For WCCB here, the file size for analog and 3 digital channels is 412k. Not all of that data gets pushed to the receivers, and various receivers don't read or store all of the data. There are 9 stations here. Assuming worst case back of napkin, that's about 3.5 mb of information for 7 days EPG.

Which of these Dish or Sling stores would be on the NTIA approved list? A 50-mile radius search from my zip produced a list of 13 which were all either WalMart, RadioShack, or Sears. With the nearest urban community 65 miles away, the list expands 10x, adding BestBuy and CircuitCity to the big boxes. The big boxes seem have already committed to a product line-up. So who is left to sell the DTVPal?

We don't know what commitments stores have made, I think they started with the few boxes actually being made. I saw a reminder for stores to keep the list of brands they sell current with the NTIA. SlingMedia has a partners list online, except for RS, I saw the stores you mention. It's speculation about what store will carry it, when they get it in stock, especially with E* starting out with online retailers. I hope you're buying a product you can live with, and not counting on that exchange plan.

With all the controversy over number of days for the EPG and does it have a timer or timers. note the following from Echostar's introductory release dated Jan 7, 2008:

"....Other features include up to a seven-day electronic programming guide (EPG), program search, parental locks and VCR auto-tune timers.... "

For the full release see their financial website:

http://sats.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=284881

BobOnTampaBay

That's meaningless at this point - that's no longer the same unit and specs are always subject to change since the unit is not even out yet. Besides, the definition of timers and their implementation/usefulness is very subjective. As was mentioned, lets just wait till the thing actually comes out to see what it does.

According to the mgr. at the Burnsville "Ultimate Electronics" they will carry the TR-40, but not the TR-50. Not sure about other stores.I just spoke with the store manager of my local B&M Ultimate Electronics (http://www.ultimateelectronics.com/) and he confirmed that he heard that the "EchoStar/Dish Converter Boxes" would be arriving in store in "a week or two." He suggested calling back on Friday evenings after the weekly truck had been unloaded. He did not know the model number, but I informed him that it could only be the DTVPal or the EchoStar TR-40. He agreed that there was only one model made by EchoStar/Dish.

Ultimate Electronics is a chain of consumer electronics stores in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nevada, New Mexico, and Oklahoma.

Avio

I made an order for the box through online posted here. My question is what if later on they don't have it and the day on the card already expired?

I made an order for the box through online posted here. My question is what if later on they don't have it and the day on the card already expired?

That is a good question...there has been some reference here or elsewhere to a system where suppliers report the card orders with a delay - stated as up to 60 days - if this is true, it is POSSIBLE, I suppose that a supplier who doesn't come up with the box MIGHT simply cancel your card number from their list and let you know....pure speculation, of course, but it seems like it would work.

(I think that ordinarily, once the card is used, that's it, but this might provide a way out...)

I just spoke with the store manager of my local B&M Ultimate Electronics (http://www.ultimateelectronics.com/) and he confirmed that he heard that the "EchoStar/Dish Converter Boxes" would be arriving in store in "a week or two." He suggested calling back on Friday evenings after the weekly truck had been unloaded. He did not know the model number, but I informed him that it could only be the DTVPal or the EchoStar TR-40. He agreed that there was only one model made by EchoStar/Dish.

Ultimate Electronics is a chain of consumer electronics stores in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nevada, New Mexico, and Oklahoma.

Avio
Thanks for the store locations. I wasn't sure were else they were located. I just checked UE yesterday and was told "mid to late June". Again he said they would only carry the TR-40, not the TR-50:(
He also said it's still "planned" to sell at $39.99 or Free(less tax) w/coupon.

I wanted to put an end to all this TVGOS speculation. So, a week ago I emailed Francie Bauer and simply asked her, "Will the DTVPal use PSIP, or Gemstar's TVGuide solution"? She said she'd have to ask the Engineers in London. Today she got back to me and said the DTVPal uses a PSIP guide.

So there you have it folks, Malouff was right. Somehow we've slowly twisted the DTVPal into something it never was...

The Dish Network DTVPal is now found on the NTIA listing of converter boxes:
https://www.ntiadtv.gov/cecb_list.cfm This is an eagerly awaited CECB - it was supposed to be coming out in June. I might even buy one since I'm eager to get a unit with S-video and the other features for timer recording.

I think you'd be disappointed -- it doesn't have S Video.

I think you'd be disappointed -- it doesn't have S Video. You are right. So there are more differences between the earlier, much-touted TR-40 and the DTVPal than I had thought! There is analog pass-through but no more S-Video.

DTVPal (http://dtvpal.com/) product description.

Thanks for the store locations. I wasn't sure were else they were located. I just checked UE yesterday and was told "mid to late June". Again he said they would only carry the TR-40, not the TR-50:(
He also said it's still "planned" to sell at $39.99 or Free(less tax) w/coupon.

as for the TR-50...since it won't be available for many moons (if ever) I doubt any individual store would know whether they will carry it...who did you check with?

not that I think most chains would carry the tr-50 when/if it appears...dish may hold it relatively close to the vest (as distinguished from the former tr-40, which has a very broad comsumer market...)

