Hey Guys,

So I've been running my XG 110LC at 1280x960x72hz 4:3 from my HTPC. Looks great, I use the HTPC to watch standard def TV and DVDs

So I'm planning on getting some new imputs for the HTPC a blu-ray Rom and over the air HDTV.

I watch a lot of 4:3 stuff and any widescreen stuff I just let the HTPC letter box. I like having a fixed resolution from the HTPC since nothing ever jumps and I only have set of settings for the projector.

I'd like to keep using a 4:3 resolution, should I keep the one I'm using now or go for something else.

I was thinking 1920x1440 interlaced ... that way I can watch 1080i stuff with letter boxes on the top and bottom and any 4:3 material will fill the whole screen.

What do you guys think will it be too soft? will the flicker drive me nuts?
Am I a fool for not just using 1080p for blu-ray stuff and switch to an appropriate res for 4:3.

Thanks Brian

Try it. Since you're using an HTPC, I'd use the Windows icon lettering as a guide as to whether the resolution is too high or not. Soft fuzzy letters means too high a scan rate. Sharp solid letters = you're just fine..:)

1080i at 96hz, 16:9.

4:3 is so, you know, 'eighties.

What do you guys think will it be too soft?

1440i 60 will not be that soft. Weird yes, but not soft.


will the flicker drive me nuts?

While I don't like the look of it I cannot say that it is physically aggravating - you got a PC why not try it ?


Am I a fool for not just using 1080p for blu-ray stuff and switch to an appropriate res for 4:3.

Short answer: Yes :D

Long answer: I suggest to try 1080i 72, 1080i 96/1080p 48 or 1080p 60 for Blu-Ray and whatever you use now for Video. The resolutions I mentioned are progressively harder to set up, with 1080p 60 being hardest both on you and the projector and 1080i 72 just letting the projector loaf along.

And Mark is right - 4:3 is sooooo 80ies and SD 4:3 looks like crap, too after you watched some 16:9 HD. I know I could not possibly stand it to have that ugly stuff bigger than my HD sources.

And Mark is right - 4:3 is sooooo 80ies and SD 4:3 looks like crap, too after you watched some 16:9 HD. I know I could not possibly stand it to have that ugly stuff bigger than my HD sources.

More like 1930's :) I’m beginning to think 16:9 looks old fashion after looking at several of the CIH theaters here & it seems like 85% of the new BR released are 2:40/2:35 anyway.

I am thinking a CIH screen is in my future.

Mike

More like 1930's :) I’m beginning to think 16:9 looks old fashion after looking at several of the CHI theaters here & it seems like 85% of the new BR released are 2:40/2:35 anyway.

I am thinking a CIH screen is in my future.

Welcome to the world of wider screens :)
I am doing 2.15 to 1 and wider since 1999 and I would not have it any other way - it really gives you the needed impact for those movies with a 2.2:1 and wider AR.

1080i at 96hz, 16:9.

4:3 is so, you know, 'eighties.

Can you post your powerstrip timings for that?

this is good

Ummm ok there mathew,

Sorry Jesse I can't post powerstrip timings, I have a linux box running MythTV.

I haven't tested anything yet but I'm thinking of setting MythTV to switch resolutions depending on what the source material is ... not sure if its possible but might be worth looking at.

Thanks for the help guys.

This is Kai's 1080i 96hz timing:
"C:\Program Files\PowerStrip\PStrip.exe" /TARGET:1 /t:1920,40,96,240,1080,54,14,97,137073,542

Here is a screen shot for 1080p@72Hz on a 1351, I don't think its too soft.

http://www.acdnow.com/theater/fullframe.jpg

Mike

Can you post a close up of a 1:1 black/white lines test pattern?

Can you post a close up of a 1:1 black/white lines test pattern?

You mean the one where there are alternating squares with horizontal lines and solid grey ? ;)

this is good.

