Okay I decided to post here since the receiver and processor thread mainly has posts on receivers. I only got one response. I'm trying to find out how much of an improvement would it be to get my Casablanca I upgraded to a version III. This is what the dealer said I would get with the III. Oh, I am the original owner.

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Now for the bad part...the cost! The upgrade from a Casablanca I to a Casablanca III, assuming you are the original owner of the Casablanca, is $3,000. For this princely sum, you get the all-new 12-channel processing board, Dolby digital, DTS and Circle surround formats, and an additional 3 years of warranty. You will also be able, at the time of upgrade, to receive a 15% discount on any DAC cards, boards, etc that you may buy at the time of upgrade. No trivial expense, sure...but you're also not stuck trashing the Casablanca you already have, and buying a whole new unit.
____________________________________________________________ _____

I would love to hear from those out there that could describe what kind of improvement I would get with this upgrade. I'm currently using the standard DAC's with no DTS or Circle Surround formats. I only have Dolby Digital and a Laser Disk card that I would have removed since I'm no longer using LD. Basically I bought a pretty stripped down version but have been extremely happy with the performance. I have 6 digital inputs and 6 analog inputs and have never came close to running out. In fact, I'm only using 2 digital inputs and one analog input. The III would get rid of the crackling issue I have when dolby digital transitions but hardly seems worth the $3k cost if I don't get a big jump in performance as well.

I'm wondering how much the 12-channel processing board offers as far as performance goes. Is most of the $3K just in getting the latest version besides gaining DTS and the Circle Surround formats??? Also wondering if going from the Standard to the Superior DAC's really offers that much of an improvement for surround sound ONLY since I'm using a very good CD player going into the analog direct ONLY route of the CB (no D to A conversion).

It may be worth waiting to see how the whole HDMI thing works out.......still I'm thinking it may be worth upgrading my CB to a version III. I don't upgrade often since I've had my CB I since 1997 with no problems at all.

Here's the way I see it: upgrading from CBI to CBIII IS worthwhile if you're going to go from the Standard to the Extreme DAC for the front- it does make a great difference. But, if you can't pull that trigger, then you're probably better-off waiting until there's something more than vaporware from Theta regarding HDMI (and yes, they are actually working diligently on that). The CBIII with extremes or with a Gen VIII as the frnt DAC is the most neutral processor I've ever heard- but after that everyone else sounds very good, and very similar (anthem, halcro, etc.) Although, I will admit that I think that Lexicon sounds rather flat and lifeless compared to the others- they are very well built, and extremely reliable.

So as far as I'm concerned- either go CBIII with extremes for the front, or wait and go with whatever HDMI solution is available from Theta.

Dan

Okay I decided to post here since the receiver and processor thread mainly has posts on receivers. I only got one response. I'm trying to find out how much of an improvement would it be to get my Casablanca I upgraded to a version III. This is what the dealer said I would get with the III. Oh, I am the original owner.

____________________________________________________________ ____
Now for the bad part...the cost! The upgrade from a Casablanca I to a Casablanca III, assuming you are the original owner of the Casablanca, is $3,000. For this princely sum, you get the all-new 12-channel processing board, Dolby digital, DTS and Circle surround formats, and an additional 3 years of warranty. You will also be able, at the time of upgrade, to receive a 15% discount on any DAC cards, boards, etc that you may buy at the time of upgrade. No trivial expense, sure...but you're also not stuck trashing the Casablanca you already have, and buying a whole new unit.
____________________________________________________________ _____

I would love to hear from those out there that could describe what kind of improvement I would get with this upgrade. I'm currently using the standard DAC's with no DTS or Circle Surround formats. I only have Dolby Digital and a Laser Disk card that I would have removed since I'm no longer using LD. Basically I bought a pretty stripped down version but have been extremely happy with the performance. I have 6 digital inputs and 6 analog inputs and have never came close to running out. In fact, I'm only using 2 digital inputs and one analog input. The III would get rid of the crackling issue I have when dolby digital transitions but hardly seems worth the $3k cost if I don't get a big jump in performance as well.

I'm wondering how much the 12-channel processing board offers as far as performance goes. Is most of the $3K just in getting the latest version besides gaining DTS and the Circle Surround formats??? Also wondering if going from the Standard to the Superior DAC's really offers that much of an improvement for surround sound ONLY since I'm using a very good CD player going into the analog direct ONLY route of the CB (no D to A conversion).

It may be worth waiting to see how the whole HDMI thing works out.......still I'm thinking it may be worth upgrading my CB to a version III. I don't upgrade often since I've had my CB I since 1997 with no problems at all.

Tell us about your components and room. How much TV do you watch? What percentage are DVD? HD DVD or Blu Ray? CD? SACD? DVD-Audio. LPs?


How important is HDMI multi-channel audio capability to you, if at all?

All of this goes into your decision on what its worth to spend.

The CB3 even with the old Superior DACs is a much better unit than the CB1.
But other surround processors with new technology have also come out.
I think that the CB3 (or CB4) may be a King again once the HDMI audio multi-channel bit plays out. But how much do you want to spend now on upgrading to a CB3, when you as of yet have no word from Theta how much it will cost you to upgrade to the upcoming version with HDMI capability???

I would wait until the new breed of pre/pros come out. The CB is old, buggy and regardless of what ATI says may be discontinued entirely. Has it been more than 5 years since the last revision? I can't imagine dumping any money into this piece at this time particularly when it can only do lossy formats in a lossless world. You get better sound from a HDMI 1.3 receiver that decodes lossless tracks. Until there is a new unit available in stores or upgrades that have implemented, it is an albatross. Look for such, if it ever happens in 2009 / 10....

I am sure Steve fully agrees...:)

I would wait until the new breed of pre/pros come out. The CB is old, buggy and regardless of what ATI says may be discontinued entirely. Has it been more than 5 years since the last revision? I can't imagine dumping any money into this piece at this time particularly when it can only do lossy formats in a lossless world. You get better sound from a HDMI 1.3 receiver that decodes lossless tracks. Until there is a new unit available in stores or upgrades that have implemented, it is an albatross. Look for such, if it ever happens in 2009 / 10....

I am sure Steve fully agrees...:)

Hi Jeff! You don't need to speak for me. I told him what I thought above. HA!

Now that Theta Digital confirms they hope to have a CB3 HDMI 1.3 audio/video solution for the next CEDIA, will The Bland ever shut up re his dislike for a brand he has never owned?

I think it makes too much sense to wait for HDMI. Get the 15% off on the HDMI card, plus you might have to go to a CBIV for HDMI anyway and spend another $3K. I'm just going to sell the CB1 i traded in at whatever it fetches. Since it was replaced for $1800, anything will help defray that minor expense. Maybe in a year the CBIV w/HDMI will be the coolest machine ever, Jeff will own one, Steve will be in non-stop gloat mode, cats and dogs sleeping together........

Now that Theta Digital confirms they hope to have a CB3 HDMI 1.3 audio/video solution for the next CEDIA, ........Seems pretty definite to me. :rolleyes:

Theta is Steve's Barack Obama :)

Kal, as one who has watched Theta's definitely happenings come and go over the last 15 years or so I fully intend on wait and see. Internal SACD decoding was announced as a definite and that turned out to be the Sixshooter. I'm glad I didn't get the Compli in anticipation of that one. There have been other 'definites' but that's the most recent for me anyway. Maybe, hopefully, ATI will be different when it comes down to this.

Theta is Steve's Barack Obama :)

Now that is hopefully funny!!!

Your question has an easy answer it just depends on:

Do you want to decode and process the current set of lossless Codecs and hires LPCM?

If so the Integra DTC-9.8 is a great choice at a value price

or

Do you want the best possible (most neutral and dynamic) sound quality from your CDs and the legacy Codecs/formats?

If so, then the advice that Dan Francis gave you is spot on.

Good Luck

Tell us about your components and room. How much TV do you watch? What percentage are DVD? HD DVD or Blu Ray? CD? SACD? DVD-Audio. LPs?


How important is HDMI multi-channel audio capability to you, if at all?

All of this goes into your decision on what its worth to spend.

The CB3 even with the old Superior DACs is a much better unit than the CB1.
But other surround processors with new technology have also come out.
I think that the CB3 (or CB4) may be a King again once the HDMI audio multi-channel bit plays out. But how much do you want to spend now on upgrading to a CB3, when you as of yet have no word from Theta how much it will cost you to upgrade to the upcoming version with HDMI capability???

Steve (and others),

Okay here's the information you asked for if it will help any. I use to listen mostly to 2-channel music but that has changed greatly with family, etc. This is how I use my CB I.

95% : home theater
5% : 2-channel audio using a Naim CDX CD player sent into the analog (only) direct route of the CB I. I have no intentions of dumping this and any future processor would have to support an analog direct route so I could keep using it.
I own a Toshiba HD-XA2 : Purchased it due to the great upscaling ability regardless that HD DVD isn't going to last. I have around 10 HD's with 10 free ones coming due to also buying an A3 for another room. Not sure if I'll buy any HD DVD's even at a discount since the format is dead. May purchase one or two if the prices fall drastically.
No LP's
NO SACD or any other highend audio formats for 2-channel.
NO desire to listen to multi-channel audio
As far as room setup, everything is in a family room using XA2 into CBI into McCormack amps (2 and 3 channel) into Aerial Acoustic Speakers and Martin Logan Depth Subwoofer. My display is a Pioneer Elite 53" HD RPTV. Everything connected by JPS cables.

I don't jump into new technologies often as everyone can obviously see with me owning my CBI since 1997. Even though the standard DAC's, I have no complaint on dynamics. I guess better DAC's would provide better seperation and detail which would always be good to have. When I do spend significant money, I would like to make sure it is going to stay around for some time. I'm patient so I can wait and see how this all works out. I'm thinking about getting a Blu-Ray player this year. Time will tell if Blu-Ray is going to keep growing. I have doubts it will be much more than a small slice of the overall DVD pie with the Blu-Ray disks costing so much......hard for normal ma and pa America to support when upconverting SD DVD players do a very good job for a much cheaper price. Anyway I don't have a problem spending more on high def. disks for picture quality provided.

I guess I can see what folks say about TheBland being so negative about Theta even though he has never owned any Theta products. It seems that his advice for me is to dump it even though anything else out there will also cost a lot of money to perform significantly above the CB. I don't agree that Theta products are buggy.....not sure why he says that. I've had mine since 1997 with no problems at all. One other comment that TheBland makes that maybe others with experience can comment on is when he says a highend receiver with lossless will easily outperform a highend process that only uses lossy. I seriously doubt this. It seems that lossless will provide about a 20% improvment on the same setup from everything I've read. I've listened to a receiver with lossless on average (if best) speakers and I'll guarantee that it doesn't sound better than my CBI going through Aerial Acoustic speakers even if lossy is being implemented. This is one reason I'm reluctant to dump my CBI for something else that may have various issues. I get a headache trying to read the countless threads on the other highend processors that seem to all have various issues or need some future FW update. I really don't want to buy a highend processor that doesn't work flawlessly. I'm also reluctant to dump the CBI especially not knowing how everything is going to work out with Theta, HDMI, lossless, Blu-Ray, etc. I would like to support the "lossless" formats but only if there are going to be plenty of disks available along with "lossless" actually staying around for some time and not dying after a couple years.

It seems that DanFrancis does give the best advice. I would definitely consider another processor if one is a no brainer that provides a level much above the CBI with Standard DAC's, has HDMI figured out and also is very dependable. It seems that DanFrancis has experience with most of the other processors only sounding similar and behind the CBIII with extreme DAC's. So how much improvement does the Extreme DAC's offer for home theater (not for CD use)??? Do you only recommend the Extreme DAC's or will the Superior ones also provide a significant jump for home theater performance. My system has no problem whatsoever with dynamics.

I guess I was hoping the CBIII without upgrading to better DAC's (at least initally) would have a significant sound improvement over my CBI but it sounds like it wouldn't. I was thinking the preamp section may have changed to provide a huge improvement to the overall sound.

Steve says even the CBIII with old superior DAC's is much better than a CBI. I wish this could be quantified a little even though hard to describe sound improvements. Would it be like going from ProLogic to Dolby Digital difference or smaller differences noticed such as detail and clarity which is something I would want. This is of course talking about "home theater" only and not 2-channel or multi-channel audio. I state this since to me it is a lot harder to tell differences in home theater than 2-channel music. Maybe this is why the Standard DAC's have sounded pretty darn good over the years. Yes, I don't have anything else to make me say "what have I been listening to" but it doesn't make me say "why doesn't the movie experience sound wonderful with dynamics, details and surround information" either.

Here's the way I see it: upgrading from CBI to CBIII IS worthwhile if you're going to go from the Standard to the Extreme DAC for the front- it does make a great difference. But, if you can't pull that trigger, then you're probably better-off waiting until there's something more than vaporware from Theta regarding HDMI (and yes, they are actually working diligently on that). The CBIII with extremes or with a Gen VIII as the frnt DAC is the most neutral processor I've ever heard- but after that everyone else sounds very good, and very similar (anthem, halcro, etc.) Although, I will admit that I think that Lexicon sounds rather flat and lifeless compared to the others- they are very well built, and extremely reliable.

So as far as I'm concerned- either go CBIII with extremes for the front, or wait and go with whatever HDMI solution is available from Theta.

Dan


Hello DanFrancis,

Thanks for the solid advice. Do you really feel that the Extreme DAC's in the front is the only reason to upgrade from the Standard DAC's? I was hoping since my 1997 CBI that the CBIII would provide a significant jump in performance even if it was in the preamp section but it sounds like it won't. Steve says the CBIII with the old Superior DAC's would sound much better than the CBI. This was the only regret I have when I purchased the CBI is that I didn't go with the Superior DAC's in the front channels. Anyway I guess it comes down to money. $3k, at least for me, is a chunk of cash to go to the CBIII let alone if it doesn't provide a significant jump without better DAC's. I'm sure I'll be looking at $5k or more if I go with the Extreme DAC's which is about the price I paid for the CBI. I should state that I'm looking at "home theater" performance only with the DAC's and not 2-channel audio.

Maybe I should wait to see what Theta does. I've been patient but their slowness in releasing everything has led to their own demise. Is there a no brainer processor out there for under $5k that can sound significantly better than what I have, handle the latest HDMI, have great customer service for problems and future upgrades, be highly dependable and not have any bugs??????????????

Is there a no brainer processor out there for under $5k that can sound significantly better than what I have, handle the latest HDMI, have great customer service for problems and future upgrades and still have a processor that doesn't any bugs along with being highly dependable??????????????

NAD T175. Buy one for under $2K, use it while you wait for a CBIV upgrade with HDMI (and the inevitably time out to get updated), sell it for $1000. If your system could use *any* speaker/room correction, it will sound better, it has the latest HDMI, great customer service, modular chassis and at least has had virtually all of the early bugs squashed via software upgrades which they did extremely fast. It's how i ended up with a CB1.

As I've said, now is a horrible time for truly high-end surround processors. All of them are behind the curve and few, if any, could be considered to be a smart long term purchase, but that should change within a year or so.

Kal, as one who has watched Theta's definitely happenings come and go over the last 15 years or so I fully intend on wait and see. Internal SACD decoding was announced as a definite and that turned out to be the Sixshooter. I'm glad I didn't get the Compli in anticipation of that one. There have been other 'definites' but that's the most recent for me anyway. Maybe, hopefully, ATI will be different when it comes down to this.I know but I didn't find the statement, as quoted, particularly reassuring.

Robert, just so you know, the Six Shooter as an analog preamp is much better than the analog bypass in the CB itself. And the Xtreme DACs are way better than even the Superior DACs for redbook CD.

That said, given uncertainties with Theta at present; and given that you have waited 11 years, why not wait another year and see what the future with Theta holds??? They say patience is a virtue.

