I made the leap. got my coupon and went out and bought the Insignia box.. Prebox I got 7 VHF stations and 4 UHF stations on most days, some days more. I plug the box in did the scan and while it says I get 10 channels 5 of them are more pixilated and off then they are on and 3 are my PBS .. In looking at my location on TV Fool I see that my locals are using the same towers so my distance hasnt really changed.. What I find interesting is that the VHF channels that I got the best are now the digitals that i cant get clear and the UHF that were more atmospheric condition related are now the ones I can view..

I am new at this but I take it that my UHF antenna that couldnt pull in much is now the one doing most of the work. I guess the box is working, but its not going to make my wife happy to find out no more local news when this thing finally kicks in.. Where is the best place to turn to see if I have more options? perhaps a better antenna, better booster, get my rotor working again.. I am also concerned that once the leaves come back I may be even worse off..

Well, here's the best place, but you'll have to post more info like your ZIP and TV Fool info, current antenna, where it's mounted etc.

Option 1 is to do nothing; it may be your digitals are currently not running at full power and come 2009, they will be. It's also likely that some of them will change channel assignments. I believe TVFool now has that information as well.

The other options amount to various combinations of bigger, better placed, and/or additional antenna(s), better cabling, and amplification.

my zip is 13092. i attached my info picture from tv fool.. all my channels seem to be in the same general direction.

"upperdeck"
please describe you current antenna setup. Internal, external, on the roof, on the side of house, etc. Initial impression is you are going to need a "better" antenna setup to overcome the "threshold" minimum signal level for ATSC tuners

I have a VHF and UHF antenna combined on the roof, running with coax to the inside.. I also am using a booster.

Perhaps the first thing would be to run a new UHF antenna and see if things improve. I dont know if its the antenna, an aimming issue or the cable itself?

so many variables.

I'll second m_vanmeter, and I won't laugh if you're starting with a UHF loop, because that's where I started. Your reception pattern looks even worse than mine; my weakest station signal is -77.6 dBi and it comes in better and better as I've upgraded my antenna. I bet your will, too.
Have fun,
Frank

"upperdeck"
I suggest starting with a quality high gain UHF antenna, Winegard or Channel Master. If your coax lead is more than 7 or 8 years old, replace it with high grade Belden or Times RG6 coax and new weatherproof "F" connectors. Using tvfool.com or antennaweb.org get the compass direction to the stations you want to receive so you can aim your antenna. Try your new antenna setup without an in-line amplifier first. If the results still need some help, than try a quality UHF in-line preamp from Winegard or Channel Master.

TV antennas are NOT a science, they are truly a "black art" of trial and error experimentation based on a whole list of variables, as you noted.

Since most of your stations are 180 degrees +/- opposed to each other, it is possible a flat "bed spring" type bow tie antenna like the Channel Master 4228 may work best by actually receiving signal off the back side. Some folks have actually taken the wire mesh reflector off and left just the bow ties in an attempt to get better signal off the back of the antenna - weird, but like I said, experiment !

Prebox I got 7 VHF stations and 4 UHF stations on most days, some days more. I plug the box in did the scan and while it says I get 10 channels 5 of them are more pixilated and off then they are on and 3 are my PBS .. In looking at my location on TV Fool I see that my locals are using the same towers so my distance hasnt really changed.. What I find interesting is that the VHF channels that I got the best are now the digitals that i cant get clear and the UHF that were more atmospheric condition related are now the ones I can view..

I'm assuming that the 7 pre-box VHF stations were analog? If so, a number of them are likely on UHF for DTV at this point. Which stations are you not able to get?

Examples of Syracuse stations which were on VHF for analog, but UHF for DTV are: WSYR (9A/17D), WSTM (3A/54D), WTVH (5A/47D). WSTM will be moving to 24, post transition, pending Canadian approval.

WETM, out of Elmira, is currently on 2 for DTV, vs. 18 for analog, but will be returning to 18.

