The title pretty much says it all. Let me explain.

My church youth group is looking to upgrade their projector. Right now we have a room with zero ambient light from the outside (all the windows are blocked). Room lighting can be controlled via dimmer, but some lighting is necessary during presentations and so forth. I don't think we could get by with a sub 1000 lumen projector, which seems to encompass most quality HD projectors in our price range.

There will be the occasional film/video watched, so I would like to have the best color accuracy we can. We are limited to a budget of around $6k. The screen we have now is junk, so it will be replaced. I can be flexible on screen size to help with selecting a projector., but needs to be large enough for a service with 80 youth.

Inputs aren't as important as image accuracy, price, and light output. We will probably use an external switcher/scaler to feed the projector from a couple of PC's and maybe a Blu-ray player.

Using the Projector Central search, the only PJ to fit my criteria was the Optoma HD81-LV. Looking at the Cnet measurements for the Optoma, it looks like there is some left to be deisired with the primaries. I also did a forum search, but everything I have found so far deals with PJ's in the 1000 lumen range.

I'm not much of a FP guy, so forgive me if I have overlooked something. I'm looking for suggestions on a PJ that will fit the bill for us. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

I own an Epson Pro 1080UB and I love it. I have owned several projectors over the years. Lemme ask you a question emcompassed in an answer if I may.

Why the hangup with 1080p? I mean 720p in a church has to be a magnitude leap from where you likely are now and no more HD content than you're likely to watch on it, what difference does it really make? A lot of people (not here LOL) can't tell 720 from 1080 to begin with.

Save your church some cash and be a hero. Get yourself a Panasonic AX200. It's a LIGHT CANNON. I owned an AX100 before I graduated to the Epson and I loved it. You can buy one for <$1500 and you'll be a hero on all fronts with the church. Everybody will love it and you saved them $4k. It's a no-lose scenario.

Just my 2 cents worth. YMMV... :)

The title pretty much says it all. Let me explain.

My church youth group is looking to upgrade their projector. Right now we have a room with zero ambient light from the outside (all the windows are blocked). Room lighting can be controlled via dimmer, but some lighting is necessary during presentations and so forth. I don't think we could get by with a sub 1000 lumen projector, which seems to encompass most quality HD projectors in our price range.

There will be the occasional film/video watched, so I would like to have the best color accuracy we can. We are limited to a budget of around $6k. The screen we have now is junk, so it will be replaced. I can be flexible on screen size to help with selecting a projector., but needs to be large enough for a service with 80 youth.

Inputs aren't as important as image accuracy, price, and light output. We will probably use an external switcher/scaler to feed the projector from a couple of PC's and maybe a Blu-ray player.

Using the Projector Central search, the only PJ to fit my criteria was the Optoma HD81-LV. Looking at the Cnet measurements for the Optoma, it looks like there is some left to be deisired with the primaries. I also did a forum search, but everything I have found so far deals with PJ's in the 1000 lumen range.

I'm not much of a FP guy, so forgive me if I have overlooked something. I'm looking for suggestions on a PJ that will fit the bill for us. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Hopefully somoene will chim in to correct me, but I don't think what you're looking for exists. You might be able to find 2 out of the 3, though. And your goal then would be to make the best compromise for your setup.

If you need to sit 80 people, you're going to need a pretty big screen and a pretty bright projector. Any idea how many inches wide we're talking about here?

You make a very valid point. that 2500 lumen requirement is going to be a tough nut to hit given the dollar criteria we were also challenged with. That requirement almost graduates into a "venue" type projector and those aren't generally available for < about $10k from what I can tell.

I also believe, given the posters confessed experience (or lack thereof) level, that requirement might be more of something he's been told or heard somewhere rather than a measured and known requirement. That's why I think the AX200 would be fine and perfect.

If he wants to throw a 200" screen, he needs to get ready to shuck a lot more $$ than he has budgeted. If he's willing to live with a sub-13x" screen (like that's a compromise), there's a lot of low-hanging fruit out there that would suit his needs nicely AND save him some money, IMHO.

