Just want to get a general consensus on what folks are calibrating their subs to.

I have my JL F113 currently set 3-4db HOT above reference (75db) and i think it sounds sort of thin and could use some more db's!

I set my receiver to 0. I adjust the volume on the sub to my liking. Usually never past 11:00. I only use the spl meter on the front & rear spekers.

Just want to get a general consensus on what folks are calibrating their subs to.

I have my JL F113 currently set 3-4db HOT above reference (75db) and i think it sounds sort of thin and could use some more db's!

set my tower also 3-4 db hot. shakes the house, the whole house when watching movies-20 ref.
it might be your room. i doubt it is your sub.

Agree!

I just tried 6-7db HOT and the F113 came alive!!! I couldn't stop smiling :eek:

From what i'm reading most are doing 3db only.

I run 2.5dB hot for music, and 5dB for movies. I have a SMS-1 which has presets so it's really easy to switch back and forth

I'm running at least 6 db above reference. Its really rediculous. I think it actually got to me last weeking during LOTR, I started to feel dizzy and weird. But usually that same level just kicks ass.

6 db above

using an SPL meter, i calibrate my subs 86db versus 80 for the other channels.
sometimes i up the SMS-1 volume by 10, but i don't know how much that equates to db's.

I'm at 6db above the 75db reference. I also love the shaking room part! I've also confirmed the shaking outside the house also.:D

For music I usually run my subs between flat and 1 dB hot. For HT I'll keep it either at 1 dB hot or sometimes increase it to 2-3dB hot.

For music, 2db hot, movies 10db hot.

But it depends on where you set your Gain control too. They work together in tandem. I have only had my sub for one week, and I have been running it +2 to +4 depending on what it is I am watching and if I am interested in the music/background audio. My Gain is around 11:00.... But I have not even calibrated any of my speakers with a SLM yet. I just got one at Radioshack this evening :D I better get crackin' :eek:

I set my receiver to 0. I adjust the volume on the sub to my liking. Usually never past 11:00. I only use the spl meter on the front & rear spekers.

why not the sub?

I run mine about 5 db hotter than reference.

sourbeef,

What we mean by x db hot is a relative measurement of SPL in decibels. How many more decibels loud is your subwoofer that your main speakers.

This is different than the subwoofer trim level on the receiver, which is what you are referring to.

The actaul measured SPL level of the subwoofer is a result of the gain control setting on the subwoofer amp, and the subwoofer trim level on the receiver. Once the relative SPL is calibrated, then the receiver trim can be used to raise or lower that level by specific amounts + or - db. So yes, they do work together in tandem. For example, I run my sub with the gain knob on the subwoofer amp at about the 9:00 position, and the subwoofer trim level on the receiver at -2.0 , which together yield a calibrated subwoofer SPL level which is approximately 3 db louder, or "hot", relative to my main speakers.

Tim

sourbeef,

What we mean by x db hot is a relative measurement of SPL in decibels. How many more decibels loud is your subwoofer that your main speakers.

This is different than the subwoofer trim level on the receiver, which is what you are referring to.

The actaul measured SPL level of the subwoofer is a result of the gain control setting on the subwoofer amp, and the subwoofer trim level on the receiver. Once the relative SPL is calibrated, then the receiver trim can be used to raise or lower that level by specific amounts + or - db. So yes, they do work together in tandem. For example, I run my sub with the gain knob on the subwoofer amp at about the 9:00 position, and the subwoofer trim level on the receiver at -2.0 , which together yield a calibrated subwoofer SPL level which is approximately 3 db louder, or "hot", relative to my main speakers.

Tim

But aren't we still referring to the same basic thing. I may have not calibrated my speakers/sub with a SPL meter yet, but I did run Audyssey on my Onkyo 705 which supposedly equalized them, they were all set to 0.0 except the front left was set at -1.0. So when I go into the receiver menu and change the calibration of the sub level by +2 or +4db, are we not doing the same thing in terms of running our subs HOT?

I set my receiver to 0. I adjust the volume on the sub to my liking. Usually never past 11:00. I only use the spl meter on the front & rear spekers.
:eek:

I think you will get better results if you balance the sub with your mains. You can then use the line level output from your receiver to fine tune it to your liking.


