I thought it would be interesting to find out which converter box everyone is planning to buy when they get their coupons. Feel free to explain your choice below.

VCR timer #1 option for me.
#2 would be S-out.
Planning on the TR-40 it sounds like it will be the only one with #1, but not #2.

The VCR timers along with Analog passthrough are important to me, although not so much on the timers with my new Hauppauge WinHVR1600 that I'm installing tomorrow :D

Coupons in hand, I'm sitting tight for awhile and see what becomes available before they expire. I may end up with the Digital Stream DTX9900 and the Zenith DTT900.

Well, I couldn't wait and got the Zenith without a coupon. Not a big deal, because I'll need to buy more then 2 boxes to cover all the TVs and VCRs.

The Zenith worked so well, for me, I feel very comfortable getting more of the same box for the other equipment.

Now there is an exception, when I have 2 boxes in the same room, one box must be different or the remote will screw up the VCR box when I want to change the TV. I don't know which box I'll pick for the second box.... Still thinking...

Bob Diaz

I already have a RCA DTA800B and an Insignia NS-DXA1. I think the RCA is a fine box, but the Insignia tends to pick up digital channels better on the whole. I will probably buy another Insignia box before it's over (but the RCA isn't bad).

(1) Zenith or its clone Insignia. Zenith appears to have the best tuner for picking-up weak signals.

(2)

Later I will probably buy the Echostar TR-50 with built-in DVR. Or if that's too expensive, the TR-40 to connect to my old analog SVHS unit.

I have applied for ONE coupon only and it's on the way. Now that TR-40 is getting delayed, I am wondering whether I can apply for the other box too. Although I voted for TR-40 (I need the VCR tune feature), the Zenith and RCA are also quite appealing because Zenith seems to be super sensitive. RCA seems to have the smart antenna feature which is kind of unique. Currently I am in a location which doesn't need smart antenna, but I am thinking that it may be helpful, if I ever move to a area with multi direction OTA feed. Currently I have the hisense tuner connected to my Sammy DVD recorder which records via S-video and 16x9 fine (no black bar) and the quality is near DVD quality. But I am hoping for uber RF sensitivity in these new tuners. If TR-50 is offered at good price without any subscription model, I might buy it too.

I'm not planning to buy a converter box. You didn't include that as an option in your poll. I think that would be an interesting data point.

Maxmedia seems to be best of breed. It has smart antenna and S video and Analog pass through. i would think the program EPG would be good too since they seem to be loading this box with everything you might need. Plus they answer e-mails right away. They will have pictures of remote soon I was told.

I do not know how good this box will be with weak signals. BUT with most major brands IE Zennth and RCA getting bad posts. I do not think a name means better quality in this case

I have applied for ONE coupon only and it's on the way. Now that TR-40 is getting delayed, I am wondering whether I can apply for the other box too.

You can apply for the second coupon--I did the same thing three days ago, and my first coupon was applied for on January 2...sigh, am still waiting for it to arrive...feel like an impatient kid at Christmas. Mailbox was full today...of bills...yuk....

I thought it would be interesting to find out which converter box everyone is planning to buy when they get their coupons. Feel free to explain your choice below.

I'm planning to go with the Zenith, based upon the many positive comments seen on this board and a couple of others. It's only going to feed a 14" set in this room, as that's virtually all I watch any longer. There's a 27" Panasonic set in the den, very high-end in its day--but it sits unused for the most part. I come home from work, sit in here in front of the computer for several hours, and sometimes have the 14" set on as background.

I wish that the converter had the RF pass-through feature, as Dish Network is fed into this room on channel 36, from the TV-2 out of the receiver--outdoor antenna is also fed into this room from the same coax. The plan, at this point, is to either split or A/B the coax signal, sending it both to the converter and the set, so that Dish can still be received. I then plan to hook the converter to the TV using the RCA video/audio jacks.

Applied for my 1st coupon online 1/1/08. Received it 3/3/08. Good through 5/26/08. Plan on purchasing in late April or early May. Seems like the Insignia is getting good reviews for sensitive reception. Am concerned about reports of "artifacts" produced by other units. Analog RF passthrough sounds interesting for connecting other devices that send on channels 3/4; no LP stations in my urban area. Smart antenna capability sounds interesting too.

When the second phase of the coupon program starts up (for us folks who only receive OTA and only have analog sets) I will order my second coupon. Might be more choices by then.

I have applied for ONE coupon only and it's on the way. Why only ask for one coupon when the gov't is handing-out two? (just curious) Zenith seems to be super sensitive. RCA seems to have the smart antenna feature which is kind of unique. Currently I am in a location which doesn't need smart antenna, but I am thinking that it may be helpful, if I ever move to a area with multi direction OTA feed.

Those smart antennas are really not much better than an omnidirectional mounted on your roof. A directional antenna will outperform a "smart" antenna every time, because the directional can be turned in any 360 degree direction, whereas the smart antennas are limited to only 8 or 16 compass points.

Maxmedia seems to be best of breed. It has smart antenna and S video and Analog pass through. i would think the program EPG would be good too Nope. The Electronic Guide is only a now/next function. I do not know how good this box will be with weak signals. BUT with most major brands IE Zennth and RCA getting bad posts...
The Zenith is not getting bad posts. The Zenith is getting great posts with one owner getting stations from 120 miles away, and another saying he briefly received a NC station from 200 miles away.

Why only ask for one coupon when the gov't is handing-out two? (just curious)

That's one coupon at a time. The selection of boxes is likely to be different after the first coupon expires. By waiting for the second phase of the coupon program to start up, I don't have to worry whether they will run out of coupons before I order my next one.

Those smart antennas are really not much better than an omnidirectional mounted on your roof. A directional antenna will outperform a "smart" antenna every time, because the directional can be turned in any 360 degree direction, whereas the smart antennas are limited to only 8 or 16 compass points.

The major appeal of the smart antenna feature is to have the antenna adjust automatically every time you change channels. For those who don't have their own roof, or who don't want to run wires up there, the comparision should be: "Would a smart antenna outperform a pair of rabbit ears?"

Buzzin Blair had a good observation for those who don't have their own roof (i.e. condo unit owners): "Would a smart antenna outperform a pair of rabbit ears?"

I'm not seeing Smart Antennas in retail stores.

Why only ask for one coupon when the gov't is handing-out two? (just curious)


I needed only one box and thought "that" time one box will be enough. But now with all these exciting development on VCR tuner feature, smart antenna feature coming in so late, I applied for one more coupon today.

I already own the RCA "B" model. Am waiting for coupons for the Zenith/Insignia.

That's one coupon at a time. The selection of boxes is likely to be different after the first coupon expires. By waiting for the second phase of the coupon program to start up, I don't have to worry whether they will run out of coupons before I order my next one.

I'm confused. How will self-limiting yourself to only 1 coupon prevent the gov't from running out? I don't understand.

Here's what I did:
- Ordered 2 coupons
- Wait until they reach phase two, and then order 1 more coupon.
- 3 total. The major appeal of the smart antenna feature is to have the antenna adjust automatically every time you change channels. For those who don't have their own roof, or who don't want to run wires up there, the comparision should be: "Would a smart antenna outperform a pair of rabbit ears?" Makes sense.

I'm confused. How will self-limiting yourself to only 1 coupon prevent the gov't from running out? I don't understand.

Here's what I did:
- Ordered 2 coupons
- Wait until they reach phase two, and then order 1 more coupon.
- 3 total. Makes sense.

I don't think this is going to be possible. According to the dtv2009 website, each household is only entitled to two coupons.

There's one additional limitation--the second wave of coupons are meant for folks who have no cable or satellite reception.

I'm confused. How will self-limiting yourself to only 1 coupon prevent the gov't from running out? I don't understand.

Here's what I did:
- Ordered 2 coupons
- Wait until they reach phase two, and then order 1 more coupon.
- 3 total. Makes sense.

And is also against the rules for the coupons. As stated above, each household is limited to 2 coupons (at least until the program gets changed).

To check it out - https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx, Coupon Program :Getting a coupon, Question 8

Also - Phase 2 is limited to households with ONLY OTA, no cable / satellite households

Am I the only one that thinks these boxes will be selling for $19.95 after the coupon program expires?

Am I the only one that thinks these boxes will be selling for $19.95 after the coupon program expires?

Thats gotta be the smartest thing I've heard in a while. Stupid gov't....these converters look cheaper to build than a crappy dvd player.

Thats gotta be the smartest thing I've heard in a while. Stupid gov't....these converters look cheaper to build than a crappy dvd player.

Supply and demand...they would have been $60 without the coupons, and ocne everyone has them...they'll be worth 1/4 of that.

Am I the only one that thinks these boxes will be selling for $19.95 after the coupon program expires?

Unless they make too many of them they won't be that cheap but $29.95 in eighteen months sounds like a real possibility. Even at that price I doubt that more than a half dozen models will survive the end of the coupon program.

Supply and demand...they would have been $60 without the coupons, and ocne everyone has them...they'll be worth 1/4 of that.

