Title says it all.
Have you ever meet with an installer or talked to a dealer who with confidence pitched you a line that you knew was incorrect. In the end you knew you know more then he.

Lets hear it:)


Ill start. If your dealer/installer tells you the following stay away:)

1. You will not like the Sharp 20k Ive had several with bad convergence.
Thats why I only sell brand X.

2. A good disc I use to ck for checking chroma delay is To Kill a Mockingbird.

It will be out in two more weeks.

Even worse if its already out.

You just can't beat Runco.

These Monster cables will make a big difference.

He tells you the projector on display has great colors "like a big giant plasma" while he's playing Cars on SD-DVD.

He asks you if you like surround sound.

You mention AVS or Widescreen Review and he says "who?"

He says "I've never heard of Triad but Bose is one of the best".

While showing you a plasma and audio system he says "I want to get one of these for my bedroom but my Mom doesn't like the TV too loud".

He say's he doesn't know :confused: because he normally works in the camera department.

He tells you he has to check with Jason first :eek: :eek: :eek:


:D

This is an all timer.

Just this weekend my son in law was having problems getting his new PS3 to work with his Sharp 12K. He calls Sony support and the rep tells him the reason is because the Playstation doesn't work with projectors, on top of that the rep also claimed that the PS3 could permanently damage the PJ.

this thread is gonna be huge.

Told to me a few years ago, when DLP and LCOS already had a substantial market presence: "There's basically two kinds of front projectors, LCD and CRT." When I mentioned the others, it was clear he had not heard of them.

I once went into a Best Buy to purchases a DTV HD receiver. I was having a HT party that afternoon and the DTV box fried in the morning.

While I was waiting for my sale to be rung up by my salesman, a second salesman approached with a Monster Cable DVI cable in his hand and told me I would need one of these.

I said why?

He said because a DVI cable was not included in the DTV carton.

I said it wasn't included because I didn't need one.

My projector was a Electrohome 9500LC which had no digital inputs. But he diudn't know that at the time.

He asked me what I had. I said if I told him what I had he would have no clue as to what it was.

He then proceeded to tell me he was a video expert and that I would never know as much as he did.

I lost it. I told him he was an ahole and a lousy salesman to boot. He yelled for his manager, said I called him an ahole, and I was bodily pushed out of the store, I fought my way back to get my Amex card back from the first salesman who was ringing my sale up.

I went accross the street to Circuit City and made my purchase without incidence.

Correct sales technique would have been to compliment me on my purchase and then ask what kind of display I was going to hook it up to, I would have answered. Then he would have asked did it have any digiital inputs. I would have said no. That would have ended it. If I said yes, then he should have said you are probably going to need a DVI cable because one wasn't included in the box. If I in fact neeeded, he would have added value by saving me a trip back to the store to get what I needed.

I made the mistake of telling my local dealer that I was a member of the AVS forum. He informed me that the forum is full of guys with more money than brains that spend too much time critiquing the images instead of enjoying the movies; And that I should just purchase the Runco CL420 (720p) for $5,000 because it is simply the best projector there is less than 5K. This was in the last year.

I don't respect anything he has to say now :)

its not always what they say but often just the way they say it or the attitude they have. i worked for a short time (3 months or so) in AV sales at a high end audio shop. I always tried to be as friendly as possible...it didnt always help me get my commission but i had loyal customers (even during such a short period) and at the same time i had the most fun i've ever had at a job. yes i had rude customers or the customers who picked your brain for hours and then would go and buy elsewhere just to save a few dollars (one guy came into the store daily for about 2 weeks listening to various amplifiers. then one day he comes in to ask about connection advice for an amp he bought elsewhere which he could have bought from us because we were an authorized dealer...but he saved $50 dollars by going somewhere else....yes $50 on an amp that cost something like $3500) anyways i always felt i would buy locally after i left the store because i knew what it was like to be "shopped" online...but now i'm not so sure anymore... i'm currently in the market for a new projector for my parents dedicated HT i have about $3-4k for a budget so i went out this past weekend to get a feel for whats out there. i've read so much about so many projectors but i will not buy without actually seeing them first hand. the first place i went to the guy actually laughed at me when i mentioned my budget and that i was interested in the Epson UB. he called it a "presentation grade" projector and actually had the audacity to tell me that i should think about buying a $12k SIM2...does he honestly believe that i would just suddenly triple my budget? and that i would actually buy something from him after he laughed in my face? and that was just the first place i went...out of 4 different shops i found 1 that had a person i would actually do business with...the problem is that they are not authorized dealers for everything...thankfully they are epson dealers and will probably have the 1080UB on display by the end of the month... the problem is that for some brands these other dealers are the only game in town...i understand the need for authorized dealers but what if the dealer is a jerk and you dont want to purchase from them...the only option left is to find another dealer (sometimes in another city/state) i dunno...guess i'm just feeling a little jaded right now...

Well, still remember standing in Best Buy and hearing the teenage sales geek explaining to someone who was looking at a CRT TV that a 3-comb filter was better than a single comb filter because "it's like having a finer comb to comb your hair with versus one with big teeth except it is combing the image".

"Everybody pays sticker!"

TI has fixed the rainbow problem :)

its not always what they say but often just the way they say it or the attitude they have. i worked for a short time (3 months or so) in AV sales at a high end audio shop. I always tried to be as friendly as possible...it didnt always help me get my commission but i had loyal customers (even during such a short period) and at the same time i had the most fun i've ever had at a job. yes i had rude customers or the customers who picked your brain for hours and then would go and buy elsewhere just to save a few dollars (one guy came into the store daily for about 2 weeks listening to various amplifiers. then one day he comes in to ask about connection advice for an amp he bought elsewhere which he could have bought from us because we were an authorized dealer...but he saved $50 dollars by going somewhere else....yes $50 on an amp that cost something like $3500) anyways i always felt i would buy locally after i left the store because i knew what it was like to be "shopped" online...but now i'm not so sure anymore... i'm currently in the market for a new projector for my parents dedicated HT i have about $3-4k for a budget so i went out this past weekend to get a feel for whats out there. i've read so much about so many projectors but i will not buy without actually seeing them first hand. the first place i went to the guy actually laughed at me when i mentioned my budget and that i was interested in the Epson UB. he called it a "presentation grade" projector and actually had the audacity to tell me that i should think about buying a $12k SIM2...does he honestly believe that i would just suddenly triple my budget? and that i would actually buy something from him after he laughed in my face? and that was just the first place i went...out of 4 different shops i found 1 that had a person i would actually do business with...the problem is that they are not authorized dealers for everything...thankfully they are epson dealers and will probably have the 1080UB on display by the end of the month... the problem is that for some brands these other dealers are the only game in town...i understand the need for authorized dealers but what if the dealer is a jerk and you dont want to purchase from them...the only option left is to find another dealer (sometimes in another city/state) i dunno...guess i'm just feeling a little jaded right now...


Nothing worse than asswipe AV dudes. You've heard of AVS customer service, now watch those mofo's in action............shocking!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13284767#post13284767

"You need to purchase a 1080p TV or projector because the cable and sat. companies are not going to support 720p in the near future" - Best Buy Sales Rep

Magnolia salesman telling me confidently that no one makes a multichannel amplifier; you can only buy two-channel amplifiers. This was 9 months ago.

Another dealer telling me that the Epson LCD projectors are as good or better than all the other LCD projectors on the market, since Epson makes the LCD panels that everyone else uses, anyway. Now, I have nothing against Epson projectors, but things like, oh, optics, video processors, etc. also have a determination in the quality of a projector. One guess what brand of projectors he sold.

One guess what brand of projectors he sold.


:mad:Damn Sony dealers.

A guy selling high end projectors told me we can only see 200:1 contrast, and that higher numbers were basically a lie. He then went onto explain to me that the high end projectors we were looking at in his demo room were so good because of their 'dynamic range'. When I asked him what he meant by that, he didn't know.... When trying to determine if it was actually contrast ratio and not image brightness, he kinda admitted it must be the contrast. Yet if we can only see 200:1 wasn't the dynamic range advantage a contradiction?

He was full of sales pitch without actually knowing what he was talking about. He also mentioned that the high end projector manufacturer measure their projectors in the same way commercial theaters do, yet didn't know what those measures were or what the ANSI contrast test was, or what foot lamberts were when I mentioned them.

He mentioned he had $500,000 installs to deal with which I found quite scary considering he didn't appear to know much about projectors other than the sales pitch he had picked up from the manufacturer

I wouldn't let this person install a projection system in my place even if it was for free, yet some people were (apparently) paying him $500,000 to install stuff in their home. How scary is that?

Gary

The ones that offers only component cable and refuse to even conceder HDMI's

And what about the ones that try to sell you a HDDVD player. HAHAHA

"You can't get off the air HDTV up here. The signal is very weak and the picture will be snowy"

"These Acme HDMI cables have the lowest grain and provide the most vivid colors"

A salesman hawking the Vutech Silver Star as the perfect screen, Hi Ya Tryg, or the Da-lite Hi Power. screens aren't like condoms, one size does not fit all.

Great timing for this thread. I had one of these experiences the other day. I contacted a local dealer about the Marantz 15S1 projector. They are a Runco dealer as well. I mentioned that I was going to do a Constant Height setup. He latched on to this and said well the Runco is the only way to go. It has several anamorphic lens options available for a 2.35 setup. I mentioned to him that I had the Panamorph UH380 he said quote "that's not a true anamorphic lens, Runco is the only true anamorphic lens available."

Someone better tell Shawn Kelley, Ansi and CAVX to close up shop. They are selling pretend lenses. Oh and also forget those forgeries such as ISCO as well.

Great timing for this thread. I had one of these experiences the other day. I contacted a local dealer about the Marantz 15S1 projector. They are a Runco dealer as well. I mentioned that I was going to do a Constant Height setup. He latched on to this and said well the Runco is the only way to go. It has several anamorphic lens options available for a 2.35 setup. I mentioned to him that I had the Panamorph UH380 he said quote "that's not a true anamorphic lens, Runco is the only true anamorphic lens available."

Someone better tell Shawn Kelley, Ansi and CAVX to close up shop. They are selling pretend lenses. Oh and also forget those forgeries such as ISCO as well.

Lets give this one some credit here, Runco was the first to come out with CH

"No you cant have cost and free shipping."

[Best Buy Sales person]
He then proceeded to tell me he was a video expert and that I would never know as much as he did.


