Link (http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2008/03/10/new_dvd_format_says_it_offers_cheaper_choice_than_blu_ray/)

The article hints that a big studio is going to come out and back the format. I sure hope it's a bunch of hype.

What a great way to squeeze the BDA for more hundreds of millions! I think all studios should say they are thinking of supporting HD VMD!

Heh the unit needs to debut at 99 bucks if it wants a chance.

Here we go.

Honestly... what does it matter if one big studio decides to back the format? They aren't going to back it exclusively. HD-DVD had 2 big studios backing it exclusively and it still didn't win. No offense intended to a great format.

Honestly... what does it matter if one big studio decides to back the format? They aren't going to back it exclusively. HD-DVD had 2 big studios backing it exclusively and it still didn't win. No offense intended to a great format.

I don't think they intend to "win" but merely be a product in the middle. DVD can be the basic product, VMD is a cheap bare bones HD player, and Blu is a flagship HD player.

It won't make a peep at 199.00, and little software.

I don't think they intend to "win" but merely be a product in the middle. DVD can be the basic product, VMD is a cheap bare bones HD player, and Blu is a flagship HD player.

It is my understanding that HD VMD uses a red laser (cheaper) and that any PC DVD can be made compatible with a simple FW update.
That means that virtually every laptop today could be an HD VMD player...even the Sonys.

I don't think they intend to "win" but merely be a product in the middle. DVD can be the basic product, VMD is a cheap bare bones HD player, and Blu is a flagship HD player.

The thing is the HD market isn't big as it is. My personal opinion is that there's no room for a product in the middle.

It is my understanding that HD VMD uses a red laser (cheaper) and that any PC DVD can be made compatible with a simple FW update.
That means that virtually every laptop today could be an HD VMD player...even the Sonys.

There was a well known company using blu lasers selling their High Def players for $99-$129, with 2 exclusive studios and another major studio backing it.

They folded about a month ago. If these players by RandomBrand01 cost more than $100, the launch will be to the sound of crickets.

There was a well known company using blu lasers selling their High Def players for $99-$129, with 2 exclusive studios and another major studio backing it.

They folded about a month ago. If these players by RandomBrand01 cost more than $100, the launch will be to the sound of crickets.

There was a well known company using blu lasers selling their High Def players for $99-$129 and then fanbois came out of the woodwork claiming that they must be losing money because you can make and sell a
blu laser player for $129!!!

Now we have a company selling red laser players, and we all know that companies already sell red laser players for $19 and make money.

Also, if it is true that any PC DVD can be converted to this format with FW, then there are already 100s of millions potential players.

btw, I still think the format will fail, but it is a great way for studios to bilk the BDA out of a few hundred more millions!:D

Any reason why BD and HDDVD players couldn't be firmware updated to support HDVWD?

Any reason why BD and HDDVD players couldn't be firmware updated to support HDVWD?

I bet they could! They trick was that it had to be a player that could spin at something like 4x speed.

Wouldn't that be cool!:D

If I can get a player (hopefully not clunky and glitchy like my A3 though :( ) and 10 Freebies for $99 like I did with HD DVD I'll jump in. Of course there has to be exclusive content I want as well, which is what HD DVD had a the time. Hey it still would be an upgrade over DVD just like HD DVD is.

Experience True High Definition with the HD VMD Bundle Box, which includes the ML622s Multilayer Player bundled with 5 new HD VMD films inside. Be the first to experience the world's first ever three layer optical disc and player. Film titles include Cutting Room, Eighth Plague, Enigma With A Stigma, Mother Ghost, Refuge Of The Last Resort and The Naked Ape as you've never seen them before!

I cant wait to see those movies "As I have never seen them before"

Hahahahaha.... hahaha. I am sure they will sell millions!

The question as to how easy it is to make a 10 or 20 layer DVD-style disc is still open, is it not?

Link (http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2008/03/10/new_dvd_format_says_it_offers_cheaper_choice_than_blu_ray/)

The article hints that a big studio is going to come out and back the format. I sure hope it's a bunch of hype.

I don't think we read the same article

New Medium thinks its secret weapon is Michael Jay Solomon, one of Hollywood's best-known film distributors, who has been named its chairman.

Although he has yet to approach the studios, Solomon, a former president of Warner Bros. International Television, said his long tenure in the industry would help him succeed in licensing movies for HD VMD. "It's a combination of my good experiences and continual relationships," Solomon said in a telephone interview from Shanghai, where he was visiting with company engineers.

Would like to see a review of one of their players. Maybe Sound & Vision could do one to at least see what it has in relationship to HD DVD and BD.

The article hints that a big studio is going to come out and back the format. I sure hope it's a bunch of hype.

I didn't see a "hint" of anything in that article.

Heh the unit needs to debut at 99 bucks if it wants a chance.

That didn't work for HD DVD. R.I.P.


There was a well known company using blu lasers selling their High Def players for $99-$129, with 2 exclusive studios and another major studio backing it.They folded about a month ago.

:D

Movie prices would need to be like $10, and it would sell like hotcakes.

We already have one format that's not selling because movies are too expensive and many movies unavailable.

Laser colors make no difference in movie costs. Studios do.

I don't have time to type about this, though. My uncle called, and the whole family is heading over to his farm because a pig is attempting to jump off of the barn and fly with the help of a movie studio.

Experience True High Definition with the HD VMD Bundle Box, which includes the ML622s Multilayer Player bundled with 5 new HD VMD films inside. Be the first to experience the world's first ever three layer optical disc and player. Film titles include Cutting Room, Eighth Plague, Enigma With A Stigma, Mother Ghost, Refuge Of The Last Resort and The Naked Ape as you've never seen them before!

I cant wait to see those movies "As I have never seen them before"

Hahahahaha.... hahaha. I am sure they will sell millions!

Even if I watched those in Youtube quality it would be "as I've never seen them before" as I've never heard of them let alone seen them before, lol!

Movie prices would need to be like $10, and it would sell like hotcakes.

We already have one format that's not selling because movies are too expensive and many movies unavailable.

Laser colors make no difference in movie costs. Studios do.

I don't have time to type about this, though. My uncle called, and the whole family is heading over to his farm because a pig is attempting to jump off of the barn and fly with the help of a movie studio.

I actually think there are quite a lot of movies available. Anyone who thinks LOTR, Star Wars, Indy, and others should be here right now, are simply expecting too much.

The reason they are not selling is because we haven't reached a point in time where a majority of people are becoming dissatisfied with DVD and want something better. It's that simple. And it will be years down the line until we will see it that happens to a large enough amount of people or not.

Even if I watched those in Youtube quality it would be "as I've never seen them before" as I've never heard of them let alone seen them before, lol!

You have never seen enigma with stigma before... the long awaited sequel to enigma without a stigma? You are missing out! =)

The quote in my post was from amazon BTW.

These HD players are all going to be niche or failures - get use to it.

Good news for the Bollywood crowd.

Don't discard HD VMD as China and India are currently backing this format.

Heh the unit needs to debut at 99 bucks if it wants a chance.


That didn't work for HD DVD. R.I.P.
:D

Actually, it worked quite well selling tens of thousands of players in a single day.

If the pricepoint for HD-A2s and HD-A3s had stayed at that figure as opposed to jumping back to the $150-$200 range for the rest of the '07 holiday season then we might have seen an entirely different effect on the whole "war".

Basically, Sony would have had to offer Warner a much bigger bribe.

;)

Don't discard HD VMD as China and India are currently backing this format.

Too late. I already did.

Oops;)

"No talks have been held with the big-box retailers to carry the product."

Only part of the article that matters.

"No talks have been held with the big-box retailers to carry the product."

Only part of the article that matters.

They need to get some studios on board before they can do that. If not it will never get off the ground here but I hope they do because I believe competition is a good thing and limiting choices to the consumer is not.

7 different brands that all play the same disc is good competition.

7 different competing formats under the guise of "choice", that require the user to acquire/buy 7 different players is not good. It's a calamity. ...or if you prefer the studios to support 7 different formats (each with particular tooling requirements for manufacture) simultaneously and universally across all titles, don't you suspect that will have an impact on the cost of the end-product? The consumer will lose again on price, since they will most certainly be subsidizing the cost of running 7 different manufacturing processes to make that one title available in 7 different formats.

7 different brands that all play the same disc is good competition.

7 different competing formats under the guise of "choice", that require the user to acquire/buy 7 different players is not good. It's a calamity.