I wonder if these boxes would even have existed without the coupon program. The electronics industry would much rather sell us all new TVs. At the very least, I think the CECB specs have ensured these boxes will produce a picture that is tollerable for people who are used to watching SD analog CRTs.

I was under the impression each household was entitled to 2 for everybody + 1 for those who rely on OTA exclusively. I wonder if these boxes would even have existed without the coupon program. The electronics industry would much rather sell us all new TVs. You're right. If the gov't had not stepped-in, everybody would be forced to buy either a new set ($150), or a VCR/DVD recorder equipped with the ATSC/DTV tuner ($200), or both ($350). By offering these coupons, the gov't provides us with a cheaper option ($10).

And once February 2009 hits, I suspect these D-to-A converter boxes will be in high demand, because people will be scrambling to remove the white noise from their televisions.

NO - it is 2 per household, period. The first 2/3 can go to anyone, the last third are reserved for OTA households only. Nothing in there about any household eligible for more then 2 CECB coupons. You may purchase any number of CECBs you want, but only 2 coupons.

That blows chunks.

I have three televisions that are used daily. Five that are used weekly. And they expect me to get by with only 2 coupons? Bogus.

This program should have specifically excluded those with cable or satellite service. They don't need converters. We who have nothing but antennas DO need them, and we should have been the only ones allowed to get these boxes.

That arguement has been gone over before the program was framed in its current configuration. As it is - the last third of the coupons ARE reserved for OTA only households. As for your arguement that Satellite / Cable subs should be excluded - We'll have to agree to disagree. Suffice it to say that as a Dish Subscriber - there have been more than a few occaisions that I needed to use OTA because weather conditions made DBS reception impossible.

All the coupons are intended for is that a household is not totally left out with the conversion. As I stated - you can BUY as many CECBs as you want - but you can only use 2 coupons. So if you need 5 CECBs - go buy them - nobody is stopping you. But you can use only 2 coupons.

That blows chunks.

I have three televisions that are used daily. Five that are used weekly. And they expect me to get by with only 2 coupons? Bogus.

This program should have specifically excluded those with cable or satellite service. They don't need converters. We who have nothing but antennas DO need them, and we should have been the only ones allowed to get these boxes.

I disagree. There are plenty of households that have pay service and have TVs that are not connected to it. They may have TVs that are costly to run cable to, or they don't want to pay for an extra satellite box. There are also satellite households that get their local stations over the air. It's hardly fair to exclude them from the program when they are local broadcast viewers and will be impacted by the transition.

Given the sheer number of boxes that are being approved as coupon eligible, competition and production process improvements will likely drive the cost of these boxes down fairly quickly. I suspect by the time the February 2009 analog shutoff deadline comes around next year, you'll be able to pick up converter boxes for $20 or $30 without a coupon.

There are those of us on Cable or Satellite that wish to get off. OTA reception frees us from those ties.

I am sure rrrrrroger was just being sarcastic since there aren't many people that think it is the government's responsibility to buy him 6 converter boxes.

I voted for the Echostar TR-40 because of the VCR timer. If it doesn't come out in time to use my coupons, I'll go with the Zenith/Insignia.

Just visited Best Buy and their Insignia version of the Zenith comes in a really ugly box. For that reason alone I'll have to choose the Zenith. The pretty box wins out every time.

I voted for the Echostar TR-40 because of the VCR timer. If it doesn't come out in time to use my coupons, I'll go with the Zenith/Insignia.If the TR-40 has all the features I'm hoping it does (like converting the digital TVGOS info to analog for my recorders), I won't mind paying the full 40 bucks for it one bit.

Even if it doesn't, if it's the only one with a recording timer (manual, that is), it's still worth it. If it can't be manually set and relies on the PSIP time, then forget it. I already have a Samsung which has that, and it ain't worth a damn.

I still want the pass-through, though.

That blows chunks.

I have three televisions that are used daily. Five that are used weekly. And they expect me to get by with only 2 coupons? Bogus.

This program should have specifically excluded those with cable or satellite service. They don't need converters. We who have nothing but antennas DO need them, and we should have been the only ones allowed to get these boxes.

Thats the way I am we have 4 TVs at our house. Two have DirecTV but we still get our local News, Weather by OTA as well as all of the main Networks ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CW, PBS with an antenna so I ordered our two coupons but I would need two more. The way I got around that is I also had to order both my grandma's coupons both have OTA only so thats four more coupons with one TV a piece I will have the other two I need. We will have to go get there boxes anyway so that was my solution.

As I stated - you can BUY as many CECBs as you want - but you can only use 2 coupons. So if you need 5 CECBs - go buy them - nobody is stopping you. But you can use only 2 coupons. The government created the problem of my suddenly non-working televisions.
The government is at fault.
The government should be the party who pays for the upgrade, not me.

Same as when you are in a car accident, the person at fault pays for the repairs, not the victim. The government is at fault, and should be the one who pays for the upgrade to fix the damage they caused. Like I said, I have 3 that I use daily. To have one of those sets go dark is unacceptable.


And yes coupons should exclude cable/satellite subscribers. If your dish doesn't work right when it's raining, that's your OWN fault for choosing a sucky service. Either you should pay, or the dish company should pay to fix the problem, not the government. The government is not at fault, and not liable to repair your situation.

The government created the problem of my suddenly non-working televisions.
The government is at fault.
The government should be the party who pays for the upgrade, not me.



Yeah.... good luck with that.

The government created the problem of my suddenly non-working televisions.
The government is at fault.
The government should be the party who pays for the upgrade, not me.

Same as when you are in a car accident, the person at fault pays for the repairs, not the victim. The government is at fault, and should be the one who pays for the upgrade to fix the damage they caused. Like I said, I have 3 that I use daily. To have one of those sets go dark is unacceptable.


And yes coupons should exclude cable/satellite subscribers. If your dish doesn't work right when it's raining, that's your OWN fault for choosing a sucky service. Either you should pay, or the dish company should pay to fix the problem, not the government. The government is not at fault, and not liable to repair your situation.


I assume you are a Democrat? ;)

-Robert

I assume you are a Democrat? ;)

-Robert

I'M a Democrat and I don't think it's the government's responsibility to provide 6 subsidized tuners to one person.

But as a Democrat, what I like best about the CECB program is it might help keep millions of TVs out of the landfill.

Now, back to the topic... I'm waiting for one of the S-Video boxes before I use my second coupon.

And yes coupons should exclude cable/satellite subscribers. If your dish doesn't work right when it's raining, that's your OWN fault for choosing a sucky service. Either you should pay, or the dish company should pay to fix the problem, not the government. The government is not at fault, and not liable to repair your situation.

I never said that the government has to make me right. I accepted when I first got DBS that at that time - Locals were not available from DBS. Therefore I kept lifeline cable. Eventually - Dish started offering locals, and I finally got OTA figured out for my location (a long painfully slow expensive process, I might add - this topic wasn't covered very much ANYWHERE). Once I saw where Digital was going (I live in the Raleigh Durham market - home of WRAL - the nation's Leader and first HDTV broadaster, BTW) , I started making my plans and executing them. These 2 converter boxes are part of my plan - I've replaced TVs when they went out, or in anticipation of this.

So don't get on my case about taking advantage of something available to me. I'm not getting on your case about wanting 5 CECB coupons when you can obviously afford more (I mean - do you REALLY need 5 TVs ? ) - by your same standard - maybe the program should have had an income requirement - but it doesn't - so get over it already. Go buy your extra CECBs and enjoy and quit whining about the "problems" as you see them.

The government created the problem of my suddenly non-working televisions.
The government is at fault.
The government should be the party who pays for the upgrade, not me.

Same as when you are in a car accident, the person at fault pays for the repairs, not the victim. The government is at fault, and should be the one who pays for the upgrade to fix the damage they caused. Like I said, I have 3 that I use daily. To have one of those sets go dark is unacceptable.


And yes coupons should exclude cable/satellite subscribers. If your dish doesn't work right when it's raining, that's your OWN fault for choosing a sucky service. Either you should pay, or the dish company should pay to fix the problem, not the government. The government is not at fault, and not liable to repair your situation.

rrrrrroger,

Your chances of changing the government's rules here are next to zero. However, if you feel so strongly that the government should provide you with a third box, there is a way...

Find a friend (or relative) who is willing to apply for a coupon, but doesn't need it, because they are on satellite or cable. When the friend's coupon comes, go with the friend to the store, and he/she buys the box you want. Once you get home, hand the friend the cash for the cost of the box, and your friend hands you the box.

Now, having said that, what you would be doing is against the law, but if you want to "beat the system", that's how to do it. I've already had several friends, who are aware that I need 5 boxes to cover all the TVs and VCRs in my home, offer to do that. I will NOT do that, but I'm sure others might.

Sorry, but life is very unfair; all we can do is make the best of it and move on...

Bob Diaz

Hey, they're giving most people at least a $300.00 rebate check for nothing - what more do you want? Just use the money from that.

What, does he want everything for free? Sounds like a lot of illegal aliens I know. A lot of good welfare reform did in the 90's.

Hey, they're giving most people at least a $300.00 rebate check for nothing - what more do you want? Just use the money from that.