Keep in mind that ATI has 3 surround preamplifiers in their line (though they do look a bit similar to the NHT/Vinci platform), one with DVI switching. Unless they were outsourcing technology, and even if they weren't, I suspect ATI/Theta is more capable of delivering on promises than Theta by itself. It's a possibly powerful merger that could make a bunch of high-end companies wish they'd gone out of business instead. All you can do is wait and see, which is why getting a temporary unit such as the T175 could be a good interim solution. if you upgrade to a CB3, only to have to do it again to a CBIV for HDMI, the T175 would save you a lot of money and solve the craving.

Keep in mind that ATI has 3 surround preamplifiers in their line (though they do look a bit similar to the NHT/Vinci platform), one with DVI switching. Unless they were outsourcing technology, and even if they weren't, I suspect ATI/Theta is more capable of delivering on promises than Theta by itself. It's a possibly powerful merger that could make a bunch of high-end companies wish they'd gone out of business instead. All you can do is wait and see, which is why getting a temporary unit such as the T175 could be a good interim solution. if you upgrade to a CB3, only to have to do it again to a CBIV for HDMI, the T175 would save you a lot of money and solve the craving.

Good advise. Which is why I have an Integra 9.8 preamp/processor coming.
I will use it only for HD DVD and Blue Ray HDMI 1.3, then out its multi-channel analog out to my Theta Six Shooter. Assuming Theta at some point has a reasonable cost upgrade to HDMI, then I'll sell the Integra then.

Good advise. Which is why I have an Integra 9.8 preamp/processor coming.
I will use it only for HD DVD and Blue Ray HDMI 1.3, then out its multi-channel analog out to my Theta Six Shooter. Assuming Theta at some point has a reasonable cost upgrade to HDMI, then I'll sell the Integra then.

Sure you will Steve :p

OK fist things first: the current ATI processors were originally DiChiro designs (currently with Monster)- but there were reliability issues and sound quality issues that prevented them from being as good as they could be. Theta was brought in (under the Sinclair regime) to go through the designs and make whatever improvements needed to be made given the constraints of the existing chasis/electronics package. This was completed last year, and now the ATI processors sound quite good (the 6700 and the 8700 are currently shipping, the 7700 is still under improvement/development).

What I said regarding the Theta CBI does hold true for theater as well as movies, but admittedly less so for movies. Here's the way I see it: anyone can do movies well- for the most part the limitation of the soundtrack is put in place during the audio mastering and transfer. However, being able to do 2-channel music well is quite difficult.

Here's how I rate the current processors that I've used/listened to:

1.)CBIII with Gen VIII as DAC for at least L,R

2.)CBIII with Extreme DACs across the board

3.)tied-Halcro SSP100/200- however many of the Vinci labs chasis sound very similar (this, the Parasound Halo, etc.) I feel that Halcro is at least one of the most proactive manufacturers out there when it comes to solving bugs and performance issues, of which their processor has had many during its gestation.

3.)tied- ADA Cinema Rhapsody Mach III, Cinema Reference Mach III (same processor, different chasis, and connection capabilities) -this less that mainstream company has excellent customer service, and a fairly neutral sound that tends toward the warm side (in DIRECT mode) good product at a good value.

4.)also a tie- Lexicon, Rotel, Sunfire, Anthem (excepting the Statement- which I've heard is quite good, but haven't ever played-with), etc. All are very reliable pieces, and will get the job done for movies, but quite honestly don't hold a candle to the first three when it comes to music reproduction.

Where do I get any qualifications to make any of these statements? I've recently been doing alot of work with CAT on projects that are big, big $$$ (not mine- other dealers), and when you're dealing at that level- you really do hear the subtle differences between preamps. Over the years I've listened to these other products (same chasis/DSP chips as they are now), and I've found that unless you're at the top level- everyone else sounds pretty much the same--all good.

I guess the short answer is really a question: how much do you care? If you're the type that upgrades your driver (golf) everytime RAM, Calaway, Taylor Made, Nike develops a new alloy, or design- then you're probably the type to notice the differences.

Me, I care more about music than movies. I think that if you can do music well, you'll certainly do movies equally well.

My .02

Dan

dan, The CAT speaker in ferrari red are no longer at the forum shops exotic car dealership. What happened to them and the salesgirl :p

Mark,

They went back to their owner (I think they currently reside in a warehouse at Creative Home Theater in Las Vegas). The salesgirl (Charla), I don't know. I haven't visited exotic car in over a year (last time was the week of CES 07- to replace the dented midranges and mid-bass woofers in those speakers).

However, I have a feeling you may see them again- perhaps in a different color, and I have no idea where yet---but I'm sure they'll show up, they're way too huge to hide forever....well except that the owner's house IS actually big enough to make them seem "normal" sized. Yeah, think about that kind of scale.

Dan

They would be perfect in Brusonzky's HT:)

Robert, just so you know, the Six Shooter as an analog preamp is much better than the analog bypass in the CB itself. And the Xtreme DACs are way better than even the Superior DACs for redbook CD.

That said, given uncertainties with Theta at present; and given that you have waited 11 years, why not wait another year and see what the future with Theta holds??? They say patience is a virtue.


Okay.........but I guess I'm not totally understanding how the 6 shooter gets connected. It has 6 analog inputs for the lossless signal from HD DVD players like the XA2...........correct? But how do I run my two analog L and R outputs from my Naim CD player into it? I guess my CBI would handle the lossy formats while the 6 shooter handles the lossless formats.........guess I'm not understanding how the 6 analog outputs from my XA2 plus the L & R analog outputs from my Naim CDX get routed with everything still going into my same amps.

Besides this, it looks like I'll be waiting to see what Theta does. I've had plenty of paitence to this point along with the fact that I'm not unhappy with my CBI to spend a couple grand for something to just hold me over for a spell.

They might not fit- I think he'd need to raise the roof to fit them in (they're something like 13 feet to the top of the top woofer cabinet.

Besides, Steve couldn't handle anything that might show him the limitations of his precious Aerials :D:D:D:D .....gotcha Steve! HA!

Dan

OK fist things first: the current ATI processors were originally DiChiro designs (currently with Monster)- but there were reliability issues and sound quality issues that prevented them from being as good as they could be. Theta was brought in (under the Sinclair regime) to go through the designs and make whatever improvements needed to be made given the constraints of the existing chasis/electronics package. This was completed last year, and now the ATI processors sound quite good (the 6700 and the 8700 are currently shipping, the 7700 is still under improvement/development).

What I said regarding the Theta CBI does hold true for theater as well as movies, but admittedly less so for movies. Here's the way I see it: anyone can do movies well- for the most part the limitation of the soundtrack is put in place during the audio mastering and transfer. However, being able to do 2-channel music well is quite difficult.

Here's how I rate the current processors that I've used/listened to:

1.)CBIII with Gen VIII as DAC for at least L,R

2.)CBIII with Extreme DACs across the board

3.)tied-Halcro SSP100/200- however many of the Vinci labs chasis sound very similar (this, the Parasound Halo, etc.) I feel that Halcro is at least one of the most proactive manufacturers out there when it comes to solving bugs and performance issues, of which their processor has had many during its gestation.

3.)tied- ADA Cinema Rhapsody Mach III, Cinema Reference Mach III (same processor, different chasis, and connection capabilities) -this less that mainstream company has excellent customer service, and a fairly neutral sound that tends toward the warm side (in DIRECT mode) good product at a good value.

4.)also a tie- Lexicon, Rotel, Sunfire, Anthem (excepting the Statement- which I've heard is quite good, but haven't ever played-with), etc. All are very reliable pieces, and will get the job done for movies, but quite honestly don't hold a candle to the first three when it comes to music reproduction.

Where do I get any qualifications to make any of these statements? I've recently been doing alot of work with CAT on projects that are big, big $$$ (not mine- other dealers), and when you're dealing at that level- you really do hear the subtle differences between preamps. Over the years I've listened to these other products (same chasis/DSP chips as they are now), and I've found that unless you're at the top level- everyone else sounds pretty much the same--all good.

I guess the short answer is really a question: how much do you care? If you're the type that upgrades your driver (golf) everytime RAM, Calaway, Taylor Made, Nike develops a new alloy, or design- then you're probably the type to notice the differences.

Me, I care more about music than movies. I think that if you can do music well, you'll certainly do movies equally well.

My .02

Dan




DanFrancis,

Thanks a bunch for the very detailed response. So how much does the Halcro cost if I don't spring for $5k plus to get my CBI upgraded to a CBIII with Extreme DAC's in the front channels? I'm thinking it would be close to the same amount? Would the CBIII with Superior DAC's be on the same level as the Halcro?

You make a good point in it all depends on how much money a person wants to spend especially for small improvements at times.....5% can be a lot in highend audio when listening to the details. I use to be in this camp but finally decided that the 2-channel audio Holy Grail would never be in grasp, no matter how much is spent. I'm not saying that an extremely high level can't be achieved but more in that the level is never good enough type of thing. When I came to this conclusion is what has led me to living with my CBI with standard DAC's for home theater even though my Naim CDX is no slouch........I've always wondered how close they could come to Extreme DAC's when playing Redbook CD's.

Anyway I guess I'm wondering how much audio improvement can be achieved when watching "movies" and not music. I thought it was funny that no one replied to TheBland's comment on a receiver's lossless capability being easily better than a highend processor's lossless ability. Maybe it's because the statement is so far out there to begin with. From what I've read, it seems that lossless offers maybe a 20% improvement in overall sound quality over lossy. Anyone want to provide feedback on this??? It seems that folks like you and Steve are in a good position with stating how much lossless really improves over lossy when it comes to "movies". I'm thinking it's not a night and day difference but haven't listen to enough systems to know.

For movies, what I've noticed with the lossless formats is that the grating top-end that I'm used to hearing in most systems gets smoothed-out, and that the soundtrack has more cohesion: meaning that it sounds more solid, more real- more like being there as opposed to listening to a good system (I hope that I'm explaining that well enough that you know what I mean).

This is exactly why I made the statements regarding the CBIII with extreme DACs; that step takes you closer to the lossless effect with the lossy standard Dolby Digital and DTS formats. Do they sound the same? No, but I'll take anything closer to fatigue-free movie viewing (read: distortion-free) that I can get.

I've said this before recently, I never used to think that the Theta was all it was cracked-up to be, the systems that I'd been involved in up to this past CES always had lower-end DACs (Superiors and Standards), and at that level- you could've had anything in there to sound that good. In fact I have one system that I've done that used the ADA suite 7.1, and it sounds vastly better than a system with a CBIII w/Superiors and Standards inside (music AND movies). And several years before that I was involved with a system that had B&W 801s and a CBI- and it really wasn't as impressive as I thought it might be.

Now fast-forward to CES 08; I get the opportunity to set-up a system in a demo-suite that had 2 Extreme DACs and a PremiumII Dac- it sounded great. Then the week following CES, I'm in Long Island working on a system that has both the CBIII and a Gen VIII for the front DACs, then Extremes for the rest- and that system sounded as close to real (for music) as I've ever heard.

Here's my reference for real: Burmester II, track 4 (Konzertante Barockmusik); in this track there's a harp solo in sveral movements, and as the harpist plays the solos you actually hear the sounds move from left to right on the right-of-center position in the soundstage (the lower notes move closer to center, the higher notes closer to the right channel- but never actually from the right channel).

Next is track 11: Stevie Ray Vaughan; Tin Pan Alley- in this track SRV actually plays all of the instruments ( it was recorded one night when he was alone in the studio, and he multi-tracked himself playing each of the instruments ). At the beginning of the song, just after the intro- you hear a buzzing, that's not your system making noise- it happens to be the Fender tube-amp that SRV used at the time. Hearing this detail mixed with the ambience of the studio, it really gives you the sense that you're there in the studio with him.


I realize that I keep getting long-winded lately, but I think it's worthwhile for me to relay my experiences and (somewhat informed) opinions- that maybe help you make your decision.

Dan

They might not fit- I think he'd need to raise the roof to fit them in (they're something like 13 feet to the top of the top woofer cabinet.

Besides, Steve couldn't handle anything that might show him the limitations of his precious Aerials :D:D:D:D .....gotcha Steve! HA!

Dan


Yea 13' high we'd need to raise the roof - by a foot!!!!

Dan, what do the CATs retail for? Surely way beyond my budget. But Burnstein, he could afford them.:o

THe Six Shooter has multi-channel input one which has six single ended or six balanced inputs; and also has multi-channel input two which has six single ended inputs. So you can connect stereo inputs to one set of the multi-channel inputs which means you won't use the center/left right surround/sub inputs.

Despite how outstanding my Theta Compli DVD sounds via CB3 Xtreme DACs; my now being replaced Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player, multi-channel analog output, playing Dolby Digital Plus sounds somewhat better even, than DVD via Xtreme DACs noted above for Dolby Digital or DTS. And Dolby True HD via Toshiba HD DVD player doing the converting sounds even better.

So the potential where the processor does the DA conversion, etc. and not the player is quite intriguing. This is why I will shortly use an Integra 9.8 preamp/processor for this purpose, in conjunction with my Theta Six Shooter.

Steve,

That pair was $560,000 as they stood at the exotic car dealership. Most of that cost lies in the enclosure construction. Here's the "funny part": that same speaker constructed from slightly different materials to fit into a hidden installation (there are several out there) costs $77,000 (that's less than OB's Alexandria IIs- and tuned to be even more accurate in the room).

Everyone thinks of CAT speakers as the crazy red or black towers that cost north of a quarter-million, but the truth is that most of the stuff that gets sold ends-up being hidden behind fabric anyway, so the cost is vastly cheaper than most people think.

Here's another example: the ENTIRE CAT MBX theater package 1 (entry into CAT MBX products/tuning/perforance) costs $195,000- including everything: processor, amps, dsp, on-site tuning, off-site engineering, cables, the works.

Now, when you figure that most of the people playing in this forum are listening to a pair of speakers north of 20K, and there's a couple fortunate Californians listening to speakers north of 40 or even 100k -without anything else.....$195k including electronics isn't such a crazy number. Remember that's a 7 channel theater!

My personal speakers go for about 35k in the configuration I have, but are only 15k when configured as in-wall speakers, and fit in 2x6s.

Dan

Compare those speakers to top end PSBs or Triad inwalls or even Meridians and it does seem a bit excessive. Remember, those are inwall speakers. You start off crippled, so why spend 4 times what a true exotic system does?

John, I'm not getting into this with you again- but you really need to compare all of the parts involved when you make that statement: tweeters, midranges, cabinet construction, crossover components, and that x-factor: the CATs can be tuned to to specific installation on-site by the guys that design them; no other company does that.

This isn't apples-to apples comparison: CAT builds essentially a REAL speaker into a wall or a cabinet- not a compromised plate that goes into sheetrock- then comes back and tunes it on-site so that it performs like it does before it left the manufacturing facility.

Dan

Hello DanFrancis,

Thanks for the solid advice. Do you really feel that the Extreme DAC's in the front is the only reason to upgrade from the Standard DAC's? I was hoping since my 1997 CBI that the CBIII would provide a significant jump in performance even if it was in the preamp section but it sounds like it won't. Steve says the CBIII with the old Superior DAC's would sound much better than the CBI.

I went from a CBII with the original Superior dacs. The Superior II dacs were installed when I upgraded from to CBIII. I hated the CBII with original Superior dacs and felt the CBIII with Superior II dacs was a big improvent. There is another dac, the Premium dac. It is a new dac. I have not seen any reports on how it sounds.

John, I'm not getting into this with you again- but you really need to compare all of the parts involved when you make that statement: tweeters, midranges, cabinet construction, crossover components, and that x-factor: the CATs can be tuned to to specific installation on-site by the guys that design them; no other company does that.

Reading too many brochures I see.

