This was over at dvdtown.com
http://www.dvdtown.com/news/toshiba-ceo-talks-about-life-after-hd-dvd/5299

Wall Street Journal (WSJ) recently talked with Toshiba CEO Atsutoshi Nishida about life after HD DVD.

Mr. Nishida (CEO): Toshiba will continue to produce standard DVD players. They believe they can still make a difference. "What people don't realize is that Hollywood studios are going to release new titles not just for Blu-ray but for standard DVDs as well, and there are a far greater number of current-generation DVD players out there. If you watch standard DVDs on our players, the images are of very high quality because they include an "upconverting" feature. And we're going to improve this even more, so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images. The players would be much cheaper than Blu-ray players too. Next-generation DVD players are in a much weaker position than when standard DVD players were first introduced." Nishida said.

As a follow up, a poster wrote: The upconversion Nishida's talking about is "Super Upconversion" or Real-Time Super Resolution technique that has been used in astronomy and by intelligence services for decades. CELL's computational power allows real-time super resolution processing of SD video to increase its native resolution to 960p, by fusing 9 frames front and back.

The Super Resolution(aka Super Upconversion) output is truely 960p, and journalists who have seen the demo at trade shows like CEDEC and CES vouched that it really worked. Previously, Super Upconversion was scheduled to appear on Sharp and Toshiba HDTV sets only, but the death of HD-DVD changed all that it is now confirmed that Super Upconversion will come to DVD players as well.

gimmee sum dat spursengine cell processor, yowser babe!:eek:
bring it on!

A few points:

0. The usefulness of the techique is highly dependent on the quality of the source. You really need an excellent DVD to get the best possible results. DVD's that show artifacts from MPEG2, mastering problems etc., are going to not do so well. The SuperBit DVD's apparently work the best from what I am told.
1. Toshiba will not hold a monopoly on this technique. Indeed, the PS3 has the Cell chip!
2. The same technique can be used with 1080P source to upgrade to 2160P. This requires more compute power but works in the same way. We are already starting to see 2160P monitors.

I have seen demonstrations of this and, frankly, real 1080P looks better. More detailed, less somehow stressed. Some of the upconversions I have seen give me the "uncanny hollow" feeling.

IMHO, if it was as good as they are now claiming it is, they wouldn't have wasted time with HD DVD in the first place.

(I say it is wasted time based on Toshiba's POV)

Also, raise your hand if you currently own a DVD player with a cell processor ;)

A few points:

0. The usefulness of the techique is highly dependent on the quality of the source. You really need an excellent DVD to get the best possible results. DVD's that show artifacts from MPEG2, mastering problems etc., are going to not do so well. The SuperBit DVD's apparently work the best from what I am told.
1. Toshiba will not hold a monopoly on this technique. Indeed, the PS3 has the Cell chip!
2. The same technique can be used with 1080P source to upgrade to 2160P. This requires more compute power but works in the same way. We are already starting to see 2160P monitors.

0. Same goes for HDM too. There are still some HD catalogue titles which aren't looking good at all (high grain, noise, badly colour filtered).

1. Just because the PS3 had a Cell chip doesn't mean SONY will also integrate the Super-Up-Conversion that easily.

2. Very much more computing power. You're better of with SW scaler sharpening instead.

0. Same goes for HDM too. There are still some HD catalogue titles which aren't looking good at all (high grain, noise, badly colour filtered).



This is true.

My point is that the utility of upconversion is that it works on your existing library, and your library may also be the limitation.

Of the 500 DVD's I have, about 50-100 really look good on my current upscaling equipment. The rest look very mediocre, and often upscaling seems to make them become pasty and muddled. This is especially true of earlier DVD releases. For an even more exaggerated look, try feeding sd DirecTV into a great scaler. Really awful.

Of course, one can buy one of the fancy new special editions, but then one might as well go all of the way and buy Blu-ray.

Example: I just watched Friedken's Sorcerer two days ago, one of my favorite films. [Makes No Country for Old Men look cheery.] Alas, nothing will ever help that DVD.

His statement that they would develop a technique that would make DVDs indistinguishable from HD DVD was extremely odd.

Either he doesn't think very highly of the PQ of HD DVD, or they have developed a revolutionary new upscaler. If the latter is the case, that same technique/algorithm *must* work with any data, and therefore could be used to upscale Blu-ray disks to some amazing new level of detail, thereby making them superior to an upscaled DVD version.

It's also funny that Toshiba would fight so hard to make HD DVD successful, but now according to them there isn't really a market for it. Are they trying to say all that money they spent was a waste? I don't get it.

Hopefully, these things will provide legacy HD DVD playback capability.

Please tell me I didn't just read that. Upconversion as good as HD DVD PQ?

Please tell me I didn't just read that. Upconversion as good as HD DVD PQ?
worth a chuckle it was.

the ps3 cell processor, isnt that the one made by..............toshiba?

About the "Upscaling Blu-Ray" thing. I've done something similiar. I've a nice,little HD version of Madagascar on my PC which I upscaled using a algorithm similiar to Super-Up-Conversion.

I may post screenshots in some minutes if everyone want's to see the difference.

There is already a discussion on this from this morning here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1002847

About the "Upscaling Blu-Ray" thing. I've done something similiar. I've a nice,little HD version of Madagascar on my PC which I upscaled using a algorithm similiar to Super-Up-Conversion.

I may post screenshots in some minutes if everyone want's to see the difference.

Cartoons are particulary susceptible to these techniques.

In many cases of extant DVD's the quality that you have to begin with is a limitation. A few specific examples that will never look good I suspect:

1. The first DVD of Star Wars: The Phantom Menace. Filled with EE.
2. The frist DVD of South Pacific: non-anamorphic, color issues, artifacts.
3. The first DVD of Somewhere in Time: mosquito noise.
4. The first DVD of Mary Poppins: a veritable catalog of compression artifacts.

Cartoons are particulary susceptible to these techniques.

In many cases of extant DVD's the quality that you have to begin with is a limitation. A few specific examples that will never look good I suspect:

1. The first DVD of Star Wars: The Phantom Menace. Filled with EE.
2. The frist DVD of South Pacific: non-anamorphic, color issues, artifacts.
3. The first DVD of Somewhere in Time: mosquito noise.
4. The first DVD of Mary Poppins: a veritable catalog of compression artifacts.

I think he should have qualified his statement with some conditions. I assume that at certain TV sizes and viewing distances a super-upconverted DVD could look comparable to HD DVD, but on a whole the statement simply isn't true.

Ok.

Here we are:

720p,Madagascar:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7235/snap1jl1.png


Upscaled and colour filtered:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5035/snap2lq2.png



Sorry for the logos and that I haven't grabbed the very exact frame (had some performance problems).

Up scaled isn't HDM. Why is this in the HDM section?

Ok.

Here we are:

720p,Madagascar:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7235/snap1jl1.png


Upscaled and colour filtered:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5035/snap2lq2.png



Sorry for the logos and that I haven't grabbed the very exact frame (had some performance problems).

Interesting. It seems like the upscaling algorithm works better the more data it has available to it, so a 1080p frame would experience more detail extraction than a 480p frame, comparatively. Bring on the 2160p sets! :D

"Super Upconversion"

'The new HD-DVD II ... Super-duper wiz bang upconverted,upscaled,upsampled,interpolated,sharpened,
debanded,deblocked,deringed,deinterlaced,denoised,grain reduced, EE enhanced DVD picture from the new HD-XA3!!!' ;)

ffdshow in a box?

"Super Upconversion"

'The new HD-DVD II ... Super-duper wiz bang upconverted,upscaled,upsampled,interpolated,sharpened,
debanded,deblocked,deringed,deinterlaced,denoised,grain reduced, EE enhanced DVD picture from the new HD-XA3!!!' ;)

ffdshow in a box?

Lol. Don't forget about the 4Ghz, 6 core CPU you'll need for this to work properly (even the CELL would die on that) :)

Interesting. It seems like the upscaling algorithm works better the more data it has available to it, so a 1080p frame would experience more detail extraction than a 480p frame, comparatively. Bring on the 2160p sets! :D

Actually the more forwarded algorithms like Super-Up-Conversion or mine do use some kind of interpolation to fill out pixel gaps.
Of course 1080p frames won't have to processed that much and will therefore look closer to nature (original filmframe) but it isn't really neccessary.

PS: I can also post some comparison screenshots of Shark Tale (720p) by tommorow.

The first thing I thought when I heard about ""super upconversion" was that if it could make mpeg2 compressed 480p look that good, what will a 1080p source look like using this same process? Time will tell.

Toshiba really needs new leadership.

A few points:

0. The usefulness of the techique is highly dependent on the quality of the source. You really need an excellent DVD to get the best possible results. DVD's that show artifacts from MPEG2, mastering problems etc., are going to not do so well.

This applies to BD/HD DVD as well...:)

"upconverting" feature. And we're going to improve this even more, so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images.

Maybe he was watching the movie Traffic on HD DVD and comparing the DVD upscaled :0

Then again could be why HD DVD failed miserably. I've read more than a few times at AVS from HD DVD fans how DVD's looked almost as good as their HD DVD's. I certainly don't feel the same. Probably a lot people cashed in on the blow out sales at Walmart etc, cheap players with lots freebies then then didn't actually buy many HD DVD's after that.

IMHO, if it was as good as they are now claiming it is, they wouldn't have wasted time with HD DVD in the first place.

(I say it is wasted time based on Toshiba's POV)

Also, raise your hand if you currently own a DVD player with a cell processor ;)

*hand raised* :D

worth a chuckle it was.

the ps3 cell processor, isnt that the one made by..............toshiba?

No. It is made by Toshiba, Sony and IBM. It was co-developed by all 3.

The Look and Sound of Perfect has become The Look at Sound of Mediocrity.

I don't understand why any movie lover wouldn't welcome this technology. Many DVDs will never see a blu-ray release and if this can help them look better on big screens I say bring it on.

I don't understand why any movie lover wouldn't welcome this technology. Many DVDs will never see a blu-ray release and if this can help them look better on big screens I say bring it on.

+1

Toshiba has gone bye bye.

I'm kind of interested in seeing this new upscaling/upconverting technology though. As good as a HD-DVD? Which ones? Traffic and Spartacus? :D

Hopefully, these things will provide legacy HD DVD playback capability.

Not a chance in the world. It would destroy any price advantage over Blu-ray (assuming they wanted to actually make a profit this time around)

Toshiba has gone bye bye.

I'm kind of interested in seeing this new upscaling/upconverting technology though. As good as a HD-DVD? Which ones? Traffic and Spartacus? :D

With upscaling or hi-def, the condition of the master probably is more important than anything else. Garbage in, garbage out.

Toshiba has gone bye bye.

I'm kind of interested in seeing this new upscaling/upconverting technology though. As good as a HD-DVD? Which ones? Traffic and Spartacus? :D

They could make a split screen demo. :D

What will their new DVD slogan be, that is the toughest part. :eek:

Please tell me I didn't just read that. Upconversion as good as HD DVD PQ?

Is the consumption of fermented grape beverages involved?

I personally look at this thread as a sign that this board is loosing it's relevance.

Toshiba is going to sell 1080p HDTVs but not HD media players? Weird.

Toshiba is going to sell 1080p HDTVs but not HD media players? Weird.

I hope to god they don't accept any HD signals and only upconvert or if they do force them to downconvert to 480i then scale them back up, just to prove their upscaling is better than HD :p

Here is an image from wiki (super resolution) which uses the nine frame process:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/Super-resolution_example_closeup.png

No. It is made by Toshiba, Sony and IBM. It was co-developed by all 3.

It is fabbed in a Toshiba fab now. IBM, Toshiba and Sony co-developed it in Austin Texas.

The title of this forum is called:

"HDTV Software Media Discussion" so this Super Upconversion is relevant. It's media and it's for HDTV's ... don't always assume blu-ray is the ONLY game on the planet. I can name 1/2 dozen other high definition content methods now.

Is the consumption of fermented grape beverages involved?

Or sour grapes based on some of the responses?:rolleyes:

Atsutoshi Nishida was quoted saying this:

"If you watch standard DVDs on our players, the images are of very high quality because they include an "upconverting" feature. And we're going to improve this even more, so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images".


Is it possible that he was misquoted?

If he wasn't, he clearly wants to improve on the upscaling capabilities of the dvd player.

Nothing wrong with that.

And if the average consumer can't tell that HD is better over the improved upconverters, it doesn't mean the quality is a good or the same as HD DVD. But that won't matter to most people.

Time will tell if they are able to improve by leaps and bounds over what is out there today.

On the other hand, we HD nuts will continue on in our never ending quest to feed the HD Beast that is part of our life's;) I'll be there!

Here's a link to an article on the Audioholics website (http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/toshiba-cell-broadband-video-processor), concerning Toshiba's demo of Super Upconversion at CES.It's always been said by us that you cannot take standard definition, upconvert it to HD and expect the same results as if you had an actual HD source. With that said, the cell processor technique demoed by Toshiba - in real-time so as to not be mistaken for a parlor trick - came pretty darn close. Detail popped and edges cleared up without the typical artifacts you'd expect. We did notice some jaggy artifacts on some of the material, but overall this is a technology that is extremely promising.

There are some screen shots showing the enhancement over regular DVDs. The improvement looks similar to the pictures Blinx123 and Lee posted.

Did anyone here actually get to see the demo? While it might be hard to argue that the super upconverted pictures are HD, it would also be hard to argue that they don't improve the SD picture more than today's upconverting players do.

I would question if the process might introduce additional noise or artifacts in the picture. If not, this would have to be considered a boon for movie lovers, since it will be years and years before all the films available on DVD are put out on Blu-ray.

You have to wonder if Toshiba's motivation for this is the failure of HD players in the marketplace, and if they're correct. Before the war was over, we were told that the magic price point for HD players was $200. Even though Toshiba hit that price, they still weren't able to reach their projected 2 million players.

They may be right. Not for the people here on the AVS forum, where super upconversion will be seen, at best, as a nifty gimmick to tide them over for real HD releases. But for the general public, would an improved, near-HD player, that will improve all their existing and future DVDs, be the "best" solution?

If the technology works as promised, I would guess that the average person viewing a 50" HD set from more than 10 feet away would have a difficult time telling the difference. Not to mention that new DVDs would still play on all the DVD players they already own, meaning they won't have to double dip on titles to insure their library has portability.

Scott

I think my Toshiba A1 just got very jealous of these so-called Super Is-It-HD-Or-Is-It-Toshiba Upconverting players.

The business aspects of this are being downplayed in this discussion. Since I have already expressed my views about the technical limitations, let me enter this realm.

As a major rights-owner in DVD, Toshiba has a huge interest in keeping DVD going as long as possible. [Indeed, it is possible that a stale-mate in the format war would have been an acceptable outcome for them. Note that they didn't drop HD DVD until retail basically threw them out. Apparently they planned to keep going for some months.]

But now, the rest of the retail/CE/studio world has a vested interest in making Blu-ray a success now that it is the chosen next gen format. Toshiba is going to be quite alone making this argument with everyone else pushing for Blu-ray. [After all, does a studio really want a magic box that will make a 10-year-old DVD look brand new, even if it worked?]