I wanted to put an end to all this TVGOS speculation. So, a week ago I emailed Francie Bauer and simply asked her, "Will the DTVPal use PSIP, or Gemstar's TVGuide solution"? She said she'd have to ask the Engineers in London. Today she got back to me and said the DTVPal uses a PSIP guide.

So there you have it folks, Malouff was right. Somehow we've slowly twisted the DTVPal into something it never was...

Shocking.

I wanted to put an end to all this TVGOS speculation. So, a week ago I emailed Francie Bauer and simply asked her, "Will the DTVPal use PSIP, or Gemstar's TVGuide solution"? She said she'd have to ask the Engineers in London. Today she got back to me and said the DTVPal uses a PSIP guide.

So there you have it folks, Malouff was right. Somehow we've slowly twisted the DTVPal into something it never was...

so now the question is how long the guide covers...now/next or longer?

as for why the Gemstar guide came up, probably because it's part of Dish and because it sounded like the TR-50 would use Gemstar AND the two units were linked in the January publicity from Echostar....

so now the question is how long the guide covers...now/next or longer?Since it's supposed to have an event timer, surely it must be longer than now/next.  Otherwise the event timer will be of almost no usefulness at all.

Since it's supposed to have an event timer, surely it must be longer than now/next. Otherwise the event timer will be of almost no usefulness at all.

the timers could be manual - set date, times, channel

I know that Dish STBs tend to use chips from either ST Micro or Broadcom...and they have their software to run on top of both.

I am sure there are some STB experts from the Dish STB forums, but my guess is that the most liklely options are:

TR-40=DTVPal: ST 7107 (like some other CECBs) or Broadcom 3543
TR-50=????: Not a CECB but adds in DVR: ST7110 or Broadcom ????

Other CECBs use ST 7107 and Broadcom 3543. Key reason to buy DTVPal will likely be software, size, price, pass-thru.

Any other thoughts along these lines?

the timers could be manual - set date, times, channelYou could well be right, Avnstf.  The term "event timer" gave me the impression that it could be set by selecting a program or series from the guide, though of course manual setting as you described would still be needed along with it.  If it's manual only, well, that works too.

Didn't say anything re TVGOS EPG....more vaporware....

mods - merge threads

I wanted to put an end to all this TVGOS speculation. So, a week ago I emailed Francie Bauer and simply asked her, "Will the DTVPal use PSIP, or Gemstar's TVGuide solution"? She said she'd have to ask the Engineers in London. Today she got back to me and said the DTVPal uses a PSIP guide.

So there you have it folks, Malouff was right. Somehow we've slowly twisted the DTVPal into something it never was...

In retrospect this should have been obvious - how could they put something that complex into the lowest cost CECB?:cool:

In retrospect this should have been obvious - how could they put something that complex into the lowest cost CECB?:cool:

well, one way would be to have a chip they already manufacture in bulk where they use only part of its capabilities - this would make sense if the marginal cost of making additional chips is comparable to the cost of developing a new simpler one...not that I know anything about chip costs...

(of course that's why they MIGHT be developing a full OTA HD DVR (the TR-50) at a moderate cost (compared with other high-def recorders) because they already have one for their satellite service that does basically the same thing for satellite AND OTA signals)

as for the TR-50...since it won't be available for many moons (if ever) I doubt any individual store would know whether they will carry it...who did you check with?

I talked to the head manager at the store. Although you're correct things could change. I'd just prefer to buy the TR-50 locally. Not to big on mail order.
On the guide thing if the TR-40 just uses PCIP the only real option for scheduling will be a manual programmer, which I'm OK with but I know others were hoping for TVGOS. In my area PCIP goes from several hours to about 4 days out. This is on a Vizio TV's PCIP guide. Other guides like on the CM and DS CECB only go out 24-30 hours.

In retrospect this should have been obvious - how could they put something that complex into the lowest cost CECB?:cool:

Bummer! Unless the stations get serious about updating PSIP data we'll just see a nice EPG grid containing "DTV PROGRAM" in most slots. At least that was my experience with a Samsung STB a year or so ago.

Yes, but with the digital transition, millions more viewers are discovering EPG. It does so much more than my analog tv's "info" button. Subchannels are not listed in the newspaper, and I don't want to have to go to the computer to see what's on tonight or tomorrow. By next Feb, the pool of viewers looking at EPG listings will be millions bigger. Then it will make sense to put more effort into that data.

Yes, but with the digital transition, millions more viewers are discovering EPG. It does so much more than my analog tv's "info" button. Subchannels are not listed in the newspaper, and I don't want to have to go to the computer to see what's on tonight or tomorrow. By next Feb, the pool of viewers looking at EPG listings will be millions bigger. Then it will make sense to put more effort into that data.

good point!

the timers could be manual - set date, times, channel

I hope so. Never liked/trusted a "guide dependant" timer.

Just did a Google news scan for DTVpal and came up with this guy who appears to have a genuine one in his possession:

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-06/hands-on-with-dtvpal/

Here's his shot of the EPG:

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/dtvpal2.jpg

That looks sweet. :)