This isn't apples-to apples comparison: CAT builds essentially a REAL speaker into a wall or a cabinet- not a compromised plate that goes into sheetrock- then comes back and tunes it on-site so that it performs like it does before it left the manufacturing facility.

You haven't seen a Triad or PSB inwall I guess. Between that and a good Audyssey setup, I don't think CAT can really claim any big advantage. Especially compared to a free standing system. For $200K, you build the room a big bigger and set up the speakers properly. We don't do inwalls except as a last resort, even high-end ones.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying there isn't some potential benefit to how CAT does it, but they are really simply doing what any high-end shop should do for their customers and charging several appendages for it. There's not enough cost in parts to warrant some of the price tags here, they make Triad seem like an incredible bargain.

http://www.avguide.com/news/2006/09/17/cedia-06-meridian-a350i-the-best-in-wall-speaker-ever/

http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/In-Wall-In-Ceiling-Speakers/CW800E-In-Wall-Speaker
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/In-Wall-In-Ceiling-Speakers/CWS10-In-Wall-Subwoofer

http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/iwg6lcr.html

And, then of course, there's DEQX and Audyssey. So, while CAT thinks they're doing something unique, I am not so convinced. Good, I'm sure, but worth 2-10 times what other SOTA systems cost? I don't think so. To me, it's just the same as what Goldmund is doing - charging as much money as possible to market systems for the uber rich who then can brag about how much it cost them.

I went from a CBII with the original Superior dacs. The Superior II dacs were installed when I upgraded from to CBIII. I hated the CBII with original Superior dacs and felt the CBIII with Superior II dacs was a big improvent. There is another dac, the Premium dac. It is a new dac. I have not seen any reports on how it sounds.


Thanks Bulldogger,

That's good info to know. I could get the 6 shooter that Steve suggested for around $2,500 (at least I thought this was the price) but this would only benefit lossless which who knows right now how long it will last. It seems that getting to the CBIII with Superior II DAC's could be the way to go especially since I would benefit for all movies watched. Do you mind me asking how much you paid for this conversion and when was it done??? Did you get 15% off on the DAC's when going to the CBIII???

Decision, decisons........is there anyway you could quantify how much of an improvement you noticed for "movies" (not 2 channel) with the upgrade? Did it provide a closer step as DanFrancis suggested as far as smoothing everything out on the top end along with more clarity and detail.......I guess all part of "being there" type of experience?

Thanks again for the FYI on your CBII and Superior II DAC upgrade. I know Steve and DanFrancis are at a much higher level than my system even though I can hear any changes I make to my system whether cables, etc.

After reading one of your posts, i do want to say that I agree with Jeff that a product that can handle lossless sound over HDMI, especially one with room correction as well, vs taking either a lossy digital or lossless over analog, will sound better. The parts quality has improved quite a bit at lower and lower prices, so what was SOTA 10 years ago would now be considered quite average. I will probably hook up the CB1, but i would be surprised if its analog section is as good as what's in the $2k NAD and the digital section is way behind. Spending money on a $2500 6-shooter to take in multi-channel input seems silly compared to importing a pure, lossless digital signal. I have a Toshiba HD-DVD and an NAD DVD-A running 7.1 PCM audio in along with room correction and it's a healthy upgrade over analog and/or no room correction. For 95% movies, the Casablanca has no real advantage to it without upgrades that don't even exist yet. Keep in mind, i'm not suggesting ditching it, i'm suggesting parking it, putting a cover over it, then sending it in for a full HDMI makeover if and when that shows up. If it happens, great. If it doesn't, well, you move on. I think you'd be amazed by how good some things have gotten.

No John, not reading too many brochures- actually pricing the individual components.

I have seen Triad and PSB in-walls, in fact I used to sell both at different dealers that I've worked for in the past.

output capabilities, power handling, compression, distortion (or lack thereof).

You need to realize that I'm not saying that Triad or PSB, et al build a poor product! They build great products, but I can tell you firsthand that the drivers, cabinets, and crossovers built into CAT product cost several times what these other manufacturers are currently using:

Wire-wound resistors (1%), 250V capacitors, hand-wound true air-core coils, 4mil ciruitboards, HDF construction instead of MDF, solid-surface baffle plates instead of wood or metal, or even plastic.

Once again, until you have the experience- I can't convince you, but you really shouldn't make the statements you do regarding how these different products compare until YOU have actually compared them.

And BTW; CAT doesn't do what any high-end shop "should" do for their customers, because quite honestly, other than Baumeister in Chicago- I don't know of any dealers that actualy have degreed electrical engineers on staff. And even the dealers that might, aren't changing the loudspeakers' crossovers to improve frequency response after installation. -and sorry, but Audessey doesn't have the processing power necessary to operate at this level- not in the high frequencies, not without some degradation of the signal. There are only a few commercial/pro DSPs on the market that have the power to make high frequency changes without losing speed, and those cost more than the average systems when you use them in the proper quantities to correct per-speaker (average of 4k each retail, x7 speakers = 28k just for DSPs, and you need someone who knows what they're doing to program them) . Do you use an LMS on your installs? How do you measure the frequency response of your systems? Do you rely on the $2 microphone that's included with the receiver? How accurate do you really think that thing is?

TrueRTA is a great program for checking LF response, but you need a good microphone and a good mic preamp to do it- once again, only for LF.

I doubt highly that you're sweeping each speaker in the systems that you install, and if you do: what are you using?

So you tell me: what would you charge to have a degreed electrical engineer measure the frequncy response of every speaker in a system, then modify the crossovers to flatten that response as much as possible, THEN program whatever DSPs might be in the system to flatten the Bass response to +/-2 db from the front of the room to the back, and from side to side?

Or let's put it another way: a typical plumber or electrician costs how much per hour? $60,$80, $100? How much more do you think a degreed engineer with $10k in measurement equipment should cost per-hour? How about travel? since it isn't like you can look them up in the yellow pages.

So sorry, AV dealers DON'T do what CAT does- they just flat-out can't afford to, but they can afford to have CAT do it when they sell the system (included in the price of all MBX level projects, extra charge at the CAT and CAT ELITE levels). Most wouldn't know where to start, and the 2%-ers out there would lose too much due to opportunity-cost to make it worthwhile.

Dan

For movies, what I've noticed with the lossless formats is that the grating top-end that I'm used to hearing in most systems gets smoothed-out, and that the soundtrack has more cohesion: meaning that it sounds more solid, more real- more like being there as opposed to listening to a good system (I hope that I'm explaining that well enough that you know what I mean).

This is exactly why I made the statements regarding the CBIII with extreme DACs; that step takes you closer to the lossless effect with the lossy standard Dolby Digital and DTS formats. Do they sound the same? No, but I'll take anything closer to fatigue-free movie viewing (read: distortion-free) that I can get.

I've said this before recently, I never used to think that the Theta was all it was cracked-up to be, the systems that I'd been involved in up to this past CES always had lower-end DACs (Superiors and Standards), and at that level- you could've had anything in there to sound that good. In fact I have one system that I've done that used the ADA suite 7.1, and it sounds vastly better than a system with a CBIII w/Superiors and Standards inside (music AND movies). And several years before that I was involved with a system that had B&W 801s and a CBI- and it really wasn't as impressive as I thought it might be.

Now fast-forward to CES 08; I get the opportunity to set-up a system in a demo-suite that had 2 Extreme DACs and a PremiumII Dac- it sounded great. Then the week following CES, I'm in Long Island working on a system that has both the CBIII and a Gen VIII for the front DACs, then Extremes for the rest- and that system sounded as close to real (for music) as I've ever heard.

Here's my reference for real: Burmester II, track 4 (Konzertante Barockmusik); in this track there's a harp solo in sveral movements, and as the harpist plays the solos you actually hear the sounds move from left to right on the right-of-center position in the soundstage (the lower notes move closer to center, the higher notes closer to the right channel- but never actually from the right channel).

Next is track 11: Stevie Ray Vaughan; Tin Pan Alley- in this track SRV actually plays all of the instruments ( it was recorded one night when he was alone in the studio, and he multi-tracked himself playing each of the instruments ). At the beginning of the song, just after the intro- you hear a buzzing, that's not your system making noise- it happens to be the Fender tube-amp that SRV used at the time. Hearing this detail mixed with the ambience of the studio, it really gives you the sense that you're there in the studio with him.


I realize that I keep getting long-winded lately, but I think it's worthwhile for me to relay my experiences and (somewhat informed) opinions- that maybe help you make your decision.

Dan



Awesome feedback!!! And definitely don't feel like you're being long winded since your detailed reply is the type of input I need. I know exactly what you mean when you talk about the top end being harsh on the lossy formats. Wow, this is something I heard in the beginning of Dolby Digital when I was putting my system together. It seemed that no one knew what I was describing except for a couple folks. A few folks never even heard the distortion until I described exactly what I was hearing (specific points in the sound track especially noticeable on some vocals). This is why I went to such lengths with getting the components I have for my home theater room such as the XA2, CB, McCormack amps, Aerial Acoustic speakers and JPS cabling. All (at least I feel) are great values for the dollar (especially the Aerial speakers when I bought them since Aerial Acoustic was just starting out) with them being musical yet smooth (absolutely no brightness or fatigue added). This was absolutely mandatory when building my system and still is when adding any component. I even tried using an HD-A3 with horrible results. Folks actually on this forum swore I had something connected wrong or a cable issue except for a couple folks. I couldn't live with it so I returned it for the XA2 which performs at a surprisingly high level.

Anyway this is one complaint that I've always had. It seems that there are just a hand full of lossy DVD's where there is absolutely no sign of any distortion on the top end. As always it seems to come down to how good the DVD or CD is to determine how good the sound experience will be. For the most part, a highend system will reveal warts and all.

One thing I've never mentioned and wonder if others have noticed it or not is the fact that my HD DVD's with the lossy and lossless formats on the same disk allow the lossy version to sound better than the best SD DVD's lossy versions of Dolby Digital. I hope folks know what I mean. It is only on HD DVD disk having the lossless version on them. I hear an improvement in overall "movie" sound experience when listening to the lossy version of these disks. This isn't my imagination. I can play HD DVD's that only have lossless Dolby Digital (no lossy version included). Even though it sounds quite good, all the lossy HD DVD's sound the best when I listen to the lossless version on those disks. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because they use better equipment when recoding the lossless formats that it crosses over to better sound on the lossy version??? Anyway this isn't a blind fold type of thing to notce nor is it my imagination.

Anyway I definitely know everything you're describing and appreciate all the details. Steve's feedback saying that I can get the 6 shooter which has all the inputs needed for lossless and my Naim CD player is great feedback. I guess now I need to figure out whether to get this or save and do the CBIII and Superior II DAC upgrade. I'll consider the Extreme DAC's but have to consider the budget. I also have to realize that it may not be the best bang for my dollar to get the Extreme DAC's if the other factors in the chain aren't up to revealing everything the DAC's can reveal. I'm sure the rooms you set up at highend AV shows are using the best equipment with rooms tweaked in every way. I wonder if Extreme DAC's would be the way to go with me not having a dedicated home theater room or not using higher end L and R speaks. I guess the Extreme DAC's would be there if I ever do upgrade or a new house with a dedicated home theater room....hehehe. I'm using the Aerial 7's and not the 10T's. Anyway I was very surprised with Steve's comment about the XA2 doing a better job with internally decoding the lossless sound as compared to the Extreme DAC's in the CBIII doing the DA conversion. This is a pretty big statement. I realize you say that as good as the Extreme DAC's are that they aren't better than lossless. Is lossless really going to stay around for a long time? I'm not really sure how many future Blu-Ray disks plan to always include the lossless formats or if they will be around long term or not. At least the CBIII and better DAC's would benefit the slew of SD DVD's that I own.

Despite how outstanding my Theta Compli DVD sounds via CB3 Xtreme DACs; my now being replaced Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player, multi-channel analog output, playing Dolby Digital Plus sounds somewhat better even, than DVD via Xtreme DACs noted above for Dolby Digital or DTS. And Dolby True HD via Toshiba HD DVD player doing the converting sounds even better.


So the potential where the processor does the DA conversion, etc. and not the player is quite intriguing. This is why I will shortly use an Integra 9.8 preamp/processor for this purpose, in conjunction with my Theta Six Shooter.

First Paragraph:
Wow, that's quite the state on how good the XA2 does. So I take it that the 6 shooter handles all duties or is there a time when you're using a coax digital cable to feed dolby digital to the Extreme DAC's???


Second Paragraph:
Are you really sure the Integra 9.8 preamp/processor will sound better than the XA2??? I guess you've tested before ordering but wonder if the XA2 would outperform the Integra.

First Paragraph:
Wow, that's quite the state on how good the XA2 does. So I take it that the 6 shooter handles all duties or is there a time when you're using a coax digital cable to feed dolby digital to the Extreme DAC's???



Dolby True HD and Dolby Digital Plus sound great via Six Shooter.
Dolby Digital sounds good via Six Shooter from Toshiba HD DVD player, but not as good as coaxial to Extreme DACs.
That was via my old XA1 (not the XA2 - just got Integtra HD DVD similar to XA2 but haven't tested yet)

First Paragraph:

Second Paragraph:
Are you really sure the Integra 9.8 preamp/processor will sound better than the XA2??? I guess you've tested before ordering but wonder if the XA2 would outperform the Integra.

If I don't have it yet how do I test it? Any ideas. Its on its way.

If I don't have it yet how do I test it? Any ideas. Its on its way.


No ideas........just wondering. I'm sure we all would like to know how this works out for you.

Dolby Digital sounds good via Six Shooter from Toshiba HD DVD player, but not as good as coaxial to Extreme DACs.



So how close was the 6 shooter compared to the Extreme DAC's?.......close or pretty far off? Any guess at how you think Dolby Digital via the 6 shooter would compare to the Standard DAC's I have?......against the Superior II DAC's?

All input will help me make sort things out.

No John, not reading too many brochures- actually pricing the individual components.

i guess I'm saying that I'd never hire someone for that kind of money or even 10% of that to do an *inwall* home theater that looks nice, but ultimately can't keep up with a true high-end system set up properly, especially in imaging. I suppose if you must have the best semi-invisible sound possible, you can spend 10 times as much for the extra few percent, though, to be honest, I'd still get the Meridian system and hire an engineering genius with the money left over. Just my opinion. I don't think CAT suddenly sprouted the kind of abilities Meridian has been honing for decades. They started out doing what, high-end tube amps and preamps? Now they're the masters of home theater and speakers suddenly? Good business decision, but I'm skeptical. Of course, maybe they just need to do a website that looks less like a couple of kids starting a car stereo business to be more convincing :)

Steve's feedback saying that I can get the 6 shooter which has all the inputs needed for lossless and my Naim CD player is great feedback. I guess now I need to figure out whether to get this or save and do the CBIII and Superior II DAC upgrade.

I think some of these posts are getting so long that some of the most important information is getting lost, unless I'm reading this all wrong.

The Cassablanca 1 can in no way make use of the Six-Shooter!
So, you cannot just get away with simply adding one for $2,500 and expect the problem to be solved.
Even if you keep your current DACS, you will still need to upgrade your CBI to a III

So how close was the 6 shooter compared to the Extreme DAC's?.......close or pretty far off? Any guess at how you think Dolby Digital via the 6 shooter would compare to the Standard DAC's I have?......against the Superior II DAC's?

All input will help me make sort things out.

OK. My "old" Toshiba HD-XA1.

1. Coaxial output to CB3 Xtreme DACs. Compared to #2 definely better sounding and preferable.

2. Multi-channel analog outputs via Six Shooter. Sounds really nice and if you didn't AB it with #1 you'd be happy. But particularly on music DVDs the difference is more clearly discernable.

Standard DACs suck in comparison and my bet is #2 will sound better for you.

After reading one of your posts, i do want to say that I agree with Jeff that a product that can handle lossless sound over HDMI, especially one with room correction as well, vs taking either a lossy digital or lossless over analog, will sound better.