The price points for super-upconversion players will start to overlap with the price points for Blu-ray players. One presumes that Toshiba will not be further interested in subsidization in this market. [This is also why Oppo and all of the high-end folks will go to Blu-ray soon. Who will pay $3000 for a Meridien player that doesn't do Blu-ray?]

My own prediction is that Toshiba will have Blu-ray players out this fall. I suspect that the decision has not been made to do this but they are moving forward with machines just in case. They need to ship Blu-ray to protect their HDTV business if nothing else.

The current statements from the president are simply postering to help them empty the warehouses until they make a decision and actually have something to ship. I expect a June announcement.

Toshiba has always been a smart company than Sony as 95% of their business ventures have reaped excellent revenues and profits. Toshiba has announced that they will hire 2000 people to concentrate more on NAND flash memory and semiconductors. I think Toshiba will easily break-even the HD DVD losses than Sony for the PS3.

Well I guess this settles it. Toshiba's CEO is officially retarded.

It is fabbed in a Toshiba fab now. IBM, Toshiba and Sony co-developed it in Austin Texas.

The title of this forum is called:

"HDTV Software Media Discussion" so this Super Upconversion is relevant. It's media and it's for HDTV's ... don't always assume blu-ray is the ONLY game on the planet. I can name 1/2 dozen other high definition content methods now.

Not sure if the last half of your comment was directed at me but when did I say Super Conversion was not relevant?

The price points for super-upconversion players will start to overlap with the price points for Blu-ray players.What are the price points for Super Upconversion players? Have any models even been announced?

Well I guess this settles it. Toshiba's CEO is officially retarded.

really? please read the 2nd line in my signature.

This is the crux of the problem for Sony....people dont want to rebuy movies on BD because the SD ones look good enough and most of your good films have crappy transfers with lots of grain......to the average consumer they expect every HD title to look like the Simpsons movie on Bd and we all know that this isn't going to happen....the BD titles arent bad transfers they are just original transfers with all the grain and directors intent that they are supposed to have....I have a 106inch screen and most times DVD is good enough....the sound is another thing......80% of the HD movies the sound is far superior to DVD.......but who has the sound setup to hear this??

Not a 15 year old kid using his pc monitor to play his PS3 on and thats a fact.

Now with this newer technology, DVD may have a second life or just inundate the market with more mass confusion as to what HD is and what it isn't.....will this new technology have a new sound profile?

The 2 kids and I watched "Generations" (Star Trek) which we got from Wallmart for $7.50 last night.

The wonderful movie looked HD in every way played by the Toshiba XA2.
I'm so glad this one was not released in HD or Blue-Ray. I'd be throwing my money away.

What are the price points for Super Upconversion players? Have any models even been announced?

No prices have been announced to my knowledge. This is my speculation. As quantities of Blu-ray players increase, prices will fall.

This technology has been demo'd and all that have seen it are impressed.

The "chip" will not have to be the Cell Processor as is used by the PS3. It was shown using the Spurs Engine which has half the processors that the Cell has (4 versus 8) so the cost will not be anywheres near as high as the Cell.

My inner-conspiracy guy suspects that this process may be very similar in mathematical concept, if not the part of the same process, that is used in the intriguing "motion-plus" processing that is appearing in numerous 120 Hz lcd panels. Aside from the benefits in smooth motion rendering, there is also the "unreal detail" effect. I think that is same thing we are seeing here in this "super-upsampling" scheme. The technology simply may be extending into the bottomed-out dvd player market (to create new value), rather than remaining a feature tied to top-model displays.

This could be an interesting development in the home video arena (though, this by no means, indicates I would abandon the genuine 1080p format approach). I would imagine the same process applied to genuine 1080p content would enable a similar increase in detail quality. So one "bar" hasn't really caught up with another. Both bars simply moved up, but remain a similar distance apart prior to the technology impact.

If they got this working at affordible prices it would sledgehammer HDM right in the teeth. If the upconversion process yielded a somewhat close result to native 1080 media from ordinary DVD, I believe people would think long and hard about rebuying any films from their existing DVD library in BD or any other HD format.

It's hard enough to get people to upgrade to HDM when compared to vanilla non-upconverted DVD, and if something could possibly bring everyone's existing DVD collection within 10% of true HDM quality...

The question now is can they deliver something that will work as advertised, quickly and at affordible prices.

If they did it would be a huge FU back at the studios who were hoping to milk the market again with HDM re-releases.

I don't see the point.

Hey you can buy this $400 player that will "super convert" your picture to less quality than Blu-ray...

Or, you can just buy a $400 Blu-ray player and Upconvert your DVD's or play a pristine 1080P movie that you'll enjoy more.

What's stopping Sony from developing Blu-ray players that super convert both DVD's and Blu-rays?

No prices have been announced to my knowledge. This is my speculation. As quantities of Blu-ray players increase, prices will fall.

Chicken, egg, chicken, egg.

For quantities to increase, prices have to be reasonable at the start. Else there will never be quantities rising. There is always some economy of scale with prices asymtopting to the bare minimum with ever increasing volume. The scale generally looks logarithmic, so it takes huge quantities to get the much lower prices. The first one is astronomical in build cost. The price could never be astronomical or the first one would never sell. So a price point has to be chosen to get the product moving. It seems even here in an AV looney bin that the prices are not at that tipping point. For the average consumer that tipping point won't be reached until the second or third order of magnitude in sales.

Maybe the head of Toshiba is not so retarded after all. They made a real run at the market and tested the price points all the way down to $99. It was at $99 that interest was generated in much larger groups of people. Maybe that price point is not achievable in the long run for HD players. Who knows. And don't think Toshiba hasn't read the tea leaves on this and other forums where the XA2 is exalted as the definitive upconverter. Where folks say that before they pay many hundreds for a player again they will upconvert with thier HD DVD player.

Put that topology in a regular DVD player and go head to head with OPPO. Perhaps even beat them at thier own game. Toshiba seemed to have the right algorithms for upconversion right from the start.

What's stopping Sony from developing Blu-ray players that super convert both DVD's and Blu-rays?

That is exactly what I would expect to happen (on players of all brands).

really? please read the 2nd line in my signature.

You're supposed to ask me to read it out loud. But hey, you rock it however you like.

The thing is that there is nothing Toshiba can do from stopping other companies from doing something similar. Assuming this "super upconversion" works as advertised, it'll eventually become a standard feature in higher end TVs and set top players.

yeah! ok, what about lossless sound? how will they provide that? upscale that too?

Well looky here, now everything is starting to become very clear. Toshiba realized a long time ago that this HD DVD thing was going to drain them way too much before it would ever become successful so decided why not just improve on our bread and butter and I now believe this has probably been in the planning stages for a long time. This is the answer why they threw HD DVD under the bus so hard and fast and why I always thought that they had quit on this much earlier than many here believed and never put up a good fight because now it seems they had already come to the conclusion that HD DVD wasn't worth fighting for contrary to many of their public statements.

Well looky here, now everything is starting to become very clear. Toshiba realized a long time ago that this HD DVD thing was going to drain them way too much before it would ever become successful so decided why not just improve on our bread and butter and I now believe this has probably been in the planning stages for a long time. This is the answer why they threw HD DVD under the bus so hard and fast and why I always thought that they had quit on this much earlier than many here believed and never put up a good fight because now it seems they had already come to the conclusion that HD DVD wasn't worth fighting for contrary to many of their public statements.

There are only two possibilities here.

1) The CEO really is retarded, as I said earlier (which I seriously doubt)

or

2) This is just corporate spin BS

You can put your money on the latter.

Several people in this thread have already covered the reasons why Toshiba wants DVD to remain viable and wants HDM to fail. It's all spin, people.

If we were in any forum other than the HDM forum, I'd say that we AVSers should be smart enough to know better.

We are witnessing plan "B", finally engaged into action? :o

I hope to god they don't accept any HD signals and only upconvert or if they do force them to downconvert to 480i then scale them back up, just to prove their upscaling is better than HD :p
Can't be any worse than Blu-ray's super-intrusive copy-protection that's ruined HD playback on my HTPC. (If I want good-quality Blu-ray playback with the newer titles I either have to spend $350 on hardware upgrades or buy a standalone player.)

There are only two possibilities here.

1) The CEO really is retarded, as I said earlier (which I seriously doubt)

or

2) This is just corporate spin BS

You can put your money on the latter.

Several people in this thread have already covered the reasons why Toshiba wants DVD to remain viable and wants HDM to fail. It's all spin, people.

If we were in any forum other than the HDM forum, I'd say that we AVSers should be smart enough to know better.

Are you saying the pics posted previously are BS too? Or is Toshiba trying to pull the wool over our eyes one more time. Help explain because I really don't know the answer but you seem to have an inside source.

Here is an image from wiki (super resolution) which uses the nine frame process:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/Super-resolution_example_closeup.png

Oh baby. So with all that processing we can finally make our lousy dvds into the quality seen on such HD titles as Tremors and other waxy efforts. :D

Smoothvision: because we can't let go of our crappy dvds

Would you be any the wiser, if they blended synthetic grain back in, as another postprocessing step? :p

well this has been done for years on security footage.

it is a temporal approach, it work on the theory that different pixels get recorded on each frame. these can then be combined to make a super frame.

same approach is use for astronomy.

but the image has to stay still, or be very slow. the faster the image moves the less over lap there is in the information.

If they got this working at affordible prices it would sledgehammer HDM right in the teeth. If the upconversion process yielded a somewhat close result to native 1080 media from ordinary DVD, I believe people would think long and hard about rebuying any films from their existing DVD library in BD or any other HD format.

It's hard enough to get people to upgrade to HDM when compared to vanilla non-upconverted DVD, and if something could possibly bring everyone's existing DVD collection within 10% of true HDM quality...

The question now is can they deliver something that will work as advertised, quickly and at affordible prices.

If they did it would be a huge FU back at the studios who were hoping to milk the market again with HDM re-releases.

That's a whole lot of "ifs"...

Until this gets to market it's vapor, just like flash based HD media, nothing more.

Not a chance in the world. It would destroy any price advantage over Blu-ray (assuming they wanted to actually make a profit this time around)

Assuming that the tech involved doesn't make HD DVD playback capability more cost effective. What they're proposing sounds like it would require more "horsepower" than current dedicated HD DVD players have.

This just seems like a really bad idea. By the time this comes out assuming later this year, I don't think it will be more than $50-$100 cheaper than Blu-ray which most people would spend the extra money for BD. I think its possible they will actually sell less of these players than they did with there HDDVD players.

I'm under the impression that the studios want to migrate a significant number of consumers from DVD to Blu-ray. They could nip this super-upconversion threat in the bud by double compressing movies for DVD and pressing them onto single layer discs. In fact, I have a funny feeling that the PQ offered on DVD for new releases will start to degrade as Blu-ray adoption takes off.

I'm under the impression that the studios want to migrate a significant number of consumers from DVD to Blu-ray. They could nip this super-upconversion threat in the bud by double compressing movies for DVD and pressing them onto single layer discs. In fact, I have a funny feeling that the PQ offered on DVD for new releases will start to degrade as Blu-ray adoption takes off.
Unless Toshiba comes up with more payments :D

This just seems like a really bad idea. By the time this comes out assuming later this year, I don't think it will be more than $50-$100 cheaper than Blu-ray which most people would spend the extra money for BD. I think its possible they will actually sell less of these players than they did with there HDDVD players.

I would still be interested in one of these since I have a large SD DVD collection of older titles, and probably most of these are years off for BR editions, if ever. Now, if they put the super upconversion feature in a BR player, allowing SD DVD to take advantage of it, that would be a different story.

This is all such total garbage.

If this "Super Conversion" is so high and mighty, why even develop HD-DVD? Why go through all of that when apparently this other format is just as good, and if anything better since it uses the already-standard DVD?

This kind of talk just drives me absolutely nuts. Where was this A-Hole and all his "Super Conversion is best" talk before? Oh wait I remember, they developed a totally different format and tried to push that upon everyone as if THAT was the best. And now it's "Super Conversion."

What's next? This crap is why informed consumers are so frustrated with, I don't know, everything. It's all double-talk.

I believe Toshiba's "Plan B" is viable, at least until we see studios releasing on BD only!

If you think plan "B" is scary, wait till you see plan "C"! :p Ladies and gentleman...I present to you- the 5-a$$ed upscaling dvd player! :D

I believe Toshiba's "Plan B" is viable, at least until we see studios releasing on BD only!

They don't have to go BD exclusive. They can slowly degrade DVD PQ, AQ and extras to the point that anybody who cares will no longer settle for anything but Blu-ray. Studios also have degrees of freedom around release dates and pricing to further encourage the shift to Blu-ray. "Plan B" is one of those brain farts that should never have gotten out.

Oh baby. So with all that processing we can finally make our lousy dvds into the quality seen on such HD titles as Tremors and other waxy efforts. :D

Smoothvision: because we can't let go of our crappy dvds

You guys can be as smarmy as you want about this, but I all comes down to just how picky the buying public is going to be. If they already aren't sure they think they see enough difference between SD upscailed and HD, what do you think a far greater fogging of that line is going to do?

I doubt EE and Lossless are on enough radars to save BD if someone cooks up something that looks just a stones throw away, and doesn't require you re-buy you stuff at premium prices.

They don't have to go BD exclusive. They can slowly degrade DVD PQ, AQ and extras to the point that anybody who cares will no longer settle for anything but Blu-ray. Studios also have degrees of freedom around release dates and pricing to further encourage the shift to Blu-ray. "Plan B" is one of those brain farts that should never have gotten out.

Keep in mind that BD accounts for a whopping 2% of the market, I think studios will have to feel a lot more confident about it to start doing things that dry up DVD revenue, even if it is shrinking.

If this comes out and works well, I will surely buy it, two thirds of my collection is of titles the studios aren't even toying with the idea of releasing to HD. If they do great, in the mean time I want to see what I like at it's best advantage.

They don't have to go BD exclusive. They can slowly degrade DVD PQ, AQ and extras to the point that anybody who cares will no longer settle for anything but Blu-ray. Studios also have degrees of freedom around release dates and pricing to further encourage the shift to Blu-ray. "Plan B" is one of those brain farts that should never have gotten out.

Good point! And it solidifies previous assumptions that ultimately the studios are the major dictators of how we will be viewing movies in the future, and if the recently ended writer's guild strike, or the upcomming sag strike is any indication, profits, not quality is the strongest motivator. Too bad for us.

I for one would want to see a sample of this "super-converted" video (in real time) before either praising or condemning it.

Of course, true HD sources will look better (so long as they were transfered/encoded well) than this type of technology. It's a simple matter of more data in the source = more detail on the screen.

However, for some videos and on some displays, this "super-conversion" technology may provide enough enhancement to satisfy the casual viewer and cause him to think that there is very little reason to re-buy his whole library of DVDs on BD if one of these new players can make him happy enough.

Much of this depends on the display and the eye of the beholder.

For example: Some people rave about the way movies like the BD Spider-man 3 look on the newer 120hz displays. I however look at them and everything either seems unnatural or ghosted due to added motion blur.

I have to give Toshiba credit though for being consistent in their attempts to try to hold BD back and maintain their royalties from DVD.