What, does he want everything for free? Sounds like a lot of illegal aliens I know.

and how much did they take from you. My sister is really P.U. becuase she is single and makes over $80g and is left out. When will the goverment learn that making $100gs a year isn't a lot.

When will the goverment learn that making $100gs a year isn't a lot.[/QUOTE]

Depends on where you live and the cost of living. It's a he!! of a lot around these parts. Definitely considered upper class, that's for sure.

The government created the problem of my suddenly non-working televisions.
The government is at fault.
The government should be the party who pays for the upgrade, not me.
If you don't like the way it was implemented, whining about it to this forum isn't going to help you. I doubt it'll help, but have you written a letter to your elected representatives in congress?


Same as when you are in a car accident, the person at fault pays for the repairs, not the victim. The government is at fault, and should be the one who pays for the upgrade to fix the damage they caused.
I take it you've never driven in a no-fault accident state.

Like I said, I have 3 that I use daily. To have one of those sets go dark is unacceptable.
If it's unacceptable to you, wait until just before the transition and pick up a converter box without the coupon. Most likely it won't cost much more than they are now with the coupon.


And yes coupons should exclude cable/satellite subscribers. If your dish doesn't work right when it's raining, that's your OWN fault for choosing a sucky service. Either you should pay, or the dish company should pay to fix the problem, not the government. The government is not at fault, and not liable to repair your situation.

You do realize there are areas in the United States that don't have cable service right? In those areas, the only subscription service available is satellite dish. Given the radio spectrum that satellite TV service operates on, it would be down right impossible for the service provider to "fix" the problem. Heavy rain and snow tend to block and scatter signals at that frequency. Also, it's likely that there are still folks out there that can't get their locals over the dish.

Besides, I highly doubt that if they had excluded pay TV households from the program that they would have increased the coupon limit per household. They probably would have simply reduced the overall coupon program allocation, so you would still be in the same situation, whining about the government not fully covering your upgrade.

rrrrrroger,

Find a friend (or relative) who is willing to apply for a coupon, but doesn't need it, because they are on satellite or cable. When the friend's coupon comes, go with the friend to the store, and he/she buys the box you want. Once you get home, hand the friend the cash for the cost of the box, and your friend hands you the box.

Now, having said that, what you would be doing is against the law, but if you want to "beat the system", that's how to do it. I've already had several friends, who are aware that I need 5 boxes to cover all the TVs and VCRs in my home, offer to do that. I will NOT do that, but I'm sure others might.

Bob Diaz

It's clear in the government FAQ that you can't sell or transfer the coupon to someone, but I don't know of any restriction on selling the converter itself after you buy it. Do you have a reference indicating that you can't sell a converter once you own it?

FAQs at
https://www.ntiadtv.gov/faq.cfm

smpowell - that's always been MY understanding - can't trade the coupons, but the boxes themselves are like any other electronics box.

I have Dish Network, with locals, but am waiting anxiously to get my coupon.

For starters, I'm paying Dish around $6.00 per month for local reception--and that's money that can go towards the overinflated gasoline prices in this country, once that converter is hooked up.

Secondly, Dish doesn't offer ***all*** of the locals in this area, and the overcompressed image on the locals is marginally acceptable at best...and, of course, none of the extra digital channels that a local may offer are carried either.

The government is taking analog away from us all, I feel no guilt whatsoever accepting these coupons...and if the price of subscription television continues to rise at the extreme rate that it has been rising in recent years, the local channels are all I'm going to have eventually, DVD not withstanding.

I hear 'ya. I just dropped down to their Top 100 after the recent increase.

Had the Top 200 2 years ago, then dropped down to Latino Dos when they raised that, which actually was a lot better than the Top 100 as far as English offerings (IFC, National Geographic, Sirius music channels and free Playboy TV!). After the Top 100, I've no further down I can go without never hearing the end of it (thanks to Lifetime).

I would've liked to have kept my RSN if they still offered it with the Top 100+ pack for $5.00 extra - but, along with the Top 100 price they also raised the RSN price to $10.00!!

With everything else going up so much, I have to cut back - I can't just "absorb" these raises like so many others here seem to. It gets me when people here imply that "It's only a few dollars - so what? Just pay it!".

I still have OTA and a no-fee HD DVR for my HD, though. (And another SD one for the Dish channels.)

It's clear in the government FAQ that you can't sell or transfer the coupon to someone, but I don't know of any restriction on selling the converter itself after you buy it. Do you have a reference indicating that you can't sell a converter once you own it?

FAQs at
https://www.ntiadtv.gov/faq.cfm

To be honest, I just assumed that was the case, but you may have hit on a loophole for those who want a third box at a coupon price.

Bob Diaz

I hear 'ya. I just dropped down to their Top 100 after the recent increase.

With everything else going up so much, I have to cut back - I can't just "absorb" these raises like so many others here seem to. It gets me when people here imply that "It's only a few dollars - so what? Just pay it!".



It's comforting to know that there are others who feel the same way. I dropped DirecTV last year, after 9 years with them, and went with Dish because of pricing that was simply getting out of control. I'll hang on with Dish until it can no longer be justified. Top 100 is what I have as well.

The digital converter will indeed help, I'm looking forward to saving the money each month that's being paid for locals. Now am simply hoping that I pick the right converter, once the coupon arrives...was leaning heavily towards the Zenith box, but audio issues reported by multiple posters have me wondering now.

After the Top 100, I've no further down I can go without never hearing the end of it (thanks to Lifetime). There's the "Family Plan" for $20. ($25 with local channels)
With everything else going up so much, I have to cut back - I can't just "absorb" these raises like so many others here seem to. It gets me when people here imply that "It's only a few dollars - so what? Just pay it!". I remind people how much those few extra dollars cost in lifespan. Say $10 more per month; $120 a year:

- About 15 more hours wasted in hell... er, work.
- I'd rather spend those 2 days at home enjoying the company of my wife and kids. I never said that the government has to make me right. I accepted when I first got DBS that at that time - Locals were not available from DBS. Therefore I kept lifeline cable. Eventually - Dish started offering locals, and I finally got OTA figured out for my location Well then you should agree with me - the $40 coupons should not be provided to cable or satellite owners. If the TV goes out, then it should be either the cable or dish company that provides the solution, not the government, because it was the company at fault.

The coupons should only be for those who have NO other solution except over-the-air.

The government "broke" their televisions and made them useless; thus it should be the government that fixes the problem (provides those coupons). I look around, and I see all these poor or elderly people who have no clue about the DTV transition. All the boxes will have been taken by cable/dish subscribers (i.e. you), leaving the poor/elderly with nothing.

Also:

I don't want six coupons.
I want three.

They don't have Lifetime with the Family plan. Other than that, I myself could live with it, because I don't watch that much stuff on the satellite/cable channels anyway. I thought about getting the standalone HD Pack, but not at least until they get more channels.

If it wasn't for the infamous low-powered, lo-VHF WBBM-DT here (CBS), I could comfortably drop the locals and knock that cost off too, but until they move to hi-VHF like they're supposed to, I need to keep them around. I have no use for the Dish locals otherwise - I get them all OTA and they look 1000x better.

I'm really pissed off now after reading this http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/22/echostars-tr-40-dtv-converter-box-not-available-til-june-jul/

Even though I have no use for one of these boxes personally...my father has a lake cabin with a older crt hooked up to analog cable that frequently goes down...and the back up rabbit ears are used more than you would think. I told him the Echostar TR-40 is the way to go because of analog passthrough...but now they may not be available until the coupons expire. If the government can't even get this right...can we trust them with universal healthcare?:eek::rolleyes:

I'm really pissed off now after reading this http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/22/echostars-tr-40-dtv-converter-box-not-available-til-june-jul/

Even though I have no use for one of these boxes personally...my father has a lake cabin with a older crt hooked up to analog cable that frequently goes down...and the back up rabbit ears are used more than you would think. I told him the Echostar TR-40 is the way to go because of analog passthrough...but now they may not be available until the coupons expire.

If the government can't even get this right...can we trust them with universal healthcare?:eek::rolleyes:

Thanks for playing, "Really Bad Analogies"

The government provided the coupons, not the TR-40....

Thanks for playing, "Really Bad Analogies"

The government provided the coupons, not the TR-40....The TR-40 is on the governments "approved list" which means this box was made specifically for the coupon program....the same program which has a tight 90 day window before they are useless...and only a paltry handful of boxes available (none below $50) when the first ones were sent out. believe it or not...there are some people in this country (and no, my father isn't one of them) that will have to wait until the $39.99 boxes are available before they can afford to get one. What if their coupons expire before that is possible?

I don't understand why so many people are complaining about this. I've said this before, and I'll say it again; they made it very clear up front that the coupons will expire within 90 days after they are mailed. If you intended to wait for something better to become available, you shouldn't have requested your coupons so early.

Now if the government had automatically mailed them to everyone on Jan 1st, then I would be pissed off too. But that's not the case...

I don't understand why so many people are complaining about this. I've said this before, and I'll say it again; they made it very clear up front that the coupons will expire within 90 days after they are mailed. If you intended to wait for something better to become available, you shouldn't have requested your coupons so early.

