2 'VERY' talented techs who I work along side with ( I am not one of them ) :( will modify an RS1 which belong to one of them. The plan is to redo the light path to fit a Konica- Minolta lens assembly to the projector. Estimated time for design and mechanical changes will be 4 to 6 weeks. A non operational 'Sharp 12000' will donate the lens assembly.

Who is interested? If enough members are interested in this then the results will be posted onto the general forum with measurments-screenshots-( I know this is not acceptable to all as an accurate way to show the results but it is the best that can be done ).

How it will be done? Well lets just keep the stress of it to the people who have to do it. Not an easy or simple thing to accomplish.

The lens makes a 'HUGE' difference in the sharpness and CA side effects which we have all come to know and love.:mad:

Everyone may not agree with this but it will not hurt to see what could have been or may be in the future.

What do you think?

Some here feel that the convergence issues are 'ghosting' from the lousy lens assemblies.

We will see.

Surgery? :eek: Is ValhallaPC (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=881010) one of the techs? God only knows I wouldn't want toilet paper wrapping up the wiring inside my RS1.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1746/full003jq3.jpg

Bad knee? Replace it with an artificial one.;)

frank456
It would be great fun to learn the outcome of this endeavour.
I sure it takes alot of skill not to lose more than what is gained.
In how high regard do you hold the replacing lens? Is just better than the lens used by JVC or is it really top class. If not top class how far from top class is the lens say compared with the lens in Marantz 11s2?

Mattias it is the exact lens assembly which the 11S2 uses.

ValhallaPC :eek: I clicked on the link and was in shock for a few minutes.:D

When you say lens assembly do you mean that the custom lenses on the Marantz projectors are the same ones that are used on the Sharps .. or just the dual iris mechanism is the same?

That is interesting that the "assemblies" are the same.

Marantz only now with there new 1080p models has the exact 'tube' assemblies ( lens and iris mechanicals ) which has mirrored the sharp 12000 iris system ( also the new 20000 ). Sharp always had the best multistep iris design. Tom Huffman always noted this as well. Marantz really stepped up to the plate with the amazing 11S2. Hand selected parts on the marantz put it at a level above.

In parts manuals the lens casing itself has the same part #'s. The iris design sheets show identical layouts.

I'd be curious to see the end result. But as another said, I suspect it is going to be challenging to get the pros to fully outweigh the potential problems...

Jason, I sent you a couple of PMs but I guess you havent gotten to them yet. Congratulations on your new little girl!

I hope wife and kids are all tucked in safely and problem-free at home. 8)

I personaly loved the time with the RS2 and thought it really looked splendid. It is 100% true that there will be offsets from the end product. From a curiosity perspective it looks exciting.

OK, so the assemblies do include the mechanicals for the lens/dual iris .. but are you saying that the glass itself of the same type/grade/quality? I know the 11S2s are hand-selected/matched but are you saying that the Marantz' glass and the Sharp's glass are identical otherwise?

I love that they are using the same assemblies, though. The dual-iris implementation on the Sharps definitely has had the Sharp 20k putting out some pretty nice CR and the findings from Greg's review put some doubt in my mind as to whether they were the same, or a lesser implementation of it.

I am curious to see what the properly implemented dual-iris can do for the RS1's CR numbers, as much as what the glass can do for the picture.

It would be nice if manufacturers advertised the specs of the lenses they contract for. After all these are thousands of dollar objects.

Imagine if camera manufacturers didn't present specs and just let people speculate about the potential benefits...

as far as the project, I love it when people destroy stuff for the entertainment of others :)

Any marantz glass components looked at were flawless. Hand selected pays off and is worth every penny. 0 CA issues. In the sharp units less than 5% had any CA issues.

Tryg: Look how many space ships blew up before man finally got to the moon. Someone has to sacrafice there projectors for the benefit of mankinds quest for the ultimate picture.

The lens makes a 'HUGE' difference in the sharpness and CA side effects which we have all come to know and love.:mad:


How do you plan on demonstrating the expected improvement - before and after screen shots?

Count me as another that is interested in this project-

No 'before' pictures but screen shots ( I know they will look somewhat different on everyones computer screens ) from a regular RS1 will be compared to the modified unit.