I disagree. You can take an analog siginal out of an SACD player into and analog pre-amp say an Esoteric piece and say a Audio Research Reference 3 and it will still sound better than a surround processor taking 24/96 in over HDMI. In fact, Audiman considers the Toshiba A1 HDDVD player and Six shooter better than the Anthem pre-pro which has both HDMI and room correction. I say buy a Velodyne SMS1 and crossover at 80hz. That will solve most of your "bass correction" problems as that is what the majority of the surround processor are doing, bass correction. Buy some Real traps and call it a day.

Second Paragraph:
Are you really sure the Integra 9.8 preamp/processor will sound better than the XA2??? I guess you've tested before ordering but wonder if the XA2 would outperform the Integra.

I predict the Six Shooter, Velodyne SMS-1, Toshiba combination will beat the Intergra, HDMI and all.

John:

CALIFORNIA AUDIO TECHNOLOGY inc. = CAT makes speakers, solid-state amps, DSPs

convergent audio technology inc= C.A.T. makes tube amps, preamps, etc.

I believe you are confused.

And actually, good speaker design has been basically the same for 50 years- the material used in those designs has changed, but the basic designs remain the same.

CAT started-out making speakers that were application-specific back when in-walls were only available from Sonance, and Niles did volume controls and outdoor speakers.
At that time no-one was using enclosures in-wall, and definitely not custom making them to fit in each particular installation- btw, Meridian still doesn't do that, and their new in-wall uses SEAS Excel drivers- CAT dropped the SEAS several years ago, and have their own driver manufacturing now---so who's really following?

nice shot at the website- you never did answer any of my questions, how much would you charge? what do you use to measure? and what are those speakers in your showroom walls made out of?

Dan

I think some of these posts are getting so long that some of the most important information is getting lost, unless I'm reading this all wrong.

The Cassablanca 1 can in no way make use of the Six-Shooter!
So, you cannot just get away with simply adding one for $2,500 and expect the problem to be solved.
Even if you keep your current DACS, you will still need to upgrade your CBI to a III

Great points. Also,the CBIII changed the way dither is calculated. Supposedly, this is also a reason for the improved sonics. The newer operation system of the CB3 also resulted in better measured signals to noise ratios, at least that is the information that I was given.

apologies for derailment.

Dan

Thanks Bulldogger,

That's good info to know. I could get the 6 shooter that Steve suggested for around $2,500 (at least I thought this was the price) but this would only benefit lossless which who knows right now how long it will last. It seems that getting to the CBIII with Superior II DAC's could be the way to go especially since I would benefit for all movies watched. Do you mind me asking how much you paid for this conversion and when was it done??? Did you get 15% off on the DAC's when going to the CBIII???


Past upgrade policy gave the discount if you upgraded the dacs at the same time as the CBII to CBIII upgrade. I paid 3 grand for a demo Casablanca II, then 2k for the CBII to CBIII upgrade and then 2175.00 for each Superior II card and that includes the discount for a total of 6350.00. I then bought two Six shooters. I have volume control for 12 analog channels. I actually prefer a parametric EQ like the Rane PE17 because you can "dial in" the exact frequencies that are problematic but the Veledyne SMS-1 works well. The Rane is a lot more difficult to set-up but you have finer precision than the Velodyne SMS-1.

I think I just ruined Roberts whole day :(

apologies for derailment.

Dan

:D. Yea, I was trying to post you both out to keep the thread on track, ala Steve Bruzonsky;).

CALIFORNIA AUDIO TECHNOLOGY inc. = CAT makes speakers, solid-state amps, DSPs

convergent audio technology inc= C.A.T. makes tube amps, preamps, etc.


Ah, got it, though I think the confusion is somewhat understandable.

And actually, good speaker design has been basically the same for 50 years- the material used in those designs has changed, but the basic designs remain the same.

Ah hah. So then the 10x prices for the 50 year old technology makes sense....how?

At that time no-one was using enclosures in-wall, and definitely not custom making them to fit in each particular installation- btw, Meridian still doesn't do that, and their new in-wall uses SEAS Excel drivers- CAT dropped the SEAS several years ago, and have their own driver manufacturing now---so who's really following?

Building your own drivers offers no guarantee of better performance. That is a great advertising bullet point though!

nice shot at the website

Well deserved too! You have to admit, that's an awful website. You'd think they could afford a web designer.

- you never did answer any of my questions, how much would you charge?

Oh, probably another $5K-$10K max.

what do you use to measure?

Largely my ears, but I could buy the equipment if necessary. Keep in mind, this is the 49th poorest state in the nation, so the demand doesn't warrant it.

and what are those speakers in your showroom walls made out of?

Those? Sealed 2x4/2x6 with MDF. But again, they're in walls. There's only so much you can do to make them sound amazing. The Revel Studio2s should take up primary residence as the main sound source by week's end.

Don't get me wrong, if you have people that are willing to spend 6 figures on home theater, i say take it! i don't, or I'd figure out how to do it in the best way possible. I literally have zero customers here in New Mexico that will pay big bucks to move towards perfection. In fact, most people would rather buy a more expensive amp than treat their rooms, even when i tell them their system sounds no where near what it should because of their tile floors and vibrating plaster board. If the answer to the question 'what price [near] perfection?' is 'who cares?', then that is the system. Though, maybe I should pick up Goldmund and move in on your territory ;)

I disagree. You can take an analog siginal out of an SACD player into and analog pre-amp say an Esoteric piece and say a Audio Research Reference 3 and it will still sound better than a surround processor taking 24/96 in over HDMI.

Well, sure, if you want to go analog preamp all the way, get a 5.1 unit, but you lose so much capability.

I predict the Six Shooter, Velodyne SMS-1, Toshiba combination will beat the Intergra, HDMI and all.

The question for me is simply whether DA conversion in the Integra will sound better than DA conversion in the HD DVD player. I will find out.:D

I haven't heard CAT speakers in some years, about four years ago when I last attended CES. I was never impressed at all. But maybe they're much better now, I don't know.

:D. Yea, I was trying to post you both out to keep the thread on track, ala Steve Bruzonsky;).

Guess I replied to the wrong post and really meant to reply to Bigbrother52 instead when he said:
I think I just ruined Roberts whole day


No, I appreciate the honesty. It seems that you were the only one to see the obvious. I should have known getting a six shooter only with my CBI was too easy.

I guess the one thing I'm starting to get out of all the replies is that many are at such a higher level than I currently am right now. It seems that many probably couldn't live my CBI where it actually still puts a smile on my face. Basically all the input is helping but it does get hard since I have to interpret reality for my system and setup. I really believe that me upgrading the CBI to a CBIII even keeping my DAC's for now would probably benefit sonically in a lot of ways even though some couldn't live without the Extreme DAC's. Bulldogger gave a reply towards the end saying there's a lower noise floor with the CBIII which in my limited experience usually means more details and air around musical instruments being presented. I just have a hard time believing there wouldn't be absolutely little or no sonic benefit with the CBIII even if I kept my Standard DAC's or even just upgrade to the Premium DAC's instead. It might hold me over for another 10 years..........LOL

It's all good. I'm just really trying to figure out the best bang for the buck without buying into a format that dies shortly afterwards. Who knows......this hobby seems to get so hard to figure out especially not knowing if new formats will survive such lossless via Blu-Ray that maybe I should just invest the money in the best wide screen TV available.........hehehe

Anyway I thought you decided to get the XA2 after I posted how much better it sounded. Did you ever get one?

Guess I replied to the wrong post and really meant to reply to Bigbrother52 instead when he said:
I think I just ruined Roberts whole day


No, I appreciate the honesty. It seems that you were the only one to see the obvious. I should have known getting a six shooter only with my CBI was too easy.

I guess the one thing I'm starting to get out of all the replies is that many are at such a higher level than I currently am right now. It seems that many probably couldn't live my CBI where it actually still puts a smile on my face. Basically all the input is helping but it does get hard since I have to interpret reality for my system and setup. I really believe that me upgrading the CBI to a CBIII even keeping my DAC's for now would probably benefit sonically in a lot of ways even though some seem couldn't live without the Extreme DAC's. Bulldogger gave a reply towards the end saying there's a lower noise floor with the CBIII which in my limited experience usually means more details and air around musical instruments being presented. I just have a hard time believing there wouldn't be absolutely little or no sonic benefit with the CBIII even if I kept my Standard DAC's or even just upgrade to the Premium DAC's instead of the Premium. It might hold me over for another 10 years.

It's all good. I'm just really trying to figure out the best bang for the buck without buying into a format that died. Who knows......this hobby seems to get so hard to figure out especially not knowing if new formats will survive such lossless via Blu-Ray that maybe I should just invest the money in the best wide screen TV available.........hehehe

Anyway I thought you decided to get the XA2 after I posted how much better it sounded. Did you ever get one?

You compared the XA2 to some other player. I already had the XA1. But I just got the Integra HD DVD and a Panasonic Blu Ray but still putting new video together and no chance to play sonically yet - plus my Integra preamp/processor is on its way to connect via HDMI from the players, then analog multi-channel out from the Integra to my Six pack (I mean Six Shooter)!!!@@@

Steve, you realize of course that there's no way for adding another layer of cabling and electronics can make your sound any better, right? Or are you still using the CBIII as a stereo preamp too?

Steve, you realize of course that there's no way for adding another layer of cabling and electronics can make your sound any better, right? Or are you still using the CBIII as a stereo preamp too?


What are you talkin' about????

I use my Theta Compli via digital balanced cable to CB3 for redbook with Extreme DACs.

I use my Theta Compli via multi-channel analog to my Six Shooter for DVD-A and SACD.

I was using my Toshiba XA1 HD-DVD player multi-channel analog out to my Six Shooter for HD DVD DD+ and Dolby True HD tracks. But now will be trying HDMI from an Integra HD DVD and Panasonic BD30K Blu Ray, via HDMI to an Integra 9.8 preamp/processor, for this purpose.

Steve, it's "whatchoo talkinabout Willis?"

I'm saying that you might as well get the CB out of the way so you can hear all of the high-rez sound, rather than running more electronics and cabling in the pathway.

Oh, the humanity, having to sully your CB with an Integra as a high-rez DAC.

Might as well put the CB on your catapult and launch it, we could have cross border boat anchor wars :)

Steve, it's "whatchoo talkinabout Willis?"

I'm saying that you might as well get the CB out of the way so you can hear all of the high-rez sound, rather than running more electronics and cabling in the pathway.

Oh, the humanity, having to sully your CB with an Integra as a high-rez DAC.

Might as well put the CB on your catapult and launch it, we could have cross border boat anchor wars :)


I think you've been in bed too long with The Bland!!!@@@

The CB is sooo old and sooo dated, I can't believe anyone would use it for movie sound today... Particularly on this forum. It is no better than a 10 year old Lexicon in terms of functionality and sound (analof audio ins and simple SDPIF inputs). Glad Steve gave it up for the $1500 Integra..... a fraction of the price but far greater sound. The only reason I see to hang on to a CB is they have been so devalued by Theta, so it has little value on the used market.... At this point, it is a discontinued piece of crap. Why would ATI bother retrofitting new technology to an old box?

Wait until 2009?? Forget it... Dump it and enjoy the lossless sound. I'll bet ATI doesn't even support it with HDMI. Why would they want to buy a company, resurrect a out of date piece, re-engineer it and give it away to current theta owners for a few grand. They won't... If there are any upgrades, it will be $5K minimum or, likely, some sort of credfit to the new model.

But, I am an eternal Theta basher, so take it with a grain of salt;)

Anyway I thought you decided to get the XA2 after I posted how much better it sounded. Did you ever get one?

Never got it. The week I shopped for an HD-DVD player, the only XA-2 I found was $900, they seemed to be pretty rare all the way back then.
So, I ordered an A-3 dispite what you said about it for the bedroom, just to use in stereo mode. Three days later the war was over and XA-2s started turning up all over the place. I'm not sure if I'll get one or not anymore.

I plugged the A3 into my system for 1 movie. Toslink into my video processor and digital coax to the CB, it wasn't half as bad as I expected!

But, I am an eternal Theta basher, so take it with a grain of salt;)


Don't worry.......I already have taken whatever I see you post with a grain of salt. I've learned long ago in life that anyone that goes on an emotion rant with an obvious bias really isn't worth listening to.

The CB is sooo old and sooo dated, I can't believe anyone would use it for movie sound today... Particularly on this forum. It is no better than a 10 year old Lexicon in terms of functionality and sound (analof audio ins and simple SDPIF inputs). Glad Steve gave it up for the $1500 Integra..... a fraction of the price but far greater sound. The only reason I see to hang on to a CB is they have been so devalued by Theta, so it has little value on the used market.... At this point, it is a discontinued piece of crap. Why would ATI bother retrofitting new technology to an old box?

Wait until 2009?? Forget it... Dump it and enjoy the lossless sound. I'll bet ATI doesn't even support it with HDMI. Why would they want to buy a company, resurrect a out of date piece, re-engineer it and give it away to current theta owners for a few grand. They won't... If there are any upgrades, it will be $5K minimum or, likely, some sort of credfit to the new model.

But, I am an eternal Theta basher, so take it with a grain of salt;)

You are a PROUD ETERNAL THETA BASHER!!!! But if folks demo your system vs mine, its you they will be bashing. TOUCHE!

My CB3 and Six Shooter ain't goin' nowhere. I've said many times the Integra piece is only for HDMI multi-channel audio, so please don't misquote me.

I don't recommend folks buy a new CB3 until HDMI shakes out. But it "sounds" like ATI Theta is aggressively working on it and hopes to have a demo at the next CEDIA. That is good news!!! And if Theta gets 1.3 HDMI then it'll be The Bland's Halcro that becomes old and outdated. Just like his haranguing!!!

You compared the XA2 to some other player. I already had the XA1. But I just got the Integra HD DVD and a Panasonic Blu Ray but still putting new video together and no chance to play sonically yet - plus my Integra preamp/processor is on its way to connect via HDMI from the players, then analog multi-channel out from the Integra to my Six pack (I mean Six Shooter)!!!@@@


Sorry if this upset you..........maybe you missed my first sentence when I explained replying to the wrong post and meant to reply to Bigbrother52 instead which he did answer farther down.

Sorry if this upset you..........maybe you missed my first sentence when I explained replying to the wrong post and meant to reply to Bigbrother52 instead which he did answer farther down.

I'm not upset - I was confused.:D

The CB is sooo old and sooo dated, I can't believe anyone would use it for movie sound today... Particularly on this forum. It is no better than a 10 year old Lexicon in terms of functionality and sound (analof audio ins and simple SDPIF inputs). Glad Steve gave it up for the $1500 Integra..... a fraction of the price but far greater sound. The only reason I see to hang on to a CB is they have been so devalued by Theta, so it has little value on the used market.... At this point, it is a discontinued piece of crap. Why would ATI bother retrofitting new technology to an old box?

Wait until 2009?? Forget it... Dump it and enjoy the lossless sound. I'll bet ATI doesn't even support it with HDMI. Why would they want to buy a company, resurrect a out of date piece, re-engineer it and give it away to current theta owners for a few grand. They won't... If there are any upgrades, it will be $5K minimum or, likely, some sort of credfit to the new model.

But, I am an eternal Theta basher, so take it with a grain of salt;)

Jeff, you are so lucky that Theta never accepted your offer some years ago of a free Casablanca to you for your wife's PR advise. If they did you might never have paid a few pennies to buy your Halcro and bash Theta!!!:eek:

I went from a CBII with the original Superior dacs. The Superior II dacs were installed when I upgraded from to CBIII. I hated the CBII with original Superior dacs and felt the CBIII with Superior II dacs was a big improvent. There is another dac, the Premium dac. It is a new dac. I have not seen any reports on how it sounds.


