Hello to All,

I have a problem... I was all set to purchase the new Sony SR-12 (releasing in 2 weeks)...120GB recording for HD... Zeiss lens...and a few other goodies for a mostly compact...and what appears to be a quality recording device. I talked to some folks at Apple...since my intent was to ultimately edit on Final Cut Express (Apple product)...they tell me you really want a camera with a Firewire connection... (Sony has mini HDMI and USB)...to connect directly to the desktop and not lose any quality in editing. Sony says you must also ultimately burn onto Blue Ray to maintain 1080i. I do, also, have a regular PC desktop.

My Question... PC or not....what's the best HD Camcorder one can get up to approx ~ $1500...that said...what would be most compatible to use IMovie...or Final Cut Express...

Thoughts....redirections??? I want an HD Camcorder...and would like to be able to edit with Final Cut Ex...or give me some guidance in the PC route...

Thanks...

This is really a complicated question because of all the options and your individual preferences. Not sure how "up" you are on the current state of tech, but you essentially have two format options in the consumer HD space - HDV and AVCHD. HDV mostly uses Mini-DV tape and AVCHD generally uses flash media or HDD.

And of course Apple is going to push Firewire since they profit directly from its mass adoption. Too bad that will never happen since it's greatest market success was that of MiniDV and HDV, two quickly dying technologies in the consumer space. AVCHD was designed as a more effecient codec used in modern HD consumer cams designed to supplant HDV, and fix some issues with HDV, like reduced bit rate audio vs. 48k, 16-bit PCM or 5.1 audio in AVCHD, more flexible media choices, etc. There's been a lot of debate regarding the current implementation of reduced bit-rate AVCHD vs. 25 Mbit/s HDV. Perhaps the most relevant comparison of the two technologies would be Canon's HV20 vs. its HG10 because literally the only difference between the two models is the compression technology and recording media. The optics are absolutely identical. The general consensus on many sites seems to be that footage from the HG10 is very, very close at 15 Mb/s to matching that of the HV20 (25 Mb/s). So it basically boils down to your desired workflow process. If you don't mind realtime capture to your NLE and working with tape in the acquisition phase, then HDV is a great choice. If you'd like the flexibility of flash or HDD recording and quicker dumps to your NLE using USB, then you need to move to an AVCHD cam.

You also have to consider editing performance and your chosen cam format. HDV requires more horsepower than SD, but AVCHD requires much, much more CPU processing power to edit than HDV. Additionally, not all NLE's will natively edit AVCHD footage. The recommended workaround for both problems is to convert into a compatible "lossless" intermediate file format. This will alleviate the editing problems (both performance and compatibility), but the side effect is a 3x-8x increase in the filesize (dependent on codec and chosen options). Something else to consider when considering formats is that of archiving. With HDV, you'll always have the MiniDV tape if so desired. With AVCHD, you'll eventually have to dump the flash mem or HDD contents to make room for new footage. I would never rely on HDD for longterm archiving. My choice is DLT, which is incredibly reliable and much better than any other tape format remotely near its price point. But, that's an additional expense to consider.

As far as NLE's go, you mention some very popular choices on the Mac platform. For the PC, you're going to have more choices. A lot of people like Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum for the most bang for the buck. Other options exist from Avid (Pinnacle), Canopus, Adobe, etc.

Regarding the best camcorder for $1500, I don't think anything can touch Canon's HV20 and you can pick it up for less than half that price. But it's HDV. If you want more manual control, $1500 might buy a nice used prosumer HDV model like a Sony FX-1.

On the AVCHD side, like I said earlier, Canon's HG10 is the closest you're going to get to their HV20, though the new HF-10/HF-100 may be pretty good too - there's been some discussion that the increased bit rates in these models may not yield footage as good as the HG10 due to the fact that these new models are 1920x1080 vs. 1440x1080 (HG10). Some of the new Sony's appear to be very promising as well. Panasonic appears to be sticking with CCD's vs. CMOS sensors, so that's something to consider. With CMOS, you're going to possibly have rolling shutter side effects. CCD's also have their share of "issues", so more research there too.

I would agree very much what goldenear had said, and also add that tapes in HDV are just for recording not for playback.
Most people think that HDV since its using mini tape are like those VHS cams once recorded on tape you are stuck with the tape. HDV playback is done in BD format on a DVD disk. Once you unload the HD footage you don't deal with the tape anymore.