The best scenario would be for the finished unit to be sent to a reviewer who is popular on the forum.

Frank,

Sounds like an interesting project.

Couple of questions.....

How would this effect lens shift?

Would the in lens iris in the Sharp still be available?

Shawn

Very interesting; this could finally end the debate about how important the optics are.

Given the noted unit-to-unit variations, I hope you'll compare the two RS1's before starting surgery.

Mattias it is the exact lens assembly which the 11S2 uses.

ValhallaPC :eek: I clicked on the link and was in shock for a few minutes.:D

I've often wondered if the Marantz and Sharp shared components. Given their similar layout and the similar market timing of their initial release (Sharp 9k and VP12-S1).

Is it possible Sharp manufactures much of the internals for Marantz or vice versa? Given your profession I'm sure you can tell if they share more than the lens.

Before the Marantz fans jump all over me, I'm not suggesting the Marantz is simply a rebadged Sharp.

To a certain extent all of the DLP machines are going to be similar. DLP chips are akin to intel processors and DLP projectors are kind of like PC based computers.

Dan and I were talking about optics when I first got my 11S2 and he shared with me the history of HT DLP front projection. I was under the impression from talking to him that the konica-minolta optics that are used by Marantz were designed for/by Marantz in conjunction with konica-minolta and are unique to Marantz projectors only.

There are substantial differences between the Sharps and Minoltas, however, which, aside from the lenses, should show that these certainly are not rebadged units. Marantz apparently helped Gennum develop the VXP processing, whereas Sharp uses a proprietary one, their color wheels are different, and even their chassis and performance/outputs are different.

On top of that people who have viewed their most similar projectors, the 15S1 and Sharp 20k, have expressed that aside from measuring differently both provided noticeably different looking images.

I'd like to see the difference as well. This should be interesting. If the results are good, would this mod be purchaseable for those willing to risk their pj's?

Totally interested! Please post the results!!!!

Dan and I were talking about optics when I first got my 11S2 and he shared with me the history of HT DLP front projection. I was under the impression from talking to him that the konica-minolta optics that are used by Marantz were designed for/by Marantz in conjunction with konica-minolta and are unique to Marantz projectors only.

I was told that Konica/Minolta had an existing design and the Marantz lenses are based off that. It appears that not only are they based off it, they are the same thing.

That is fine because they are obviously quite good. The Sharps and Marantzs are both great brands, who cares if they share the lens?

I do. 8)

I dont know who told you "that" about the Konica/Minolta lens, but the Dan that I referred to above is Dan Miller of Marantz.

It could very well be that not only do they now possibly share the same design, but they even share the same pieces of glass, but thats not what I understand from my conversation with Dan.

Dont the RS1 and the SIM2 projectors both use Fujinon lenses? Does that mean that they are using the same pieces of glass for their projectors?

I won't name drop but it was a source inside Marantz.

The way it was described to me was that Konica had already developed a lens for digital cinema for use in dlps machines before Marantz ever approached them.

Marantz chose to use that design for econony of scale purposes. It makes sense that Sharp would have done the same thing and used the same lens because it was a good existing design and would have been cheaper to use.

It is cheaper to use an existing design than to create one from scratch just for you.

SIM2 and JVC both use fujinon lenses. I doubt that they are the same, but who knows?

Frank seems like he knows what he is talking about when he says that Marantz and Sharp use the same lens, but what do I know?

I think you'll find that the lens was not designed and made exclusively for Marantz PJs, its far too expensive to do that.You would literally be adding decimal places to the price if it were. I think mlang46 will give you an insight into that and has explained this very well previously. Its an off the shelf lens. That doesnt detract from its quality.

I believe they are graded though, and that costs. As an example , a single graded DMD adds around $450 to the chip cost. Thats $450 on top of the chip cost.

Dan was also the guy who, when I mentioned Marantz bogus claim to be "worlds first" DC4, said " yes, but we will be first to ship". He had no reply when I told him that many of us had already been using DC4 machines for 2 months.:D All in good fun. Marketing guys can frequently be "mistaken", as I myself found out, to my embarrassment, when I took an information shortcut recently.