To me a choice is just more than one, I don't know how you define it? And it really doesn't matter what the choice is about,( Air travel, automobiles, food, drinks, clothing, real estate, and oh did I mention formats), as long as there is one. That is my position and it will not change!

So if VMD has something to offer, let the cosumer decide. It's like a restaurant where if the food is good, they will keep coming back, if it is not, they will close. It is really that simple.

It amazes me why people are afraid of competition unless they have something to hide. I say and will always advocate to Bring it ON!

They need to get some studios on board before they can do that. If not it will never get off the ground here but I hope they do because I believe competition is a good thing and limiting choices to the consumer is not.

If thats the case... then you should go ahead and order one from amazon. Let me know if "Refuge of Last resort" is "Awesome" in High Definition.

If thats the case... then you should go ahead and order one from amazon. Let me know if "Refuge of Last resort" is "Awesome" in High Definition.

:confused:

:confused:

If you want there to be competition, then you need to buy into HD-VMD.

If you dont buy, then who will.

If you want there to be competition, then you need to buy into HD-VMD.

If you dont buy, then who will.

I think they need some major US studios to be competitive, don't you. That was what I was saying in my previous post but somehow you misconstrued my statement to come to this conclusion.

And who is to say that is the format I would buy into? I never stated that. But I will state that with competition it will keep the other party involved at the top of their game, without it let me just quote the once famous Borat," not so much". ;)

I think they need some major US studios to be competitive, don't you. That was what I was saying in my previous post but somehow you misconstrued my statement to come to this conclusion.

And who is to say that is the format I would buy into? I never stated that. But I will state that with competition it will keep the other party involved at the top of their game, without it let me just quote the once famous Borat," not so much". ;)

You want there to be competition... but you wont buy. If customers pass on HD-VMD, havent they already decided?

Wasnt this supposted to be release before christmas at Radioshack and Costco?

To me a choice is just more than one, I don't know how you define it?

You are failing to distinguish how one kind of "choice" can lead to good things vs. another kind leading to bad things, and then making a blanket statement that all kinds of "choice" must lead to good things. We all know such a claim is not true. I just gave you an example, as well.

The kind of choice that leads to good things pertains particularly to the context of "many brands, one format" scenario. This is how most people recognize the aspect and its benefits.

The kind of choice you are proposing (any given number of formats in perpetual contention), otoh, is not good. The consumer then becomes simply fodder on a shooting range (with all of the big companies aiming their respective format guns), though some may reason that they are actually benefiting from "choosing" which bullet to get hit with. :rolleyes:

At any rate, no need to belabor the lack of your kind of "choice" in the hdm arena. You will have a bright future of exactly that kind of choice in the upcoming digital download/vod wars between umpteen different providers, umpteen different set-top boxes amongst umpteen different service localities/regions and zero cross-compatibility. I'm sure you will be in utter heaven. Good luck with that!...it will be the ultimate just dessert, I anticipate.

You want there to be competition... but you wont buy. If customers pass on HD-VMD, havent they already decided?

Wasnt this supposted to be release before christmas at Radioshack and Costco?

The point is if they don't have major US studio support, why would anyone buy it? But I think you know that but still harp on the same questions. If you read the article they are trying to do just that so there is nothing for the consumer to decide yet. If they do , then there will be a choice, if they don't it's all in vain. Theres nothing to debate. The answer is in front of your eyes.

You are failing to distinguish how one kind of "choice" can lead to good things vs. another kind leading to bad things, and then making a blanket statement that all kinds of "choice" must lead to good things. We all know such a claim is not true. I just gave you an example, as well.

The kind of choice that leads to good things pertains particularly to the context of "many brands, one format" scenario. This is how most people recognize the aspect and its benefits.

The kind of choice you are proposing (any given number of formats in perpetual contention), otoh, is not good. The consumer then becomes simply fodder on a shooting range (with all of the big companies aiming their respective format guns), though some may reason that they are actually benefiting from "choosing" which bullet to get hit with. :rolleyes:

At any rate, no need to belabor the lack of your kind of "choice" in the hdm arena. You will have a bright future of exactly that kind of choice in the upcoming digital download/vod wars between umpteen different providers, umpteen different set-top boxes amongst umpteen different service localities/regions and zero cross-compatibility. I'm sure you will be in utter heaven. Good luck with that!...it will be the ultimate just dessert, I anticipate.

Thank you for telling me what choices are good for me. :rolleyes: I find it funny when people advocate for choice when it comes to HDM, they get shouted down as if you are asking for the sacrafice of one of their children.
Simply amazing!

Thank you for telling me what choices are good for me. :rolleyes: I find it funny when people advocate for choice when it comes to HDM, they get shouted down as if you are asking for the sacrafice of one of their children.
Simply amazing!

Choices of Different Formats just guarantee that the customers of the losing side gets screwed. Too bad for the 700K buyers of HDDVD.

...and now Lodef conceives a scenario that potentially can turn out to be many times more precarious than that, and wonders why there might be others to question sanity. ;) If 7 formats go to war under the guise of "customer choice" and 1 comes out the victor, that leaves 6/7 ways the consumer can get screwed vs. just 1/2 (circa, the format war we just got through witnessing). If no victor appears, then the consumer simply gets screwed 7 different ways, forever. Talk about a gauntlet! ;)

Choices of Different Formats just guarantee that the customers of the losing side gets screwed. Too bad for the 700K buyers of HDDVD.

There doesn't always have to be a losing side and some HD DVD owners might not feel they got screwed at all. But thats ok because they knew what they were getting into, at least thats what people like you were saying and now all of a sudden you feel bad for them. Priceless!

...and now Lodef conceives a scenario that potentially can turn out to be many times more precarious than that, and wonders why there might be others to question sanity. ;) If 7 formats go to war under the guise of "customer choice" and 1 comes out the victor, that leaves 6/7 ways the consumer can get screwed vs. just 1/2 (circa, the format war we just got through witnessing). If no victor appears, then the consumer simply gets screwed 7 different ways, forever. Talk about a gauntlet! ;)

Still on that lucky #7 crusade, are we. LOL

So go buy yourself a vmd. You know what you are getting into, and you will not feel the screwing, right? Post back with an update, when you are a new owner... You'll then be 0 for 2, and all the wiser than the rest of us, right? Right! :eek:

Then when they are liquidating remaining stock, scoop up that 2nd and 3rd player for the 2nd bedroom and kid's room...better get a 4th just for on-the-fly replacement (and the price is irresistible). Surely, the studios will respond to that kind of committment, right? Buy them...and they will come...DO IT! :lol: In the meantime, you can entertain yourself with some svelte Bollywood productions! It's region freeeeeeeee! How can you lose?!

Perhaps, tivoDealer has a deal just for you? Ask'em!

Here is a post to the Mods, some seem to want to get this thread closed as you can see because they believe competition is the enemy. Since this is directly related to HDM, I hope you choose to keep it open for further discussion despite the intentions by some others in this forum to do otherwise.

thank you.

There was a well known company using blu lasers selling their High Def players for $99-$129 and then fanbois came out of the woodwork claiming that they must be losing money because you can make and sell a
blu laser player for $129!!!

Now we have a company selling red laser players, and we all know that companies already sell red laser players for $19 and make money.

Also, if it is true that any PC DVD can be converted to this format with FW, then there are already 100s of millions potential players.

btw, I still think the format will fail, but it is a great way for studios to bilk the BDA out of a few hundred more millions!:D

OR maybe the BDA will say FU and fold like another recent HD company did so we will be left with no true HD format. GREAT IDEA....RIGHT....

There doesn't always have to be a losing side and some HD DVD owners might not feel they got screwed at all. But thats ok because they knew what they were getting into, at least thats what people like you were saying and now all of a sudden you feel bad for them. Priceless!

Many got in WITHOUT knowing what they were getting into due to the heavily subsided player prices. They though they were getting a great deal on an HD player (and they WERE), but didn’t have all the facts before jumping in. I find it hard to hold that group fully responsible since they were lured by price and were not true early adopters that knew their format might go away.

Many got in WITHOUT knowing what they were getting into due to the heavily subsided player prices. They though they were getting a great deal on an HD player (and they WERE), but didn’t have all the facts before jumping in. I find it hard to hold that group fully responsible since they were lured by price and were not true early adopters that knew their format might go away.

Yes, I agree and Toshiba is fully to blame for that. Thats why theres a civil lawsuit being filed. There was a thread on this but it was closed.

Toshiba is fully to blame?! I thought they were giving you "choice". Then when you exercise that "choice", somebody else is to blame for it turning out to be the wrong choice?