I wanted to go back to your older post and ask why you hated your CBII with the original Superior DAC's? What was so bad about the performance? Was it 2-channel audio or movies as well that you didn't like? I'm asking since it seems that movie sound tracks are in a completely different category as 2-channel music is. I couldn't stand listening to my standard DAC's either which is what led me to buying a Naim CDX CD player. The Naim CD player is just leaps and bounds better than the Theta DAC's for music. For movies, I have no problem using the CBI since the center channel does 70% or more of the sound. The Aerial Acoustic center channel is hard to beat for this. Anyway I was curious exactly what you hated about your CBII at the time especially if not liking it for Dolby Digital performance.

Can't anyone provide feedback on what sonic improvement a CBIII provides even without considering DAC upgrades??? Can no one talk down to my level or is everyone's system in the clouds as far as performance goes. I guess it all can't be that good if most are looking at improving the sound.

I understand the advice to wait and see how HDMI work out and what Theta will do but still would like to know what bang for the buck I would get by merely upgrading my CBI to a CBIII. I might do Superior II DAC's as well but don't want to cloud the issue with trying to find out what sonic improvements the base CBIII makes.

robertrobert, I don't know about the high rollers here but I don't trust my impressions of the CBI to CBIII when they are several weeks apart. Maybe if one could set them side by side and run them back to back yes but on memory no. That's a bit tough to do when you send it off to Theta and it comes back different. At least for me anyway.

I swear my car handles better after I wash it, if that has any implications.

The CB is sooo old and sooo dated, I can't believe anyone would use it for movie sound today... Particularly on this forum. It is no better than a 10 year old Lexicon in terms of functionality and sound (analof audio ins and simple SDPIF inputs). Glad Steve gave it up for the $1500 Integra..... a fraction of the price but far greater sound. The only reason I see to hang on to a CB is they have been so devalued by Theta, so it has little value on the used market.... At this point, it is a discontinued piece of crap. Why would ATI bother retrofitting new technology to an old box?

Wait until 2009?? Forget it... Dump it and enjoy the lossless sound. I'll bet ATI doesn't even support it with HDMI. Why would they want to buy a company, resurrect a out of date piece, re-engineer it and give it away to current theta owners for a few grand. They won't... If there are any upgrades, it will be $5K minimum or, likely, some sort of credfit to the new model.

But, I am an eternal Theta basher, so take it with a grain of salt;)

Jeff is to Theta what Hugo Chavez is to the US :)

I'll second that.( not the comment about Jeff, the statement that Les made ) And I don't even own a Theta- just used them several times now. I idon't know what you should expect by going from CBI to CBIII, but I thought I made it pretty clear that unless you play at the Extreme DAC level with the Theta- I think that it's too close to call CBIII vs any of the other good preamps out there, especially the Halcro.

Ah, but there isn't all love and flowers in Halcro land either....Vinci Labs went belly-up, now Halcro has to find someone to build their preamps for them....and whose it 'gonna be? We shall see.

Like I said: top for SOUND is CBIII with gen 8, 2.) is CBIII with Xtreme, after that you can pick any ADA, Halcro, or Anthem Statement preamp you want and have a very good sounding, nearly bullet-proof processor.

Robert, when you really sit down and think about it: you can't go wrong!

Dan

I have a CBIII sitting on top of my CBI but there is no way to directly compare the two. One has Superior and the other has Extreme DACS.
Just the crossover setting alone on the CBIII change the sound to such a great extent, there is simply no comparison.

Robert, something that might matter to you for your Naim CD player if you start looking for other pre/pros. Many digitize the input and then convert back to analog on the output. No analog direct. I don't know about the ones Dan mentioned one way or the other or even if the difference would be audible. Just something to throw into the mix.

Can't anyone provide feedback on what sonic improvement a CBIII provides even without considering DAC upgrades??? Can no one talk down to my level or is everyone's system in the clouds as far as performance goes. I guess it all can't be that good if most are looking at improving the sound.

I understand the advice to wait and see how HDMI work out and what Theta will do but still would like to know what bang for the buck I would get by merely upgrading my CBI to a CBIII. I might do Superior II DAC's as well but don't want to cloud the issue with trying to find out what sonic improvements the base CBIII makes.

I started out with a CB1 with Superior DACs back in 1997. Four years later, upgrade to CB2 but no DAC change. Clearly a sonic and functional improvement. Two years later upgraded to Extreme DACs. Then, two years later, upgraded to CB3, and I "felt" that it still sounded somewhat better.
Does that help?

Still, you need to ask yourself how much you wanna spend on a platform that will not give you HDMI multi-channel audio AND when you don't know yet if an upgrade will be available to the latest HDMI platform and at what cost.

I still luv my Theta.:cool:

Jeff is to Theta what Hugo Chavez is to the US :)

Jeff isn't quite that bad, is he??? But that is a funny analogy!:mad:

Thanks everyone for the posts and not blasting me out of the water as I've seen on some of the other threads. Anyway, it looks like I have enough feedback to figure this out. I thought I mentioned it early on but in case I didn't, a direct analog route that leaves the L and R analog signals untouched is a must for my Naim CD player. Sending it through any extra conversions simply does not make any sense along with having a very high chance of degrading the overall sound quality. I'm not sure if any of the other processors such as the Halcro offer this or not. Anyway it seems that a lot of Theta customers are wanting to see what Theta is going to offer regarding HDMI and how much.

Robert

I'd rather have the CB3 instead of the annoying "BRRRRRRZT" sound using HDMI connections on the Lexicon MC-12HD BAL (w/latest firmware). What a piece 'O crap.

HDMI is the bane of HT... No question.

HDMI is the bane of HT... No question.

ANd you are the "BANE" of Theta Digital.

"I'd rather have the CB3 instead of the annoying "BRRRRRRZT" sound using HDMI connections on the Lexicon MC-12HD BAL (w/latest firmware). What a piece 'O crap."

Not sure what noise you mean but if you are getting noises on format detect changes:

Setup->Inputs->whatever input you are using->Main Advanced->Format Detect: FAST.

Shawn

Argh... Lexicon made me a liar. They just came out with 1.21 firmware on 2/29. Another 45 minutes to go...

I'll verify the setting is set for FAST. I thought it was but can't remember now.

Anyway it seems that a lot of Theta customers are wanting to see what Theta is going to offer regarding HDMI and how much

Yup! The way I look at it, why not wait. I wouldn't buy into the hype right now with HDMI anyway. HDMI isn't all it's cracked up to be at the moment. Many products still have issues (especially receivers). Jumping into a HD format for movie watching is nice, but unless you have netflix (which I personally dropped because of all the bad discs I was receiving) the options aren't exactly great. Not to sure about your area, but my local shops don't have S#%t for HD formats for rent, and 90% of what they do have is older movies that I have already seen. I sure as hell don't want to buy every movie I want to see in HD.

The format war just ended, HDMI is maturing, Theta will have an announcement by years end. I say let the dust settle, enjoy what you have, and when the time comes, spend the money where it makes sense. Summer is around the corner anyway, by the time it ends you'll know where you stand.

HDMI is the bane of HT... No question.

Yup!

Yup! The way I look at it, why not wait. I wouldn't buy into the hype right now with HDMI anyway. HDMI isn't all it's cracked up to be at the moment. Many products still have issues (especially receivers). Jumping into a HD format for movie watching is nice, but unless you have netflix (which I personally dropped because of all the bad discs I was receiving) the options aren't exactly great. Not to sure about your area, but my local shops don't have S#%t for HD formats for rent, and 90% of what they do have is older movies that I have already seen. I sure as hell don't want to buy every movie I want to see in HD.

The format war just ended, HDMI is maturing, Theta will have an announcement by years end. I say let the dust settle, enjoy what you have, and when the time comes, spend the money where it makes sense. Summer is around the corner anyway, by the time it ends you'll know where you stand.


Thanks.......sounds like very solid advice.

Bane broke Batman's back in the comics. But The Bland as a BANE to Theta is merely a lisp in the wind!!!@@

I wanted to go back to your older post and ask why you hated your CBII with the original Superior DAC's? What was so bad about the performance? Was it 2-channel audio or movies as well that you didn't like? I'm asking since it seems that movie sound tracks are in a completely different category as 2-channel music is. I couldn't stand listening to my standard DAC's either which is what led me to buying a Naim CDX CD player. The Naim CD player is just leaps and bounds better than the Theta DAC's for music. For movies, I have no problem using the CBI since the center channel does 70% or more of the sound. The Aerial Acoustic center channel is hard to beat for this. Anyway I was curious exactly what you hated about your CBII at the time especially if not liking it for Dolby Digital performance.

I had a California Audio Labs SSP 2500 processor . When I bought the CBII with the original Superior dacs, it easily outperformed it on everything,music and dolby digital. The CBII sounded muffled in comparison to the Cal. Sound stage was not there. The CBII was more mechanical sounding and not as detailed. Really I can't say that the CBII with original Superior dacs did anything as well as the Cal audio piece. I figured I might as well press ahead and go for the upgrade as I did not know what other course to pursue. When I recieved the updated unit with the new Superior II dacs, the difference between the Cal and the Theta largely disappeared. The Cal still bettered the Theta CBIII with red book and 24/96 two channel recordings with the Superior II dacs. The Cal unit uses the best series Burr-brown 1704 dac. In order to get that series 1704, the 1704K, I need to buy the Xteme dac which is what I plan to do now that I know it will work with HDMI. Also, the Cal audio has a better analog pre-amp section than that built into the Casablanca. I mean that's so easy to hear it's not even funny. However, the Six Shooter is the best solid state pre-amp I have had in my system. It easily beat the Cal audio piece and every pre-amp that I've compared it against around the 5K range though I'd like to try that again. I suspect some of the pre-amps around 5k have really improved and the difference may not be there now. For 5 years, I owned the Cal Audio piece. When I put the CBII with original dacs into my system, I knew right off,"another one bites the dust," as it had beaten every other pre-pro I had used in the time I owned it . So, when I recieved the CBIII back with the Superior II dacs, it was the first time that a pre-pro had held it's own against that piece. There was no mistaking the before and after improvements of the upgrade.

I don't recommend folks buy a new CB3 until HDMI shakes out. But it "sounds" like ATI Theta is aggressively working on it and hopes to have a demo at the next CEDIA. That is good news!!! And if Theta gets 1.3 HDMI then it'll be The Bland's Halcro that becomes old and outdated. Just like his haranguing!!!

I did not get specifics about exactly how it will work. However knowing that my investment in the Superior II dacs will not be wasted made me feel better. Selling those after I upgrade to the Xtreme dacs will help. As you know, I was skeptical that ATI would pursue an upgrade for the Casablanca. At this point, I am fairly certain that it will happen.

I had a California Audio Labs SSP 2500 processor . When I bought the CBII with the original Superior dacs, it easily outperformed it on everything,music and dolby digital. The CBII sounded muffled in comparison to the Cal. Sound stage was not there. The CBII was more mechanical sounding and not as detailed. Really I can't say that the CBII with original Superior dacs did anything as well as the Cal audio piece. I figured I might as well press ahead and go for the upgrade as I did not know what other course to pursue. When I recieved the updated unit with the new Superior II dacs, the difference between the Cal and the Theta largely disappeared. The Cal still bettered the Theta CBIII with red book and 24/96 two channel recordings with the Superior II dacs. The Cal unit uses the best series Burr-brown 1704 dac. In order to get that series 1704, the 1704K, I need to buy the Xteme dac which is what I plan to do now that I know it will work with HDMI. Also, the Cal audio has a better analog pre-amp section than that built into the Casablanca. I mean that's so easy to hear it's not even funny. However, the Six Shooter is the best solid state pre-amp I have had in my system. It easily beat the Cal audio piece and every pre-amp that I've compared it against around the 5K range though I'd like to try that again. I suspect some of the pre-amps around 5k have really improved and the difference may not be there now. For 5 years, I owned the Cal Audio piece. When I put the CBII with original dacs into my system, I knew right off,"another one bites the dust," as it had beaten every other pre-pro I had used in the time I owned it . So, when I recieved the CBIII back with the Superior II dacs, it was the first time that a pre-pro had held it's own against that piece. There was no mistaking the before and after improvements of the upgrade.


Thanks a bunch for all the details. It now makes sense exactly what you experienced through your upgrades. It sounds similar to what DanFrancis said in that the Superior II DAC's would sound similar to other top processors he listed while the Extreme DAC's is what really sets the CBIII apart from all other processors out there.

To tell you the truth, I'm sure I would be more than happy to live with the Superior II DAC's especially with using my CB for 99% movies but I'm sure the Extreme DAC's would be the best way to go.

Thanks a bunch for all the details. It now makes sense exactly what you experienced through your upgrades. It sounds similar to what DanFrancis said in that the Superior II DAC's would sound similar to other top processors he listed while the Extreme DAC's is what really sets the CBIII apart from all other processors out there.

To tell you the truth, I'm sure I would be more than happy to live with the Superior II DAC's especially with using my CB for 99% movies but I'm sure the Extreme DAC's would be the best way to go.

Also, when the Burr-brown 1704 dac replaced the 1702, most reviews highly favored the new dac. The original Superior dac uses the 1702 which is a 20 bit dac. The 1704 is a 24 bit dac. Many of the high end processors use much cheaper delta sigma dacs and not multi-bit dacs. There is debate as to if this makes a difference but there is not doubt that the Burr-brown dacs multi0bit dacs are more expensive. I think the new Premium but lower cost dac my use a delta-sigma lower cost dac. I think in some cases the delta sigma dacs are about 1/10 the cost. What I am saying about the differences between the 1702/Original Supeiror dac is backed up by improved objective performance of the 1704 in both signal to noise ratio and the ability of the dac to resolve more being a 24 bit dac. And again,the newer software of the CB3 vs the CB2 resulted in measured lower noise. Because the original Superior dac is a 20 bit dac is also the reason that it will not work for the new audio formats via HDMI.

. It sounds similar to what DanFrancis said in that the Superior II DAC's would sound similar to other top processors he listed while the Extreme DAC's is what really sets the CBIII apart from all other processors out there.


Actually no. The Superior II dac is still a much more expensive solution than what most of the other high-end pre-pros are using. The new Premium dac which cost about 1500.00 per card and I believe uses delta sigma dacs is more inline with what most of the feild is using.

does anyone know what DAC model number is used for the Premium?

does anyone know what DAC model number is used for the Premium?

I e-mailed Theta and got a response a while back but have forgotten the model number. All I can remember is that it is a Burr-brown 24/192 dac. E-mail tech support at Theta and you'll get an answer.

I e-mailed Theta and got a response a while back but have forgotten the model number. All I can remember is that it is a Burr-brown 24/192 dac. E-mail tech support at Theta and you'll get an answer.


Hey bulldogger,

Do you happen to know what the superior II and extreme dacs are? Does the 24/192 for the premium mean it isn't a sigma delta version dac? I'm just wondering if the premium would actually compete with most processors out there not that the higher end dacs wouldn't be the better way to go.

Robert

Nice to see dicussions on Theta continuing

Nice to see dicussions on Theta continuingYeah. Possibly livelier than the company at this point. :rolleyes:

Hey bulldogger,

Do you happen to know what the superior II and extreme dacs are? Does the 24/192 for the premium mean it isn't a sigma delta version dac? I'm just wondering if the premium would actually compete with most processors out there not that the higher end dacs wouldn't be the better way to go.

Robert

The Superior II and Xtreme dacs are Burr-Brown 1704 dacs. However the 1704 comes in different grades. The best is the 1704K dac which is in the xtreme. I belive the Premium dac is a delta-sigma dac if I am recalling correctly. I remember checking the price and it is about the same level, cost wise, as what most other high-end processor are using. Of course it's more complicated than which dac and how much it cost. With some many other factors involved in the design of a pre-pro, it's hard to speculate how it compares to other high end processors for sound quality. For example, I've head some reasonably priced dacs that use inexpensive cheap and sound pretty good. The Premium dacs very well could be good performers. They do make it possilbe to buy a CBIII and hopefully the upgrade model for around 10K new with 7.1 channels.