Ian ;)

using an SPL meter, i calibrate my subs 86db versus 80 for the other channels.
sometimes i up the SMS-1 volume by 10, but i don't know how much that equates to db's.

Out of curiousity, when you say "86 db vs 80", are you using the Avia Left Front / Sub sweep pattern? If so, wouldn't that mean you're more like 7 to 9 db hot as I thought with the Avia patterns (possibly any sweep) an SPL meter on slow in C weighting would read 2 to 3 db lower. I.e., calibrate at 82/83db and the other speakers at 85 with Avia to match sub to mains?

But it depends on where you set your Gain control too. They work together in tandem. I have only had my sub for one week, and I have been running it +2 to +4 depending on what it is I am watching and if I am interested in the music/background audio. My Gain is around 11:00.... But I have not even calibrated any of my speakers with a SLM yet. I just got one at Radioshack this evening :D I better get crackin' :eek:

They are talking about db's using a SPL meter not level settings. I run my sub 4 db hot.

I calibrate seven channels and add sub to taste.

KG

i set sub level on receiver to -5. then using test tones on receiver and a spl meter i set gain on the sub at 78db. this way i can move sub vol. up and down using receiver, also allowing plenty of head room for receiver.
this seems to work well for me. the -5 is just habit due to the ed a2-300s that would continually bottom out while watching movies at -20 ref. vol.

Just want to get a general consensus on what folks are calibrating their subs to.

I have my JL F113 currently set 3-4db HOT above reference (75db) and i think it sounds sort of thin and could use some more db's!

So i re-calibrated the whole system using AVIA instead of the built-in tones in my RSX-1057 and was surprised to find that the sub was off by at least 6db!!!:eek: No wonder it sounded so thin!

It now sounds PHENOMENAL!

I run about 2-3db HOT for music and 5-6db HOT for movies.

So when I go into the receiver menu and change the calibration of the sub level by +2 or +4db, are we not doing the same thing in terms of running our subs HOT?

Yes, the end effect is the same. However, sometimes due to room interaction, adjusting the level at the receiver does not necessarily translate to the same dB increase at your ear. If you do use the receiver setting, it's easy to verify for yourself how much hotter the sub is running using the SPL meter

I noticed that when taking a sub reading from my analog RS SPL meter, the needle jumps from 0db - 3 db. Do you take the average of this or the min/max level??

How are folks determining the sub level from their analog RadioShack meters to get a defined HOT level??

I usually average. I set my IB sub level by ear after eq. I checked the level today with a meter and it was 4-6db "hot". So it's about 5db hot. How hot you run depends on how loud you listen, how much impact you like, extension, compression, etc.

I'm probably 6db hot on most content. I know where calibrated is and on some content I will back it down, but rarely. Usually I go up even more if I don't feel it's enough. :)

I'm at 6db above the 75db reference. I also love the shaking room part! I've also confirmed the shaking outside the house also.:D

Same here!

3-4db hot.

Does using the receiver vs the sub for gain effect distortion sent to the sub? From what I have read, for example, with the SMS-1 is that it is better to have your receiver at -10 then use the SMS-1 for volume due to the distortion level of the reciever signal.

Just what I have read from SMS-1 users, so I thought it might be the same just with the receiver level control vs the sub gain knob on the sub itself

From what I have read if your receiver is for example is (-10 to +10). Your receiver should be set to -5. Hope this helps.

Later, Daman

i set sub level on receiver to -5. then using test tones on receiver and a spl meter i set gain on the sub at 78db. this way i can move sub vol. up and down using receiver, also allowing plenty of head room for receiver.
this seems to work well for me. the -5 is just habit due to the ed a2-300s that would continually bottom out while watching movies at -20 ref. vol.



I doubt that. A volume control set to -20 dB below calibrated "reference level" is not loud at all. If you bottom out at the calibrated -20 dB volume setting, what happens when you turn the system up to a normal lsitening level? Did you even bother to calibrate your master volume control to "reference level"?

Note that a lot of receivers do not use 0 dB as the "reference level" setting. With my particular receiver and speakers, -22 dB is the calibrated "reference level" master volume setting. 0 dB is just the maximum preamp volume setting that is calibrated to nothing at all. 0 dB in my system just means the master volume is all the way up (AKA 22 dB above calibrated "reference level").