How can it be that "choice" is always good, Toshiba offers you "choice", but then Toshiba is bad for doing this? Don't the players still work? Don't the discs still play? Can you not still upscale all existing dvd's on that same player? So nobody "lost", right? If nobody "lost", then how is Toshiba bad for offering you "choice"? How much claim to a lawsuit do you really have if your buy-in was a mere $129 or less, on a player that is, otherwise, still fully functional and fully "standards compliant" for its intended format?

This logic is getting me dizzy!

Lodef, since you are advocating choice. Would mind a different cd formats be around for audio? IE, you'd have to buy a separate CD player to play your Pink Floyd, then buy another for Zeppelin CD's and yet another for another label or big name artist?

That's no different than people having to buy different players and formats to play all the movies released. Having to buy a different player to listen to Floyd or whatever would be utterly stupid and the movie situation is no different. That's what people are trying to tell you. You can't compare it to airlines or whatever else.

Toshiba is fully to blame?! I thought they were giving you "choice". Then when you exercise that "choice", somebody else is to blame for it turning out to be the wrong choice?

How can it be that "choice" is always good, Toshiba offers you "choice", but then Toshiba is bad for doing this? Don't the players still work? Don't the discs still play? Can you not still upscale all existing dvd's on that same player? So nobody "lost", right? If nobody "lost", then how is Toshiba bad for offering you "choice"? How much claim to a lawsuit do you really have if your buy-in was a mere $129 or less, on a player that is, otherwise, still fully functional and fully "standards compliant" for its intended format?

This logic is getting me dizzy!

Nice spin. I don't have a problem because I bought in early. But some believe Tosh decided to pull the plug long before their public announcement and in that time period some might have a gripe if deception was used. Let the court system iron it out. Choice is good if everything is upfront with the parties involved unlike the previous war with all the back room dealings and payoffs which should be investigated on it's own. Lets hope we never go down that road again because that is a case where choice was denied and taking out of the consumers hand whether you agree with it or not.

What difference is it if you buy in early or late? You still have the same number of discs that can be bought and will play on the player. The player is still functional in an identical manner between early and late buyers. If you do not perceive anything was "lost", then there is no reason for late buyers to perceive anything was "lost". You have the exact same capabilities in your possession. Was there some implied guarantee of longevity for later buyers? Was the $99 and $129 close-out pricing for the very same model that debuted at $300 not a strong enough clue for these late buyers?

Additionally, are you absolutely certain that every single successful CE format that has come through town over the past 3+ decades, came through with zero back room dealings and/or payoffs? Have you researched this? How do you even begin to confirm this? Maybe that is precisely the way it has happened every single time? So are you privy to such insider knowledge, or is this all simply a pet theory of your own?

I've already given you an example that demonstrates that the kind of "choice" that you seek can result in a situation that is even more undesirable. That is absolutely true, whether you agree with it or not.

The choice of multiple brands in a single format is absolutely desirable (this is the kind of "choice" that is well established and recognized among consumers). The choice of multiple formats in perpetual contention is a minefield.

Yes, I agree and Toshiba is fully to blame for that. Thats why theres a civil lawsuit being filed. There was a thread on this but it was closed.

Toshiba gave you what you wanted... a choice... and now they deserve to be sued for it?

Plenty of people, IE Me, bought in November thinking that HD-DVD would at least be supported for another year or so. I guarantee, there are a lot of people who feel screwed.

Toshiba was on their 3rd Generation HD-DVD players. People who bought last christmas.... Not exactly early adopters. They probably watched the wal mart ads and now feel like they got suckered.

Its time for you to buy an HD-VMD, and then you can start your own 1 man class action against NME.

btw, I still think the format will fail, but it is a great way for studios to bilk the BDA out of a few hundred more millions!:D

Could you kindly explain to us in a rational manner how forcing the BDA to spend millions more to keep studios from backing a technologically inferior format is something to smile about? How is this a good thing? Toshiba's already called it quits, so it's not like this is going to resurrect HD-DVD. As motivations go, other than petty spite and perhaps being an HD-DVD owner who's a sore loser, I got nothing.

Even if I watched those in Youtube quality it would be "as I've never seen them before" as I've never heard of them let alone seen them before, lol!

What, you've never seen Naked Ape? You don't know what you're missing! :D

What difference is it if you buy in early or late? You still have the same number of discs that can be bought and will play on the player. The player is still functional in an identical manner between early and late buyers. If you do not perceive anything was "lost", then there is no reason for late buyers to perceive anything was "lost". You have the exact same capabilities in your possession. Was there some implied guarantee of longevity for later buyers? Was the $99 and $129 close-out pricing for the very same model that debuted at $300 not a strong enough clue for these late buyers?

Additionally, are you absolutely certain that every single successful CE format that has come through town over the past 3+ decades, came through with zero back room dealings and/or payoffs? Have you researched this? How do you even begin to confirm this? Maybe that is precisely the way it has happened every single time? So are you privy to such insider knowledge, or is this all simply a pet theory of your own?

I've already given you an example that demonstrates that the kind of "choice" that you seek can result in a situation that is even more undesirable. That is absolutely true, whether you agree with it or not.

The choice of multiple brands in a single format is absolutely desirable (this is the kind of "choice" that is well established and recognized among consumers). The choice of multiple formats in perpetual contention is a minefield.

Yes you are right for one thing, I do not agree! ;)

You may not agree, but your points are certainly debunked.

Toshiba gave you what you wanted... a choice... and now they deserve to be sued for it?

Plenty of people, IE Me, bought in November thinking that HD-DVD would at least be supported for another year or so. I guarantee, there are a lot of people who feel screwed.

Toshiba was on their 3rd Generation HD-DVD players. People who bought last christmas.... Not exactly early adopters. They probably watched the wal mart ads and now feel like they got suckered.

Its time for you to buy an HD-VMD, and then you can start your own 1 man class action against NME.

Don't know where your going with this, but your all over the place. If you feel you got screwed, then you should join the lawsuit. I have no problem with that and I hope you win.

On your second point, what does this have in relation to VMD? Nothing.
And for what reason would I buy a VMD player right now, there isn't one!

Why do you keep trying to tell me what to do?

Is it because I don't have a blu ray player that I should not be allowed to discuss other matters in relation to HDM because thats the vibe you seem to be sending.

I hope that is not the case but with your responses it's seems to be the only conclusion I can come to.

You may not agree, but your points are certainly debunked.

Again I full heartily disagree! :D

Don't know where your going with this, but your all over the place. If you feel you got screwed, then you should join the lawsuit. I have no problem with that and I hope you win.

On your second point, what does this have in relation to VMD? Nothing.
And for what reason would I buy a VMD player right now, there isn't one!

Why do you keep trying to tell me what to do?

Is it because I don't have a blu ray player that I should not be allowed to discuss other matters in relation to HDM because thats the vibe you seem to be sending.

I hope that is not the case but with your responses it's seems to be the only conclusion I can come to.

I am saying since you are such a big proponent of HD-VMD, you should want to buy one. Why talk up HD VMD, if there is no reason for you to buy one?

I am saying since you are such a big proponent of HD-VMD, you should want to buy one. Why talk up HD VMD, if there is no reason for you to buy one?

Thats where your Wrong! I am a big proponent of competition. I never even stated I would buy HD-VMD, your the one thats keeps saying it. I accept your apology! ;)

Maybe you should buy into it, and buy into it BIG? That would indicate a market for such a product, which will in turn stimulate competition in that product genre, and ultimately create more "choices" for the consumer?

So are you really a big proponent of competition or just a proponent when it's somebody else's dime at risk? Why don't you broker some studio deals and retailer endcap displays for vmd, as well? If you will not be the optimist for the format, who else should be?...why should anyone else be? If no studios or retailers bite, will you accuse of some backroom deal or payoff?

Link (http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2008/03/10/new_dvd_format_says_it_offers_cheaper_choice_than_blu_ray/)

The article hints that a big studio is going to come out and back the format. I sure hope it's a bunch of hype.
This is quite misleading. There is absolutely nothing in that article that hints anything about a major studio backing the format.
I didn't see a "hint" of anything in that article.
There is a good reason for that...

I, for one, cannot see HD-VMD going anywhere, why should consumers who already got smoked by Toshiba pulling out, be sacrificial lambs to another format?, even though it may be cheaper....... I have been on the HD bandwagon from day one, I felt the competition with BD was a good thing to make better products...unfortunately, the HD promotion group did very little to promote the flexibility and benefits of the format, and it died....As for competition, there IS some between BD and DVD, and it will be a tougher battle IMO.