I don't know if they will succeed, (and since I would honestly like some HD format to catch on, I hope that they don't) but I'll be damned if you can't call them anything but persistent.

one of the hollywood insiders at bluray.com has already stated that they are planning to make dvd obsolete and making bluray the only format -- he said his lips were sealed on this matter and he would not go into further detail

if that comes to pass, toshiba will be forced to make BD players.

This interview is hilarious in so many levels.

Take it from somebody who has written code that does these things. Not only is a high quality input needed, massive computational ability is needed. Unless you understand what we call big O, you have no idea not only what it takes, but how difficult it is to do it at large resolutions (to whoever said 2160).

Furthermore, nobody wants a DVD player that costs 300. I don't care what you say, BD will be in that territory soon enough. And furthermore, who's to say that BD players wont have this ability.

When you start with the best, the best happens. The finest wax can only make a turd look so good.

They don't have to go BD exclusive. They can slowly degrade DVD PQ, AQ and extras to the point that anybody who cares will no longer settle for anything but Blu-ray. Studios also have degrees of freedom around release dates and pricing to further encourage the shift to Blu-ray. "Plan B" is one of those brain farts that should never have gotten out.

Perhaps, but if the studios insist on "watering down" their DVD releases too far they run the risk of losing sales and potentially alienating their customer base.

Just a note, Fox has already done this with their release of the Simpson's movie on DVD.

I had planned on purchasing the DVD until I saw how badly it looked on a rental at a friend's house. What made the degraded quality of the Simpson's DVD especially evident was that we had just finished watching Futurama: Bender's Big Score which looked great on the same 100" screen.

The difference between those two DVDs is shocking. Seriously, if you don't believe me, watch them both back to back.

Based upon the terrible transfer, I changed my mind and passed on the Simpson's Movie DVD.

After the lackluster marketing support for HD DVD, I will never buy and support a Toshiba product ever again.

After the lackluster marketing support for HD DVD, I will never buy and support a Toshiba product ever again.

I'm not sure how Toshibas marketing enters into a product designed to work with possibly the most successful format of all time. I mean it's not like DVD can fail right?

To dismiss this offhand the way so many are, I have to surmise that there is some genuine concern that in fact there may be a something to this.

I'd think you'd all rather see it, or at least read some credible reviews first; or has testing fallen out of favor in a AVSience forum?

After the lackluster marketing support for HD DVD, I will never buy and support a Toshiba product ever again.

I wouldn't go that far personally. Toshiba definitely has their place in the world of quality CEM's.

I wouldn't hesitate on another Toshiba purchase, not even in the slightest. I seriously question their marketing of HD DVD, but it doesn't change the fact that they did bring a quality product to the table.

OK.. So Toshiba will somehow make 345K of native resolution (DVD) look as good as over 2 mega pixel of native resolution? I think that J6P watching their movies on a crappy 20" or even 32" TV from far away may be fooled but some of us with 100" or greater screens will want true HI DEF.

Let me guess... Toshiba's next week announcement, "not only can we convert 345K to look as good as over 2 megapixels, we have now invented a perpetual motion machine".

We can all then just buy 300K digital cameras and throw those pesky 5 or 10 megapixel bricks and we won't have to worry about oil, power, electisity or any other source of energy, because those perpetual motion machines will keep us going and going and going.....

To Toshiba: I'm done with regular DVD. You can do all you want to it, but I've been spoiled by the real deal. I love HD DVD, but I am not going back to DVD now that it is over. I'll be adding a blu ray machine no later than this summer.

Some of you guys don't seem to realise how valuable this technique is.

Many murderers and thieves wouldn't have been catched as the police uses some similiar technique to fill out the gaps of pixel lines and denoise the signal of a bad camera picture.

PS: I'll post Lord Of The Rings (SD) screenshots in some minutes to show you how sharp it can look (warning: some ringing involved as I'm using the theatrical version).


EDIT: He is also wondering if true-HD is really neccesarry to make pictures look good:)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1176/grab06000gm6.png

(original filmed in 3,5k. Downconverted by the studio to fit it to DVD and upscaled to 768p by my algorithm).


BTW: Someone asked about lossless and such. Of course that wouldn't be possible on normal DVD but at least you can "upconvert" the audio signal to get some more clarity.

Some of you guys don't seem to realise how valuable this technique is.

Many murderers and thieves wouldn't have been catched as the police uses some similiar technique to fill out the gaps of pixel lines and denoise the signal of a bad camera picture.

PS: I'll post Lord Of The Rings (SD) screenshots in some minutes to show you how sharp it can look (warning: some ringing involved as I'm using the theatrical version).

As I have seen, being able to make out some details in an image is not the same thing as having a realistic and beautiful picture that one enjoys looking at. Enhanced images often have a very phony look that is quite unpleasant.

Of course it depends greatly on the source material. One can take an UltraResolution transfer, down-rez it to a DVD, and then up-rez it again and get something watchable. But why not just put the UltraResolution transfer on a Blu-ray to begin with?

And if I am replacing a poorly done DVD from the past, why bother buying yet another DVD?

Example: Warners will be putting out "How the West Was Won" on DVD and Blu-ray this summer. I have the first DVD (and also a LD) made from the 1963 35mm version. Given that I am buying a new one anyway, why should I settle for the DVD just so Toshiba can upscale it for me?

As I have seen, being able to make out some details in an image is not the same thing as having a realistic and beautiful picture that one enjoys looking at. Enhanced images often have a very phony look that is quite unpleasant.

Of course it depends greatly on the source material. One can take an UltraResolution transfer, down-rez it to a DVD, and then up-rez it again and get something watchable. But why not just put the UltraResolution transfer on a Blu-ray to begin with?

And if I am replacing a poorly done DVD from the past, why bother buying yet another DVD?

Example: Warners will be putting out "How the West Was Won" on DVD and Blu-ray this summer. I have the first DVD (and also a LD) made from the 1963 35mm version. Given that I am buying a new one anyway, why should I settle for the DVD just so Toshiba can upscale it for me?

I wouldn't do this too. But there are still plenty more than only a dozen movies that won't be released on HDM in the near future.

And BTW: Blu-Ray isn't capable of those Ultra-Resolutions. There is still some dowresizing process involved that the studios have to do.

Example: Warners will be putting out "How the West Was Won" on DVD and Blu-ray this summer. I have the first DVD (and also a LD) made from the 1963 35mm version. Given that I am buying a new one anyway, why should I settle for the DVD just so Toshiba can upscale it for me?

That's fine for How The West Was Won - a big, famous, Cinerama film, ripe for Blu-ray. On the other hand, how about a little oater called The Stranger Wore A Gun with Randolph Scott. When's that going to be on Blu-ray? 2080? Never? Not everything's going to be on Blu-ray for a long, long time. This technology is exciting for things like these types of DVDs.

And BTW: Blu-Ray isn't capable of those Ultra-Resolutions. There is still some dowresizing process involved that the studios have to do.

Of course there is. The benefits of UltraResolution are well understood here. But the downrezzing to Blu-ray is a lot less severe, especially since 1080P is the resolution I intend to watch it at, than going to 480P to squeeze it onto a DVD.

If they got this working at affordible prices it would sledgehammer HDM right in the teeth.Which is based on a lot of speculation since it is a new scaling method that has no release date and no estimated price.


If the upconversion process yielded a somewhat close result to native 1080 media from ordinary DVD,Which isn't possible since Blu-ray will always be capable of 6 times the detail of DVD and there is no way to add detail to an upconverted image. The only thing you can do with upconversion is make the image smoother which comes with its own assortment of artifacts.


If they did it would be a huge FU back at the studios who were hoping to milk the market again with HDM re-releases.Which you didn't have any problem with until Blu-ray won the format war and remember that you once said (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12520979&postcount=31): "It's a fact that HD is superior to SD ~345,600 pixels per SD frame vs. 2,073,600 pixels per HD frame."


If this "Super Conversion" is so high and mighty, why even develop HD-DVD?Because Toshiba wanted to spend over a year and a half in a format war burning hundreds of millions of dollars so they could than turn around and promote DVD upconversion ;).

This just seems like a really bad idea. By the time this comes out assuming later this year, I don't think it will be more than $50-$100 cheaper than Blu-ray which most people would spend the extra money for BD. I think its possible they will actually sell less of these players than they did with there HDDVD players.


Why?

Also, BD discs are almost 2 times the cost of dvd. The reason BD hasn't taken off now is because of price...

Which isn't possible since Blu-ray will always be capable of 6 times the detail of DVD and there is no way to add detail to an upconverted image.


Rich, I totally agree with this but I will add that "Capable" is the key word here and mass adoption means every BD must look like good HD animation or the general public[where BD will make thier money] will not see this so called "6 times the resolution as DVD". I am not sure what Toshibas real motive is because they will make lots of money off the PS3, but this just proves my point that the HD media market will go the way of heavy competiton and be fractured into so many avenues of delivery to your home. And because quality on HD is so inconsistent the masses will be happy with 720p.:)

Is this technique similar to the "Double Scale" That the PS3 uses to produce a 960P image on SD-DVDs?

Will they then scale that to 1080p? Currently, the 960P output on the PS3 leaves an image that is smaller than the screen(so you have black bars everywhere)

"so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images"

Oh, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaally???

So why did they create HD-DVD in the first place then?

It doesn´t matter how much you "Super upconvert" an SD image.
It can´t create detail that isn´t there.

Just because they lost the HD battle, REAL High-Def is no longer needed???
Toshiba, you can suck my ass!! Losers!!

I bet two years from now they´ve released their first BD player, even though "consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD image" with their Super Duper Mega UPCONVERSION players ;)

Which is based on a lot of speculation since it is a new scaling method that has no release date and no estimated price.


Which isn't possible since Blu-ray will always be capable of 6 times the detail of DVD and there is no way to add detail to an upconverted image. The only thing you can do with upconversion is make the image smoother which comes with its own assortment of artifacts.


Which you didn't have any problem with until Blu-ray won the format war and remember that you once said (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12520979&postcount=31): "It's a fact that HD is superior to SD ~345,600 pixels per SD frame vs. 2,073,600 pixels per HD frame."


Because Toshiba wanted to spend over a year and a half in a format war burning hundreds of millions of dollars so they could than turn around and promote DVD upconversion ;).

Not quite true. Like I said earlier you can,using a interpolation technique similar to the one the police and the FBI use since the late 80s, early 90s.


And BTW: @Stevie76

Why so unfriendly? Remember: Toshiba is still there to make money as there is any other CE. Of course HD-DVD is still supperior (especially feature wise) but the "average joe" won't see the difference. The CEO mentionend in the articel also never said something about "HDM not needed" anymore. It's just an option, you don't have to use it. But to say Toshiba are losers just shows that actually you are the one who is the classless loser.

Blinx that screen shot looks pretty darn good to me, I could live with that if this new Toshiba tech gives that type of image.

Blinx that screen shot looks pretty darn good to me, I could live with that if this new Toshiba tech gives that type of image.

Yeah. Just tested it with The Good German DVD and it looks really good. However: There's still some artifacting/ringing that I need to get rid of. Looks like I have to live with only one of the two routines (if I deactivate resizing it will internally scale the image which still looks good due to the routine before.) or at least I need to go with lesser Luma/Chroma sharpening.

EDIT: Problem solved (or at least nearly:) ). The Chroma and Luma sharpening was still set to 2/2. It's now set to 0.6/0.6 and still looks much sharper (but more natural now).

Picture Update: Which one's better now?

Old one with some ringing and artifacting due to too high sharpening:
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5035/snap2lq2.png

New one with lesser sharpening to avoid ringing and artifacting
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8369/snap3lg8.png

Not quite true. Like I said earlier you can,using a interpolation technique similar to the one the police and the FBI use since the late 80s, early 90s.


Assume you are looking at a picture of a face. Fold it in the middle, then fold each edge back again so you are holding what looks like a T. Now, the basic outline of a face will still be there. Now try to write an algorithm that fills in what is missing. Do you think you can get the color of the eyes right? How about the shape of the nose? What if there is a scar above the eyebrow - will you get that right?

The honest answer to all of those things is no. You cannot recreate detail that isn't there. If you knew it was a face, you could approximate features with "average" features, but there is no way you could get an image that represented the actual face as well as if you had the full image of the actual face.

Interpolation is an attempt by a program to "unfold" the paper. Interpolation does not add detail, it just tries to guess at what pixels in between two given pixels might be. Your success at that depends on many factors. Depending on the routine, it can make images "soft" by color blending pixels where there should be a hard cut or "hard" by putting in hard cuts where there should be soft blends. You can sometimes get a better idea by taking averages over several vertical and horizontal lines, or by sampling multiple frames. However, in the end you are not adding detail. Some images might have enough small parts of the details to "guess" at what should be there. Some might not have enough to even do basic reconstruction. It is hit or miss.

Even the most sophisticated interpolation software used by police does not attempt to add detail in. Instead it focuses on smoothing and sharpening edges. But if something like a license plate doesn't have all the numbers showing because of resolution, nothing the police can do can add them back in.

480p has 720 horizontal pixels per line. 1080p has 1920. So in effect you are removing every other horizontal line. You can lose a lot of detail doing that - detail that cannot be put back in. Combine that with the fact that you are losing every other vertical line as well. Basically for every pixel you have you lost 6 others. That is a lot of information you lose. Even if your interpolation scheme got 90% of pixels right, you would still be missing the detail in approximately 170,000 pixels. From what I have seen, accuracy is much lower than that on even the good interpolation schemes.

There will always be a difference between HD and upscaled. Detail will always be missing from upscaled. That isn't a question or up for debate. The real debate here is can it be gotten "close enough" to not matter.

So who out there wants to buy a new player from Toshiba, that doesn't play HD DVDs or Blu-rays, but costs more other upconverting players currently on the market?

I don't think you are going to have to camp out to get one, thats for sure.

Assume you are looking at a picture of a face. Fold it in the middle, then fold each edge back again so you are holding what looks like a T. Now, the basic outline of a face will still be there. Now try to write an algorithm that fills in what is missing. Do you think you can get the color of the eyes right? How about the shape of the nose? What if there is a scar above the eyebrow - will you get that right?

The honest answer to all of those things is no. You cannot recreate detail that isn't there. If you knew it was a face, you could approximate features with "average" features, but there is no way you could get an image that represented the actual face as well as if you had the full image of the actual face.

Interpolation is an attempt by a program to "unfold" the paper. Interpolation does not add detail, it just tries to guess at what pixels in between two given pixels might be. Your success at that depends on many factors. Depending on the routine, it can make images "soft" by color blending pixels where there should be a hard cut or "hard" by putting in hard cuts where there should be soft blends. You can sometimes get a better idea by taking averages over several vertical and horizontal lines, or by sampling multiple frames. However, in the end you are not adding detail. Some images might have enough small parts of the details to "guess" at what should be there. Some might not have enough to even do basic reconstruction. It is hit or miss.

Even the most sophisticated interpolation software used by police does not attempt to add detail in. Instead it focuses on smoothing and sharpening edges. But if something like a license plate doesn't have all the numbers showing because of resolution, nothing the police can do can add them back in.

480p has 720 horizontal pixels per line. 1080p has 1920. So in effect you are removing every other horizontal line. You can lose a lot of detail doing that - detail that cannot be put back in. Combine that with the fact that you are losing every other vertical line as well. Basically for every pixel you have you lost 6 others. That is a lot of information you lose. Even if your interpolation scheme got 90% of pixels right, you would still be missing the detail in approximately 170,000 pixels. From what I have seen, accuracy is much lower than that on even the good interpolation schemes.