Scanido,

You may also want to experiment with the "ELF Trim" if you haven't already on the JL 113. I've used it on occasion and it can assist with a bit more punch.

Th e Extreme Low Frequency (“e.l.f. trim”) knob allows the user to apply a certain amount of signal equalization at 25 Hertz (extremely low bass). At full counterclockwise rotation, the signal at 25 Hz is cut by 12 dB. At “0” the equalizer is set fl at for zero contribution to the signal. At full clockwise rotation, the signal at 25 Hz is boosted by 3 dB.

Th e E.L.F. Trim feature is useful for tailoring the Fathom’s very low frequency output for your particular room. Adding some boost can make certain material more exciting. Using the cut function can help to compensate for room or boundary gain in the low frequencies. Room boundaries and the room’s finite (limited) size naturally cause very low frequencies to be boosted relative to other parts of the signal. As such, using the E.L.F. Trim feature to cut the lowest frequencies can help to tame “bloat” or unnatural sounding low bass in small to medium sized rooms (and can also reduce unwanted vibrations in the room or throughout the house).

I doubt that. A volume control set to -20 dB below calibrated "reference level" is not loud at all. If you bottom out at the calibrated -20 dB volume setting, what happens when you turn the system up to a normal lsitening level? Did you even bother to calibrate your master volume control to "reference level"?

Note that a lot of receivers do not use 0 dB as the "reference level" setting. With my particular receiver and speakers, -22 dB is the calibrated "reference level" master volume setting. 0 dB is just the maximum preamp volume setting that is calibrated to nothing at all. 0 dB in my system just means the master volume is all the way up (AKA 22 dB above calibrated "reference level").
have onkyo 705 set levels to 75db with meter with test tones. receiver trims all like + or - 1,2 db. so wouldnt 0 on receiver volumn be ref. at 75 db.? thats what they are doing on the onkyo forums.

Scanido,

You may also want to experiment with the "ELF Trim" if you haven't already on the JL 113. I've used it on occasion and it can assist with a bit more punch.

awesome! I'll try it at full throttle tonight!

Ok I have to ask.

when you say for example "6db hot" and you calibrate the speakers to "75db" on the meter........

do you mean that you set the sub at "81db" on the meter?

Or are you using correction tables etc. and setting the sub to a "true" 6db hot (which would probably be at about 78db on the meter)? Taking into consideration that the spl meter is not as sensitive to low frequency.

Thanks

Or are you using correction tables etc. and setting the sub to a "true" 6db hot (which would probably be at about 78db on the meter)? Taking into consideration that the spl meter is not as sensitive to low frequency.This is the correct answer.


Tim

This is the correct answer.


Tim

Cool thanks, I am calibrating this weekend after updating my avr's firmware:D

Ok I have to ask.

when you say for example "6db hot" and you calibrate the speakers to "75db" on the meter........

do you mean that you set the sub at "81db" on the meter?

Or are you using correction tables etc. and setting the sub to a "true" 6db hot (which would probably be at about 78db on the meter)? Taking into consideration that the spl meter is not as sensitive to low frequency.

Thanks

In my case with the F113, I am turning down the ELF down -3db which is essentially lowering the gain in the 25hz region which is around the correction factors of the RS meter. This way it almost takes into account the insensitivity of the RS meter. I then calibrate to 78db for the sub.

I run my F112 @ 77db per SPL meter for both music and movies.

Or are you using correction tables etc. and setting the sub to a "true" 6db hot (which would probably be at about 78db on the meter)? Taking into consideration that the spl meter is not as sensitive to low frequency.

Thanks

The LFE test signal on Avia is pink noise so the accuracy isn't as much as say, a 20hz sine wave.

10hz........+20db
12.5hz.....+16.5db
16hz........+11.5db
20hz........+7.5db
25hz........+5db
31.5hz.....+3db
40hz........+2.5db
50hz........+1.5db
63hz........+1.5db
80hz........+1.5db
100hz......+2db

Maybe +2db off overall.

Seated near field from my two subs, I run them @74db.



Ian

That's not very loud at all...

