:D:D:D:D:D
http://www.electronichouse.com/article/update_pioneer_to_quit_all_plasma_business/C157?utm_source=eh&utm_medium=side

Wow this does come as a surprise:(

Wow this does come as a surprise:(

It doesn't to me. Even though pioneer has done great things with plasma sets over the years (not always the best but one of the constant contenders) they just don't work off of the model of consumer electronics today. No one can get stuck in the middle. IMO, you are either low production very high margin with lower sales or high volume, low margin, high sales. I see pioneer as a company in the middle of these two and it just won't work anymore. The same thing has happened to many A/V stores over the last few years. While they are not completely gone, the idea of a store that is 1-2 steps (always arguable what a step is of course...) above a store like best buy or circuit city is a fading dream as the big box and internet has taken hold.

It stinks IMO because the two brands i've loved to sell clients over the last 5+ years or so since flat panels started actually moving at all have been pioneer elite and fujitsu, both probably somewhat gone. That being said, lets hope pioneer manages to make a great set out of the panasonic glass, fujitsu usually managed to do that :(

From the way I've read the press releases, Pioneer isn't finished hammering out all the details with Panasonic.
It's very likely that Panasonic will be manufacturing glass to Pioneer. spec and the resulting product could just be a Kuro produced at a more marketable price with the same result in picture quality that Pioneer originally intended.

The ElectronicHouse headline "Pioneer to Quit All Plasma Business" is just as misleading as the title of this thread, which was Peters wishful thinking.

I'm sorry Peter, I know you would really rather have the Kuro's gone, ala Fujitsu but that's just not gonna happen. At the very least through the 2008 model.
Which is still supposed to be 1/2 the depth of the 2007 mdl. and blacker still, using less energy. Which leads me back to, it has to be the Pio glass spec that Panasonic will be producing in order to accomplish this!

OHH MAN....you are sooo bad Peter :eek: :)

The Plasma section of the forum has been discussing this for almost a week:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1003092

Sanjay

It stinks IMO because the two brands i've loved to sell clients over the last 5+ years or so since flat panels started actually moving at all have been pioneer elite and fujitsu, both probably somewhat gone:(

I'm sure you feel bad for your clients but I'm someone elses client and as a client, how the hell you think I feel right about now?
I'm batting a thousand over the last 18mo.
I've bought a 55" Fuji, a 60" Kuro Elite and a loaded Theta Digital CBIII.
Can I make any worse pics before the year is out?
Maybe there is a great projector out there that someone would like to see gone soon, just steer me towards it and your problem is solved :(
It's a koiyce I tells ya (in my native ny slang) ya dats it, a Koiyce!

As I read the news.
Pioneer G9 comes out this year from in house production. The last true true Pioneer plasmas. Then later on Pioneer will buy in manufacturing capacity from another company possibly with the manufacturing line somehow adapted to the Pioneer technology.
Then there is talk about Pioneer/Sharp dong the Kuro thing but with lcd. I am optimistic for both plasma and lcd.

In the end, I believe the collaboration will end up bringing out some exciting 10 lumen tech in 2009 from both manufacturors.

Look for a 70" 9mm bezel pdp in late 2008.

I'm sure you feel bad for your clients but I'm someone elses client and as a client, how the hell you think I feel right about now?
I'm batting a thousand over the last 18mo.
I've bought a 55" Fuji, a 60" Kuro Elite and a loaded Theta Digital CBIII.
Can I make any worse pics before the year is out?
Maybe there is a great projector out there that someone would like to see gone soon, just steer me towards it and your problem is solved :(
It's a koiyce I tells ya (in my native ny slang) ya dats it, a Koiyce!

I think you need an hd-dvd player. I hear amazon still has a few hdx2's for $800+ left over :D

to clarify, i don't feel bad for the client as I've always felt that by offering them a pioneer or fujitsu i've at least offered them one of the best displays available and did the right thing by them.

