I decided to listen my classic rock sacd's today that I have had for a while but never listened to. I started with Billy Joel's "The Stranger" and "52nd Street". Both had many vocal problems such as vocals in the rear only or not even audible. The actual music sounded fine though. Some songs were great, like "Just the Way You Are" from "The Stranger" and "Honesty" from "52nd Street" but most of the other songs were screwed up.

Just to test my setup I put in:
Pink Floyd - DSOTM
Bob Dylan - Another Side of Bob Dylan
Elton John - Elton John
Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road

They all sounded great with vocals perfect in the center.
These 2 Billy Joel sacd's are definitely the re-released multi-ch ones, and when I switch to the stereo layer they sound fine.

So, any ideas? Is there some setting that would be unique to these discs but not the others? I am thinking that either I have faulty discs or they are supposed to be this way, in which case I don't understand the positive reviews as I find it unlistenable on the MCH layer.

My setup is an Oppo 980 connected to a Pioneer VSX-816 with 6 analog cables.

Thanks

Is your centre channel connection broken?

Has your Oppo got any test tones you can run to check every channel's going to the right place over the multi-channel analogue connection?

Thanks.
The center channel seems fine. I am listening to Dire Straits BIA dual disc right now and it sounds great. I will try some test tones in a bit just to see.

I have listened to The Stranger on my Sony 400 SACD /DVD changer and it didn't have a problem like this. I have recently picked up an Oppo 980. I can try it sometime tomorrow or early next week as I am out of town atm.

Doug

I have listened to The Stranger on my Sony 400 SACD /DVD changer and it didn't have a problem like this. I have recently picked up an Oppo 980. I can try it sometime tomorrow or early next week as I am out of town atm.

Doug

Thanks, I would appreciate that.

I've got "The Stranger" and it plays properly on my Oppo 970, connected via HDMI to my Yamaha HTR-6090. There are more vocals in the surrounds than on some other MCH recordings I own (especially compared to the Elton John's), but it doesn't sound bad by any means. "Scenes from an Italian Restaurant" is phenomenal, IMO.

"Scenes from an Italian Restaurant" is phenomenal, IMO.

You're making me jealous. I want my Billy Joel:(
I used to have a 970 before I sold it and got the 980. I hadn't tried them on that. I wonder if the 980 might be different in some way, or else my discs are bad, which would seem odd that it is both of them. All of my other discs except these 2 play great so it is not my setup.

FWIW, I listed to both Billy Joel discs last night and they played fine on a Denon 2900 connected via 5.1 analog. Most of the vocals were very strongly in the center.

I wonder if there could be some odd interaction between an Oppo 980 and these discs for some reason? I can't imagine what in the mastering/player could cause that though if other discs play correctly.

"Scenes from an Italian Restaurant" is phenomenal, IMO.

Agreed, absolutely brilliant. The way Ramone mixed this disc is quite predominant in the bass guitar as well, which might catch you a little off guard the first time the bass kicks in, but it's bloody brilliant. I love the sax as well.

This tune definitely rocks the house.

If I recall correctly up front the only vocal comes from the center channel, there's no spread to the fronts.

You're making me jealous. I want my Billy Joel:(
I used to have a 970 before I sold it and got the 980. I hadn't tried them on that. I wonder if the 980 might be different in some way, or else my discs are bad, which would seem odd that it is both of them. All of my other discs except these 2 play great so it is not my setup.

If I recall correctly up front the only vocal comes from the center channel, there's no spread to the fronts.

I don't have either of these Billy Joel disks, so this is just a thought-experiment for me.

trenz1: You mention that DSOTM plays fine for you. That SACD's MC mix has almost no use of the center channel - the vocals are phantom centered using L+R fronts, and either none or next to none in the center channel. Only the sax intro from Us and Them is primarily from the center channel.

davcole's comment makes me think your center channel is AWOL for some reason. You never reported on your test tone results - anything interesting?

shinksma

I can't find a way to use test tones over the analog from the Oppo. I do know that the speakers are setup properly because I also have my pc hooked up and was able to use test tones from the x-fi sound card. All of my other sacd/dvd-a's that I have played so far also sound fine.

Do you know of a specific track that I could use to test this. I have many classic rock surround dvd-a's and sacd's

Dylan
Foreigner
Fleetwood Mac
Beatles "Love"
Queen
Elton John
The Police

also
Blue Man Group
Crowded House
Dr. Chesky
Flaming Lips
and others
If there is a good track to test the speakers let me know however I do think it is the discs that are messed up. I bought these at CircuitCity.com a while ago so I doubt I can exchange them.

Thanks

trenz1: You could try "Candle in the Wind" from GBYBR and listen for background vocals in the rear channels. I think Elton's voice is limited to the center most of the time, but I seem to remember surround vocals on some of the harmonies.

Also, on the opening of "Because" on LOVE, there should be chirping birds in the surrounds before the singing begins.

trenz1: You could try "Candle in the Wind" from GBYBR and listen for background vocals in the rear channels. I think Elton's voice is limited to the center most of the time, but I seem to remember surround vocals on some of the harmonies.

Also, on the opening of "Because" on LOVE, there should be chirping birds in the surrounds before the singing begins.

I think trenz1's problem is that he/she's not always getting vocals (that would normally be centered in the front) from his Joel disks, and sometimes only hears it faintly, in the rear channels only, or not at all.

Trenz1: Since your 2-ch layer plays fine, your FL and FR speakers/channels are fine.