I hope he also realizes that he's subjected himself into a forum that deals almost exclusively in 16:9 aspect ratio projectors. I know a lot of churches are used to 4:3. There's basically nothing out there in the 4:3 HT market anymore which is what this forum is mostly about. Not that it should be a problem, but he does need to understand that we talk about 16:9, for the most part, as if it were a "given" and he may not have known that (16:9, 133" diagonal screen, for example, and not 4:3, 133").



-bob

Also important to the 2500 lumen objective at that price will be the fact that contrast ratio wasn't listed in his criteria. My 'first thought' was that no, it doesn't exist... but then I realized that I was implicitly adding my own notion that blacks have to be really good too - but he didn't list that. This would seem to put those 'conference room light cannons' into consideration.

Also important to the 2500 lumen objective at that price will be the fact that contrast ratio wasn't listed in his criteria. My 'first thought' was that no, it doesn't exist... but then I realized that I was implicitly adding my own notion that blacks have to be really good too - but he didn't list that. This would seem to put those 'conference room light cannons' into consideration.

True but he mentioned "accurate primaries" so gamma is going to come into play which brings black levels into play. It's a vicious cycle. LOL

It's not 1080p, but there was a pretty nice 3 Chip 720p DLP floating around for under 10k a while back that might have done very nicely. Anyone remember what this was or if it's still available or if maybe it has even come down in price since then? Was it the Kodak 333? Or something like that?

A fair number of high lumen projectors are listed here...

http://www.activelight.com/digitalprojectors/default.asp

Thanks for all the input guys. I'll be the first to admit I'm a rookie in the FP category.

The 1080p thing is my "AVS-itis" kicking in. Wilson-Flyer is right in that 720p would be a marked improvement. There is some merit to us having a 1080p PJ because we can always feed it 1080p... our sources will likely be two computers and a Blu-ray player. I don't know how much 1080p would benefit vs. 720p for things like text in PowerPoint presentations. Given the size of the screen and the seating distance, you may be able to notice some difference. In any case, if I had to give up something, I'd probably give up 1080p in favor of 720p as the first compromise.

As for the lumen output, I am "guesstimating." This thing will have to pull some double duty at times. In our main sanctuary we have some Sanyos (model escapes me) that are very high output (>7000), but also 4:3 SD and quite expensive. The difference is that the youth room actually has the chance to control the lighting, where the main sanctuary does not. The youth service is generally much more revolved around electronic media and such. The light level in the youth room is always subdued in comparison to the main sanctuary, but it isn't exactly bat cave dark. I'm not sure how to measure the average light level in there without a lux meter (which I don't have). Can you fudge it with a colorimeter at all? I have a Display LT.

I don't know what screen sizes are common (if any), but I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 8 -10' wide (not diagonal). Our seating is about 5 rows deep, so we can be as wide as 15-20 people at times. The good thing is that the PJ, screen, and seating positions can all be easily moved to accomodate.

I'm trying to live on the edge here between a good HT setup and the typical "conference room light cannon." I just can't bring myself to go buy the cheapest thing with high output. I really want to do this the best I can so that everyone can see what they have been missing out on.

Any other suggestions you guys have would be great. I'll answer any questions you have for me. I'm all ears :)

Also important to the 2500 lumen objective at that price will be the fact that contrast ratio wasn't listed in his criteria. My 'first thought' was that no, it doesn't exist... but then I realized that I was implicitly adding my own notion that blacks have to be really good too - but he didn't list that. This would seem to put those 'conference room light cannons' into consideration.


Well, I was implicitly putting in good black level as well :). I'm an AVS nut too, so anything you are thinking probably applies to my situation. I'm trying to get that HT feel, while still being able to cut through some ambient light when I need to, on a fairly tight budget.

All the typical things we look at.. contrast ratio, grayscale tracking, primaries, decoding, etc... I'm looking for all of that within a budget. Like I said, it is a pretty tall order, but I figured if anyone would know it would be you guys.