:D

Here we go into the I don't watch test patterns back and forth.:rolleyes: I agree that we don't watch test patterns, but they do give a standard basis for comparison. I think some people will be satisfied with a single digit MTF especially in the corners, where others would cry it is to soft. It would be nice to get some MTF readings on some of these different resolutions, but I believe Scott is the only one with a Micron. I would love to see a MTF shoot-out between different pjs as well. It would probably confirm what I believe to be true and that there is very little difference between pjs with the same tube lens combo.

Can you post a close up of a 1:1 black/white lines test pattern?

It's not the greatest but there is some line structure. Note: blue defocus in on.

http://www.acdnow.com/theater/1to1.jpg


Mike

If that is 1080p 72 Hz then I am impressed.

It is acceptable (to me anyway) to show just green or red - blue defocus wrecks it.

Yes that is 1080p72Hz, I will try to grab a shot of the red and green only. I used a simple little test pattern program I wrote for pattern. I don't like the Seiko program.

http://www.acdnow.com/hairspray/testpattern.png

If anyone would like to try it download it here. (http://www.acdnow.com/misc/testpattern.zip)
Just unzip it and run it.

You MUST have MSDot net 2.0 framework installed.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=0856EACB-4362-4B0D-8EDD-AAB15C5E04F5&displaylang=en

It has 2 commands:
Press "S" to setup the line brightness.
Press "Esc" to exit the progam.

I have spent ton of time on magnetic focus. So you may not get these results. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ADJUST YOUR MAG FOCUS, YOU CAN REALLY MESS UP THE PROJECTOR. It takes a lot of time to get it right.

I get about the same pattern on all squares except the lower right. It still needs some work to be honest I'm not doing a lot of stress about it.

But now for fun...A couple of screen shots. :)

http://www.acdnow.com/hairspray/Michell.jpg

http://www.acdnow.com/rat/gradmagun.jpg

Mike

It's really not that much better with green only. But there are still lines present.

http://www.acdnow.com/theater/1to1green.jpg

Mike

Ahh....doesn't look so good now. The blue was hiding it.

See how the vertical green lines are basically just a dark grey box? That box should be the same colour as the horizontal line box, and the black/white lines should be visible.

Like the attached image (Xtra at 1080i 72hz), which isn't perfect, but is better for eveness between H and V lines.

However, this may not make much difference to apparent detail on the screen, so if you like what you are using, stick with it.

It is impressive that ANY black/white lines are visible at all - I'm astounded actually. I don't think my XG will do that at 1080p 72hz, it's struggling at 1080i 96hz (same as 1080p 48hz).

Post your timings please? (Again..). If it is above 75khz I'll swap my Osc board for a 1101 board, and give it a go.

Mark

Mark here are the timings:


http://www.acdnow.com/theater/1080p72.png

BTW the dark specks are cause by the Parkland Plastic screen material. They are not visible from a normal distance. I need to start looking into a new material. Kind of thinking about going AT but it cut in to my garage space I need to find out how much room it takes behide the screen. Everything hinges on how this econo-blend concept works out with the TVOne cards.

Mike

Mike,

this is a Runco 930 (PG extra based) at 1080p.
Frankly I do not remember if that was at 1080p 48 or 1080p 60 but as you can see the vertical lines are more visible than with your XG.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8695/dscn2050ew6.jpg

Maybe you have set up the projector to screen distance as per the manual ?
In that case I would not expect much more line visibility.

Oliver

Mike, I'm surprised you use positive, positive sync.

My NECs always prefered negative, negative.

Kai

Mike,

this is a Runco 930 (PG extra based) at 1080p.
Frankly I do not remember if that was at 1080p 48 or 1080p 60 but as you can see the vertical lines are more visible than with your XG.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8695/dscn2050ew6.jpg

Maybe you have set up the projector to screen distance as per the manual ?
In that case I would not expect much more line visibility.

Oliver

Those patterns from your PG extra look really clean. Mine is mounted closer then manual but could go closer. It is mounted with unistrut + I have a chief electric lift so it’s not hard to move. I need to be sure I can get enough width though before move it moving, the porch settings are very low as is and while the width is not maxed out it's very high.