Wow! Great reply's Goldenear and GodobeHD. I am in a similar situation as the OP. My older mini-dv camcorder was lost or stolen. My replacement should be mini-dv, to play my 10 year archive of tapes, and I need firewire. The hv20 and new hv30 (not sure if it has firewire) where on my short list. I think my best choice is now the hv20 or maybe the sony hc7. Saves me money and I probably don't need 1080p.

ER Driver, how do you get hd video from mini-dv to a disk to play on my PS3?

Sorry to high-jack your post ER Driver

USB vs. Firewire is a non-issue. While Firewire 400 is a hair faster than USB2, USB2 is still very fast in transferring video, and far, far faster than tape-based systems that use Firewire, which are limited to the realtime tape playback speed. Digital camera and HDD/flash camcorders use USB instead of firewire because USB is cheaper and ubiquitous.

Another thought about the HDV vs. AVCHD issue is how do you intend to store and access the final video? If you are like me and keep your digital life on HDD - online, instantly accessible, automatically backed up - AVCHD obviously has the advantage of being much smaller for very similar quality.

Response to all,

Ok forgetting using firewire.... hows the performance of the Sony AVCHD (right ???...using 120MB drive) if I store it on a PC Hard drive then burn it to Blu-Ray...which Sony says you have to do... to maintain High Def. Not necessarily looking for a prosumer size cam...still want to keep the camera relatively small??? I could always edit Mac/ PC with USB connect right??? and maintain High Def?????

Thoughts????

Thanks Again

Another thought about the HDV vs. AVCHD issue is how do you intend to store and access the final video? If you are like me and keep your digital life on HDD - online, instantly accessible, automatically backed up - AVCHD obviously has the advantage of being much smaller for very similar quality.

The question that also needs to be asked is what are you going to view it on. If you're like me, you might prefer to watch HD footage on a large screen HDTV. I only use a computer monitor to take a quick look at footage (if I use the computer at all for this), but I would never use a computer monitor as my primary viewing device. If I shot something in HD, I would only want to view it on a large screen HDTV where you can really appreciate the quality...but that's me.

I think the PC vs. media player (e.g., DVD) distinction will increasingly disappear. Personal video and other media will be stored on PCs and then streamed to TV monitors via connected devices such as XBox, Playstation and smart STBs. Often PCs themselves will be directly connected, as well, such as with my quad processor media PC and the Samsung 63" 1080p plasma I have.

For personal use, much of the video you take will have far more meaning years from now than it does presently, and how you watch it now is not necessarily the best way to look at the issue. Regardless of what media is initially used to store the video, it will end up on a PC. Whether the journey stops there or it is then burned to Bluray, uploaded to YouTube, streamed to an XBox, or what/wherever really doesn't make much difference to the dynamics here

Although I'm increasingly a fan of AVCHD due mostly to the improving picture quality, there are unquestionably hoops one must jump through that you don't need to do with tape. If you look at this objectively, tape is easier in many respects. It's easy to archive, it's cheap, it's easier to edit with less computer horsepower requirements once it's on the computer and it's easier to view on an HDTV in some respects. Some make a big deal over the fact that it's much easier to upload AVCHD files to the computer than HDV. That's true, but what many of these same people overlook is that once uploaded, you are more than likely forced to convert these files for editing purposes since the overwhelmingly majority of computers simply can't handle and edit native AVCHD files. Therefore time-consuming file conversion is necessary.

Yes, AVCHD is fantastic in its easy & instant access to scenes, but once archived you need to find a way to bring it back to the HDTV. Most people do not have a means to stream nor do they have a computer hooked up to their TV. I really don't believe that the TV/computer convergence ever happened like some thought it might or Microsoft banked on.

Ken, but if you go with a Sony camcorder (SR11 for example) and use Sony Vegas Pro 8, it does NOT require conversion correct?

^^^Right, that's the NLE that I use and it natively edits AVCHD footage, even from non-Sony cams, although I do convert all of my footage to Cineform's intermediate in order to remove pulldown since I'm basically shooting everything in 24PF <- have to do that with any 24P in 60i cam, HDV or AVCHD.

