Like to finish off basement and just have a couple of questions so far:

1. We have a crack going around the entire perimenter of the basement (believe this is referred to as a French Drain)? Want to know when framing the walls along the outer walls, do you put the bottom of your framed wall (salt treated lumber) just inside the "french drain" or do you put it all the way against the wall which in essence I believe would cover the french drain defeating the purpose?

2. We plan on carpeting the entire basement so do most people build a sub-floor for the basement or just make sure to put down plastic or a protective layer before putting down carpet? If this is the case and you do not put down a subfloor, how would you run electric wires under your theater seating if they were electric recliners?

3. Is it necessary to put a "sealer" on your block wall before framing the wall? Or do most people just frame the wall, put the insulation in between the studs and then put plastic over top of the insulation? If you just put the insulation against the block wall and for some reason you get some moisture on the inside of your block, wouldn't this cause the insulation to get wet and start molding after a period of time?

Thanks for your experience and assistance....I hope I explained enough in detail.

Michael

Just thinking out loud. I've never come across a crack around the perimeter of the basement but I can imagine that it is for drainage and that the drain flows to a sump pump system, yes?

You might be a perfect candidate for the dricore sub-floor system which has the dimpled plastic membrane on the bottom and then a layer of wax coated OSB. The dimples create an air space and could go right over the perimeter cracks. You can frame directly on top of the the dricore panels. That would solve your drain access problem.

http://www.dricore.com/en/eIndex.aspx

or see delta floor for a similiar system.

I echo what Big says. In addition:

If you do not go with Dricore, DeltaFL (or System Platon, which is what I used), I would not lay plastic down on the concrete. Concrete needs to breath, and you could create more problems for down the road by trapping that moisture in.

For the walls, you could seal them, but again, the concrete needs to breath, and the sealer may or may not do a good job. The best method when insulating a concrete wall, is to make sure your stud wall is spaced out a bit (1-2 inches) so that when you insulate between the studs, there is an air gap between the concrete wall and the insulation. This will provide the space for the concrete to breath and dry out naturally.

Tom

Just thinking out loud. I've never come across a crack around the perimeter of the basement but I can imagine that it is for drainage and that the drain flows to a sump pump system, yes?

You might be a perfect candidate for the dricore sub-floor system which has the dimpled plastic membrane on the bottom and then a layer of wax coated OSB. The dimples create an air space and could go right over the perimeter cracks. You can frame directly on top of the the dricore panels. That would solve your drain access problem.

http://www.dricore.com/en/eIndex.aspx

or see delta floor for a similiar system.

Yes, I do have a sump pump...so I am assuming that is what the crack around the perimeter would be for. It's not that we have a lot of water problems, in fact the land drains very well...sump pump rarely comes on if at all! Just inquiring because I do not want to "mess" anything up when finishing off the space.

I looked at the link you sent, Dri-core...pretty neat idea...I still am a little confused due to the fact that even this going down over top of the crack around the perimeter...this would prevent water/moisture coming down on the block would from going into the crack and then eventually making it's way to the sump pump? I know this is worst case scenerio and I really can't see this happening but anything is possible. And once you finish it off your stuck...so just trying to get a few things cleared up....

Any ideas for questions 2 and 3 btw?

Thanks for all your help....(Also, I view your HT and bar area from time to time and it is very impressive)

You would leave a slight (1 inch) gap between the edge of the Dri-core and the walls, anything coming down the wall would make it's way to the crack. You would build your walls with the back edge of the wall studs 1 inch off the concrete which is pretty standard even without your drain system. That allows for variation in wall straightness and keeps the lumber off the concrete (code requirement). When you insulate your wall you leave a once inch gap behind the insulation as breathing space.

2) the Dri-core is your subfloor
3) Paint the concrete walls with dri-lok before starting construction.

i agree... i used dri lok on my walls.. three coats. my basement has never had moisture issues though. i have locked at the dricore stuff, and it is awesome... just out of the budget so i will be sealing the floors as well (probably with dri-lock again) before carpeting them. my walls are built about 1-3 inches from the concrete walls (that is because of how unstraight and unsquare they are) and will be insulated prior to sheet rocking.

you are correct about the french drain. it should run to your sump pit, but make sure you check it out first..


this is my basement so far, studs up. http://www.flickr.com/gp/39003429@N00/bxg9F7

Thanks for all the great responses from everyone...I really appreciate it...this has got to be one of the best places to exchange ideas with people in the A/V world!