I have a VHF and UHF antenna combined on the roof, running with coax to the inside.. I also am using a booster.

Perhaps the first thing would be to run a new UHF antenna and see if things improve. I dont know if its the antenna, an aimming issue or the cable itself?

so many variables.

I would start first with the cable, especially if it's old, since moisture intrusion will degrade the signal over time. Find the length you need from the antenna to the grounding block, and buy a good, commercially-terminated cable of the correct length to replace it. Do the same from the grounding block into the house. (If there's no grounding block, add one per the NEC.) Wrap all the outside connections in PVC tape to keep the moisture out.

You mention a booster, I'll guess that's indoors, not on the antenna? If it's not on the antenna, it's not helping much and could be hurting - try removing it. If the booster is on the antenna, it should also have a small power supply on the coax at the TV end. Make sure the power supply is working.

You can always replace your antenna, but you're likely to replace the down lead and mast amplifier when you do. Why not make sure they're not the problem? It's possible that your antenna's fine, it's signal is just not getting through to the tuner. Plus co-ax is cheap compared with amplifiers and antennas.

Your reception pattern from TVFool looks a lot like my in-law's and you've already taken the first step of my plan for them - get a CECB and see if there's a reception issue. Then replace the cheap stuff before trying a big new antenna.

I use the word "cheap" advisedly, under the assumption you're likely to shop AVSForum advertisers like MonoPrice where quad-shielded cable is under $12 for 100 ft. Cheap also applies to safety, since accidents aren't cheap. Be careful on roofs, near power lines, and obey all NEC grounding requirements, or make sure your installer does.

Have fun,
Frank

I just looked at this post quickly so take this with a LARGE grain of salt. One thing which screws digital sometimes is counterintuitive. Too much signal may mean signals are bouncing off objects creating multi-path interference which make good stations horrid. Is it possible you have too much signal, pre-amp, antenna, etc?

TerryB

I have an amplifier on the mast and a booster in the house. without the amplifier I dont get most anything. without the booster I dont get a clean signal in the house.. I may replace the coax when the weather turns before I go to the next step.. I did some more testing yesterday and moved the box from the rooms inside the house to the basement where the signal enters..

my signal comes into the house to the amplifier then to the booster then to an 8 way splitter to all the rooms.. moving the box to before the split gets the same signal. moving it to then before the booster stays the same and before the amplifier I get no signal for anything..

replacint the coax is probably the next easiest step except its going to be awhile before I can get on my roof..

I could try a new antenna setup but it would be at ground level for now.

Someone mentioned the various signals.. One thing is that two stations are using the same tower.. my digital 3.1 and 24.1 the 24.1 I can get the 3.1 fades in and out.. the difference is that the real 3.1 is in the uhf 50's and the other is at 25 . the manager at the digital 3.1 station thought my antenna isnt receieving upper uhf's very well? which could be the issue as I also cant get the 68 very well? do uhf antennas work that way? getting some better than others?

Thanks for the clarification; you have both amp and booster. Sounds like a well-designed installation.

As to replacing the outdoor downlead, you do that from the roof, too, along with the lead from antenna to amp. Sorry!

Yes, there is substantial variation in antenna performance. If you know what you've got up there today, that would help. Same with the amplifier; some are better than others in a manner that makes a difference here. I'll bet that ground level test results won't be satisfactory or accurate; the altitude you gain putting it on the roof is a bigger help than any antenna change.

Most UHF antennas I've seen are biased toward higher channels, but the UHF section of a VHF/UHF combo might not be. Low signal is more likely, though, as I see 3.1, real 54, is -98.7 dBm signal on your TVFool projection, compared with 24.1, real 25, at -95.2 dBm. That's a 2x (3 dB) difference before your antenna.

Have fun,
Frank

Well I'm back after a month of testing.. I went out and bought a cm4228 and a Channel Master CM 7777 PreAmp.