So, I got a Sammy 5000 combo player, I now have the best of all worlds, super upscaling via Reon chipset, HD( hittin' the firesales, baby!!!!) and BD playback( when BD software gets to a point in price where I want to buy in)....

Maybe you should buy into it, and buy into it BIG? That would indicate a market for such a product, which will in turn stimulate competition in that product genre, and ultimately create more "choices" for the consumer?

So are you really a big proponent of competition or just a proponent when it's somebody else's dime at risk? Why don't you broker some studio deals and retailer endcap displays for vmd, as well? If you will not be the optimist for the format, who else should be?...why should anyone else be? If no studios or retailers bite, will you accuse of some backroom deal or payoff?

Talk about taking a discussion to another place, Yikes!:eek: I'm afraid to see what your going to post next. Maybe you should call it a night? The doctors do say a good night sleep always refreshens the mind, sometimes I even use it myself. :)

This HD VMD will not be able to find any chance in U.S. or Japan.. US/Japan are now occupied and become territory of Blu-ray and Sony :). EU is not much different. But HD VMD may be able to find some chance in remaining less-affluent part of the world countries, like China or Eastern Europe or South/Middle Asia.

If Chinese gov't would cherish HD-VMD as official HD disc format that will be supported in China, it could find large enough market and survive. China needs HD alternative of failed EVD effort. Blu-ray or HD-DVD are just too expensive for most Chinese people, even for relatively rich Chinese people. Sony and Toshiba are refusing to license their blue laser based technology to China so China has no other option than using red laser based HD disc technology.

In exchange of choosing HD-VMD as official HD disc standard, Chinese gov't will request HD-VMD to lower licensing royalty drastically (as low as that of DVD). That is not so bad deal for HD VMD which can not survive in US/Japan/EU any way.

Thats where your Wrong! I am a big proponent of competition. I never even stated I would buy HD-VMD, your the one thats keeps saying it. I accept your apology! ;)

If you want competition, then you should buy into it. If no one buys into the competition.... then its not much of a competition is it?

If you are such a proponent of competition and believe that HD-VMD is it... then buy it. If you dont beleive that HD-VMD is good, then why hype it up as competition?

Seems like he is more about "hot air" than real conviction, eh? ;)

If you want competition, then you should buy into it. If no one buys into the competition.... then its not much of a competition is it?

If you are such a proponent of competition and believe that HD-VMD is it... then buy it. If you dont beleive that HD-VMD is good, then why hype it up as competition?
I think it is perfectly acceptable for him to wish that competion to exist. He doesn't need to jump in and buy the product right now. He can have an intention to buy it in the future, or think that it drives the prices down for the other format. I may want to buy an electric car one day so I am supportive of more companies making them. But I am not ready to buy one just yet. As long as there are others who would buy it, it is cool to wish it be there in my book. :)

Me? I think the product is as dead as it can be for multiple reasons. So the wish above is not going to come through no matter what.

...and that is really the key distinction being identified here- being "supportive". Is it support via actual purchases or figurative support via "hot air". A lot of talk here seems dominated by the latter rather than the former. While the latter isn't necessarily bad, per se, it is certainly cheap and backed with little real conviction.

I mean, really- does it actually elevate oneself to declare they are a big proponent of competition and "choice", but only in a figurative sense? Is that to imply that others here are not supportive of the very same things? If the bar is merely "hot air", then I think it is safe to say we ALL are supportive of a competitive market and "choice" (with considerable discrepancy of what a competitive market and what "choice" in a good way really looks like, evidently).

I don't think anyone here has been arguing for "no competition" and "less choice". Hence, there is no real need to declare it explicitly, as if to imply a greater level of conviction than the norm. "Hot air" is "hot air", for the most part, until you start committing some real dollars toward the venture. That seems to be where Lodef lost his way, imo.

The real dicey part comes when you start to examine why they are in everlasting search for more "competition" and "choices". Is it because they are really interested in competition and choices as a means to motivate better product and pricing, or is it just a means to throw yet another obstacle at the incumbent (to which they have developed an irrational, mortal hatred) which has already demonstrated its worth and mettle, but inherently must not be allowed to prevail? Therein is exposed the seedy agendas of certain personas that frequent these forums. Naturally, they'll claim the former, but deep down inside it is clearly motivated by the latter.

HD VMD is not going anywhere. It will never provide competition to Blu-ray.

SD DVD and the forth coming DVD 2.0 that Panasonic is pushing are the real competition.

HD VMD is not going anywhere. It will never provide competition to Blu-ray.

SD DVD and the forth coming DVD 2.0 that Panasonic is pushing are the real competition.

Ahhhh . . .

We have already proven that this DVD 2.0 does not exist. It was nothing more than a "wish list" from some member on another forum. The thread discussing this now resides in the DVD Players Forum

HD-VMD? How can a format survive without the backing of Hollywood? Answer - it can't.

btw, I still think the format will fail, but it is a great way for studios to bilk the BDA out of a few hundred more millions!

Could you kindly explain to us in a rational manner how forcing the BDA to spend millions more to keep studios from backing a technologically inferior format is something to smile about? How is this a good thing? Toshiba's already called it quits, so it's not like this is going to resurrect HD-DVD. As motivations go, other than petty spite and perhaps being an HD-DVD owner who's a sore loser, I got nothing.

Not sure I understand the logic behind either post. Nobody forced the BDA and Sony to payoff hundreds of millions of dollars to studios -- that was their decision! They found it necessary to erase a very good and financially viable format in HD DVD which was not going away otherwise. They were staring at an upcoming year that would have likely seen HD DVD increase their marketshare with affordable, fully functional players, and more exclusive studio support than ever before (including huge exclusive hits like Ironman, Cloverfield, Incredible Hulk, possibly Indy). Because of these reasons, they threw oodles of money at the studios. Buying the victory was their idea. Let's not pretend for a moment that the BDA was a victim of anything but their own greed.

As for VOD, it already exists in many guises and is a profitable business. Personally, I'll never use it, as I prefer a physical format like Blu-Ray or HD DVD. But why fear other options for people who prefer that method? There was room for 2 formats in HD DVD & BD, and there is certainly room for a download option for folks that want that.

Again, VOD is profitable today -- doubtful Blu-Ray has turned a profit yet for any studio involved. After all the BOGO give-aways last year, the marketing, and the shallow sales, surely there's little to no profit realized yet. Sony has lost billions on Blu-Ray to this point, no doubt about that. And they still need to build an enormous infrastructure of disc stamping plants that will cost even more billions.

Ahhhh . . .

We have already proven that this DVD 2.0 does not exist. It was nothing more than a "wish list" from some member on another forum. The thread discussing this now resides in the DVD Players Forum

HD-VMD? How can a format survive without the backing of Hollywood? Answer - it can't.

You are correct Lee, and I said that in my post numerous times but somehow it keeps getting overlooked.

Now I'm accused of hot air because I won't buy into it even though I explained why I wouldn't and that includes the quote above, LOL

They also keep avoiding the post where I said competition will keep the top dog on it's toes as amirm pointed out which is my whole reasoning behind it but they rather put words in my mouth on what I really think!

I think it's obvious they can not handle this prospect of competition even though they would probably be a beneficiary of it in some form or another.

When people become stubborn and have their minds made up I think they lose sight of all other contributing factors that would not only get them what they want but would make it even better and I believe we have a case of that here.

HD VMD should have arrived the same time the T2 WMV got out. Thats were they had their window...

They could have gotten themself entrenched by releasing 1440*1080P movies on DVD9 using modern codecs. They would have had years of headstart.

HD-VMD will fail because they don't have the deep pockets to pay off major studios and large retailers. The technology for using red lasers for HD on discs was there all along, but the large CE companies (Sony, Panasonic, Philips) could not get royalties from it (or from HD-DVD), so they had to come up with a new, expensive, and difficult to implement technology (blu lasers) in order to get those royalties, so they did, and now we are stuck with Blu-Ray techology. We live in the age of neo-fascism, when large international corporations get the power and profits they want by political influence and bribery, and those who try to succeed the old-fashion way (hard work and competition) are slapped down like flies. Now that they have won the "war" Sony, et al, is not about to let these little guys steal any of their plunder. These guys will feel the wrath of the BDA soon enough.

You are correct Lee, and I said that in my post numerous times but somehow it keeps getting overlooked.