I actually have a 11s2 to test atm and will be posting soon. I've got the basic figures down and blind checked them with AVS to ensure they are typical. They are.

Why not do it to an RS2 instead?

Also be really nice to know if JVC will be showing the functional equivalent of an RS2 with a high quality lens at Cedia. If they are, any plans to sell this as a mod would make little economic sense.

My hats off to those trying to do it. To get it right is going to be a bitch.

I heard similarly about cinema grade pieces of glass but its my understanding that Marantz approached them to design/make some specifically for Marantz home theater projectors. Maybe Dan can address if there are differences, or if they are the same.

I dont mean for you to have to reveal your sources but what Dan told me wasnt shared with me in any kind of confidence. I had just received my 11S2 and I was sharing with him how clean from CA both projectors looked.

For all I know they may have been unique to marantz HT projectors at the time, but others are using it now.

I agree that Frank seems to know what he talks about in regard to these projector parts but I still dont believe he has stated with 100% certainty that the pieces of glass are the same. "Lens assemblies and mechanisms" is different from the "pieces of glass" themselves.

Are the pieces of glass on the 11S1 and 11S2 different, or is it just the mechanisms/assemblies of the 11S2/15S1 and 11S1 that are different?

If I happen to send my 11S2 in for repair to a facility that happens to also repair Sharp projectors .. will they use the same random parts (pieces of glass and all) if they needed to replace the optics of my projector?

The same lenses are used by several manufacturers. That said the "same" lens can have different stop settings (iris settings) preset at the lens factory for one manufacturer than another. This would explain different light transmission efficiencies and on/off CR values.

I guess there is just no telling, CM. 8)

The same lenses are used by several manufacturers. That said the "same" lens can have different stop settings (iris settings) preset at the lens factory for one manufacturer than another. This would explain different light transdmission efficiencies and on/off CR values.

This machine should benefit well on the long throw if done well. I believe that option is $3k extra at $18k

For example, the L series of lenses sold with the Sim2 HT5000 are used by other manufacturers as well but there are internal fixed stops that can be set at the time of lens manufacturer as the projector manufacturer specifies.

Are you saying then, with certainty, that the lens on the Sharp and Marantz dual-iris PJs are the same, Mark?

I have no idea. Really. I am talking in generalities and what I have said is accurate, but I really have no idea about what the two or three machines have on them lens wise. Sorry for any confusion. That's why I gave specifics regarding the Sim2 HT5000. That I know.

Cat: In my personal opinion the 11S2 is a 'superior' projector than the sharp 20000 which I own. I have only had the fortune of watching 1 movie with the 11S2 throwing onto a stewart studiotek from a BDPS-1 and it looked fabulous. Even better than what I remember seeing on my own sharp which I always regard as a phenominal piece.

Due to variances between different RS1's it would be a good idea to compare the 2 projectors before hand.

Sfogg: To simplify an already time consuming project the lens shift mechanisms will be a no go. The 'tube' assembly which contains the lens and iris mechanisms 'will' be intact. I am dying to see what the iris does to the already 'amazing' contrast performance the JVC puts out without one. I could not even imagine that substantial improvement would go unnoticed. Note: Because no software changes are possible to control the iris operation like a production projector would have the 'iris' stops will be 'manual'. Not a negative at all as instead of a few pre programed settings as a production unit would have the 'guinea pig' would have unlimited adjustability.

No question about it that different manufacturers use different stops on the iris settings.

From a cost perspective....Free.:D From a curiosity perspective...Priceless information.

What do you think?I would love to hear how this turns out.

Do you know what they plan to do with the iris inside the lens from the Sharp? It probably isn't ideal size or shape for the JVCs. If they can open up the lens itself they could make their own iris, but it is some work.

When I modified the irises in an Optoma H79 at least a couple of years ago I would have the lens elements after the one with the iris all out of the lens and then use a small white piece of paper on the end of a fork to see what the light looked like at that point for both video white and video black, so I could figure out how best to make the iris there. Setting things up to the zoom and lens-shift as it will be used can allow customizing an iris that works best for those positions.