If anything the results of using the cm4228 leave me more confused. using the antenna at ground level I would get the same stations as before and if I move the antenna MM's at a time I could get one of the digital channels 3 - 5 - 9 but never more than 1 at a time. If I put the Antenna on the roof I was unable to get any of the channels no matter how I turned it.

the old antenna still did better for the most part even with the old cable run and old Preamp.

What has me confused is that my digital channels at 19, 44, 25 all come in at a real high signal strength and it almost doesnt matter what direction I aim the antenna in 90 degrees off line they are still viewable. My other digitals 17, 47, 54 are almost impossible to get at all with 17 barely able to register a signal..

Now if 2 of my signals are on the same tower 25 and 54 and the difference in signal is 95.2 and 98.7 does it make sense that I can get 25 easily but 54 not at all?

i am under 30 miles for almost everything so I wonder if some other antenna will do a better job?

Well I'm back after a month of testing.. I went out and bought a cm4228 and a Channel Master CM 7777 PreAmp.

If anything the results of using the cm4228 leave me more confused. using the antenna at ground level I would get the same stations as before and if I move the antenna MM's at a time I could get one of the digital channels 3 - 5 - 9 but never more than 1 at a time. If I put the Antenna on the roof I was unable to get any of the channels no matter how I turned it.
Did you try the CM 4228 on the roof without the pre-amp? You can't just unplug the pre-amp because that results in no signal getting through the pre-amp; you have to bypass it entirely in the cable run to test performance w/o it. The pre-amp may be overloading the front end of the digital tuner with a station at only 14 miles.

Also, your tvfool.com list shows two digital stations currently on VHF low. Are you using a VHF antenna to get those? If I had seen your tvfool list earlier, I might have recommend a CM 4221 4 bay for UHF and a medium range VHF antenna combination as the more optimum approach.

No I had the preamp plugged in with the new antenna and left all my old equipment in place. I am not trying to get any of the digital VHF stations just the stuff on the uhf.

Please describe how your analog reception looks.

If your antenna performs worse on the roof, it sounds like you have overload. Try the 4228 w/o the pre-amp, but remember to completely remove both the pre-amp and power module from the system. Always unplug the power module before making any changes.

I think I have some ideas of what's wrong, could you answer me these questions:

-What's the terrain like in you area? Flat? Hilly? Mountainous? Do you live in a city with large buildings? Do you have trees? Do you have pines?

-What does your analog look like? Are there ghosts? If so, how many/how intense?

-Ever seen herringbone patterns on VHF channels? (That's FM interference).

-Do you get sparkles or other crap on your analog channels? If so, how bad?

-Could you post a picture or two of the current antenna?

-Where's the antenna currently positioned?

-What make/model of pre-amp are you using? They run from super high quality (the $300 units with .02db NF) to the POS 6db NF overload prone crap found at Wal-Mart).

-What's the make/model of the distro amp?

Troubleshooting ideas:
-Disconnect the coax line from the CECB, and connect it directly to the output of the pre-amp's power supply. What does it do to the signal? Check the analog, too.

-Try replacing the current pre with the 7777. That should yield a difference.

-Even if the rotator's frozen, manually change the direction of the antenna, and point them directly at different stations.

-Just for the heck of it, swap out the current UHF antenna with the 4228.


Possible answers:

-The 4228 is getting enough signal on the roof that it's overloading the distro amp, pre-amp or both. Looking at the analog stations should give you some answers.

-Your current rooftop setup is frozen in an odd/not optimal direction.

-You've got strong multipath, and it's killing the signal.

-You've got trees or an airport near by that's causing dum dum dum.... dynamic multipath.

upperdeck,

This thread is much more informative and interesting than your title initially led me to believe. May I suggest renaming it to something like:

Now That I Have My NEW CECB, Must I Replace My OLD Antenna and Amps?

IMHO, you may attract the interest of some LURKers in the same situation as you who may otherwise just skip over this thread (and miss out!).

