Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter [Text View] - Page 27

kenavs

09-14-09, 02:21 AM

Hi,

I have a Sony DHG-HDD250 and since the digital switch over I cannot get my TVGuide programing. I was told I need to use the DTVPal converter box for couple of nights to get the channel lineup and after that I should be fine.

Would anyone be willing to lend me the DTVPal for 2 or 3 days?

I am in San Francisco and would be happy to pick up the DTVPal and bring it back at your connivence.

Thanks in advance.
Pepe
What the person probably meant was that after the DTVpal was hooked up to your TV for a couple of days, the TV would BEGIN to display guide information, but that does not mean you can just borrow one. The TV needs continuous access to a unit that can provide the analog version of the guide data that the TV needs. If the guide data is important to you, you need to buy a DTVpal or TR40 or find someone willing to give one to you permanently.

phildaant

09-14-09, 06:32 AM

I wasn't aware any of the Pals turned themselves off at the end of a scheduled event.

Once they've reached the end of whatever automatic shutoff time you have set, yes, but not at the end of a scheduled event (recording).Oh, I thought the end time for each schedule was to turn off DTV Pal. So, what was the point of having the end time then? I must be missing something. I thought its scheduler act like a recorder.

I did notice my DTV Pal was off after 2:00 AM, and I assume that was from the autosleep (default 4 hours).

lgodave

09-14-09, 10:13 AM

Probably for resolving Conflicts between other timers.

Timer 1 will stay on Channel XX for 1 hour before it's free to switch to another.

ucmerick

09-14-09, 10:59 AM

correction - i said that the PAL blindly finds a station... i meant the panny... the panny discovers TVGOS data and clock on RF channel 3 and proceeds to sync things up... its next job is to discover a lineup... once it discovers a lineup, the panny will switch to whatever the ' lineup channel ' is, so it needs to be updated to reflect the same thing as where it originally found the early stuff..

rg

With pal TVGOS support, the pal is invisible to the panny. All the panny knows with the cable setup is the 3-digit channel format to tune 'cable' (now digital) channels. It doesn't know any difference between the old analog broadcast signal or the 'new' analog pass-through input signal from the pal. I pass the signal to the panny on L3 but all it is concerned with initially is channel 121 (host) from the setup and subsequently, all the channels that come through on the lineup from the host channel, in my case, (121), 141, 151, 171, 191, 211, 231, 281, 381 and 501(?). Only ten channels appear to be supported (to date). Without cable support, the panny will look for a channel that does not exist, one in the old two-digit format. And even if it found 28 (old analog TVGOS host in LA), it is no longer sending the information. So now it needs to be told the new host. It appears that you remap the new lineup to the old channels, i.e., the new host channel is mapped to the old host channel within the panny so it does 'find' the new digital host on the old analog (default) host channel. This isn't necessary with the method I used.

regards

ebo

09-14-09, 01:31 PM

I have a Sony DHG-HDD250 and since the digital switch over I cannot get my TVGuide programing. I was told I need to use the DTVPal converter box for couple of nights to get the channel lineup and after that I should be fine.I don't have a Sony DVR so I don't keep up with the details, but it's my understanding that it can extract the digital form of guide data directly and does not need it converted to analog. It may need some persuasion and maybe a firmware update. Search the Sony DHG-HDD250/500: Official Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711) on AVSForum for info on getting digital TVGOS to work.

Edit: There is a firmware update required. Get it here (http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu-download.pl?upd_id=4542&mdl=DHGHDD250).

seattlemark

09-14-09, 02:33 PM

ciaopepe

09-15-09, 12:13 AM

I don't have a Sony DVR so I don't keep up with the details, but it's my understanding that it can extract the digital form of guide data directly and does not need it converted to analog. It may need some persuasion and maybe a firmware update. Search the Sony DHG-HDD250/500: Official Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711) on AVSForum for info on getting digital TVGOS to work.

Edit: There is a firmware update required. Get it here (http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu-download.pl?upd_id=4542&mdl=DHGHDD250).

Thank you for the info. I have done the upgrade, and I am following the Sony thread. All I need is to get the initial channel lineup. After that the Sony upgrade will work.

Thanks.

ciaopepe

09-15-09, 12:16 AM

What the person probably meant was that after the DTVpal was hooked up to your TV for a couple of days, the TV would BEGIN to display guide information, but that does not mean you can just borrow one. The TV needs continuous access to a unit that can provide the analog version of the guide data that the TV needs. If the guide data is important to you, you need to buy a DTVpal or TR40 or find someone willing to give one to you permanently.

Thanks for your help. The Sony upgrade can get the data once the initial channel lineup is loaded. That's why I need to get the DTVPal only for couple of nights.

This is the advance I'm getting from the Sony thread.

seattlemark

09-15-09, 10:18 AM

This is strange. Everything appeared to be working great with the DTVPal outputting TVGOS through its RF Output, and without an IR blaster (which I can’t use for my setup that includes cable). By 2 days ago, Saturday night, I had a complete 8 days worth of TV Guide listings. Then yesterday, Sunday, I noticed somehow I had lost almost all of the listings that were already there! (Most shows that already had future listings were gone).

All that remained as of yesterday was up until today’s afternoon listings. So last night I did the DTVPal refresh thing by switching it in TVGOS mode with the Scientific Atlanta codes and a universal remote, away from the host channel and then back to the host channel. Even though I had just done this on Friday which was just two days before. Today the listings have advanced ever so slightly until tomorrow, Tuesday morning, but nothing after that for the rest of the 8 days (It repeatedly says “No Listing”). At this rate, the full listings will never come back! I had this funny feeling that everything was going too well and problems would arise, and I guess I was right. :( I will try the refresh thing every day and see if that helps.

Anyone else see this kind of behavior before, where the existing TV Guide listings start disappearing?

Yikes! After sitting over night, when I turned on the TV this morning again there was only the next 21 hours of listings (this time till tomorrow at 4:30 am). No more data after that. This 21 hour period shifts each night when the TV is off. I can't imagine what is going on, particularly since I had the whole week that disappeared one day. I have no idea what to do now to get the complete week of listings back.

Update. It's now 7 hours since I wrote the above, and the TV has been off until now, 1:20 pm. The listings have shifted. Now I have till 11:30 am tomorrow. It will never catch up. :(

phildaant

09-20-09, 10:31 PM

In my DTV Pal, I manually set/program it up like as shown: http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2693/kttv0111everysundaywron.gif

When I hit Done to save, it changed my start time to 4:15 PM. Um, why? Is this a bug? How do I fix it? I tried turning off and on, and deleting it and recreating it from scratch, but that didn't help. :(

Other weekly schedules for other days and hours seem OK. http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6756/snapshothq.png for my DTV Pal's system information for version numbers, IDs, etc.

Thank you in advance. :)

phildaant

09-21-09, 01:40 PM

TalkingRat

09-21-09, 02:08 PM

Philaant, I have a vague recollection of that problem, but only when someone tried to set up a weekly timer on the same day as the timer was being schedule, and it was past the start time being selected. I ran into it with my F103. My solution was to set it up as a single event, and then go back and edit it to weekly. Or you can do what you did, and wait until the next day.

phildaant

09-21-09, 02:14 PM

seattlemark

09-29-09, 02:36 AM

For the second time in 3 weeks, I have lost all my TVGOS listings. Yesterday afternoon I had the entire upcoming 7 days fully populated. After that the TV was off for around 26 hours. Now I checked again, and I see for the entire week it shows "No Listings" in every single slot. I am wondering if this is a problem with either the Toshiba TV (the TVGOS device), with bad incoming data, or with the DTVPal that is doing the digital to analog conversion. Has this sort of thing been reported before (other than in my own post where I lost some, but not all, of my listings a couple of weeks ago)?

Whidbey

09-29-09, 09:07 PM

phildaant

10-02-09, 02:29 AM

Rick313

10-02-09, 11:31 AM

It's that time of year again. Sounds like a daylight savings time issue. Yes, any device that relies on PSIP time is going to have similar problems unless all of your stations are transmitting the correct time. While that's a nice dream, it's just not reality.

The only other converter box that has timers is the Zinwell ZAT-970A, but it has it's own issues, so I don't think you'd be any happier with it. I don't own a DTVPal DVR, so I don't have any personal experience with it, but there have been a lot of mixed reviews. Many people claim that they are very happy with it, but even they will often admit to having occassional issues, so I would certainly be wary.

The most reliable OTA recording solutions at this time seem to be the Magnavox H2160MW9A DVD recorder available at Walmart and Target, or the TiVo HD.

TalkingRat

10-02-09, 11:40 AM

Phildaant, probably a daylight savings glitch, with perhaps some minutes off on a station as well. Check last year's thread to see how the Pal behaved with DST. Some boxes fixed themselves within a day, but others were trickier. I noticed it on my CM7000 and ignoring the hour, my usually accurate stations also had a 42 minute discrepancy. Fortunately, I'm recording with my Zat on manual clock. It performed as intended. ETA: I looked, and see I am using GMT offset for the timers.

phildaant

10-02-09, 11:50 AM

Phildaant, probably a daylight savings glitch, with perhaps some minutes off on a station as well. Check last year's thread to see how the Pal behaved with DST. Some boxes fixed themselves within a day, but others were trickier. I noticed it on my CM7000 and ignoring the hour, my usually accurate stations also had a 42 minute discrepancy. Fortunately, I'm recording with my Zat on manual clock. It performed as intended.Is there a way to disable the clock and/or EPG? I did not see it. I know I disabled it in my old VCR.

I do all my recording timer setups manually.

Rick313

10-02-09, 02:09 PM

Is there a way to disable the clock and/or EPG?

No. The Zinwell has a manual clock setting. However, it suffers from a bug that causes the channels to be changed on it's timers, so you basically have to check the timers every day to make sure they haven't changed. It's sad that ony two converters offer timers and both have bugs. What a pain!

phildaant

10-02-09, 02:15 PM

No. The Zinwell has a manual clock setting. However, it suffers from a bug that causes the channels to be changed on it's timers, so you basically have to check the timers every day to make sure they haven't changed. It's sad that ony two converters offer timers and both have bugs. What a pain!I wonder which one is better. DTV Pal or Zinwell.

It sucks to be using the first few models this early. We can't even upgrade them like DTV Pal DVR. :(

Also, I had to fix my computer's recorder for HDTV feeds since it recorded wrong channels. I didn't know rescanning (even with same stations) would affect the schedulers I made which I did a few weeks ago. Ugh!!!

Can we go back to stable analog? [grin]

Rick313

10-02-09, 02:29 PM

I wonder which one is better. DTV Pal or Zinwell.

Personally, I prefer the Zinwell despite it's issues. In my opinion, the picture quality is better than the DTVPal, it has a manual clock option, and it's not affected by AFD like the DTVPal. However, it only has a now/next guide, it has timer stability issues as I mentioned before, and it occassionally loses audio/video sync.

Ironically, one of the reasons that I chose the Zinwell was because it has updateable firmware. Unfortunately, Zinwell is unwilling to issue any updates due to the expense involved in distributing them over the air. Grr!!

Can we go back to stable analog?

For me, that would mean going back to cable. :eek: Too expensive!!

phildaant

10-02-09, 02:35 PM

Personally, I prefer the Zinwell despite it's issues. In my opinion, the picture quality is better than the DTVPal, it has a manual clock option, and it's not affected by AFD like the DTVPal. However, it only has a now/next guide, it has timer stability issues as I mentioned before, and it occassionally loses audio/video sync.

Ironically, one of the reasons that I chose the Zinwell was because it has updateable firmware. Unfortunately, Zinwell is unwilling to issue any updates due to the expense involved in distributing them over the air. Grr!!

For me, that would mean going back to cable. :eek: Too expensive!!Bummer for Zinwell's support. :( As for analog cable, wow you can't get many channels OTA with analog feeds?

TalkingRat

10-02-09, 03:02 PM

Is there a way to disable the clock and/or EPG? I did not see it. I know I disabled it in my old VCR.

I do all my recording timer setups manually.

I don't remember on the Pal, I haven't had it hooked up for awhile.

On the Zat, go to menu...setup...time zone and time

and you have three choices for GMT usage:
-by time zone (it shows the GMT offset, but you can't change it with that option)
-GMT usage off
-User defined

I currently have 'by time zone' selected, and it's correct, so I guess it must be looking at the right time after all. That screen sets the clock everywhere, I think -- for use with timer, clock display, and EPG. Although with the Zat in the extended EPG, I can usually access past listings as well as the future ones, so even if the clock were an hour ahead, I could still see what was really on.

kenavs

10-02-09, 03:37 PM

Wow, DTV Pal is sure buggy!

I ran into a weird timer power up glitch last night. Basically, my DTV Pal was supposed to turn on at 7:45 PM, then VCR records at 7:55 PM. From my VHS tape recording, I saw black with minor statics. I assume DTV Pal wasn't on. I took screen captures: http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4002/10012009dtvpalfailedtos.jpg ... After almost an hour or 46.5 minutes (VCR time), then DTV Pal came on and did its long EPG download. At first, it recorded on KCBS2.1 (looked like Survivor) for a few minutes, then switched to KABC7.1. Obviously, it was almost at the end of 8:00 PM hour. Did anyone have this problem before? I think I have seen this behavior when manually turning on DTV Pal in the past too. :(

For now, I am going to try having DTV Pal turn on for an hour at 4:00 AM. Then, autopower off itself after four hours to see that helps. I had to delete my Sunday night recording event, but then I am usually home so...

DTV Pal's Timer (all manually entered and filled all empty slots) was like this:
Mondays: KNBC4.1 from 7:45 PM to 9:15 PM
KCBS2.1 from 9:25 PM to 10:05 PM.
Thursdays: KABC7.1 from 7:45 PM to 10:05 PM
Fridays: KTLA5.1 from 7:45 PM to 9:05 PM
Sundays: KTTV11.1 from 7:45 PM to 10:05 PM

I would not recommend a DTV Pal for anyone due to its bugginess. Good thing I got it for free.