There will always be a difference between HD and upscaled. Detail will always be missing from upscaled. That isn't a question or up for debate. The real debate here is can it be gotten "close enough" to not matter.

Of course upscaling can not look equal to true HD (did I even say that)? And of course the question is "can it be gotten close enough to not matter". But the point is that these filled pixel gaps can look quite natural if done right (of course they aren't 100% accurate but the eye won't see a slight drift of the colour of one pixel so easily).

BTW: Here's the newest comparison I made between my old and my newly optimized algorithm. The old still looks good from far away and I'm sure that I can use a tad more sharpening on CG in comparison with real-life scenes.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5584/comparisoniz6.png

Of course upscaling can not look equal to true HD (did I even say that)? And of course the question is "can it be gotten close enough to not matter". But the point is that these filled pixel gaps can look quite natural if done right (of course they aren't 100% accurate but the eye won't see a slight drift of the colour of one pixel so easily).

BTW: Here's the newest comparison I made between my old and my newly optimized algorithm. The old still looks good from far away and I'm sure that I can use a tad more sharpening on CG in comparison with real-life scenes.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5584/comparisoniz6.png

I really really hate to point out the obvious - but those images you are posting are 640x384.

These are downscaled to a size below that of the average DVD. There is absolutely NO way we can make any judgments on the quality of your algorithm if you are presenting an image that has been re downscaled as proof of how well it works. Most if not all of the artifacts your algorithm adds could be softened and removed by the second downscaling.

The other thing is we are talking about more than just color drift from pixel to pixel. The best way to see that would be to take a real high definition image with sharp lines.

Here is an image at a resolution 1080p. (http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/fshow.shtml?i=grid&w=1920&h=1200&y=2005&n=The%20Grid&b=count&z=228761256117633726) Take that image, downscale it to 480p by the usual decimation technique. Then upscale it using your algorithm and post it again at 1920x1200. That would be a real comparison people can look at.

That one shouldn't be hard, as there isn't really any color drift you need to worry about. Once you've done that, try these:
Planet Scape with little color drift (http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/graphics/1152/verdure.jpg)
City scape with more color drift (http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/fshow.shtml?i=undiscovered-night&w=1920&h=1200&y=2006&n=Undiscovered%20(Night)&b=count&z=228415080169353527)

You should ONLY use the first image to tune your procedure. The next two have to be run as is without modifications. That is how a real product would perform in the field.

Whoops. Yeah,right. I have downscaling activated in Imageshack (it's so damn slow without it). But even with the downscaling I can see a big difference.

The last shots I'll post in this downscaled matter:

0.6/0.6
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/774/test200282vn1.png

2/2
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2722/test201745ne8.png

2nd routine deactivated (different aspect ratio due to missing aspect correction which is included in routine 2).
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/761/test202399tb1.png

Pure SD
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2084/test202827lq0.png

Not quite as awesome as I thought it would turn out. Lord Of The Rings looks quite better.

PS: I'll try to post my next screenshot in a format close to (or exactly matching) 768p.

Ok. Just did a quick test with my own test picture. The Red Book Of Westmarch at the end of Lord Of The Rings: The Return Of The King. Actually the whole texture of the paper and some colour differences on the writing must be seen in order to be correct.

The resulting: 2/2 looks overal better than 0.6/0.6 (even with some slight ringing). 0.6/0.6 doesn't show all detail and is overly too soft.

Its the screen size and screen distance that will determine how much you can upconvert with satisfaying results.

On my 32 inch its hard to motivate going HDM instead of upscale
On my projector its easy to motivate going HDM instead of upscale

So the real question is how does J6P feel?


But one thing everyone should think about, is thats its good that they try and push upscaling tech.

Your old DVD collection will look better.
The same algorithms can make BDs look better on even higher resed displays.
It forces BD to lower prices.´

That Toshiba sells upscaling DVD player will not make your BDs or HD DVD look worse.

Its the screen size and screen distance that will determine how much you can upconvert with satisfaying results.

On my 32 inch its hard to motivate going HDM instead of upscale
On my projector its easy to motivate going HDM instead of upscale

So the real question is how does J6P feel?


But one thing everyone should think about, is thats its good that they try and push upscaling tech.

Your old DVD collection will look better.
The same algorithms can make BDs look better on even higher resed displays.
It forces BD to lower prices.´

That Toshiba sells upscaling DVD player will not make your BDs or HD DVD look worse.

Exactly. Good put.

Its the screen size and screen distance that will determine how much you can upconvert with satisfaying results.

On my 32 inch its hard to motivate going HDM instead of upscale
On my projector its easy to motivate going HDM instead of upscale

So the real question is how does J6P feel?

But one thing everyone should think about, is thats its good that they try and push upscaling tech.

Your old DVD collection will look better.
The same algorithms can make BDs look better on even higher resed displays.
It forces BD to lower prices.´

That Toshiba sells upscaling DVD player will not make your BDs or HD DVD look worse.

I dont know. Even though this tech is new and supposidly better.... I think it will be tough to market a 1080p SD upscalar as new tech, when 1080i/p upscalars have been around for 3-4 years now.

I dont know. Even though this tech is new and supposidly better.... I think it will be tough to market a 1080p SD upscalar as new tech, when 1080i/p upscalars have been around for 3-4 years now.

Well upscaling DVD player do sell well. And I dont think Toshiba care that much what upscaling player people buys as long as its a DVD player. Their tactic seems to be to make the best upscaler on the market to help people stay on the DVD side, were their royalites are.

Will it succeed? Who knows, but I have nothing against competition as it will help bring down blu-prices.

I believe the concensus by critical viewers is that the region 1 Lord of the Rings movies have been overly filtered and thus will be lacking a lot of the detail you are trying to show.

Those screen shots you put up demonstrate a tremendous difference in light and shadow between the original DVD and the postprocessed one.

Why so unfriendly?

Yeah I know ;)

I jumped to the conclusion that this was yet another scheme from Toshiba to make people go for Upconverted DVD instead of BD.

It was my A-hole side screaming at Toshiba ;)

I jumped to the conclusion that this was yet another scheme from Toshiba to make people go for Upconverted DVD instead of BD.



Yes it wold be terrible if people went BD by choise. ;)

Better upscaling is always a plus. anyone complaining about getting a better picture in any shape or form is full of bs. oh my god... toshiba made it so it has to be bad, whatever....

if this technology is implemented across the board and is better then current upscaling technology then im all for it. I will hold judgement until it arrives and i get to see what it will do with twister.

having said that there is no way to make something into high def that isnt already high def. its not possible. as has been stated you cannot create something that isnt there. a program could assume some things but even if the image looks great it could be wrong. meaning the wrong assumptions were made and the wrong colors or details were implemented by the program causing a cartoonish look to the movie.

Did I read correctly? 960i? Didn't Sony already do this back in 2004 with their Digital Reality Creation feature (which I STILL think sucks) on their displays? I distinctly recall there was an option for this resolution, and I believe the PS3 has it as well. And even if Toshiba's "interpretation" of this trick is far superior due to the use of the Cell processor, what about Faroudja? I doubt seriously that Toshiba could top THAT lot, though anything is possible these days. Like maybe the content providers are going to impose a moratorium on producing the same old movies on Blu-ray so that we can all go out and buy SD DVD players with "super upconversion" and watch the DVDs we already have in our possession. Hollywood doesn't really need the money anyway, and we all know just how much they care about us being screwed by their constant double-dipping. And how much do they think they're going to actually sell these "new" DVD players for? Coby has an upconverting player in the stores for $30!!! Toshiba will have to come up with something other than "super upconverting" to describe their "innovation" if they want to be "special" enough to charge more for their players.

Either Mr. Nishida's brain is on hold, or he and his company have been so traumatized by their defeat that they've moved to their own private Idaho. I used to think this company was great, but now I'm wondering if some other outfit shouldn't just buy them out.

Well the source is always the most important part in upscaling, you cant make miracles out of s...

But not many HDM goes the full way up to 1000 lines of res either. So the difference isnt that big always.

It would be interesting to se how far they can push upscaling capacity.

http://www.benvista.com/main/skin1/images/content/ourproducts/photozoompro/pzp2_example1.htm

Did I read correctly? 960i? Didn't Sony already do this back in 2004 with their Digital Reality Creation feature (which I STILL think sucks) on their displays? I distinctly recall there was an option for this resolution, and I believe the PS3 has it as well. And even if Toshiba's "interpretation" of this trick is far superior due to the use of the Cell processor, what about Faroudja? I doubt seriously that Toshiba could top THAT lot, though anything is possible these days. Like maybe the content providers are going to impose a moratorium on producing the same old movies on Blu-ray so that we can all go out and buy SD DVD players with "super upconversion" and watch the DVDs we already have in our possession. Hollywood doesn't really need the money anyway, and we all know just how much they care about us being screwed by their constant double-dipping. And how much do they think they're going to actually sell these "new" DVD players for? Coby has an upconverting player in the stores for $30!!! Toshiba will have to come up with something other than "super upconverting" to describe their "innovation" if they want to be "special" enough to charge more for their players.

Either Mr. Nishida's brain is on hold, or he and his company have been so traumatized by their defeat that they've moved to their own private Idaho. I used to think this company was great, but now I'm wondering if some other outfit shouldn't just buy them out.

1. it's 960p
2. resolution is not everything, implementation is the key. saying 960 will be worse than 1080 is like saying my 6 MP dSLR with L-series lenses is worse than a 14 MP point and shoot. :p

1. it's 960p
2. resolution is not everything, implementation is the key. saying 960 will be worse than 1080 is like saying my 6 MP dSLR with L-series lenses is worse than a 14 MP point and shoot. :p

Well technically, this situation is the exact opposite of what you have described.

Toshiba is taking a point and shoot camera with .35MP CCD and making a 1.6MP image out of it. BD has a larger CCD and a better lense.... and making a 2.1MP(1920x1080) image out of it.

Well technically, this situation is the exact opposite of what you have described.

Toshiba is taking a point and shoot camera with .35MP CCD and making a 1.6MP image out of it. BD has a larger CCD and a better lense.... and making a 2.1MP(1920x1080) image out of it.

A bad habit of various posters have over here: taking replies out of context.

I'm responding to a poster's comment that Toshiba 960 upscaling is pointless because there is already a $30 1080 upscaling Coby DVD player.

I'm NOT discussing about the merits of upscaling at all.

Well technically, this situation is the exact opposite of what you have described.

Toshiba is taking a point and shoot camera with .35MP CCD and making a 1.6MP image out of it. BD has a larger CCD and a better lense.... and making a 2.1MP(1920x1080) image out of it.

+1

david's analogy was backwards. toshiba thinks they can take the image from a cheap point and shoot and make it equal to pictures from your high end equipment.

Hell, I'll be selling my 5 and 9 MP cameras and will just keep my 640X480 key chain camera. Hell I can just upconvert that 640 X 480 image to look just as good and why on earth did I buy that HD camcorder. I think I should have just kept that good old VHS shoulder cam.

+1

david's analogy was backwards. toshiba thinks they can take the image from a cheap point and shoot and make it equal to pictures from your high end equipment.

yet another person taking my response out of context. :rolleyes:

Hell, I'll be selling my 5 and 9 MP cameras and will just keep my 640X480 key chain camera. Hell I can just upconvert that 640 X 480 image to look just as good.

well, if it is any consolation, I've tried using 2 MP camera phone image, upconvert it to 8 MP, print it to 40"x60" and from the display (printed, with backlighting) none of the viewer realize that it's taken using a camera phone. ;)

yet another person taking my response out of context. :rolleyes:

Your analogy was quoted in full. It's not our fault that it simply doesn't fit.

Your analogy was quoted in full. It's not our fault that it simply doesn't fit.


Quoted in full doesn't mean it's in context. The context is, again as already mentioned above, is to respond a previous poster's statement (I paraphrase) "why buy Toshiba Super Upscaling at 960p when I can buy a Coby 1080 upscaling DVD player for $30"

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

A bad habit of various posters have over here: taking replies out of context.

I'm responding to a poster's comment that Toshiba 960 upscaling is pointless because there is already a $30 1080 upscaling Coby DVD player.

I'm NOT discussing about the merits of upscaling at all.

You didnt provide a point of context. If you are not clear... then guess whose fault that is.

The person you quoted didnt say anything about a 1080p coby upconverter being better than this 960p toshiba player. In fact, the poster you quoted didnt mention 1080p at all. You did.

Why would I assume that you are talking about a 1080p coby upconverter when the entire thread makes NO reference of one?

Upscaling will never be the technical equal for replacing pure resolution.

But it doesn't have to be the technical equal to be profitable.

It only has to be "close enough".

Now, for most of us posting here, it couldn't possibly be "close enough" but we are not Toshiba's (and others) target market for this.

It takes a sizable monetary expendature to get the real benefits of "real" HDM.

Anything that narrows the apparent "resolution gap" between dvd and HDM reduces the likelihood that a potential new adopter will shell out the money to convert to "Full HD".

The fact that many posting here won't like this doesn't make it any less true.

Coby has an upconverting player in the stores for $30!!! Toshiba will have to come up with something other than "super upconverting" to describe their "innovation" if they want to be "special" enough to charge more for their players.

clear enough for you?

Quoted in full doesn't mean it's in context. The context is, again as already mentioned above, is to respond a previous poster's statement (I paraphrase) "why buy Toshiba Super Upscaling at 960p when I can buy a Coby 1080 upscaling DVD player for $30"

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

As a matter of fact, if you reread rudy1's post... YOU are taking his post out of context.

He says
1) While this upconversion trick may be better than the rest due to the CELL proc, it still sucks(all upconverters compared to BD, since we are in the HDM forum).
2) How much will these sell for when other vendors sells upconverters for $30
3) He does not make any comparison between this new product vs the coby DVD player.

How is anyone supposed to get that you are now comparing the Coby player to this 960p incarnation, when the post you quote does not make the comparison, and your post doesnt have any reference to what you are comparing?

But it doesn't have to be the technical equal to be profitable.

Agreed!

$10 movies with $100 (presumable) players: near HD
$30 movies with $400 players: real HD

Does real HD perceivably 300% to 400% better than near HD for the average consumer? no!


I'd buy one if it is actually better than my XA2 and priced at no more than $100. I have 3,000 DVD to play.

clear enough for you?

Who is taking something out of context? (hint... its You) Here is the context of Rudy1's statement.

And how much do they think they're going to actually sell these "new" DVD players for? Coby has an upconverting player in the stores for $30!!! Toshiba will have to come up with something other than "super upconverting" to describe their "innovation" if they want to be "special" enough to charge more for their players.

Upscaling will never be the technical equal for replacing pure resolution.

But it doesn't have to be the technical equal to be profitable.

It only has to be "close enough".

Now, for most of us posting here, it couldn't possibly be "close enough" but we are not Toshiba's (and others) target market for this.

It takes a sizable monetary expendature to get the real benefits of "real" HDM.

Anything that narrows the apparent "resolution gap" between dvd and HDM reduces the likelihood that a potential new adopter will shell out the money to convert to "Full HD".