Just wanted to comment...I forgot about the walkout door that I have in the basement, it does not have a step up...so I cannot put down anykind of subfloor which includes this dri-core stuff....It would not work out very good to have to step down to get out of the door....looks like I will be following the advice of the bethomas and just putting dri-lock stuff on the floor...looks like this is my only option before putting down carpet...hope this is ok?

as i found out, it is not the best choice... especially up here in the north, the dri core stuff makes the floor much warmer, but i have two sump pits (sump and sewege ejector, which as you can see by my pictures i changed both of them out to put proper ones in) and a rather low cieling. mixed in with the existing steps that would be awkward with a raised floor, not having the money in the budget and various other reasons i had to by pass this step. I feel certain that with the lack of moisture i have in my basement, driloc paint (i think i will use the same stuff i used on the walls) and decent padding and maybe even a plastic barrier under the carpet i should be ok. Heck, if my basement floods, the carpet will the least of my worries. It flooded once.. filled up the outside window.. but that was because at some point in time a 2x4 - 4 feet long - was shoved down the drain tile... looked like it had been there for 20 years. so far, no drainage issues anymore, other than the fact that my sump runs a lot.

if you have the money, use the dri-core. my buddy has it in his basement and it is awesome... but for your reason i can understand why you wouldn't.

The regular drylock is not for floors.

Before ruling out the dri-core option take a look at your door install.

If there is any room between the top of the door frame and the rough-in framing you might be able to raise the door. Basically remove molding, cut all the nails with a reciprocal saw, raise the door and re-nail the door frame. Place some water-proof board (PVC) on the bottom to raise the sill. Replace molding.

One day job max with two runs to HD for whatever.

The regular drylock is not for floors.

Before ruling out the dri-core option take a look at your door install.

If there is any room between the top of the door frame and the rough-in framing you might be able to raise the door. Basically remove molding, cut all the nails with a reciprocal saw, raise the door and re-nail the door frame. Place some water-proof board (PVC) on the bottom to raise the sill. Replace molding.

One day job max with two runs to HD for whatever.

Wow, that's great information....the exact situation is..I have a double glass patio door (both doors can open)...and if you are looking at the door and frame, there is about 4 inches I would say of salt treated lumber around it basically framing out the opening before you get to the block wall....(I hope I explained that good enough)...so I guess I probably would be able to take out the door frame and move it up....if I did then I would have a step down once you walk through the door to get outside which wouldn't be a bad thing...should have been a step down anyway...but builder kind of had a brain dump....(Since we have a double door we have a little poured area right outside the door with a drain in the middle to catch rain water and send it to the sump pump inside) this is before you go up the steps out of the basement....

Might not be a bad idea to raise the door up a little so that if the drain ever gets clogged water will reside in the poured area instead of wanting to come in under the door or any other crack it can find....

From your description it sounds like you will also have to move/rebuild the salt lumber rough-in.

If you aren't real handy you may to find/pay someone to help you. That's a big door and you will need a hand. Get someone with door installation experience and the right tools.

Big is right. you could always chop a little off the bottom of the door, just have to take care in sealing it at the bottom again.

What would you recommend for the floors then to seal them up?

From your description it sounds like you will also have to move/rebuild the salt lumber rough-in.

If you aren't real handy you may to find/pay someone to help you. That's a big door and you will need a hand. Get someone with door installation experience and the right tools.

Yeah, I think you have it pictured correctly...the salt treated rough in is against the block and then the door (I guess you would call it pre-hung?) kit or whatever goes inside the rough in area....so that leads me to believe I could either completely take out the rough in area or at least cut it down some and still keep my original door but would have to cut down the trim/casing or whatever you call it that goes around the door.

And, yes my father in law is a decent carpenter...so help should not be an issue. Hopefully.

How wide is the ("french drain") crack you speak of? I had a crack, probably 1/8th inch wide, and I sealed it with concrete sealer in hopes of battling radon. I hope that wasn't a bad move.

My thought is... if you have a sump pump and no water problems thus far, don't waste your time with a subfloor. Just get the 8# padding for more cushion. I sealed my walls with something similar to drylok, but I left my floor alone. For electricity, assuming you have 2 rows.. the back row can be placed infront of a wall and romex can be run under a riser to accomodate the front row.