Do other converter boxes, including DTV Pal DVR, with schedulers have these problems? :(
The problem was not the DTVpal/TR40. The problem was the stations. Part of the PSIP information is the date when DST turns on or off. That value is supposed to be 0 until it is "less than" a month prior to the change. DST currently ends the 1st Sunday of November which is November 1 in 2009. If you read the segment of the ATSC standard that covers DST transition, it is obvious that there is a conflict if they set the value to 1 on October 1, which many stations did. It needs to be a full day less than one month from the transation date when they set the value of the transition date. Presumably many use they same buggy PSIP generation software. The tuner time should be OK today, since it is now October 2 and the tuner will be able to detemine that transition will be on November 1, 2009. Earlier yesterday, a 1 in the transition date would have been appropriate if the transition had taken place on October 1.

The clock should be OK today, and should remain correct untill next spring. Maybe it will even be OK then if enough stations raise hell with their software venders.

phildaant

10-02-09, 03:42 PM

The problem was not the DTVpal/TR40. The problem was the stations. Part of the PSIP information is the date when DST turns on or off. That value is supposed to be 0 until it is "less than" a month prior to the change. DST currently ends the 1st Sunday of November which is November 1 in 2009. If you read the segment of the ATSC standard that covers DST transition, it is obvious that there is a conflict if they set the value to 1 on October 1, which many stations did. It needs to be a full day less than one month from the transation date when they set the value of the transition date. Presumably many use they same buggy PSIP generation software. The tuner time should be OK today, since it is now October 2 and the tuner will be able to detemine that transition will be on November 1, 2009. Earlier yesterday, a 1 in the transition date would have been appropriate if the transition had taken place on October 1.

The clock should be OK today, and should remain correct untill next spring. Maybe it will even be OK then if enough stations raise hell with their software venders.Interesting. I forgot tocheck the DTV Pal's current clock last night when I saw the problems. I do remember its date (Thursday, 10/1/2009) was correct.

I guess I will remove my daily early morning power on and readd my Sunday night timer event.

Thanks all! Definitely annoying! :)

Whidbey

10-03-09, 05:07 PM

Is there a way to disable the clock and/or EPG? I did not see it. I know I disabled it in my old VCR.

I do all my recording timer setups manually.

Both of my TR40cra's have been off 1 hour the past few days. I've still been using them to make recordings and have not had any issues. I use the program guide to schedule my timers. As hard as it is, I just ignore the clock. If the guide says the show is 2 hours out, that's when the timer will fire. Obviously, the incorrect time is the fault of the transmitting party, not the TR40. Garbage in, garbage out.

kenavs

10-03-09, 07:27 PM

Both of my TR40cra's have been off 1 hour the past few days. I've still been using them to make recordings and have not had any issues. I use the program guide to schedule my timers. As hard as it is, I just ignore the clock. If the guide says the show is 2 hours out, that's when the timer will fire. Obviously, the incorrect time is the fault of the transmitting party, not the TR40. Garbage in, garbage out.
I just checked my TR40, and the time was correct. KCNC, which is the digital TVGOS station, set the transition date to 1 on October 1, which would cause a temporay problem, but my TR40 fixed itself. I presume it corrrected itself some time on Friday October 2, when it woould have been clear that the transition date of 1 had to mean November 1.

The early setting of the transition date to 1, by a station the units were getting time information from, should only have caused a problem on October 1 and early on October 2. If your units are still wrong, there must be something else going on. The station could be sending the wrong time, the DTS flag it is sending could actually be set to OFF, or something may have happened to the time zone or DST settings of your units.

phildaant

10-04-09, 07:56 PM

Last night, I turned on my DTV Pal and it did its boot up to download datas. Then, it told me I have new channels (KBEH). Does it rescan during boot up too?

lexus2108

10-04-09, 09:34 PM

Last night, I turned on my DTV Pal and it did its boot up to download datas. Then, it told me I have new channels (KBEH). Does it rescan during boot up too?

When you turn it off it turns itself on at different times in a 24 hour period. That is when it found new channel

phildaant

10-04-09, 09:36 PM

When you turn it off it turns itself on at different times in a 24 hour period. That is when it found new channelAh. What else does it do during those autopower ons and offs? I wonder why it can't download the TV schedules instead of when I manually boot up so I don't have to wait or abort the download?

gastrof

10-08-09, 05:30 AM

Has anyone seen the DTVPal Plus at their local K-Mart recently? I'd considered getting a third Pal, a Plus, and went to K-Mart today.

They didn't seem to have ANY converter boxes.

lgodave

10-08-09, 09:12 AM

I was to a Sears Grand (a variation on a Kmart) a while back and picked up a "clearance" DTVPal Plus that had been "damaged" (box was crushed on one side, contents unharmed) for a reduced price. They hadn't/haven't carried DTV converters since a little after the final conversion date. (June)

I have found bigger stores still having DTV Converters (yet they make them rather hard to find) and a local Shopko (WI only Dept store chain?) that still carries RCA DTV boxes prominently on it's Electronic Dept's Check-out counter... I personally like the RCA's Remote layout (Grandma friendly)... just not it's Now/Next Guide (and it's inability to manually add channels... maybe if I used a Smart Antenna that wouldn't be an issue?)

phildaant

10-08-09, 11:34 PM

Interesting. I forgot tocheck the DTV Pal's current clock last night when I saw the problems. I do remember its date (Thursday, 10/1/2009) was correct.

I guess I will remove my daily early morning power on and readd my Sunday night timer event.

Thanks all! Definitely annoying! :)I noticed my DTV Pal did NOT turn on tonight at 7:45 PM. I manually turned it on with its remote control and got nothing. No downloading EPG or anything. Right now, I am waiting for it to reset itself so it can work again.

I guess I will need to add back the daily turn on in its scheduler. :(

lexus2108

10-09-09, 10:22 PM

I noticed my DTV Pal did NOT turn on tonight at 7:45 PM. I manually turned it on with its remote control and got nothing. No downloading EPG or anything. Right now, I am waiting for it to reset itself so it can work again.

I guess I will need to add back the daily turn on in its scheduler. :(

Unplug it for 60 seconds and turn it back on for a reset

lexus2108

10-09-09, 10:25 PM

Has anyone seen the DTVPal Plus at their local K-Mart recently? I'd considered getting a third Pal, a Plus, and went to K-Mart today.

They didn't seem to have ANY converter boxes.

Everyone is OUT. Do not know if it is discontinuedDish or back order. I am leaning to discontinued.

Dish is out also and so is all the online places. In fact ALL Brand converters are GONE. Just 1 or 2 odd boxes left that places are selling.

Seems you can get the Dish DVR at sears.com $185

phildaant

10-09-09, 10:41 PM

Unplug it for 60 seconds and turn it back on for a resetI did, but that didn't work. I had to wait a few minutes for it to come back. In the past, I have seen it take a few hours. :(

Whidbey

10-09-09, 11:42 PM

Seems you can get the Dish DVR at sears.com $185

That would be nice, but I think it's slightly more... Sears (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_05757709000P#reviewsWrap?sid=I0084400010000100 600)

lgodave

10-10-09, 08:06 AM

Everyone is OUT. Do not know if it is discontinuedDish or back order. I am leaning to discontinued.

Dish is out also and so is all the online places. In fact ALL Brand converters are GONE. Just 1 or 2 odd boxes left that places are selling.

Seems you can get the Dish DVR at sears.com $185

You might not be looking hard enough. (Or your market is in fact "out")

It might be cheating but I just visited a "Liquidators" store... that had several Memorex MVCB1000 (a "beast" of a Converter box by the picture on the box) and Craig Electronics model CVD506 (or 508) units. They wanted $35 each and only issues were the boxes are a bit beat up... (Not as bad as the DTVPal Plus box which looked like it had been run over)

lexus2108

10-10-09, 09:49 AM

I did, but that didn't work. I had to wait a few minutes for it to come back. In the past, I have seen it take a few hours. :(

What version is your firmware on that box?

lexus2108

10-10-09, 09:53 AM

You might not be looking hard enough. (Or your market is in fact "out")

It might be cheating but I just visited a "Liquidators" store... that had several Memorex MVCB1000 (a "beast" of a Converter box by the picture on the box) and Craig Electronics model CVD506 (or 508) units. They wanted $35 each and only issues were the boxes are a bit beat up... (Not as bad as the DTVPal Plus box which looked like it had been run over)

Do you know where I can see pictures of the EPG of the Memorex MVCB1000
ty

OK found the manual and the EPG is really bad but the box does look nice

lexus2108

10-10-09, 09:55 AM

That would be nice, but I think it's slightly more... Sears (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_05757709000P#reviewsWrap?sid=I0084400010000100 600)

oppps it was just $285 I made a mistake

lgodave

10-10-09, 06:01 PM

Do you know where I can see pictures of the EPG of the Memorex MVCB1000
ty

OK found the manual and the EPG is really bad but the box does look nice

I assume it has a Now/Next type EPG and the graphics design does make that box look like a tank... Kind of reminds me of my late 90's DVD825 Philips/Magnavox DVD Player. Yet for the user that wants to "see" their converter box, I'm sure this will do nicely.

ucmerick

10-23-09, 02:36 PM

I would be surprised if any manufacturer is still making them since they are obsolete. Since they quit making analog (only) tvs several years ago, the number of analog tvs in service has been decreasing (even up to the transition). The transition required each analog tv in use at that time to have a box. And if the assumption is made that this is now true then there is no longer a market for the product in practical numbers. Even if the failure rate of the existing converter boxes exceeds that of the existing of analog televisions, I see no viable market and I believe the opposite will be true: there will be an increasing number of available used converter boxes as analog tvs fail and/or are scrapped.

smpowell

10-23-09, 04:01 PM

I would be surprised if any manufacturer is still making them since they are obsolete. .....I see no viable market .....

Except in Canada. Identical digital TV specs and transitioning OTA in Aug 2011.

TalkingRat

10-23-09, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by ucmerick
I would be surprised if any manufacturer is still making them since they are obsolete. .....I see no viable market .....

Except in Canada. Identical digital TV specs and transitioning OTA in Aug 2011.

Won't 2007 technology be obsolete by 2011?

Rammitinski

10-23-09, 05:03 PM

They probably wouldn't even want to buy most of these buggy, junky boxes up there.

ucmerick

10-23-09, 07:35 PM

They probably wouldn't even want to buy most of these buggy, junky boxes up there.

They are exactly what you get when you have to buy them and they are meant to last less than 3 years (not a durable good like a tv)!

lexus2108

10-24-09, 01:15 AM

CAN the DTVPAL be found anywhere? Can it be purchased anywhere?

Whidbey

10-24-09, 09:44 AM

CAN the DTVPAL be found anywhere? Can it be purchased anywhere?

Ebay and craigslist.org sometimes when you are lucky.

Floydage

10-24-09, 10:05 AM

CAN the DTVPAL be found anywhere? Can it be purchased anywhere?

Keep checking your local Sears. Ask them what days they get shipments and call the next day after they have time to stock the stuff (ask them how long it takes to stock the stuff too). I've been calling mine and unfortunately these people don't know what's been ordered, they have to wait to unpack and stock it. Sad. One guy told me there was an email circulating about getting more in due to all the enquiries. I read on this MB that some stores in CA recently got more in so there is hope.

smpowell

10-24-09, 03:10 PM

>>>Originally Posted by ucmerick
I would be surprised if any manufacturer is still making them since they are obsolete. .....I see no viable market .....

>>Except in Canada. Identical digital TV specs and transitioning OTA in Aug 2011.

>Won't 2007 technology be obsolete by 2011?

Economicaly no. Even if someone comes up with a 7th generation tuner, it's hard to believe that the canadian OTA market would justify the cost of a major redesign. Most of the converters were updated in 2008 so the better ones are already refined designs.

On the other hand, there is no sign of a coupon program up North, so we can always dream of someone bringing out a cheap ATSC/QAM converter to cover both the OTA and digital "open" cable markets. Back when converters first showed up there was speculation that some were designed with QAM in mind, and were just crippled to meet coupon program specs. No coupon program means no QAM restriction.

lexus2108

10-24-09, 04:32 PM

Ebay and craigslist.org sometimes when you are lucky.

used or new?

Rammitinski

10-25-09, 05:05 AM

On the other hand, there is no sign of a coupon program up North, so we can always dream of someone bringing out a cheap ATSC/QAM converter to cover both the OTA and digital "open" cable markets.There already are a few of those out here right now that are under $100.00 (though they can never keep them in stock). That's about the cheapest you're probaby going to get. Anything with QAM will not be cheaper than the most expensive CECB.

smpowell

10-26-09, 10:23 AM

There already are a few of those out here right now that are under $100.00 (though they can never keep them in stock). That's about the cheapest you're probaby going to get. Anything with QAM will not be cheaper than the most expensive CECB.

Just wondering, what models are showing up in Canadian stores? Are they decent ones like the Zenith or are they the so-so models that you can still find new in the US?

Floydage

10-26-09, 04:32 PM

Speaking of QAM, I wonder if the chips in any of these CECBs support it given the right code and a few hardware mods?

Rammitinski

10-27-09, 04:26 AM

Just wondering, what models are showing up in Canadian stores?That I wouldn't know. All the ones here are only avalable on the internet.

I hope for their sake they get better than what we've got - I hear about a lot of QC issues with the ones here (in the threads here and in customer reviews on the net).

Rammitinski

10-27-09, 04:29 AM

Speaking of QAM, I wonder if the chips in any of these CECBs support it given the right code and a few hardware mods?I'm pretty sure the answer to that is no.

phildaant

11-05-09, 11:32 PM

What version is your firmware on that box?Sorry for the late reply... F105 (screen capture: http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/2702/snapshotqoq.png ).

lexus2108

11-19-09, 04:58 PM

Sorry for the late reply... F105 (screen capture: http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/2702/snapshotqoq.png ).

What was the original question lol

phildaant

11-19-09, 06:55 PM

What was the original question lol
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17330805#post17330805 :P

lexus2108

11-20-09, 11:15 AM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17330805#post17330805 :P

Time changes are a bug. 106 fw is the best firmware ,but still have bugs.