Very simple response needed: "Then why are you working for Best Buy!":p:p:p

A dealer once spent five minutes telling a mate and me that he had all sorts of certificates for ISF, installation, acoustic design etc etc, and then walked us into the main demo room to listen to B&W 800Ds .... which were sitting about 2 feet from bare brick side walls which ran the entire length of the listening room. Ughhh !!

Me: 'Can you fire up the projector please?'

Dealer: 'No'

"They use very saturated colors in an expanded gamut to set the color gamut standard of the future."

:eek:

"The image is very film like", to justify or describe softness.

Having just seen my first private 35mm setup with mint condition film, softness is not a word id use at all. Razor sharp. WOW, how different to the cinema.

Thanks for the info Alan. A new chapter becons.

I once had a smurf (best buy blue-shirt) categorically insist that SACD was "Sony Audio CD."

The biggest scams that I hear over and over again are the ones selling cables. I can't count the number of times that salespeople in the big box stores have pushed overpried cables on customers telling them that they were necessary to get a good HD picture.

The other issue that I have observed often is that salespeople often confuse customers with HDMI upscailing units making them think they are getting HD machines.

"If you want your OTA channels in color your going to want this outside antenna with the different colored elements."

When I was first getting in to this hobby, I did a lot of research and had a list of projectors that I was interested in seeing. Silly me thought that I could just go to a dealer and many of these would be on display.

When I paid a visit to a local dealer, I was informed that all of the projectors on my list were rubbish and that he did not deal in them, even assuming that I wanted to see them.

He showed me to a demo room where a projector was showing a Harry Potter Movie. A night scene was playing and it look all grey and washed out.

I told the guy that it looked washed out.

He assured me that I was mistaken and that it looked great. Apparently I just didn't know what to look for.

People make fun of places like Best Buy, but at least they have a huge selection of products to choose from. Local dealers just steer you to whatever products they happen to deal in and/or those that afford them the quickest buck. You can just say "no" to the cables. No one makes you buy them.

In this hobby we are kind of forced in to an antiquated distribution channel that does not benefit consumers at all. It is hard to comparison shop or to negotiate on price. This is changing, but many dinosaurs don't want it to. We all have to be thankful to AVS for this forum and for the great services that they offer.

This is a great thread because I've given up on finding anyone who is competent at BB, CC or Fry's. You need to know what you want before you go in there.

Ask about SACD at any of these stores and you'll get a blank stare. And that's if you can drag the salesperson away from playing on a PS3.

Marcus

best buy and circuit city are dealers? :)

two things that struck me as odd with recent dealings with my local dealer.

1. In Wall Speakers are the way to go. 90% of what we sell are in walls (Paradigm) ?
2. His response to pricing questions resulted in MSRP quotes for everything.

later.

"All serious home theaters use CRT projectors"

TA

Me: 'Can you fire up the projector please?'

Dealer: 'No'

I would've given that guy a wedgie...I freaking hate that.

Its like the industry is trying to keep projectors a secret...in fact, I had a salesman at a local Best Buy tell me "we try to keep the projectors off as they're in the room with very high end LCDs". Nice. But, a Magnolia manager in New Orleans and I had about a 90 minute conversation about pjs (he owned the Black Pearl as that's what they carried and he got a discount on) and he described, in painful detail, his DIY projector lift, DIY system automation and controls and he had two seperate screens ceiling recessed (one for day, one for night) and this guy was telling me how he cut the drywall holes too big and had to tape and float the edges to give it that custom look...guy was probably the most knowledgable salesman I've ever encountered and that includes many high end AV shops. I even got some pointers about how to construct a pj lift and how to run the actuators/motor to the relay to the switch and power...even though he KNEW I wasn't going to buy from him, he even told me the websites to buy parts at (not BB)...guy was freaking Yoda as far as salesmen go. If you live in New Orleans I highly recommend the BB/Magnolia out by the airport, young kid, I think his name was Chris. I asked him if he knew about AVSForum and he said he was vaguely fimilar, man...we should try and draft this guy or something...

"We're sorry. But the number you just dialed has been disconnected"

"Do you ship to the uk?"
"no"
:(

"They use very saturated colors in an expanded gamut to set the color gamut standard of the future."
:eek:

I remember something funny, Booby..

"The Panosonic AX100 projector is no good for Home Theater". The reasoning was something like this, "it huffs and chuffs" :).

You need a 1080P compliant cable.

I hope this isn't too subtle, but a dealers surname can sometimes be a warning sign.:D:D:D

I hope this isn't too subtle, but a dealers surname can sometimes be a warning sign.:D:D:D

I like when telemarketers call here for Alan "Googer" :D

The reasoning was something like this, "it huffs and chuffs"
Sorry, that one went right over my head. I have no idea what you are saying...:confused:

TI has fixed the rainbow problem :)

Scariest thing I've EVER heard:


"Tryg has joined our sales staff and will be heading our DLP division!" :eek:

Talk about Hitler named "Head-Jew" :o

best buy and circuit city are dealers? :)

two things that struck me as odd with recent dealings with my local dealer.

1. In Wall Speakers are the way to go. 90% of what we sell are in walls (Paradigm) ?


Now this one really depends on your need. If you are an audiophile, in walls are not "the way to go", but if you are more into aesthetics, then they could be "the way to go". That said, there are some very good in walls out there that for your average person are going to sound just as good for a movie as any high-end floor standing speaker. I also absolutely believe that 90% of what he sells, assuming he is a CI, is in walls. Many, many people out there do not like the look or space requirements of floor or on wall speakers.

Uther what would you consider to be "very good" in-walls?

Very important for WAF in some instances.

Most people want to fill their house with $200 to $300 prs of inwalls on in ceilings. They get elevator music. Or even worse, Bose on walls.

This is a Bose store.

"This $29.95 Coby DVD player upconverts all DVDs to 1080p High Definition.
So, what's it gonna take to get you into a Bose 123 today?
Your friends will be soooo jealous."

When I moved into this house I had a local installer give me an estimate to do the wiring and electrical for the projector and screen. When he looked up at where the projector was to be mounted his assistant/helper asked if I had a really long extension cord.

I like when telemarketers call here for Alan "Googer" :D

I've no idea who you are talking about.:D:D:D

Another big news item is that Sony is establishing a uni lateral pricing policy on its projectors from the model VPL-vw60 on up and its new top of the line XBR panels. This policy starts in May and means they are hiring a shopping service and will terminate after warnings any dealer caught selling below MSRP for these models.


Things you dont want to hear from a dealer......

I think the above quote says it all. :p

Originally Posted by mark haflich
Another big news item is that Sony is establishing a uni lateral pricing policy on its projectors from the model VPL-vw60 on up and its new top of the line XBR panels. This policy starts in May and means they are hiring a shopping service and will terminate after warnings any dealer caught selling below MSRP for these models.

That sounds like great news for all other projector manufacturers who compete with the VW60 on up. Sony must be feeling its blu-ray oats right about now. 8)

I mean who in their right mind will actually pay $15,000 for a VW200 when it could be had for about 2/3 of that right now?

That's the problem. At $10K there is so little profit in the machine most Sony dealers won't display or sell the projector. Those that do sell it are going beneath the internet pricing right down to cost to punish the internet sellers for punishing them. Make sure that no one makes anything. Its ugly.

I had a CC salesman tell me the Monster Optical Digital was better because it had better magnetic shielding. I asked "against what? It OPTICAL." And all he said was, "oh yeah."

Now this one really depends on your need. If you are an audiophile, in walls are not "the way to go", but if you are more into aesthetics, then they could be "the way to go". That said, there are some very good in walls out there that for your average person are going to sound just as good for a movie as any high-end floor standing speaker. I also absolutely believe that 90% of what he sells, assuming he is a CI, is in walls. Many, many people out there do not like the look or space requirements of floor or on wall speakers.

i just found it odd. i think he believed what he said. i had just spent the 4 weeks prior to this conversation reading/researching speakers and what i found was the total opposite.

i actually liked this guy and purchased my pj and screen from him.

later.

That's the problem. At $10K there is so little profit in the machine most Sony dealers won't display or sell the projector. Those that do sell it are going beneath the internet pricing right down to cost to punish the internet sellers for punishing them. Make sure that no one makes anything. Its ugly.

Yeah competition driving prices down. I really wish we didn't have any of that crazyness. :rolleyes:

Is not competition. Its really come down to just screwing the "competition". No one is making any money. However its like fun money. Say you lose say $25 every few days selling a projector but you screwed the guy who screwed you. Worth it. That's what its come down to.

Is not competition. Its really come down to just screwing the "competition". No one is making any money. However its like fun money. Say you lose say $25 every few days selling a projector but you screwed the guy who screwed you. Worth it. That's what its come down to.

Yep, we lose a little on every sale, but make it up in volume!

but you screwed the guy who screwed you. Worth it. That's what its come down to.

Who do you consider is the guy who screwed you?

I've had many a situations like these..

But the one that rings loudes in my head was when the big box sales guy told me and with the utmost of confidense...

"You'll need to buy this $50 (insert mega brand here) 3' digital audio coax cable..... becuase it will make the ?PICTURE? so much better due to the transducers in each connector end"

I'm usually pretty thankful and nice even when being grin f!@#'d like this... but this time I just had to laugh.

Is not competition. Its really come down to just screwing the "competition". No one is making any money. However its like fun money. Say you lose say $25 every few days selling a projector but you screwed the guy who screwed you. Worth it. That's what its come down to.

I think this is a bit cynical. If not, then I need to sell my business and enter the projector business because there are a lot of ignorant people selling projectors out there. If you are talking about protecting the B&M dealers, they need to sell their service and the things that make B&M stores valuable (they didn't all disappear after internet stores appeared like some predicted, so they must have found some compelling reason to stay in business, right??). If they are not finding their competitive advantage and only competing on cost, then, yes, they need to move towards a volume sales model and figure out a way to sell more. Otherwise, they need to use it as a loss leader, although a projector doesn't really appear to be great candidate for this UNLESS you are a CI where you make your money on the services. The fact is, if they are selling at cost to just "screw" someone else, that is their own fault and they will quickly be out of business.

As for Sony, if they were to truly implement the model you describe, they are doing it for one of two reasons. First, they are bowing to dealers demands to increase margin in hopes of increasing sales volume by having dealers pitch their projectors more often. Of course, driving price up to try and increase sales has traditionally not been very successful in markets where there is extensive competition. One exception I can think of is the airline industry where often price hikes by one airline will cause the others to follow suit, but you are also talking about only 3 to 4 carriers that make up the bulk of the business. The projector market has considerably more competition and alternatives.

