Will a 9" CRT really scan high enough to do 1080p 72? A calculator I found on the web says a 225 MHz scanning rate is required. I really don't know enough about it, and I've read many times here that a 9" can resolve 1080P. So I'm looking for some input on the perceived disparity between stated scanning rates and the required one.

I'm in the same boat as many current CRT owners (NEC XG 110 LC) pondering an upgrade of some kind right now since we have one format for HD DVDs.

Many are using 1080p@72 on their 9 inch and some on their 8 inch machines. It all depends on how soft you dont mind the image. If you use only 1920x800p for scope movies 72 hz refresh rate works great. and the image is sharp. Its with 1080p 16x9 movies where it will get soft if you use the full 1920x1080p@72. Not sure if you are using a HTPC or A VP but if you try "Active area scaning" ( only letting the crt scan and show the image and not the black bars above and below the movie) you will free up bandwidth and be able to use higher scan rates.

this thread explains it well:

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737385

Athanasios

225Mhz isn't the scanning rate. It's the BANDWIDTH required to pass 1080p/72.

But why use 1080p? For film content, 1080i looks every bit as good*. My projector (Zenith 1200, aka Barco Cine 8 Onyx) resolves 1080p perfectly fine, but I still choose to do 1080i because, well, I know better. :)

Kal

* For the difference between 1080i and 1080p for 24 fps film content, use the search feature. There are subtle differences, but explaining them takes 14 paragraphs which I don't want to get into here as they get discussed about once a week.

225Mhz isn't the scanning rate. It's the BANDWIDTH required to pass 1080p/72.

But why use 1080p? For film content, 1080i looks every bit as good*. My projector (Zenith 1200, aka Barco Cine 8 Onyx) resolves 1080p perfectly fine, but I still choose to do 1080i because, well, I know better. :)

Kal

* For the difference between 1080i and 1080p for 24 fps film content, use the search feature. There are subtle differences, but explaining them takes 14 paragraphs which I don't want to get into here as they get discussed about once a week.

I agree I was hung up on 1080p for a long time but I am not real fond of the interlaced field so now I run 1920X800p@72 HZ its much sharper then full 1080p, then use PowerDVD to fill the screen. Most 2:40 movies only have an effective pixel height of 800 anyway.

Mike

225Mhz isn't the scanning rate. It's the BANDWIDTH required to pass 1080p/72.


Thanks for all the replies! Please explain to me how to determine the PJ specs required to display 1080P. 1080P is over 2x 720P.

I read the cropping thread. I'm uncertain how to do that with an HTPC. However, what I would like to do eventually, is to pop in a Blu-ray disc, either by HTPC or a standalone box and show all the resolution through a PJ. What I mean by that is a simple case. Not all kinds of convolutions in between.

My projector (Zenith 1200, aka Barco Cine 8 Onyx) resolves 1080p perfectly fine, but I still choose to do 1080i because, well, I know better. :)


Nope, that's not going to happen on that or any other model similar to that. In fact, none of the stock CRT projectors properly resolves 1920x1080P 60hz. So forget about 1920x1080P 72hz. that's not even possible with the great Barco 909 or Cine9.

I have here in my shop, 2 G90's, 3 Barco 909's and host of other make and models of CRT projectors. And I also have the know how and equipment to put them all though the proper test to confirm that they're not able to "properly" resolve that rate.

1920x1080P is very similar to 1920x1080I, but the Interlaced version has the lines. And by the lines not being a part of the movie or source, it is a distortion.



Many are using 1080p@72 on their 9 inch and some on their 8 inch machines. It all depends on how soft you dont mind the image. If you use only 1920x800p for scope movies 72 hz refresh rate works great. and the image is sharp. Its with 1080p 16x9 movies where it will get soft if you use the full 1920x1080p@72. Not sure if you are using a HTPC or A VP but if you try "Active area scaning" ( only letting the crt scan and show the image and not the black bars above and below the movie) you will free up bandwidth and be able to use higher scan rates.

Athanasios

It has been confirmed a many times that it's very possible to get 1920x1080P @ 72hz on an 8" CRT projector. And it has been confirmed that it can be done with a razor sharp image.

1920x1080P when properly resolved can produce a much better image than the interlaced version of 1920x1080. When 1080P is being properly resolved, the image is more fluid looking, and has the appearance of having more depth and also being more dimensional. We call it the "looking through a glass" effect.

True and native 1920x1080P is awesome..;)

On that 1080P sharpness thing being soft @ 72hz. What say we look at 1920x1080P @ 75hz on an 8" CRT projector:

:D

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8822/img0118rj2.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4840/img0116uq3.jpg

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9184/img0114qi4.jpg

It has been confirmed a many times that it's very possible to get 1920x1080P @ 72hz on an 8" CRT projector. And it has been confirmed that it can be done with a razor sharp image.