Too bad no way to update FW. The DTVPAL DVR has two ways to update.

biker19

12-04-09, 05:03 PM

used or new?

Used and considering someone got mine on eBay for almost $50 the prices are holding up very well. If anyone has any of these laying around, this is a good time to unload them. :cool:

Whidbey

12-04-09, 07:08 PM

Used and considering someone got mine on eBay for almost $50 the prices are holding up very well. If anyone has any of these laying around, this is a good time to unload them. :cool:

I have a brand new TR-40cra, still sealed in the box, never been opened. Pretty sure it has firmware 105 according to the serial number, and the fact that I bought it at the same time as another that has 105. I believe firmware versions 105 and 106 are the same.

I've had it listed on craigslist.org for a few weeks now at $40, but so far no takers. I don't really care for e-bay that much.

Symbios

12-04-09, 10:06 PM

Heh, I have 3 still sealed in my closet somewhere. I should get rid of them while I still can...

Floydage

12-05-09, 01:38 PM

I have a few barely-used Zinwell ZAT-970As. I didn't need to use them but preferred to run them (hopefully) enough shake out any infant mortality-type defects since I knew the warranties would expire before doing anything with them.

biker19

12-10-09, 08:19 AM

Heh, I have 3 still sealed in my closet somewhere. I should get rid of them while I still can...

eBay is the way to go - Craigslist doesn't seem to do as well.

Jane B.

12-10-09, 08:59 AM

Scooper

12-10-09, 09:29 AM

Hook the DVD/VCR up to a line in port on the TV, and put the DTVPAL on the RF input (or a 2nd line input on the TV). Use an RF splitter coming out of the wall, with one output on the splitter going to the DTVPAL and one to your DVD/VCR.

arxaw

12-10-09, 09:39 AM

eBay is the way to go - Craigslist doesn't seem to do as well.Agreed. Converter boxes just don't get nearly as much interest on craigslist as they do on eBay.

Symbios

12-10-09, 10:45 AM

Yeah, put them on ebay a couple days ago. There doesn't seem to be many DTVPal/TR-40s on ebay right now, so maybe they'll get some attention...

Whidbey

12-10-09, 02:02 PM

Yeah, put them on ebay a couple days ago. There doesn't seem to be many DTVPal/TR-40s on ebay right now, so maybe they'll get some attention...

I put mine on Amazon the other evening for $40. It was sold when I checked the next morning.

Floydage

12-10-09, 04:52 PM

I have had a VCR go out and replaced it with a Magnavox DVD Recorder and 4-Head Hi-Fi Stereo VCR, (Model: ZV457MG9 which HAS a ATSC tunner built in). I have not had time to try setting this up but would like to be able to use it in such a way that I can be recording from one station via this DVD Recorder/VCR and using my Pal to watch another.

If I understand it correctly, you should be able to run the antenna into the Magnavox then the RF out (coax) of the Magnavox into the Pal's antenna input. Then there should be a TV/VCR(DVDR) switch that allows the antenna signal to pass through to the Pal while recording.

This is analogous to the old analog days using a VCR (pretend the Pal is the TV).

Hook the Magnavox and Pal up to the TV with whatever input connections on the TV give you the best pic. Best-to-worst: HDMI, component (Red/Green/Blue), S-video, composite (Yellow), then RF (coax); I might have missed an obscure one.

The best you can do on the Pal is composite.

Don't forget the audio/stereo connections if not using RF to TV; the RF may only carry mono sound on the Pal (I don't have a Pal). I also don't have anything HDMI but I don't think typical HDMI carries audio either.

If the TV only has an RF input then you'll have to hook the RF out of the Pal to the TV (the previous antenna setup staying the same as above). The you have to use the Pal's analog pass-thru when watching the Magnavox.

biker19

12-11-09, 11:25 AM

Yeah, put them on ebay a couple days ago. There doesn't seem to be many DTVPal/TR-40s on ebay right now, so maybe they'll get some attention...

While the box has had some bad publicity on this forum, the sale prices seem to reflect its value. At the height of the CECB program I sold one for around $35, when it could be obtained via coupon for next to nothing and other CECBs were fetching less than $20 on eBay. And now they routinely go for more than the original list price.

Jim1348

12-13-09, 05:34 PM

Rick313

12-14-09, 11:51 AM

The warranty is 90 days. In my experience, unplugging the device for a while will normally resolve the problem.

Whidbey

12-15-09, 10:05 PM

I have had two Dish DTV Pal Plus converter boxes for a number of months now. This afternoon I tried to turn it on, but it will not power on. I did try using the wall wart from my other working unit, but that did not make a difference. I have it unplugged now hoping that perhaps that will resurrect it. Does anybody know of anything else I should try? Does anybody know how long the warranty is on these devices?

Every now and then mine do the same thing. I've had two of them do it at the same time. I would unplug them and plug them back in, sometimes that did the trick right away, sometimes that woke them up. I've also found that they sometimes come on after a few minutes on their own.
My only theory to this is that they are doing some sort of internal update to the guide (or whatever) and cannot be disturbed. Usually, the light comes on when they are doing an update, but, as we know, these boxes are less than perfect.

Vanr

12-17-09, 02:20 PM

I did not go back and read all posts in this section of the forum so this info may just be more of the same...

I own 5 DTV-Pals, 3 of them operate on a roof top Antenna system (needed for Arvada Co.) the other two operate on active indoor antennas.
My problem is that 3 of the 5 DTV-Pals no longer work good enough to use. I have tried resetting, swapping remotes, days of power down. Dish network tech support is absolutely worthless, they advised me that my warranty is over and I should buy a replacement if I can find one. I love the DTV-Pal features but it is useless if they do not work! I am a product engineer and I believe these devices were designed to make a quick buck, and propagate the Dish network name, these low cost devices were never intended to be supported. I thought about buying a DTV-PAL DVR but based on the trouble reports it does not appear that Dish is supporting this device ether.

I have replaced two of three DTV Pals with Insignia NS-DXA1 units, they are not as nice to use as the DTV-Pals but they have been working consistently for months and now my # 4 DTV pal needs to have the power cycled to restore normal operation and occasionally the picture freezes but the audio is ok for about 3 minutes then the converter box resets itself (about 60 seconds to reset) then it's ok for the next few weeks.

Looking into a Roku Player to reduce the dependance on OTA tv.

tmwalsh0

12-17-09, 05:39 PM

Vanr 6579:
A likely candidate for causing your problems is the power supply. Either the 'wall wort' or the capacitors internal to the box. If that gets out of tolerance, it surely could affect performance. Likely they used poor quality capacitors, and they baked out over time. Couldn't hurt to measure wall wort voltage and inspect the internal capacitors for bulging tops and leaking electrolyte.
tom

tmwalsh0

12-17-09, 05:40 PM

double posted somehow...
tom

Floydage

12-17-09, 06:44 PM

He's got one good box left, try that one's wall wart on the other four units.

jafi1

12-20-09, 01:22 PM

Vanr

12-28-09, 07:09 PM

Looking into a Roku Player to reduce the dependance on OTA tv.

Santa Brought me the basic ($79) Roku player, I connected it to my last set of composite video / audio inputs on a Panasonic 32” CRT Standard Def TV, powered it up and watched it “Auto Update” the firmware, then entered my WEP wireless key and was browsing Amazon video on demand with in 10 munities of powering up the Roku player.
I have to say, for $79 and a low speed (Quest 1.5Meg) DSL connection I am very impressed, this is a great convenience for us people that still live in the standard def world.
This is what I learned that I did not expect…

1) This Roku player has a Wireless G(?) network interface, a while back (~1 year) ago
I looked at the ONE $100 Roku player that was available and I did not remember a wireless interface? I was pleasantly surprised, this means I can put off pulling another network wire into a different wall in my TV room.

2) The Roku player has no power switch, it shuts itself off sometime after your are done with it.

3) The Roku player has only a mostly photo 7 page manual, as a mild geek I was looking forward to reading the manual (after it was working) and discovering things I did not know about, but a 9 button remote and five I/O jacks doesn’t need much explanation. The system is very simple it works AND all Nine buttons on the remote are BIG for us who have OPVS (Old Person Vision Syndrome).

3) The most popular Amazon videos cost $2.99 ea, this is 2/3 more than I pay 2 miles away at a “Red Box”.

4) We now have a Netflix 2 week free trial going, I did not realize that only 25% of the Netflix library is available for streaming, someone told me that they cycle through and only stream a % of the library.

So far I’m a happy Roku customer! :)

partsman_ba

12-29-09, 03:27 PM

My DTVPal was purchased from Sears when they first got them in stock. I have had absolutely no problems with it, other than I have to cycle it through the channels to load guide information (no TVGOS). I use it as the tuner for my VCR, and mostly to see what's coming on TV. I usually only tape 1-2 shows at a session, and don't use it every day, so maybe that's why it has held up so well.

Whidbey

12-30-09, 01:16 AM

I have had absolutely no problems with it, other than I have to cycle it through the channels to load guide information (no TVGOS).

Mine takes a while to wake up once in a while. If I click the power button, it just does... nothing. No lights, no on screen display. Nothing. Then, in a few minutes, it comes on like normal. The first few times it did this, I unplugged it, plugged it back in, beat it with a sharp stick, but it always takes it's time to turn on. Now I sit a wait... I've been trained.

partsman_ba

12-30-09, 03:14 PM

I am correct in remembering that the Pal wakes up in the middle of the night and downloads guide info for those with a TVGOS signal, right?

TalkingRat

12-30-09, 04:57 PM

I am correct in remembering that the Pal wakes up in the middle of the night and downloads guide info for those with a TVGOS signal, right?

Way back on this thread, someone relayed what a Dish tech said, which was that on standby, it frees up memory by deleting past events from the guide, but it does not actually load new guide data until it powers up again. And at that point, it also checks for new signals.

partsman_ba

12-31-09, 11:49 AM

But with PSIP only, it doesn't do any scanning, whether for new channels or guide data at all, correct? Or am I disabling scans by turning off the box with the remote?

tmwalsh0

12-31-09, 12:05 PM

But with PSIP only, it doesn't do any scanning, whether for new channels or guide data at all, correct? Or am I disabling scans by turning off the box with the remote?

I think you and the Rat are confusing or commingling Guide and PSIP. The Pal won't even pay attention to TVGOS{TV GUIDE OVER SOMETHING?} data unless you put it into the Guide 'mode' of operation.
The PSIP data is broadcast over and over and over .... and over, with the short chunks being repeated very often, the longer [future & detail] chunks being sent out on a longer interval between repeats.
The Pal is supposed to wake up to do 'maintenance' now and again, but I can't tell you the details. What TalkingRat described makes sense.

I believe that when you first turn it on after an un-revealed to the masses interval of being off, or in standby, it will go try to get the PSIP data from each of the memorized channels. It can do a pretty quick scan to each active channel for the 'current title' information, almost instantaneously, and then allow you do control it. Subsequently, when you are watching, it will be getting all the detailed and future PSIP from the station you are watching. When you change channels, it will grab whatever is available as you surf station to station. If you pause, it can grab more.
Does this help?
tom

TalkingRat

12-31-09, 03:22 PM

To clarify, what I meant by 'Guide' was the Pal's EPG (Electronic Program Guide) rather than TVGOS (TV Guide On Screen).

For the Pal guide, the Pal clears out old data in standby, and then does a refresh at power up. That is also when it searches for new or dropped frequencies. The slower method for filling the guide is while you park on the channel, which in my Pal's case took 15-30 minutes per channel. I think it was slow to get PSIP data on the active channel because it first had to dump future data elsewhere to make room. I had a lot of subchannels, and a couple stations with a week's PSIP data, and a station I didn't even want that on occasion listed 6-7 programs per half hour!! The Pal was constantly having to dump future data to make room.

The PR spokesperson for Dish identified the Pal CECB guide as PSIP data, and IIRC that referred to the info it took for interfacing with analog TVGOS devices as well, but it was all vaguely described, and second hand from the UK programmers. As I understood it, whether it was filling the connected analog TVGOS device or the Pal Guide, it was all PSIP data. But it is possible that it fills the TVGOS device differently than it fills the Pal Guide. When I was paying a lot of attention to the Pal, nobody had their TVGOS connection working yet.

phildaant

01-02-10, 01:22 PM

Every now and then mine do the same thing. I've had two of them do it at the same time. I would unplug them and plug them back in, sometimes that did the trick right away, sometimes that woke them up. I've also found that they sometimes come on after a few minutes on their own.
My only theory to this is that they are doing some sort of internal update to the guide (or whatever) and cannot be disturbed. Usually, the light comes on when they are doing an update, but, as we know, these boxes are less than perfect.Set a daily schedule to power on for like for 4-5 hours and you shouldn't have the lock up issue.

phildaant

01-02-10, 01:23 PM

WEIRD! I powered on my DTV Pal converter box and to tweak its timer, but found it EMPTY! What the frak?

I haven't used the converter box since last month before Christmas break started. Maybe there's a 2010 bug? Did anyone have this problem too? This was a first time for me. :(

Rick313

01-03-10, 12:41 PM

phildaant

01-03-10, 01:54 PM

Seems like I remember people having that problem last year. If I remember correctly, there is a problem with timers carrying over from one year to the next. Just consider yourself lucky that your timers work at all. I have an early DTVPal whose timers get wiped out every time it powers up.Oy, so many problems with this converter box brand and model. Thanks for letting me know that this is a known issue. That explains why I have never seen this happened before since I started using it during the weekend that analog channels died.

partsman_ba

01-04-10, 12:47 PM

I think you and the Rat are confusing or commingling Guide and PSIP. The Pal won't even pay attention to TVGOS{TV GUIDE OVER SOMETHING?} data unless you put it into the Guide 'mode' of operation.
Actually, it pays attention to the station which is broadcasting TVGOS, using it as the clock source. Thought those with a TVGOS station had reported PSIP data scans?
The PSIP data is broadcast over and over and over .... and over, with the short chunks being repeated very often, the longer [future & detail] chunks being sent out on a longer interval between repeats.
The Pal is supposed to wake up to do 'maintenance' now and again, but I can't tell you the details. What TalkingRat described makes sense.