Yeah. Possibly livelier than the company at this point. :rolleyes:

Yeah, things are slow. If you listen closely though, you can hear the wheels at Theta have started to grind. I went from negative to cautious optimism. Still, way to early to see how things will sort out. Right now, with Blu-ray having won the format battle, there is only one format with the DTS-HD and Dolby True HD. I've said all along that I might continue to use my two Six Shooters, especially if companies like Esoteric and Mcintosh get into Blu-ray game. It's a situation much like SACD was for most of it's history. Still for home theater, I'd prefer to dump all of the cables and have a high-rez digital connection.

Bulldogger, mostly idle curiosity but to run two six shooters did you just Y the control cable or was it a custom Theta thing to handle a second?

Bulldogger, mostly idle curiosity but to run two six shooters did you just Y the control cable or was it a custom Theta thing to handle a second?

Each Six Shooter has two inputs marked data 1 and data 2. I run data from the Casablanca into input 1 of the first Six Shooter and then run a cable from the the data 2 of the first Six Shooter into data 1 of the second Six shooter. The second Six Shooter has to be specially configured at the factory to handle channels 7-12. Internally, the second Six Shooter, has some sort of jumper which allows it to handles channels 7-12. I think it is simple to remove this jumper and convert it back to a "normal" Six Shooter. Any interconnect works for the data control of the Six Shooter, a cable intended for video or audio.

Thanks. Not sure I'll ever add a second Six Shooter but good to know that it can be done and preserve the ability to control individual channel level.

I e-mailed Theta and got a response a while back but have forgotten the model number. All I can remember is that it is a Burr-brown 24/192 dac. E-mail tech support at Theta and you'll get an answer.



I received a PDF from Carl that details the premium dac specs. Here it is since it won't allow me to paste the PDF document here.

____________________________________________________________ ____

Premium Quality Balanced D/A Output Card
Output Options:
Slot 1-3: (One of the following, each):
Front Left, Right, Center, Surround Center or Sub 5.
Front Left, Right, Side Left, Right Front Left, Right, Center, Sub 4
Sub 1, Sub 2, Sub 3, Sub 4 Front Left, Right, Center, Sub 3
Side Left, Right, Sub 3, Sub 4 Front Left, Right, Center, Sub 2
Front Left, Right, Sub 1, Sub 2 Side Left, Right, Sub 2, Sub 3
Surround Left, Right, Sub 1, Sub 2 Sub 2, Surround Center or Sub 5, Side Left,
Right
Surround Left, Right, Sub 2, Sub 3 Front Center, Surround Left, Right, Sub 2
Front Center, Sub 1, Sub 2, Sub 3 Front Center, Side Left, Right, Sub 2
Front Center, Sub 1, Surround Left, Right
Front Left, Right, Surround Left, Right
Surround Left, Right, Side Left, Right
Front Left, Right, Center, Sub 1
Sub 1, Sub 2, Sub 3, Surround Center or Sub 5
Surround Left, Right, Center or Sub 5, Sub 1
Surround Left, Right, Center or Sub 5, Sub 2
Front Center, Surround Center or Sub 5, Surround Left, Right
Front Center, Surround Center or Sub 5, Side Left, Right
Sub 2 , Sub 3, Sub 4, Surround Center or Sub 5
Each output channel has a balanced (XLR) output connector only.
D/A Conversion: 24-bit Ladder (8x oversampling – 4x @96K). Two DACs per channel (8 per board) for true
differential operation.
Volume Control: Theta proprietary switched resistor network in the analog domain.
Digital Filter: 8x digital interpolation followed by 64x delta-sigma modulator
Single-Ended Output: None
Sample Rates Supported: 32KHz, 44.1 KHz, 48 KHz, 88.1 KHz, 96 KHz, 176 KHz, 192 KHz.
Balanced Output Specifications:
Output Impedance: 50 Ohms.
Maximum Output Level: 20 Vrms balanced.
Frequency Response: 20 Hz-20 kHz, ± 0.025 dB, Ref. 1KHz.
THD+Noise: Less than 0.0015% @ 1KHz, maximum output level.
Dynamic Range: 105dB minimum, 20KHz bandwidth, Ref. 1KHZ, A-weighted.
Signal to Noise Ratio: 105dB typical, idle channel, A-weighted.
Crosstalk: > 110dB channel to channel @ 20KHz.
PREMIUM

____________________________________________________________ ____

Can anyone tell by the above how close the premium dacs would compare to the Superior II's? I would think it would be considerably more than the Superior II's to the Xtremes since the Premium dacs are a delta sigma version. There's also a sheet I believe in the back of the latest CB manual (on Theta's web site) that shows the premium dacs NOT going through any DSP processing chip like the Superior II and Xtreme dacs do.

I guess I'm wondering strongly why Theta doesn't have at least one review done with the CBIII configured with Premium dacs. I know they want a reviewer to have the top level Xtremes but the performance of the premium dacs could push more folks into buying a lower priced CBIII with premium dacs as compared to another surround processor......just a thought.

A little off topic, but does anyone know what DACs the Theta Gen VIII uses?

Anyone think the Gen VIII is still a state of the art D/A converter and preamplifier given it was introduced a few years ago?

I'm considering one given how blown away I am with my new Theta Citadel 1.5s mono amplifiers.

I'm with you on that question. Assuming I stick with Theta, I'd like to hook one up to my CBIII. As to DACs, I seem to remember John Bailoff telling me once that it had the extreme DACs in it...but that was a few years ago so others might know differently.

I'm with you on that question. Assuming I stick with Theta, I'd like to hook one up to my CBIII. As to DACs, I seem to remember John Bailoff telling me once that it had the extreme DACs in it...but that was a few years ago so others might know differently.


I don't believe that is true. There's a post some place on this forum (I believe under the $20K plus site) where BigBrother52 (I believe that is his username) said the best home theater processer he ever heard was the CBIII using a Theta VIII dacs. Second was using the CBIII with Xtremes. The Superior II's come within 10-15% of the perfomance of the Xtremes from everyone I've talked to. The premium dacs are more in line with what other processors use. This is why comparing the Xtremes let alone the Gen VIII dacs is really not a fair comparison for SQ with other processors out there. This is why I would like to know how good the premium dacs perform. It seems everyone is using either the Superior II's and Xtremes.

I don't believe that is true. There's a post some place on this forum (I believe under the $20K plus site) where BigBrother52 (I believe that is his username) said the best home theater processer he ever heard was the CBIII using a Theta VIII dacs. Second was using the CBIII with Xtremes. The Superior II's come within 10-15% of the perfomance of the Xtremes from everyone I've talked to. The premium dacs are more in line with what other processors use. This is why comparing the Xtremes let alone the Gen VIII dacs is really not a fair comparison for SQ with other processors out there. This is why I would like to know how good the premium dacs perform. It seems everyone is using either the Superior II's and Xtremes.

I can't take credit for the posts your refering to Robert, though I'm pretty much of the same mind. You can referance those posts by Dan Francis below.

OK fist things first: the current ATI processors were originally DiChiro designs (currently with Monster)- but there were reliability issues and sound quality issues that prevented them from being as good as they could be. Theta was brought in (under the Sinclair regime) to go through the designs and make whatever improvements needed to be made given the constraints of the existing chasis/electronics package. This was completed last year, and now the ATI processors sound quite good (the 6700 and the 8700 are currently shipping, the 7700 is still under improvement/development).

What I said regarding the Theta CBI does hold true for theater as well as movies, but admittedly less so for movies. Here's the way I see it: anyone can do movies well- for the most part the limitation of the soundtrack is put in place during the audio mastering and transfer. However, being able to do 2-channel music well is quite difficult.

Here's how I rate the current processors that I've used/listened to:

1.)CBIII with Gen VIII as DAC for at least L,R

2.)CBIII with Extreme DACs across the board

3.)tied-Halcro SSP100/200- however many of the Vinci labs chasis sound very similar (this, the Parasound Halo, etc.) I feel that Halcro is at least one of the most proactive manufacturers out there when it comes to solving bugs and performance issues, of which their processor has had many during its gestation.

3.)tied- ADA Cinema Rhapsody Mach III, Cinema Reference Mach III (same processor, different chasis, and connection capabilities) -this less that mainstream company has excellent customer service, and a fairly neutral sound that tends toward the warm side (in DIRECT mode) good product at a good value.

4.)also a tie- Lexicon, Rotel, Sunfire, Anthem (excepting the Statement- which I've heard is quite good, but haven't ever played-with), etc. All are very reliable pieces, and will get the job done for movies, but quite honestly don't hold a candle to the first three when it comes to music reproduction.

Where do I get any qualifications to make any of these statements? I've recently been doing alot of work with CAT on projects that are big, big $$$ (not mine- other dealers), and when you're dealing at that level- you really do hear the subtle differences between preamps. Over the years I've listened to these other products (same chasis/DSP chips as they are now), and I've found that unless you're at the top level- everyone else sounds pretty much the same--all good.

I guess the short answer is really a question: how much do you care? If you're the type that upgrades your driver (golf) everytime RAM, Calaway, Taylor Made, Nike develops a new alloy, or design- then you're probably the type to notice the differences.

Me, I care more about music than movies. I think that if you can do music well, you'll certainly do movies equally well.

My .02

Dan


I idon't know what you should expect by going from CBI to CBIII, but I thought I made it pretty clear that unless you play at the Extreme DAC level with the Theta- I think that it's too close to call CBIII vs any of the other good preamps out there, especially the Halcro.

Ah, but there isn't all love and flowers in Halcro land either....Vinci Labs went belly-up, now Halcro has to find someone to build their preamps for them....and whose it 'gonna be? We shall see.

Like I said: top for SOUND is CBIII with gen 8, 2.) is CBIII with Xtreme, after that you can pick any ADA, Halcro, or Anthem Statement preamp you want and have a very good sounding, nearly bullet-proof processor.

Robert, when you really sit down and think about it: you can't go wrong!

Dan

A little off topic, but does anyone know what DACs the Theta Gen VIII uses?

Anyone think the Gen VIII is still a state of the art D/A converter and preamplifier given it was introduced a few years ago?

Personally, I'm using all extreme Dacs but my Casablanca is set-up so I can use a GenVIII for the main stereo pair. If I can ever get around to it, I'd love to have one.

I've been told that Theta has no plan to change the GenVIII, so it is current and "still state of the art".
In fact, I've also heard that there may be a 20-30% price increase!

Hmm....maybe someone can chime in on how then is the CB3 connected to the Gen 8 as a dac?

Hmm....maybe someone can chime in on how then is the CB3 connected to the Gen 8 as a dac?

I had a 2 channel digital out card installed when I bought it so it's an easy hook up. :D

I can't take credit for the posts your refering to Robert, though I'm pretty much of the same mind. You can referance those posts by Dan Francis below.


Thanks a bunch for the correction. I've decided to keep my CBI and upgrade it. I just need to figure out the budget and when to make the jump.

Thanks a bunch for the correction. I've decided to keep my CBI and upgrade it. I just need to figure out the budget and when to make the jump.

When to jump is a big one these days.

I'm still kickin that one around for my CBI

I received a PDF from Carl that details the premium dac specs. Here it is since it won't allow me to paste the PDF document here.

____________________________________________________________ ____

Premium Quality Balanced D/A Output Card
Output Options:
Slot 1-3: (One of the following, each):
Front Left, Right, Center, Surround Center or Sub 5.
Front Left, Right, Side Left, Right Front Left, Right, Center, Sub 4
Sub 1, Sub 2, Sub 3, Sub 4 Front Left, Right, Center, Sub 3
Side Left, Right, Sub 3, Sub 4 Front Left, Right, Center, Sub 2
Front Left, Right, Sub 1, Sub 2 Side Left, Right, Sub 2, Sub 3
Surround Left, Right, Sub 1, Sub 2 Sub 2, Surround Center or Sub 5, Side Left,
Right
Surround Left, Right, Sub 2, Sub 3 Front Center, Surround Left, Right, Sub 2
Front Center, Sub 1, Sub 2, Sub 3 Front Center, Side Left, Right, Sub 2
Front Center, Sub 1, Surround Left, Right
Front Left, Right, Surround Left, Right
Surround Left, Right, Side Left, Right
Front Left, Right, Center, Sub 1
Sub 1, Sub 2, Sub 3, Surround Center or Sub 5
Surround Left, Right, Center or Sub 5, Sub 1
Surround Left, Right, Center or Sub 5, Sub 2
Front Center, Surround Center or Sub 5, Surround Left, Right
Front Center, Surround Center or Sub 5, Side Left, Right
Sub 2 , Sub 3, Sub 4, Surround Center or Sub 5
Each output channel has a balanced (XLR) output connector only.
D/A Conversion: 24-bit Ladder (8x oversampling – 4x @96K). Two DACs per channel (8 per board) for true
differential operation.
Volume Control: Theta proprietary switched resistor network in the analog domain.
Digital Filter: 8x digital interpolation followed by 64x delta-sigma modulator
Single-Ended Output: None
Sample Rates Supported: 32KHz, 44.1 KHz, 48 KHz, 88.1 KHz, 96 KHz, 176 KHz, 192 KHz.
Balanced Output Specifications:
Output Impedance: 50 Ohms.
Maximum Output Level: 20 Vrms balanced.
Frequency Response: 20 Hz-20 kHz, ± 0.025 dB, Ref. 1KHz.
THD+Noise: Less than 0.0015% @ 1KHz, maximum output level.
Dynamic Range: 105dB minimum, 20KHz bandwidth, Ref. 1KHZ, A-weighted.
Signal to Noise Ratio: 105dB typical, idle channel, A-weighted.
Crosstalk: > 110dB channel to channel @ 20KHz.
PREMIUM

____________________________________________________________ ____

Can anyone tell by the above how close the premium dacs would compare to the Superior II's? I would think it would be considerably more than the Superior II's to the Xtremes since the Premium dacs are a delta sigma version. There's also a sheet I believe in the back of the latest CB manual (on Theta's web site) that shows the premium dacs NOT going through any DSP processing chip like the Superior II and Xtreme dacs do.

I guess I'm wondering strongly why Theta doesn't have at least one review done with the CBIII configured with Premium dacs. I know they want a reviewer to have the top level Xtremes but the performance of the premium dacs could push more folks into buying a lower priced CBIII with premium dacs as compared to another surround processor......just a thought.

I'm confused. The spec sheet you post does not seem to match with the info I recall. For example, on the press release the dacs are listed as having both XLR and RCA outputs. XLR only on the entry level dacs seems odd. What I like is that the volume control is the switch resister network like on the Superior II and Xtreme dac. That a big deal because it means that you are not just using a cheap op amp like many are doing. The original entry level dac, the Standard used an op-amp. The digital filter is not like the ones in the Superior II and Xtreme card and as you state not using Motorola DSP chip. Thanks for posting this.

I had a 2 channel digital out card installed when I bought it so it's an easy hook up. :D

Yes, that's how it's done with the digital out card. When the HDMI stuff becomes available, I do not believe that you will be able to output that data unprotected. That's been a question of mine. How can you utilize the Gen VIII with the new formats when there does not seem to be a "legal" way to connect it with HDMI inputed signals? Theta would seem to need to add HDMI to the Gen VIII. That's not likely to happen.

I'm confused. The spec sheet you post does not seem to match with the info I recall. For example, on the press release the dacs are listed as having both XLR and RCA outputs. XLR only on the entry level dacs seems odd. What I like is that the volume control is the switch resister network like on the Superior II and Xtreme dac. That a big deal because it means that you are not just using a cheap op amp like many are doing. The original entry level dac, the Standard used an op-amp. Also, if the dac used is a ladder dac, then it is not a delta-sigma dac like in the Standard Balanced card. The digital filter is not like the ones in the Superior II and Xtreme card and as you state not using Motorola DSP chip. Thanks for posting this.