I didn't know Pioneer Kuros were $20,000+...or is this topic maybe in the wrong thread?

thread is OK here...

I'm surprised plasmas lasted this long, though i guess it's just because LCD quality hasn't really progressed in contrast as I might have expected. Plasmas do look better, but for the most part, this flat panel stuff we sell is just a back up for the front projector anyway.

I'm surprised plasmas lasted this long, though i guess it's just because LCD quality hasn't really progressed in contrast as I might have expected. Plasmas do look better, but for the most part, this flat panel stuff we sell is just a back up for the front projector anyway.

Come on, I hope your last comment was tongue in cheek because many people well never purchase projectors due to space limitation etc.
A good 60" pioneer kuro has an excellent picture and is far superior to most LCDs and many projectors.


Here's the latest word from Engadget

If you're all broken up about Pioneer's seeming exit of the plasma business, take heart. Pioneer Executive Vice President Russ Johnston claims Pioneer's plans aren't to abandon Kuro-quality plasma displays in any way. The move to an outside manufacturer (Matsu****a, parent company of Panasonic) is designed to cut cost in plasma production, but Pioneer still plans to maintain its premium edge over competitors. "The number-one goal is to make sure we can maintain our differentiation," said Russ, "and specifically our Kuro difference in the marketplace." Apparently Pioneer will be still be responsible for the video circuit and processing, the color filter strategy and other such secret sauce, and the company is confident Matsu****a can step up to the Pioneer level of panel production -- even if it might involve sharing a few trade secrets along the way. Apparently Matsu****a is slated to start providing the modules by 2009.

Who is the beneficiary of Fujitsu and Pioneer announcements? Panasonic, Samsung, and LG don't have high end cache. Other than Runco, who is there? Maybe NEC.

Come on, I hope your last comment was tongue in cheek because many people well never purchase projectors due to space limitation etc.

No space too small or too big for a front projection.

Yep, no need to cry for Kuro. First of all, we're still going to get our Kuro goodness with Pioneer-manufactured panels through this calendar year. After that, it looks like we'll still get it with Panasonic glass. I'm looking forward to picking up one of them myself in a month or two!

No space too small or too big for a front projection.

There are spaces too bright for one. Like 90% of rooms in most houses...

i'm surprised the public prefers largely more lcd than plasma (in france: 1 plasma for 8 lcd !)
blacks are so better on plasma. perhaps lcd is indeed sharper looking and people like it

all this aside from price consideration

methinks also Pioneer lost a lot Panasonic, which sells everywhere and allows also dumped prices (not good for dealers)
pioneer forced strict dealerships and heavy investments to be a dealer.
some resellers thus prefered to avoid this and switched to other brands.
the new Pana generation should hit hard with hig c ratio and no more anti glare stuff that reduces c ratio
but as some say here Pioneer is not really exiting this market.

No space too small or too big for a front projection.

Ok assuming your assumption is correct, what is the ratio of top of the line front projectors to top of the line plasma screens in the USA homes?

:D:D:D:D:D
http://www.electronichouse.com/article/update_pioneer_to_quit_all_plasma_business/C157?utm_source=eh&utm_medium=side

Peter, you really disappoint me. It amazes me that someone who professes to be a videophile could take such delight in the news, that the company who is almost universally recognized as building the best flat panels ever, is exiting the market (sort of). Very odd.

But Peter, the bad news for you is that between the sharing of glass patents with Panasonic and the inclusion of Pioneer's processing and electronics, Pioneer will continue to produce the highest quality plasmas out there. In fact, the improvements seen at CES will arrive as planned under the new manufacturing scheme.

I think either the Florida sun has gotten to you Peter or you're not quite the videophile you profess to be. :rolleyes:

I think you need an hd-dvd player. I hear amazon still has a few hdx2's for $800+ left over :D

to clarify, i don't feel bad for the client as I've always felt that by offering them a pioneer or fujitsu i've at least offered them one of the best displays available and did the right thing by them.