Now I'm accused of hot air because I won't buy into it even though I explained why I wouldn't and that includes the quote above, LOL

They also keep avoiding the post where I said competition will keep the top dog on it's toes as amirm pointed out which is my whole reasoning behind it but they rather put words in my mouth on what I really think!

I think it's obvious they can not handle this prospect of competition even though they would probably be a beneficiary of it in some form or another.

When people become stubborn and have their minds made up I think they lose sight of all other contributing factors that would not only get them what they want but would make it even better and I believe we have a case of that here.


The point is.... Competition already exists. Samsung, Panasonic, Sharp, Philips, Sony all make Blu Ray players. Thats a lot of different companies.

What Amirm is talking about with Electric cars is not used in the correct context.

Its good that more companies make electric cars, as long as you can fill up everywhere. Thats similar to Blu Ray, there are a lot of companies that make BD players.

However, imagine that Petrol was banned or ran out or whatever. And 2 new fuel formats came out. Hydrogen Cell and Uncompressed natural gas. Some states support 1, some the other.

Well what happens? You have to worry about getting from A-B without being able to fill up everywhere. Thats similar to HD DVD and BD. You couldnt get your "Fill up" of HD movies unless you had both formats.

Then what happens if Hydrogen Cells only get 33% of the business, and they decide they cannot keep going? What happens? 33% of the customers got screwed.

Link (http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2008/03/10/new_dvd_format_says_it_offers_cheaper_choice_than_blu_ray/)

The article hints that a big studio is going to come out and back the format. I sure hope it's a bunch of hype.
Given the decisive manner in which the studios shut down HD DVD, it is EXTREMELY unlikly that they will move to re-fracture the next-gen market all over again.

YMMV, etc

Given the decisive manner in which the studios shut down HD DVD, it is EXTREMELY unlikly that they will move to re-fracture the next-gen market all over again.

YMMV, etc

If you read the article, it doesn't mention one thing about a studio moving. I don't know where the OP pulled that information out of, but I hae a pretty good idea.:D (his arse)

The point is.... Competition already exists. Samsung, Panasonic, Sharp, Philips, Sony all make Blu Ray players. Thats a lot of different companies.

What Amirm is talking about with Electric cars is not used in the correct context.

Its good that more companies make electric cars, as long as you can fill up everywhere. Thats similar to Blu Ray, there are a lot of companies that make BD players.

However, imagine that Petrol was banned or ran out or whatever. And 2 new fuel formats came out. Hydrogen Cell and Uncompressed natural gas. Some states support 1, some the other.

Well what happens? You have to worry about getting from A-B without being able to fill up everywhere. Thats similar to HD DVD and BD. You couldnt get your "Fill up" of HD movies unless you had both formats.

Then what happens if Hydrogen Cells only get 33% of the business, and they decide they cannot keep going? What happens? 33% of the customers got screwed.

Apple to oranges! We are talking about Hi Def players which is considered a luxury item.

Some people depend on automobiles to support their livlyhood and could not make it without one. The same can not be said of HD players, I know it's hard to believe but some people can survive without ever owning one.

You want to talk about being screwed, how bout the people who had their pensions and whole life earnings stolen from them with fiasco's like Enron and Tyco.

When comparing stuff you have to put things in perpective, competition between formats will not have the same dire effect on everyday peoples lives like you make it out to be.

A war just ended but I don't think anyone went as far to mortgage their home or blow their life savings for the opportunity of owning one of the formats, do you?

So is competition good for people who really care about these things such as HDM, if you read any of my post I think you know the answer by now.

One final question, is blu ray better or worse now for having to compete with HD DVD, Yes or No?

Apple to oranges! We are talking about Hi Def players which is considered a luxury item.

An electric (hybrid) auto is more expensive than a standard emission vehicle. So it is a luxury item.

An electric (hybrid) auto is more expensive than a standard emission vehicle. So it is a luxury item.

Nice try!

Nice try!

your point?????

your point?????

Um, I think I was talking about the use of automobiles but I bet you know that. Just needed to stir the pot a little, did ya!

tqlla's example illustrates the point quite effectively.

Doesn't matter if it is a car or a videoplayer- the example demonstrates the dynamics of the scenario.

A war just ended but I don't think anyone went as far to mortgage their home or blow their life savings for the opportunity of owning one of the formats, do you?

I guess that puts the perspective on how "screwed" a customer is when they "choose" the format that ends up folding, right? If the loss is minor in the big picture of life, then they didn't really get "screwed", did they?

Hence, any potential lawsuit they may aim at Toshiba must surely be frivolous. Hence, anybody here who is advocating for said class action suit must be blowing some serious "hot air". How's that for apples-to-apples?

I guess that puts the perspective on how "screwed" a customer is when they "choose" the format that ends up folding, right? If the loss is minor in the big picture of life, then they didn't really get "screwed", did they?

Hence, any potential lawsuit they may aim at Toshiba must surely be frivolous. Hence, anybody here who is advocating for said class action suit must be blowing some serious "hot air". How's that for apples-to-apples?

Owning a HD player that lost a format war can be overcome, having an automobile that doesn't run for some can not.

Sorry I only speak for myself, not what others do! ;)

While your here Mr Hanky do want to try and answer my question?

Your question is irrelevant to the topic. So are your additional points for "owners getting screwed", "backroom deals and payoffs", "class action suits for Toshiba", "investigations of industry malfeasance for BDA", and most recently- "cars and videoplayers are inherently incomparable". We cannot very well move on to additional off-topic points from you, until you acknowledge that your current off-topic points have been reconciled (debunked). It needs to "get in line", so to speak.

It is duly noted that hd ownership has small repercussions relative to car ownership. However, the dynamics of incompatible format contention is perfectly illustrated. It is only with the car example that the ramifications seem obvious to you. That would seem to be your prime motivation for dismissing its relevance to the videoplayer arena (the checkmate is in full view of yourself and everyone following this discussion, but you seem willfully noncompliant to acknowledge it). That is what we are trying to get you to understand/acknowledge.

It would be foolish to disregard that there are common phenomenons that exist in all facets of society. The mechanism is generally the same, and it is only the scale that is different. That the scale is different does not automatically preclude a comparison.

I've created a new format I call virtual HD. Basically what it is, is an SD video of me watching HD movies. I hope to get studio support soon...

Um, I think I was talking about the use of automobiles but I bet you know that. Just needed to stir the pot a little, did ya!

You stated that an HDM player is a luxury item and stated an "electric" car isn't a luxury item but necessary.

I was stating that an "electric/hybrid" IS a luxury item. No more no less.

as for stirring the pot, you tend to do that quite a bit yourself....

I've created a new format I call virtual HD. Basically what it is, is an SD video of me watching HD movies. I hope to get studio support soon...

Do you think it can compete with blu ray! :D

You stated that an HDM player is a luxury item and stated an "electric" car isn't a luxury item but necessary.

I was stating that an "electric/hybrid" IS a luxury item. No more no less.

as for stirring the pot, you tend to do that quite a bit yourself....

How bout you phansson, you want to try and answer my question?

Do you think it can compete with blu ray! :D

Depends. If your wanting to make blu ray sound expensive because of a lack of competition then the answer is no. However, if you're wanting to show that blu ray won't survive because it has too much competition then the answer is yes.

Depends. If your wanting to make blu ray sound expensive because of a lack of competition then the answer is no. However, if you're wanting to show that blu ray won't survive because it has too much competition then the answer is yes.

Well I do agree if there is too much competition that it could have the adverse effect, causing maybe a couple of companies to go under and the remaining ones to now be able to feel they could do more of what they want and that might not be good for the consumer.

I've created a new format I call virtual HD. Basically what it is, is an SD video of me watching HD movies. I hope to get studio support soon...

Why do you need "studio support?" I thought the only actor was you, and I assume you don't need anything more than that. Heaven knows watching you watch a movie will be more interesting than a bunch of movies coming out of majors.

Now.... if only folks didn't step on your idea and shut you up before it could get legs, you will have a chance to make millions ;) :).

Why do you need "studio support?" I thought the only actor was you, and I assume you don't need anything more than that. Heaven knows watching you watch a movie will be more interesting than a bunch of movies coming out of majors.

Now.... if only folks didn't step on your idea and shut you up before it could get legs, you will have a chance to make millions ;) :).