Second, they could just be moving to a standardized published price which would allow dealers to negotiate price on an individual basis, thus making it harder for consumers to shop around (e.g., just like a number of products that you have to add to your basket or call for price). My guess is this is the real motive behind such a plan as you have to have a very unique product, typically within protected dealer territories to just say the price is $xxxx.xx for every consumer or we cut you off. If they were to follow this strategy, who is really going to buy a Sony at 2 or 3 times the cost of the competition that sells a virtually identical product?

"I don't know much about this...I usually work on the dock but we were short staffed on the floor." :)

Second, they could just be moving to a standardized published price which would allow dealers to negotiate price on an individual basis, thus making it harder for consumers to shop around (e.g., just like a number of products that you have to add to your basket or call for price). My guess is this is the real motive behind such a plan as you have to have a very unique product, typically within protected dealer territories to just say the price is $xxxx.xx for every consumer or we cut you off. If they were to follow this strategy, who is really going to buy a Sony at 2 or 3 times the cost of the competition that sells a virtually identical product?

My understanding is that there will be a fixed price (MSRP), and if you sell for less this price they will not ship you product. Epson and Oppo are 2 companies that currently employ this strategy.

On the plus side, I have noticed that Sony has lowered their MSRP in some cases, perhaps in preparation for this new strategy. The VW40 was originally $3499 MSRP, but is now $2999 MSRP.

I guess we'll have to wait and see how everything shakes out.

"Of course, these speakers won't sound as good when you get them home because we're driving them with [insert really expensive brand name] electronics here."

-literal quote from a showroom in Delaware a few years ago (and he hadn't bothered to ask what type of electronics I already had at home)

As a side...the funny thing about the stores is that typically all the speakers/receivers/amps/etc... are routed through all kinds of switching equipment. Most of what you are hearing is degraded by all that gear in the loop anyways.

As a side...the funny thing about the stores is that typically all the speakers/receivers/amps/etc... are routed through all kinds of switching equipment. Most of what you are hearing is degraded by all that gear in the loop anyways.

No doubt. This particular place was a little boutique-ish, and the room wasn't the typical wall-full-of-equipment pick and choose... but still - on what planet does it make sense for the salesman to begin lowering my expectations of the end experience?

Well he was probably frustrated because he just wanted to sell you a Bose Lifestyle system and you wouldn't listen to him. :D

Well he was probably frustrated because he just wanted to sell you a Bose Lifestyle system and you wouldn't listen to him. :D

LOL! I was actually there with an audio reviewer friend of mine, and we both rolled our eyes and looked at each other with the same "I can't believe he just said that" expression.

It's quite fun. I like to go to CC or BB when I am looking for Bluray discs or something, and I meander over to the video department to listen to what is being said. Quite entertaining sometimes.

Epson and Oppo are 2 companies that currently employ this strategy.


I know Epson is not unless it is only in their dealer channel. There are forum sponors that sell Epson for less than Epson's SRP and these are large, high volume companies.

Epson Pro is, Epson Home is not.

It's quite fun. I like to go to CC or BB when I am looking for Bluray discs or something, and I meander over to the video department to listen to what is being said. Quite entertaining sometimes.

After the customer blacklisting and 'fake internal website' fiascos, I do my best to never enter a BB. The last time I was in a CC I had an immediate desire to get a DVI cable. They didn't have any for sale - told me that the only DVI cables would be the ones that come in the packaging when you buy a monitor or computer. Well... after trying to convince me that what I really needed was an HDMI cable.

It's quite fun. I like to go to CC or BB when I am looking for Bluray discs or something, and I meander over to the video department to listen to what is being said. Quite entertaining sometimes.

I do this, too. When my wife and kids are shopping in an area and a BB is nearby, I'll go there and just "look around" for awhile trying to overhear the employees attempting to explain things. If it gets to the point where there is a legitimate rip-off occurring or really wrong info is being shared, if I can get the customers attention without the employee around, I'll fill them in. I hate to see people waste more of their hard-earned money than they need to, or on something they don't need or can't use.

:) I have never tried to buy anything in there that I would actually need help with (not that anyone there would actually be able to help), so I don't have any ill feelings. :)

"you are shut off"

A couple of months after the Epson 1080 came out, Park Avenue Audio (can I name names?) tried to sell me a demo unit of the Epson 500 that had a thousand hours on it.

He said "we'll let go of it at a crazy low price," and told me this crazy low price was 3k. When I mentioned that Epson had followed the 500 with the 800 and 810 which could be had for 1500 and less and the 1080p model was under 3k he said, "it's not the same thing."

Rudeness is the main thing I don't want to get from a dealer and every high end retailer I've been to is dripping with arrogance. I come polite and correct, yet there is this continual "I'm doing you a favor," attitude that is prevalent even at places I've bought from.

D

I was told by a Pioneer rep that the Kuro's Allow colors to be individually adjusted. And that I can make my grass greener... if I wanted to.



I was like; oh so it can be even "more" neon green from the dynamic mode you have this **** on now....

My favorite conversation at a BB went something like this:
Me: "What is the difference between item A and item B?" (I don't remember exactly what)
Salesman: "It would be hard to explain it to you because it's very technical."
Me: "I'm a tech!"
Salesman: "Oh!" (walks away).

I do this, too. When my wife and kids are shopping in an area and a BB is nearby, I'll go there and just "look around" for awhile trying to overhear the employees attempting to explain things. If it gets to the point where there is a legitimate rip-off occurring or really wrong info is being shared, if I can get the customers attention without the employee around, I'll fill them in. I hate to see people waste more of their hard-earned money than they need to, or on something they don't need or can't use.I used to do the same thing, which did not endear me to the salespeople or the store management. Then I had a customer at a store complain to the manager and they asked me to leave. Now I just laugh, figuring if the customers are stupid enough to swallow the BS without researching themselves, they deserve whatever they get.

I used to do the same thing, which did not endear me to the salespeople or the store management. Then I had a customer at a store complain to the manager and they asked me to leave. Now I just laugh, figuring if the customers are stupid enough to swallow the BS without researching themselves, they deserve whatever they get.

I agree with you. I'm always torn between helping and letting them wallow in their own ignorance. When I try to help people, though, it's pretty easy to quickly figure out if they value my help or not; those that don't care can waste all the money they want. Maybe I'll even start steering them over to the *onster cables!

One of my favorites is watching a salesguy read the bullet points on the price tag to a customer. I've seen it many times, and I've been subjected to it a few times as well.

Customer: "What's the difference between these two models?"
Salesguy: [Studies tag intently] "Well, it says here that..."

I do this, too. When my wife and kids are shopping in an area and a BB is nearby, I'll go there and just "look around" for awhile

My wife never lets me wander the aisles at BB ever since I bought a bunch of Lap tops from this gal.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/BestBuyPole.jpg

My wife never lets me wander the aisles at BB ever since I bought a bunch of Lap tops from this gal.Laptops or lap dances?

I had told a salesperson at a specialty store that had a 30 day satisfaction guarantee policy, that the only reason I'd return the receivier was if it was sonically incompatible in my system.

He told me "You're not ready to buy yet".

I asked him, "You don't want to sell this to me?"

His senior compadre looked at him and told him to get it together and play by store policy.

Felt damned strange to have that told to me from someone who had already demonstrated that he couldn't answer half the questions about the receiver's functions.

My wife never lets me wander the aisles at BB ever since I bought a bunch of Lap tops from this gal.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/BestBuyPole.jpg

It's funny I had her as a saleswoman as well. I bought a $999 laptop but somehow ended up spending $1500. I'm not 100% sure where that $500 went, but I know I LOVE THE LAPTOP! :D

My understanding is that there will be a fixed price (MSRP), and if you sell for less this price they will not ship you product. Epson and Oppo are 2 companies that currently employ this strategy.
I would imagine they have to becareful in their implementation of this policy since it is illegal in many places (I'm guessing there is some state that allows it) for manufacturers to force dealers to sell at a certain price.

As a side...the funny thing about the stores is that typically all the speakers/receivers/amps/etc... are routed through all kinds of switching equipment. Most of what you are hearing is degraded by all that gear in the loop anyways.
In many high end stores they are not, but it doesn't change the absurdity of many of their claims regarding sound, "break-in", electronics and cables.

It is, but they can just cut you off from the line.

One thing I always hated was...

"Well we don't have THAT one in stock, but THIS one over here is just a little more..."

Richard

I have a pannie 429uk plasma.

From the BB team.
Xbox 360 will cause burn in on any plasma and this produces an over voltage in the tv's power supply which then sends a high voltage spike thru the video cables back into the xbox 360 resulting the red rings of death.

I have a pannie 429uk plasma.

From the BB team.
Xbox 360 will cause burn in on any plasma and this produces an over voltage in the tv's power supply which then sends a high voltage spike thru the video cables back into the xbox 360 resulting the red rings of death.

Wow I had no idea. I am going to use that. :rolleyes:

Went to CC looking for a learning remote.

Told the guy: "Hi, I want a learning remote not a universal remote."

Him: "What's that?"

Me: "You know...A remote that you learn in the codes from another remote instead of one that has the codes in it already."

Him: "I've never heard of such a thing, let me ask another associate."

His buddy comes over and has never heard of one either. I end up explaining to him (also) what a learning remote is and then thank them for their time and leave.

B.

My second most favorite happened in a Crazy Eddie store on Long Island. I had a $200 Nagatronics cartridge on my turntable (rather expensive for then). Nagatron was a small high-end manufacturer that was started by a group of ex-Shure employees.

Anyway, I had been having trouble finding a stylus and mine was getting worn so I stopped in a Crazy Eddie's on Long Island and asked the salesman if they carried stylii for Nagatronics. He went into the back room and came out with an Audio Technica AT-12S cartridge worth about $25 and told me it was far better.:confused:

My brother works at Sears in Canada and was transferred into the electronics department, where they sell TVs "home theater" stuff etc. He'd told me that it was staffed by a few old "lifers" and a couple young guys, all of whom were astonishingly clueless. I didn't quite know just how clueless until I walked into the Sears department asking if he was there.

This was about 2 or 3 years ago or so.

Amazingly, while they had some flat panels most of the Rear Projection sets were actually still CRTs! And they had one or two LCD RPTVs. That was in particular the time of DLP RPTVs dominating (before RPTVs started to disappear from the shelves in stores). I was curious if they actually sold any DLP sets, so I asked.

When I asked where their DLP rear projection sets are an older gentleman in a suit behind the counter just stared at me dumb, with a "what?" expression. I asked again "DLP? Where are your DLP rear projection TVs? "

"Uh...oh...yes we have this LCD set here...."

"No...D...L...P...Digital Light Projection?"