I believe that when you first turn it on after an un-revealed to the masses interval of being off, or in standby, it will go try to get the PSIP data from each of the memorized channels. It can do a pretty quick scan to each active channel for the 'current title' information, almost instantaneously, and then allow you do control it. Subsequently, when you are watching, it will be getting all the detailed and future PSIP from the station you are watching. When you change channels, it will grab whatever is available as you surf station to station. If you pause, it can grab more.
Does this help?
tom

As far as I can tell, mine has never done any scans whatsoever. No new services added, no PSIP data unless I tune the channel myself.

To clarify, what I meant by 'Guide' was the Pal's EPG (Electronic Program Guide) rather than TVGOS (TV Guide On Screen).

For the Pal guide, the Pal clears out old data in standby, and then does a refresh at power up. That is also when it searches for new or dropped frequencies. The slower method for filling the guide is while you park on the channel, which in my Pal's case took 15-30 minutes per channel. I think it was slow to get PSIP data on the active channel because it first had to dump future data elsewhere to make room. I had a lot of subchannels, and a couple stations with a week's PSIP data, and a station I didn't even want that on occasion listed 6-7 programs per half hour!! The Pal was constantly having to dump future data to make room.

I only have 5 stations, 4 with one subchannel and PBS with 3, and no one is sending out much more than one day's data, so no problem with too much info. Maybe I need to experiment more with letting it go into standby? I usually turn it on and off myself with the remote. Most of the time, I just set it to the channel to record and leave it on until I get home, since I'm only taping one program. Whenever I've actually set timer events I've had no problem, but when taping only one thing, it's just as easy to turn it on and leave it on, since I know others have had missed events.

TalkingRat

01-04-10, 09:58 PM

Turning it off by remote would put it in standby, you should not have to do it via the inactivity timer.

So you never get the "The program guide information is now being downloaded" message and progress bar? For my 10-11 stations, 25 channels, it downloaded for about 10 seconds, so it might go by really fast with your 5. It didn't download every time I turned it on, it had to be off for about 4 hours before it refreshed the guide on power up.

My F103 lost the CBS lock quite a bit in the early days, so if I manually went to standby, I tuned to CBS first. That way, if it lost the lock and defaulted to the current channel, it would still be on CBS and could more easily find the lock again.

I haven't used the Pal since before June 12, so I don't know how things are now. I like the 8 timers in my Zat enough to put up with the incompatibility with my CM7000.

gac_1959

01-06-10, 06:52 AM

Hi, I haven't posted on this thread in ages but I thought I'd chime in. I've had mostly good luck recently with the following strategy: I bought a $10 lamp timer and put it between the wall socket and the DTVPal, set to turn off for 1 hour early in the morning and then back on for the rest of the day (I have no timers set anywhere near early morning). I haven't had any problems with the Pal since then, save one, mentioned here by very recent posters, in that all of my timers were deleted around the change of the year a few days ago. I don't remember that happening last year (though I may not be remembering right; yes, I have had it that long!)

Originally I was a F101 owner and routinely (most every time the box powered off) had my timers corrupted. I managed to get a return authorization on the Dish web site from a "dr. dish" representative, and got a F106 box back in the mail (return attempts via phone were futile). That solved the timer corruption but I still had occasional "freezes" where the box did not respond to timers or the remote, or the box would turn on but fail to produce audio. I had to cycle the power to get it working again. I noticed that after a brief unplugging, it would generally behave OK for at least a few days if not a couple of weeks. That led me to experiment with the "unplug it every night automatically" theory.

When working, I still find its reception inferior to my other box (Zenith 901), which I have on my other TV which has no need for timed re-tuning. But, I find the Pal is better than OTA analog, or some other CECBs. If Dish was hoping to spread the brand name with the DTVPal, they did so only in a negative way, IMHO. But, I have recently found it an acceptable OTA feed for a DVR (my venerable Toshiba RDXS-32) for timed recordings, using the daily reset strategy.

--Gary

phildaant

01-06-10, 01:48 PM

Hi, I haven't posted on this thread in ages but I thought I'd chime in. I've had mostly good luck recently with the following strategy: I bought a $10 lamp timer and put it between the wall socket and the DTVPal, set to turn off for 1 hour early in the morning and then back on for the rest of the day (I have no timers set anywhere near early morning). I haven't had any problems with the Pal since then, save one, mentioned here by very recent posters, in that all of my timers were deleted around the change of the year a few days ago. I don't remember that happening last year (though I may not be remembering right; yes, I have had it that long!)

Originally I was a F101 owner and routinely (most every time the box powered off) had my timers corrupted. I managed to get a return authorization on the Dish web site from a "dr. dish" representative, and got a F106 box back in the mail (return attempts via phone were futile). That solved the timer corruption but I still had occasional "freezes" where the box did not respond to timers or the remote, or the box would turn on but fail to produce audio. I had to cycle the power to get it working again. I noticed that after a brief unplugging, it would generally behave OK for at least a few days if not a couple of weeks. That led me to experiment with the "unplug it every night automatically" theory...Interesting strategies. So using daily timer an hour recording + four hours of idle time before auto-sleeping trick doesn't work for you to avoid unresponsive box?

I guess we can't do anything about the scheduled timers going away when New Year's Day hits. :(

Floydage

01-06-10, 06:19 PM

So using daily timer an hour recording + four hours of idle time before auto-sleeping trick doesn't work for you to avoid unresponsive box?

I thought the same thing until I read the part about the box freezing with the timers becoming unresponsive.

partsman_ba

01-07-10, 03:42 PM

pekmez

01-16-10, 07:52 AM

I found this thread by searching for hang/freeze TR-40 after finding nothing of use on their support page.

My TR-40 not only hangs (green power light stays on and does not respond to input from remote, no picture) but it won't consistently get out of that state even if you pull the power and wait 5 minutes. Currently I have power-cycled it about a dozen times (even though there should be no logical reason why power-cycling once is better or worse than power cycling a dozen times! It's just the only thing I can *do*.)

Usually this happens if it's left powered on for too long, but today it seems to have happened spontaneously when I turned it on, and I haven't gotten it to stop (the green light comes on immediately when powering it on, and then it doesn't respond to input). I'm leaving it unplugged from its power supply, but it drives me crazy that I have no idea if or when it will stop hanging immediately when plugged in and display a signal again. Any thoughts?

phildaant

01-16-10, 08:42 AM

pekmez

01-16-10, 11:31 PM

usually ours hangs because we left it *on* for 24 hours (this happens because we haven't taught the 4 year old to turn off the TR40 with the remote once she pushes the button on the tv and there is no picture.) And by hang, I mean that it hangs and *continues* hanging after multiple power cycles. Usually if I leave power disconnected for 5 to 15 minutes it will recover (meaning, I plug it in and the LED is not on, and now I can start up normally with remote again.)

This one time: the second I turned it on, after possibly many days of not being turned on, it hung. The kicker: LED still comes on after leaving it disconnected from power for the past 12 hours. I think it may be permanently dead this time.

pekmez

01-16-10, 11:40 PM

Correction. The first time I connected it to power after the 12 hours without power, still hanging.

Just because I am stubborn, I tried one more quick powercycle, and this time it finally came back without the green LED and could be powered on with the remote. hallelujah.
but what the hell is going on in my cargo cult of multiple power cycles spanning hours and hours?

Beeper

02-09-10, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by TalkingRat
So you never get the "The program guide information is now being downloaded" message and progress bar?

No guide information notice, no CBS lock. I forgot to mention that my box is F101.

He won't get the automatic guide download at power on, or the CBS time lock if he doesn't have a local station transmitting a TVGOS signal.

Even though he is not using TVGOS, the unit looks for, and recognizes a TVGOS signal,
causing the guide download at power on and the CBS time lock for all stations.

phildaant

02-10-10, 12:36 AM

pm3839

02-13-10, 11:10 AM

I believe this is my first time. Basically, I came home and noticed my DTV Pal was on. I thought it was doing its usual timer for my VCR. I checked my recording noticed the whole recording was stuck on its download. The graph appeared to be 100% done, but frozen. I had to power off and on. Has anyone seen that glitch before?

my TR40 (with F105 firmware) has never frozen during the many many guide downloads it has done in the last 14 months or so....

but it has occasionally frozen while simply watching random channels....no pattern to it or cause for it as far as i can tell....and if i just let it sit like that for 10 to 15 minutes it seems to often 'fix' itself and go back to normal.....a few times i had to unplug the ac power cord to clear it....

phildaant

02-13-10, 11:14 AM

my TR40 (with F105 firmware) has never frozen during the many many guide downloads it has done in the last 14 months or so....

but it has occasionally frozen while simply watching random channels....no pattern to it or cause for it as far as i can tell....and if i just let it sit like that for 10 to 15 minutes it seems to often 'fix' itself and go back to normal.....a few times i had to unplug the ac power cord to clear it....Interesting. I rarely channel surf so I can't say I have that problem.

partsman_ba

02-14-10, 04:03 PM

I think the problems stem from lack of memory in the Pal. I have only 5 broadcast signals, sending out 12 discrete channels, with only PSIP data. Only one or two broadcasters have decided to send more than the minimum data (for fear of degrading their signal, they say.) I have never had a timer not fire, nor a lockup of any kind with my F101 Pal. I use it to tune for my VCR and as an electronic TV guide since I upgraded to an HDTV.

phildaant

02-14-10, 04:16 PM

I think the problems stem from lack of memory in the Pal...And there is no way to optimize it I assume. :(

Whidbey

02-15-10, 09:04 AM

phildaant

02-15-10, 12:09 PM

I have 34 channels, most sending out full program info, and have never had problems that could be traced to memory. That's one of the things that seems to work well with my TR-40's.Well for me, I think I have like over 80 channels (including .2, .3, .4, .5, .6, .7, .8, etc. that DTV Pal finds; my computer's HDTV tuners found up to 80 channels, but DTV Pal found way more). Is there a way to figure how many there are without manually counting?

phildaant

02-15-10, 11:49 PM

I believe this is my first time. Basically, I came home and noticed my DTV Pal was on. I thought it was doing its usual timer for my VCR. I checked my recording noticed the whole recording was stuck on its download. The graph appeared to be 100% done, but frozen. I had to power off and on. Has anyone seen that glitch before?My VCR was trying to record 24 for over 40 minutes! I was able to press Select button to exit the hang.

I am going to unplug DTVPal for about 30 minutes and replug it to see if that help for future events. If that doesn't work, then I might need to redo the channels to see if that helps. My DTVPal is becoming unreliable now. Grr!

phildaant

02-17-10, 06:45 PM

My VCR was trying to record 24 for over 40 minutes! I was able to press Select button to exit the hang.

I am going to unplug DTVPal for about 30 minutes and replug it to see if that help for future events. If that doesn't work, then I might need to redo the channels to see if that helps. My DTVPal is becoming unreliable now. Grr!I e-mailed Dish Network to know if there was a limit on how many channels it can hold. I got this answer (don't trust it 100%): "... The DTV Pal has no limit on channels so you should be able to add all necessary channels to the unit..."

partsman_ba

02-18-10, 11:13 AM

Well for me, I think I have like over 80 channels (including .2, .3, .4, .5, .6, .7, .8, etc. that DTV Pal finds; my computer's HDTV tuners found up to 80 channels, but DTV Pal found way more). Is there a way to figure how many there are without manually counting?

Not that I know of.

I e-mailed Dish Network to know if there was a limit on how many channels it can hold. I got this answer (don't trust it 100%): "... The DTV Pal has no limit on channels so you should be able to add all necessary channels to the unit..."

What did you think they would say? Yes, theoretically the unit will work if you had every broadcast channel (with multiple subchannels,) but I'll bet the amount of data churning through its little memory would cause all kinds of hiccups.

phildaant

02-23-10, 12:14 AM

Ugh, my frakkin's DTV Pal locked up during the channel download again. I am going to try clearing out its channel list and rescan from scratch. I assume this will mess up my timer too.

10:33 PM PST: I just resetted my DTV Pal back to factory defaults to start clean and redo everything. It added 80 new channels on a scan from scratch. :D It doesn't tell me the number in its channel list and how many added after another new channel scan (zero). Let's see how this goes.

phildaant

03-08-10, 10:22 AM

keyboard21

03-19-10, 07:15 PM

oldsyd

03-29-10, 04:53 PM

I have a DTVPal plus but I do not have any other TVGOS devices. From what I understand, the DTVPal recognizes the new Digital TVGOS and will convert it to analog for legacy TVGOS VCR's, DVR's and TV's but there is no way to view a TVGOS guide directly from the DTVPal, right?

My question is: Is there any benefit to having these TVGOS aware boxes if you do not have a legacy TVGOS device to read the analog output?

I was hoping there was a way to extract the TVGOS data out of it and display it on a standard NTSC TV, or maybe a firmware hack that allows the CECB to display a TVGOS menu on the output.

Wishful thinking:confused:

Rammitinski

03-29-10, 05:20 PM

No - wishful thinking.

keyboard21

03-29-10, 06:31 PM

oldsyd

03-29-10, 07:54 PM

Thanks for confirming this. It's a shame that TVGOS is a free service and nobody wants to use it. I'm guessing it will eventually die. Seems like a natural match for a CECB.

Scooper

03-29-10, 08:04 PM

If you have another analog device that did the TVGOS thing - the PAL / TR40 can be put into a mode where it can supply information to that device.

Otherwise - it just uses PSIP data for it's internal guide.

Rick313

03-29-10, 11:09 PM

Is there any benefit to having these TVGOS aware boxes if you do not have a legacy TVGOS device to read the analog output?

There is no advantage as far as guide data is concerned. However, the unit does use the TVGOS time stamp to set its internal clock. This is especially beneficial if you intend to make use of the DTVPal event timers since the TVGOS time stamp is generally more reliable than PSIP time stamps.

Rammitinski

03-30-10, 03:32 AM

It's a shame that TVGOS is a free service and nobody wants to use it.Where in the world did you get that impression?