Oops, guess I didn't make it clear. The video will be done similar to Mystery Science theater, so you'd see me and the film I'm watching. Unless I'm mistaken you'd need the permission of the studios who's films are being watched. I plan to call the format "virtual HD with iceperson" and releases would be marketed by the studios as having a "special feature" no other format has. That feature of course is me, a mono soundtrack, and crappy VQ (my guess is twice as many people would care about those than currently care about "web enabled content."):D

Why do you need "studio support?" I thought the only actor was you, and I assume you don't need anything more than that. Heaven knows watching you watch a movie will be more interesting than a bunch of movies coming out of majors.

Now.... if only folks didn't step on your idea and shut you up before it could get legs, you will have a chance to make millions ;) :).

That funny amirm!

So let me see, we have HD-VMD and Icepersons Virtual HD, now we only need 5 more competitors to reach Mr Hanky's magic 7 competitors mark!

Anyone else, were open to suggestions! :D

How bout you phansson, you want to try and answer my question?

What question was that?

What question was that?

That would be the last sentence on post #81.

Oops, guess I didn't make it clear. The video will be done similar to Mystery Science theater, so you'd see me and the film I'm watching. Unless I'm mistaken you'd need the permission of the studios who's films are being watched. I plan to call the format "virtual HD with iceperson" and releases would be marketed by the studios as having a "special feature" no other format has. That feature of course is me, a mono soundtrack, and crappy VQ (my guess is twice as many people would care about those than currently care about "web enabled content."):D
Oh, I thought you were so good that the camera did not need to show the screen! :D

A bit of technical info about your idea. If AACS watermarking gets deployed, the soundtrack would have a mark in it. So if you recorded that movie, then burned a BD disc and attempted to play it, the player may refuse to do so (or mute the audio)! So called "birthday party" camcorder content with TV playing some movie in the background was a pesky problem to deal with....

Oops, guess I didn't make it clear. The video will be done similar to Mystery Science theater, so you'd see me and the film I'm watching. Unless I'm mistaken you'd need the permission of the studios who's films are being watched. I plan to call the format "virtual HD with iceperson" and releases would be marketed by the studios as having a "special feature" no other format has. That feature of course is me, a mono soundtrack, and crappy VQ (my guess is twice as many people would care about those than currently care about "web enabled content."):D

You are too much! :D

One final question, is blu ray better or worse now for having to compete with HD DVD, Yes or No?

Yes and no. I think that HD DVD made Blu Ray better (better quality.better initial prices).

Now that HD DVD isn't a factor anymore, Blu Ray will have a better chance of market penetration. All studios are involved. All retail chains will push "the next dvd".

Only time will tell but I wouldn't bet against Blu Ray.

If this is deployed in the US it will suck all of the Walmart business away from BD. $99 dollar player and 10 dollar movies? That is a price that will kill DVD and BD.

If this is deployed in the US it will suck all of the Walmart business away from BD. $99 dollar player and 10 dollar movies? That is a price that will kill DVD and BD.


Ive also seen pigs fly:rolleyes: We've all come to know that price point isnt important anymore

Yes and no. I think that HD DVD made Blu Ray better (better quality.better initial prices).

Now that HD DVD isn't a factor anymore, Blu Ray will have a better chance of market penetration. All studios are involved. All retail chains will push "the next dvd".

Only time will tell but I wouldn't bet against Blu Ray.

Come on phansson, there can only be one answer and that is your first one and the reasons you listed for it because without that the 2nd part of your answer would never materialize because it would never get off the ground. In other words you can have all the support in the world for a product but if the consumer thinks it is not necessary, not an improvement or too expensive, they aint going to buy it and HD DVD helped them in all those regards. I'm not betting against it but it has a very uphill climb even with everything stacked the way it is now because consumer interest is like a weather barometer which means it can go up or down. If it goes up, it might have a chance, if it goes down, it will end up like the other format. The ball is in their court and if it fails now they will have no one to blame but themselves. Thats why I think they would be better off with competition because when a company runs scared, it keeps them on their game and is less likely of any slip ups such as taking the consumer for granted, which would be a major mistake.

Similarly, br helped hdvd improve, or that format would have been released as a red-laser-based dvd-9 format with single-digit bitrate encodes at 720p. Did you forget that, as well? So that should leave you with the difficult realization of whether you are happy hdvd was upgraded to a blu-laser/hd30 design or are you disheartened that your "choice" was taken away for a potentially even more cost-effective implementation that would have been red/dvd-9 based.

Thats why I think they would be better off with competition because when a company runs scared, it keeps them on their game and is less likely of any slip ups such as taking the consumer for granted, which would be a major mistake.

Is dvd not venerable "competition"? Is there any shortage of media pr and blog articles suggesting daunting "competition" from downloads? In what sense are you determining br no longer has any "competition" now that hdvd is pushing up daisies? So which is it? BR is now king of the mountain and no plausible contenders, free to abuse us poor consumers, or are they "running scared" from the onslaught of downloads?

Me? I think the product is as dead as it can be for multiple reasons. So the wish above is not going to come through no matter what.

No offense intented, but your opinion may be very good news for HD VMD! :D

Lol!

I've created a new format I call virtual HD. Basically what it is, is an SD video of me watching HD movies. I hope to get studio support soon...Your new format could be a winner if it included certain features.

The HD features you're watching should be Bolliwood Movies.
The view of the video over your shoulder should be unobstructed.
You should have a female partner sitting next to you and she should have really big hair.
You should be wearing a hat.
You and your partner should occasionally obstruct the view of the video camera.
Whenever you (or your partner) obstructs the view of the video camera, you should trigger remotely a recording saying "Move Your Head" in a loud, booming voice.
Each production in your format should be from 8 to 12 hours long and consist of multiple discs (for the perceived value).


If your format incorporates all these features, LoDef will buy into the format and come on here and sing its praises.:)

Similarly, br helped hdvd improve, or that format would have been released as a red-laser-based dvd-9 format with single-digit bitrate encodes at 720p. Did you forget that, as well? So that should leave you with the difficult realization of whether you are happy hdvd was upgraded to a blu-laser/hd30 design or are you disheartened that your "choice" was taken away for a potentially even more cost-effective implementation that would have been red/dvd-9 based.



Is dvd not venerable "competition"? Is there any shortage of media pr and blog articles suggesting daunting "competition" from downloads? In what sense are you determining br no longer has any "competition" now that hdvd is pushing up daisies? So which is it? BR is now king of the mountain and no plausible contenders, free to abuse us poor consumers, or are they "running scared" from the onslaught of downloads?

So you agree competition is good for all involved then, thank you.

As for answers to your questions, you better go ask the people running blu ray what they consider competition because I don't see any other physical HDM co. execpt the one this thread is about and their a non story right now.

So are they running scared? it sure don't seem that way to me.

As for abusing the consumer, only their price structure will determine that but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see what they do over time.

To succeed they have to convince the consumer to buy their product, it's how they try to achive that goal that will tell if it is going to be successful or not. Nothing else!

Your new format could be a winner if it included certain features.

The HD features you're watching should be Bolliwood Movies.
The view of the video over your shoulder should be unobstructed.
You should have a female partner sitting next to you and she should have really big hair.
You should be wearing a hat.
You and your partner should occasionally obstruct the view of the video camera.
Whenever you (or your partner) obstructs the view of the video camera, you should trigger remotely a recording saying "Move Your Head" in a loud, booming voice.
Each production in your format should be from 8 to 12 hours long and consist of multiple discs (for the perceived value).


If your format incorporates all these features, LoDef will buy into the format and come on here and sing its praises.:)

And you will be right behind me! Gotta keep up with the Joneses! :D

Competition can yield good OR bad results, not "only" good results. :rolleyes: It's not that there is simply competition that produces the result, rather good competition or destructive competition that produces a good result or bad result for the consumer. This is the same misconception you have demonstrated with your "choices" argument.

So if you feel BR isn't "running scared", then you are essentially conceding that standard dvd and downloads are no match and present zero threat. Do you have the cajones to go out on a limb with a claim like that, or do you concede that your premise is nonsensical? Being a physical medium or not is largely irrelevant for this claim. Being "hd" isn't even a critical factor (but hey, hd-vmd is on the prowl, right?...so there is indeed "competition" in the hdm arena, as far as your logic goes). The consumer is only concerned with getting the movie. The quality and vehicle in which it is delivered are mere secondary aspects of the "choice".