Now if the government had automatically mailed them to everyone on Jan 1st, then I would be pissed off too. But that's not the case...

If I could know on January 2, what I know now, I could make a ton of money off the stock market and the lottery!!! :D

On January 2, I had no idea that most of the boxes would be delayed.

However, I'm happy with the Zenith Box, so I'll end up getting 2 more Zeniths.


Bob Diaz

If I could know on January 2, what I know now, I could make a ton of money off the stock market and the lottery!!! :D

On January 2, I had no idea that most of the boxes would be delayed.

However, I'm happy with the Zenith Box, so I'll end up getting 2 more Zeniths.


Bob Diaz

Yeah, I'm not sure where the complaints are coming from (other than rrrrroger, who would complain if someone walked up to him and handed him a $20). I signed up for my coupons on Jan 1 figuring that there would be limited selection available on the market when I received my coupons. I also knew they wouldn't mail any coupons until at least some products started hitting the shelves. With that info, I was more than willing to be a guinea pig and be one of the early adopters.

Once the products had started hitting the shelves, I noticed that one of the Best Buy's near here had them in stock with one prominently on display and hooked up to an antenna. It was pretty nice to get to check one out before purchasing it. It was in a signal area that was just a little bit worse than mine, so I was luckily able to get a good idea of the performance of the box too.

About a week ago, I got my coupons and went to Best Buy and picked up two of the Insignias. The purchase was pretty smooth. They hadn't seen the coupons before, but readily figured it out. I've been happy with my purchase. The Insignia is certainly not without some minor quirks, but no major problems or annoyances. It performs well enough hooked up to rabbit ears, but hooking it up to my DB2 definitely helps with performance. Its interface is also intuitive.

At the end of the day, I have no regrets signing up for my coupons early and being an early Insignia (Zenith) adopter. I would definitely recommend the box to anyone who needs to burn their coupons right now.

Well then you should agree with me - the $40 coupons should not be provided to cable or satellite owners. If the TV goes out, then it should be either the cable or dish company that provides the solution, not the government, because it was the company at fault.

The coupons should only be for those who have NO other solution except over-the-air.

The government "broke" their televisions and made them useless; thus it should be the government that fixes the problem (provides those coupons). I look around, and I see all these poor or elderly people who have no clue about the DTV transition. All the boxes will have been taken by cable/dish subscribers (i.e. you), leaving the poor/elderly with nothing.

Also:

I don't want six coupons.
I want three.
It's good to know that you've found that if people don't agree with you the first time, bold print will certainly change their minds.

He wouldn't agree with you because he's a satellite user. Dish goes out because of bad weather. There's no getting around it. Even if God did have a toll free number to call about it (Dish or Directv aren't responsible for the weather), the answer would be the same, wait a couple of hours for the satellite to come back or plug in your rabbit ears.

I don't know if you have taken the time to read enough about the coupon program. The second phase of the program with 500 million dollars worth of coupons will only be available to OTA exclusive households. This is after the 990 million of initial coupons are handed out, of which large numbers are being requested by OTA exclusive households (myself included). With the exception of a very few unscrupulous scam artists who are trying to sell their coupons, the large majority of those requesting coupons have a vested interest in continuing to receive broadcast television on their analog TV set using an antenna. That set may be the primary tv that is only connected to an antenna. It may be a set hooked up to satellite tv without local service. It could also be an extra set in a bedroom where the cable doesn't have a drop. Those requesting the coupons have an analog television set that will lose broadcast television without a converter box.

Under the program, all of those requesting them may receive up to 2 coupons to help with the digital broadcast television transition. That's the way congress and the NTIA set up the program. If you don't like it, then write your elected officials. Stop whining to this forum. Most folks who are reading these posts are just simply looking for information to help them make a decision regarding a box or for help getting it to work. No one wants to filter through your hostile ranting posts whining about how the government is screwing you out of a third coupon.

As for your problem of needing a third converter box there were several posts with suggestions: You can have a friend request a coupon and purchase a box for you. You can wait until closer to the transition date and pick up a box for a lot cheaper, possibly for about what you'd pay now with a coupon. You can use your tax rebate this summer to pay for one. All of these will get you the third converter box. Whining on avsforum about your problems with the coupon program will not.

I sincerely doubt that there will be many elderly folks without TV because someone with cable/satellite requested their coupons first. There's nearly $1.5 billion dollars going towards this program of which approximately 1/3 is reserved exclusively for over the air households. By the time that gets exhausted, the converter boxes will have come down enough in price to not matter, or a lot of older folks will have complained to congress enough to have more money allocated towards it. I suspect that the main problem the poor/elderly may have won't be in obtaining a converter box, but that they may need to upgrade their antenna set up to receive the marginal channels they previously were able to view.

I'm sorry to hear that Dish goes out in bad weather, but I still don't see why the government should pay to fix the problem. It's not the government's fault. It's the Dish company's fault.

Question: Why is phase 2 limited to only over-the-air households? They don't have Lifetime with the Family plan. Other than that, I myself could live with it, because I don't watch that much stuff on the satellite/cable channels anyway. Well if your wife insists upon $30 a month to get that stupid Life channel, maybe you should make HER work the extra overtime needed to pay the bill. ;-)

Actually I find a lot of cable programming is downloadable off the net. So I got rid of it long, long ago and just use my internet access to watch my favorite shows. I bet most of those old Lifetime movies/shows are also on the net, free to watch. If the government can't even get this right...can we trust them with universal healthcare?Thanks for playing, "Really Bad Analogies". The government provided the coupons, not the TR-40....
Yes but it was the government who applied that stupid 90-day expiration date. Why? Even my Target gift card gives me 2 years to use it; if the government had applied a similar, reasonable date (say March 1, 2009), then it wouldn't matter that the Echostar TR-40 or other boxes arrived late.


BTW the real flaw with gov't healthcare is the monopolistic aspect. Whether you visit hospital 1, hospital 2, or hospital 3, you are getting the same Uncle Sam product. If that product is bad with poor service, there's no alternative choice for something better. Monopoly.

Since the spectrum auction took in more money than expected any complaints about the coupon program should be directed to your member of Congress. Tell him or her that you think there should be more coupons for those that don't have cable or satellite including a third coupon for those households. Don't try to get sympathy here by admitting you download TV programs that were probably illegally uploaded to the internet without permission. There's little the posters here can do to answer your complaints but you might be surprised at the results if you direct your complaint with a much nicer and respectful tone to the right place.

I'm sorry to hear that Dish goes out in bad weather, but I still don't see why the government should pay to fix the problem. It's not the government's fault. It's the Dish company's fault.
Look dude, I'm not advocating that the government should spend any engineering time on figuring out how to make satellite TV perform better in bad weather. What I am doing is explaining some of the reasoning that went into the coupon program allowing households with pay TV service. Broadcasters have a vested interest in the government subsidizing all households that receive signals over the air during the transition. The implementation of the coupon program reflects that fact.

Again, if you don't like the way it was implemented, write your member of congress.

Question: Why is phase 2 limited to only over-the-air households?
All the boxes will have been taken by cable/dish subscribers (i.e. you), leaving the poor/elderly with nothing.
You answered your own question.

Well if your wife insists upon $30 a month to get that stupid Life channel, maybe you should make HER work the extra overtime needed to pay the bill. ;-)Actually, there's one other channel that only Dish carries that's not in the Family Tier that I like to watch pretty much every night, too.

Also, it's only $13.00 more between the Family Tier w/locals and the Top 100 w/locals. - not $30.00. If it were $30.00 just to have those two channels, then I'd say no way.

This is where we need a la carte, for sure. If I could handpick just 5 or 10 channels, that'd be perfect.

Ahhh. Well if you get benefit from the $30 a month plan, cheers for you. My favorite channel is SciFi, but I can't justify the extra expense to myself. (Especially since all the SciFi shows like Stargate, Galactica are available for DVD rental or purchase, and for far far lower cost the cable.)

Also:

To the person who accused me of stealing off the net - you missed the mark. There's nothing illegal about watching Mr. Monk on usanetwork.com or Lost on abc.com or 24 on fox.com.Look dude, I'm not advocating that the government should spend any engineering time on figuring out how to make satellite TV perform better in bad weather. What I am doing is explaining some of the reasoning that went into the coupon program allowing households with pay TV service. Broadcasters have a vested interest in the government subsidizing all households that receive signals over the air during the transition. Then the *broadcasters* like NBC, FOX, et cetera should be the ones paying the bill. They're certainly rich enough (several billion in their bank accounts). As it is the government is already teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, and it should be limiting its spending. If the "broadcasters" desire to see a Converter box in every home, even those that already have cable, then they should be the ones paying the bill.

Then the *broadcasters* like NBC, FOX, et cetera should be the ones paying the bill. They're certainly rich enough (several billion in their bank accounts). As it is the government is already teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, and it should be limiting its spending. If the "broadcasters" desire to see a Converter box in every home, even those that already have cable, then they should be the ones paying the bill.