Still staring dumbly he grabs the other older gentleman in the suit behind the counter. Clearly the two "lifers" who were there to "help inform you for your home theater needs."

"Tell him what you are saying."

"Yes, I'm asking about DLP rear projectors."

"What are those?"

"You've got to be kidding."

Blank stares.

"They are the most popular rear projection technology at the moment. Walk into any big electronics store and most of the rear projection sets are DLP...but you guys have just these old CRT tube sets and big bulky CRT rear projection sets. Almost no one sells those any more."

They had this stunned look.

"Really?"

"Yes."

One guy grabs a piece of paper. "Could you say that again? What are those TVs called...?"

"D...L...P...."

"Gee, thanks....I guess we'll look into those..."

Yep, cutting edge thinking when you go to Sears for your Home Theater needs.

BB salesman swearing to me that he has a Sony HD DVD player (this was in early 2007) and that it plays HD DVDs, but Blu-ray looked much better. What he had was a Sony upconverting DVD player that would play SD side of HD DVD combo discs.

Overheard at Best Buy:

Customer: "Will this plasma accept a 1080P input?"

Salesman: "Oh, yeah -- it'll absolutely do ten-eighty P, or even twenty." :rolleyes:

Overheard at Best Buy:

Customer: "Will this plasma accept a 1080P input?"

Salesman: "Oh, yeah -- it'll absolutely do ten-eighty P, or even twenty." :rolleyes:

:D

"No...D...L...P...Digital Light Projection?"



You know DLP stand for Digital Light Processing. :)


I would have a blank stare to if you ask me to show you those TV's

lol j/k

Went to CC looking for a learning remote.

Told the guy: "Hi, I want a learning remote not a universal remote."

Him: "What's that?"

Me: "You know...A remote that you learn in the codes from another remote instead of one that has the codes in it already."

Him: "I've never heard of such a thing, let me ask another associate."

His buddy comes over and has never heard of one either. I end up explaining to him (also) what a learning remote is and then thank them for their time and leave.

B.

I probably would have done the same...

Most good universal remotes now have a learn feature.

You where asking for a feature not a product.

Or correct me if I'm wrong, show me a link to a non universal remote that is just a learning remote?


Because you in your sentance said to them not a universal remote.

I see RBE on the Marantz VP-11S2 all the time, but I rarley see them on the Marantz VP-15S1... :)

(Inside joke)

In many high end stores they are not, but it doesn't change the absurdity of many of their claims regarding sound, "break-in", electronics and cables.

I would love to rip this one apart, but alas its not worth the time or effort.

Long story short, most of what they are telling you is real, you just don't care to listen. You hear them, but are not listening to them.

"All serious home theaters use CRT projectors"

TA

Ah shoot... I have to return my Marantz VP-11S2, sorry Dan.

Is not competition. Its really come down to just screwing the "competition". No one is making any money. However its like fun money. Say you lose say $25 every few days selling a projector but you screwed the guy who screwed you. Worth it. That's what its come down to.

Who do you consider is the guy who screwed you?

Alan,

Maybe you should start buying your projectors through Mark? Mark could get even with the manufacturers who allow this type of Internet selling by screwing them and selling to you for less, undercutting them by $100 or so beneath cost. In fact, maybe you could convince him the manufacturer really screwed him bad, so he'd sell to you for $500 below cost just to screw them over even more.

Long story short, most of what they are telling you is real, you just don't care to listen. You hear them, but are not listening to them.Do you mean about breaking in cables and electronics? Do you rotate your speaker cables every 300-500 hours to prevent uneven wear?

".... there will be another wave after this batch...."

(repeat several times....)

;)

Shawn

"What misconvergence? I don't see any"

"Sorry, that is 'in spec'. there's nothing I can do."

"Hi! Im Mark Haflich, welcome to my store! Can I help you buy anything?" 8)

JK Mark! 8)

It is, but they can just cut you off from the line.

One thing I always hated was...

"Well we don't have THAT one in stock, but THIS one over here is just a little more..."

Richard

They could, but if someone had the time and resources, they could sue the c**p out of them and win.

It's Alan's business model. Buy high, sell low. Make it up on AVS Club membership fees and cruise kickbacks.

I thought their model was dont make a killing off of your customers, just a living, and make your money in satisfied customer return purchases and volume. 8)

My second most favorite happened in a Crazy Eddie store on Long Island. I had a $200 Nagatronics cartridge on my turntable (rather expensive for then). Nagatron was a small high-end manufacturer that was started by a group of ex-Shure employees.

Ah yes, that brings back the memories... I remember all sorts of lore associated with turntables: using a Discwasher to clean the LPs before every play, using a Zero Stat to neutralize static, tweaking the anti-skate adjustment...

I bought my first CD player in 1983 and haven't looked back. ;)

I probably would have done the same...

Most good universal remotes now have a learn feature.

You where asking for a feature not a product.

Or correct me if I'm wrong, show me a link to a non universal remote that is just a learning remote?


Because you in your sentance said to them not a universal remote.

I should have mentioned this was about 15 years ago, so yes, most universal remotes were not learning and vice versa. It was for a friend when the Memorex CP8 had broken (a very nice learning remote in those days...)

Here, see this thread: http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-pronto/thread.cgi?77


B.

OK. Enough with the remote stuff. Semantic differences. I think we all understand. No big deal. Peace and love. Let me monopolize being the maronic one here.

October 2005:

Me: I want two HDMI cables, one component, one rs 232 and one S video run from the equipment room to the front projector.
Installer: No you don't. They don't even have the HDMI cables agreed on and DVI can't go 50 feet. Just use one set of component and save the money.
Me: I believe you are talking about the encription protocols not being perfected. The cables are agreed upon. This company (website name and cable name written down is pushed across the large desk) sells the cable I want since it is rated for 1080P at 50 feet.
Installer: I can get this for less money from another company.
Me: Buy the cable I asked for.
Installer: OK, buy the way what does HDMI cable look like.

Note that this is an abreviated real conversation. Mine was the first HDMI cable and THX ultra in wall speaker cable he had ever installed by Feb 2006. I had the room designed Rives but there are slim pickings around here for Installers.

Bill

Originally Posted by Marc Rumsey
My understanding is that there will be a fixed price (MSRP), and if you sell for less this price they will not ship you product. Epson and Oppo are 2 companies that currently employ this strategy. I would imagine they have to becareful in their implementation of this policy since it is illegal in many places (I'm guessing there is some state that allows it) for manufacturers to force dealers to sell at a certain price.

You must have missed last years Supreme Court ruling allowing manufacturers to implement this policy if they so choose. There were quite a few threads on this decision by the Court with many posters saying it would ultimately lead to higher pricing. Here's a good example of the discussions that ensued :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868063&highlight=Supreme+Court

Alan,

Maybe you should start buying your projectors through Mark? Mark could get even with the manufacturers who allow this type of Internet selling by screwing them and selling to you for less, undercutting them by $100 or so beneath cost. In fact, maybe you could convince him the manufacturer really screwed him bad, so he'd sell to you for $500 below cost just to screw them over even more.

LMAO :D

October 2005:

Me: I want two HDMI cables, one component, one rs 232 and one S video run from the equipment room to the front projector.
Installer: No you don't. They don't even have the HDMI cables agreed on and DVI can't go 50 feet. Just use one set of component and save the money.
Me: I believe you are talking about the encription protocols not being perfected. The cables are agreed upon. This company (website name and cable name written down is pushed across the large desk) sells the cable I want since it is rated for 1080P at 50 feet.
Installer: I can get this for less money from another company.
Me: Buy the cable I asked for.
Installer: OK, buy the way what does HDMI cable look like.

Note that this is an abreviated real conversation. Mine was the first HDMI cable and THX ultra in wall speaker cable he had ever installed by Feb 2006. I had the room designed Rives but there are slim pickings around here for Installers.

Bill

Please tell me you didn't pay extra for "THX Ultra" cable...:rolleyes:

I did have to pay for the speaker wire at an appropriate cost for 14 guage and 16 guage in-wall. The cost of the wire was minor compared to the cost of installation. His standard speaker wire was 22 guage with 20 guage being the upgrade. This would not be sufficient for 400 watts per channel and 50 feet for some of the runs. He had never run any in-wall thicker than 20 guage. I do believe size matters: I am a urologist.

Bill

October 2005:

Me: I want two HDMI cables, one component, one rs 232 and one S video run from the equipment room to the front projector.
Installer: No you don't. They don't even have the HDMI cables agreed on and DVI can't go 50 feet. Just use one set of component and save the money.
Me: I believe you are talking about the encription protocols not being perfected. The cables are agreed upon. This company (website name and cable name written down is pushed across the large desk) sells the cable I want since it is rated for 1080P at 50 feet.
Installer: I can get this for less money from another company.
Me: Buy the cable I asked for.
Installer: OK, buy the way what does HDMI cable look like.

Note that this is an abreviated real conversation. Mine was the first HDMI cable and THX ultra in wall speaker cable he had ever installed by Feb 2006. I had the room designed Rives but there are slim pickings around here for Installers.

Bill

I'm curious -- why did you ask the installer to buy it for you (inviting the markup) instead of buying it yourself and just asking him to use the components? It sounds like if you know what you want and how you want it you should be able to do a work-for-hire $/hr. type setup. Again, I'm curious, since I've never actually used an installer but am considering hiring one for my new theater and am not sure what's kosher. I had assumed it's just ok to supply your own stuff, but if the installer recommends some equipment and you agree, then he supplies it. No?

While at Best Buys various times during Oct-December 2007, they were playing an LG demo satellite feed on all their wall tv displays where LG states (approximate quote) 'get twice the definition with our 1080p tv's versus 1080i sets'. Not sure if they're still playing it (I bet they are) but I sure had a laugh.
Asked the sales clerk what that meant and he said since 1080i is interlaced you only get half the lines. Ok....well at least he knew what the 'i' stood for.
Maybe LG should be the bashed here, though. I can just hear some VIP at LG telling BB nationwide purchasing agent 'you'd better run this promo if you want our products' and BB guy saying 'but it's not true' and LG saying, 'so what; 1080i, 1080p, 1080s, you think those idiot customers know the dif or even care?'

Things you dont want to hear from a dealer :



Was that your car that just got towed away?

Sorry, AMX says your wife just canceled your card.

Man you should have been here yesterday, we were clearing out some overstocks on that unit.

Didn't you get that recall notice?

We hope to clear up this mess with all the deposits that have been made as soon as the IRS/FBI unfreezes our accounts.