I own an Epson Pro 1080UB and I love it. I have owned several projectors over the years. Lemme ask you a question emcompassed in an answer if I may.

Why the hangup with 1080p? I mean 720p in a church has to be a magnitude leap from where you likely are now and no more HD content than you're likely to watch on it, what difference does it really make? A lot of people (not here LOL) can't tell 720 from 1080 to begin with.

Save your church some cash and be a hero. Get yourself a Panasonic AX200. It's a LIGHT CANNON. I owned an AX100 before I graduated to the Epson and I loved it. You can buy one for <$1500 and you'll be a hero on all fronts with the church. Everybody will love it and you saved them $4k. It's a no-lose scenario.

Just my 2 cents worth. YMMV... :)

I think 720p is going to open up a lot more options. I just read a little on the AX2000U and it looks impressive, especially for the price. Rated at 2000 lumens, we might be able to work with it. Still open to other options...

EDIT: Scratch the next part, just found the thread in the Sub 3k forum.
Anybody got a CIE chart or some actual measurements on one of these? At that price I'm sure there are some concessions made some where... anything I should be aware of?

Panasonic Ax2000

Very accurate colors right out of the box.

Great light output

Amazing placement flexibility

I think 720p is going to open up a lot more options. I just read a little on the AX2000U and it looks impressive, especially for the price. Rated at 2000 lumens, we might be able to work with it. Still open to other options...

EDIT: Scratch the next part, just found the thread in the Sub 3k forum.
Anybody got a CIE chart or some actual measurements on one of these? At that price I'm sure there are some concessions made some where... anything I should be aware of?

I think it will too (720p open up a lot more options).

Do yourself a favor if you haven't already and go read Art's review of the AX200 at http://www.projectorreviews.com/panasonic/pt-ax200u/index.php . You'll be glad you did. ;)

Kodak 333 (rebadged and firmware altered InFocus 777 3 chip DLP) - Very high lumens, accurate colors and primaries, world class PQ, 720p. This is the unit to own if you can still find one (try AVS...they had a bunch of them at one time).

I have a Canon SX50 that I'm happy with.
The Canon sx60 can be had for $2800 now, has 2500 lumens, and has accurate colors that can be somewhat adjusted.

It's 4x3 1400x1050 though. Also, I'm not sure how good its deinterlacing/scaling is since I'm running it with an Iscan HD+. (although an HD+ might be cheap nowadays).

I think it will too (720p open up a lot more options).

Do yourself a favor if you haven't already and go read Art's review of the AX200 at http://www.projectorreviews.com/panasonic/pt-ax200u/index.php . You'll be glad you did. ;)

Will do. Right now the AX200 is in the mix.

Kodak 333 (rebadged and firmware altered InFocus 777 3 chip DLP) - Very high lumens, accurate colors and primaries, world class PQ, 720p. This is the unit to own if you can still find one (try AVS...they had a bunch of them at one time).

By AVS you mean this forum? I'm confused, I didn't know AVS sold anything. I must have my acronyms mixed up :)

EDIT: Well, I found the store. Actually had no idea that there was any such thing. I must be blind. Do you have to call them? I couldn't find anything that listed their products for sale, just links to manufacturers sites.

I have a Canon SX50 that I'm happy with.
The Canon sx60 can be had for $2800 now, has 2500 lumens, and has accurate colors that can be somewhat adjusted.

It's 4x3 1400x1050 though. Also, I'm not sure how good its deinterlacing/scaling is since I'm running it with an Iscan HD+. (although an HD+ might be cheap nowadays).

I'll take a look at it. I don't know if we want to go 4:3 or not, but thanks a lot for the input.

So, it takes 2500 lumens for God's work, huh?:rolleyes:

I think the kids need to learn, "We didn't get a 1080p PJ and only this donated lowly 27" SDTV using s-video, but the $6k went to research into curing the ills of humankind."!

Well, thanks for that useless input. Isn't there a forum rule against bringing up religion?

The only reason I even mentioned it was for a church is so that people would understand the application...