Perhaps, but they got dragged kicking and screaming into the transition by the FCC. It wasn't without good reason though. Analog TV was inefficient at using the prime UHF spectrum. The digital TV transition will free up a chunk of prime radio spectrum that the FCC is auctioning off. The income from that auction is paying the bill for the coupon program, so it's not like our tax dollars are being used for it. At the end of the day, the money for the program is coming from wireless companies like Verizon, Sprint, AT&T and so on.

Good point about landfills. My county has zero recycle programs for electronics. Without the coupons, my garage TV would be useless. My other 2 tvs are fed by the DISH 622.

Just found this interesting tidbit out yesterday. My friends wife works for a retailer and she mentioned that all of the retailers are pulling the major shaft on these converter box makers.

Essentially, besides them buying these boxes for almost nothing above the manufacturers costs, the retailers all have gotten together and have in contract that the manufacturers have to take back any and all unsold, returned, or exchanged boxes at the end of the program. Which could bankrupt many companies.

So essentially, what you are seeing in the retailers is about all you will see - the big named boxes, all of the other boxes, they may be certified, but many may never see the shelves of any retailers because it won't make any financial sense for them.

This whole NTIA program is starting to implode on itself.

BTW the real flaw with gov't healthcare is the monopolistic aspect. Whether you visit hospital 1, hospital 2, or hospital 3, you are getting the same Uncle Sam product. If that product is bad with poor service, there's no alternative choice for something better. Monopoly.

Sorry to go waaaaay off topic - but the above quote needs a reply...

You're also leaving out the even more ominous and scary part - which is the Mass. state model of "affordable healthcare" which is, you are required to obtain healthcare, if you don't - get this - they FINE YOU!!!

So you're Joe Average - barely making by, you can't pick up that "affordable" healthcare they promised you. Well guess what - now you get a fine issued against you (total fact - look it up - its what Mass. is doing right now) and now, not only can't you afford that "affordable" healthcare, you have a fine you'll need to deal with before the penalties and interest start to compound up.

So you see, the government already has its latest, greatest money making scam since "Social Security" (what a joke!) --- they'll just fine the beejeevies out of everyone not signed up into their healthcare system and rake in billions while not having to provide healthcare to those they are fining, since they aren't in the system.

"A Government who controls your healthcare - is a government which can deny you it."

... the retailers all have gotten together and have in contract that the manufacturers have to take back any and all unsold, returned, or exchanged boxes at the end of the program. Which could bankrupt many companies.That's pretty much standard practice in retail. Someone returns a pair of jeans or shoes... the original manufacturer takes them back & refunds the wholesale price to the store. That's how they keep a good relationship with the stores.Perhaps, but they got dragged kicking and screaming into the transition by the FCC. It wasn't without good reason though. Analog TV was inefficient at using the prime UHF spectrum. I'm still not convinced that's a valid argument to make me lose ~21 analog stations downto just 3 or 4 digital stations. So far it's a lousy deal IMHO.

So.

What's the great new benefit we will receive from losing channels 52 to 63? More cell phones? Oh joy. ;-)

You're also leaving out the even more ominous and scary part - which is the Mass. state model of "affordable healthcare" which is, you are required to obtain healthcare, if you don't - get this - they FINE YOU!!!

.....So you see, the government already has its latest, greatest money making scam since "Social Security" (what a joke!) --- they'll just fine the beejeevies out of everyone not signed up into their healthcare system .....Gotta make sure never to move to Massachusetts. I'm one of those persons without healthcare. When I get sick, I pay cash, because I don't believe in taking extraordinary measures (like a new heart or angioplasty).

I believe every person is predestined to die, and there's no point trying to avoid the inevitable conclusion to life.

130 poll responses - 34 responses for two "proposed" CECBs (MaxMedia and Echostar) which available for purchase yet.

130 poll responses - 34 responses for two "proposed" CECBs (MaxMedia and Echostar) which available for purchase yet.

and don't look like they will be until after the first coupons have expired

.... all of the retailers are pulling the major shaft on these converter box makers.

Essentially, besides them buying these boxes for almost nothing above the manufacturers costs, the retailers all have gotten together and have in contract that the manufacturers have to take back any and all unsold, returned, or exchanged boxes at the end of the program. Which could bankrupt many companies.

So essentially, what you are seeing in the retailers is about all you will see - the big named boxes, all of the other boxes, they may be certified, but many may never see the shelves of any retailers because it won't make any financial sense for them.

This whole NTIA program is starting to implode on itself.

While this story conceivably could be accurate - it is convincing on the surface - it's difficult to imagine that "..the retailers all have gotten together..." in collusion with each other. It's difficult to imagine Wal*Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City and Radio Shack - sworn enemies of each other in the marketplace - engaging in a pattern of collusion which risks bringing on the wrath of power-hungry Department of Justice attorneys. Corporations do tend to be paranoid about entering into contracts which might be regarded by Uncle Sam's DOJ as "Sherman Anti-Trust Act" or "RICO" violations.

At&t is the only monopoly I know of ever being broken up. I am hoping for reviews of other boxes, microgem. Unfortunately it is like only having a choice of 4 boxes right now, and durability is 2nd priority for me.

I thought it would be interesting to find out which converter box everyone is planning to buy when they get their coupons. Feel free to explain your choice below. How times have changed. We've all had some hands-on early adopter experience, with the exception of MaxMedia "buyers" who still haven't received their CECBs.

I purchased the microgem open box. It has the extended epg, hopefully it will last a long time. That is why I also plan to buy the echostar, i own the 7100 dishplayer and it has worked great for 9 years.

Save your money people. As of this date, the available technology is hastily designed crippled junk that puts the publicly-funded tenement housing projects of the 1970's in a relatively good light.

There is no option for 'none of the above' on the list yet, but my recommendation is to wait until the air goes dead before buying anything at all. By then the kinks should be worked out somewhat. But you might have to forego the coupons because there is a limit on the total coupon count that will be minted, but in order to use them next year you will have to wait until the last minute to order them. Maybe you can order two in each of your children's names in staggered orders every 3 months to guarantee that you have a usable set of coupons come March of 2009.

Your other option is to use the fully-functional Samsung receiver, composite or s-video output into your TV with a separate, small composite monitor or black-and-white TV sitting next to your chair that is running off the green component output from the Samsung so that you can see the channel number and menu (so I am told, anyway), and forget this whole crazy subsidy program completely. Or you could find an older HD receiver for less, used.

If you really must buy something now, buy it with a return policy and save your coupon. You can always return your box, then re-purchase the exact same open-box, fully-tested and burned-in item from the store with the coupon if it suits your needs.

Here is what I have experienced with the converter boxes:

First I bought the Channel Master from Fry's as an experiment but my coupons had not yet arrived. Even though the picture has excellent detail on still frames, it pixellates and blocks and jaggies all over the place on dynamic images, especially when the scene detail changes radically, and has absolutely intolerable motion blur, making it unwatchable. I did not even try the s-video output on the assumption that the digital artifacts were far more of an issue than the multiplexing. Weaker stations freeze up and drop out frequently. The program guide is only 2 programs long. The menus are awkward, the gawky remote has several non-mapped buttons, and the captions are illegibly small on my 27" television. Since I did not use a coupon, fortunately I could return this piece of trash with only my time and mileage out of pocket. The only good thing to say about this box is that it actually receives all the channels properly (even if they look like crap), you can re-scan to add new channels after antenna repositioning or manually add channels, and the sound is OK.

Next I bought the Insignia/Zenith at Best Buy. It has a better picture, but there is no s-video output and there are still very visible decoding artifacts from inferior algorithm/horsepower and it has firmware bugs that make it hang at least daily and needs to be power-cycled. The program guide is only 2 programs long. The AVS forum has notes ad nauseum that this box has an audio decode problem that makes the left channel sound harsh, but my damaged hearing and my low-amplitude apartment listening environment do not detect this problem (but I never really payed attention to it). After a week of use it suddenly developed a reception sensitivity problem and I assume that an integrated circuit inside failed. Perhaps the hanging issue is related to this failure, maybe the box was defective from the start. This box is going back for an exchange once I retrieve it from a friend who wanted to test it but, having used a coupon on it, I have lost the $40 that the gov gave me for it if a better box comes along later. The only good thing to say about this box is that it actually receives all the channels properly, even if they are noticeably inferior to a DVD, there is an audible beep available with the simple signal meter so that you can reposition your antenna on a channel without having to be in line-of-site to your TV, you can tune and add channels manually, and you can re-scan to add new channels after antenna repositioning.

Finally, I bought the Digital Stream 9900 at Radio Shack. There is no s-video output and the composite output has amplifier noise running all over it, even the no-signal black screen has a low-intensity snowstorm plastered all over it. The picture is blurry because the noise seems to actually get worse with a signal and it also looks as if they are discarding resolution detail deliberately or perhaps accidentally. The box has firmware bugs galore, causing one PBS sub-channel to not decode at all even though the identical program decodes fine from a different PBS station. The channel add scan function wipes out the existing channel map so it behaves identically to a complete rescan and there is no way to manually tune or add channels. The program guide is 12 hour single channel but it behaves erratically, sometimes corrupted until momentarily tuned away and back again. The signal meter is time-averaged so it is difficult to see signal intensity changes. The sound is dull and lifeless from the RF output and there is a menu option to boost the sound amplitude (select the preferred audio output to 'channel 3/4' instead of 'line out') probably to compensate for this muddy sound problem, although even the line out sounds notably attenuated unless set to 'channel 3/4'. The only good thing to say about this box is that it has less of a tendency to drop out completely from signal fade (probably has something to do with the blurry picture, maybe they are throwing away significant picture detail in an attempt to make reception more reliable), and the sound is OK at least out of the line out jacks. The 12-hour program guide is a nice feature too.