The fact that many posting here won't like this doesn't make it any less true.

I have well over 2,000 DVDs in my library. If I'm not the market for something like this then no one is. Unless you're saying the market is people who aren't interested in movies or hi-def who happen to own HDTVs?

If they can give us something like this that works as advertised I'd be willing to buy it to supplement my current HD DVD and Blu ray players, but anyone who thinks this is a replacement, or competition, to real HDM is misinformed or bitter about something...

Who is taking something out of context? (hint... its You) Here is the context of Rudy1's statement.

and now you're taking HIS statement out of context. He wrote that because he feels that a 960 upconversion can't beat a 1080 upconversion (read his first couple of sentences).

This is my last post regarding the context because I'm unwilling to give ESL lessons for free.

...but anyone who thinks this is a replacement, or competition, to real HDM is misinformed or bitter about something...

or taking the CEO's meaning out of context. :p

We are just spculating at this point. Let's see what Toshiba does and how the picture will look.

I have well over 2,000 DVDs in my library. If I'm not the market for something like this then no one is. Unless you're saying the market is people who aren't interested in movies or hi-def who happen to own HDTVs?

If they can give us something like this that works as advertised I'd be willing to buy it to supplement my current HD DVD and Blu ray players, but anyone who thinks this is a replacement, or competition, to real HDM is misinformed or bitter about something...


No.

I'm saying this is marketed (and probably adequate) for people who have 720p/768p tvs and who do not yet own a HD player.

That's the real market. For the forseeable future anyway.

I'm not saying it's a replacement for "real HDM".

I'm saying there are many folks who would buy it instead.

Now, I wouldn't. You wouldn't. Most folks here wouldn't.

But we are not the market for this.

No.

I'm saying this is marketed (and probably adequate) for people who have 720p/768p tvs and who do not yet own a HD player.

That's the real market. For the forseeable future anyway.

I'm not saying it's a replacement for "real HDM".

I'm saying there are many folks who would buy it instead.

Now, I wouldn't. You wouldn't. Most folks here wouldn't.

But we are not the market for this.

Unless these things are going for less than $60 then the market you speak of won't bite, and I'd be VERY surprised if they can get something like this under that price point. Once you've got the specs needed you might as well throw a BD reader in the machine and call it an XA3-BD.

So how is OPPO doing as a company? And what are the prices of their UP DVD players?

A bad habit of various posters have over here: taking replies out of context.

I'm responding to a poster's comment that Toshiba 960 upscaling is pointless because there is already a $30 1080 upscaling Coby DVD player.

I'm NOT discussing about the merits of upscaling at all.


and now you're taking HIS statement out of context. He wrote that because he feels that a 960 upconversion can't beat a 1080 upconversion (read his first couple of sentences).

This is my last post regarding the context because I'm unwilling to give ESL lessons for free.

Please point out anywhere in his post where he states that a coby 1080p player is better than the 960p implementation of toshibas upconversion. In fact, point to 1080p in his post. Point to where he says the toshiba player is pointless due to the coby player.

I dont have to resort to insults to show that YOU have misinterpreted, misread or misrepresented Rudy1's post.

Here is Rudy1's reference to the coby player if you want to READ is again
And how much do they think they're going to actually sell these "new" DVD players for? Coby has an upconverting player in the stores for $30!!! Toshiba will have to come up with something other than "super upconverting" to describe their "innovation" if they want to be "special" enough to charge more for their players.

one of the hollywood insiders at bluray.com has already stated that they are planning to make dvd obsolete and making bluray the only format -- he said his lips were sealed on this matter and he would not go into further detail

if that comes to pass, toshiba will be forced to make BD players.


So....all those people with DVD players only (and likely no HDTV) are f***ed?

Still think BluRay (or HD DVD for that matter if the tables were turned) is headed for at best, a large niche market - the laserdisc of this generation.

Blu will co-exist w/ DVD, but make DVD "obsolete"? In the eyes of some here & others of our ilk, perhaps. Hasn't it already now that all studios are on the Blu train?

To your grandma or Aunt Matilda? Doubtful. The "real" format war - Blu Vs. DVD will be the real stalemate, I fear.

What I find funny is all the complaining (which has a whiff of fear) over Toshiba's potential "super upconversion". They got trounced in the HDM battle. Might as well stick to what is gonna make them $$ - DVD. And a new marketing angle is the best way to stay in the game.

It's true that a 480p DVD image can't be magically converted to a 1080p one. But if the technology is there to get 480p even closer than it can currently to "true HD", why not market it?

Yes, a BluRay player will get you "real" 1080p HD. A "super upconverter" might get you really frakin' close....and do so with your existing DVDs & all those other DVDs that cost (in most cases) half of what Blu discs do. The only real advantage Blu would have would be in the audio dept.

If Tosh's new upscaling can do what is being claimed/imagined/predicted, the BDA's fight will get MUCH MUCH harder.

Either Mr. Nishida's brain is on hold, or he and his company have been so traumatized by their defeat that they've moved to their own private Idaho. I used to think this company was great, but now I'm wondering if some other outfit shouldn't just buy them out.

Ah, last time I checked Toshiba was a business. SD DVD's are where all their royalties are and if they can improve or further sustain it's success then I'm sure that will make their stockholders that much happier. So in the end this could be a very good business decision on their behalf regardless of what some might think about it. But I'm still bitter how they treated HD DVD and will not be buying one, plus my upconverting on my A20 is just fine for me, thank you.

Unless these things are going for less than $60 then the market you speak of won't bite, and I'd be VERY surprised if they can get something like this under that price point. Once you've got the specs needed you might as well throw a BD reader in the machine and call it an XA3-BD.

Perhaps, but when I bought my HD-A2 for $98 (obviously sold at a loss)
it was $30 cheaper than any decent "upconverter" at your average BM electronics store.

I have nothing against BR. Nothing at all.

I don't own one yet but I will. I see the benefits and already have good enough equipment to enjoy it.

Most do not, yet, own that equipment. Some never will.

The new market is for those who might.

And many of those could, easily, be swayed by good marketing and "adequate" performance at a sizeable cost savings.

So how is OPPO doing as a company? And what are the prices of their UP DVD players?

J6P doesn't know who the hell Oppo is, and isn't buying their players, so I'm not exactly sure what your point is supposed to be.

To restate, Toshiba found the price point for HD player adoption and didn't like $99 as that point. So they are going to try a different strategy, using media the studios will not manipulate for a while.

so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images.


You guys are too funny and overly stubborn about reality...also 5 pages of typical responses from the HDM fan club and AVSers that want the extra special stuff.(I have no problem with that just stop trying to argue on what you think the consumer wants)

You all realize that you ARE NOT THE consumer he is talking about dont you?

He is correct that improved upscalling will have the consumer (J6P they care about) wondering what all the fuss is about HDM.

If you dont understand that then hang out in a wallmart, BB or any other BIG box store for a weekend and just listen to the customers and Sales kids dicussions.

So how is OPPO doing as a company? And what are the prices of their UP DVD players?

Yikes another fine point :eek:

Um...how is an "high end" audio/video company doing.

You make money two ways, huge margins/low volume or low margins/high volumes.

who the F**k cares about OPPO in the real world (outside of AVS). Consumers dont know what it is so what is the point?

well, if it is any consolation, I've tried using 2 MP camera phone image, upconvert it to 8 MP, print it to 40"x60" and from the display (printed, with backlighting) none of the viewer realize that it's taken using a camera phone. ;)

Well I have upconverted 5 MP images to 14MP to print poster sized photos. Although the picture did not show any pixels and looked somewhat smooth, it looked no where near what a full 14MP resolution image would look like. This upconversion was done in 10% using the best method as well. The fact remains that upconverted will never look as good as a full resolution image. Now you say you upconverted a 2MP image to 8MP... now try upconverting a 345K image to 2 Megapixels and see if your friends still think that it looks good when you print it.

one of the hollywood insiders at bluray.com has already stated that they are planning to make dvd obsolete and making bluray the only format -- he said his lips were sealed on this matter and he would not go into further detail

Simple BS, wanna put money on the fact that dvd's will not be obsolete?? Its a no brainer that its financial suicide to do so.

You guys are too funny and overly stubborn to reality...typical responses from the HDM fan club and AVSers that want the extra special stuff.

You all realize that you ARE NOT THE consumer he is talking about dont you?

He is correct that improved upscalling will have the consumer (J6P they care about) wondering what all the fuss is about HDM.

If you dont understand that then hang out in a wallmart, BB or any other BIG box store for a weekend and just listen to the customers and Sales kids dicussions.

The problem is they haven't demonstrated that they can improve upscaling to that point at a price that J6P is willing to pay. These new players are most likely going to be just as expensive as HD DVD players to manufacturer (maybe more), and if they couldn't get J6P to bite on a $99 upscaling HD DVD player are they really going to find them buying a $200 upscaling DVD player if the difference is anywhere between the 3rd gen HD DVD player upscaling and real HD sources?

The problem is they haven't demonstrated that they can improve upscaling to that point at a price that J6P is willing to pay. These new players are most likely going to be just as expensive as HD DVD players to manufacturer (maybe more), and if they couldn't get J6P to bite on a $99 upscaling HD DVD player are they really going to find them buying a $200 upscaling DVD player if the difference is anywhere between the 3rd gen HD DVD player upscaling and real HD sources?

While you and I believe this too be true.

99% of anyone I know already think their upscaling DVD players (cheap ones) look as good as HD movies. Ignorant or whatever, that is the truth about the consumer out there. WE DONT COUNT!!!

maybe the true point here is that J6P will never care enough to want HD movies.

they couldn't get J6P to bite on a $99 upscaling HD DVD player

They did get tons of sales...they were sold out everywhere (in 10 minutes or less) so you are wrong about "no one biting". If there were more they would have sold them all period. That is what business people call a "bite"

You guys are too funny and overly stubborn about reality...also 5 pages of typical responses from the HDM fan club and AVSers that want the extra special stuff.(I have no problem with that just stop trying to argue on what you think the consumer wants)

You all realize that you ARE NOT THE consumer he is talking about dont you?

He is correct that improved upscalling will have the consumer (J6P they care about) wondering what all the fuss is about HDM.

If you dont understand that then hang out in a wallmart, BB or any other BIG box store for a weekend and just listen to the customers and Sales kids dicussions.

Obviously I cant speak for "everyone" but...

If I had a 1080p upconverting DVD player (from philips, toshiba, sony) and I wanted to get a new player for better quality. I would not get an upconverting 960p DVD player.

Actual quality aside... a 960P upconverting player for more than $60 is going to be tough to market.

They did get tons of sales...they were sold out everywhere (in 10 minutes or less) so you are wrong about "no one biting".

The problem is people like me who already owned HD DVD players were there buying our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th players. I'd already bitten. The lack of any noticeable increase in title sales after supports this.

The problem is they haven't demonstrated that they can improve upscaling to that point at a price that J6P is willing to pay. These new players are most likely going to be just as expensive as HD DVD players to manufacturer (maybe more), and if they couldn't get J6P to bite on a $99 upscaling HD DVD player are they really going to find them buying a $200 upscaling DVD player if the difference is anywhere between the 3rd gen HD DVD player upscaling and real HD sources?
Well its there only option because content providers are not going to be creating HD DVD discs anymore.

If DVD players are profitable for Toshiba now, and they are not going to produce Blu-ray players anytime soon, then this is the logical course of action.

99% of anyone I know already think their upscaling DVD players (cheap ones) look as good as HD movies.



99% of ordinary folks I know, think their cheap upscaling DVD players are HD.

"It says so right on the box." :rolleyes:

And, of those folks, less than 50% have even a basic HTiB receiver/surround package.

Most listen to the audio straight from their tv.

Well its there only option because content providers are not going to be creating HD DVD discs anymore.

If DVD players are profitable for Toshiba now, and they are not going to produce Blu-ray players anytime soon, then this is the logical course of action.

Do you think they can produce a player like this, with all the horsepower it would need, for less than what it would cost to manufacture a BD player? And if it costs as much or more to make than a BD player then who is the market?

Agreed!

$10 movies with $100 (presumable) players: near HD
$30 movies with $400 players: real HD

Does real HD perceivably 300% to 400% better than near HD for the average consumer? no!


I'd buy one if it is actually better than my XA2 and priced at no more than $100. I have 3,000 DVD to play.


The other problem with HDM is many HDMs have an artistic look to the film and up-converted DVDs look just as good as the original HDM; unless you have a very good 1080p24 calibrated monitor and you are sitting close to the screen.

Even old films remastered to HDM has been reprocessed to give that "HD" look from the original film reel. For example I watched Rio Bravo on HD DVD last night and the characters clothing looked detailed but the faces looked on the soft side, didn't look quite normal to me.

Myself I've had the A1 for almost 2 years, it's up-convert was the best I'm seen at the time. But now that I have bought an XA2, about 2 weeks now, it's even a better up-convert from the A1, not as good as a excellent HD DVD release. But I find XA2's up-convert incredible seen on my 65" 1080i screen from a 720x480 DVD frame size. If Toshiba can improve this even further then all the power to them! :)

...Angelo

Do you think they can produce a player like this, with all the horsepower it would need, for less than what it would cost to manufacture a BD player? And if it costs as much or more to make than a BD player then who is the market?


I would assume that since this the direction Toshiba is obviously taking, they must figure that the cost of such "super" players will be lower (considerably, I imagine) than the typical BD unit.

Although some may disagree, the Toshiba suits aren't idiots. They're not gonna go this route & market these players at BluRay prices.

Am very interested in seeing this new upconversion in action.

Do you think they can produce a player like this, with all the horsepower it would need, for less than what it would cost to manufacture a BD player? And if it costs as much or more to make than a BD player then who is the market?

Clearly, if it didn't cost much less to produce than a BD player it would be a terrible business decision for Toshiba.

Do I know if Toshiba can make it cheaper? Of course not.

Is Toshiba capable of making a terrible business decision? Heh! Draw your own conclusions.

The only logical conclusion I can make is that Toshiba thinks it will be cheaper enough.

Only time will tell.

And since nobody, outside of Toshiba, has seen this, it may all be moot.

99% of ordinary folks I know, think their cheap upscaling DVD players are HD.

"It says so right on the box."

And, of those folks, less than 50% have even a basic HTiB receiver/surround package.

Most listen to the audio straight from their tv.

yep :D

Hey, my friends thought HD movies where dead when they heard HD-DVD is dead. They had no idea BR was HDM. lol.

If I had a 1080p upconverting DVD player (from philips, toshiba, sony) and I wanted to get a new player for better quality. I would not get an upconverting 960p DVD player.

Thats fine but you are not the consumer Toshiba is talking about anyways so your opinion about what YOU want doesnt matter wrt the article.

The biggest problem with this forum is that people on here think that their prefrences and their decisions are important to the profitability of companies out there. Sure OPPO needs you guys but Toshiba and most of the other companies dont even market to you or try to.

Those companies are in the high volume/low margin business and their customer is not you. Post after post complaining about a PRODUCT that isnt even marketed towards you guys makes me think some people just like to rant and rave....(me too :D )

I tend to believe the CEO of toshiba is a smarter businessman (wrt to HIS business) then anyone posting on here so I will give him some respect and benifit of doubt on what he is trying to do.