Let me clarify as well, as a client, I really do not feel bad at all. If I've been cursed with owning those products, it's certainly been a curse I can learn to live with and in no way feel my dealers have done me any kind of diservice.
I love both of those displays and I couldn't imagine anything else in their place.
Ok, I can imagine something else in there place, that's what I'm doing in this forum in the first place!
I'm just not certain what it'll take to get me to make a move to a projector.
I've looked at them since their remotes were hard wired with thick cable, that's a very long time.
It's a great thing that these kinds of panels have come on the scene and from quality dealers. I'm sure there are other guys around like me.

And yes, I bought an HD-DVD player too, I don't know how it slipped my mind.

Why gloat over the fact that these great screens may dissappear?...:confused:

From a calibration angle it's a big loss.

:confused:Dimitri

Ok assuming your assumption is correct, what is the ratio of top of the line front projectors to top of the line plasma screens in the USA homes?

Very low, but what does that have to do with anything? If you're 10' from a screen, it should be at least a 92" diagonal to get the "last row of a theater" effect. Our front projector to plasma ratio is infinitely large, having not sold any plasmas at all and never will. They have gotten better at a faster rate than LCDs, but LCDs have gotten cheaper at a faster rate.

Too bad about that whole SED thing. I would have liked to at least have seen one.

Although I don't own a Pioneer plasma, it reminds me of when Sony called it quits making CRT televisions. I had just bought a 34" for over $2k only to see them sitting in the clearance area of BB and CC for $400. I wanted to walk out of the store with the last of them but at 250 pounds for a 34" I decided not too.:D

Sad to see production a top notch display end, usually to be replaced by jumbo sized computer monitors.

I'm surprised plasmas lasted this long, though i guess it's just because LCD quality hasn't really progressed in contrast as I might have expected. Plasmas do look better, but for the most part, this flat panel stuff we sell is just a back up for the front projector anyway.

Perhaps to your clients, but everyone doesn't feel the same way or see it the same way.

I didn't say they did. Just that the writing has been on the wall for plasma for awhile. They'll hang in for a little while longer, but eventually, it's going to be just a niche product.

It wouldn't be the first 'niche product' with superior performance that failed to survive.

please have a look at the statement of Pioneer;


http://pioneer.jp/press/pdf/ir/080307_restructuring-e.pdf

the German productmanger added a letter, that they are talking with several suppliers; they want to go on with the KURO-LINE on Plasma,

Also they are planning, to on in frontprojectors too

hhelmut

I say good ridance...

Very low, but what does that have to do with anything? If you're 10' from a screen, it should be at least a 92" diagonal to get the "last row of a theater" effect. Our front projector to plasma ratio is infinitely large, having not sold any plasmas at all and never will. They have gotten better at a faster rate than LCDs, but LCDs have gotten cheaper at a faster rate.

Too bad about that whole SED thing. I would have liked to at least have seen one.

My point is simple, the vast majority of people will buy televisions of any configuration. They're far easier and simpler to buy and set up. High performance projectors represent a tiny portion of the HT market so if you want to fill this small niche fine, but all this plasma bashing in this thread blows my mind! In a small 12 x 14 foot HT room like mine, placing a 60" hi quality plasma on the wall only 8 ft from my chair is a hell of a lot easier than fooling with screens, projectors and all the headaches of adjustments. Sixty inches is plenty big enough for most people including myself.
Also, who's talking about cheaper LCDs?, as far as I'm concerned plasma has always been far superior to LCD, of course many people would disagree.

I can't believe plasma is on the way out at this time. Maybe in the future 5 to 10 years out but not now. Where are all the superior technologically advanced televisions to replace plasma at this time?

high-end (expensive) video and audio sells to a very small market and is obviously not a profitable business segment for Pioneer. Panasonic by the way have excellent plasma screens, are nearly as good as Pioneer and sell for quite a bit less.