How wide is the ("french drain") crack you speak of? I had a crack, probably 1/8th inch wide, and I sealed it with concrete sealer in hopes of battling radon. I hope that wasn't a bad move.

My thought is... if you have a sump pump and no water problems thus far, don't waste your time with a subfloor. Just get the 8# padding for more cushion. I sealed my walls with something similar to drylok, but I left my floor alone. For electricity, assuming you have 2 rows.. the back row can be placed infront of a wall and romex can be run under a riser to accomodate the front row.

The french drain crack is about 1 inch to 1 1/8 inch wide. No water problems as stated...good drainage land....

Thanks for the electric question....although I did not want to necessary install my back row HT seats against a wall or that close to a wall...wanted walking distance behind rear seats....that is why if I go the subfloor route then problem solved....wires can go under subfloor....if I just go concrete route with carpet on top...don't want some electric wires going across a walkway or the cheesy looking wires cover things so you don't trip over them....

Gotcha. So, it sounds like an expansive riser/partial subfloor (semantics) is your best bet.

Have fun... Post some pics when you have a chance.

I'm having a hard time picturing the problem with the sliding door and the dricore. If the dricore is going to raise the level of the floor above the bottom of the door, then you could take an area in front of the door and put down a sheet of vinyl on the concrete, say, the widtih of the door and may 18-24" deep, to make a sort of flat area in front of the door where you first step in. Then use a transition piece up to the new height of the floor.

A pic would be a great help.

Good luck,
Tom

I'm having a hard time picturing the problem with the sliding door and the dricore. If the dricore is going to raise the level of the floor above the bottom of the door, then you could take an area in front of the door and put down a sheet of vinyl on the concrete, say, the widtih of the door and may 18-24" deep, to make a sort of flat area in front of the door where you first step in. Then use a transition piece up to the new height of the floor.

A pic would be a great help.

Good luck,
Tom

I certainly understand what your describing..but a step up when you come in the door? I am not sure that would look to good...I guess it all depends on how high the step up would be which depends on the depth of the dri-core...I have not look at their website to get detail info surrounding the depth of the product...

I will post a pic....

Thanks,
Michael

The idea would be to step in on the flat area, and then on to the new subfloor + whatever finish (I think you said carpet). The dricore is less than 1".

Tom

I echo what Big says. In addition:

If you do not go with Dricore, DeltaFL (or System Platon, which is what I used), I would not lay plastic down on the concrete. Concrete needs to breath, and you could create more problems for down the road by trapping that moisture in.

For the walls, you could seal them, but again, the concrete needs to breath, and the sealer may or may not do a good job. The best method when insulating a concrete wall, is to make sure your stud wall is spaced out a bit (1-2 inches) so that when you insulate between the studs, there is an air gap between the concrete wall and the insulation. This will provide the space for the concrete to breath and dry out naturally.

Tom

The timing of this thread could not be more perfect. I am trying to figure out whether we need to seal the walls and floors of our basement prior to finishing (HT to be fully carpetted while outside play area to have hard wood flooring). We've had several GCs come in and most recommended dry-locking the walls and creating some kind of sub-floor. But the one that we are close to choosing says that since we do not have any moisture problems he doesn't feel the need to sell us something we do not need. Plus, he wants the floor and walls to be able to breathe as you mentioned.

But Big recommends sealing and he has given me nothing but the best advice so far. So what's the consensus out there, to seal or not to seal?

This is for tlogan6797 and whoever else wants to chime in if you have been following this thread......

(Pic of the basement door to give you a better idea of my decision....)

Thanks for yours and everyone else's input....

Michael

Nevermind about posting the pic...at least for right now...it gave me the following error message...

"The Dimension limits for this filetype are 1024 x 768. We were unable to resize your file so you will need to do so manually and upload it again. Your file is currently 3264 x 2448."

How do you resize a pic?

Thanks,
Michael

I use photoshop. You should be able to do it with almost any photo editing software. Open the image in the software, and look for a menu item that usually says something like, "image" and then there is usually another item in the dropdown to indicate "image size" or "resize" or something like that.

That's the manly way. The wimpy way would be to open your photo editing software and look in the help menu. But you have to give up your ManCard to do that. And besides, that wouldn't be the "do it yourself" way. Kind of the same as asking for directions.