Floydage

03-30-10, 12:10 PM

Rammitinski

03-30-10, 05:51 PM

Are there still VCRs, DVRs, and TVs being made that support this function?For recording devices, only the ATSC DTVPal DVR.

But they are still building Sony and Mitsubishi LCD TV's with the feature.

I was just referring to his "nobody wants to use it" part. Tons of people that liked and used it but have lost it have been complaining left and right about it. All one has to do to realize that is just take a quick look here over in the HDTV and DVD Recorders forums.

The newer TVGOS devices use the digital data, although the analog is still sent over some cable systems - and I'm really not sure if those TV's with it now will fall back on that if the digital's not available. My guess would be yeah, though, since the older Sony DVR does that.

keyboard21

04-01-10, 05:23 AM

Indeed, Artec developed a pricier one just for that function:

http://www.meritline.com/artec-t3apr-t-tvr-dtv-converter-box-with-tv-guide---p-34159.aspx

It appears TVG is still supporting and making money off of it. Are there still VCRs, DVRs, and TVs being made that support this function?

"TV Guide Subscription required for TV Guide Program"

What is this? Is it like the PAL DVR that has the TV GUIDE for program guide?

Also how much is the subscription?

Floydage

04-01-10, 10:05 AM

"TV Guide Subscription required for TV Guide Program"

What is this? Is it like the PAL DVR that has the TV GUIDE for program guide?

Also how much is the subscription?

I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guide_Plus

I wish I had it but I don't so I'm no expert; but from what I can surmise you need a digital tuner with this capability and a TV, DVR, or VCR with the capability to display the info from the tuner. I think the TV, DVR, or VCR can be analog otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for a CECB mfger to produce a box with this capability.

I think someone confirmed yes for the PAL DVR further back up this thread.

The subscription is paid for by the device mfgers (like they do with Dolby sound, etc.).

Rammitinski

04-01-10, 01:49 PM

One or the other - the recorder, or the TV, have to be equipped to receive it.

The Pal and Artec CECB's "convert" the newer, digital data to analog for the old, analog TVGOS recorders and TV's that are only able to receive the analog data.

Rovi Corporation owns TVGOS now. Here's some more basic stuff on it:

http://www.rovicorp.com/dtv/10053.htm

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-wdJAiADqs3G/learn/learningcenter/home/tvs_tvgos2.html

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2007/02/tv_guide_on_screen.php

keyboard21

04-01-10, 03:10 PM

I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guide_Plus

I wish I had it but I don't so I'm no expert; but from what I can surmise you need a digital tuner with this capability and a TV, DVR, or VCR with the capability to display the info from the tuner. I think the TV, DVR, or VCR can be analog otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for a CECB mfger to produce a box with this capability.

I think someone confirmed yes for the PAL DVR further back up this thread.

The subscription is paid for by the device mfgers (like they do with Dolby sound, etc.).

So there is no monthly charge?

Rammitinski

04-01-10, 03:40 PM

Not for the end user, no.

The manufacturer of the product with TVGOS pays a licensing fee to them, and then passes that cost off to you in the price.

keyboard21

04-01-10, 03:48 PM

Rammitinski

04-01-10, 04:24 PM

The PalDVR's guide design is based on older Dish DVR software. The TVGOS on any other device looks more like that second link I provided in post #6631 (much more colorful, for one thing).

Really, the only thing the PalDVR gets from TVGOS is the data. Everything else about the software and firmware is theirs.

keyboard21

04-01-10, 04:26 PM

ThePalDVR's guide design is based on older Dish DVR software. The TVGOS on any other device looks more like that second link I provided in post #6631.

Are you saying the Artecs tvguide box looks like this?

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-PoJI7j6bNOX/learn/learningcenter/home/tvs_tvgos2.html

Not according to the online manual

http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Artec_T3APR-T_TVG.html

It says TVguide box but I see no epg with TVguide? Would you have a link of what the TVGUIDE on the Artec box looks like?

Rammitinski

04-01-10, 04:29 PM

The Artec's PSIP guide, which is entirely separate from having anything to do with "passing the TVGOS signal through to older, analog TVGOS devices", does look exactly like it does in it's manual.

Both the Artec and the Pal CECB's (not the DVR - the ATSC converter boxes) have PSIP guides of their own design - just like every other CECB with it's own guide.

To use them with an older TVGOS device, you have to put those two models into a "TVGOS mode", which turns off most of it's own, independent functions. Then, the TVGOS recorder basically controls it (changes channels) with an "IR blaster" (or sometimes called a "cable eye" - Google it).

Other than that TVGOS conversion when in "TVGOS mode" feature, those two boxes function just as any other CECB does. They do not "receive" TVGOS in any way that would be possible for them to use it themselves in their own guides - they just convert it and pass it through for the older, analog TVGOS devices. Entirely independent functions. They do not use any sort of "TVGOS software" for their own guides.

Ignore any info that states "needing a subscription" or implies that the box "uses TVGOS" itself. They have people writing that stuff that don't really know what they're talking about. It's very likely that English isn't even their first language.

keyboard21

04-01-10, 04:51 PM

Rammitinski

04-01-10, 05:04 PM

So the use of TVGUIDE name is bait and switch.
The way they word it is confusing and can be misleading, for sure.

keyboard21

04-01-10, 05:55 PM

The way they word it is confusing and can be misleading, for sure.

ok so it is not just me

I am still waiting for a NEW 11.3

Floydage

04-01-10, 09:48 PM

Then, the TVGOS recorder basically controls it (changes channels) with an "IR blaster" (or sometimes called a "cable eye" - Google it).

That sounds extremely cool and convenient vs the CECB/VCR hassle I currently have to deal with when recording, esp timer style; I assume it's done right from the TV Guide menu conveniently too. Now I'm even more interested. :cool:

Rammitinski

04-02-10, 03:55 AM

That sounds extremely cool and convenient....Now I'm even more interested.Only problem is, there are no standalone DVD or HDD recorders made anymore with both TVGOS and IR blasters. And getting one of these two "converter" boxes to work with the old TVGOS recorders is spotty at best. There have probably been more unsuccessful attempts than satisfactory ones reported here (I don't know if you can call that "false advertising", though, as it's probably more the host channel's fault than anything else).

The only recent recorders that have IR blasters out there are the tunerless Panny DMR-EA18 (DVD) and EA38 (DVD/VCR combo). The Panny EZ28, which has a built-in ATSC tuner (but no IR blaster), is only about $25.00 more than the EA18. Along with the Magnavox H2160A HDD/DVD recorder, those are about the best of what's available for basic recording out there. But no guides.

If you want something with a guide (for OTA), and one that you can set recordings through, you'd really be much better off spending the money on a DTVPal DVR than an old, well-worn TVGOS HDD/DVD recorder, where it'll probably cost you at least as much, and you never know what you're getting, from the dodgy likes of ebay or whatever. (If you're at all interested in the Pal DVR, I'd suggest you don't wait too long and order one from Kmart.com, because it's soon going to be discontinued under the Dish name and sold only under the "Channel Master" brand name - for $100.00 more.)

lgodave

04-02-10, 10:12 AM

(If you're at all interested in the Pal DVR, I'd suggest you don't wait too long and order one from Kmart.com, because it's soon going to be discontinued under the Dish name and sold only under the "Channel Master" brand name - for $100.00 more.)

Thanks for the heads up. I've just recently started using my DTVPal and DVD Recorder together. Always been meaning to consider a Pal DVR. This should be a nice addition to my HDTV. Now I'll have DVR (SD) for my Directv and (SD/HD) DVR for OTA. Might even help reduce some of the conflict/load on my UTV. So Win-Win.

Floydage

04-02-10, 10:25 AM

Darn but excellent info, a good ref post for me. I was interested in the used side due to $ but your pgh 1 and the HD issue killed that idea; I should have thought about the HD issue with as many PC drives that have died on me (the EE in me hates the darn things and can't wait until they go purely electronic in a practical manner).

Ouch, just looked at Kmart.com and the DTVPal DVR is $300. Is CM taking over this DVR expected to be a bad thing? $100 or more doesn't sound that bad vs $300.

Speaking of host channel issues, reminds me of the apparent lack of extended PSIP data out there. Seems like many of us wanted those CECBs that are capable of displaying greater then one day's worth of info.

lgodave

04-02-10, 11:52 AM

Ebay has some for under $300 shipped so if you wish to go that route. I think Rammitinski was saying it was going to $400 after a name change.

As an owner/fan of UltimateTV DVR I can understand the oddity of different names/looks and a significant price change. Even if the product is basically identical. RCA UTVs were fairly cheap and plentiful... Sony UTVs were expensive and less easily available. RCA (IMO) actually had the better design (allowed for using two RCA UTVs via a single remote, Remote Feature to Switch off UTV's RF output not available on Sony, RCA UTV Keyboard was fully functional UTV Remote (sold separately), Sony's was just a WebTV keyboard (included).)

Besides these and some cosmetic differences the price difference was likely all based on Brand Name/Market.

Rammitinski

04-02-10, 02:45 PM

Now I'll have DVR (SD) for my Directv and (SD/HD) DVR for OTA. Might even help reduce some of the conflict/load on my UTV.That's similar to what I have. I'm using my Panny EH75V with Dish network SD, and a TiVo HD (w/lifetime fee - got the TiVo for $150.00) for OTA HD (was using a Sony DHG-HDD500 before that).

The way the Panny works with Dish is neat, though. You initially set things up through the recorder's TVGOS menu for "Dish Network". Then, you use the Dish guide to schedule recordings through (the TVGOS grid on the recorder remains blank, and is never needed to be brought up for any reason, anyway). The recorder "senses" an on/off signal from the tuner, and records the shows precisely everytime. No IR blaster needed to change the channels, because the tuner does that on it's own. The recordings are also titled. (You can "pad" the recordings in the Dish guide, or even still just set them manually if you'd prefer - they'll still be titled. It is "name-based", though, just like the Pal DVR, so if the title's wrong, it's wrong.)

It's almost exactly like actually using a DTVPal DVR (only SD, of course), especially since the guide software on my older Dish tuner (the 322) is remarkably close to the Pal's. Actually, the setup's been 100% reliable - which is more than I can say for the Pal DVR itself (the Panny EH75V is one of the most highly-regarded HDD/DVD recorders ever made - and for good reason. It's "brother", the EH55, works the same way with Dish. I have a brand new one of those stashed away, too).

By the way - it is $100.00 more for the Channel Master version - meaning $400.00. But you do get a 1-year warranty as opposed to the Pal's 90 days. Still, the 2-year extended warranty from Kmart is only 25 or 30 dollars, so it's much cheaper to go with that if you want added protection (and with the Pal, I usually recommend it - your decision, though. If you guys are EE's, I can see you not wanting it). There shouldn't be any differences otherwise between the two models, though, and Echostar stopped issuing new software updates for it awhile ago - so I wouldn't expect anything new with the CM version in that regard.

lgodave

04-02-10, 05:05 PM

Well I'm crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

Floydage

04-02-10, 05:52 PM

I went dyslexic and saw it as 'for $100.00 or more.' :o

keyboard21

04-03-10, 08:19 PM

Only problem is, there are no standalone DVD or HDD recorders made anymore with both TVGOS and IR blasters. And getting one of these two "converter" boxes to work with the old TVGOS recorders is spotty at best. There have probably been more unsuccessful attempts than satisfactory ones reported here (I don't know if you can call that "false advertising", though, as it's probably more the host channel's fault than anything else).

The only recent recorders that have IR blasters out there are the tunerless Panny DMR-EA18 (DVD) and EA38 (DVD/VCR combo). The Panny EZ28, which has a built-in ATSC tuner (but no IR blaster), is only about $25.00 more than the EA18. Along with the Magnavox H2160A HDD/DVD recorder, those are about the best of what's available for basic recording out there. But no guides.

If you want something with a guide (for OTA), and one that you can set recordings through, you'd really be much better off spending the money on a DTVPal DVR than an old, well-worn TVGOS HDD/DVD recorder, where it'll probably cost you at least as much, and you never know what you're getting, from the dodgy likes of ebay or whatever. (If you're at all interested in the Pal DVR, I'd suggest you don't wait too long and order one from Kmart.com, because it's soon going to be discontinued under the Dish name and sold only under the "Channel Master" brand name - for $100.00 more.)
Can you buy and pick it up at a KMART/SEARS or is it mail order only?

Floydage

04-04-10, 09:50 AM

I've found that a lot of major retailer websites have a function to check store availability too after selecting a store(s), usually zip code initiated. Of course at that price many ship for free (greater than $50 or $100) but maybe you want to physically check one out first, esp if they hook one up for ya.

When I was looking at CECBs I believe those those two had both in-store and website. I don't trust the in-store inventory check on the websites (poor updating qty) so I would call first before actually driving to pick one up; they'll probably hold it for ya too. GL!

TheKrell

04-29-10, 08:00 PM

If you're at all interested in the Pal DVR, I'd suggest you don't wait too long and order one from Kmart.com, because it's soon going to be discontinued under the Dish name and sold only under the "Channel Master" brand name - for $100.00 more. I think that is right. But Dish through Sears is having a last "hurrah" for $200. (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_05757709000P?origin=prod&aff=Y&keyword=dtvpal&sid=I0084400010000100600) Snap one up while you can!

keyboard21

04-30-10, 03:25 AM

I think that is right. But Dish through Sears is having a last "hurrah" for $200. (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_05757709000P?origin=prod&aff=Y&keyword=dtvpal&sid=I0084400010000100600) Snap one up while you can!

Does not have a button to check if you can get it in a store?

partsman_ba

04-30-10, 01:23 PM

Does not have a button to check if you can get it in a store?

No, you have to call your local stores. Sears is supplying the online orders from a wholesaler in Georgia. See the thread for the DVR here on AVS for (much) more information. This thread is supposed to be for the CECB - let's keep it that way.

partsman_ba

04-30-10, 01:26 PM

So the use of TVGUIDE name is bait and switch. imo If all it does is pass thru

they should say pass thru like the pal does.