I hope they do make upconversion the future for the real consumer.

ONLY because I love reading about the pain and suffering on here ;) Its good lunch time reading :D

I hope they do make upconversion the future for the real consumer.

ONLY because I love reading about the pain and suffering on here ;) Its good lunch time reading :D

:D :D :D

...Angelo

Excellent points by many here, and utter nonsense by others - exercise to determine which are which left to the reader. ;)

The sample pics of the general technique (how similar it is to what Toshiba has in mind, I have no idea really) are definitely interesting - I'm assuming those are just done a frame at a time, if so I'm curious how this works when its video - for example, if it is using previous / subsequent frame detail to infer what detail can be added to the current frame, it would seem that it would work poorly when its a near still, and also poorly when the motion is rapid, and only provide benefits when there is moderate motion? Also, curious how much horsepower is required to do this with DVD size and frame rate, real time.

In the end, I couldn't care less whether its 1080 or 960 or 240 for that matter (well, that last one would probably worry me a little), I just care about the end result, what does the picture actually look like - is it pleasing to my eye (and also don't care whether it matches the director's intentions / vision). For example, the smooth motion stuff sounded neat to me in theory, but when I've seen it in person, it seemed like characters were swimming, kind of seasick looking.

Thats fine but you are not the consumer Toshiba is talking about anyways so your opinion about what YOU want doesnt matter wrt the article.

The biggest problem with this forum is that people on here think that their prefrences and their decisions are important to the profitability of companies out there. Sure OPPO needs you guys but Toshiba and most of the other companies dont even market to you or try to.

Those companies are in the high volume/low margin business and their customer is not you. Post after post complaining about a PRODUCT that isnt even marketed towards you guys makes me think some people just like to rant and rave....(me too :D )

So let me ask you this. If you already own a 1080p upconverter and were looking to upgrade for higher quality, Without researching...would you think to replace the 1080p converter with a 960p converter?

So let me ask you this. If you already own a 1080p upconverter and were looking to upgrade for higher quality, Without researching...would you think to replace the 1080p converter with a 960p converter?

This question has nothing to do with the thread or what the CEO is talking about but the answer is obvious.

Of course not, I own a piece of equipment already. If I owned a 960p converter I wouldnt buy the 1080p converter either, it goes both ways and the difference isnt meaningful to the majority of people.

Here is the problem with your point of view. NO ONE that MATTERS to Toshiba OWNS a 1080p upconverter and they are talking about those consumers. Again, Toshiba doesnt care about the active AVSers that live and breath HDM already.

Toshiba needs to swallow there pride and dump profile 2.0 BR players on the open market for $50.00 each. By the time the million unit is sold off the production line, they will be making money hand over fist.

Here is the problem with your point of view. NO ONE that MATTERS to Toshiba OWNS a 1080p upconverter and they are talking about those consumers. Again, Toshiba doesnt care about the active AVSers that live and breath HDM already.

Toshiba should care, because we're also the group with the largest collections of SD material. If J6P can't tell the difference between real HD and 1080p upscaled using current tech he's sure not going to tell the difference between it and this new tech.

This question has nothing to do with the thread or what the CEO is talking about but the answer is obvious.

Of course not, I own a piece of equipment already. If I owned a 960p converter I wouldnt buy the 1080p converter either, it goes both ways and the difference isnt meaningful to the majority of people.

Here is the problem with your point of view. NO ONE that MATTERS to Toshiba OWNS a 1080p upconverter and they are talking about those consumers. Again, Toshiba doesnt care about the active AVSers that live and breath HDM already.

So who are they targeting? From reading their statement, they are obviously targeting people who would otherwise buy a Blu Ray player.

So what exactly is there target?
People who want a BD player... but dont want to spend the money, havent already bought a 1080p upconverter for $50... but are willing to spend more than $50 on a Cell based 960P player?

It just doesnt seem like there is much of a market for this product.

Toshiba should care, because we're also the group with the largest collections of SD material. If J6P can't tell the difference between real HD and 1080p upscaled using current tech he's sure not going to tell the difference between it and this new tech.

'WE' as in less then 1% of the market?

If you are referring to "WE" as in AVSers, reading high end audio/video forum threads then I have to say that "WE" dont count to Toshiba because they want volume business and "WE" are not volume business.

Im included in that, Toshiba doesnt market to me and I know that. I want better but that doesnt me Toshiba is wrong in creating a 960p upconverting player. IF they can do it at a low cost then it will work for J6P who really doesnt care about 1080p and so on. They never have, they just want low cost, preceived high quality stuff.

There just isnt enouhg "AVS" type people in the world to create a large enough volume sales therefore why build products for "AVS" type people. Let some Niche market company do that and let them charge HUGE premiums (ie...most ads on this site).

'WE' as in less then 1% of the market?

If you are referring to "WE" as in AVSers, reading high end audio/video forum threads then I have to say that "WE" dont count to Toshiba because they want volume business and "WE" are not volume business.

Im included in that, Toshiba doesnt market to me and I know that. I want better but that doesnt me Toshiba is wrong in creating a 960p upconverting player. IF they can do it at a low cost then it will work for J6P who really doesnt care about 1080p and so on. They never have, they just want low cost, preceived high quality stuff.

There just isnt enouhg "AVS" type people in the world to create a large enough volume sales therefore why build products for "AVS" type people. Let some Niche market company do that and let them charge HUGE premiums (ie...most ads on this site).

I'm still not sure who you think their market is. The 90% of people who can't tell the difference between currently 1080p upscaled SD and BD?

So who are they targeting? From reading their statement, they are obviously targeting people who would otherwise buy a Blu Ray player.

So what exactly is there target?
People who want a BD player... but dont want to spend the money, havent already bought a 1080p upconverter for $50... but are willing to spend more than $50 on a Cell based 960P player?

It just doesnt seem like there is much of a market for this product.


Well obviously they are targeting the non-BluRay market which is I think still 95+% of all consumers and those consumers HAVE NOT purchased a 1080p upconverting player.

Does a player even exist? I thought its 1080i?

I'm still not sure who you think their market is. The 90% of people who can't tell the difference between currently 1080p upscaled SD and BD?

Yep :D

Actually its less about telling the difference and more about the difference not being great enough to spend the extra $$$.

The only people I know that care about the differences post on here.....hmmmm ;)

Toshiba needs to swallow there pride and dump profile 2.0 BR players on the open market for $50.00 each. By the time the million unit is sold off the production line, they will be making money hand over fist.

In Blu-ray Toshiba can't do anything that can't instantly be matched by other manufacturers. Why would people buy a $50 Toshiba over a $50 Panasonic or $60 Sony?

For that matter, who will buy their super-duper-upconverter if for a few dollars more you can buy a player that does that AND plays back Blu-ray?

They still seem to be trying to get an exclusive product that no one else can match - and failing badly at it.

Well obviously they are targeting the non-BluRay market which is I think still 90+% of all consumers and those consumers HAVE NOT purchased a 1080p upconverting player.

Does a player even exist? I thought its 1080i?

Again, is your argument that people who can't tell the difference between the choices available now are going to flock to buy a player that gives them results somewhere in between the two options they can't differentiate already?

this super upscaling is PLAN B for Toshiba.

i already knew this around last December. not that if hd-dvd would fail they would go this route, but Toshiba was working on it, but since the post i made last time when i spoke with my friend at Toshiba, so many were making jokes of me about it. and i got all these rants about not that it was not being true. i thought ok fook it. if so many people do not appreciate real news instead of the 90% of fiction that always gets discussed i did not bother to post it.

the download services of Toshiba i also already explained before as well. like 6 months ago. ofcourse the hd-dvd zealots claimed it was false etc.

well ain't it a bitch that the CEO of Toshiba now talks about it as well.

ah well in the end no hard feelings, but hopefully people learn a bit of 2 that when i may post something not to your likening it has nothing to do that i want to destroy that format, but just to give out some information as a hobbyist.

Well obviously they are targeting the non-BluRay market which is I think still 95+% of all consumers and those consumers HAVE NOT purchased a 1080p upconverting player.

Does a player even exist? I thought its 1080i?

From reading the quote of the CEO of toshiba... it sure sounds like he is targeting people who would otherwise buy a Blu Ray player.

Yes, I own a DVD recorder that upconverts to 1080p from toshiba.

Again, is your argument that people who can't tell the difference between the choices available now are going to flock to buy a player that gives them results somewhere in between the two options they can't differentiate already?

No Toshiba is fighting BluRay by trying to improve SD DVD playback. They think they can improve it enough to convince people that there is no reason to go with the more expensive BluRay option.

Toshiba ALREADY knows the average consumer does not get a big hard-on for HDM (720p or 1080p). The sales of both HDDVD and BR over the past years has already show that.

They are betting that a new improved upscaling regular DVD player might find a market.

Its that simple. Its not even a debate weather its as good as BR 1080p. Its more about the consumer not caring about the difference.

Yes, I own a DVD recorder that upconverts to 1080p from toshiba.

so you are really asking why would anyone buy a 960p upconverting DVD player vs 1080p upconverting DVD player?

Is the technology better for the 960p? Picture quality? price?

No Toshiba is fighting BluRay by trying to improve SD DVD playback. They think they can improve it enough to convince people that there is no reason to go with the more expensive BluRay option.

Like you said, J6P is already convinced there is no reason to go with BD. Now you're saying Toshiba is going to somehow automagically convince people who don't see a big enough difference in BD that they should spend $$$ on an even smaller difference in DVD+.

I wonder whether this is a technology that Toshiba is pursuing as an internal R&D project ("let's see where this goes"), and they've decided to float a balloon on the concept with this interview. If the response from the general public and/or industry pundits is like most of this thread, maybe the technology gets put on the back-burner (or re-directed to upscaling 1080p sources for 2160p displays...).

Or maybe it's just a red herring, and Toshiba has something else planned, and this is just a distraction to allow the real work that is somehow related to continue unobserved.

The best way to hide activity is to do something similar in parallel very publicly, but which would not be taken seriously - the real activity gets ignored in the background.

IMHO, pure speculation, I know nothing!

shinksma

i think there will be a hell of a market for a cell based dvd player (if it delivers the goods) as long as the prices can be established around $100, $200 max for the 'deluxe' model.
an xa2, 983h, other similar models are too expensive for j6p/masses.

ive got 700-800 dvds; no way im gonna re-buy all of them in hdm altho i may get a bd player. most will never be converted, anyway. and i have finally been spoiled by watching hdm (a2, a30).

so whats the next best option? maybe toshiba and others are putting it together.
AND, the real point, I WONT HAVE TO SPEND LOTS 'O MONEY TO RE-BUY MY COLLECTION IN HDM!

that still leaves the question of peeps that dont have an hdtv getting one.

I'm under the impression that the studios want to migrate a significant number of consumers from DVD to Blu-ray. They could nip this super-upconversion threat in the bud by double compressing movies for DVD and pressing them onto single layer discs. In fact, I have a funny feeling that the PQ offered on DVD for new releases will start to degrade as Blu-ray adoption takes off.

I took a quick look at the dvd '3:10 to yuma' the other nite on my pj. yuck.
maybe i need to spend time tweaking when i watch it for real.

maybe it was just the directors 'vision', 'intent':confused:.? uh-uh.

so you are really asking why would anyone buy a 960p upconverting DVD player vs 1080p upconverting DVD player?

Is the technology better for the 960p? Picture quality? price?

I am saying... how could you market a 960P player, when there are many 1080p upconverters for cheap already on the market. Who would you market this higher end SDupconverter to?

It doesnt seem like there is much of a market for people who want to upgrade their DVD player for PQ, dont want to pay BD prices, and think that 1080p upconverters are not good enough, but the presumably more expensive(than other upconverters) 960P up converters are worth the cost.

I took a quick look at the dvd '3:10 to yuma' the other nite on my pj. yuck.
maybe i need to spend time tweaking when i watch it for real.

maybe it was just the directors 'intent':confused:.

I rented Star Dust on DVD (as it was only $1.49 at Safeway) absolutely hideous!! Resident Evil:Exctintion was much better in audio and PQ for a DVD, though the blu-ray trailer from the PSN was still much better, I haven't watched the blu-ray disc version yet. I gave my friend crap for not bring the blu-ray version over instead, even though he hasn't jumped in yet. He can't believe how much detail blu-ray movies show.

Just a side note in this discussion. If your average person came and read this thread, what they would learn is that we - as in the people here at AVS - have already made up J6Ps mind for him. We know what he will think, we know what he will buy, ect.

The truth of the matter is we don't know what J6P will do. There are plenty of instances in the past where the average consumer did not take the "easy" or "obvious" route. I think many of the posts that harp on how XXX will succeed or fail because of J6P are really not being realistic. We don't know what J6P will do. It could be that the public wakes up one morning and decides Blu Ray looks 200% better than everything else. Even if it doesn't, it would be impossible to convince them of that. It may be that they wake up and decide that they look exactly the same. It doesn't matter if they don't, we wont be able to convince them otherwise.

It also really doesn't matter what your mother/brother/uncle's dog's best friend has to say. That isn't a large enough sample size to determine what is going to happen. It is at best anecdotal evidence.

Basing your purchases or strategy on what someone else will do is not really a very good way to go about it. In threads like this I would love to see more discussion about what we want and don't want than what J6P wants and doesn't want. Fact is that when I decide to buy something I do so because it has a value to me. It doesn't matter if it becomes mainstream, if it becomes the next big thing, ect. It only matters that it has a value for me. Sometimes it is nice to discuss the pros/cons of a technology rather than guess at what J6P is going to do with that technology.

I am saying... how could you market a 960P player, when there are many 1080p upconverters for cheap already on the market. Who would you market this higher end SDupconverter to?

It doesnt seem like there is much of a market for people who want to upgrade their DVD player for PQ, dont want to pay BD prices, and think that 1080p upconverters are not good enough, but the presumably more expensive(than other upconverters) 960P up converters are worth the cost.

The market is obvious, people who have a large collection of DVD and are not willing to replace them for BD. I can see people wanting better PQ with their DVDs for a player upgrade. Hell even BD expects people to upgrade through 3 Profile changes with very expensive BD players.

...Angelo

The market is obvious, people who have a large collection of DVD and are not willing to replace them for BD. I can see people wanting better PQ with their DVDs for a player upgrade. Hell even BD expects people to upgrade through 3 Profile changes with very expensive BD players.

...Angelo

Like he said, the market is actually smaller than that, because the people who don't want to upgrade to BD already have an option in a 1080i/p upscaling DVD player. This market is going to be the gap between people who currently don't think 1080i/p upscaling is good enough and that blu ray isn't worth it. I'd imagine that's a pretty small number.

The market is obvious, people who have a large collection of DVD and are not willing to replace them for BD. I can see people wanting better PQ with their DVDs for a player upgrade. Hell even BD expects people to upgrade through 3 Profile changes with very expensive BD players.

...Angelo

If that's what they want, then why not upgrade to Blu-ray or wait for a Blu-ray player that superconverts their DVD's?

I don't understand why you would pay ($150-$200?) to buy another DVD player? These new DVD players cannot play Blu-rays, but a Blu-ray player can do both, so why limit yourself?