Tom

Got it....and I didn't even have to give up my "Man Card".

OK, NOW I see. I have the same type of walkout, but I have a sliding door. It was the original and single pane. I would have had the same problem you have, except that I wanted to upgrade the windows and the door to double-pane. I did the windows and paid to have the door installed. The new door has a higher track for the sliders, so it's not an issue for me.

I think you're back to Big's advice to have the entire door raised, if there is room above. Hard to tell from pic. Looks like a tough problem.

And good job keeping the ManCard!

Good luck,
Tom

OK, NOW I see. I have the same type of walkout, but I have a sliding door. It was the original and single pane. I would have had the same problem you have, except that I wanted to upgrade the windows and the door to double-pane. I did the windows and paid to have the door installed. The new door has a higher track for the sliders, so it's not an issue for me.

I think you're back to Big's advice to have the entire door raised, if there is room above. Hard to tell from pic. Looks like a tough problem.

And good job keeping the ManCard!

Good luck,
Tom

Since you have the same sort of setup, other than the door type, any suggestions for the outside of the door as far as keeping the rain from coming straight down onto the door? Do you have a little roof or anything over the outside of your door? Mine is completly open and I am worried about it possibly leaking in the future...

Oh yeah, I think I will have the door raised and put in some sort of sub-floor in order to prevent any potential issues.

Thanks,
Michael

The timing of this thread could not be more perfect. I am trying to figure out whether we need to seal the walls and floors of our basement prior to finishing (HT to be fully carpetted while outside play area to have hard wood flooring). We've had several GCs come in and most recommended dry-locking the walls and creating some kind of sub-floor. But the one that we are close to choosing says that since we do not have any moisture problems he doesn't feel the need to sell us something we do not need. Plus, he wants the floor and walls to be able to breathe as you mentioned.

But Big recommends sealing and he has given me nothing but the best advice so far. So what's the consensus out there, to seal or not to seal?

Anyone care to chime in on the seal issue?

Big Says:

Here is my thinking. Concrete walls are porous. Even if you do not have any flowing water in the basement it is a source of migration of moisture and cause of humid air. Painting the wall with Dry-Loc masonry sealer is a simple weekend project. Instead of going to the Gym, get a roller intended for rough surfaces and put a pole on the end of the roller. Leave the pan on the floor and just keep moving around the perimeter of the basement pressing the paint into every crack and crevice. Do two coats. It helps to brush the wall with a broom first to get anything loose off the wall which impedes the painting process.

An old stiff brush is useful if you have a really rough wall to force the paint into every nook.

It will brighten up the room and is great to give a more finished look to space that will be left unfinished. (QueenDvd2)

Keep in mind it is just for the walls.

Should the treatment of the floor be different depending on what will go on top (i.e. hard wood floors in the play area, tile in bathroom, carpet in HT)?

When people say sub-floor does that simply mean throwing down some 2x4s and then applying flooring to that (kind of like a mini riser)? I also checked out the dri-core link from Bigs-is that what all sub-floors look like? Just how expensive does this dri-core go for? How does that differ from a mud floor or is that the same thing?

the dri-core is roughly $4-5 for a 2x2 square. gets kind of expensive. Still not sure what to seal the floors with. i dry-locked all of the walls though (three coats) - first one sucks, the next two are pretty quick. just spent the evening painting doors and installing the hardware. pocket doors are fun, you get to hack apart your brand new door.

The gap in your floor is most likely not tied to the sump pump unless you have an internal drain tile system which is usually recommended for areas with high hydrostatic pressure or sandy soils. I think (but I could be wrong) that your gap is the expansion joint between the toe plate and the basement slab. Walkout basements have a much deeper footing. I too have a gap maybe 3/4".

I'm having a hard time picturing the problem with the sliding door and the dricore. If the dricore is going to raise the level of the floor above the bottom of the door, then you could take an area in front of the door and put down a sheet of vinyl on the concrete, say, the widtih of the door and may 18-24" deep, to make a sort of flat area in front of the door where you first step in. Then use a transition piece up to the new height of the floor.

Dricore is maybe 7/8" and you could put down a ceramic pad the width of the door and maybe a few feet long and then get a threshhold to transition to the dricore and carpet.