Overall in retrospect I would have ignored the coupon program entirely and just waited a year, or sprung for the Samsung and gotten an HDMI or DVI or component LCD widescreen monitor, if I had understood the issues in advance. Unfortunately, with the instability of the HDCP copy protection compatibility in the HD monitors (plus their expense), it might make more sense just to buy a new TV instead.

I even investigated the copy protection stripping alternatives to use with an older HD-ready TV and found them very expensive, so there is no practical way around it - a new television is the most economical solution at this time, unless one wants to plunge into converter box hell and just lump the bugs and performance problems.

The rest of the boxes that are listed here were either not available to me or I determined from other reviews that they are even worse than the three I tested.

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade.

Funny, I don't have any of the problems you mention at all with your Insignia on my CC Zenith box. It actually receives very well and solidly, and looks a lot better than I would've expected on my 768p Pio plasma (not that I'm planning on keeping it there). The best HD stuff does look at least as good as a better SD DVD, for sure.

The only real beef I have with it is the guide, like you say, only because I'm so used to better. The remote is lame, but that can be remedied easily enough.

n4yqt is right - it does sound like you might have some kind of other issue causing many of the problems. Maybe some kind of interference, especially if you're seeing lines or speckles in the picture. Check all the cables, too.

Also, I believe you very well can add channels manually to the Digital Stream, and without losing the ones you have, too. You just punch in the actual (not virtual) digital channel number, and it should just program in there as long as it's picking up a signal (if it's not it won't work). I'm also pretty sure you can just do an "ez-add" scanover without losing the existing channels. I've actually never seen a Digital Stream/Accurian model where you couldn't do those things.

Remember - the CECB boxes are only meant to keep analog sets receiving the local ATSC channels after the cutoff - nothing more. If you want a full-fledged A/V component buy the much more expensive Samsung or whatever. (Tivax and Coby, among others, make cheaper HD boxes.) You really can't be too picky about something that's costing you $0.00-$25.00, that the govt's. subsidizing. Where they're concerned, you should expect a certain amount of shoddiness involved. Like I said, having been around A/V stuff enough all these years, I'm actually surprised my Zenith is as good as it is, and I think it's well worth the $24.19 I'll be paying for it if I decide to keep it (I really do want those TR-40's, though!).

Finally, I bought the Digital Stream 9900 at Radio Shack. There is no s-video output and the composite output has amplifier noise running all over it, even the no-signal black screen has a low-intensity snowstorm plastered all over it. The picture is blurry because the noise seems to actually get worse with a signal and it also looks as if they are discarding resolution detail deliberately or perhaps accidentally. The box has firmware bugs galore, causing one PBS sub-channel to not decode at all even though the identical program decodes fine from a different PBS station. The channel add scan function wipes out the existing channel map so it behaves identically to a complete rescan and there is no way to manually tune or add channels. The program guide is 12 hour single channel but it behaves erratically, sometimes corrupted until momentarily tuned away and back again. The signal meter is time-averaged so it is difficult to see signal intensity changes. The sound is dull and lifeless from the RF output and there is a menu option to boost the sound amplitude (select the preferred audio output to 'channel 3/4' instead of 'line out') probably to compensate for this muddy sound problem, although even the line out sounds notably attenuated unless set to 'channel 3/4'. The only good thing to say about this box is that it has less of a tendency to drop out completely from signal fade (probably has something to do with the blurry picture, maybe they are throwing away significant picture detail in an attempt to make reception more reliable), and the sound is OK at least out of the line out jacks. The 12-hour program guide is a nice feature too.



My DS DTX9900 does not have the picture noise you describe. The PQ is very good for SD. Friends who have the same box have good PQ, as well. With its plastic housing, perhaps yours was picking up noise from a nearby device??

I believe that elsewhere on avsforum, rrrrroger has explained why the PQ from CECBs will always be inferior to that from DVDs.

Note that the update scan does not wipe out the existing channel map. I've done many update scans and never lost previously-captured channels even those currently at 0 signal strength.

I have not experienced the program guide corruption you report. Nor the problem with a single sub-channel. So I can't confirm them.

I did have an occasion where unusual propagation from a distant station added virtual subchannel 54-4 on an update scan. At that time, I was receiving the local 54-1 (has no subchannels) and the distant 54-4 on the same RF channel. Without the enhanced propagation, I now have 54-1 and 54-4 in memory, but a picture only on 54-1. But that's because there is no 54-4 from the local station.

The audio level issue vs. preferred output has been reported previously on avsforum. I can confirm that it is weak if not set to ch3/ch4. Also, the signal meter does respond slowly, as you mention.

I'm not defending the DS as the ideal CECB. As others noted on avsforum, all the existing boxes have issues. Then again, the ATSC tuners in my LCD TV and DirecTV receivers have annoying issues, too. Small issues like fewer watchable channels!

My experience with the DS - and that reported by more than a few other DTX-9900 owners - has been much better than what you have detailed.

I don't own the CM or Zenith, so I can't provide feedback on those.

I had both the DS and still have the Zenith. Like others have said their not perfect by any means but I've had better luck than it sounds like you did.
As far as the motion blur or blocky picture during scene transitions I have also noticed this, but basically only on stations that cram 5 SD subchannels onto one channel. I've noticed the blocking on all my tuners, not just the CECBs. At times it's very irritating but again this is more a transmission problem than with the CECB.
Cheryl, do you also have a TV with a digital tuner hooked up to your same antenna, if so how is the reception on that? I'm thinking that you may need a new antenna/wiring or possibly repositioning of your existing antenna. Just some thoughts.

Cheryl, It sounds like you have an antenna issue. The most important component of any TV reception system is a properly installed and tuned antenna system. You can own the most expensive TV set or converter box on the market but if your antenna system is weak your TV reception will NOT perform to it's full capacity.

I live in the San Fran Bay Area where there are stations galore, and I have a 10dB amplifier on my antenna. It is a simple indoor rabbit-ear and UHF coil type and yes I did double-check the setting on the antenna tuning switch to ensure the contacts are making OK. It is currently 'installed' on a table on my balcony, on the third floor, with a plastic bag covering everything but the rabbit ears (to protect the tuning switch from wind-blown moisture), and I have short cables spliced with 1) a through-the-wall barrel I borrowed from the cable company box, 2) the in-line amplifier, and 3) an ungrounded lighting arrestor barrel, for about 15' of cable total including the 6' that came on the antenna itself. I did check the connectivity of all the cables and swapped out any dubious-looking connectors, but none of it mattered to the signal meter.

Most of the stations are in the same direction so I assume they come from the antenna farm on the bridge over the Bay. I am admittedly on the east side of my building and the antenna position is very sensitive to placement and orientation because the stations are on the west side of my building, so multipath is an issue assuming that a significant amount of my signal is reflected from the building across the way, especially with the airplanes flying overhead on their way to/from SF airport, but I do not think that is causing any of these issues (read on).

Funny, I don't have any of the problems you mention at all with your Insignia on my CC Zenith box. It actually receives very well and solidly, and looks a lot better than I would've expected on my 768p Pio plasma (not that I'm planning on keeping it there). The best HD stuff does look at least as good as a better SD DVD, for sure.

The Insignia is probably defective. It had very solid reception when I first got it and then suddenly it was dropping out all over the place and the signal meter was wandering like a drunken sailor. Anyway I will find out when I replace it. Of all the boxes I tried, it does have the best picture by far, at least it did until it failed.

The only real beef I have with it is the guide, like you say, only because I'm so used to better. The remote is lame, but that can be remedied easily enough.

n4yqt is right - it does sound like you might have some kind of other issue causing many of the problems. Maybe some kind of interference, especially if you're seeing lines or speckles in the picture. Check all the cables, too.

As I stated, already checked.

Also, I believe you very well can add channels manually to the Digital Stream, and without losing the ones you have, too. You just punch in the actual (not virtual) digital channel number, and it should just program in there as long as it's picking up a signal (if it's not it won't work).

Thanks, I will try that to see what happens. Did not think of it. The other two boxes I tried have a special manual tuning menu selection that adds channels manually according to the RF channel number, not the re-mapped station number. Will DD add channels automatically just by tuning to them manually? If so, they really should have at least mentioned it somewhere in the non-existent manual that came with the box. I suspect that even if it lets me manually tune to a station, it will not remember it in the channel map. Anyway, how do I know what RF station to tune to if I want channel 43-2??? Do I have to go on-line to locate the channels in my area? What crap, that means that to find all stations manually I have to increment the RF channel all the way from 01 through 69, for 210 key presses total assuming 2 digits and the enter key.