Of course the editing performance gained from this conversion borders on being ridiculous.

So I'm thinking of sticking with AVCHD.... ultimately I want to watch it on a large plasma....so Blu-Ray burner needed... but back to the particular camera Sony's new SR-12....anyone have anything that can compete with it...in the same format???....same price range < $1500?

And I guess I can use USB connection with Vegas or Final Cut Ex

Thanks again Guys...

You can burn it to Blu-Ray, you can copy it as a file to a data-format DVD if your player decodes AVCHD (e.g., PS2), you can copy it to your PS3, you can connect the computer to the HDTV (HDMI, component, or RGB out), or copy the resultant edit back to the camera and connect it to the HDTV via HDMI (or component).

You've got lots and lots of choices.

If you have patience the HDD issue will resolve itself because they will continue to give you the best $/gig solution.

I've stopped archiving my RAW SLR pictures on DVD and started to transfer them back to an external harddrive. While the drive has less $/gig than blank DVD's the convenience of having everything availible instantly was worth way more than the burden of burning disks.

While some have touted at the reliability of a harddrive, in my experience, those drives which are unreliable are system drives which are on almost 24/7. Usually they also are used as virtual memory drives. When not in use I turn the power off the enclosure. As long as the drive isn't bumped or knocked I am confident it will be reliable.
In say 4 years when i guess I should refresh the drive, a new drive with quadruple the space will be availible for half the price. Then at that time instead of dumping 40 dvd's onto say bluray media, I just copy the whole drive over to a new one.

Physical media distribution is going to disappear and once the general public has accepted "downloading" to purchase movies, the streaming devices will really come out in droves.
And that will be the time when I really will be enjoying my archived footage of my family.

^^^Right, that's the NLE that I use and it natively edits AVCHD footage, even from non-Sony cams, although I do convert all of my footage to Cineform's intermediate in order to remove pulldown since I'm basically shooting everything in 24PF <- have to do that with any 24P in 60i cam, HDV or AVCHD.

Of course the editing performance gained from this conversion borders on being ridiculous.

Can you elaborate on this please? What is "Cineform's intermediate" and why does it give you an editing advantage? I'm loving the SR-11 but the recodes in Pinnacle Studio are taking some of the joy out of the experience. I'm about to throw more CPU at it but going from a 4 hour recode down to 2 hours is still painful. I guess I'm looking for the magic bullet of going from the super high quality AVCHD on the camera to a lossles format of the same quality that's easier to edit. Does such a thing exist?

What is "Cineform's intermediate" and why does it give you an editing advantage?

Because I can edit in realtime using a cheap, throw away E2140. To give you an idea, simply playing back raw footage pegs both cores at ~97%. After converting the same footage to Cineform's .avi, the same clip plays at ~18% (both formats viewed in Vegas Pro 8 using preview/automatic quality settings).

IMO, AVCHD is the ideal acquisition format in the consumer cam space; but as far as editing, I wouldn't even bother with it right now, especially when intermediates like Cineform exist, are relatively inexpensive (even free in some cases), and provide such excellent results.

If you want to learn more about Cineform's suite of tools, I'd suggest visiting their site. They can explain their products better than I, LOL.

While some have touted at the reliability of a harddrive, in my experience, those drives which are unreliable are system drives which are on almost 24/7.

Actually, you've got it a bit backwards. The best thing you can do for increasing the longevity of your drive array (assuming you have adequate ventilation) is to leave it run continuously. It's the constant starting and stopping of drives that decreases their life. This is why Seagate now rates all of their nearline (non-enterprise storage) drives in start/stop cycles, not MTBF.

Anyone looking for archiving solutions for AVCHD footage should check out DLT. 320GB tapes are $39/ea. So after you take the initial price hit for the drive, you're going to be well ahead of both HDD and MiniDV. Additionally, the robustness of DLT trumps anything even remotely near its pricepoint. The format has proven itself time and time again in IT operations worldwide over the past 15 years and is truly "archival" worthy.

Do all versions of Vegas include the Cineform Codec's or must you purchase the $500 version? How long is the re-encode time (assume fast dual core) from 1080P/30 to Cineform? Will Vegas play nice with AVCHD files from Canon etc? Im trying to decide the best workflow if I move to AVCHD camera. Considering HF100 or SR11.