Again, I think you need to try something that is known to be center-channel specific, like the sax intro or solo to Us And Them from DSOTM (I think it is intro and solo, but check both just in case). That's a dead give away - if you can hear it clear as day, the center channel is just fine, and your Joel disks are weirded out. On the other hand, if it is very muted or almost gone, then your center channel signal is getting lost somewhere.

I can't say for sure whether any of the other disks you list have a strong center channel for anything in particular - I'd have to go home and try a few.

I would also try a to generate test tones from your receiver - almost all of them have them. If that also shows no center channel response, you know the problem is isolated to your receiver or speakers or wiring in between. My bet is wiring because that is so easy to have go awry without noticing.

shinksma

Thanks to you guys for trying to help. I did try test tones from my receiver and the center was fine. I also tried the tracks mentioned and the center worked fine for those. I am thinking that it would be a longshot that both discs were messed up so it must have something to do with the Oppo 980 and these discs. Hopefully UT-Driven will respond back as he has the 980

Thanks again

Disconnect all analog audio cables. Connect the Front Left analog audio cable to the Front Left output of the DV-980H. Repeat along the entire analog output stage.

Do all of the output channels produce audio through the Front Left speaker in this manner when playing back a multi-channel SACD?

trenz1,

I have both of these discs and the Oppo 980H. I will check when I get home this evening and post the results. Keep in mind that my Oppo is connected via HDMI and not analog. However, I also have an Integra DPC 8.5 DVD changer that's connected via analog and I have played both of those discs with that player with no problem.

I just got the Oppo a couple of months ago so I don't remember if I've played the Billy Joel discs on it yet. I have over 300 multi channel SACD/DVD-As and haven't had time to play them all with my new system yet.

I will post my findings later this evening.

I just got done listening to Billy Joel The Stranger and 52nd Street. They both sound fantastic played from the Oppo 980H via HDMI to my Integra 9.8.

Perhaps you got some defective discs since all the rest of your SACDs play just fine. Are the discs in good condition with no nicks/scratches/dirt? I'm not sure what else might be causing your problem. Perhaps you could get someone else to play your discs on their 980H and see if they play fine with their player.

Based on Mitch57's positive response, I would have to suggest there is something awry with the 980's set-up, the cabling, or the receiver's set-up. I find it difficult to believe the disks could be damaged in just the right way that only the vocals on certain tracks get affected and everything else sounds fine - the data is too tightly coupled for that to occur.

I suppose it is possible there was a run of disks that were made from a bad master, and the vocals were not present in the source. If so, hang onto those disks - they'll be worth a very pretty penny!

Maybe the Oppo is set-up for a weird speaker config (like 4.1), and the receiver is sometimes successfully re-constituting the center channel because it is in an advanced PLxII mode or something, and other times loses the info.

trenz1: can you go through your Oppo's set-up menu and write down everything, do the same for the current listening mode of your receiver, and then post here? Maybe we can help you pin-point the issue a bit more. Also, I do recommend the test Neuromancer suggested - that would show that the Oppo's analog outs are being driven correctly, and would further isolate the issue to perhaps the center channel input of your receiver.

Dunno, just tossing ideas out there. I like to solve interesting problems, and this one gets more and more interesting...

shinksma

Both Joel's surround mixes are Billy's vocal centre channel only (except for some ambient echo in the rears).

Is your centre speaker connected/balanced ?

Ok guys, I figured it out.
I used a combination of all the ideas here.
The test tones from the receiver showed the speakers and receiver were ok.
As Neuromancer suggested I tested all of the Oppo outputs to the front speaker and got sound from each, so I knew the Oppo was ok. Then I ran only the center out to the receiver and low and behold, Billy Joel vocals front and center. As you all probably figured wiring :o

I am using an analog switcher so I can have surround from my pc also. I guess somewhere along the line the input where the Oppo center was connected went bad. I tried snugging all the cables and no go so I just unplugged everything and moved it to another input. Works great now.
Funny thing is that after I had it working I tried the original center input again just for the heck of it and it worked. Go figure.

I suppose I was hearing the front speakers and thinking it was the center. My fronts are only about 8 inches from the center so not a lot of separation for testing purposes.

With some more testing it seems some Billy Joel songs have a lot of bleed to the front and some don't. I also tested the Elton and Dylan discs again with the center connected and disconnected and there is also a lot of vocals from the front speakers of those. That is probably why I thought some songs worked and some didn't on the Joel and the other discs sounded good. No center is also the most likely reason the Dire Straits BIA sounded better in dolby than mlp

I am going to stop testing the connection before I break something permanently. Everything sounds awesome now.
Mods can move this to the audio setup forum now since the discs are fine :D

"Scenes from an Italian Restaurant" is phenomenal, IMO.
I can now agree with this.

Thanks again guys

Both Joel's surround mixes are Billy's vocal centre channel only (except for some ambient echo in the rears).

I don't find this to be the case with my setup. As I type this I am listening to 52nd Street. I unplugged the center for testing

Big Shot: no front vocals, almost unnoticable bleed to the rears
Honesty: very strong vocals in both FL and FR
My Life: no front vocals but stronger bleed to the rears than Big Shot

This is why I thought Honesty was ok but the others were messed up.
It seems a lot of discs have strong bleed to the front. I thought all of the discs I tested this week sounded fine even though I didn't realize I had no center. They do sound much better now though.

Thanks

I am glad you were able to figure it out. I have had the flu for over 4 weeks now and didn't get a chance to check out the discs in my Oppo yet.

Doug

I listened to "The Stranger" last night. There is definitely at least one song with a great deal of vocals coming from the surrounds. It was so distracting that I FF'd my way to the next song. All in all though, a fine sounding album.