I set my receiver to -6 for movies and -9 for music on my +/-12 scale. I only had the gain to about 10 o'clock. This translated to about 3dbs hotter than my mains for movies and about flat for most music. this was uncorrected on my meter so I may like it just a bit hotter than that. My mains aren't the greatest and slightly lack some kick in the 80-120hz range so this may account for the large number--or I might just be a bass junkie. This is Of course this left me tons of head room for when I wanted to play and flex the walls. I found that on many DD tracks I would find myself wanting a bit more and often bumped it up to -4 or even -3. DTS tracks there was rarely a need. however when I was showing off and doing demos I have been known to run it up to 0. It doesn't sound that great overall, but it gets your pants flapping. I accidently watched Hitchhiker's guide with it left at 0 at a very spirited level. That was one of only 2 times where I actually worried about the sub. The other was the robot emerging scene the first time in WOW with it at -3.

2-3dbl for music 5-6 for movie when my girl isn't around on my f113.

Djoel

That's not very loud at all...

Let me clarify. When running test tones, my Pioneer receiver sets the spl level automatically, which average out on my mains to 70db. Therefore after calibration, both subs togeather, at the seating position, are actually running 4db hot.

Ian

have onkyo 705 set levels to 75db with meter with test tones. receiver trims all like + or - 1,2 db. so wouldnt 0 on receiver volumn be ref. at 75 db.? thats what they are doing on the onkyo forums.


If you set the master volume level to 0dB and the measured speaker levels are all 75 dB when calibrating with the receivers test tones, then yes 0 dB master volume on the receiver is will give you "reference level" volume.

Your subwoofer should never bottom out at a master volume of 20 dB below this level (AKA master volume at -20 dB with RL = 0 dB). If it does, then you subwoofer is an issue.


.

I set mine 8-10 db's hot :D It's just the way I like it LOUD!

I did some more testing and find that if i go over 3db HOT above my mains the sub becomes more localized on some frequencies.

Just want to get a general consensus on what folks are calibrating their subs to.

I have my JL F113 currently set 3-4db HOT above reference (75db) and i think it sounds sort of thin and could use some more db's!


Definitely try some bass traps and an eq. It could very well sound "thin" because you have one or two giant peaks throwing off the calibration, leaving other frequencies sounding thin.


Check out this before and after using a $100 piece of equipment:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2408/2319253607_2665879bfb.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3184/2319253573_d4db454492.jpg

Definitely try some bass traps and an eq. It could very well sound "thin" because you have one or two giant peaks throwing off the calibration, leaving other frequencies sounding thin.


Check out this before and after using a $100 piece of equipment:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2408/2319253607_2665879bfb.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3184/2319253573_d4db454492.jpg

I agree. When someone says that a subwoofer sounds "thin" this means that you have a gap in your upper bass caused by room or speaker bass cancellations. It will make your music sound terrible and your movies will lack the boom from explosions. It doesn't matter how great your subwoofer is, placement is key and then bass traps if you need to even the response out further. You will find that after your bass response is much flatter that you will have less of a desire to set your sub to be hotter than the rest of your speakers.

For the thread, I don't set anything in my system hot especially my sub. I want my bass to sound as natural as possible in music and in movies.

If you set the master volume level to 0dB and the measured speaker levels are all 75 dB when calibrating with the receivers test tones, then yes 0 dB master volume on the receiver is will give you "reference level" volume.

Your subwoofer should never bottom out at a master volume of 20 dB below this level (AKA master volume at -20 dB with RL = 0 dB). If it does, then you subwoofer is an issue.


.
same thought as i had, its an ed a2-300. i have 2 of them one bottoms out all the time. and yes they were leveled seperatly with a spl meter.
since switching to the epik tower no more problems at any level. i have just turned off the god awful ugly ed subs, and life is good.
now the question is what to do with the ed subs? might be good for the little theater upstairs, but still so ugly.

I'm at 6db above the 75db reference. I also love the shaking room part! I've also confirmed the shaking outside the house also.:D

I guess so, a few db within technical tolerance performance levels, seems to be a safe margin. I was going to do a different test of sort a few nights back. But this is for a friend because his Yamaha subs tend to make a few popping sounds or more rather its close to bottoming out.