Hi all! This has been one of the best discussions I have seen concerning the "camcorder" decision. I had an expensive repair on an HDV camcorder just to recover tapes I had already shot. So I am a BIG fan of REMOVEABLE flash memory cards that can be easily read WITHOUT the camcorder.

I recently got a Panasonic HDC-SD5 bundled with a portable DVD burner. While complete editing of AVCHD has its limitatations, simple cuts-only editing has many advantages. For instance, if I don't even OWN a computer, I can split and delete scenes in the camcorder. I can then burn a DVD directly from the camera. While not "edited" in the traditional sense, a "playlist" is created as part of the AVCHD standard. This DVD (even dual layer with the bundled burner) can then be played back through the camcorder's HDMI port, or in a Blu-ray player.

By using the included software, you have even more options. You could copy such an "edited" DVD back to an SD card and play it back with only the camera using the HDMI out. This would work well if you were visiting someone with an HDTV, but with no playback system. You have more editing options, including the ability to re-arrange scenes and create a simple menu structure when played on a Blu-ray player.

If you're a serious video maker, you will want better editing. But this seems to me to be an ideal arrangement for family videos. It's easy to cut out some bad scenes, shorten others, then burn a (high definition) DVD. There is no re-encoding, as the original scenes are not even transferred to an edited master. There is simply a "playlist" created.

A couple years back, my wife's cousin was showing me her DVD camcorder (standard definition), and it was soooo easy to put the DVD in my player. While we were watching, she asked me if a certain scene could be removed. It then really hit me that even simple editing of that DVD would be a major project.

I think this simple AVCHD "editing" process is ideal for family videos. It may be better than anything that even existed for standard def in the past. And I think manufacturers are doing a poor job of promoting what may be AVCHD's best feature.

Panasonic even has some HDTV models with an SD card slot that can play AVCHD directly. It's getting interesting!

Dave

^^^totally agree Dave. Doug, I doubt that VMS Plat includes Cineform, but you should ask Sony to be sure. This winter, there have been a couple opportunities to pick up Vegas Pro 8 for ~$180. B&H ran an unbelievable deal with v6 and the v8 upgrade. TigerDirect also ran a deal with v8 upgrade not long ago. You can check the camcorder specific sites like dvinfo.net and hv20.com for those threads. Usually people will post relevant information about these buying opportunities pretty quickly on these sites. That's how I picked up my copy.

Even though v8 pro includes the codec, I still needed to purchase a copy of NEO HDV because the Vegas included version will not properly remove pulldown for 24P editing. There is a discount code listed on HV20.com that will save you $50. Also, I have heard that conversion time is accelerated with the full versions of the Cineform's software vs. the included one in Vegas 8.

On a cheap, throw-away Intel E2140, I am getting almost realtime conversion rates on High, Film Scan (don't use) and Film Scan2 (don't use) settings. If you use good HDD's and with a hardware accelerated RAID 0 config, there isn't a CPU out there that will outrun your drives. So if you want more performance, just use a faster processor. What I'm saying is that if your disk subsystem is up to par, your conversion results, at this point in time and probably several years into the near future, are entirely processor dependent.

I can open native .mts or .m2ts Canon HG10 files in Vegas 8 Pro (build 217) without any problems.

Thank you for the feedback gents. If I dont care about 24P than it seems like Vegas Pro might be the one tool that would provide all my needs. I really dont want a workflow where I need to render in one tool and edit in another. If the Cineform codec in V8 Pro will render 30P/60I video than it seems like a winner to me. Its just expensive.

Keep looking for deals. I'm sure there'll be more. In the meantime, download a copy and see if you like it. Lots of choices out there with NLE's...

Thanks for all the advice. I have Video Studio 11.5 so I'll play with that a bit. I've also d/l a demo TMPGenc codec and tried some format conversion tests. The quality was great but yikes it slow even on my Q6600 box. Looks like Im down to either the HF100 or SR11. The SR11 looks like a better deal since its includes a HD and nicer display for just a few $$ more. The Canon seems a little overpriced with no memory. I saw the Sony at BB yesterday. Its kind of clunky looking with the HD "pouch" and felt a little funny in hands. No sign of the Canon at retail yet