1920x1080P when properly resolved can produce a much better image than the interlaced version of 1920x1080. When 1080P is being properly resolved, the image is more fluid looking, and has the appearance of having more depth and also being more dimensional. We call it the "looking through a glass" effect.

True and native 1920x1080P is awesome..

Mike of course i didnt mean soft if i was including your awesome mods! But i was just reffering to non modded sets. What you have done and are doing is shear Genius!!

Athanasios

Thanks, MP.

So how can it be done? The scaler trick is one way? Are there others and how much do they cost?

I have been looking into scalers, and it seems none do 1080p72. How do we get 1080p72 with HD DVD and Blu Ray?

I have been looking into scalers, and it seems none do 1080p72. How do we get 1080p72 with HD DVD and Blu Ray?

I use an HTPC.

Mike

I have been looking into scalers, and it seems none do 1080p72. How do we get 1080p72 with HD DVD and Blu Ray?

I'm not sure If you'll be able to get 1080P 72hz from any known scaler. I know there's been discussions on some of the scaler manufacturers looking into making that happen. Or being able to raise the pixel clock of the processors, where 1080P could become possible.

But for now, we can live with 1080P 60hz. The more advanced and better processors do much better with 60hz than some of the previous versions and models.

1920x1080P is a very challenging rate for CRT. Most or all of the top end CRT projectors we know of were designed way back and almost 10 years ago. 1080P was never on the table. Nor were there generators designed that could handle that rate (pixel clock) at the time.

Having true and native 1080P sources today, regardless if 60hz or 72hz is a big plus for the absolute best image from CRT.

And no.. 1080I is NOT the same as native 1080P. Taking a native 1080P source and adding interlaced lines to it is not the same as being able to fully resolve a true and native 1080P rate.

There is just so much more to being able to see that native rate in action on a fully capable CRT projector.

I have a Barco 909, Sony G90 and my lowly 8500. They all like native 1080P, and they all are specially equipted to make the best of it.

Sometime this month, I'll attempt to do a basic setup on a very Special G90 and post some screenshots. I'll be needing a Moome card for the G90, because I do something a little different with the cards for this application. So when I get all these things in place, it will be something to see for sure.

I use an HTPC.

Mike

Mike,

Not to hijack this thread, but how do you like using your HTPC for Blu Ray and HDDVD? What kind of specs does the pc need? I have a pc that I have used with dvd's for a couple of years. If I could use that, I might look into the combo blu/hddvd drive. What kind of video card do you need though? thanks.

Mike,

Not to hijack this thread, but how do you like using your HTPC for Blu Ray and HDDVD? What kind of specs does the pc need? I have a pc that I have used with dvd's for a couple of years. If I could use that, I might look into the combo blu/hddvd drive. What kind of video card do you need though? thanks.

First off I should clarify myself. The HTPC will run 1080p@72Hz (71.928) and I did indeed run it on my NEC XG 1351 for short time but I found with my projector the image was too soft. Right now I’m running 1920X800p@72Hz. Still pushing the bandwidth but not to the as bad as with 1080p, it seems like a nice compromise. A 2:40 AR movie only has effective pixel of 800 so, I use PDVD to stretch the image to fill the screen.
It’s a fairly ballsy machine but it could be done with less.

Asus Maximus Formula Motherboard
4 Gb Ram
LG HD-DVD/Blu-ray Combo drive
Intel Q6600 quad core 2.4Ghz CPU
ATI HD3850 Video w/512MB ram connected analog (RGBHV)
Windows Vista Ultimate
Powerstrip for custom resolutions and timings

Mike

Note the key word by MP "stock" crt, modding the video chain can make it happen.

Sounds to me like it's going to be cost prohibitive to do CRT for 1080P.

Sounds to me like it's going to be cost prohibitive to do CRT for 1080P.

Is this the same Crescent who has given up twice on 9"LC's in the past. If so, you've had a projector that would do what you're asking and dumped it.

Chip

I don't know what you're talking about. The only CRT projector I've ever had was an XG 110 LC. I've had it 4 years. According to MP, 1080P is not do-able on a stock projector, 9" included.

Sounds to me like it's going to be cost prohibitive to do CRT for 1080P.

I would not get hung up on 1080p unless you simply want a new digital projector. Lower resolutions will look very good and in most case look better then a digital with the exception perhaps of a $6K RS2 and with that the primary colors are not accurate.

Mike

A fellow member of the forum has a Mitsu HC6000 and he invited me over to see it. Once you see that detail, you can't go back. When I went back to my XG, I noticed how soft DVDs are. 720P still looks good, but 1080p is 2x the resolution! I would prefer to have the blacks, also. (and of course, judder free, but now I'm asking for everything.)