As for the LCD vs Plasma argument...well plasma is obviously better quality but that is completely irrelevant when you can see your entire room reflected in the screen. LCDs are just more practical in the world's well-lit family rooms (where 99.9% of TVs go). It's an incredibly tiny population (most of whom are present in this forum) that build dedicated rooms to watch tv and movies. And most people aren't that picky about the quality of the image; for most people there is very little difference between good and exceptional....and it certainly isn't worth thousands of dollars.

I'm not exactly celebrating here, just commenting that plasmas were always lower quality than a CRT and had so many negatives in terms of reliability and price. They have gotten better at a faster rate than LCD which hasn't gotten much better at all and that has prolonged their life. But I do see a major collapse coming and have for several years and this is the leading edge of it. I always thought they had something of a florescent look with a too visible pixel structure, so if you have to watch at night to get a good picture, might as well get front projection.

I'm not exactly celebrating here, just commenting that plasmas were always lower quality than a CRT and had so many negatives in terms of reliability and price. They have gotten better at a faster rate than LCD which hasn't gotten much better at all and that has prolonged their life. But I do see a major collapse coming and have for several years and this is the leading edge of it. I always thought they had something of a florescent look with a too visible pixel structure, so if you have to watch at night to get a good picture, might as well get front projection.

YOU ARE NOT VERY WELL INFORMED. Plasmas are far superior to crt, thyey just are not a viable propostition, as far as the Kuro it serves them right for decimating the higher end plasma market with their stupid obsession with darkness and commodity prices.

Kuros are not dead. The official word we got Friday was that the Kuro line will continue with glass from Matsushista and LCDs with panels from Sharp. They will still be made by Pioneer, just with glass from Panny. They will still maintain the Kuro quality, and Pioneer says the new plasmas will be even better.

Kuros are not dead. The official word we got Friday was that the Kuro line will continue with glass from Matsushista and LCDs with panels from Sharp. They will still be made by Pioneer, just with glass from Panny. They will still maintain the Kuro quality, and Pioneer says the new plasmas will be even better.

I was planing on buying their next gen Kuros.

YOU ARE NOT VERY WELL INFORMED. Plasmas are far superior to crt

Not to my eyes they're not. The best ones seem to be about as good in many ways, but nothing like 'far superior'. I'd be careful with the 'not very well informed' statement, Mr Pot.

My rep from Elite sent me this link, just in case anyone needs verification they are not dead:

http://www.techradar.com/news/television/new-tvs/the-truth-about-pioneers-plasma-pull-out-259633

Not to my eyes they're not. The best ones seem to be about as good in many ways, but nothing like 'far superior'. I'd be careful with the 'not very well informed' statement, Mr Pot.
http://smiliesftw.com/x/highfive.gif

btw, once Pioneer starts getting the Panny glasses at much cheaper prices, we shall see Kuro and Extreme_contrast_Kuro displays at fractions of their current costs!

can't wait to get 60"+ of this goodness for cheap:

http://cybertec.smugmug.com/photos/206214906-L.jpg http://cybertec.smugmug.com/photos/206214922-L.jpg http://cybertec.smugmug.com/photos/206214931-L.jpg http://cybertec.smugmug.com/photos/206214947-L.jpg
http://cybertec.smugmug.com/photos/206970242-L.jpg http://cybertec.smugmug.com/photos/206970289-L.jpg

I was told we would not see more than a $500 price drop. That all of the savings in costs will be going towards Pioneer's bottom line.

Doc

Good info.


ssabripo

Sweet pics.

I predict that all flat screen TVs will be sold under one brand name. Just like all restaraunts will be named Taco Bell. ;)

BTW, Peter, don't you worry. There will always be rich stupid folks who will be swayed by your charms and BS. :p

I'm not exactly celebrating here, just commenting that plasmas were always lower quality than a CRT and had so many negatives in terms of reliability and price. They have gotten better at a faster rate than LCD which hasn't gotten much better at all and that has prolonged their life. But I do see a major collapse coming and have for several years and this is the leading edge of it. I always thought they had something of a florescent look with a too visible pixel structure, so if you have to watch at night to get a good picture, might as well get front projection.