I just finished my basement and I did use Dry Lock on the walls and floor, They make two different types of Dry Lock one for floors and one for walls[ 3 coats on both].
After that I put on a layer of Owens Corning 1 in. thick ridgid insulation on the masonary walls with liquid nails[ the insulation is all tongue and groove works great]. I do have a french drain so I also used liquid nails to put down the sole plates so I wouldn't crack the drain, I did leave about an inch between the wall and the sole plate,
Next I put the regular R-13 into the walls as well. As far as the rug I put down a pad made for concrete floors its some kind of open cell membrane foam I also used liquid nails to put down the tack strips [again not to crack the french drain] only on the out side walls and the rest regular concrete tack strips.
Well I hope some of this info helps you out, I do have constrcution pics but I am at work so I cant post any right now.
Best of luck with your project.

What about for the bathroom? Is the treatment still the same (i.e. dri-core or dry lock for floor) as the other areas? Will be a shower stall, toilet and sink.

For 1,500 s.f. I come up with just under $2,300. That does add up but if dri-core is the best I'm willing to do it. Any comments from those who have actually gone with the dri-core product and whether it's worth the considerable upcharge. Thanks.

yes, it does add up, but it is pretty nice. it just isn't in my budget. for the bathroom, i don't see why you couldn't use, and it would make the transition easy between there and the rest of the room easy. just remember you will have to lay out the bathroom door correctly, or cut some off of the bottom of the door to make it fit.

Since you have the same sort of setup, other than the door type, any suggestions for the outside of the door as far as keeping the rain from coming straight down onto the door? Do you have a little roof or anything over the outside of your door? Mine is completly open and I am worried about it possibly leaking in the future...

Well, not really. There is a dripcap above the door (like over a window) but that's it. Caulked up around the frame, inside AND outside. I don't really seem to have a problem with rain blowing into the door. My house seems to be parallel to the prevailing winds, so most of the time the rain is blowing across the stairway, not into it.

I do keep an eye on the drain outside the door, though. Not long after I put down the dricore and the new door was installed, we had a huge rain. Leaves had blocked the drain. On a whim, I went down to the basement and water was lapping at the bottom of the foor about to flood in. I managed to grab a shovel, open the door and reach over to clear the drain. Now, I just give a look everytime I'm down there. Haven't had any problems since, and we had about 1/2" of rain this past Saturday night. I do believe, though, that had the water started comming in, it would have run down the inside of the door, through the gap in the dricore between the door and the dricore and then over to the sump pit with no real damage.

Good luck,
Tom

Thanks for everyone that is replying to my questions....

Just anther quick one....someone quoted the dri-core as $4-$5 for a 2x2 square...so i assume just building a sub-floor out of salt treated 2x4's would be cheaper..might be the route i go not sure yet...anyway...if you were to do just a standard 2x4 sub-floor should you and what kind of insulation would you put down between your floor joists?

Thanks,
Michael

so i assume just building a sub-floor out of salt treated 2x4's would be cheaper

I'd be careful what you assume. There have been other threads about the cost comparisons. You probably need to search the archives. And do the math. By the time you get done with the PT sleepers, the insulation and the 4X8 tongue & groove sheets, the additional cost to dricore (or use the other one, Delta-FL I think?) is not as bad as it first seems. Dricore most likely WILL be more expensive. It will cost you SOMETHING to put in a subfloor. You need to decide if the INCREMENTAL cost to dricore is worth it.

Good luck,
Tom

I'd be careful what you assume. There have been other threads about the cost comparisons. You probably need to search the archives. And do the math. By the time you get done with the PT sleepers, the insulation and the 4X8 tongue & groove sheets, the additional cost to dricore (or use the other one, Delta-FL I think?) is not as bad as it first seems. Dricore most likely WILL be more expensive. It will cost you SOMETHING to put in a subfloor. You need to decide if the INCREMENTAL cost to dricore is worth it.

Good luck,
Tom

Good point...you tend to forget about adding the costs of insulation and plywood....whereas if you buy the dricore or similar product all that is included in the price becse it's an all in one solution...huh...definitely need to do some math...

Thanks,
Michael

I agree. dricore works great and has great reviews for folks that have used it. But yes, it can be quite expensive. My advise whatever you decide to use as a subfloor would be to look at cutting the door down vice raising the entire door frame up. It might involve raising or removing the header, depending on the space between top of the door jamb and the bottom of the header. Removing the top molding will tell you how much room you have to work with. My advise would be to cut the doors at the bottom as your first option.