They don't just pass through, they convert the TVGOS data for legacy devices (in theory, anyway.) No bait and switch.

phildaant

05-17-10, 12:35 AM

So far so no crashes/hangs. I guess a default factory reset was needed. :)

3/18/2010 10:00 PM PDT: Still good!Tonight, turning it (before 8:00 PM PDT) on manually resulted a hang. It doesn't even do the download datas. I had to unplug for an hour to make it boot up again. :( I hope I don't have to reset again. Almost three months of uptime. :(

ucmerick

05-25-10, 05:26 PM

They don't just pass through, they convert the TVGOS data for legacy devices (in theory, anyway.) No bait and switch.

When I was setting up my Panasonic E85H and the Pal, I contacted Macromedia, Echostar and Panasonic quite a few times. The Pals (either the CECB or the DVR) do not do any direct TVGOS data conversion. They just do the analog conversion of the digital signal. The digital signal contains two TVGOS data streams: one for new digital TVGOS devices and one for the old analog TVGOS devices which is read correctly by those devices after the signal conversion to analog using the alternate (post conversion) zip code. The analog TVGOS channels are now a small subset of those available before the digital conversion.

partsman_ba

05-26-10, 04:59 PM

The Pals (either the CECB or the DVR) do not do any direct TVGOS data conversion. They just do the analog conversion of the digital signal. The digital signal contains two TVGOS data streams: one for new digital TVGOS devices and one for the old analog TVGOS devices which is read correctly by those devices after the signal conversion to analog using the alternate (post conversion) zip code. The analog TVGOS channels are now a small subset of those available before the digital conversion.

Got you - they don't convert the current digital data, they convert the legacy analog data (which has been digitized.) :eek:

ucmerick

06-03-10, 12:51 PM

Got you - they don't convert the current digital data, they convert the legacy analog data (which has been digitized.) :eek:

Don't confuse digital signal transmission with data stream decoding (specific conversion and/or use). The reception of the (analog) TVGOS data stream is path independent to the (analog) TVGOS device. Whether the required data stream was broadcast in a digital or analog transmission is irrelevant. Only that an (analog) device receives the (analog) data stream. The data stream means nothing to the Pal - it does not even "see" it in the transmission. It just converts the digital broadcast (transmission) signal which contains it to analog and indirectly converts it also since it is one of several data streams (like SAP, CC etc.) contained in the transmission signal. It does not specifically decode or convert the analog TVGOS (or the others) directly and it is not even aware of it (them) since it is not an end user (decoder) of the particular data stream(s).

tmwalsh0

06-03-10, 04:37 PM

ucmerick 6658:
"It does not specifically decode or convert the analog TVGOS (or the others) directly and it is not even aware of it (them) since it is not an end user (decoder) of the particular data stream(s)."

Well... It does do something as it no longer works as a normal ATSC tuner the same when in TVGOS mode. You have no remote control to change channels, etc. The TVGOS enabled recording devices end up controlling the DTVpal based on the TVGOS information they received and parsed, and the user interface to record desired broadcasts. The 'blaster' from the recorder tells the DTVpal what to do and when.
I think. Maybe. perhaps...
tom

ucmerick

06-04-10, 10:57 AM

The Pal is slaved to the recorder. In TVGOS mode it is only controlled by the IR blaster. (If it gets a remote signal it asks if you want to end TVGOS mode.) All TVGOS data is read by the recorder and used to change channels according to its settings and to scan the TVGOS data channel for the info updates. (Panasonic units must be tuned to the TVGOS channel first thing after initiating the TVGOS mode in the Pal so the recorder knows which channel contains the TVGOS data stream.)

partsman_ba

06-04-10, 05:44 PM

Don't confuse digital signal transmission with data stream decoding (specific conversion and/or use). The reception of the (analog) TVGOS data stream is path independent to the (analog) TVGOS device. Whether the required data stream was broadcast in a digital or analog transmission is irrelevant. Only that an (analog) device receives the (analog) data stream. The data stream means nothing to the Pal - it does not even "see" it in the transmission. It just converts the digital broadcast (transmission) signal which contains it to analog and indirectly converts it also since it is one of several data streams (like SAP, CC etc.) contained in the transmission signal. It does not specifically decode or convert the analog TVGOS (or the others) directly and it is not even aware of it (them) since it is not an end user (decoder) of the particular data stream(s).

So, if it just converts the signal indirectly, like SAP or CC, why then doesn't every other CECB convert the TVGOS signal to something your Panny can use? I think you are incorrect, sir.

Whidbey

06-07-10, 01:53 PM

So, if it just converts the signal indirectly, like SAP or CC, why then doesn't every other CECB convert the TVGOS signal to something your Panny can use?

That's actually an interesting question. Has anyone actually tried another box to see if it was passing along the TVGOS signal to a TVGOS device? Maybe the only thing that separates the DTV-Pal and other "pass along the TVGOS" CECB's is it's ability to be controlled by a TVGOS device like the Panasonic.

ucmerick

06-09-10, 01:39 PM

So, if it just converts the signal indirectly, like SAP or CC, why then doesn't every other CECB convert the TVGOS signal to something your Panny can use? I think you are incorrect, sir.

Yes, all converters will convert the digital broadcast signal to analog with the included analog TVGOS data stream intact. But, without channel control of the CECB by the DVR when the DVR is off and in TVGOS acquisition mode, the guide information cannot be properly accessed on the carrier channel and downloaded (which is why a slaved CECB must be on 24/7). There are only a couple of CECBs that can be controlled in this manner and act as a TVGOS slave to an analog TVGOS DVR. (Of course, the remote control is also used when the DVR is on since the CECB replaces the obsolete analog tuner for all tuner operations.) That is why I have DTVPals on my two Panasonics. (My two DTVPal DVRs could also do it, but that would be ridiculous!)

partsman_ba

06-10-10, 02:51 PM

Yes, all converters will convert the digital broadcast signal to analog with the included analog TVGOS data stream intact.

Which CECBs have you verified this with? You are the first person I have heard make this statement.

ucmerick

06-10-10, 04:09 PM

Which CECBs have you verified this with? You are the first person I have heard make this statement.

The DTVpal is the same as every other CECB with respect to the digital to analog conversion. They all have the same specifications set by the industry and government. Only a few models are capable of supporting analog TVGOS for a DVR which is only the ability of a CECB to be put into a continuous 24/7 mode and allow the analog DVR to change its channel using an IR blaster. (Any use of the DTVpal remote while it is in this mode triggers a menu asking for confirmation that you want to end TVGOS support mode. Except for this, it is only controlled by the DVR through the IR blaster.) And remember only a small group of people use this TVGOS support capability. It makes sense that the CECB output is the same for all units regardless of TVGOS support or not. Also the DVR does not know that the analog signal is being converted from digital to analog. It sees the same exact thing it saw before the transition (though there is less TVGOS info for fewer channels since the transition). This is an analog broadcast signal with the (also) analog TVGOS data stream imbedded in it. There was never any requirement for special TVGOS conversion by any CECB. The analog DVR just needs to be able to change channels at any time whether in either an "on" or "standby" state according to its programming to tune the proper channel or access and download the TVGOS data.

partsman_ba

06-11-10, 09:28 AM

So, your answer to my question is "none"?

DANIELTNIEVES

06-17-10, 01:29 PM

phildaant

06-17-10, 01:51 PM

Hi,
I read your avs forum issue where the dtvpal converter box would turn on 30 minutes later that it was set to come on. Sometimes mine comes on right, but at times it's 5,6, or 35 minutes later that the timer was set for, and the pal is picking up the correct local time. Did you ever figure out a solution to the late timer problem?

Dan Nieves (danieltnieves@yahoo.com)Have you tried scheduling daily for it to be in used? I have it on more than four hours a day. This solves most of the problems for me. If not, then try resetting back to defaults and doing a daily schedule. Basically, use it often!

Floydage

06-17-10, 09:18 PM

Does it have a manual clock setting that can be relied upon? Some of these stations send out clock data that is way off.

Scooper

06-17-10, 10:05 PM

Does it have a manual clock setting that can be relied upon? Some of these stations send out clock data that is way off.

No - the only clock data is what it receives from the stations.

Hopefully, your area has a TVGOS station - if you do , the DTVPAL will use that as it's primary time server.

keyboard21

06-18-10, 01:19 AM

phildaant

06-20-10, 09:52 AM

I am not sure you guys know or Care, but Since people here were so kind to me. I just wanted to let you know that the DTVPAL DVR is dis-continued. Sears is fire sale them for $150

It is very similar to the DTVpal Plus. With added features and a DVR

If you want more details feel free to PM me.

I just thought you guys would want to know. Just trying to return the kindness shown to me here.

have a great Day!Is DTV Pal Plus reliable (not buggy)? I don't like the regular DTV Pal since it likes to lock up sometimes. I want stability like my old VCRs! Can I use it again if I get a HDTV later on for true HD feeds (who knows when) or is it only for SDTV feeds?

Floydage

06-20-10, 01:00 PM

Is DTV Pal Plus reliable (not buggy)? I don't like the regular DTV Pal since it likes to lock up sometimes. I want stability like my old VCRs! Can I use it again if I get a HDTV later on for true HD feeds (who knows when) or is it only for SDTV feeds?

I think he was refering to the DVR which is HD. The Plus is a PAL with an upgraded tuner. All to the best of my knowledge as I don't own either one.

I've been monitoring the link in this thread for any deals at Sears on the DVR although it's been out of service for me this weekend:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18567489#post18567489

partsman_ba

06-21-10, 12:51 PM

Is DTV Pal Plus reliable (not buggy)? I don't like the regular DTV Pal since it likes to lock up sometimes. I want stability like my old VCRs! Can I use it again if I get a HDTV later on for true HD feeds (who knows when) or is it only for SDTV feeds?

Yes, the Pal + is the same box as the Pal/TR40 with a Microtune tuner instead of a Thompson. Check out the wayback machine:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15140367#post15140367

keyboard21

06-22-10, 12:27 PM

Is DTV Pal Plus reliable (not buggy)? I don't like the regular DTV Pal since it likes to lock up sometimes. I want stability like my old VCRs! Can I use it again if I get a HDTV later on for true HD feeds (who knows when) or is it only for SDTV feeds?

Well you can read the DVR board. But from what I read. When DTVpal DVR first came out it had Firmware 201. Which is like the PALs 101 firmware. THe DVR was buggy and sucked. Most things were fixed with FREE updates that the DVR could download or it had a USB port to install software updates. By version 206 most things were fixed. The last update was version 208. So is this box now 100% unbuggy? NOPE! It is MUCH better then first version? YEP!

So no guarantees. But the box is discontinued and if you want firesale price you need to call your local sears and give them the item number 57709. You will need to make your decision ASAP. These boxes are harder and harder to get. Unless you want KMART (owned by sears) They sell online only for $289. Or the new channelmaster Which is made by echostar (dish) and sells for $400 but you can get it for $350 on Amazon. No improvements were made in the copy.

I got one (DTVPAL DVR) For $150 and I also got the 2 year Store credit warranty for $22.

GLTY

keyboard21

06-22-10, 12:31 PM

Is DTV Pal Plus reliable (not buggy)? I don't like the regular DTV Pal since it likes to lock up sometimes. I want stability like my old VCRs! Can I use it again if I get a HDTV later on for true HD feeds (who knows when) or is it only for SDTV feeds?

Opps I just relized I read your question wrong. I saw my quote and thought you were asking about Dish DVr.

To answer your question yes. We have two Dishpals Not including the new DVR.

One is the version 101 and the other is the PLUS with version 106. It is LESS buggy but still locks up just less often. I also got no extra channels with the new processor.

partsman_ba

06-22-10, 02:41 PM

That's actually an interesting question. Has anyone actually tried another box to see if it was passing along the TVGOS signal to a TVGOS device? Maybe the only thing that separates the DTV-Pal and other "pass along the TVGOS" CECB's is it's ability to be controlled by a TVGOS device like the Panasonic.

I decided to pose this question to the experts on the TVGOS thread here at AVS.

Yes, all converters will convert the digital broadcast signal to analog with the included analog TVGOS data stream intact.

Wrong. Actually, you can even verify this with your own equipment as mabuttra did:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18808546#post18808546

Rammitinski

06-22-10, 02:42 PM

One big difference (at least between the 101 and 105 I had, and all 105/106's are *supposed* to work that way), is that 105/106 (which the Pal Plus has) locks onto the CBS time signal and displays it consistently across all channels (which in theory, I guess, is supposed to keep the timer recordings accurate).

But keybord's right about the buginess. If it didn't have bugs, it wouldn't be a Pal.

Rammitinski

06-22-10, 02:45 PM

Wrong. Actually, you can even verify this with your own equipment as mabuttra did:As far as I know, you are right that he is wrong. Those two models are the only ones that will do it (I don't know how it actually works, so don't ask me).

keyboard21

06-23-10, 09:14 AM

Floydage

06-27-10, 01:34 PM

I've been monitoring the link in this thread for any deals at Sears on the DVR although it's been out of service for me this weekend:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18567489#post18567489

That link came back to life for me and shows a refurb DVR for $105 somewhere in NJ for anyone interested.

phildaant

06-29-10, 12:31 AM

Ugh, my DTV Pal froze again tonight when it was scheduled to turn on minutes before 8:00 PM PDT for KNBC4.1's Persons Unknown. I wonder if I found a new pattern with changing scheduler. I deleted a bunch of old schedules and started a new one over the weekend. I recalled doing something similiar in the past, and this happened too. Has anyone noticed that too or am I going crazy?

And oops, I forgot my question in this forum thread. So, it looks like the DVR one won't help much for my issues. I think I will look for another brand and model, for DVR, since I am unhappy with its DTV Pal scheduler+converter box. :(

visualsensation

07-05-10, 11:31 AM

There's really no point complaining about this box anymore, because it's been discontinued and all support has been dropped. The same can be said for the Zinwell Zat, which was the only other brand that I'm aware that had timers.