You are living in the past. Many (most) attributes of a plasma are superior to a CRT. Let's list a few:

* Perfect convergence
* Perfect linearity
* Perfect focus
* Perfect color uniformity
* No shadow mask issues when the unit heats up
* Black levels that essentially equal that of a good CRT with shadow detail (in Kuro models)
* Better reliability (contrary to what you said) than a CRT
* No visible scan lines as with a CRT
* No flicker

There are others, but I won't go on. My point is that you obviously haven't lived with a high-end plasma or you wouldn't have said this.

Kuros are not dead. The official word we got Friday was that the Kuro line will continue with glass from Matsushista and LCDs with panels from Sharp. They will still be made by Pioneer, just with glass from Panny. They will still maintain the Kuro quality, and Pioneer says the new plasmas will be even better.

I mentioned that before but it appeared to be ignored (apparently by some who wish it weren't so).

Peter,

On a brighter note, your tact unit that u love got a great review in TAS.( Absolute Sound)

In summary, the 12.1 system made all others sound bad.

No luv for pioneer is probably du to the fact that it doesnt exactly roll off the tongue like fujitsu to the south fl crowd eh ?

Cmon be real- just acknowledge that blacks and contrast are important- although exaggerated in kuros marketing.

PJs need to evolve as well as plasma just let it happen.

You are living in the past. Many (most) attributes of a plasma are superior to a CRT. Let's list a few:

* Perfect convergence
* Perfect linearity
* Perfect focus
* Perfect color uniformity
* No shadow mask issues when the unit heats up
* Black levels that essentially equal that of a good CRT with shadow detail (in Kuro models)
* Better reliability (contrary to what you said) than a CRT
* No visible scan lines as with a CRT
* No flicker

There are others, but I won't go on. My point is that you obviously haven't lived with a high-end plasma or you wouldn't have said this.

Maybe, but have always seen ugly motion artifacts and too much space between pixels and a less natural color.

Maybe, but have always seen ugly motion artifacts and too much space between pixels and a less natural color.

Not on a high quality 1080p plasma like the Pioneer Kuro. If you can see space between the pixels on a 1080p panel at typical viewing distance, may I suggest you stay away from Kryptonite. Additionally, if you were able to see this space, you most certainly can see scan lines on any CRT!!! There's a reason the Pioneer Kuros are on everyone's 'best panel' list. Some reviewers have called it the best HDTV of any technology in its size range.

Well, haven't seen that one i don't think. Just talking generally. Of course, keep in mind, when they say 'in that size range', that's a big hedge! CRTs still rule in the studios and saying 'of that size' is likely to keep from being compared directly to one of them.

Well, haven't seen that one i don't think. Just talking generally. Of course, keep in mind, when they say 'in that size range', that's a big hedge! CRTs still rule in the studios and saying 'of that size' is likely to keep from being compared directly to one of them.

John, the flaw in this logic is that the real high quality CRTs are broadcast monitors and not consumer CRTs. Even the best consumer HD CRTs are just a shadow of the quality of broadcast equipment. When one considers that a 25" broadcast HD CRT (hardly home theater size) can run about $25,000+, it's a bit silly to compare that to a 60" high quality plasma.

The valid comparison is comparing one type of high-end consumer equipment to another...and that's where Pioneer Kuros shine. It will beat out, IMO, the best consumer HD CRT ever made. ;)

yes, well, how many plasmas are used at all in a studio, there's the flaw in your theory ;)

yes, well, how many plasmas are used at all in a studio, there's the flaw in your theory ;)

No flaw my friend. First off I'm not arguing that a $25,000+ 25" professional-grade monitor is not superior to ANY technology out there. Do you see a bit of a price disparity per inch of screen size between a professional monitor and a plasma (or any other consumer grade TV technology)? Second, plasma screen sizes BEGIN at 42" and that is way too large for a studio monitor. Have you ever been in a control room? Typical monitors are far smaller than that due to size constraints and the number of monitors used.