One odd thing is I can’t see much difference with running 1080p@60Hz, the pattern does not improve much.


Mike, I'm surprised you use positive, positive sync.

My NECs always prefered negative, negative.

Kai

Thanks Kai, that interesting there is nothing about those timing laid in stone. I can and will try negative.

Mike

Here's a shot of the center section.

NEC 6 PG Plus, 1080i96:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104932&stc=1&d=1205783991

Here's a shot of the center section.

NEC 6 PG Plus, 1080i96:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104932&stc=1&d=1205783991

Very clean, did you use my little app for the pattern?

If so is are there any other patterns you would like to add or change?

I can post the source if anyone else would like to dig into it too also. There is really not much to it, took about an hour to write.

Mike

yes, I used your little app

1 on 1 off diagonal would be cool too.

and 2 on 2 off versions of horizontal/vertical and diagonal.

Kai

Those patterns from your PG extra look really clean. Mine is mounted closer then manual but could go closer. It is mounted with unistrut + I have a chief electric lift so it’s not hard to move. I need to be sure I can get enough width though before move it moving, the porch settings are very low as is and while the width is not maxed out it's very high.

One odd thing is I can’t see much difference with running 1080p@60Hz, the pattern does not improve much.

Mike

Mike,

you might indeed want to try and improve the pattern a little, hard to say what it is but it should look better as the PG really looked better but I had to crank the contrast for the photos and then I could still not get a proper autofocus - no manual on that POS camera. As you can see the pics by Mark, Kai and me are overall pretty similar and your XG should be in the ballpark with regard to the vertical resolution at least, horizontal will be different due to your usage of 72 Hz.

I might try that pattern of yours on my 10PG tonight :)

Oliver

I usually run 1280x720@71.928hz but I tried 1920x1080i@96hz for the last few days. It looks quite good although much brighter for some reason. It's a pretty good setup for an XG.

yes, I used your little app

1 on 1 off diagonal would be cool too.

and 2 on 2 off versions of horizontal/vertical and diagonal.

Kai

Done!

http://www.acdnow.com/misc/testpattern2.png

Download here! (http://www.acdnow.com/misc/TestPattern.zip)

You may also move the four outside patterns closer to the corners.

Press "S" to enter the setup dialog.


Mike

Here's a shot of the center section.

NEC 6 PG Plus, 1080i96:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104932&stc=1&d=1205783991


Crap. That's better than my XG 751 (now LC).

I can't get my XG as sharp as the Xtra was :(

But then again, I couldn't fit the LC gear in the Xtra easily, and the XG has NEW TUBES.

Crap. That's better than my XG 751 (now LC).

I can't get my XG as sharp as the Xtra was :(

But then again, I couldn't fit the LC gear in the Xtra easily, and the XG has NEW TUBES.

HEHE...maybe we should start a thread called "Test Pattern Wars"?

Mike

I can't get my XG as sharp as the Xtra was :(


Is this also true for the center of the tube ? I always found the LC units to be lacking to the sides and croners but the center line was usually fine.


But then again, I couldn't fit the LC gear in the Xtra easily, and the XG has NEW TUBES.

But it can be done, even with the larger G70 assemblies :)

Oliver

Done!

You may also move the four outside patterns closer to the corners.

Press "S" to enter the setup dialog.


Mike

Mike, that looks very neat, might I suggest to also include a bottom, top and side left and right pattern for a total of 9 instead of 5 patterns ?

That would be very helpful for top/bottom and left/right focus and focus balance :)

But even as it is this is a very nice tool for focussing and astig.

Thanks !

Oliver

Is this also true for the center of the tube ? I always found the LC units to be lacking to the sides and croners but the center line was usually fine.



But it can be done, even with the larger G70 assemblies :)

Oliver

The centre is ok. I still don't think the HD-18s are quite as sharp at the 1mm size compared to HD-144s, and you need to step up to HD-10s to catch back up.

My XG seems to run out of bandwidth at 1080i 96hz, even compared to Kai's Plus, and despite the fancy dual amp neckboards. PG's kickass. I think VERY HARD before swapping an Xtra for an Air Coupled XG.