So are you now going to argue that hd-vmd is not a legitimate form of competition in the hdm space on the count of it not having the same studio support? Perhaps...but only to the point where it is not particularly good competition, but "competition" nonetheless. Then again, studio support wasn't identical between br or hdvd, either. So your logic would then have to conclude that there was no legitimate competition between br or hdvd, as well. :eek: See how convoluted your position becomes when you get to pick and choose which factors matter while disregarding others, all in the name of pushing a rather contrived point?

Competition can yield good OR bad results, not "only" good results. :rolleyes: It's not that there is simply competition that produces the result, rather good competition or destructive competition that produces a good result or bad result for the consumer. This is the same misconception you have demonstrated with your "choices" argument.

So if you feel BR isn't "running scared", then you are essentially conceding that standard dvd and downloads are no match and present zero threat. Do you have the cajones to go out on a limb with a claim like that, or do you concede that your premise is nonsensical? Being a physical medium or not is largely irrelevant for this claim. Being "hd" isn't even a critical factor (but hey, hd-vmd is on the prowl, right?...so there is indeed "competition" in the hdm arena, as far as your logic goes). The consumer is only concerned with getting the movie. The quality and vehicle in which it is delivered are mere secondary aspects of the "choice".

Mr Hanky, I think were at a point where we seem to be going around in circles. You agree then disagree, you say it's good but also bad, yes there are choices but there are no choices. I think we got everything covered, don't you.

I think I'll give way to others who want to express their comments in relations to this thread because I pretty much have said everything I needed to without having to keep repeating it over and over again.

I like to give a Thank You to the mods for keeping this thread open. I know it got heated at times but I think it remained civil enough to continue. Hopefully it will stay that way.

Not sure I understand the logic behind either post. Nobody forced the BDA and Sony to payoff hundreds of millions of dollars to studios -- that was their decision! They found it necessary to erase a very good and financially viable format in HD DVD which was not going away otherwise. They were staring at an upcoming year that would have likely seen HD DVD increase their marketshare with affordable, fully functional players, and more exclusive studio support than ever before (including huge exclusive hits like Ironman, Cloverfield, Incredible Hulk, possibly Indy). Because of these reasons, they threw oodles of money at the studios. Buying the victory was their idea. Let's not pretend for a moment that the BDA was a victim of anything but their own greed.


Perhaps "forced" was a poor choice of words on my part. But if you read my original post again, you'll see that I wasn't referring to the money that has already been paid out to studios to support Blu-ray over HD-DVD (otherwise I would have said, "forced AGAIN"), but rather money that may have to be paid out to studios in the future to keep the HDM market from fracturing a second time, all for the sake of a format (HD VMD) that even Everdog admitted would probably fail. And while we're on the subject of payoffs to studios, please let's not pretend that the HD-DVD group wasn't guilty of the same thing. They just got outbid.

I have owned both Blu-ray and HD-DVD for quite a while, so you won't get any argument from me that HD-DVD was a worthy, viable competitor to Blu-ray. In fact, this is the core of my argument. Because both formats WERE capable of almost identical performance in the eyes of consumers, money was really the only chip either side had to play. The same can't be said for HD VMD. Other than being cheap, I don't see any qualitative advantage to it. This is especially true where I live because in Japan HD recordability is a consumer requirement that can't be ignored.

Unfortunately, being technically inferior wouldn't stop HD VMD from "muddying-up" the HDM market again because most consumers don't really care about the underlying technlogy involved. So the Blu-ray group could find itself in the position of having to give studios "incentives" once more just to head off another round of consumer confusion that would further slow HDM adoption. To me this seems wasteful and would add additional expense to Blu-ray supporting companies that either have to be absorbed by the companies or get passed on to consumers. If we're going to go through all of this again, at least let it be for a format that's worthy of the effort involved. Can anybody honestly say that HD VMD is that format?

How do we know until we see it! For idotic reasons or whatever people will try new things. That may frustrate some, but that´s just the way it is. When I can buy an HD VMD player I will! If that hurts BD or even DVD too bad! Competition is a good thing. BD has to compete with DVD and the companies that support BD could kill it by continuing their massive support of DVD. They haven´t got the imagination or fortitude to stop supporting DVD or to use DVD as a launching pad - HD DVD found this out the hard way! So will BD!

Cheers,

Grant

HD VMD players are available at PCRush.com. I plan on buying into this format. I'm not too worried about the format failing. $200 for an upconverting DVD player that also plays 1080p HD VMDs sounds like a great deal to me. Especially when you consider the fact that the movies cost $17.49.

They do have major studio support, unfortunately they can't release any of those movies in America. They offer movies like the Saw series, Kill Bill, Pulp Fiction and quite a few others. HD VMD is also going to be the only HD format offer the LOTR trilogy for the time being. I know a few people that would buy into just for those three movies. I just hope they release the extra long versions. The format is region free so it isn't that big of a deal. I've got no problems with importing movies. I also enjoy several foreign films, so this is a great format for me.

If they can get full studio and retail support (which I don't see happening), then I think that HD VMD could be in a position where the could eventually replace standard DVDs. If people had a choice to buy the same movie for $15 on SDVD or $18 on HD VMD, I think most people would go for the VMD version. I don't see this format ever overtaking Blu-Ray though. I think the formats could co-exist. VMD for the people that can't afford or don't want to buy into Blu-Ray, and Blu will remain a niche product because I don't see the format ever being priced reasonably enough for everyone to be able to afford it.

I think NME should go after Microsoft. If they can get M$ to release an FW update enabling all XBOX 360's to play HD VMDs, then all 360 game could take advantage of the high storage on VMD discs and NME can take advantage of all those HD VMD players already in people's homes. The best part about this is that all this could be done without pissing off any customers because all the old games would still work.

Disgruntled red ants still sore ??...need to vent??...your savior has arrived !!!...Communist CHINA !!!...where's that group hug smiley???

They were staring at an upcoming year that would have likely seen HD DVD increase their marketshare with affordable, fully functional players, and more exclusive studio support than ever before (including huge exclusive hits like Ironman, Cloverfield, Incredible Hulk, possibly Indy).I remember when you were pushing that the HD DVD exclusives from last year which hadn't hit the box office were going to make a big difference (another one of those just wait things). Seemed like you just picked out the HD DVD exclusive titles, ignored the Blu-ray exclusive titles, and then when it came to the box office the Blu-ray titles basically blew them away for box office take in the US. Basically, you were pushing how Sweeney Todd, Charlie Wilson's War, and American Gangster were going to make a huge difference, as if the HD DVD exclusives would do better. Yet the other side matched those and then some. None of those even came close to the take for National Treasure 2, all of them made less than Juno (which will end higher than ST and CWW combined), Enchanted made within 2% of the highest of those, etc. I could go down the list with things like 27 Dresses that also made more than 2 of those movies and after matching up with the HD DVD exclusives, Blu-ray ended up with exclusives to spare on their side from that timeframe. Although it likely won't do as well on HDM, even the Alvin and the Chipmunks movie brought in more than any 2 of those 3 movies you were talking about combined. But it isn't needed to match the HD DVD exclusives and then some. No matter when HD DVD pulled the plug I would expect you to list off the exclusive HD DVD movies which hadn't hit theaters yet and were going to make all the difference, while ignoring the Blu-ray exclusives coming up. It is easy to find some HD DVD exclusives that you can claim are going to do great and skip the things coming up on the other side, like Wall-E and Hancock coming up and that more exclusive studios increases the odds of having a hit come out of nowhere, like Juno did.

I also wouldn't be pulling out Cloverfield as a "huge exclusive hit" unless you want to start calling a lot more Blu-ray movies that made as much or more huge exclusive hits too. Cloverfield made a lot compared to its budget, but it looks like it will probably also set a record for the biggest opening weekend to then not get to $100 million in the US, and it is struggling to try to get to $80 million, let alone $100 million. Cloverfield crashed pretty hard after its first days. After 3 days it had brought in over $40 million. Now it might make it to double that and might not. It opened the same day as 27 Dresses and after one week had made almost $20 million more ($52 million to $32 million). Since then Cloverfield has made about $27 million, while 27D has made about $43 million. Your "huge exclusive hit" will end a fair amount lower than The Bucket List or The Game Plan and Jumper looks like even it will get close to the take for Cloverfield. I wouldn't call opening on 3400 screens and ending around $80 million a "huge exclusive hit" these days. After the first 4 days Cloverfield was looking a lot better than it has since as far as box office take. I wonder how many people who felt sick after watching it in the theater (from the shaky camera) will want to watch it again.

Indy being a Spielberg directed title and the Paramount/Dreamworks announcement specifically stating that they were excluded for that announcement left open the door for any possibility there (including being Blu-ray exclusive).