How do I tell it to use RF tuning rather than re-mapped tuning? If I want to tune to RF channel 50 and there is already a re-mapped channel 50 in the channel map, how will it know which one I want it to tune to? Does it use the . key in the channel number (puts the - into the channel i.e. 43.2<OK> displays as 43-2 on-screen) to indicate re-mapped tuning, whereas a channel selection without the . key (i.e. 43<OK>) selects Rf channel? At least they should have put a note somewhere if that is the case...

Sorry, I am not holding out much hope for your suggestion, but I will re-check just in case I missed a manual tuning option somewhere.

I'm also pretty sure you can just do an "ez-add" scanover without losing the existing channels. I've actually never seen a Digital Stream/Accurian model where you couldn't do those things.

Keep in mind that the behavior I described, that whether I select scan-over or add, the box always erases the pre-existing map, could be either a firmware bug related to a specific early release, or it could also be a hardware defect in the specific box I purchased. These days, the motto is, 'ship it', and it is likely that these boxes are only tested as separate printed circuit boards on bed-of-nails with a simple set of boundary scan vectors before they go into the chassis, and via a specialized JTAG or equivalent scan chain interface plug before they go out the shipping dock, in order to keep the price low. I seriously doubt whether any human ever plugs the thing in to a wall socket and attempts to set it up and tune stations with a remote controller. These things are all done with highly specialized automation that has less than 100% test coverage by definition. In all the designs I ever worked on, the scan was added at 4AM by a super-geek running on No-Doz just before the verification crew came in for final simulations and scan coverage was always far less than 90% despite the promises we made to the customer (assuming we even implemented scan at all, which in some cases we did not due to budget/design constraints)...

Remember - the CECB boxes are only meant to keep analog sets receiving the local ATSC channels after the cutoff - nothing more. If you want a full-fledged A/V component buy the much more expensive Samsung or whatever. (Tivax and Coby, among others, make cheaper HD boxes.) You really can't be too picky about something that's costing you $0.00-$25.00, that the govt's. subsidizing. Where they're concerned, you should expect a certain amount of shoddiness involved. Like I said, having been around A/V stuff enough all these years, I'm actually surprised my Zenith is as good as it is, and I think it's well worth the $24.19 I'll be paying for it if I decide to keep it (I really do want those TR-40's, though!).

I myself am an electrical engineer and shoddy designs irritate me. It appears obvious to me that the picture quality on the boxes I purchased is deliberately inferior in order to keep... whatever marketing objective met, probably the one that says all CEO's must earn at least 100 times the salary of the lowest-paid employee of the corporation. (read on)

My DS DTX9900 does not have the picture noise you describe. The PQ is very good for SD. Friends who have the same box have good PQ, as well. With its plastic housing, perhaps yours was picking up noise from a nearby device??

That is a very good possibility. Thanks for mentioning it. I will try moving the box away from the TV and DVD player. I know that my DVD radiates like a nuclear reactor.

I believe that elsewhere on avsforum, rrrrroger has explained why the PQ from CECBs will always be inferior to that from DVDs.

Can someone please provide a link? I am curious as to the 'technical presentation'. I know that the broadcast information goes through the MPEG compander in order to save bandwidth, but that is actually pretty good and I do not expect to see much noticeable degradation on a 27" bargain 420i television even if the station is attempting to instantaneously jam lots of information through on multiple subchannels simultaneously. At worst I expect occasional glitch/jag, not every time the image cuts from one scene to the next and certainly not with aggravating motion blur every time an actor walks across the set.

Note that the update scan does not wipe out the existing channel map. I've done many update scans and never lost previously-captured channels even those currently at 0 signal strength.

My box not only wipes out channels that are no longer detected, it also wipes out the complete map, including the favorites and manual delete settings I already entered. I suspect that the firmware version I received out here on the bleeding edge of the market in Silicon Valley is probably about 50 revisions behind your firmware version. Apparently both the scan and the add selector options point to the 'flush the toilet' subroutine. The 'add' function is probably not implemented in the firmware version that shipped with my box, and of course this box does not have a firmware upgrade connector either (not that I actually believe that any company is seriously contemplating using the upgrade function even if they have the connector on the box).

I have not experienced the program guide corruption you report. Nor the problem with a single sub-channel. So I can't confirm them.

I did have an occasion where unusual propagation from a distant station added virtual subchannel 54-4 on an update scan. At that time, I was receiving the local 54-1 (has no subchannels) and the distant 54-4 on the same RF channel. Without the enhanced propagation, I now have 54-1 and 54-4 in memory, but a picture only on 54-1. But that's because there is no 54-4 from the local station.

I will check that out once the other Insignia converter box comes back... if I determine that it is once again working OK then I will have evidence of some other problem, but I am banking on both boxes having some hardware or firmware problem because the symptoms are so different.

By the way, it is actually 54-4 that does not decode, but my memory is that channel 54 here in the Bay Area does in fact have 5 subchannels, especially since 54-5 does work...

Maybe the problem is that the channel is V-ME which broadcasts in Spanish, and this box does not speak Spanish... no, sorry, it does decode the same substation on Channel 9 so that cannot be the problem either.:D

The audio level issue vs. preferred output has been reported previously on avsforum. I can confirm that it is weak if not set to ch3/ch4. Also, the signal meter does respond slowly, as you mention.

I'm not defending the DS as the ideal CECB. As others noted on avsforum, all the existing boxes have issues. Then again, the ATSC tuners in my LCD TV and DirecTV receivers have annoying issues, too. Small issues like fewer watchable channels!

My friend has a Mits LCD that will not tune a specific subchannel of Los Angeles 13. I did also read other posts here on AVS about the poor sensitivity of the tuners in the earlier sets. I sympathize with their unfortunate owners who rely on terrestrial programming.

My experience with the DS - and that reported by more than a few other DTX-9900 owners - has been much better than what you have detailed.

I don't own the CM or Zenith, so I can't provide feedback on those.

OK, so maybe I will give it another try before dropping it into the trash compactor. Maybe I should just return it and get my $25 back. I doubt that they will exchange it for a box with upgraded firmware until they rotate out their entire stock, and it was probably a one-time buy... (sound of glass breaking, enraged screaming in the distance, alarm bells ringing, 3-part harmony singing "I'm a Yankee Doodle Tandy").

I had both the DS and still have the Zenith. Like others have said their not perfect by any means but I've had better luck than it sounds like you did.
As far as the motion blur or blocky picture during scene transitions I have also noticed this, but basically only on stations that cram 5 SD subchannels onto one channel. I've noticed the blocking on all my tuners, not just the CECBs. At times it's very irritating but again this is more a transmission problem than with the CECB.
Cheryl, do you also have a TV with a digital tuner hooked up to your same antenna, if so how is the reception on that? I'm thinking that you may need a new antenna/wiring or possibly repositioning of your existing antenna. Just some thoughts.

I previously bought a steeply discounted, used Mitsubishi 62" LCD rear projector set and adjusted my antenna with that originally. That is how I determined what the optimal placement and switch tuning of the antenna is.

You know, despite seeing a 5-10dB increase in the signal meter, my 10dB amplifier does not seem to actually make any difference at all in the picture quality or reliability of either the converter boxes or the Mits. I suspect that unless there is a very long cable to drive from the passive antenna, or a signal splitter that divides the power, anything but a premium quality amplifier is just going to degrade the signal-to-noise ratio and corrupt the operation of the converter box or HDTV tuner. The performance of the tuners in all of the three converter boxes I tried was similar to the tuner in the Mits, at least they were all similar up until the Insignia/Zenith started misbehaving.

The Mits turned out to be in the process of failing too and I returned it to the jerk who tried to dump it on me. It was admittedly my first experience with receiving digital over the air and I was still getting my sea legs, but my recollection is that the Mits had none of the gross decoding artifacts I describe here. Perhaps this is a case of rose-colored glasses, but I presume that I would definitely have noticed severe station-related artifacts on a 720p 62" screen if they are now screaming bloody murder at me from a 27" 420i set. My recollection is that the HD stations were unbelievably sharp, even with a failing light engine that was causing the picture to be abnormally dark and unconverged, and had minimal motion artifacts and no jaggies even though I sat only 8' away from the 62" screen. It was truly a pleasure to have that set for the short time I had it, until it started going out to lunch with green diagonal stripes rippling across the screen...

It did have several issues related to a failing light engine and a failing controller board according to the tech who checked it out in my home. It was nearly dead after a week of use at which time I returned it, so I no longer have it available for comparisons, but what I remember of it was that it was a damn sight better than any of the converter boxes I have tried in virtually every respect, except that it was of course about to kick the bucket...

I used to think that I just have abominable luck, but after having seen so many similar issues with defective or unreliable consumer electronics affecting others I now know for a fact that the manufacturers are deliberately shipping defective junk, especially since I was famous for complaining about that at my own job when my marketing department forced me to ship garbage too before it was ready, ultimately costing us hundreds of thousands of dollars a few months down the road when we had to re-design major circuit board subassemblies by adding marginally effective power supply voltage and ground plane kludges to 'fix' chip problems I had pointed out in simulation months earlier.