Yes, I've seen the G70 tubes in the Xtra. Using a GP3000 bracket I believe. Very impressive.

Mike, I'm surprised you use positive, positive sync.

My NECs always prefered negative, negative.

Kai

It doesn't seem to matter with Xtras and XGs.

That's interesting, Mark.

Here's a new screenshot of my test pic:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1982/img37571600wgb2.jpg

Kai

Looks nice enough....but the 1:1 pattern is much more telling.

Mike, that looks very neat, might I suggest to also include a bottom, top and side left and right pattern for a total of 9 instead of 5 patterns ?

That would be very helpful for top/bottom and left/right focus and focus balance :)

But even as it is this is a very nice tool for focussing and astig.

Thanks !

Oliver



I was thinking the same thing, I will do tonight. Of all the things M$ screws up the Dot.net framework is something they really got right.


BTW Great shot Kai!

Mike

Here's a shot of the center section.

NEC 6 PG Plus, 1080i96:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104932&stc=1&d=1205783991

Nice work, Kai !

For a smaller screen or one with higher gain the PG+ is a fantastic projector, I did not find it to be much different in focussing ability to the PGextra or even the NEC XG.

I think we agreed before that the PG+ was very much underappreciated and your screenshots prove it.

Oliver

That would be very helpful for top/bottom and left/right focus and focus balance :)

But even as it is this is a very nice tool for focussing and astig.

Thanks !

Oliver

New Version Download Here. (http://acdnow.com/misc/testpattern.zip)

Now has 9 blocks. Saves the current settings to the registry when you exit.

I can do a Convergence Pattern (Cross Hatch) If you think its worth the effort.

Mike

I posted a suggestion over on Curt's site

Kai

New Version Download Here. (http://acdnow.com/misc/testpattern.zip)

Now has 9 blocks. Saves the current settings to the registry when you exit.

I can do a Convergence Pattern (Cross Hatch) If you think its worth the effort.

Mike

Mike, that looks very nice, thanks !

If you do a cross hatch please do one that can be individually expanded in the vertical and horizontal dimension. If you have as many grids as with the fine point in an NEC you can probably cover all CRT projectors and their grids.
If that is too much of a hassle don't bother as fixed patterns are plentiful and not really needed IMO.


It would also be helpful if surplus grid lines could vanish beyond the screen borders, not sure if that is possible.

Oliver

Oliver, that's exactly what I suggested over on Curt's site :)

the "beyond screen borders" part won't work though, as that would have to be "in the porches", and thus not visible.

Kai

Oliver, that's exactly what I suggested over on Curt's site :)

the "beyond screen borders" part won't work though, as that would have to be "in the porches", and thus not visible.

Kai

:)

With beyond screen boarders I meant kind of a zoom function where part of the grid could just be zoomed out of the picture area.

I am not even sure this is needed but it might be more intuitive with projectors that have a coarse grid like the Sony 1292 or even the 1251 and 1252.

In any case that focus pattern is really really neat, I will try it on my 10PG today.

Oliver

Sounds good....I will try a few things. We can tweak them as we go.
Mike

great :)

Hi,

took a screenshot today of the new pattern with my 10 PG - the left upper pattern is really tough for a CRT !

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8205/mikeby002oa7.jpg

Oliver

That looks great! The bottom right is my problem area. BTW I should have the cross hatch pattern ready later tonight.

Mike

http://www.acdnow.com/misc/testpattern4.png

Download here! (http://www.acdnow.com/misc/TestPattern.zip)

Now has cross hatch pattern.

Can turn off colors.

Press "S" to enter the setup dialog.


Mike

That looks great! The bottom right is my problem area. BTW I should have the cross hatch pattern ready later tonight.

Mike

I'm sure Oliver meant the 1 pixel on 1 pixel off grid. Not the top left of the screen.

Ohh, it would be easier to resolve that if you could switch anything else around that grid off :)

That looks great! The bottom right is my problem area.