I used both brands and got so frustrated that I broke down and got a DTVPal DVR. It's quite a bit of money and has reliability/longevity issues of its own but (by default, sadly) it's now the most economical choice if you want to record OTA without babysitting it. It's now being manufactured with Channelmaster branding and a price of $300-$400, but if you're lucky enough you can find a few remaining DTVPal branded units at Sears for under $200. If you want a rock solid recording option, you're going to have to shell out at least $700 for a Tivo with lifetime subscription.

Everyone was hoping there would be more options once analog shutdown, but nothing has materialized. The market just isn't big enough I guess.

phildaant

07-05-10, 01:15 PM

...Everyone was hoping there would be more options once analog shutdown, but nothing has materialized. The market just isn't big enough I guess. [sighs] :(

Rammitinski

07-05-10, 06:05 PM

If you want a rock solid recording option, you're going to have to shell out at least $700 for a Tivo with lifetime subscription.
People missed a good chance a few weeks back. For those who were keeping track (around here, and in the official, TiVo.com forum, at least - it was mentioned on the DTV Pal DVR thread here, for one), TiVo.com was selling refurbished TiVo HD's for $150.00 (but that particular model is gone from the site now).

It's too bad, because the OTA tuner in the TiVo HD has actually been reported to be more sensitive than the one in the newer, "Premiere" model.

That, plus the lifetime fee, would've only come to $550.00 ($148.00 is what I paid for mine at Sears on clearance over a year ago. Actually, many were more likely at the time to find them for only $99.00. Some were basically unused floor models, but many were brand new-in-box, too.).

phildaant

07-05-10, 06:11 PM

For those who were keeping track (around here, at least - it was mentioned on the DTV Pal DVR thread, for one), TiVo.com was selling refurbished TiVo HD's for $150.00 a few weeks back (but that particular model is long gone now - probably the very last we'll see of that model for that price, unfortunately, other than maybe on "take-a-chance-bay").

That, plus the lifetime fee, would've only come to $550.00.Still too expensive for my budget. I really wished it didn't have subscription requirement. I use my DTV Pal and VCR to manually set scheduled record which I don't mind. I don't need its TV guides since I have the Internet. I don't even use the one in my DTV Pal. :D

Rammitinski

07-05-10, 06:32 PM

Still too expensive for my budget. I really wished it didn't have subscription requirement.Understood. I was just mainly adding to his "if you want a rock solid recording option" comment, for those of whom that would be a priority (not that it matters now, because the deal's past, anyway. But I was just pointing out to those people that it might help to keep abreast of that stuff closer, so they don't miss out on it. I don't expect to see any more deals on the TiVo HD like that anymore, though).

phildaant

07-05-10, 07:00 PM

Understood. I was just mainly adding to his "if you want a rock solid recording option" comment, for those of whom that would be a priority (not that it matters now, because the deal's past, anyway. But I was just pointing out to those people that it might help to keep abreast of that stuff closer, so they don't miss out on it. I don't expect to see any more deals on the TiVo HD like that anymore, though).Yeah. I don't even need a fancy and reliable DVR/recorder setup anyways. I like it simple and reliable like my old VCRs. They did fine and were reliable for me (still using the same old VHS tape for many years!).

Rammitinski

07-05-10, 07:04 PM

Yeah. I don't even need a fancy DVR setup anyways. I like it simple like my old VCRs. They did fine and were reliable for me (still using the same old VHS tape for many years!).Since you really have no need for a built-in program guide, and it sounds like you're OK with SD (mentioning the VCR - if your TV is HD, you could always split the signal to watch that live, assuming it has an ATSC tuner), how about the Magnavox H2160? When recording from it's ATSC tuner, it's generally more reliable than the Pal DVR (clear-QAM can be a little futzy for some).

That hard drive recorder is very reasonably-priced (with a DVD recorder thrown in to boot).

(Or, maybe you already have one and I just don't remember - I don't really read the threads on that model that faithfully. I can never keep track of who participates in those threads and who doesn't.)

phildaant

07-05-10, 07:11 PM

Since you really have no need for a built-in program guide, and it sounds like you're OK with SD (mentioning the VCR), how about the Magnavox H2160? When recording from it's ATSC tuner, it's generally more reliable than the Pal DVR (clear-QAM can be a little futzy for some)...I will check it out if I need to replace it.

I am currently waiting for my old 20" CRT TV (from 1996) and/or VCR to go bust before I replace it/them. If my DTV Pal goes bust, then I will get another converter box that does recorder. Hopefully they make one that does both SD and HD so I can reuse it if I ever get a HDTV whenever that is. Basically, I am using old stuff and then replaced whenever they break. DTV Convert box was forced due to FCC. :P

Rammitinski

07-05-10, 07:15 PM

Yeah, it's OK to pair with either an old SDTV, or even sometimes a small-ish HD one (but I personally would never use it on an HDTV larger than 26" - you'll get arguments about that on the threads for it, but I'm pretty discriminating myself. I'd probably be more inclined to even try a Pal DVR on a TV larger than that first).

Don't wait for a DVD recorder that will also do HD from it's tuner, though, if that's what you're saying. You'll never see that. The non-hard drive, Panasonic EZ-28 has very, very good, downscaled HD PQ from it's tuner, but that's about as good as you'll get, and it'll never be true HD.

phildaant

07-05-10, 07:18 PM

Yeah, it's OK to pair with either an old SDTV, or even sometimes a small-ish HD one (but I personally would never use it on an HDTV larger than 26" - you'll get arguments about that on the threads for it, but I'm pretty discriminating myself).Heh, I doubt I will get anything bigger than 20". Maybe 21" since my room and desk are tiny. Also, anything taller would prevent me to open and close my windows swinging shudder doors. :( Anyways, we'll deal with the replacements later on whenever that is. No point of looking now since technology is changing. Oh and no 3DTVs! My eyes can't see 3D effects. :P

Rammitinski

07-05-10, 07:25 PM

I have a 19", cheapo-cheapo, 720p Dynex LCD in my bedroom (which actually outperforms it's price point by a mile), and I honestly can't even tell the difference when it switches between HD and SD most of the time - it's that sharp.

Of course, that's from it's internal, ATSC tuner. But I have hooked up my older, SD HDD/DVD recorders to it in the past, and they still look very good on it, too.

As far as 3D, I have absolutely zero interest in it, too. It looks like moving, one-dimensional, cardboard cut-outs to me (animation looks OK enough, I guess - but I'd mainly be interested in it for sports, with live human beings moving around in it). Just doesn't look natural enough - not to mention the goofy, large, heavy, uncomfortable glasses.

phildaant

07-05-10, 07:40 PM

Rammitinski

07-05-10, 07:54 PM

(just wished my 13 months old converter box was stable). ;)If you could've gotten by with just recording from a couple of OTA channels unattended (and weren't going to be away from home that long), it would've been better to have just gotten a couple of Zenith CECB's, daisy-chained them together through RF, and set recordings from them through separate line inputs.

That was the problem - that the only couple of boxes with timers weren't all that great with reliability.

phildaant

07-05-10, 08:04 PM

If you could've gotten by with just recording from a couple of OTA channels unattended (and weren't going to be away from home that long), it would've been better to have just gotten a couple of Zenith CECB's, daisy-chained them together through RF, and set recordings from them through separate line inputs.

That was the problem - that the only couple of boxes with timers weren't all that great with reliability.Yeah, I noticed my parents' Zeinth converter boxes were more reliable but then they didn't have schedulers and complexities. I do have a lot of OTA channels and schedules. :( I cannot even get all TV shows on my list. I have to reserve one to do daily fiveh ours power on to avoid the hang/freeze so I only have four slots for scheduling my TV shows. I usually schedule the ones I know I am not at home.

Rammitinski

07-05-10, 08:09 PM

Too bad you couldn't afford TiVo then. You wouldn't really have to worry about that. I think with the Maggie you can schedule quite a lot of recordings (30-something, maybe?).

phildaant

07-05-10, 08:14 PM

Too bad you couldn't afford TiVo then. You wouldn't really have to worry about that. I think with the Maggie you can schedule quite a lot of recordings (30-something, maybe?).30? Wow. No wonder it's so expensive. ;)

Funny, my current, old VCR can do six recordings! Stupid DTV Pal with their bugs and having me to sacrificing a schedule slot. All of my TV shows are weekly based so it's not like I can use that one slot to power on for five hours daily. At least FOX Sunday nights are from 8:00 PM to 10:00 PM (don't watch Cleveland Show though -- but I am OK to record it to keep it up nonstop).

Rammitinski

07-05-10, 08:20 PM

30? Wow. No wonder it's so expensive. ;)No, I was talking about the Magnavox when I said that - that's relatively inexpensive, especially as far as HDD/DVD recorders go. You can get them refurbished from J&R World for under $200.00.

I don't know what the exact limit is offhand on the TiVo - I've never scheduled more than a few things at a time on mine. I actually schedule more recordings on my SD Panasonic EH75V than I do on my TiVo HD (there's one, particular SD channel on Dish that I record a lot of programming from using the Panny. I've got about 3 recordings per day set for that channel with it right now. I currently don't even have anything set to record "regularly" on the TiVo).

Just like with the Pal, you can upgrade the hard drives on both the TiVo and the Magnavox.

phildaant

07-05-10, 08:22 PM

No, I was talking about the Magnavox when I said that - that's relatively inexpensive, especially as far as HDD/DVD recorders go. You can get them refurbished from J&R World for under $200.00.

I don't know what the exact limit is offhand on the TiVo - I've never scheduled more than a few things at a time on mine.Oh. I will look into it deeper when I need to replace my current DTV Pal and/or VCR. ;)

phildaant

07-05-10, 10:09 PM

Stupid DTV Pal hung again when it was supposed to turn on tonight and when I manually turned it on. Same exact problem last Monday night. I think I am going to tell it to reset to defaults and set it up again from scratch. ANNOYING! :(

equivocal

07-06-10, 01:25 AM

For event timers there's also the TACB-2009 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1196160) which almost went completely unnoticed.

Floydage

07-06-10, 11:05 AM

For event timers there's also the TACB-2009 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1196160) which almost went completely unnoticed.

That's right, there are (still?) a couple of TACB boxes but with poor marketing, few here knew anything about them until ironically the coupons just expired. Feature-rich box(s) but little review and even less reliability feedback on yonder AVS thread. Looks great on paper and per the one or two who posted their results.

Would a TVGOS-featured box do the trick? I recall Artec makes one and I believe are still for sale on Meritline.com or somesuch site. I liked what I saw inside those Artecs from a design&mfging standpoint. Zenith/Insignia clones too.

equivocal

07-07-10, 01:19 AM

Shhhh! I was hoping phildaant might rush out and buy one and post even more details. :)

Unless phildaant has a TVGOS VCR I don't think a TVGOS converter box will help. But a month with a HDD/DVD recorder and that VCR will be a doorstop.

Floydage

07-07-10, 11:11 AM

Unless phildaant has a TVGOS VCR I don't think a TVGOS converter box will help.

Well was more of a general/for me question. VCRs are almost free in the used universe.

keyboard21

07-11-10, 11:57 PM

Well was more of a general/for me question. VCRs are almost free in the used universe.

Got a good place to find them?

phildaant

07-12-10, 07:51 AM

Well was more of a general/for me question. VCRs are almost free in the used universe.I see a lot of people selling/getting rid of VCRs for cheap/free. Check garage sales as good sources. ;)

As for TVGOS. I don't think so? When did TVGOS start? I have had my Toshiba W-627 VCR like a decade old? VCR's manual, in http://www.fixya.com/support/p202388-toshiba_w627_vcr/manual-5900 , showed nothing when I search "TVGOS" and "guide" keywords separately.

Amazingly, my VCR still works so far. I wonder how much longer. The last VCR I had before this one broke with its VHS tape getting stuck (didn't care for it), so I bought this one back when TiVo was new during dotcom days. Funny how it is still expensive and still wants subscription. MEH!

Floydage

07-12-10, 03:18 PM

Got a good place to find them?

Some confusion on my part, as phil questioned I don't think VCRs had TVGOS capability. Just TVs and other recorder types.

But as far as looking for used goodies I use Craigslist for local (pick-up) areas and Ebay for anything I'm willing to pay to ship.

Ebay has a good seach engine. Did you know that great deals can be found by typing in common misspellings?

Craigslist search is barebones. If you type in too much info you won't find anything, too little and you're looking through ads for hours. Also, I've learned to search in the "all for sale / wanted" category to avoid having to search in several different categories (some folks put stuff in the darndest categories!). I sent them a request to ad highlighting for search words but no response (it's a pain when an ad has a list of 100 different items, esp in a big jumbled pgh). Of course there's always the "free stuff" category but the good stuff goes fast.

Rammitinski

07-13-10, 01:08 AM

Some confusion on my part, as phil questioned I don't think VCRs had TVGOS capability. Just TVs and other recorder types.There were some VCR's that had it, only it was called "Guide Plus+" back then.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Gemstar's+Plus%2B+Interactive+Program+Guide+Currently+Availa ble...-a055407441

(Note the second sentence of the 12th paragraph.)

Floydage

07-13-10, 09:28 AM

There were some VCR's that had it, only it was called "Guide Plus+" back then.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Gemstar's+Plus%2B+Interactive+Program+Guide+Currently+Availa ble...-a055407441

(Note the second sentence of the 12th paragraph.)

Interesting as someone on these threads said it never happened and there's no mention on this Wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guide_Plus

But I see one specific model (Sony SLV-M20HF) mentioned otherwise it's all TVs. So I'm not sure if they're talking about exactly the same thing in that sentence (maybe an older version of EPG?). Anyhow, maybe a needle in a haystack but you've proven it does exist in some VCRs. Thanks!

I have a Sony VCR Plus+ VCR. I wish I had an easy way to decode&recode the timeslot info with the channel set to L1.

Rammitinski

07-13-10, 01:46 PM

Yeah, I saw the Wiki article first, and I also noticed that they didn't mention them, so I continued to look for something that did mention it, because I was absolutely positive that there were some VCRs with it.

It was an older version of TVGOS, and was specifically called "Guide Plus+ Gold/Silver" in the VCR. It wasn't put into a lot of them like "VCR Plus+" was (which I think even had their own versions of "Gold" and "Silver") - just some higher end models of brands like Sony, Panasonic and RCA, back at the tail end of when "good" VCR's were still being manufactured.