I don't know what you're talking about. .... . According to MP, 1080P is not do-able on a stock projector, 9" included.

Yes you can...Marquee 8500 with slight upgrades done by myself. Slightly modded old crapy Vim that Mike P says isnt worth modding, but I used it for practice, and think it looks pretty good , cant wait to do this to the good Vim. Still want to try a few more things but its not hard to do and it even looked good with the stock 2035-03p Vim Sure its not 100% fully resolved with the stock 2035-03p Vim but it is film like and no scan lines, now after i did my mods i see scan lines and i need to sit in my second row of my theater. So yes you can do 1080p but it has to be your own decision if you like what your seeing...having said that here you go 1080p@48 now i kow its not 72 but i cant get that to my projector no HTPC or source to get it there via hdmi(only connection I have)

http://homepage.mac.com/nashou.66/.Pictures/5thE3.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/nashou.66/.Pictures/Shoot%20em'%20Up4.jpg

Casino Royal:

http://homepage.mac.com/nashou.66/.Pictures/Bond%20nmVim4.jpg

Pan's Labrynth

http://homepage.mac.com/nashou.66/.Pictures/Pan's%20Labrynth9.jpg


Not 72 hz but still not bad for an 8500 not modded with Mikes great Mods.

Athanasios

Thanks! I appreciate the input.

However, these shots look soft compared to the HC6000. Also, "slightly modded" is not stock.

Please don't get me wrong. I've been a CRT fan for all these years. I love the blacks. But if the bandwidth isn't there, it's not there.

Screen shots cant show whats really on the screen, if you want sharpness go digital if you want detail then crt, Loosing shadow detail takes a lot out of the image, Sharpness alone to me is not what i call film like. you have to try it and see for yourself like we said before. And since you have had crt you know what we are talking about so just try 1080p and you will get your answer.

Athanasios

Thanks! I appreciate the input.

However, these shots look soft compared to the HC6000. Also, "slightly modded" is not stock.

Please don't get me wrong. I've been a CRT fan for all these years. I love the blacks. But if the bandwidth isn't there, it's not there.

Don't confuse sharpness with pixel structure. Here is quote from a review I saw on the HC6000.

On the HC6000, you must sit at a distance of 1.1 times the screen width for the pixel structure to become invisible. In other words, if you have a 120" diagonal 16:9 screen, it will be 105" wide. On a screen of this size, pixel structure in white lettered titles in the HC6000's image disappears at a viewing distance 1.1 x 105", or 115" (about 9.6 feet).

I like sitting closer to the screen then recommended, especially on a 2:40 AR film, this would be a killer for me.


Mike

Is this doing 1080P?????

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/1.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/2.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/3.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/4.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/5.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/6.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/7.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/8.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/9.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/10.jpg

Is this doing 1080P?????

I was waiting for you to help out my cause cliffy!!!!!!

Now i have to go home from work and fire up that movie !!! god it kicks @ss!!!!!!

Athanasios

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/11.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/12.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/13.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/14.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/15.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/16.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/17.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/18.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/19.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/20.jpg

I was waiting for you to help out my cause cliffy!!!!!!

Now i have to go home from work and fire up that movie !!! god it kicks @ss!!!!!!

Athanasios

:D God I love CRT.

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/21.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/22.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/23.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/24.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/25.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/26.jpg

Cliffy

Well, now. Some of those look damn good! What's it cost?

Yours: 9inch stack G90
http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/23.jpg

Mine: 8inch Marquee8500

http://homepage.mac.com/nashou.66/.Pictures/Shoot%20em'%20Up4.jpg

Once i get my stack aligned i'll get closer to your light output in that pic.

Athanasios

But for now, we can live with 1080P 60hz.

I've been living with it for over a year now and I love it. You've been here, you've seen it. :D

I am extremely intrigued though with what you have done so far. Extremely intrigued.

Dude, those machines that leave your shop will be some of the MOST DESIRED projectors on the planet. Period.

Nuff said.......

Cliffy

Yours: 9inch stack G90
http://www.seriouspc.com/shootemup/23.jpg

Mine: 8inch Marquee8500

http://homepage.mac.com/nashou.66/.Pictures/Shoot%20em'%20Up4.jpg

now looking back at these, mine doesnt look that bad or that soft!!:D


Athanasios

I guess I really should not be trying to not talk XG owners going digital...I need another cheap XG or two so I can start playing around with my econoblend. :)


Mike

I've been living with it for over a year now and I love it. You've been here, you've seen it. :D

I am extremely intrigued though with what you have done so far. Extremely intrigued.

Dude, those machines that leave your shop will be some of the MOST DESIRED projectors on the planet. Period.

Nuff said.......