It would look better if I did not have my contrast to 90 which leads to a bit of blooming, but if you got a 12ft screen you gotta do what you ghotta do.
BTW: I meant the upper left pattern, not the upper left corner of the screen.
I have not checked but I am pretty sure that it does not look as good as the center pattern.

BTW I should have the cross hatch pattern ready later tonight.

More to play tonight, thanks !

Oliver

I'm sure Oliver meant the 1 pixel on 1 pixel off grid. Not the top left of the screen.

Ohh, it would be easier to resolve that if you could switch anything else around that grid off :)

Beat me to it :)

Yes that pattern is really very hard on a CRT, Joe Kane used a similar pattern to demonstrate how much better digital is than CRT - luckily most program material is not as demanding as that pattern.

I will check back tonight to see how it would look in a blend where one projector would only have to do a 1056 by 810 resolution for a scope picture - that should look pretty good.

Oliver

Beat me to it :)


I will check back tonight to see how it would look in a blend where one projector would only have to do a 1056 by 810 resolution for a scope picture - that should look pretty good.

Oliver

I already did in my case the problem is going to be visable scan lines. Might have to go higher just to get rid of them. It was just a rough setup though.

Mike

go with a smaller screen instead :)

The added punch should make up for the smaller size

go with a smaller screen instead :)

The added punch should make up for the smaller size

Very true this was on my 8 foot wide screen. I will need only about a 6' wide projection width for what I want to do. I would think it would have a lot more punch and the scan line will not be noticeable.

The next project I am working on is AR control for PowerDVD like YXY but with a less clunky user interface. This should allow me to simulate half of blend plus I can run 1920 by 800 for scope movies and stretch PowerDVD to remove the bars. The lower vertical res should improve my 1:1 pattern too.

Mike

I just added some hot keys to the test pattern.

R - Toggles Red On/Off
G - Toggles Green On/Off
B - Toggles Blue On/Off

Mike

Hi Mike,

I tried around with the pattern yesterday but I could not get it to aligned properly with the native NEC grid for point convergence.

For that it would be necessary to be able to adjust the distance between the grid lines for a given number of lines and to be able to move the center of the grid kind of like with static or raster on the NEC's.

The best results I got with a kind of overscanning where I used so many grid lines that there was always one very close to the center of all the convergence adjustment squares - that was a high number of lines :) The intensity slider is very welcome by the way in order to minimize wear while adjusting.

An alternative and/or refinement for yxy would be nice although I have to say with some shortcuts it works reasonably well. With 72 Hz you will profit a lot by going with a 1920 x 810 resolution (I recommend that one as it also handles 2.35:1 AR films pretty well) and you will also get a brighter full white.

Oliver

Hi Mike,

I tried around with the pattern yesterday but I could not get it to aligned properly with the native NEC grid for point convergence.

For that it would be necessary to be able to adjust the distance between the grid lines for a given number of lines and to be able to move the center of the grid kind of like with static or raster on the NEC's.

The best results I got with a kind of overscanning where I used so many grid lines that there was always one very close to the center of all the convergence adjustment squares - that was a high number of lines :) The intensity slider is very welcome by the way in order to minimize wear while adjusting.



Oliver


So you want to be able offset the grid pattern in different directions, up, down, left and right? This would not be difficult; the only thing is there would be uneven space between the border and the first line and last line.

Gino wanted to add circles too as an option that should not be a problem.

If you don't mind we might start posting suggestions in the HTPC section on Curt's site, this way everything is all together in one thread. :) I will also notify all of updates that way. Rather then buried in this NEC thread.

Mike

So you want to be able offset the grid pattern in different directions, up, down, left and right? This would not be difficult; the only thing is there would be uneven space between the border and the first line and last line.

Gino wanted to add circles too as an option that should not be a problem.

If you don't mind we might start posting suggestions in the HTPC section on Curt's site, this way everything is all together in one thread. :) I will also notify all of updates that way. Rather then buried in this NEC thread.

Mike

Moving over as I write :-)

Oliver