Maybe I can dredge up some specs of the models online. I used to have Crutchfield catalogs that listed the Sony's and Panasonic's, but they're long gone now. The Kmart here carried one of the RCA's, and I used to look at it all the time. I really wanted one of the models, but I was dirt poor back then and the better brands that I preferred cost upwards of $300.00 (the Crutchfield prices were retail).

Floydage

07-14-10, 07:23 PM

Well I'm glad you had the conviction to prove it as I had given up. Now when I get a chance I'll do some searches on "Guide Plus+ VCR" and I bet some old models will show up. I had previously searched using "TVGOS VCR" and that was probably my downfall. Ironically I threw out an old Crutchfield catalog collecting dust not that long ago. :(

At least we know of one Sony. I'm not crazy about that Thomson Consumer Electronics (RCA, GE, ?) crud after having several problems right after warranty expired on an RCA Home Theater TV and a GE TV. Lots of soldering problems way back when. The GE is still kicking though after resoldering the entire tuner section (tuner is still flaky though but with the CECBs I don't have to use the tuner anymore except for as a VCR CH 3 quick-monitor). I miss the old 'RCA' RCAs, still have an old working knob style in a spare room, I think a 1983 model.

I love my Sony VCR. Got it from my neighbor who's always buying new stuff. He said it worked fine but it wouldn't do SP at all and EP was flaky so I set it aside for a year until my Hitachi started getting worn down. Turned out to be a rivet washer had slid down a post holding a tape tensioner assembly to the chassis - I'm guessing he dropped the VCR after he disconnected it.

theaveng

07-14-10, 07:39 PM

Funny, my current, old VCR can do six recordings! Stupid DTV Pal with their bugs and having me to sacrificing a schedule slot. . I thought the DTVpal "plus" model fixed all those bugs? Or are they still present?

My old Digital-VHS VCR had somewhere around 50 slots. And it included a DTV tuner built-in but not very sensitive. It's a shame JVC stopped making D-VHS because it was more capable than any of the DVD Recorders. Oh well.

tmwalsh0

07-14-10, 08:18 PM

Floydage

07-15-10, 09:12 AM

Floydage 6712:
I have a Toshiba VHS that has "VCRplus+ w/cable channel changer" on the front panel and wants to know what the Guide channel is in setup. Not sure what that means...
Model M-683
There are more out there if you are looking for them.
tom

I've never used VCR Plus+ because it's obsolete in my Sony VCR with only an analog tuner (i.e. the Plus code would tune it to an analog channel). I doubt it ever came with a digital tuner in a VCR. Does your Toshiba have a digital tuner?
Now the "cable channel changer" part of it may be useful if it can be set to channel L1, L2, 3, or 4 for the Plus code timeslots (my Sony doesn't have that function so I don't know).

We are looking for something called Guide Plus+ with VCRs, an older version of TVGOS.

tmwalsh0

07-15-10, 10:07 AM

Nope, analog only. Built like a tank, but obsolete as they say.
tom

Rammitinski

07-15-10, 03:37 PM

Well I'm glad you had the conviction to prove it as I had given up. Now when I get a chance I'll do some searches on "Guide Plus+ VCR" and I bet some old models will show up.I've been searching for well over an hour, and I haven't had any luck at all. Now I'm beginning to think I'm nuts, but I'm still pretty sure I wasn't dreaming. Whatever models there were weren't out long. Maybe it actually was just the one Sony model, and possibly also the RCA one I seem to remember.

I did find another, similar article which mentions VCR's coming out with it, but no specific models (it does mention some brand names, but not the types of devices from each):

http://www.allbusiness.com/company-activities-management/company-strategy/7244366-1.html

(The article is geared towards Canada, but later into the article it mentions the US and North American market.)

I'll keep an eye out for any mentions of any of them, but I've about had it searching for now. At least we have evidence of one Sony model. I'm guessing that whatever was out with it, there were probably only a few handfuls of people that actually ever owned them, and not much information online. Being VCR's, they could be long since junked and forgotten by now. Especially a crappy RCA, if there was one (I was hoping to at least come across some old forum post somewhere where someone talked about one, but I could only find TV-related ones).

jjeff

07-15-10, 04:38 PM

I've definitely seen the Sony VCR w/TVGOS(or Guide+). It was at a pawn shop not too long ago and had the IR blaster port but no IR blaster was to be seen.
It would make sense that RCA/Thompson would have had a VCR with TVGOS, they made several mid level TVs with TVGOS. I agree about the better RCAs, I have a '82 RCA VCR(which was actually made by Matsushita(Panasonic)) and it was built like a tank. The Thompson RCAs seem like any other Chinese product. Of course I think you'd have to go way back to find a RCA RCA product.
I had a 12" RCA built B&W TV years ago(50s model) that was build like a tank. Of course almost everything back then was built like a tank:D

theaveng

07-15-10, 06:18 PM

I have a Toshiba VHS that has "VCRplus+ w/cable channel changer" on the front panel and wants to know what the Guide channel is in setup. It's probably the CBS channel. Or it could be PBS. However since analog is dead there's no longer anything for the VCR to "see" on either of those channels.

Floydage

07-15-10, 06:32 PM

I've been too swamped to look but it could be the archive info is too old to be found on the ol' 'net.

My TVs showed Thomson as US/Canadian (has both on each side of the sticker). Assembled in Bloomington, Indiana but I think the guts were from Mexico. Seems I recall something about Thomson being French though (?).

TalkingRat

07-15-10, 07:18 PM

Floydage 6712:
I have a Toshiba VHS that has "VCRplus+ w/cable channel changer" on the front panel and wants to know what the Guide channel is in setup. Not sure what that means...
Model M-683
There are more out there if you are looking for them.
tom

In the VCR Plus+ (no TVGOS) the "cable channel changer" thing is a table you fill in with your local cable channel numbers, lined up with the numbers assigned to stations by the Plus system. The Sunday TV newspaper guide published a list of 'universal' VCR Plus channel numbers. You had to go back and forth in the list when you entered it, as most of it was not numerically sorted. Theoretically you had to line up local cable numbers with universal numbers only once, but if you lost power for awhile, or the cable company moved stuff around, you had to fix it.

Since May, most newspapers don't list Plus codes. You can get them online, but that won't save you any time.

Since my VCR is hooked up to a converter box with timer, I tend to use a single VCR timer on the VCR side of things for all prime time recording, and disable it on the days I don't want to record. Then I only have to fuss with setting a timer for the VCR side if I want to record something outside prime time.

phildaant

07-24-10, 04:45 PM

I thought the DTVpal "plus" model fixed all those bugs? Or are they still present?

My old Digital-VHS VCR had somewhere around 50 slots. And it included a DTV tuner built-in but not very sensitive. It's a shame JVC stopped making D-VHS because it was more capable than any of the DVD Recorders. Oh well.Wow, 50 slots.

I don't know if Plus has these issues fixed, but I do know they can easily upgrade firmwares unlike the regular DTV Pal. :(

Also, I gave my thumb down rating in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1029256&goto=newpost thread for the regular DTV Pal. I noticed Plus got good votes.

keyboard21

08-22-10, 06:07 PM

phildaant

10-19-10, 09:52 AM

partsman_ba

10-20-10, 05:40 PM

phildaant

10-20-10, 06:30 PM

Are you asking what the official "fall back" day is? If so, the answer is November 7, at 2 AM local time.Hmm, last Sunday wasn't it. Related to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17286339#post17286339 ...

Floydage

10-21-10, 08:55 AM

Didn't the gov't shift the date? If so then there may be uncertainty as to which date various electronic equipment uses (hopefully the stations themselves can manually adjust it but...).

phildaant

10-21-10, 08:56 AM

Didn't the gov't shift the date? If so then there may be uncertainty as to which date various electronic equipment uses (hopefully the stations themselves can manually adjust it but...).Yes a few years ago. I recall someone say that this messes up DTVpal or something.

pm3839

11-28-10, 12:33 AM

I noticed my DTV Pal froze again last night. I assume it was related to the time change in pacific time zone. Does anyone know what the exact Sunday date for the time zone to happen for DTV Pal to freeze?

i dont think the freeze-ups have anything to do with the time change....i have used my DTVPAL everyday for at least a few hours for the last ~2 years (i do not have any hdtv's here, the DTVPAL is on my daily use/main tv) and the spring/fall time changes have not been a problem as far as i can tell.....and i use the DTVPAL timer feature almost everyday and it has always worked well....

however, my DTVPAL (firmware version 105) does randomly freeze every so often ....i'm guessing it happens about once every 6 to 8 weeks, i dont keep track of it and it seems to happen totally randomly, for no apparent reason that i can tell.....and if i just let it sit frozen like that it usually fixes itself within 5 or 10 minutes....if i dont want to wait i just un-plug the AC power and that clears up the freeze immediately.....

phildaant

12-25-10, 05:41 PM

i dont think the freeze-ups have anything to do with the time change....i have used my DTVPAL everyday for at least a few hours for the last ~2 years (i do not have any hdtv's here, the DTVPAL is on my daily use/main tv) and the spring/fall time changes have not been a problem as far as i can tell.....and i use the DTVPAL timer feature almost everyday and it has always worked well....

however, my DTVPAL (firmware version 105) does randomly freeze every so often ....i'm guessing it happens about once every 6 to 8 weeks, i dont keep track of it and it seems to happen totally randomly, for no apparent reason that i can tell.....and if i just let it sit frozen like that it usually fixes itself within 5 or 10 minutes....if i dont want to wait i just un-plug the AC power and that clears up the freeze immediately.....Interesting. Mine doesn't always work with the unplugging its power trick. :(

Funny, I got a DTV Pal DVR today for Christmas. :D I will have to check it out. ;) BTW, is this the correct forum thread to talk about DVR version?

Scooper

12-25-10, 07:35 PM

Interesting. Mine doesn't always work with the unplugging its power trick. :(

Funny, I got a DTV Pal DVR today for Christmas. :D I will have to check it out. ;) BTW, is this the correct forum thread to talk about DVR version?

Discussion on the DVR version can be found here -
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15369795#post15369795

Please read post #1 before asking any questions.

phildaant

12-25-10, 07:47 PM

Discussion on the DVR version can be found here -
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15369795#post15369795

Please read post #1 before asking any questions.Thank you and Happy Holidays/Merry Christmas. :)

flor0045

01-02-11, 10:19 PM

My DTVPAL+ cleared all timers on Jan. 1. Anyone else see this?

Retired Texan

01-03-11, 01:03 PM

My DTVPAL+ cleared all timers on Jan. 1. Anyone else see this?
Yes, I encountered New Years timer problem in January 2009 and mentioned it in post #5578. It is a problem that Dish never addressed, even in the F106 version.
I quit trying to use the DTVPAL timers after that. It has worked ok as a tuner for the last two years with only occasional hangs that could be cleared by unplugging it.

Vanr

09-27-11, 06:13 PM

lgodave

09-27-11, 06:34 PM

phildaant

09-27-11, 06:47 PM

Give 6-1 PBS a call... let them know you are having a concern with that channel. They may (or may not) be able to tell you what is up.

You could also try a Factory Reset of the unit and make certain it isn't some "glitch" that would go away with a fresh start.Also try another TV tuner/converter box? How's the signal strength on this channel?

kenavs

09-27-11, 10:51 PM

If I start watching 6-1 (our PBS channel) after about 10 minutes the video freezes for about 3 minutes (audio is OK) then it resets, this ONLY happens on the Denver channel 6-1. This has never happened over the past 2 years, I think that this channel must have started transmitting something that the DTVPAL cant handle?:mad:
Does the same thing happen with 6-3?
If not, then it may be something in the 6-1 data stream that the DTVPAL can't handle.

Does it happen all the time?
If you have only seen it for brief periods, KRMA may have been using the back-up transmitter, which I believe is the infamous "Ice Bridge" antenna, and the signal strength from that thing is spotty for anyone on a line from the transmitter on Mt Morrison (Note:KRMA is not on Lookout Mountain with the Lake Cedar Group) and going through Louisville, which would include parts of Arvada.

I do have a DTVPAL, but it is connected to an old analog TV that I have not turned on in over a year.
I have not noticed any issues involving 6-1 lately on any of my other tuners.
If you report that the problem happens all the time, and you can explain what you mean by "it resets", I can see if my DTVPAL and that TV still work, and see if I can also see the problem. If the problem happens all the time and can be seen in different areas, the Station Engineering may be more willing to investigate.

doswonk1

12-29-11, 05:36 PM

I gave my brother a TR40 during the transition. He used it a bit and said it kept overheating and shutting down, so he gave it back to me.

I was one of the first folks to get an original DTVPal when it came out, used it extensively and never had such a problem. My brother has a lot of reception problems--any box he uses stuggles to lock onto some channels. I'm wondering if that's what was causing his TR40 to overheat, kind of like the way my cell phone runs down its battery trying to get a lock on a signal when I'm in the building at work.

So 2 questions: (1) have any other TR40/DTVPal users had a similar problem? (2) I'm willing to drill some cooling holes into the housing; anybody know how to separate the two halves of the housing?

Rammitinski

12-29-11, 08:18 PM

You're probably the only person I've ever heard of who didn't have at least some kind of problem with the DTVPal's original firmware (101).

By the last version (105 - actually, by 103), it was much better, but the initial state of release was pretty problematic.

I don't think it was so much the heat issue, because to my remembrance, that never really changed - at least much, if at all. It was more general bugginess. If the surrounding area heat is that bad, you probably should have the box placed in as cool a place as possible. Maybe even have a fan on it - because I know it does get pretty darned hot, particularly at the coax connection point. Can barely even touch the metal there.

However, I'm sure the self-added holes could only help, at least with the lastingness, if for no other reason, if applied carefully. If you look back to earlier in this thread, I'm sure there's plenty of detail on how to do it.

I don't think not capturing a solid hold on a signal would cause the unit to overheat - but it could have something to do with shutting it down.