Like he said, the market is actually smaller than that, because the people who don't want to upgrade to BD already have an option in a 1080i/p upscaling DVD player. This market is going to be the gap between people who currently don't think 1080i/p upscaling is good enough and that blu ray isn't worth it. I'd imagine that's a pretty small number.

If Super Convert shows or J6P sees the difference from the standard up-converters, I can see them springing up the cash for one and continue with his/her $10 DVD collection.

...Angelo

If Super Convert shows or J6P sees the difference from the standard up-converters, I can see them springing up the cash for one and continue with his/her $10 DVD collection.

...Angelo

If J6P can't tell the difference between 1080i upconverts and HD DVD or Blu ray then how are they going to tell the difference between 1080i upconverts and something that's less than HD DVD or Blu ray?

so you are really asking why would anyone buy a 960p upconverting DVD player vs 1080p upconverting DVD player?

Is the technology better for the 960p? Picture quality? price?

How much is 960x2 ? ;)

Actually it's an overlay technique so every frame will be processed more than once.

If J6P can't tell the difference between 1080i upconverts and HD DVD or Blu ray then how are they going to tell the difference between 1080i upconverts and something that's less than HD DVD or Blu ray?

I didn't say that. But if you believe there is no difference, which haven't seen, you've already closed your mind to the idea.

I've had my A1 for almost 2 years which produced an excellent DVD up-convert at the time. With over 100 HDM I wanted another HD DVD player and bought the XA2 and to my surprise the XA2 produced an even better DVD up-convert then my A1 in 1080i mode. So I bought another "new" XA2, I should get it by March 11 it's on delivery.

So my point is how can you pass judgment on Super-Convert if you have not seen it? Myself I didn't expect the XA2 to produce a better picture than my A1 in 1080i mode.

...Angelo

I didn't say that. But if you believe there is no difference, which haven't seen, you've already closed your mind to the idea.

I've had my A1 for almost 2 years which produced an excellent DVD up-convert at the time. With over 100 HDM I wanted another HD DVD player and bought the XA2 and to my surprise the XA2 produced an even better DVD up-convert then my A1 in 1080i mode. So I bought another "new" XA2, I should get it by March 11 it's on delivery.

So my point is how can you pass judgment on Super-Convert if you have not seen it? Myself I didn't expect the XA2 to produce a better picture than my A1 in 1080i mode.

...Angelo

but haven't you said specifically that there's not a big enough difference between 1080 on your XA2 and Blu ray? If someone like yourself doesn't see a big enough improvement over upconverted 1080 SD DVDs to purchase BD with it's better picture and equal or better extras than what is available on DVD then why would J6P spend $$$ on something that is in between what is currently available?

According to NPD Group, the average DVD owner now has 80 DVD's in his collection. To replace those with BD will cost around $1600 which is a fair piece of change (and PLEASE don't tell me about BOGO's and such - BB is still the #1 seller of HDM movies)

Think about those with collections far greater; 200, 400, 800 and up. The money starts to skyrocket. Plus look at the title selection. 82,000 versus 1000. Sony just announced 100 BD titles for all of 2008. They release over 100 DVD titles each month - about 1500 per year now.

Money is tight right now . . . REAL TIGHT. And if people see an alternative that increases their viewing pleasure for what they have for a few hundred dollars versus having to buy new discs for higher prices than DVD . . . think they will check it out? They sure jumped on the UP DVD bandwagon fast enough. They still sell over 1 million DVD players in the USA alone . . . every month . . . month in and month out. Not all are UP DVD players but many are.

And once again SR like UP DVD offers an alternative - a cheaper alternative than HDM ever did because all it takes is a new player to breath new life into an existing collection . . . and to continue that collection until the next "big thing" comes along.

How do you compete with $5.00 and $7.50 priced DVD's?

but haven't you said specifically that there's not a big enough difference between 1080 on your XA2 and Blu ray? If someone like yourself doesn't see a big enough improvement over upconverted 1080 SD DVDs to purchase BD with it's better picture and equal or better extras than what is available on DVD then why would J6P spend $$$ on something that is in between what is currently available?

I can see the difference from an excellent HD DVD to an up-convert. The problem is not all HDM clearly shows this difference. For example there are re-mastered old films and then you have films that have that artistic element that do not show a BIG difference over HDM, it's there but very slight.

...Angelo

According to NPD Group, the average DVD owner now has 80 DVD's in his collection. To replace those with BD will cost around $1600 which is a fair piece of change (and PLEASE don't tell me about BOGO's and such - BB is still the #1 seller of HDM movies)

Think about those with collections far greater; 200, 400, 800 and up. The money starts to skyrocket. Plus look at the title selection. 82,000 versus 1000. Sony just announced 100 BD titles for all of 2008. They release over 100 DVD titles each month - about 1500 per year now.

Money is tight right now . . . REAL TIGHT. And if people see an alternative that increases their viewing pleasure for what they have for a few hundred dollars versus having to buy new discs for higher prices than DVD . . . think they will check it out? They sure jumped on the UP DVD bandwagon fast enough. They still sell over 1 million DVD players in the USA alone . . . every month . . . month in and month out. Not all are UP DVD players but many are.

And once again SR like UP DVD offers an alternative - a cheaper alternative than HDM every did because all it takes is a new player to breath new life into an existing collection . . . and to continue that collection until the mext "big thing" comes along.

How do you compete with $5.00 and $7.50 priced DVD's?

Again, where are all these people who don't think current 1080i/p upscaling is good enough and don't have an HD player?

I think you all should forget the concept of an (expensive) cell processor - and consider that this will probably only work with a fixed function chip. Think a variant of the HQV chips (Reon, Realta). They would need to get this done cheap and not market a new player class, but add this to their present class of HDMI machines.

They don't create a new class/'format', just increase their market share - a few months ahead of the competition.

All the points are moot, if Toshiba does indeed develop this player, they'll lose even more money. Trend in the last year or so has been releasing two versions by the studios to maximize profit from cash cow, SD DVD. You have a cheap version with movie only and another with extra features. Pricing of this full feature version is not much less than BRD. If the studio releases BRD version for the same price as full feature version now, game over.

Again, where are all these people who don't think current 1080i/p upscaling is good enough and don't have an HD player?

Where are they? Right in front of you - just not here at AVS. Over 2/3's of the USA does not have an HDTV yet. Prime candidates for SR, UP DVD or BD.

All the points are moot, if Toshiba does indeed develop this player, they'll lose even more money. Trend in the last year or so has been releasing two versions by the studios to maximize profit from cash cow, SD DVD. You have a cheap version with movie only and another with extra features. Pricing of this full feature version is not much less than BRD. If the studio releases BRD version for the same price as full feature version now, game over.

If . . . always if.

Where are they? Right in front of you - just not here at AVS. Over 2/3's of the USA does not have an HDTV yet. Prime candidates for SR, UP DVD or BD.

Wait, I thought that market was people who think SD is good enough and doesn't need/want upconverting and people who think 1080 upconverts are just fine. Where's this third group coming from again?

Wait, I thought that market was people who think SD is good enough and doesn't need/want upconverting and people who think 1080 upconverts are just fine. Where's this third group coming from again?

They are getting upconverting whether they like it or not or have you forgotton that ALL modern HDTV's are fixed resolution displays.

And the players don't exist yet. So we do not know if Toshiba will once again go it alone or will they not only license the technology but also sell Spurs/Cell processors to other CEM's who want to bring out SR players.

Every BD CEM also sells an UP DVD player . . . keep that in mind.

Where are they? Right in front of you - just not here at AVS. Over 2/3's of the USA does not have an HDTV yet. Prime candidates for SR, UP DVD or BD.

So these "Non-AVSers" want to upgrade their DVD players, are dissatisfied with the $50 1080i/1080p players, dont want to spend the money on a Blu Ray player(which upconverts DVDs BTW)... and see enough of a difference between 1080p upconverters and 960p upconverters to pay the added cost of the 960p converter that advertises less lines of resolution than $50 1080p converters?

I dont know if I would call these people "The Masses"

So these "Non-AVSers" want to upgrade their DVD players, are dissatisfied with the $50 1080i/1080p players, dont want to spend the money on a Blu Ray player(which upconverts DVDs BTW)... and see enough of a difference between 1080p upconverters and 960p upconverters to pay the added cost of the 960p converter that advertises less lines of resolution than $50 1080p converters?

I dont know if I would call these people "The Masses"

Of the million DVD players sold each month - how many do you think are UP DVD players? (I do not know nor can I find data)

They continue to sell about 1 million HDTV's per month.

Another way to look at it . . .

Every person that buys an UP DVD player . . . doesn't buy a BD player.

If the studio releases BRD version for the same price as full feature version now, game over.

Why would the studio do that? Because they want BD to win? Come on, the studios want profits, not to say "I picked a winner". Why would they improve their product above the current full-featured version and not charge more?

In addition, when the buying public learns that the "new better" disc won't work in the bedroom DVD player, won't work in their computers, won't work in their portable dvd players and so on, do you really think they will say "oh, I will buy the more expensive one that I can watch less?"

The strategy of degrading DVD's makes sense -- if the public can be moved to the higher priced format -- but that is highly risky while BD is a small niche market. So there may be studio ways to get to BD, but I doubt that it will be one that offers more for less.

So these "Non-AVSers" want to upgrade their DVD players, are dissatisfied with the $50 1080i/1080p players, dont want to spend the money on a Blu Ray player(which upconverts DVDs BTW)... and see enough of a difference between 1080p upconverters and 960p upconverters to pay the added cost of the 960p converter that advertises less lines of resolution than $50 1080p converters?

I dont know if I would call these people "The Masses"

^^^

The market is obvious, people who have a large collection of DVD and are not willing to replace them for BD.

If this is so obvious than why in the world did Toshiba waste half a bill or so with HD? Seems obvious when you are left with no other choice.

I am sorry but I am not buying this "super" upconvertion.
I am an avid photographer and these techniques while widely used in photography never give great results even for upping twice the resolution let alone increasing it 6 times.
Read any photgraphy forum and you will see that a good optical 1.4x Teleconverter (Canon, Nikon, Sony) is always better than upscaling image twice (1.4x teleconverter is equivalent to upping the resolution 2 since sqrt(2)~1.4). And this is regradless of the computational power (i.e. regardless of how much time you have to wait).
I have tried fractals, small and large steps, USM/sharpening the upsized image and so on and a good optical 1.4x teleconverter has being ALWAYS better than digitally zooming to twice the resolution. And the image stacking that some people think will make magic does nothing about the resolution of a well exposed image. I use stacking of a lot more (usually 30-60) frames in order to clean the noise and raise the s/n ratio in astrophotography but this will do nothing to an well exposed image and does not work very well on moving images - thats why despite image stacking in astronomy you still need precize tracking mechanism. On top of that when humans watch video their brain is already automatically "stacking" frames so for the static scenes there is nothing to gain from it while for motion scenes objects forms (film projections) are changin shape and can lead to nasty artifacts if you can not match precisly the objects from different frames. So please give me 2MP resolution (or even more - low grain APS-C film can easily show 5-6MP details when properly exposed and scanned) instead of whatever digital zoom you can implement and call it "super" whatever.
The only place where I think this will give good results will be on animated titles simply because it is alot easier to upsize images without a lot of micro details but then again why bother with something that may produce a bunch of artifacts when CGI can (and probably already is) simlpy be rendered at much higher target output resolution.

If that's what they want, then why not upgrade to Blu-ray or wait for a Blu-ray player that superconverts their DVD's?

I don't understand why you would pay ($150-$200?) to buy another DVD player? These new DVD players cannot play Blu-rays, but a Blu-ray player can do both, so why limit yourself?

cuz bd discs/players are more expensive.
a super-upscaling bd player could take xtra years.
if u got a huge dvd collection u wont be limiting yourself very much.

its all about the difference being worth the xtra $.

If J6P can't tell the difference between 1080i upconverts and HD DVD or Blu ray then how are they going to tell the difference between 1080i upconverts and something that's less than HD DVD or Blu ray?

not that i disagree, but how do 'we' 'know' that j6p cant tell the difference:confused:?
is that written in stone somewhere? i may have missed it.:eek:
im sure some can and others cant tell the diff. but what percentage of each? (rhetorical-unless someone actually knows)

If this is so obvious than why in the world did Toshiba waste half a bill or so with HD? Seems obvious when you are left with no other choice.

Because it took them that long to realize HD DVD was going to be a money pit. Get out, cut your losses and implement plan B. Thats what good businesses do and this might be the beginning of it but that doesn't mean you have to buy one of their products.

With tech like this who needs pixar? :D

---Quote (Originally by eganov)---
If this is so obvious than why in the world did Toshiba waste half a
bill or so with HD? Seems obvious when you are left with no other
choice.
---End Quote---
Toshiba has had HD DVD in the market for 2 years now and between HD and
BD, HD had the best chance to go against DVD, IMO. It was studio
support that cause Toshiba to drop the HDM format. Even today HD DVD offers
better specs from day one or 2 years ago. Warner was a big backer of HD
DVD with many exclusives or feature rich HDM then the BD counter part.
I guess anyone has a price tag to switch.

...Angelo

Yes, but we don't need to go over the price Paramount was paid to go red as they are coming back now anyways :D

Blu-ray had better specs from day one for what I (home theater enthusiasts not an extra's enthusiasts personally) care about. Sound like PIP blu-ray while behind in the begin has passed up the completed specs of HD DVD as well, so extra fans should be happy about that.

Here is some more info on SR from CES 2008 which includes split screen pictures:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/toshiba-cell-broadband-video-processor

From the Toshiba PR for CES 2008:

Super-resolution
Image super-resolution creates high definition (HD) video from standard definition (SD) video, for instance video library recorded so far, by enhancing pixel resolution.

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2008_01/pr0701.htm

So what does "enhancing pixel resolution" actually mean? How does it differ than current upconversion?

It is fabbed in a Toshiba fab now. IBM, Toshiba and Sony co-developed it in Austin Texas.

For the record, it's fabbed by Sony still until ownership transfers in April; even then, the manufacturing will be managed by a joint-venture between the two companies. And the 45nm Cell to go into the PS3 will come from IBM's Fishkill plant (as the 90nm Cell did), where Sony has a capital interest in the lines.

Now... why people point out that Toshiba will soon own the Sony Nagasaki SOI line as some sort of 'gotcha' or something I don't understand to begin with honestly. SCE and Toshiba are longtime semiconductor partners. Anyway it's worth mentioning that the SpursEngine going into these DVD players is fabbed at another plant altogether, and doesn't rely on the SOI process.

To the topic itself, I'm quite excited about this. It's true that upconversion will not add detail inherently absent from the source, but if the cost of ownership is low enough, it would certainly offer a superior DVD player choice for the average customer. On top of that, it would help to proliferate the Cell architecture in the CE - and specifically imaging - space, where it has a lot of potential. The Toshiba TV sets that are set to come out later this year making use of the chip are a very natural fit as well, as they introduce the upscaling/smoothing to SD broadcasts (and likely 720p signals), the former being notoriously bad looking on high-def sets.

Now, unfortunately the problem for Toshiba in the set integration will be a marketing reliance on the legacy SD broadcasts, which I imagine will diminish in market share as time goes on. But that's a conversation for later this year...

ok so after spending billions developing hvdvdv to only loose the HD war, suddenly HD becomes irrelevant to toshiba????....I'd be pissed if i were a hvdvdv early adopter...