Anyway I can forward Carl's e-mail to anyone interested (send me a PM) since it is a PDF attachment specifically for the Premium dacs.

I agree with you 110% as far as it not making sense with only having XLR on the premium dacs but this is what was told by both Carl via e-mail and Naomi at Theta Digital when I called. Due to the premium and Xtreme cards having less room, theta decided to go with XLR connections only even on the Premium card. They said it was the best way to go as far as SQ. This is a big concern to me since I'm not currently using XLR connections even though my 2 channel amp for L & R allows it. Anyway I was also told by Carl and Naomi that Theta sells a XLR to RCA connector for $75 so someone could still use their single ended cables with either card. Carl said he thought there wouldn't be any sound quality loss with the connections even though I rarely experience this when adding something else to the signal path. The Superior II dacs allow both XLR and RCA since it is a 3 card with more room.

I do agree with all your other points. This is why I've been so interested in the sound quality of the premium dacs since the specs seem to show a much higher level than the standard dacs especially with the volume control being kept in the analog domain as you pointed out. Theta probably figured this higher level is required for the lossless formats etc. and needing to have all three dac cards compatible for their future HDMI upgrade. Not having the DSP processing or the digital filtering being the same as the higher dac cards seems to be the biggest minus for the premium dacs.

Thanks a bunch for the link!

I think I'm in the Twilight Zone. I just read a post from Bulldogger with a link showing a simple explanation between 3 different dac designs. One was delta sigma, second was a ladder design and can't remember the 3rd. Anyway I don't see the post any longer??? Where did it go???

Theta probably figured this higher level is required for the lossless formats etc. and needing to have all three dac cards compatible for their future HDMI upgrade. Not having the DSP processing or the digital filtering being the same as the higher dac cards seems to be the biggest minus for the premium dacs.
At 1500.00 a card, the Premium dacs do indeed seem promising. The specs are greatly improved over the Standard cards and and the same time offering a higher build quality than much of the competition by not using op-amps for volume control. Here's one of my favorite designer's on the subject, Charles Hansen of Ayre,"Virtually every surround sound processor uses a volume control chip made by Crystal (Cirrus) or Burr-Brown. This is about the only way to control 6 or 8 or 10 channels and keep everything synchronized without spending a zillion dollars.

The problem is that these things suck. They are the worst sounding volume controls on the planet. A $2 pot on a $200 integrated amp sounds much better than one of these chips. And if you are looking at high-end preamps, you will see that much of the innovation has been concerned with finding volume controls that outperform $2 pots. So SSP's are literally at the bottom of the barrel in this department. And of course, all of the signals have to go through the volume control...

About the only SSP that I know of that doesn't use these crummy sounding chips is the Theta Casablanca. Instead they use a system of FET switches and metal-film resistors (similar to what we use in the Ayre K-5xe and what Levinson uses in the No.32 and No.326). There are only two problems with the Casablanca -- the price is north of $10,000 (depending on the options), and the setup is quite difficult. However, your dealer should do the setup for you. Once it is setup, it's fairly straightforward to use."

At 1500.00 a card, the Premium dacs do indeed seem promising. The specs are greatly improved over the Standard cards and and the same time offering a higher build quality than much of the competition by not using op-amps for volume control. Here's one of my favorite designer's on the subject, Charles Hansen of Ayre,"Virtually every surround sound processor uses a volume control chip made by Crystal (Cirrus) or Burr-Brown. This is about the only way to control 6 or 8 or 10 channels and keep everything synchronized without spending a zillion dollars.

The problem is that these things suck. They are the worst sounding volume controls on the planet. A $2 pot on a $200 integrated amp sounds much better than one of these chips. And if you are looking at high-end preamps, you will see that much of the innovation has been concerned with finding volume controls that outperform $2 pots. So SSP's are literally at the bottom of the barrel in this department. And of course, all of the signals have to go through the volume control...

About the only SSP that I know of that doesn't use these crummy sounding chips is the Theta Casablanca. Instead they use a system of FET switches and metal-film resistors (similar to what we use in the Ayre K-5xe and what Levinson uses in the No.32 and No.326). There are only two problems with the Casablanca -- the price is north of $10,000 (depending on the options), and the setup is quite difficult. However, your dealer should do the setup for you. Once it is setup, it's fairly straightforward to use."


Good feedback to know, thanks!

Yes, the Casablanca isn't cheap as you put it. Maybe this is why my mind is trying to rationalize that the Premium dacs as being good enough.......decisions, decisions. For $1,000, I still think the Superior II is the best compromise even though this is a 3 channel card which means I wouldn't have the better dacs on my sub. This all gets so complicated unless $ is a non-issue.

You sure are right about the CBIII being extremely complicated. I thought that when I first bought my CBI but the CBIII is a completely different animal. I stopped into my local Theta dealer this past weekend and he spent over an hour just showing me the different menus. I'm in a technical field and felt my head hurt after he showed me everything. There was no way I could keep it straight. Even so, it was a very valuable thing to do since I couldn't believe the amount of benefit to the CBIII even if I just went to that without a dac change. Yes, that would be crazy and a shame since I'm the origianl owner and could get a 15% discount on the dacs while upgrading to the CBIII. Anyway the bass management, better analog preamp (at least according to my dealer and Steve on this forum as being a significant improvement), being able to save the various settings and getting Circle Surround, Prologic IIx, DTS, DD, Neo, etc. seems pretty significant. My CBI is a pretty stripped down version with only having DD, Prologic and two Matrix surround modes......no DTS etc. To tell you the truth, I'm more excited about having the latest surround modes for lossy than thinking about HDMI and lossless. I guess I'm in a good place right now with being easy to please especially with lossless being so new.

Robert, I admire your patience 'upgrading' to a sound format with your CB that has been unofficially retired. I'd be a wealthy guy if I had such self control. However, all I see is digital (HDMI) transmission of lossless. Now that I have it, I cannot go back to lossy. It hurts my ears...

Robert, I can attest that mere mortals can set up a CBIII if your at all technical. Also, don't know if it was mentioned or not but at last I knew the CBI to CBIII upgrade was $3K assuming you stay with the illegible green display.

As to GenVIIIs, take a look at this. Does anyone know this guy? Check out the number of GenVIIIs he has in his system [you'll have to scroll down to the end of the article to find it].

http://blog.audiovideointeriors.com/208great/

As to GenVIIIs, take a look at this. Does anyone know this guy? Check out the number of GenVIIIs he has in his system [you'll have to scroll down to the end of the article to find it].

http://blog.audiovideointeriors.com/208great/

In past months this theater has been making the rounds on the web and at a # of threads here at AVS. Interesting.

Robert, I admire your patience 'upgrading' to a sound format with your CB that has been unofficially retired. I'd be a wealthy guy if I had such self control. However, all I see is digital (HDMI) transmission of lossless. Now that I have it, I cannot go back to lossy. It hurts my ears...


Yes, I decided to back off the upgrades for a number of years and just pop in a DVD to enjoy with my family. It's incredible that I use my CB as much as I do. Even though I have patience it seems that I still look to upgrade as others on this forum do. I hear lossless definitely sounds better but guess I'm a little surprised about your "It hurts my ears......." comment. It must hurt to sell, give away or burn all your SD DVD's with lossy but I feel it is another little way of stabbing at Theta for not having HDMI. I spent some time the other day reading through another thread where you and Steve where going at it like pit bulls. Good grief, it was pretty ugly. Maybe you two should get together and give each other a big hug and toast that you both have very good systems.

Cheers!!!

Robert, I can attest that mere mortals can set up a CBIII if your at all technical. Also, don't know if it was mentioned or not but at last I knew the CBI to CBIII upgrade was $3K assuming you stay with the illegible green display.


Yes, I know.......my post was definitely exaggerating about my head hurting even though the set up is incredibly more involved on the CBIII as compared to my CBI. There is someone else though (maybe on this very thread) that also admitted how difficult the CBIII was to set up. Anyway I am technically oriented and not worried about figuring it out. I'll just may need to stop and read some of the manual first since like most guys I prefer jumping in while throwing the directions off to the side. Yes, I have been told it will cost $3k to upgrade my CBI to a CBIII. The green display never bothered me much I guess. I have everything in my rack turned off since I really hate anything lit up. Once set up, it's pretty easy to adjust volume accordingly without needing to see the display.

I spent some time the other day reading through another thread where you and Steve where going at it like pit bulls. Good grief, it was pretty ugly. Maybe you two should get together and give each other a big hug and toast that you both have very good systems.

Cheers!!!

What you don't get is Jeff and I like to go at it but in real life we likely would have no problem. You can't take this stuff all that seriously. But Phoenix and Michigan are a long way.

What you don't get is Jeff and I like to go at it but in real life we likely would have no problem. You can't take this stuff all that seriously. But Phoenix and Michigan are a long way.


Fair enough........the thread was pretty ugly with others jumping in but maybe it is all harmless fun.

TheBland did say that lossy made his ears hurt so I guess this is the sound from the Halcro??? hehehe

Agreed. It's fun stuff this banter. There's never any ill intent...... I mean we're talking toys....

Agreed. It's fun stuff this banter. There's never any ill intent...... I mean we're talking toys....

Jeff is harder on Theta cause he likes scrappin' with me.

But if you read between the lines we have a fair amount of agreement on stuff. HA!

Ya gotta remember he's a dentist and he likes to pull your teeth!

Me, I'm an attorney so I like to argue.

News Flash! Steve Bruzonsky and thebland agree to pursue a new policy of...
http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/04/0426_dow/image/4_richard-nixon.jpg

...HDMI Detente :D It also seemed to me like Alimental played a sort of Kissinger role in the now closed Steve vs Jeff thread!! :)

News Flash! Steve Bruzonsky and thebland agree to pursue a new policy of...
http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/04/0426_dow/image/4_richard-nixon.jpg

...HDMI Detente :D It also seemed to me like Alimental played a sort of Kissinger role in the now closed Steve vs Jeff thread!! :)

Actually I sent Jeff a Monica Lewinsky blow a like and he's in so much ecstacy that he's being nice to me!

Jeff is harder on Theta cause he likes scrappin' with me.

But if you read between the lines we have a fair amount of agreement on stuff. HA!

Ya gotta remember he's a dentist and he likes to pull your teeth!

Me, I'm an attorney so I like to argue.

Aw c'mon now. Don't go gettin soapy on us now! It's un-American for you two to start kssin n makin up. I just will not have it:D

Jeff and I had so much fun getting at each other in that thread that now its time for real D'Etante!! If you don't like it too bad!

It also seemed to me like Alimental played a sort of Kissinger role in the now closed Steve vs Jeff thread!! :)

My diplomacy is legendary! :D

I'll throw in my $.02 as I've been messing with my 2 channel (going analog) on Agon versus messing with my Video system.

Theta Gen VIII is still current technology and it is truely amazing for 2 channel redbook. I use it direct connected to my Theta Citadel 1's (I would love to do the 1.5 upgrade) and it is truelly amazing... Volume control is done in the analog domain, plus I have 5 inputs including RCA and XLR analog inputs that aren't processed by the DAC's. I have found the preamp fuctionality to be equal to VTL 6.5 and better than a ARC Ref 3 (lacked bass in my system) Both were auditioned with the same cables in my system.

My Dealer has a Gen VIII connected to his CB3 with VTL S800's powering Wilson X2.2's and 2channel is just stunning from the Compli (which I use also). Circle Surround is really cool for 2channel recordings.. not like all the crap surround settings everyone else has, easily beats Dolby II, and my Meridian's surround modes.

I am looking at upgrading a Casablanca 1 to a CB3 also, due to an upgrade mistake selling my EAD Signature and going to a Meridian 568.2 (not musical in the least). This is a seperate system which I am considering connecting to my main 2 channel in the front of the room....

Here are some of the upgrades differences going from a CB1 that I thought were really important.
Jitter Jail was added in the CB2 Jitter Jail, digitally stores audio samples in a buffer, then clocks them to the DACs using a high-quality crystal oscillator section.
Analog Direct was improved considerably
Capable of 5 subwoofers (left/right/center/left surround/right surround).
Two options for a two-subwoofer setup: left/right or front/rear

Sorry to jump around but I have some other comments about your Naim CDX, my friend uses a CDX2 with an XPS powersupply and yes it is a really excellent CD player, but since you have an older CDX, the Theta Extreme DAC and the Jitter Jail would probably elevate your HD-DVD player to considerably better than your CDX and it's Interconnects you could sell to recoup some of your money. I know the CDX2 doesn't have a digital out, but I can't speak for the CDX.
The Analog inputs on the NAD (just like all the current receivers) gear is junk, and would definitely be a step down from your CB1 with your Naim CDX player.

:p One question to "thebland", How can you even enjoy your Halcro running those QSC switching amps???? ... PS love your Servodrive/Crown sub solution though..

I looked at the Integra DTC 9.8 solution but all the threads of popping and audio delays with digital through the HDMI doesn't bode well, plus the twisting of arms to get Onkyo and Integra units upgraded with new HDMI chips and firmware that isn't user upgradeable or even public... I am eager to hear how Steve does with the Integra as I was scared away from it completely by the threads on this site.

HDMI was just another copy protection technology that was flawed and implemented even poorer.. just like bluetooth...

I looked at the Integra DTC 9.8 solution but all the threads of popping and audio delays with digital through the HDMI doesn't bode well, plus the twisting of arms to get Onkyo and Integra units upgraded with new HDMI chips and firmware that isn't user upgradeable or even public... I am eager to hear how Steve does with the Integra as I was scared away from it completely by the threads on this site.



I have a separate thread going at thie forum re Theta CB3 and Quest for Lossless Sound which discusses more recently my actual use of the Integra. For HDMI audio purposes from HD DVD and Blu Ray, HDMI to Integra, then multi-channel analog out (I use single-ended) to Six Shooter, I have NO ISSUES at all. Yea, if you fast forward on a disc, etc., sound is muted up to a few seconds. But I can live with that.

And this is why I say that even if Theta does an outboard HDMI box solution, that there should be a CB3 internal card that does the new high resolution sonic processing AND the CB3 display should tell you what audio format is being decoded. Just like the inexpensive Integra.
It would be nicde if Theta also licensed and threw in Odyssey, too. (I discuss that a bit in that thread, too. )

hmmmmm.......Audyssey in a CBIV. I like it. I'll like it even better though if Audyssey could work out something better with their licensing rules.

My Dealer has a Gen VIII connected to his CB3 with VTL S800's powering Wilson X2.2's and 2channel is just stunning from the Compli (which I use also). Circle Surround is really cool for 2channel recordings.. not like all the crap surround settings everyone else has, easily beats Dolby II, and my Meridian's surround modes.

I'm definitley going to spring for a Gen VIII as soon as I find the right deal. Even with all the stuff Theta is going through these days, it still looks like a winning proposition when combined with the Casablanca.

I'll throw in my $.02 as I've been messing with my 2 channel (going analog) on Agon versus messing with my Video system.

Theta Gen VIII is still current technology and it is truely amazing for 2 channel redbook. I use it direct connected to my Theta Citadel 1's (I would love to do the 1.5 upgrade) and it is truelly amazing... Volume control is done in the analog domain, plus I have 5 inputs including RCA and XLR analog inputs that aren't processed by the DAC's. I have found the preamp fuctionality to be equal to VTL 6.5 and better than a ARC Ref 3 (lacked bass in my system) Both were auditioned with the same cables in my system.