The way I understand it the industry is moving away from crt even the broadcasters.

John, the flaw in this logic is that the real high quality CRTs are broadcast monitors and not consumer CRTs. Even the best consumer HD CRTs are just a shadow of the quality of broadcast equipment. When one considers that a 25" broadcast HD CRT (hardly home theater size) can run about $25,000+, it's a bit silly to compare that to a 60" high quality plasma.

Nonetheless shops that do HD mastering for Blu Ray are putting in LCD models because the CRTs don't show some of the problems with the masters and compression. :)

Second, plasma screen sizes BEGIN at 42" and that is way too large for a studio monitor.
Or most studio monitors used are too small and don't show mastering problems clearly enough (such as EE looking nice on the monitor and horrible when projected large).

I was planing on buying their next gen Kuros.
Me too (or OLED if big enough). Guess I have a stupid obsession with darkness instead of perfect (DLP) colors. :D

This really saddened me. After installing my Kuro and getting it calibrated, it's the most stunning video device I have owned. Yes the technology will eventually filter out and be improved, but now it is already phenomenal.

Price is all that matters these days. Quality is dead.

Or most studio monitors used are too small and don't show mastering problems clearly enough (such as EE looking nice on the monitor and horrible when projected large).

When I talk 'studio monitors', I'm referring to broadcasters.

This really saddened me. After installing my Kuro and getting it calibrated, it's the most stunning video device I have owned. Yes the technology will eventually filter out and be improved, but now it is already phenomenal.

Price is all that matters these days. Quality is dead.

Your spirits could be lifted by a high end Bose system!

I was going to bite the bullet last xmas and get an elite kuro, but with so many complaints about buzzing issues, I held off till Pioneer addresses this issue. My panny plasma is as quiet as can be. So it's a design fault imo. But I agree that the picture performance is stunning!

I was going to bite the bullet last xmas and get an elite kuro, but with so many complaints about buzzing issues, I held off till Pioneer addresses this issue. My panny plasma is as quiet as can be. So it's a design fault imo. But I agree that the picture performance is stunning!

I have been to many stores looking at the PRO-150FD and heard a slight buzzing from every one them, however, if you have the volume up to 10 (Which is very low) or higher, you simply can not hear the buzzing. When you sit 8+ feet away from it, you can not hear it at all. I just bought the PRO-150FD ELITE KURO. Maybe the newer ones are better.

I just received a new 150-FD myself. Pioneer has fixed the buzzing problem with a new power supply- I hear no buzzing at all. My dealer tells me I have one of the first "fixed" units, which just started arriving in the U.S. I was also told, if the buzzing bothers you Pioneer will replace the power supply.

I just received a new 150-FD myself. Pioneer has fixed the buzzing problem with a new power supply- I hear no buzzing at all. My dealer tells me I have one of the first "fixed" units, which just started arriving in the U.S. I was also told, if the buzzing bothers you Pioneer will replace the power supply.

There's a "buzz poll" thread running over at the plasma forum.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=949003

I think if you post what you're dealer says Pioneer will do if you should happen to have this problem over there, a couple of hundred people will likely beg to differ.
I'm lucky enough have a 150 since Sept. with no isssues.

On another note, these units are all assembled in the US to begin with.
If anything "fixed" just started to arrive here, it's that power supply!

Not to my eyes they're not. The best ones seem to be about as good in many ways, but nothing like 'far superior'. I'd be careful with the 'not very well informed' statement, Mr Pot.

Ask any calibrationist (without an agenda), and they'll side with CRT all day, every day. It's not relevant anymore, but it is a fact.

If someone wants to claim "plasmas look better than CRT" the issue of which plasma and which CRT are we discussing. If not, it's a flail in the dark to make a point about it.