These are some that I hear often:

* We only have one of those.. we just can't keep them in stock.
* Sony tube TV's were very good but their projectors aren't good.
" Are you familiar with front projectors?
* CRT front pj were horrible. Like the ones in bars.
* DLP's have suprior PQ. In what why DLP are have suprior PQ? UM...They are just the best.

At a "high-end" store:
"If that's all you can spend, try Best Buy or Circuit City. We only carry the best equipment!"

From a place that sells:
Speaker Cable (12 foot pair) $21,205.00
Mono Amplifiers $60,000.00/pair
Floorstanding Speakers (Dark Titanium) $135,000.00/pair

Customer: "I only buy brand X components. Do you carry these"
Dealer: [suddenly looks very solemn] "Not since the fire."

He asked me what I had. I said if I told him what I had he would have no clue as to what it was.

He then proceeded to tell me he was a video expert and that I would never know as much as he did.

I lost it. I told him he was an ahole and a lousy salesman to boot.

So first you insult him by telling him he would have no clue as to what you own (an assumption on your part and not even giving him a chance) then you are super offended by his reactionary response of being insulted? You could have just laughed and said not likely, a proper course of action after having insulted him first. How do you think it would make you feel if you asked a person what electronics they own and they said to you "you are too stupid to possibly know"? (translation of what he heard)

I'd be very surprised if someone who either OWNED a particular product or was able to pick the brain of said owners DIDN'T know more about the product than most any employee selling same equoment. You simply have more time to devote to it because you're excited about it and make time to learn.

The big box employees some of you are ridiculing have a LOT more to juggle than just the minutia of your particular model. They also have to remember info and specs on the 40-50 OTHER tvs that he has to sell, AND the dozen or more upconverting DVD players, 6 DVD/VHS combo players, 6 DVD/VHS recorders, the 8 or 9 currently available or in peoples' homes HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players, (has to remember stuff like "does the PS3 upconvert or not?"), plus recall whether or not TWC Scientific Atlanta HD DVR boxes have the same specs as the regular HD non-DVR box, has to recall that the new DTV boxes ship with the b-band converter in-box but that you can still get one for free from DTV for your older box. He also has to recall info on a dozen or so HTIBs, which ones have HDMI, and what his current availability is on all these products. He has to try to speak intelligently about every model because the purchase of an HDTV is HUGE for most people, and everyone's situation is unique. He has to worry about that one hard-core haggler that's going to come in every weekend, and jeez, I hope I don't have to deal with him, AND, he has to be able to speak to his company's installation options and present them in such a way that demonstrates value in a matter of minutes, AND be able to do the same with his company's extra warranties. He has to remember what kind of cables you might need, a surge suppressor/line conditioner, tv or component stand, in-wall versus bookshelf or tower speakers, to find out if you need a universal remote and programming, a wall-mount for that massive plasma you're looking at (trying to remember just how much it weighs to see if it really does need a second bracket and how to present that in such a way that you don't think he's just trying to rip you off), do you want your HDTV hooked up to your surround sound, and oh, would you like a Blu-Ray demo with that?

All that while trying to balance your needs, and his company's needs.

So, the next time you go into a big box retailer, stop and think about it before you decide to return to the message boards and poke fun, all because whoever wasn't at 100% when you went in to mentally spar with someone about your pj.

I'm done. :)

Here's one:

'The RG6 I am selling is more expensive because it is frequency swept'.

;13328373']I'd be very surprised if someone who either OWNED a particular product or was able to pick the brain of said owners DIDN'T know more about the product than most any employee selling same equoment. You simply have more time to devote to it because you're excited about it and make time to learn.

The big box employees some of you are ridiculing have a LOT more to juggle than just the minutia of your particular model. They also have to remember info and specs on the 40-50 OTHER tvs that he has to sell, AND the dozen or more upconverting DVD players, 6 DVD/VHS combo players, 6 DVD/VHS recorders, the 8 or 9 currently available or in peoples' homes HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players, (has to remember stuff like "does the PS3 upconvert or not?"), plus recall whether or not TWC Scientific Atlanta HD DVR boxes have the same specs as the regular HD non-DVR box, has to recall that the new DTV boxes ship with the b-band converter in-box but that you can still get one for free from DTV for your older box. He also has to recall info on a dozen or so HTIBs, which ones have HDMI, and what his current availability is on all these products. He has to try to speak intelligently about every model because the purchase of an HDTV is HUGE for most people, and everyone's situation is unique. He has to worry about that one hard-core haggler that's going to come in every weekend, and jeez, I hope I don't have to deal with him, AND, he has to be able to speak to his company's installation options and present them in such a way that demonstrates value in a matter of minutes, AND be able to do the same with his company's extra warranties. He has to remember what kind of cables you might need, a surge suppressor/line conditioner, tv or component stand, in-wall versus bookshelf or tower speakers, to find out if you need a universal remote and programming, a wall-mount for that massive plasma you're looking at (trying to remember just how much it weighs to see if it really does need a second bracket and how to present that in such a way that you don't think he's just trying to rip you off), do you want your HDTV hooked up to your surround sound, and oh, would you like a Blu-Ray demo with that?

All that while trying to balance your needs, and his company's needs.

So, the next time you go into a big box retailer, stop and think about it before you decide to return to the message boards and poke fun, all because whoever wasn't at 100% when you went in to mentally spar with someone about your pj.

I'm done. :)

Well.....A lot of this has to do with whether they really care about (and covet) the products or not. If said employee would be just as happy working at the lumber yard or at the donut shop, then you get what you get.

I used to work for a local electronics store in my early 20's, where all of us were genuinely excited about the new stuff coming out. We used to pore over all the literature and flyers we could get (this was pre-Internet as we know it) and learn all there was to know because we really *wanted* to know. And of course we bought a lot of it for ourselves. When manufacturer reps came in to give us "training", we already knew more than they did, and we were merciless with them (kids can be cruel :) ). This knowledge and excitement on our part translated into a very positive experience for our customers.

I have to think that there are still plenty of kids like this out there now.
They just don't seem to work at box stores.

Kids at box stores:
Every box store I have been inthe level of knowledge, regardless of the crazy things that are spoken, it adequate for the average person in the expected target audience.

Should we expect expert advice for someone making, maybe, $10 an hour?

Sticking tothe topic
" yeah my mom and dad just bought this tv for me graduating high school"

Dla26

I let the installer get the markup because I have and had better things to do with my time while having a house built, working and enjoying my family than to pickup and drop off over 200 feet of 16 and 14 guage in wall (thick outer shell made to deflect nails and prevent fire) wire. The markup would have been hidden in something else if I had tried this ploy anyway.

Bill

Before I get started, let me just say that I know this post will ruffle a few feathers around here as I know negative talk against buying only from Authorized Dealers really is not the most politically correct thing to speak against on this site.

Well, I recently bought a Sony VW60 from an authorized on-line retailer.
Once I had made my decision on the VW60, I soon realized that my troubles had just begun as a prudent shopper.
Let me first start off by saying I personally believe this authorized dealer stuff is a bunch of crap.
I found a site (Dealer A) that had excellent prices and they said they were an authorized dealer. But then I later talked to another site (Dealer B) and they said the first place (Dealer A) that I had spoken with was not actually an authorized Sony dealer.
But then upon further investigation I found out they (Dealer A) was actually an authorized dealer for Sony.
This is really funny because when I presented this evidence to Dealer B, they said that yes Dealer A was in fact an authorized Sony dealer, but they were not authorized to sell home theater projectors!! :eek: :confused:
This is ridiculous!!
So I searched endlessly on-line to find Sony Authorized dealers and found nothing.
There was nothing I could find that linked either dealer... dealer A or dealer B as authorized Sony dealers.
Finally when I did find something, it only listed a few brick and mortar stores like Best Buy and the Sony site just looked completely out of date.
My complaints are many, but I want to say that if companies want people to only buy their products from authorized dealers, they should provide UP TO DATE INFORMATION THAT ACCURATELY LIST's WHO IS AN AUTHORIZED DEALER so that people can fully understand and know who is authorized and who is not.
I personally don’t trust dealers that slam other dealers.
Again, I bought my VW60 from an authorized dealer, but I think this authorized dealer topic is just another way for dealers to collude pricing and keep pricing high.

Well.....A lot of this has to do with whether they really care about (and covet) the products or not. If said employee would be just as happy working at the lumber yard or at the donut shop, then you get what you get.

I used to work for a local electronics store in my early 20's, where all of us were genuinely excited about the new stuff coming out. We used to pore over all the literature and flyers we could get (this was pre-Internet as we know it) and learn all there was to know because we really *wanted* to know. And of course we bought a lot of it for ourselves. When manufacturer reps came in to give us "training", we already knew more than they did, and we were merciless with them (kids can be cruel :) ). This knowledge and excitement on our part translated into a very positive experience for our customers.

I have to think that there are still plenty of kids like this out there now.
They just don't seem to work at box stores.

Then give said employee the benefit of the doubt.

Before I get started, let me just say that I know this post will ruffle a few feathers around here as I know negative talk against buying only from Authorized Dealers really is not the most politically correct thing to speak against on this site.

Well, I recently bought a Sony VW60 from an authorized on-line retailer.
Once I had made my decision on the VW60, I soon realized that my troubles had just begun as a prudent shopper.
Let me first start off by saying I personally believe this authorized dealer stuff is a bunch of crap.
I found a site (Dealer A) that had excellent prices and they said they were an authorized dealer. But then I later talked to another site (Dealer B) and they said the first place (Dealer A) that I had spoken with was not actually an authorized Sony dealer.
But then upon further investigation I found out they (Dealer A) was actually an authorized dealer for Sony.
This is really funny because when I presented this evidence to Dealer B, they said that yes Dealer A was in fact an authorized Sony dealer, but they were not authorized to sell home theater projectors!! :eek: :confused:
This is ridiculous!!
So I searched endlessly on-line to find Sony Authorized dealers and found nothing.
There was nothing I could find that linked either dealer... dealer A or dealer B as authorized Sony dealers.
Finally when I did find something, it only listed a few brick and mortar stores like Best Buy and the Sony site just looked completely out of date.
My complaints are many, but I want to say that if companies want people to only buy their products from authorized dealers, they should provide UP TO DATE INFORMATION THAT ACCURATELY LIST's WHO IS AN AUTHORIZED DEALER so that people can fully understand and know who is authorized and who is not.
I personally don’t trust dealers that slam other dealers.
Again, I bought my VW60 from an authorized dealer, but I think this authorized dealer topic is just another way for dealers to collude pricing and keep pricing high.