My Dealer has a Gen VIII connected to his CB3 with VTL S800's powering Wilson X2.2's and 2channel is just stunning from the Compli (which I use also). Circle Surround is really cool for 2channel recordings.. not like all the crap surround settings everyone else has, easily beats Dolby II, and my Meridian's surround modes.

I am looking at upgrading a Casablanca 1 to a CB3 also, due to an upgrade mistake selling my EAD Signature and going to a Meridian 568.2 (not musical in the least). This is a seperate system which I am considering connecting to my main 2 channel in the front of the room....

Here are some of the upgrades differences going from a CB1 that I thought were really important.
Jitter Jail was added in the CB2 Jitter Jail, digitally stores audio samples in a buffer, then clocks them to the DACs using a high-quality crystal oscillator section.
Analog Direct was improved considerably
Capable of 5 subwoofers (left/right/center/left surround/right surround).
Two options for a two-subwoofer setup: left/right or front/rear

Sorry to jump around but I have some other comments about your Naim CDX, my friend uses a CDX2 with an XPS powersupply and yes it is a really excellent CD player, but since you have an older CDX, the Theta Extreme DAC and the Jitter Jail would probably elevate your HD-DVD player to considerably better than your CDX and it's Interconnects you could sell to recoup some of your money. I know the CDX2 doesn't have a digital out, but I can't speak for the CDX.
The Analog inputs on the NAD (just like all the current receivers) gear is junk, and would definitely be a step down from your CB1 with your Naim CDX player.

:p One question to "thebland", How can you even enjoy your Halcro running those QSC switching amps???? ... PS love your Servodrive/Crown sub solution though..

I looked at the Integra DTC 9.8 solution but all the threads of popping and audio delays with digital through the HDMI doesn't bode well, plus the twisting of arms to get Onkyo and Integra units upgraded with new HDMI chips and firmware that isn't user upgradeable or even public... I am eager to hear how Steve does with the Integra as I was scared away from it completely by the threads on this site.

HDMI was just another copy protection technology that was flawed and implemented even poorer.. just like bluetooth...



Good input......thanks! It looks like you came to some of the same conclusions I did concerning the CBIII upgrade. This is why I felt it was finally time for me to upgrade since everything included was a pretty significant upgrade for $3k minus dacs. Yes, the CDX is a very good CD player but is dated. It doesn't have a digital out. Naim doesn't believe in doing this since it degrades the overall SQ. I felt at the time that it was clearly better than the Superior dacs (not the Superior II's) at the time. I strongly believe there is a lot that a one box CD player can do versus a transport, digital cable and separate dac then again I don't own the Gen VIII or probably never will. Anyway the CDX and other upper end Naim CD players have a continuity about the whole musical presentation compared to many seperate transport / dac units. Music seems to be conveyed more as an entire event.........kind of hard to explain until you hear it. Whether I go with the Superior II's or Xtremes for movies only, I'll have to see if in the CBIII is better musically than my CDX. I'll have to sell the CDX if it is close or better since I don't really listen to music critically any longer even though home theater is definitely a different matter. My familly plays a lot of movies. If I do start listening critically to music again, I kind of like the idea that I can buy a different one box CD player via the CBIII's analog direct route. It's good to hear the jitter jail and analog preamp makes a considerable improvement. With everything the CBIII does for music and movies, it seems hard to consider anything else for an all in one A/V processor.

I'm wondering if the current CBIII is bug free as far as glitches whether with the unit or especially the software. As I've been researching more, it seems the CBIII has had its share of software glitches. I believe they've all been fixed but figured I would ask. Is Theta working on any software updates to resolve anything currently on the CBIII?

I'm wondering if the current CBIII is bug free as far as glitches whether with the unit or especially the software. As I've been researching more, it seems the CBIII has had its share of software glitches. I believe they've all been fixed but figured I would ask. Is Theta working on any software updates to resolve anything currently on the CBIII?


I beta tested Theta's latest stuff for the CB3 last summer and the glitches were most all fixed except for an occasional glitchy need to turn off the CB3 and turn back on. And this is pretty rare and occasional, as opposed to frequent, before. And if I'd use the wide PLL (digital lock) feature for a particular input like DirecTV I probably wouldn't have any glitches, but the normal digital lock sounds a bit better.

And if I'd use the wide PLL (digital lock) feature for a particular input like DirecTV I probably wouldn't have any glitches, but the normal digital lock sounds a bit better.

Exactly my experience but the change is audible enough that it's a blind test I can do all day long and never guess wrong.

What I don't understand is why it never locks up at all anymore, even left in Normal mode. I thought the fix was to place it in Wide but I've never had to.
Ohh well, I'm not complaining!

Is this new software released?

Is this new software released?

I believe new CB3s come with the new card with both normal and wide PLL and software to accomodate.

For existing CB3s, Theta while under Neil Sinclair last summer would offer the new card if the user was having a problem losing digital lock at no charge.

The problem is that new components in particular satellite receivers use crappy chips which likely do not meet standards and this causes the problem that some have.

The software was also specifically designed to cure problems we were having with the new DirecTV Plus HD DVR, which it did.

If you are having a problem, contact Theta tech support and they should take care of you.

The latest software revision has recently been posted to the updated Theta website for download.

http://www.thetadigital.com/downloads-tech.html

The latest software revision has recently been posted to the updated Theta website for download.

http://www.thetadigital.com/downloads-tech.html

If you unzip the files, you will see their dated Nov 2005. They are not the latest firmware. If you are having glitches, contact Theta tech support for the fix including firmware upgrade if necessary.

If you unzip the files, you will see their dated Nov 2005. They are not the latest firmware. If you are having glitches, contact Theta tech support for the fix including firmware upgrade if necessary.

Didn't need to unzip it. It would have nice if I looked more closely at the version number though. It's definitely the older version.
Sorry for any inconvenience. :o

I'm wondering if the current CBIII is bug free as far as glitches whether with the unit or especially the software. As I've been researching more, it seems the CBIII has had its share of software glitches. I believe they've all been fixed but figured I would ask. Is Theta working on any software updates to resolve anything currently on the CBIII?

I certainly had my share when I first got the upgraded CBIII back in Feb or March 07. I was getting audio locks, it seemed, almost every hour. I was getting this same thing in the CBII, though no where near as often, and asked Theta to look at it carefully during the upgrade. When I got the unit back, it was much worse in the CBIII than it was in the CBII. But after a couple of weeks, things slowly started to smooth out. The drop outs were becoming less frequent to where I could actually sit through a whole movie without getting one. After a couple of months the glitches were back to about the same frequency they were with the CBII, which I could easily live with. Still not sure what that was all about but it sure had me nervous there for awhile.

Thanks a bunch for the link!

I think I'm in the Twilight Zone. I just read a post from Bulldogger with a link showing a simple explanation between 3 different dac designs. One was delta sigma, second was a ladder design and can't remember the 3rd. Anyway I don't see the post any longer??? Where did it go???

Sorry about that. http://www.msbtech.com/support/How_DACs_Work.php

:p One question to "thebland", How can you even enjoy your Halcro running those QSC switching amps???? ... PS love your Servodrive/Crown sub solution though..


That's some real Junk, the QSC. Servodrive's pretty cool, however. Last thing in the chain before the amps are the dacs in the 600 buck eq he's using. IMO that's crazy, redigitizing the sound of a 10k/pre-pro and using the digital to analog conversion of a junker like that. There has to be a better way to get equalization and much, much higher end stuff.

At the risk of coming off like a troll and speakin about upgrades, I'm thinking real seriously about doing the GenVIII thing. Haven't pulled the plug yet but I'm close. Pros.....cons?

At the risk of coming off like a troll and speakin about upgrades, I'm thinking real seriously about doing the GenVIII thing. Haven't pulled the plug yet but I'm close. Pros.....cons?

Pros are I don't think you can beat the performance at the price. All of the reviews are stellar. Really it seems comparable to any of the top dacs at any price currently on the market. Cons are you can not be sure that it is going to actually have HDMI until it's done. Also you are betting that Theta will survive. It's too early to tell that. Things are not as bleak as they once were but we are still a ways off from Theta regaining the market/stablity that it once had. My experience is that the techs who repair the stuff don't just vanish.. I have been able to sucessfully have repairs made to all of my "orphaned' electronics. Theta has been making products for a long time. That makes it profitable for a company that specializes in repairs of multiple brands to make a profit supporting the brand if it were ever discontinued. For example, www.approvedaudioservice.com stepped up and took over California Audio Labs repairs when that company went out of biz. That's a worst case scenario and Theta is not close to that point being under the umbrella of ATI. The downside is that you take a financial loss on resale in such an event. However the value of the Gen VIII has not dropped that much. That's a good sign. The bottom line for me is that the Gen VIII would be a long time investment. I'd likely keep it so long that the resale value would drop anyway:) so that's not a factor for me.

At the risk of coming off like a troll and speakin about upgrades, I'm thinking real seriously about doing the GenVIII thing. Haven't pulled the plug yet but I'm close. Pros.....cons?

Me too.......Should be finalizing the order this week. I'll be using a Duet to feed the Gen VIII.

At the risk of coming off like a troll and speakin about upgrades, I'm thinking real seriously about doing the GenVIII thing. Haven't pulled the plug yet but I'm close. Pros.....cons?

I've owned my Gen VIII for 3 years and use it to control my Theta Citadels directly with stunning results, plus It has 5 inputs, so I run 3 digital devices (modified squeezebox 3 (bolder ultimate) and the built in "jitter Jail" made me sell my anti jitter boxes) plus my balanced $7500 phonostage which doesn't get digitized by the Gen VIII. I Choose the Gen VIII over the EMM gear (two box and single box solutions) as I found it much more realistic and didn't sound as over processed (like the DCS gear).

Cytocycle,

What other 2 digital sources do you use and how do you have them connected?

I just hope the new external box Theta is working on integrates the gen 8 with HDMI. Carl at Theta seemed to think it would.

Paul

Thanks guys. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that is thinking this way. I'm really nervous about this one. I've gone over the ups and downs in my head so many times it's making my hair hurt. I just don't see leaving Theta just yet. The products have been great over the years and I've been with them darned near from the start. I'm truthfully not all that hot n bothered about HDMI 1.3.....or HDMI anything for that matter. I figure it'll get here when it gets here. What I am passionate about is 2 channel SQ and it just ain't happenin with my current setup. So I want to concentrate on that before investing another dime in HT. To me, it was a really bad decision early-on to combine 2 channel and HT into one system. But the decisions been made and the only option that allows me a chance to rectify it, given the rest of my system, is to go with a Gen VIII.

Cytocycle,

What other 2 digital sources do you use and how do you have them connected?

Paul

I have my Theta Compli Connected via a Transparent Reference XLR Digital cable on one input and a Modified digital only Squeezebox 3 by Bolder with a Bolder Ultimate Powersupply with Bybees connected via a Transparent Reference RCA Digital Cable. I've also used a Sonos system connected via Coax RCA digital Cable, Home Theater PC, and I've used my Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD just for fun..

I have my Theta Compli Connected via a Transparent Reference XLR Digital cable on one input and a Modified digital only Squeezebox 3 by Bolder with a Bolder Ultimate Powersupply with Bybees connected via a Transparent Reference RCA Digital Cable. I've also used a Sonos system connected via Coax RCA digital Cable, Home Theater PC, and I've used my Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD just for fun..

Just make sure the Bybee isn't on the digital end. AC end is fine. The digital end spec is 75 ohms. But the Bybee brings impedance down to or near 0, out of spec for digital cable.

Just make sure the Bybee isn't on the digital end. AC end is fine. The digital end spec is 75 ohms. But the Bybee brings impedance down to or near 0, out of spec for digital cable.

Steve, thanks for the suggestion (and more importantly the clarification) the Bybee's are in the Bolder Ultimate Powersupply not the SB3.

Steve, thanks for the suggestion (and more importantly the clarification) the Bybee's are in the Bolder Ultimate Powersupply not the SB3.

My experience over the years was that the Bybee's seemed to improve sonics back when I had Bryston 7B amps by modding the AC of the amps;
I am not trying them on my Theta Enterprise mono blocks; and on a Granite Audio 657 tube CD player, Don Hoglund of Granite Audio tried a Bybee AC mod and there was no sonic change at all (heck of a good power supply).
I had a similar experience with some speaker cables and interconnects that I was using, that Bybee seemed to improve sonics, but once I went to Granite Audio stuff we found that the Bybees degraded the sonics.

I also had a modded Sony SACD player with some Bybees both AC and signal path - frankly, I really couldn't tell a difference before and after. That was some years ago.

As my system has evolved over the years, the Bybees are now all sold and gone. And I have become more skeptical of tweaks.

so are you still using the tubed CD player? Any sonic differences between it and your BD/ HD DVD players

so are you still using the tubed CD player? Any sonic differences between it and your BD/ HD DVD players

Not for years. The tube CD player sounded appreciably better than the old CB2 Superior DACs. But the upgrade to Extreme DACs initially equalled the tube CD player analog out sonically. And with the CB3 upgrade including software upgrade to Extreme DACs the improvement went further forward.

Hey Guys

I just posted some nice release info on the Gen VIII thread ! Its about 10-14 days away.

It's going to be great and when integrated into the CBIII for $400 for the Digiout card. It makes the CBIII I still think the best sounding pre pro on the market.

I know it does not do all the new modes, but Dolby Dig and DTS sound so freaking good, I am not sure I need the new modes yet :)

Go Theta !

I can't believe how hot the Gen VIII is becoming. It's funny with digital streaming , a device at this level becomes a hot commodity and I think the CBIII combo is totally smoking.

Thanks
CRaig
Theatermax.com

All this bashing of Casablanca III....

Just had some audio/video comparisons of this unit to the Integra DTC-9.8.

BAT VK-600 for the Fronts/ Bi-Wired
Parasound HCA-2003A for Center and Rears
Front Speakers Essence Topaz
Center Aerial Acoustics CC3B
Rears Aerial Acoustics SR3

For Audio there is no comparison, the Integra does not belong in the class of Audio for Imaging, Soundstage, Depth etc.
For Video even with the HD Audio the Integra is capable with BluRay and HD DVDs we had on hand. The Theta CBIII again was the clear winner.
We had these reviews done without the reviewers knowing which Pre/Pro was running this test. We had them bring some of their favorite DVD's and Audio CD's for this fun event of comparisons as they were all amazed that the "OLD" Casablanca Technology was "much" better than the Integra DTC-9.8.

Next??

For Video even with the HD Audio the Integra is capable with BluRay and HD DVDs we had on hand. The Theta CBIII again was the clear winner.

This is the second comment in two days about "video" capability in a CBIII (the other comment is in the CBIII HDMI 1.3 thread, and extols the superiority of the unit's video performance.

Last I checked, the extent of any "video" function in the CBIII was a VGA switch - which is fine if audio is a primary concern. Claiming the CBIII to have "state of the art video" (as stated in the HDMI thread) is blatant fanboism.

This is the second comment in two days about "video" capability in a CBIII (the other comment is in the CBIII HDMI 1.3 thread, and extols the superiority of the unit's video performance.

Last I checked, the extent of any "video" function in the CBIII was a VGA switch - which is fine if audio is a primary concern. Claiming the CBIII to have "state of the art video" (as stated in the HDMI thread) is blatant fanboism.
Axatax, if you re-read JGV's post again, I think you will note that he was referring to the SQ on Video source material, not Video quality per se. We don't put the Video Card in any of our Casablanca's. We instead rely on a Video Processor to handle that task. Regards, Norm

Axatax, if you re-read JGV's post again, I think you will note that he was referring to the SQ on Video source material, not Video quality per se. We don't put the Video Card in any of our Casablanca's. We instead rely on a Video Processor to handle that task. Regards, Norm

Norm, thanks and yes, that is why I did not list what the Video Equipment I have on this day of comparing the two Pre/Pros for the SQ differences.

I did forget to list which sub I have, Aerial Acoustics SW12 for "Video only."