Kodak 333 (rebadged and firmware altered InFocus 777 3 chip DLP) - Very high lumens, accurate colors and primaries, world class PQ, 720p. This is the unit to own if you can still find one (try AVS...they had a bunch of them at one time).

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of in my post earlier in this thread. Seriously, if I was looking for a high lumen HT projector for a big venue like this, on a budget, this is the projector I'd be looking for.

So, it takes 2500 lumens for God's work, huh?:rolleyes:

I think the kids need to learn, "We didn't get a 1080p PJ and only this donated lowly 27" SDTV using s-video, but the $6k went to research into curing the ills of humankind."!

WTF?

So, it takes 2500 lumens for God's work, huh?:rolleyes:

I think the kids need to learn, "We didn't get a 1080p PJ and only this donated lowly 27" SDTV using s-video, but the $6k went to research into curing the ills of humankind."!

WTF?

Ok, I apologize. I'm glad the money a church saves on tax exemptions is going to a good use, 80 happy kids. I don't get any tax exemptions and therefore can't afford a 2500 lumen 1080p projector too, I guess I'm just jealous.

Reio-Ta - My instinct was to look for the digg button, but I was on the wrong site. :) I agree with you on the issue, but this is clearly not the right forum for that debate. See you at http://www.richarddawkins.net/social/index.php. ;)

Now back to our regularly scheduled on-topic discussion to which I have nothing to contribute but am interested in hearing everyone else's response...

By AVS you mean this forum? I'm confused, I didn't know AVS sold anything. I must have my acronyms mixed up

EDIT: Well, I found the store. Actually had no idea that there was any such thing. I must be blind. Do you have to call them? I couldn't find anything that listed their products for sale, just links to manufacturers sites.
Yes, you will need to call them on this particular item. This was originally a $30k 3 chip DLP light cannon which Kodak wrote some custom software for in order to achieve greater light output. I doubt that ANYTHING will beat it for your purpose.

The Pannys have high light output (though nowhere near the advertised 2000 lumens - I measured one), but at the expense of color accuracy. When they are color accurate they only put out 400 to 500 lumens. You need a 3 chip DLP if you truly want a light cannon, and the Kodak is the deal of the century in this regard if you can still get one.

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of in my post earlier in this thread. Seriously, if I was looking for a high lumen HT projector for a big venue like this, on a budget, this is the projector I'd be looking for.

Yes, you will need to call them on this particular item. This was originally a $30k 3 chip DLP light cannon which Kodak wrote some custom software for in order to achieve greater light output. I doubt that ANYTHING will beat it for your purpose.

The Pannys have high light output (though nowhere near the advertised 2000 lumens - I measured one), but at the expense of color accuracy. When they are color accurate they only put out 400 to 500 lumens. You need a 3 chip DLP if you truly want a light cannon, and the Kodak is the deal of the century in this regard if you can still get one.

Thanks guys. I'll call AVS and see if they have any left. If you guys run across a lead to one, would you kindly PM me or post it (is posting it legal?).

Bob, what kind of adjustments does the Panny have to bring it color accurate? Does it have some type of CMS?

Thanks again for all the help everyone. I'm reading up as fast as I can, but I couldn't possibly investigate every PJ in the time frame I need. I appreciate you guys taking your time to help.

Bob, what kind of adjustments does the Panny have to bring it color accurate? Does it have some type of CMS?
If I remember correctly the Panny uses filters in the light path to color correct the output, thus reducing the lumens considerably. Again, IIRC it was called the "cinema mode" or something along that line. When the Panny is in its brightest mode the PQ is just awful...not even watchable by most anyone's standards (or at least anyone in this forum).

I would give Jason Turk a call on the Kodak. If he doesn't have one he may know where you can pick one up elsewhere. You can also ask him about any other units that might fit your needs as he has experience with many different units, but I really think that the Kodak will be the right choice for you.

Gremmy, I just read your first post...You beat me to it...:) Kodak 333 is the right name and the last I knew it was selling well under $10k (something like $6k or $7k...I am not sure).