I’d like to test my new procedure on my home cinema first before tackling with his a bit further. It was last Tuesday night I made a few sub bass improvements without the use of SPL db meter.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee18/DemolitionMan3417/Jonshomecinema4.jpg

Also you’ll note there is glass panel door in the room, now placed above it was plastic stain-glass feature that buzzed and vibrated and so I took care of that within 1 minute, with piece of cardboard stuffed between the gap to tighten it up, because the (Ironside flip in Transformers) dulls down along with high peak at 40Hz!

I just used Transformers and along with a second Yamaha YST SW not sure of the model number and his other Yamaha YST SW 150 a few long RCA phone leads and a bit of re-plugging and listing and feeling as well because I was looking for (fast attack on the slam bass sounds).

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee18/DemolitionMan3417/Jonshomecinema5.jpg

What you can see placed to the Yamaha sub is the model down from the Kenwood KRF-X9050D THX select this was given to him along with the second Yamaha sub bass which is placed besides the couch.

I undone the THX 80Hz crossover because bass management is PANTS with a single sub bass too many errors happen within it.

With everything set to large while I only used the pre-out-puts from the Kenwood KRF-X9050D THX select. Things started to get a little bit better than before.

With the Yamaha YST SW 150 placed up front as seen here and with the second Yamaha YST SW placed to the right-hand-side of the couch and after a bit of trail an error with the crossover filter setting, I managed to get a tighter in-room sub bass.

LFE.1 and centre was sent to the Yamaha YST SW 150 via RCA phone leads.

Left and right fronts where sent to the second Yamaha YST SW.

Sadly the surrounds have to rely on the bipolar as there wasn’t any more room left-over to feed the surrounds into a sub bass, unless I had a simple audio mixer and use the inputs on it stuffed with the five primary directional channels and the LFE.1 in one of the inputs. Then set the mixers (pan pots) to output to different subs though its stereo main outputs.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee18/DemolitionMan3417/Jonshomecinema6.jpg

Anyway he didn’t really thank me for that, thou he thanked me for helping out with the painting as I was doing the (gloss paint work) in the bedroom.

I managed to get some nice sub bass kick and slam when (Mikaela Banes, has Bumblebee hooked on the back of the tow truck) and then slams it into gear, along with her foot slamming down on foot peddle, that was huge difference that was going unheard in the room before.

With the volume turned up to about 3 O’clock position on the front sub and LFE.1 is turned down to -6db I think at present thou a bit more needs to be done to prevent it from popping on high level peaks.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee18/DemolitionMan3417/Jonshomecinema6.jpg

That's my old Kenwood!


Ian :D

I have mine set so that it reads 0dB in my receiver and the gain on my sub is adjusted so that the sub reads the same level as the mains (Avia II) or 75 dB. For movies I leave it at 0 dB in the receiver, but like to crank it to + 4-5 dB for music.

You'd probably be better served to recalibrate your sub gain level to read the same as your mains with the receiver sub level set at -5 for movies, then crank it to -1 to 0 for music if you like. That way, you'll avoid potential clipping problems from your receiver.


Tim

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee18/DemolitionMan3417/Jonshomecinema6.jpg

That's my old Kenwood!


Ian :D

Yeah! Did you like it or dislike it for what it can and can’t do. I still have mine thou I wouldn’t mind a new remote control for it as the four buttons dropped out LOL after a year!

I’m not to keen on the (peak management) or audio limiter I mean it’s a real pigs ear to set-up correctly VS the volume control.

I have found it good between -20db and -10db while having the volume at 0db but not with the internal amplification; otherwise it would be very loud! I run separates to different amplifiers.

I was tinkering around with Armageddon! The (moon-shot-sling) sequence where there is point where I can get the LFE.1 to rumble as the scene sounded very bright over all the other channels.

Just when one of the freedom crew says this is “really heavy man is, this suppose to be like this?” “Don’t worry this is normal.”

Now that got me thinking while the launch was VERY heavy with lots of sub bass, bass and LFE.1 supporting the sequence I knew there was something queer with the LFE.1 during the (moon-shot-sling).

Just as Harry YELLS out arrgggg or was it AAARRRrmageddon! There is huge LEF.1 peak that was bit loud or too HOT over the rest of the sub bass low frequencies.