If they don't want to open the lens up then at least we could learn some good stuff about sharpness.

--Darin

The initial plan is to just get the 'guinea pig' to work and then go from there. I am told it will not be a problem but it is time consuming to do it correctly. There will be 'something' made to manually open and close the iris. I totally agree that the iris will not be 'ideal' for the JVC for various reasons but could be a continuation of the project after the first part is finished.

If DLP iris' are catseye shaped like the used to be, it's possible that it would be not just nonideal, but detrimental.

If big enough not to block a lot of light, it simply won't do much, or if small enough to improve CR, would reduce brightness so much as to make it a bad trade.

Its a fools errand You do not know if the lens has been modified for the back focus including the optical elements between the last element and the chip. you do not know what the difference is in the MTF of the RS1 lens and the Minolta lens. You do not know if the sharpness difference you see is because of the MTF of the LCOS chip vs the MTF of the DLP chip. If you are going to replace a lens replace it with a lens used on a 3 chip. you may be lucky an it may have close to the same back focal length

"fools rush in where wiseman fear to tread"

2 'VERY' talented techs who I work along side with ( I am not one of them ) :( will modify an RS1 which belong to one of them. The plan is to redo the light path to fit a Konica- Minolta lens assembly to the projector. Estimated time for design and mechanical changes will be 4 to 6 weeks. A non operational 'Sharp 12000' will donate the lens assembly.

Would it be possible to find an operational Sharp 12K to donate the lens? I think it would be just as interesting to do the 'other' swap - put the JVC-Fujinon lens on the Sharp and see what happens.

mlang46: I am simply an observer on this one. What you are saying is nothing which the guys do not already know. Trust me on this.;)

All specifications and design schematics for 'every' part for 'every' projector is available. If not then a phone call takes care of it to the people who designed the projectors in the first place. A significant advantage?

Ilsiu: The 12000 fell off a truck or seems to have by the way it looks.

"It fell of the back of a track"? Sounds like a Soprano's episode.

mlang46: I am simply an observer on this one. What you are saying is nothing which the guys do not already know. Trust me on this.;)

All specifications and design schematics for 'every' part for 'every' projector is available. If not then a phone call takes care of it to the people who designed the projectors in the first place. A significant advantage?

Ilsiu: The 12000 fell of a truck or seems to have by the way it looks.

So what are the MTF numbers for the JVC Fujinon lens and the Minolta lens and what are the respective numbers for the lateral chromatic aberration for each lens. Also! what is the actual as opposed to geometric MTF for the LCOS chip.

I wish them luck. I was a basement bomber in my foolish youth I would like to redesign the filters so that the primaries are at the 709 rec. and add a 4th panel to increase contrast and put an improved version of the Wire grid polarizers and replace the light source with a xenon lamp.

Changing the filters might be the easiest thing to do.

Frank, did you see MikeTweakers thread on improving the RS1? He added an iris and now suspects that maybe the RS2 is an RS1 with an added iris in the optical path, plus vertical stretch of course.

mlang46: Please see last post.:)

Cat: I would love to see that thread. Now you have me thinking about how JVC doubled the CR value overnight.

Mlang46. I hope a bunch of us can get together with you at Cedia. I think we could learn a lot.maybe a little dinner party at The Kitchen in down town Boulder?

It does partly give us the answer of how potentially that dual iris could effect the RS1's CR.

"Frank, did you see MikeTweakers thread on improving the RS1?"

I missed that; may we please have a link?

It was just a few threads up

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1003532

Mlang46. I hope a bunch of us can get together with you at Cedia. i thinkwe could learn a lot.maybe a liyyle dinner party at The Kitchen in down town Boulder?

That would be fun.

Great. There are a bunch of manufacturers in Boulder too that attendees can visit. Ayre, PS Audio, Boulder Amps, a few others too. I would suggest the night before the show starts. PM if interested guys. Plant visits in the afternoon maybe and dinner at night. Perhaps we can get a room at one of the plants so Mlang could teach us a little about optics yada yada. Boulder is only a short drive from downtown Denver. The Kitchen is a green restaurant, hell Boulder is a green town. The food at the Kitchen is great

Nice. Tweeters got guts.:D