Cliffy

I've been somewhat busy over the past month, but I'm still on track to make wonders happen here with these G90's and Barco 909's. I must say I'm excited and looking for that day when this all happens.

I now have all parts on hand to finish things up. So next week we'll back at the soldering iron to wrap up one of the G90's.

We're firing up the heat, and from there we'll be cooking up some stuff next next..;)

Stay tuned!

OK. While some of those screen shots look awesome, they still may not be 1080p. It's hard to tell without a direct compare or a measuring tool. It's also cheating of a sort to show closeups, because they are more detailed obviously than long shots.

So we've established that these older CRT projectors do not have the bandwidth natively to do 1080p, even 9"ers. So what are the MP mods and what do they cost? Is it going to be 10k or more to get a modded G90 to do 1080p? What can I get for the XG, a grand? That's a 9k outlay.

I want to believe CRT is still viable. And perhaps 720P is good enough on a 90" screen, I don't know. But it appears to me that the cheapest path to 1080p might be a vw40 or vw60 instead of investing in old technology to handle modern bandwidth.

In all the digital vs. CRT discusiions, I've always been on the side of CRT. Now, I'm not sure....

I mentioned earlier in this thread about the depth and dimensional image quality that can only come from true and native 1080P performance.

Last night I took several shots from Kong in hopes of showing what it looks like. It's hard to capture this with a camera, but we'll have to see how well it plays out here.

My lowly 8500 was down because I was planning to remove it from the ceiling to replace my test unit. I now have a test unit, so the 8500 is back in action. The colors and a few other things are still off. And that's because I had to do something to the neck boards.

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/2971/img5055ah4.jpg

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5767/img5056qq5.jpg

OK. While some of those screen shots look awesome, they still may not be 1080p. It's hard to tell without a direct compare or a measuring tool. It's also cheating of a sort to show closeups, because they are more detailed obviously than long shots.

So we've established that these older CRT projectors do not have the bandwidth natively to do 1080p, even 9"ers. So what are the MP mods and what do they cost? Is it going to be 10k or more to get a modded G90 to do 1080p? What can I get for the XG, a grand? That's a 9k outlay.

I want to believe CRT is still viable. And perhaps 720P is good enough on a 90" screen, I don't know. But it appears to me that the cheapest path to 1080p might be a vw40 or vw60 instead of investing in old technology to handle modern bandwidth.

In all the digital vs. CRT discusiions, I've always been on the side of CRT. Now, I'm not sure....

CRT still is a very viable 1080p option, you have to see one set up running 1080p to really apreciate it. What is your location I am sure if there is someone near you they would love for you to see it. Especially if your near Mike Parker. His is probably the best set up 8500 on the planet once he does the proper color set up, which is hard probably for him to do since he's always tinkering with it trying new mods here and there! :D ;)

Athanasios

I've been somewhat busy over the past month, but I'm still on track to make wonders happen here with these G90's and Barco 909's. I must say I'm excited and looking for that day when this all happens.

I now have all parts on hand to finish things up. So next week we'll back at the soldering iron to wrap up one of the G90's.

We're firing up the heat, and from there we'll be cooking up some stuff next next..;)

Stay tuned!

SCREENSHOTS PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

:D:D:D:D

Sorry, but I'm really looking foward to your results. :)

Gonna be sweet........ :cool:

Cliffy

I am in CT. But I've asked many times what it costs with no answer. So I assumed the cost was prohibitive.

We are not allowed to talk costs on this forum but i'll break the rules . I bet you can find a decent 9500 between 4500-6000. And mikes mods not sure what the costs are but id say close to 2 g's for the whole set not sure what he is charging these days you have to talk to TIM at e-tech http://www.etechvideo.com/home.htm, he handles all mikes mods from now on. there are other options for marquee mods as well Greg Eeisman as well http://www.eisemann-theater.com/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=74&op=page&SubMenu=. Both have had good reviews from people although Mikes are more well known and has a larger following here on AVS. so i say for about 7 thou you can have a top notch way better than digital crt set up and if you go with an 8 inch marquee with mikes mods take another 3 thou off that. Mikes 8 inch does 1080p@72 hz superbly .

Athanasios

Thank you. I'll ponder this information.

Cliffy, what camera are you using for those screenshots?

Here's a screen shot from a modded G-90. The mod was simple. Strip everything out of the case and replace it with the gut's from a AmPro 4600HD:D

Cliffy, what camera are you using for those screenshots?

It's a kodak easy share 5.1mp. :)

Here's a screen shot from a modded G-90. The mod was simple. Strip everything out of the case and replace it with the gut's from a AmPro 4600HD:D

Stefuel, I wanted an Ampro when I first started looking for CRT's. They do have a great Picture.

Athanasios