Thank you for saying that. When I bought my vsx-94txh I had authorized dealers quoting me unreal prices. Who is kidding who?

When the authorized dealers cut eachothers throats over price they need to fix their issues and stop blaming people shopping at other places.

;13328373']The big box employees some of you are ridiculing have a LOT more to juggle than just the minutia of your particular model. They also have to remember info and specs on the 40-50 OTHER tvs that he has to sell, AND the dozen or more upconverting DVD players, 6 DVD/VHS combo players, 6 DVD/VHS recorders, the 8 or 9 currently available or in peoples' homes HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players, (has to remember stuff like "does the PS3 upconvert or not?"), plus recall whether or not TWC Scientific Atlanta HD DVR boxes have the same specs as the regular HD non-DVR box, has to recall that the new DTV boxes ship with the b-band converter in-box but that you can still get one for free from DTV for your older box. He also has to recall info on a dozen or so HTIBs, which ones have HDMI, and what his current availability is on all these products. He has to try to speak intelligently about every model because the purchase of an HDTV is HUGE for most people, and everyone's situation is unique. He has to worry about that one hard-core haggler that's going to come in every weekend, and jeez, I hope I don't have to deal with him, AND, he has to be able to speak to his company's installation options and present them in such a way that demonstrates value in a matter of minutes, AND be able to do the same with his company's extra warranties. He has to remember what kind of cables you might need, a surge suppressor/line conditioner, tv or component stand, in-wall versus bookshelf or tower speakers, to find out if you need a universal remote and programming, a wall-mount for that massive plasma you're looking at (trying to remember just how much it weighs to see if it really does need a second bracket and how to present that in such a way that you don't think he's just trying to rip you off), do you want your HDTV hooked up to your surround sound, and oh, would you like a Blu-Ray demo with that?


Pretty amazing that these guys can't seem to remember any of this stuff, isn't it? Hey, if I can get a BB guy to tell me where a certain product in the store is PHYSICALLY LOCATED, I consider that salesman above average.

Turnover in retail is 40-55%, so what do you expect when you constantly have to retrain new staff?

Thank you for saying that. When I bought my vsx-94txh I had authorized dealers quoting me unreal prices. Who is kidding who?

When the authorized dealers cut eachothers throats over price they need to fix their issues and stop blaming people shopping at other places.


The "Authorized Dealer" policies to me are nothing more than a way to artificially inflate prices by collusion.
I wanna know how so called "Un-Authorized Dealers" get their hands on Sony projectors (or any HT projectors) in the first place. Especially for such reasonable prices? I mean they can not be buying them from one dealer to sell on their site... not at the prices they are offering.

The "Authorized Dealer" policies to me are nothing more than a way to artificially inflate prices by collusion.
I wanna know how so called "Un-Authorized Dealers" get their hands on Sony projectors (or any HT projectors) in the first place. Especially for such reasonable prices? I mean they can not be buying them from one dealer to sell on their site... not at the prices they are offering.

My thinking is this.
Store A is and authorized dealer for the widget.
Sony places a requirement that Store A must order 10 Widgets to maintain their "authorized Dealer" status. Store A knows darn well that they can not sell 10 Widgets at or near full price.

Or if Store A orders 10 widgets they pay $10 with a retail or $100 but if they order 20 they pay $17 witha retail of $200. But the thing is their unit cost is lower. They know they can't sell twently at MSRP but now they might be able to sell 11. The other 9 might end up sold slightly over cost but still at a profit.

So introduce the other guy or on line store. Most likely they have purchased the (let's call it) excess inventory from Store A. They sell it 20% over cost and 40 to 60% below MSPR. you and I are estatic, Store A is happy and the other guy is happy too.

To protect themselves Store A cries foul to protect their image.

The other scenario is distributors who are not dealers order 100 units. 75 got out the front door and 24 go out the back and 1 gets loaded into thir car.

Pure speculation on my behalf.

All statements are pure speculation on my behalf and if there is a Store A selling widgets to the other guy it is simply by coincidence.

The "Gray" market for goods usually happen in a few different ways. One is the distributor acts as a dealer but sells them on the internet under a different name giving them a price advantage over a regular dealer. Problems can happen in shipping where the product is missing from the boat or port to the distributor. Another way is the factory that makes the products for a manufacturer might sell some pieces sideways to unauthorized companies or individuals. These sideway products might not always be identical to the original design but still might be sold as the brand name. These problems can be bigger than people realize.

I agree that dealers shouldn't bad mouth other dealers. I want a dealer to tell me the benefits of buying from their establishment. It is up to the consumer to determine if the benefits of a dealer is worth paying more at one location versus another. Also, companies should keep their authorized dealers up to date. Or at a minimum give you the distributors info and the distributor can locally direct you to an appropriate dealer.

Bob

;13334893']Turnover in retail is 40-55%, so what do you expect when you constantly have to retrain new staff?

What do I expect? I expect to not shop there. And I generally don't. When I do (it happens maybe twice a year, it seems) I bust in and out of there so fast the sales people never see me, like the ninja.

Pretty amazing that these guys can't seem to remember any of this stuff, isn't it? Hey, if I can get a BB guy to tell me where a certain product in the store is PHYSICALLY LOCATED, I consider that salesman above average.You might think it is a BB problem? Not hardly! Fry's is far worse:

I was at a Fry's yesterday looking for parts for a project. I asked a salesman where to find bnc connectors. He asked another salesman and then told me that they had very few and to check two aisles: one that had CCTV cameras and one that had car audio parts. I checked both aisles and after wandering around, found a different aisle that had all kinds of connectors, including the ones I wanted.

Then I asked a different salesman where to find Wiremold. He said they don't carry it. Of course, you can guess the outcome - I found it myself.

Now, I understand that in a store like Fry's, the number of line items they carry makes it impossible for any employee know where everything is, but they should at least know where to look.

If we area all so knowledgable then why must we turn to the less fortunate for assistance.

My thinking is this.
Store A is and authorized dealer for the widget.
Sony places a requirement that Store A must order 10 Widgets to maintain their "authorized Dealer" status. Store A knows darn well that they can not sell 10 Widgets at or near full price.

Or if Store A orders 10 widgets they pay $10 with a retail or $100 but if they order 20 they pay $17 witha retail of $200. But the thing is their unit cost is lower. They know they can't sell twently at MSRP but now they might be able to sell 11. The other 9 might end up sold slightly over cost but still at a profit.

So introduce the other guy or on line store. Most likely they have purchased the (let's call it) excess inventory from Store A. They sell it 20% over cost and 40 to 60% below MSPR. you and I are estatic, Store A is happy and the other guy is happy too.

To protect themselves Store A cries foul to protect their image.

The other scenario is distributors who are not dealers order 100 units. 75 got out the front door and 24 go out the back and 1 gets loaded into thir car.

Pure speculation on my behalf.

All statements are pure speculation on my behalf and if there is a Store A selling widgets to the other guy it is simply by coincidence.

Well, why doesn’t store “A” just sell their “widgets” or projectors at a marginal profit instead of trying to soak its customers? This would allow store “A” to reach its needed quota and make a valuable sale to a possible future/returning client in the process.
This way store “A” does not have to sell its projectors to a third party. This is of course assuming your theory is true. :)
By the way, my original comments to this thread were involving on-line dealers… not brick and mortar stores.

The "Gray" market for goods usually happen in a few different ways. One is the distributor acts as a dealer but sells them on the internet under a different name giving them a price advantage over a regular dealer. Problems can happen in shipping where the product is missing from the boat or port to the distributor. Another way is the factory that makes the products for a manufacturer might sell some pieces sideways to unauthorized companies or individuals. These sideway products might not always be identical to the original design but still might be sold as the brand name. These problems can be bigger than people realize.

I agree that dealers shouldn't bad mouth other dealers. I want a dealer to tell me the benefits of buying from their establishment. It is up to the consumer to determine if the benefits of a dealer is worth paying more at one location versus another. Also, companies should keep their authorized dealers up to date. Or at a minimum give you the distributors info and the distributor can locally direct you to an appropriate dealer. ;)

Bob

Well, regarding items lost or “missing” off the boat. I believe you might be referring to stolen products? Well, I don’t think I’ll be buying any products being sold individually off ebay anytime soon. Nor should anyone else.
As far as products being sold as sideways and being different perhaps in some of the inner components of the unit. I say this is BS. Why on earth would Sony even release projectors or other products that don’t have parts inside them that don’t meet their standards? If this was happening and this information got out, this would crush Sony or any other manufacturer for that matter. So I just don’t see this happening.
I think at this stage, the customer is being totally left in the dark by Sony. If an up to date website exists that identifies all authorized dealers, I would like someone to show me. So, in my opinion, this rests the blame on Sony.
I had to do a lot of research as a consumer. More than I felt I should have because no information exists identifying authorized dealers.
Personally, I believe it is the dealers that have made the issue with sellers being authorized more than Sony it self.
Thus my reasoning for this issue being used for inflating prices.

Well, why doesn’t store “A” just sell their “widgets” or projectors at a marginal profit instead of trying to soak its customers? This would allow store “A” to reach its needed quota and make a valuable sale to a possible future/returning client in the process.
This way store “A” does not have to sell its projectors to a third party. This is of course assuming your theory is true. :)
By the way, my original comments to this thread were involving on-line dealers… not brick and mortar stores.

I wondered that myself.

Local Pioneer Elite dealer was $100 over MSRP
Local dealer claiming bankruptcy $200 under MSRP
Local Box store with a special HT area $225 under MSRP
Online gray market $600 less than MSRP
Online call this authorized dealer $600 MSRP

How can B & M stay in business with the prices available.
It really makes me wonder what the mark up is on other AV items.

So back on topic
When the salesman says whew knocking off $200 brings it very close to our actual cost.

Kids at box stores:
Every box store I have been inthe level of knowledge, regardless of the crazy things that are spoken, it adequate for the average person in the expected target audience.

Should we expect expert advice for someone making, maybe, $10 an hour?

Sticking tothe topic
" yeah my mom and dad just bought this tv for me graduating high school"

I expect those doing a job to do it well. I went into a photo store when I was in grad school at Michigan.
I asked about printing to the guy behind the counter he said" he was a grad student and this was only a temporary job until he moved on so he didn't know" !:rolleyes:

Do you feel that if those folks were payed say $17 an hour then they are paid enough to know their job? What is the threshold ?

Art

I expect those doing a job to do it well. I went into a photo store when I was in grad school at Michigan.
I asked about printing to the guy behind the counter he said" he was a grad student and this was only a temporary job until he moved on so he didn't know" !:rolleyes:

Do you feel that if those folks were payed say $17 an hour then they are paid enough to know their job? What is the threshold ?