I am glad that at least some of you have acceptable solutions. I still think however that the best option is to just wait until the current load of garbage makes its way out the pipeline. Let someone else be the guinea pig.

I should have the Insignia back in three days, and I should be able to replace it within the week. If I think of it later, I will let you know whether that one is really broken, or if it turns out to be something else flaky such as bad antenna contacts, atmospheric conditions, multipath...

and thanks again for the suggestion about re-locating the unshielded DD box. Aside from the grainy picture noise and the inability to add new channels after the scan, it seems to be working OK for me and the sound from the line out is good. If I can get the noise out of the picture it will be an acceptable solution and I like the 12 hour program guide.

For the RF channel numbers in your area check www.antennaweb.net or www.tvfool.com.

For the RF channel numbers in your area check www.antennaweb.netDon't.  Check www.antennaweb.org (http://www.antennaweb.org)or www.tvfool.com (http://www.tvfool.com).That one is right.

You know, despite seeing a 5-10dB increase in the signal meter, my 10dB amplifier does not seem to actually make any difference at all in the picture quality or reliability of either the converter boxes or the Mits. I suspect that unless there is a very long cable to drive from the passive antenna, or a signal splitter that divides the power, anything but a premium quality amplifier is just going to degrade the signal-to-noise ratio and corrupt the operation of the converter box or HDTV tuner. The performance of the tuners in all of the three converter boxes I tried was similar to the tuner in the Mits, at least they were all similar up until the Insignia/Zenith started misbehaving.

I believe your are absolutely correct. Unless you have long cable runs or a many tap splitter the signal amp will only make matters worse. After going all digital in my house I got rid of the 20db distribution amp I had for years and notice no change in PQ. In fact I get less signal strength swing on several channels. It did help for analog TV but not with digitals. BTW it was a better quality UHF/VHF amp.

Don't.* Check www.antennaweb.org (http://www.antennaweb.org)That one is right.Thanks.

Funny thing is, the one I listed takes you to a similar looking site. I just briefly checked out the link and the home page after I typed it, and I assumed it was correct, because I knew they had changed their design since the last time I was there.

OK, so I tried again yesterday to see what is going on with this Digital Stream DTX9900 box...

First, the subchannel 54-4 is now decoding OK, so maybe it was a temporary station problem or an intermittent firmware issue.

Second, the program guide seems to be incomplete under unknown circumstances. I changed channels downward and channel 43 PBS program guide had all the titles but the descriptions were not there. I went one station past and came back up to 43-1 and the guide was fully filled in. The descriptions truncate after 7 lines however. I guess if I sometimes have to momentarily change channels off-station to fill the guide that is a minor annoyance rather than a catastrophe, but my concern is what if the guide is filled in wrong and I do not notice?

Third, the auto-scan is working as it should. I think I may have gotten confused about whether black lettering on yellow or white lettering on blue is the active color of the button. Black on yellow is consistent active button at all menu levels, but white on blue is not consistent inactive button at all levels, and I may have thought I was updating when I was actually re-scanning, especially since most menus in general use white as active and gray (sort of like black) as inactive.

Fourth, manually adding channels does in fact work. By tuning a station without using the . key i.e. 12<OK> instead of 12.1<OK>, I am able to tune to an RF station, and if a signal is present the station is added automatically to the channel map. The manual makes no mention of this however. Once added to the map, it is also necessary to edit the map to make the channel active or favorite, or the channel up-down keys will skip over it. In contrast, auto-scan automatically makes all the found channels active. If there is already a re-mapped channel 12.1, however, the box will automatically tune to channel 12.1 if I enter 12<OK>. I did try zeroing the channel map and manually tuning to 12<OK> to see what happens, and if the re-mapped channel has not yet been found it just tries to tune the RF channel without automatically tuning the re-mapped channel. I cannot tell which one takes priority but I hope it is the RF channel. There is no way to test for that here because there are no re-mapped channels with the same number as the RF channel of another local station.

Fifth, the picture definitely has a sideways pixel 'shimmer'. It affects both the decoded signal and the on-screen menus and it noticeably degrades the picture. I tried isolating the plastic box and even wrapped it in aluminum foil just before popping it into the oven, but nothing doing, that picture noise is a function of the output stage, not the input stage or environmental noise. Perhaps the digital signals are inducing timing artifacts into the d/a conversion stage, maybe the converter is getting a noisy clock or something. I did notice a huge ferrite bead on the power cord too so maybe they have some sort of noise issue. The picture is even worse when using the Rf output - there is noticeable ghosting immediately following the menus.

Sixth, I did notice that routing the antenna wire through my VCR does reduce the signal level, so that means that the analog pass-through function on my (ancient) VCR is lossy. That may have accounted for the sudden loss of performance with the Insignia box. I will find out later this week when that Insignia box comes back. In the meantime I will connect the VCR on the output side of the DS converter box now instead, since I would rather record a clean digital picture than a noisy analog one. The sensitivity of the tuner in the VCR is atrocious and recording directly off the air is just about impossible anyway.

Seventh, I found the channel map that I had written down after scanning with the Mitsubishi, and there are three additional channels that it found, but I do recall that two or three channels had such poor signal that they never actually produced a picture and I never took note of the RF channel so I do not know where to look for them using manual tuning (I might check that other web site, thanks). After auto-scan, I did find one RF channel with the Digital Stream using manual tuning that had a non-zero signal level so that probably accounts for one of the three additional channels that the Mitsubishi found, but the signal level never got high enough to generate a picture or to add the channel to the map. I guess I can try moving the antenna around and re-scanning but there seems to be only one sweet spot on my balcony. Fortunately it is conveniently close to the cabling and off to one side of the balcony.

Comparing the three boxes, I found the Channel Master picture decoding to be just unacceptable (as was the price), and if the sound is really corrupted on the Insignia/Zenith as reported that is also unacceptable. The slight sideways pixel shimmering degradation of the Digital Stream picture clarity is annoying, but the 12-hour program guide and uncorrupted audio makes up for it, so I guess my final vote is for the Digital Stream. It also has a nice remote control with the capability to change the volume and captions on my TV. I have plenty of cables so the lack of RCA cables is not an issue for me.

Final vote - Digital Stream, or none of the above for the picky.

Perhaps, but they got dragged kicking and screaming into the transition by the FCC.

That's very debatable. The story is much more complicated than that. I recommend Joel Brinkley's book "Defining Vision" for a good history of the development of high-definition television in the USA. The television broadcasting industry was the one that got the ball rolling, although they might not have liked where it went. Digital television was inevitable, even though it didn't even exist when various groups were promoting the idea of high-definition television. They were thinking analog, with additional bandwidth being used to carry a high-definition augmentation signal. This would prevent additional raids on the television spectrum by other groups, make us competitive with Japan, and assist the domestic consumer electronics industry.

I bought 2 Digital Stream DTX9900 boxes and am very pleased with them.
I did take one of them back as defective because when using the RF out (on this particular box), I would get a snowy picture intermittently. This only seemed to happen after the box warmed up after 10-20 minutes of use.When using the RCA cables on this box, there was no snowy picture.
I always shut off my DTX9900 when I turn off the TV because there have been posts here about heat issues with this box.
I noticed the shelf getting very warm under one of my DTX9900 boxes, so I decided to rip a 2x4 piece of wood into two 2x2's and use these as feet. The box seems to run cooler this way.

Here are my observations of the Digital Stream DTX9900 vs the Zenith DTT900, both of which I bought about a week ago. Overall I like the operation and features of the DS unit better, but the Zenith has a significantly more sensitive front end in it. For the sensitivity comparison I used the same outside antenna and the same NTSC television receiver. Keep in mind that that this was made by comparing only one of each of these models and there could be individual performance differences amongst different converter boxes. So if I lived in very hot signal area, I would be happier with the DS, but since I live in a slightly marginal reception area, the Zenith is my preference. I would be interested to hear if others have done side by side comparisons.

The Zenith seems to have everything I need, but I won't be buying anything until late-June earliest . . . to see if the EchoStar actuall comes out at $40 . . . I gave my rationale on the following thread
www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13964169#post13964169

Comparing the three boxes, I found the Channel Master picture decoding to be just unacceptable (as was the price), and if the sound is really corrupted on the Insignia/Zenith as reported that is also unacceptable. The slight sideways pixel shimmering degradation of the Digital Stream picture clarity is annoying, but the 12-hour program guide and uncorrupted audio makes up for it, so I guess my final vote is for the Digital Stream. It also has a nice remote control with the capability to change the volume and captions on my TV. I have plenty of cables so the lack of RCA cables is not an issue for me.

Final vote - Digital Stream, or none of the above for the picky.
The new Zenith boxes, april build, resolved the audio problems. Almost all of the neg press on it was due to that.

I bought Tivax STB-9 and Artec T3APro from Digital Star ($10 total after coupons), local pickup. Like Tivax little better (Picture Quality) but Artec is passable (no audio problems) as well.

Very happy with the Zenith here - definitely recommend.