The Super Resolution(aka Super Upconversion) output is truely 960p, and journalists who have seen the demo at trade shows like CEDEC and CES vouched that it really worked. Previously, Super Upconversion was scheduled to appear on Sharp and Toshiba HDTV sets only, but the death of HD-DVD changed all that it is now confirmed that Super Upconversion will come to DVD players as well.

Well, there goes the last reason to buy HD-DVD players as upconverting players, no reason to buy them any longer as they do not have the cell processor for Super Upconversion. Sounds like another good reason to invest in a PS3...

The cool part about this method of upscaling is that the PS3 could be firmware upgraded to provide it. It would be amusing if Sony beat Toshiba to market with this technology.

Great! Now we have one more topic to fight with each other in this forum...:rolleyes:

The cool part about this method of upscaling is that the PS3 could be firmware upgraded to provide it. It would be amusing if Sony beat Toshiba to market with this technology.

The PS3 already has a 960P upconverted DVD output.

If Sony were already using this method and achieving the claimed results, Toshiba wouldn't have anything to brag about.

I keep reading articles and posts where the writers insist that "most Americans can't tell the difference" between true high definition and SD. And to a lesser extent, I've read numerous statements attesting to the "fact" that the best upconverted content is virtually indistinguishable from true high definition. I am quite sure that both statements have some merit, but they're nothing but generalizations. The best scalers CAN produce images that rival true HD content, but at what price? Certainly not a price point that most people can afford (unless we're talking OPPO here). And without exception, every single time I've witnessed shoppers viewing Blu-ray or HD-DVD content (often on screens as small as 46") they've commented about how "sharp", "lifelike", "real" or "3D" the images appeared. This is the very same reaction I've noted over the years in regards to HDTV in general....viewers are awed 90% of the time when watching a good source. In fact, I've never heard anyone utter "Oh, it looks just like my TV at home!" unless they happen to have a much better setup (and when that is the case they cannot stop talking to others about their gear). Price is always an issue, with the typical comment being, "I will wait until the price goes down." And most people simply don't understand the technology....the terms and acronyms mean absolutely nothing to them, and this is probably one reason the surveys and polls seem to reflect such "unsophistication" on the part of those commonly referred to as J6P.

Personally, I find it insulting that anyone in the media would make such blanket statements about consumers. Perhaps if live testing could be done, instead of just asking people to complete written surveys, we would have a more realistic picture (no pun intended) of the impact of hidef on the masses.

If this "new" technology is going to truly make any money for Toshiba, they've got to do what the big boys do not only better, but a whole damn lot cheaper. Because as it stands right now, the only advantage this technology has is that it will be less expensive than Blu-ray. Being able to upconvert your SD DVDs is something both HDM platforms already do, so not having to repurchase your entire DVD collection is not even worth writing about. The high-end equipment so many of us own (or covet) is quite capable of giving HDM a run for its money, but the quality of the source is still a limiting factor. And the last time I checked, this type of equipment is not exactly flying off the shelves at your local Target or Walmart, if they're there at all to be found. So when Coby comes out with an upconverting DVD player with a Realta chip, please PM me. I'll gladly replace my Denon at that time. As for Toshiba....well, I'm bitterly disappointed to learn this is where they're headed. They're capable of so much more that I cannot see this as anything other than an act of desperation on their part.

Another instance where Toshiba is misjudging the market. It's not what is good for the consumers, it's what makes money for the studios.

Studio: Great, you got a product that will make people never buy another DVD? Thanks, don't call us, we'll call you.

If . . . always if.
Point is, there is not a lot of price difference between BRD and Special Edition SD DVDs. I predict premium on BRD will disappear by the end of year by at least one studio.

If the Toshiba cell upconverter works as well as some think, and if it is affordable as expected, then BR will have a very hard time selling itself to J6P, who will jump at a cheap way to watch all his DVDs in near HD. Affordable here means under $100, which is reasonable considering current upconvert DVD players can be had for $50 or less. Sony may have shot themselves in the foot helping Toshiba develop this technology! No wonder the folks at Toshiba are taking the HDM format loss so well!

I think true HD media will be preferred by all of us here at AVS, no question.

But I also think everyone here would welcome something that makes our SD DVD look that much better.

IF this tech arrives as advertised and makes SD DVD look that much better, HDM will have an even more difficult road ahead because most people don't share anywhere near the interest in AV quality as we at AVS.

They may even see this superupconversion as superfluous. They certainly won't be rushing out to buy HD media if they can get much better quality fronm their existing library.

worth a chuckle it was.

the ps3 cell processor, isnt that the one made by..............toshiba?

Yes.

-Robert

Another instance where Toshiba is misjudging the market. It's not what is good for the consumers, it's what makes money for the studios.

Studio: Great, you got a product that will make people never buy another DVD? Thanks, don't call us, we'll call you.

Not sure I understand why you feel this way.

Let's say Toshiba comes up with a DVD player with Super-up-conversion SD DVD performance. In no way would this negatively effect SD DVD sales, in fact it would be the single best sales boost since the optical disc invention itself. Many more SD DVDs titles would sell and studios would love Toshiba to develop this advanced low cost high quality SD DVD player.

BD is still slow to take any large market share as the software and hardware are way to expensive for the mass market. BD is still an video/audio enthusiasts product.

-Robert

Point is, there is not a lot of price difference between BRD and Special Edition SD DVDs. I predict premium on BRD will disappear by the end of year by at least one studio.

But there are two types of DVD's; SE and plain vanilla. And there is no data of any kind that will tell us how many of each are sold when there is a choice. Sometimes it is a PV only - and sometimes it's an SE only.

You may be right. Then again you may be wrong. That's the thing about the future - unknown.;)

Another ironic twist I can see for this development, is that this could simply provide impetus for dvd producers to scale back the pq even further (greater compression), and just release everything on single layer dvd discs (for maximum media economy).

Another ironic twist I can see for this development, is that this could simply provide impetus for dvd producers to scale back the pq even further (greater compression), and just release everything on single layer dvd discs (for maximum media economy).

:confused::confused::confused:

They are going to screw around with a $22 BILLION market . . . to help a $750 million market?

Wait a minute . . . nope . . . no pigs flying outside my window:rolleyes:

No, the motive has nothing to do with a $750 M market. They are simply "optimizing" costs on the $22 B market to keep it lucrative for just that much longer. The production focus of dvd releases will emphasize economy at every stage of the process from mastering to encoding to media to packaging. Perhaps, the only part that will remain much the same as current standards would be the marketing.

Native dvd pq will be pretty shoddy, but for the very bottom tier of users, they won't care or perhaps even see the difference on their 27" crt (which is on its last legs, but hanging in there).

Then there will be the meat of the dvd crowd who pick up one of these super-upsampling players. The benefits of the fancier processing will end up a wash- the dvd's got worse, but the processing restored it for the most part. It will end up looking decent, and these kinds of customers will be none the wiser that dvd pq has even changed on their sub-30" flat panels.

Then there will be the video enthusiast crowd, who want the utmost quality that is currently available. They see where dvd quality is headed. The line is clearly drawn in the sand. They will be buying genuine hdm products and hardware.

It's just my prediction. All bets are off if a metal endoskeleton cyborg from the future is sent to pre-2005 to foil the the technology timeline.

No, the motive has nothing to do with a $750 M market. They are simply "optimizing" costs on the $22 B market to keep it lucrative for just that much longer. The production focus of dvd releases will emphasize economy at every stage of the process from mastering to encoding to media to packaging. Perhaps, the only part that will remain much the same as current standards would be the marketing.

Native dvd pq will be pretty shoddy, but for the very bottom tier of users, they won't care or perhaps even see the difference on their 27" crt (which is on its last legs, but hanging in there).

Then there will be the meat of the dvd crowd who pick up one of these super-upsampling players. The benefits of the fancier processing will end up a wash- the dvd's got worse, but the processing restored it for the most part. It will end up looking decent, and these kinds of customers will be none the wiser that dvd pq has even changed on their sub-30" flat panels.

Then there will be the video enthusiast crowd, who want the utmost quality that is currently available. They see where dvd quality is headed. The line is clearly drawn in the sand. They will be buying genuine hdm products and hardware.

It's just my prediction. All bets are off if a metal endoskeleton cyborg from the future is sent to pre-2005 to foil the the technology timeline.

You are willing to bet this is going to happen? By when and how much are you willing to bet?

No need for me to bet, anything. I am just throwing it out there, along with all of the other armchair theories floating around in this topic. ;) I'm allowed to indulge in it, too, aren't I? :D (...and it's plain silly to bet against a hypothetical skynet screwing with the timeline- isn't it even mentioned in the bible or something?)

Honestly, folks, I don't see anything here except that Toshiba's trying to move its cell processors into the CE market.

Right now, the best selling and performing BD player uses what? A cell processor. And now the best SD upscaling uses what? A cell processor.

Want Toshiba's technology? Use their chips.

BD may have won the war, but if most BD SALs wind up using Toshiba cell processors because they need to offer PS3-type speed and this superior SD upconversion that blows Reon away, that's one hell of a consolation prize.

I mean, is anyone here really going to complain if cell processor-powered BD SALs become the norm? Please. So Toshiba winds up getting a check for every HDM AND SD player sold with its technology - which basically is what it wanted in the first place. More power to them if they can pull it off.

No need for me to bet, anything. I am just throwing it out there, along with all of the other armchair theories floating around in this topic. ;) I'm allowed to indulge in it, too, aren't I? :D (...and it's plain silly to bet against a hypothetical skynet screwing with the timeline- isn't it even mentioned in the bible or something?)

Oh . . OK . . call me when you land on Earth:D

Honestly, folks, I don't see anything here except that Toshiba's trying to move its cell processors into the CE market.

Right now, the best selling and performing BD player uses what? A cell processor. And now the best SD upscaling uses what? A cell processor.

Want Toshiba's technology? Use their chips.

BD may have won the war, but if most BD SALs wind up using Toshiba cell processors because they need to offer PS3-type speed and this superior SD upconversion that blows Reon away, that's one hell of a consolation prize.

I mean, is anyone here really going to complain if cell processor-powered BD SALs become the norm? Please. So Toshiba winds up getting a check for every HDM AND SD player sold with its technology - which basically is what it wanted in the first place. More power to them if they can pull it off.

Sigma
Broadcom
Panasonic
Sti

Just to name a few who might complain;)

:D:D

You guys can be as smarmy as you want about this, but I all comes down to just how picky the buying public is going to be. If they already aren't sure they think they see enough difference between SD upscailed and HD, what do you think a far greater fogging of that line is going to do?


Worrying about Joe Six Pack is mental masturbation. The real thing is far more gratifying! :D

Seriously though, I can't control the average Joe's opinion. Hell, I can rarely convince him that OAR is better than PAN & SCAN. Joe will do what he wants, and the market will react as it will, which may or may not have an adverse impact on what products are available to me as a consumer. So yeah, all that's true. But whatever. Wasting time thinking about that seems like a pretty lame way to spend an evening.

And it certainly doesn't hamper my ability to be "smarmy."

In other words, whether or not the CEO of Toshiba is spewing BS (which of course he is) or is speaking the absolute truth is the thing that I'm being "smarmy" about, not the response of said spin upon the market, which will be what it will be.

Here - for all you "hawk eyed" critics . . .

Which image is the native HD and which is the Cell processed?

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/image_preview1.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/image_preview.jpg

worth a chuckle it was.

the ps3 cell processor, isnt that the one made by..............toshiba?

It is actually a joint venture developed and made by IBM, Sony and Toshiba.

Here - for all you "hawk eyed" critics . . .

Which image is the native HD and which is the Cell processed?

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/image_preview1.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/image_preview.jpg

Neither of those images is HD. Those are both seriously downrezzed and would look equally craptastic if I blew them up to the size of my monitor.

Not sure I understand why you feel this way.

Let's say Toshiba comes up with a DVD player with Super-up-conversion SD DVD performance. In no way would this negatively effect SD DVD sales, in fact it would be the single best sales boost since the optical disc invention itself. Many more SD DVDs titles would sell and studios would love Toshiba to develop this advanced low cost high quality SD DVD player.

BD is still slow to take any large market share as the software and hardware are way to expensive for the mass market. BD is still an video/audio enthusiasts product.

-Robert

im thinking the poster you're replying to made a typo in that he said folks wouldnt buy any more dvds. i think he meant to say folks wouldnt buy any more bdm.
i may be wrong. and maybe its none of my beeswax!

Here - for all you "hawk eyed" critics . . .

Which image is the native HD and which is the Cell processed?

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/image_preview1.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/image_preview.jpg

I'll bite...
At that size I can't say one is HD and one isn't, but the images on the right look to have more detail, at first glance.

No, the motive has nothing to do with a $750 M market. They are simply "optimizing" costs on the $22 B market to keep it lucrative for just that much longer. The production focus of dvd releases will emphasize economy at every stage of the process from mastering to encoding to media to packaging. Perhaps, the only part that will remain much the same as current standards would be the marketing.

Native dvd pq will be pretty shoddy, but for the very bottom tier of users, they won't care or perhaps even see the difference on their 27" crt (which is on its last legs, but hanging in there).

Then there will be the meat of the dvd crowd who pick up one of these super-upsampling players. The benefits of the fancier processing will end up a wash- the dvd's got worse, but the processing restored it for the most part. It will end up looking decent, and these kinds of customers will be none the wiser that dvd pq has even changed on their sub-30" flat panels.

Then there will be the video enthusiast crowd, who want the utmost quality that is currently available. They see where dvd quality is headed. The line is clearly drawn in the sand. They will be buying genuine hdm products and hardware.

It's just my prediction. All bets are off if a metal endoskeleton cyborg from the future is sent to pre-2005 to foil the the technology timeline.

good lord, a real doomsday scenario!:eek:

Processing deep space low bitrate transmissions to improve the detail is nothing new. I don't see how this is useful for earth bound three dimensional movie photography with controlled depth of field used by the director for their artistic displays.

960p requires that each tri color pixel becomes 4 sets of tri color pixels. How is the processor going to know which portions of the image requires more detail and which need to remain soft?

The original 480x640 8 bit 4/3 image (I know the standard uses 720/480 which is 15/10 but I'm just trying to be conservative) requires 480x640x(8+8+8)x24 = 176 Mbps. This is reduced to about 6 Mbps for a compression ratio of 29:1. It may sound good but IMO it won't satisfy anyone on this forum.

The cool part about this method of upscaling is that the PS3 could be firmware upgraded to provide it. It would be amusing if Sony beat Toshiba to market with this technology.

It's the algorithm where the differentiation occurs. If you follow the progress of the architecture through the last couple of years, you'll notice that it's been Toshiba that's been perfecting the CE-related imaging apps... the multitude of HD streams displayed at once, the super upconversion, the 'magic mirror' application... so although the hardware is the same (not exactly but you know), I do think that Toshiba has a present edge in terms of the software algorithms they have running on Cell for the purpose of upconversion. Sony could of course match it with effort, and we see that PS3's DVD upscaling is itself done through Cell and very decent, but it would be wrong to sell short the algorithmic advantage that Toshiba does seemingly have at the present time. One can tell that they've been eying this purpose for quite some time.