Art

Good point.

Perhaps what we are missing is what is the expectations set forth by the companies. Expert or knowledgable.
Perhaps the responisiblity of the photo store employee is more than the boxed store employee.
For instance does the the photo store employee have an unrestrictive, single point of access for high cost electronics? Most likely, so a better pay based on access, probably closing or opening the store, and access to cash.
The boxed store employee is more of selling what they are told, talking to their friends for 50% of the shift, more controlled access to expensive electronics and has more eyes on them than they think.

At your job you have expectations to perform to and as long as you are performing to that level, for the most part, you retain your job. So if the box stores have given expectation of a sales associate and they are performing to the expectations then what we say is a mute point.

Expert probably not, gives a crap 50 -50 on that, more interested in getting out on time (you bet)

I do enjoy talking to the salespeople even if I disagree with what they are saying. Sure some of its funny. But I try to show them the same respect I would like to be given if it was me wearing the blue shirt.

Well, regarding items lost or “missing” off the boat. I believe you might be referring to stolen products? Well, I don’t think I’ll be buying any products being sold individually off ebay anytime soon. Nor should anyone else.
As far as products being sold as sideways and being different perhaps in some of the inner components of the unit. I say this is BS. Why on earth would Sony even release projectors or other products that don’t have parts inside them that don’t meet their standards? If this was happening and this information got out, this would crush Sony or any other manufacturer for that matter. So I just don’t see this happening.
I think at this stage, the customer is being totally left in the dark by Sony. If an up to date website exists that identifies all authorized dealers, I would like someone to show me. So, in my opinion, this rests the blame on Sony.
I had to do a lot of research as a consumer. More than I felt I should have because no information exists identifying authorized dealers.
Personally, I believe it is the dealers that have made the issue with sellers being authorized more than Sony it self.
Thus my reasoning for this issue being used for inflating prices.

Some sellers on Ebay claim to be dealers.

I was not referring to Sony specifically with the sideways selling, but stating it is a big problem in the electronics industy not just AV. I know of a speaker company that was having a certain model speaker sold by 'unauthorized' dealers. The speaker company bought some of the speakers and found they had different drivers and crossovers but used the same cabinet. The speaker company stopped using this particular overseas factory and had their speakers manufactured elsewhere where they haven't ran into this problem again. It did cost the company a lot of money to correct this problem.

This would probably be much harder to do with a PJ but it does happen in the electronics world. And if Sony has its own factory it is probably not an issue for them. Remember, that are a lot of products manufactured in many parts of the world and this problem continues to grow.

Either way you shouldn't have to go through the hoops you did to find an authorized dealer and that problems rests with Sony. Are any of the 'authorized' dealers with inflated prices charging more than MSRP? Is this product so hot and scarce that dealers are getting more than MSRP? If a dealer doesn't want to discount his price and uses being an 'authorized' dealer as the reason. There is nothing wrong with that. Find an authorized dealer that will give you a discount.

Bob

PS. Does AVS sell Sony? They have a solid reputation and usually good pricing.

Interesting idea.

That's untrue! Those "big box retailers" would rather have a person who worked at Baby GAP for 20 years than me. I have a Bachelors in Human Resource Management. I did buying using quicken inventory for two years. I moved and wanted a quick job. So I tried as a salesman at Howard's Big Screens and Appliances. I was denied because I didn't have a year, only a YEAR, of SALES!!!! Being a BUYER didn't count. Even though it's the same damn thing. Your job is to call sellers and convince them to accept your low balled price, which I was very good at. I know my stuff when it comes to TVs, I know the business model, and especially I'm very friendly to customers(unlike I am to certain members here on AVS, sorry. It's probably because they remind me of those idiots.) and know about all the different TV techs. You can "mentally spar" with me all you want, 99% of the time I'll be able to give a CORRECT answer, not these BS ones you hear from the Best Buy drones.

well, my experience is the exact opposite of yours. I am nearly 40, and had 16 years in another industry not even remotely connected to retail or sales or electronics, and I not only got hired, I was a Magnolia Pro for a year. I was passionate about my job, and fell in love with audio and video after I began to sell it. I am a Best Buy "drone", and I educate everyone I hear on the floor who utters things that will embarrass the company and themselves. "Yes, this XBR5 tv costs more because it has a much better video processor than the XBR4 does"; "oh, you're going to need a wall-mount because Pioneer Elite tvs don't have stands".

;13350804']well, my experience is the exact opposite of yours. I am nearly 40, and had 16 years in another industry not even remotely connected to retail or sales or electronics, and I not only got hired, I was a Magnolia Pro for a year. I was passionate about my job, and fell in love with audio and video after I began to sell it. I am a Best Buy "drone", and I educate everyone I hear on the floor who utters things that will embarrass the company and themselves. "Yes, this XBR5 tv costs more because it has a much better video processor than the XBR4 does"; "oh, you're going to need a wall-mount because Pioneer Elite tvs don't have stands".

I will agree with you.
There are some very passionate BB employees who enjoy what they are doing and are always willing to learn about the product they are selling.
Usually, when I go into BB, I have researched the product quite Thoroughly because I know more often than not... I'll run into someone who doesn't know anything about what he/she is selling.

There are some very passionate BB employees who enjoy what they are doing and are always willing to learn about the product they are selling.


... and some of them are just CIA operatives using the job as a plausible cover activity. ;)

(apologies to those who aren't viewers of "Chuck")

A guy selling high end projectors told me we can only see 200:1 contrast, and that higher numbers were basically a lie. He then went onto explain to me that the high end projectors we were looking at in his demo room were so good because of their 'dynamic range'. When I asked him what he meant by that, he didn't know.... When trying to determine if it was actually contrast ratio and not image brightness, he kinda admitted it must be the contrast. Yet if we can only see 200:1 wasn't the dynamic range advantage a contradictstuff in their home. How scary is that?

Gary

He may be right . The ansi contrast the human eye can actually see is very low due to the veiling glare of th eye and probably less than 200:1 . the dynamic contrast known as the on/off contrast is much higher maybe as high as a million to one over varying lighting conditions.

if you put up a checkerboard pattern on a projector with an ansi contrast of 200:1 and than put up a checkerboard pattern with an ansi contrast of 800: 1 you will not notice the difference.

This does not mean a projector with a very high ansi contrast will not put out a better image than one with a low ansi contrast it will all other things being equal but it will because it will have a higher modulation depth at higher spatial frequencies

if you put up a checkerboard pattern on a projector with an ansi contrast of 200:1 and than put up a checkerboard pattern with an ansi contrast of 800: 1 you will not notice the difference.

Save yourself while you can!

You will likely have invoked the wrath of the ansi contrast mafia. With the possible exception of the color nazis, they are perhaps the most entrenched and feared foe that you are likely to encounter here at AVS.

Please, for your own sake, don't question the foundations of either of these religions.

I understand completely what you mean, but do you think they will? Change screen names while you can!

We might only have a 200:1 contrast if we had a fixed iris. Fortunately, we have a dynamic iris:D

I will agree with you.
There are some very passionate BB employees who enjoy what they are doing and are always willing to learn about the product they are selling.
Usually, when I go into BB, I have researched the product quite Thoroughly because I know more often than not... I'll run into someone who doesn't know anything about what he/she is selling.

Yes, I don't know what the answer is for this type of thing. I mean, if you do all of the research ,know more than the folks selling the prodsuct, then on line sales makes much more sense. However,if you need advice and want to demo Best Buy is a mine field of misinformation and really hit or miss regarding getting an employee who knows anything.

Art

mlang,

I did some testing with a paused image and I could determine a 1500:1 difference in contrast between light and dark components (the pj was only capable of 2707:1 on/off CR and over 400:1 ANSI). I even moved a light part adjacent to the dark part and could still see the difference. I believe what most people are confusing this with is the minimum we can see, rather than the most. Veiling glare also tends to be most effective at a boundary IIRC.

Try the test yourself, and you'll see a great deal more than 200:1. If that was indeed the most we could see, all projectors would look much the same, but they don't. There have been a few discussions here which are well worth a read IMHO.

Gary

mlang,

I did some testing with a paused image and I could determine a 1500:1 difference in contrast between light and dark components (the pj was only capable of 2707:1 on/off CR and over 400:1 ANSI). I even moved a light part adjacent to the dark part and could still see the difference. I believe what most people are confusing this with is the minimum we can see, rather than the most. Veiling glare also tends to be most effective at a boundary IIRC.

Try the test yourself, and you'll see a great deal more than 200:1. If that was indeed the most we could see, all projectors would look much the same, but they don't. There have been a few discussions here which are well worth a read IMHO.

GaryBzztt... Sorry, but that doesn't count. You stared at a static image. The eye has an instantaneous ability to see a CR of about 200:1 to 300:1. If your checkerboard is course enough and static your eyes will adjust as your eyes move through the image alternating between the black and white areas.

Things you dont want to hear from a dealer

(back in the early 80's, when the brand was not as well-known...)

Me: "Hi, do you carry Onkyo?"
Salesman: "Gesundheit!"
Me: (unamused silence)
Saleman: (nervously laughs)
Me: (silence)

[After purchasing a new plasma to add to my lab]

Salesperson: "Do you need any HDMI cables with that?"
Me: "No, I have plenty. This is going into my lab, and I'm pretty self-sufficient on these things since I sell display calibration software."
Salesperson: "Are you sure? You need to make sure that your HDMI cables are HDMI 1.3a compatible."
Me: "I know you guys need to sell cables, but between you and me, for what's available for consumer sources, HDMI 1.3 is largely irrelevant. Ordinary HDMI cables are just fine."
Salesperson: "But you need HDMI 1.3 cables for Blu Ray and HD-DVD."
Me: "No, the advanced audio on the new formats doesn't require any incremental bandwidth on the cable. Only when you go beyond 1080p60 with the deeper bit-depth do you need a tighter electrical spec."
Salesperson: "What's bandwidth?"

It got worse from there. :)

mlang,


Try the test yourself, and you'll see a great deal more than 200:1. If that was indeed the most we could see, all projectors would look much the same, but they don't. There have been a few discussions here which are well worth a read IMHO.

Gary

Wrong Wrong Wrong. All projectors would not look the same. The perceived difference in sharpness arises from difference in modulation depth at high spatial frequencies. There are a not a lot of objects created by the fourier sum of checkerboard spatial frequencies. When you see increased sharpness in an image its because the contrast at say 20lp/mm at the object side has a 40:1 contrast ratio vs a 20:1 contrast ratio

Dr. Raymond Soniera of displaymate has looked at checkerboardrd patterns from crts, lcos displays and dlps and no one can tell the difference. the Eye is a threshold detector with inherent veiling glare.