Thanks!

mattdp,

As someone who doesn't deal with OTA on a regular basis (and, since getting cable, hasn't given it any thought in YEARS), I found your reply to upperdeck so useful that I took the liberty of formatting it (and slightly re-wording it) so that I could print it out for future reference. I hope you don't mind.

(Originally Posted by mattdp)


User Questionaire: What's the terrain like in your area?
- Flat?
- Hilly?
- Mountainous?
Do you live in a city with large buildings?
Do you have trees?
- Pine trees?
.
What do your Analog/NTSC channels look like?
Are there ghosts?
- If so, how many/how intense?
.
Ever seen herringbone patterns on your VHF channels? (That's FM interference).
.
Do you get sparkles, or other crap, on your Analog/NTSC channels?
- If so, how bad?
.
Could you post a picture or two of your current antenna?
.
In what direction is your antenna currently positioned?
.
What's the make/model of your Pre-Amp?
[They run from super high quality (the $300 units with .02db NF) to the POS 6db NF overload prone crap found at Wal-Mart).]
.
What's the make/model of your Distribution Amp?

Troubleshooting Ideas: Disconnect the coax line from the CECB, and connect it directly to the output of the Pre-Amp's power supply.
- What does it do to the Digital/ATSC signal?
- What does it do to the Analog/NTSC signal?
.
Try replacing the current Pre-Amp with the Channel Master 7777. That should yield a difference.
.
Even if the rotor's frozen, manually change the direction of the antenna and point it directly at different stations.
.
Just for the heck of it, swap out the current UHF antenna with the Channel Master 4228.

Possible Answers: The 4228 is getting enough signal on the roof that it's overloading the Distribution Amp, Pre-Amp or both.
- Looking at the Analog/NTSC channels should give you some answers.
.
Your current rooftop setup is frozen in an odd/not optimal direction.
.
You've got strong multipath, and it's killing the signal.
.
You've got trees, or an airport, near by that's causing dum dum dum.... dynamic multipath.

I am just about ready to give up on the whole digital revolution. My old antenna and preamp give me a better signal than every new antenna I have tried and my CM 7778.

one thing that i finally discovered today after crawling around the roof between storms is that my old preamp seems to be installed in a wierd way.

my antenna connects to the leads then into antenna part of the 7778 then down inside the house to the power part of the 7778 and then into my old amp which I thought was a booster but it turns out its a 15-1108A from radio shack..

after seeing this I went back on the roof and found the other part of the RS preamp was connected to the UHF side of my old VHF antenna.. I removed the power part of my 7778 and the signal stays the same.

If I removed the RS preamp and leave the 7778 connected I get almost no picture. so the RS is doing something right.

In addition to struggling to get any decent signals I now think the diplexor is blocking signals as well on some tv's..

its just frustrating to get 24 on my analog tv almost completely clear and then not be able to 25 on my digital box connected to the same tv.

Try putting the 4228 in your living room. Seriously. It might be easier to debug problems if you're on solid ground. Then once the debugging is done, and you're satisfied with results, raise it back to the roof. What I find interesting is that the VHF channels that I got the best are now the digitals that i cant get clear Most VHF channels are broadcasting weak UHF digital, but they will probably return to VHF after the shutdown. See tvfool.com to see pre-and-post February 2009.

I am just about ready to give up on the whole digital revolution. My old antenna and preamp give me a better signal than every new antenna I have tried and my CM 7778.

I have a CM7777 preamp, which has a switch inside that switches between combined or separate UHF/VHF inputs. If your 7778 has the same, make sure it's at the right setting - if it's amplifying VHF only then that explains why the radio shack preamp is useful. It may also be acting as a 300 ohm to 75 ohm converter?

My setup is: VHF/UHF rooftop antenna -> 300 to 75ohm balun -> CM7777 preamp (combined input) -> down the wall -> grounding block into house -> CM7777 power supply -> 3db attenuator -> 8-way distribution amplifier (3db amplification per channel).