So I trimmed it with some (bass management) and boosted the level, was it on the amplifier or was it on the audio mixer, wow I can’t remember oh, well I might try it out again at some point. AAARRRrmageddon!:D


I have mine set so that it reads 0dB in my receiver and the gain on my sub is adjusted so that the sub reads the same level as the mains (Avia II) or 75 dB. For movies I leave it at 0 dB in the receiver, but like to crank it to + 4-5 dB for music.

If you play the signal from all channels and into amplifiers that have barograph display you’ll notice the LFE.1 is a few db down when using a 100Hz sine wave, even when the volume is set at the same level.

You’ll see the same if you had DEQ2496 attached to pre-out-puts as well.

You'd probably be better served to recalibrate your sub gain level to read the same as your mains with the receiver sub level set at -5 for movies, then crank it to -1 to 0 for music if you like. That way, you'll avoid potential clipping problems from your receiver.


Tim

But how can one be certain that there not already soft clipping or even clipping there AVR. I use separate amplifiers with clipping LED and I sleep easier knowing that.

for all you people who are running your subs hot AND using bass management, the lows that are being redirected from your center channel and all other channels for that matter are also running "hot"

that must really screw up the sound of the very important center channel (and the surrounds)

I'm hot and my sub is too. :rolleyes: :cool:

+1 for me ;)

0 db hot on spl, then adjust a little bit up as set by ear.

0 db hot on spl, then adjust a little bit up as set by ear.

75dB here same as the speakers. But with a house curve, I am somewhere around +6dB around 18Hz, averaged over 6 listening positions in two rows, of 3.

I am running my subs at 72 db's using test tones and all other speakers at 75 db's.

The test tones in Avia are far better to use than any processor for setting speaker levels --- especially for subs.

My bass is just fine with my processor's test tones.

The test tones in Avia are far better to use than any processor for setting speaker levels --- especially for subs.

why ?

i have always heard that

is it that hard to store some reliable pink noise in a modern day receiver ?

You guys should tell how far from reference your actually listening at when you run your sub's hot. At say "10db" hot, I could see how this would sound good at lower volumes like -35db or so, but if your listening near reference level with it that hot thats another story.

I watch good recordings at reference levels. The hot recordings I watch at -5db's from reference. I like my bass to match all my speakers. I do not turn them up even at lower volumes(if that ever happens).

I run my subs level as well. Never felt the need to change that for movies. If I want more slam and couch-shaking, I just turn up the volume. Sounds awesome for movies and music.

I have all my levels set to =10 including my sub, which is why I have port noise on certain movies, while I max everything out, even the front speakers beg for mercy, and so does anyone in the household besides me. :eek:

about 3 above.

I have my subs about +6, and I leave a big hump intact in the 45-15 region which I VERY much prefer for movies. For music, I EQ the sub flat (SMS-1). Listening to a flat response, or even a slight house curve for action type movies or any LFE heavy movie seems a bit flat to me (no pun intended) and I much prefer to leave the natural room induced hump intact for these type of movies in the 15-45hz range. I listened to the flat setting for a good period of time after I got the SMS-1 and got it EQ'd for action type movies, but it just was not as exciting for me which I know goes against the "rules":p Let your ears and body decide as I find a nice hump in this region to make action movies much more intense. The upper bass range is the same either way (flat or with the hump left in), but having that bump in the lower region gives a nice kick to big LFE scenes;)

For music however I do listen and much prefer the flat setting on my SMS.

This Thread is a sick place ... sort of like a confessional for bass addicts:p. I must admit that when I had single or even dual subs, I used to run them a few db hot for action movies. Now that I have quad subs that is no longer necessary. I ran the crash scene of POTP (bluray,) and played with the LFE level on the Velo SMS-1 just for fun. Even a 3 db LFE boost was downright scary and that is with the master volume -8 from ref. Bass like that is addictive.

I run my two HSU MBM's (one with each main) and two HSU 3.3's along with one Dayton 15" sub with the crossover at 50hz up (behind the couch, nearfield in MO) the same as the mains. I do however engage the "LIFT" mode on Anti Mode 8033 in the 15-25hz region for a little extra boost in the lower end. I'm in bass heaven!

Bill

I run my subs always -2 or -3db before I notice audible noise...

I run my subs always -2 or -3db before I notice audible noise...

I run until I hear audible noise, Ported subs make good air conditioners. :p