Put up a checkerboard pattern on the screen in a bat cave and gradually introduce a small amount of light into the room to systematically destroy the Ansi contrast which you can than measure and see if yo can see when the light is on or when it is off.

MTF and MTF at various APL brightness levels and at at all colors at different field points is the best way to characterize the resolution of a projector. ANSI contrast is the retarded sister of MTF

I did have to pay for the speaker wire at an appropriate cost for 14 guage and 16 guage in-wall. The cost of the wire was minor compared to the cost of installation. His standard speaker wire was 22 guage with 20 guage being the upgrade. This would not be sufficient for 400 watts per channel and 50 feet for some of the runs. He had never run any in-wall thicker than 20 guage. I do believe size matters: I am a urologist.

Bill

You are correct in terms of guage, so as long as you didn't pay a premium because it was catlled "THX Ultra", no big deal. There are just so many vendors out there bading things in a similar fashion to command a premium price - unfortunately, for those that do not know any better, they pay it even though the "regular" version works just as well.

I once went into a Best Buy to purchases a DTV HD receiver. I was having a HT party that afternoon and the DTV box fried in the morning.

While I was waiting for my sale to be rung up by my salesman, a second salesman approached with a Monster Cable DVI cable in his hand and told me I would need one of these.

I said why?

He said because a DVI cable was not included in the DTV carton.

I said it wasn't included because I didn't need one.

My projector was a Electrohome 9500LC which had no digital inputs. But he diudn't know that at the time.

He asked me what I had. I said if I told him what I had he would have no clue as to what it was.

He then proceeded to tell me he was a video expert and that I would never know as much as he did.

I lost it. I told him he was an ahole and a lousy salesman to boot. He yelled for his manager, said I called him an ahole, and I was bodily pushed out of the store, I fought my way back to get my Amex card back from the first salesman who was ringing my sale up.

I went accross the street to Circuit City and made my purchase without incidence.

Correct sales technique would have been to compliment me on my purchase and then ask what kind of display I was going to hook it up to, I would have answered. Then he would have asked did it have any digiital inputs. I would have said no. That would have ended it. If I said yes, then he should have said you are probably going to need a DVI cable because one wasn't included in the box. If I in fact neeeded, he would have added value by saving me a trip back to the store to get what I needed.

Wow, I just had violence done against me in a Best Buy, though not as rough.

I asked for a rain-check on a computer that was in their Sunday ad. They contradicted about every rule, proceedure, and price, all in black and white in their ad, and as I had the ad up to my face to read the micro-print to make sure I didn't miss something, some young punk with tats up and down both arms snatched it out of my hands as I was reading it. I never saw it coming as it was near my face and I thought someone was attacking me. That place is the worst.

Wow, I just had violence done against me in a Best Buy, though not as rough.

I asked for a rain-check on a computer that was in their Sunday ad. They contradicted about every rule, proceedure, and price, all in black and white in their ad, .

how did they do that?

Yes, I don't know what the answer is for this type of thing. I mean, if you do all of the research ,know more than the folks selling the prodsuct, then on line sales makes much more sense. However,if you need advice and want to demo Best Buy is a mine field of misinformation and really hit or miss regarding getting an employee who knows anything.

Art

And, (for example) their flat panels are never calibrated properly.
I pretty much only buy moves from them unless they have a great sale on something. :)

...some young punk with tats up and down both arms snatched it out of my hands as I was reading it. I never saw it coming as it was near my face and I thought someone was attacking me. That place is the worst.

Would have been cool if you would have just straight-up jacked him in the nose. I mean, you might have ended up in jail, but the story would have had a more satisfying ending! :D

Wrong Wrong Wrong. All projectors would not look the same. The perceived difference in sharpness arises from difference in modulation depth at high spatial frequencies. There are a not a lot of objects created by the fourier sum of checkerboard spatial frequencies. When you see increased sharpness in an image its because the contrast at say 20lp/mm at the object side has a 40:1 contrast ratio vs a 20:1 contrast ratio

Dr. Raymond Soniera of displaymate has looked at checkerboardrd patterns from crts, lcos displays and dlps and no one can tell the difference. the Eye is a threshold detector with inherent veiling glare.

Put up a checkerboard pattern on the screen in a bat cave and gradually introduce a small amount of light into the room to systematically destroy the Ansi contrast which you can than measure and see if yo can see when the light is on or when it is off.

MTF and MTF at various APL brightness levels and at at all colors at different field points is the best way to characterize the resolution of a projector. ANSI contrast is the retarded sister of MTF

I don't disagree with the importance of MTFand my understanding is that this is quite high in good DLP compared to other technologies but ,despite the fact that ANSI CR is not a great way to measure much ,I can site examples I've seen comparing a high quality three chip DLP to the best CRT based projection where this metric dramtically effects detail in shadows for example.

ANSI pop in mixed scenes is real even to our poor eyes IMO.

Art

Wow, I just had violence done against me in a Best Buy, though not as rough.

I asked for a rain-check on a computer that was in their Sunday ad. They contradicted about every rule, proceedure, and price, all in black and white in their ad, and as I had the ad up to my face to read the micro-print to make sure I didn't miss something, some young punk with tats up and down both arms snatched it out of my hands as I was reading it. I never saw it coming as it was near my face and I thought someone was attacking me. That place is the worst.I would have called the police. That is assault.

From Wikipedia:
"In common law, assault is the tort of acting intentionally and voluntarily causing the reasonable apprehension of an immediate harmful or offensive contact. Because assault requires intent, it is considered an intentional tort, as opposed to a tort of negligence. It is important to note that actual ability to carry out the apprehended contact is not necessary: an assault can take place with a toy gun, for example.

As distinguished from battery, assault need not to involve actual contact—it only needs intent and the resulting apprehension. For example, wielding a knife can be construed as assault if a fearful situation was created."

Bzztt... Sorry, but that doesn't count. You stared at a static image. The eye has an instantaneous ability to see a CR of about 200:1 to 300:1. If your checkerboard is course enough and static your eyes will adjust as your eyes move through the image alternating between the black and white areas.

You've stated the common misconception backwards - most people quote the 200:1 number as the max that can be seen in a static image because the as the eye saccades with movement, adaption is said to take place to allow perception of other areas. The image was initially static because that's the only way I could reliably measure the readings. Image detail was still visible when it was moving so proves that under both conditions detail at that range of contrast was visible. If 200:1 was all we can see, then we'd never be able to determine an entire scene that exceeded that range.

200:1 is often heard as the most we can see when the data is actually referring to direct view CRT. I asked Joel Silver about it and even he acknowledged that and further agreed that we can see a great deal in magnitude more than that.

And of course the test counts. The contrast range between the images was as measured, and I could determine the difference - try it yourself. If I could see only 200:1 or 300:1 (where did you get those numbers?) then I could not have seen the darker images when looking at the brighter image. If you want to cripple how the eye works and not count either chemical or iris adaption (which is slower and not part of this test in this case) then that's disregarding how the eye is designed to work and allow us to see considerably greater numbers.

I could see the dark and light parts simultaneously when the the parts were both within the foveal pit's direct field of view and when one part was in that FOV and the other part of the image wasn't. The test I did involved not only the light and dark parts I mention (actually 1100:1 difference), but by using the mouse pointer I was getting around 1500:1 which I could move about. The number you're referring to is either at a boundary or the minimum we can see, not the most.

read this for more info:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=775681&highlight=contrast

Gary

Wrong Wrong Wrong. All projectors would not look the same. The perceived difference in sharpness arises from difference in modulation depth at high spatial frequencies. There are a not a lot of objects created by the fourier sum of checkerboard spatial frequencies. When you see increased sharpness in an image its because the contrast at say 20lp/mm at the object side has a 40:1 contrast ratio vs a 20:1 contrast ratio

Dr. Raymond Soniera of displaymate has looked at checkerboardrd patterns from crts, lcos displays and dlps and no one can tell the difference. the Eye is a threshold detector with inherent veiling glare.

Put up a checkerboard pattern on the screen in a bat cave and gradually introduce a small amount of light into the room to systematically destroy the Ansi contrast which you can than measure and see if yo can see when the light is on or when it is off.

MTF and MTF at various APL brightness levels and at at all colors at different field points is the best way to characterize the resolution of a projector. ANSI contrast is the retarded sister of MTF

200:1 at a boundary considering veiling glare is probably accurate, but doing the test I did with real images proves that we can determine a great deal more contrast either static or in motion, and without iris adaption (which increases the range incredibly).

If we could only see 200:1 we could not tell the difference between a 500:1 pj with grey blacks or a 5000:1 pj with blacker blacks. Plus we couldn't see all that extra detail, but we can.

Gary

... this thread started off so light and fun :mad:

To play lawyer, the act constituted cival assault and batterynot criminal assault and battery.The police would not make a criminal arrest and, if they did, the magistrate would have dismissed it. you could have initiated a civil suit but ansent any provable harm, the assessment of enough judgement to pay your attornet fees would be highly unlikely. Walk away as you did, and shop elsewhere.

For the record, I'm on Gary's side. Yes, we can see more than 200:1 simultaneous intra-scene contrast. Yes, yes, yes. And this has been discussed so often that I'm surpised some people still believe otherwise. Now all we need is for Tbrunet and DarinP to show up and have a throw down and this can be just like old times.

Seriously, can we go back to complaining about sales people? That was a lot more fun! :D

To play lawyer, the act constituted cival assault and batterynot criminal assault and battery.The police would not make a criminal arrest and, if they did, the magistrate would have dismissed it. you could have initiated a civil suit but ansent any provable harm, the assessment of enough judgement to pay your attornet fees would be highly unlikely. Walk away as you did, and shop elsewhere.

I am sure we got the entire story.:rolleyes:

The police would not make a criminal arrest and, if they did, the magistrate would have dismissed it. Magistrate? You mean judge? Or are we in Great Britain?

Things you don't want to hear:

"Fed-ex says your wife refused delivery"

Ok keeping with the spirit of this post things i don't want hear from a salesman

this projector really has a lot of ANSI pop and ANSI contrast is the most important specification

Oh and by the way I'm ****ing your wife too.

When the salesman starts quoting how great this particular projector is... and his source is AVS forum!

When the salesman starts quoting how great this particular projector is... and his source is AVS forum!Not a bad thing at all! I wish more salesmen would read these forums.