As far as payoffs, Toshiba wanted to pay Warner to go exclusive and the info I have is that Warner wouldn't let them. They didn't give Toshiba a chance to match any offer from the other side, because Warner wanted to go with a winner in short order. You can blame the Blu-ray side for offering money to Warner while Toshiba also offered money to Warner (and Fox) and Warner being willing to go with the Blu-ray side if you want. The people on the Blu-ray side set themselves up to be in a position where Warner was willing to go their way. Toshiba didn't.

--Darin

Darin,

If you review older posts you will see that I always mentioned BD exclusives as well. My point was always (and remains) that the landscape, had it remained pat, was at least even and likely favored HD DVD in 2008. This would have been a DRAMATIC difference from what transpired in 2007, and I'm sure even you would agree with that. Blu-Ray losing Paramount / Dreamworks for a full calendar year was going to hurt, as Paramount is poised to have another stellar season. And Universal also has some great titles lined up for 2008.

Look at the fact that American Gangster bested every BD release when it debuted even though the format was essentially defunct! Beowulf is another example of a film perfect for HDM. And Cloverfield and Sweeney Todd, Bee Movie, There Will Be Blood -- look at all the threads asking when we'll see these on Blu-Ray! Do you really think a film like Juno or Enchanted are going to break records on Blu-Ray? I'm buying both, but they won't sell like the films I've mentioned.

I mentioned Hancock in previous posts, as well as National Treasure, Wall*E, James Bond, Narnia, and a host of other BD-exclusive hits. Doesn't change the fact that Paramount & Universal had lined up the films already mentioned as well as Ironman, Wanted, Incredible Hulk, The Mummy 3, Hellboy 2, and many other films tailor-made for HDM.

Is it not all a moot point now anyway? HD DVD is dead thanks to Warner Brothers and life goes on. I'm nearing 200 Blu-Ray discs now, so I'd venture to guess I'm NOT a format fanboy but a movie fan in general. But if you honestly think Sony, Fox and Disney are going to overwhelm Paramount, Dreamworks and Universal this year, I'd say you're wrong.

If you review older posts you will see that I always mentioned BD exclusives as well.Like this post that shows how balanced you were in the exclusives you mentioned? :)
Well, the next few weeks will bring 3 HUGE future HD DVD exclusives to the big screen. I've been talking about American Gangster for months and it did not disappoint in box office receipts! Between Gangster, Bee Movie and Beowulf, HD DVD gets a huge shot in the arm for Q1, 2008. Then there's Charlie Wilson's War coming for Christmas as well. 2008 will be all HD DVD!Your, "I always mentioned BD exclusives as well" doesn't seem to apply to that post or some other posts I see there like pushing how well The Kingdom was going to do.
My point was always (and remains) that the landscape, had it remained pat, was at least even and likely favored HD DVD in 2008.I think it is pretty clear from your posts going back to November or so that you thought it was at least even and likely favored HD DVD for the titles hitting theaters in Q4 (to be released on HDM in 2008) also, but I think anybody looking at what happened can see that things didn't turn out that way.
Look at the fact that American Gangster bested every BD release when it debuted even though the format was essentially defunct!Yes, it bested a movie that made less than 40% of what AG did at the US box office and the other movie had to share some of its sales with HD DVD, since it also was coming out on it (Michael Clayton). But AG didn't best it by nearly as much on HDM as it did on DVD (where it sold over 3x what MC did) and beating Blu-ray titles that had been released in previous weeks was not a huge accomplishment in AGs first week. It is unlikely that National Treasure 2 (the title that would most likely have matched up with AG if we were matching HD DVD and Blu-ray exclusives down the list) would have any trouble at all beating all HD DVD titles the week it comes out if the best new HD DVD title that week was one that made less than 40% of what it did at the US box office.
Beowulf is another example of a film perfect for HDM. And Cloverfield and Sweeney Todd, Bee Movie, There Will Be Blood -- look at all the threads asking when we'll see these on Blu-Ray! Do you really think a film like Juno or Enchanted are going to break records on Blu-Ray?Interesting how you make the bar breaking records for the Blu-ray titles, when AG didn't break any records and yet you are bragging about what it did. Seriously, why did you use that spin? Did you need to raise the bar for the Blu-ray titles instead of using the same criteria as you used for HD DVD titles, for some reason? I doubt any of those titles you mentioned for HD DVD would have or will break sales records for HDM. You don't think titles like Sweeney Todd or Bee Movie are going to break records on HD DVD do you?
I'm buying both, but they won't sell like the films I've mentioned.Did you really just say that they won't sell like Bee Movie? I would hope you wouldn't stoop to claiming that those 2 combined wouldn't sell as well 6 movies you could think of for HD DVD, where you leave out the top Blu-ray exclusive but include the top HD DVDs you can think of, as if that would be some great accomplishment for HD DVD. So, I'm guessing you did just say that each of those you listed for HD DVD would do better than Juno and each would do better than Enchanted. I will be surprised if Sweeney Todd sells better than each of those and if you are going to include There Will Be Blood on the HD DVD side, then we need to include No Country for Old Men for Blu-ray since Disney and Paramount basically have swapped US and worldwide rights and it looks like Disney has the rights for There Will Be Blood in Japan and some other places. And NC4OM not only beat TWBB at the Oscars, it seems to be beating it pretty easily both in the US and overseas for box office take. I personally preferred TWBB, but that makes no difference. Also, if you want to discount NC4OM on Blu-ray because Paramount has rights overseas, then you have to discount Beowulf some on HD DVD too because Warner has rights to it overseas and Warner hasn't been using region encoding.
Is it not all a moot point now anyway?In some ways yes, but in at least one way no. Now you are telling us how things were going to be, yet on November 4th you were telling us that, "the next few weeks will bring 3 HUGE future HD DVD exclusives to the big screen" and "2008 will be all HD DVD!" You don't seriously think the the 3 of Bee Movie, Beowulf, and Charlie Wilson's War qualify as "3 HUGE future HD DVD exclusives" even if HD DVD had stuck around, do you? You might be able to make some case for Beowulf which made a little over $80 million at the US box office with the help of 3D presentations, but the other 2? Consider that Bee Movie was reported to be very much at a kid level and didn't do that much better than Shrek the Third in reviews (6.2/10 for Shrek the Third on imdb.com and 6.4/10 for Bee Movie, for instance), Bee Movie didn't make even close to what Shrek the Third did at the box office and it might even be a stretch to say that Shrek the Third was huge on HD DVD after its performance there. I'm not going to claim that another very kiddy movie, Alvin and the Chipmunks is going to be huge on Blu-ray, and it made way more at the US box office than Bee Movie.

I think how what you told us before turned out is relevant to your claims now about what would have happened if Warner hadn't switched to Blu-ray exclusively. It is possible that the HD DVD exclusives would have kicked butt or tied, but my point is that I've heard pretty much the same kinds of things from you before as far as what the upcoming movies were going to do and it didn't work out like you portrayed it. As I said, match up the Blu-ray exclusives to the HD DVD exclusives starting at the top for the Christmas season to now and Blu-ray would be able to more than match them (especially since it has more exclusive titles). National Treasure 2 should top American Gangster and on down the line.

BTW: Now that Toshiba has called it quits, I'm curious whether you will say that HD DVDs which can no longer be purchased new will need to be considered non-existent. Basically wondering if you are going to apply different rules now (like with HD DVDs you own) than when you said:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11665003&postcount=329
Is an OOP disc ever considered available? Sure, there are copies floating around now. But at some point the Paramount BD titles will need to be considered non-existent, as they won't be available for purchase.

Not trying to spin, just simply stating facts.Do you still think "non-existent" is stating the facts and not spinning, now that the shoe is on the other foot? Will you consider HD DVDs you own non-existent when they can only be purchased on the used market and HD DVDs you don't own, but could choose to buy used, to be non-existent?

--Darin

HDVMD looks so lame it makes HDDVD look advanced.

In some ways yes, but in at least one way no. Now you are telling us how things were going to be, yet on November 4th you were telling us that, "the next few weeks will bring 3 HUGE future HD DVD exclusives to the big screen" and "2008 will be all HD DVD!" You don't seriously think the the 3 of Bee Movie, Beowulf, and Charlie Wilson's War qualify as "3 HUGE future HD DVD exclusives" even if HD DVD had stuck around, do you? You might be able to make some case for Beowulf which made a little over $80 million at the US box office with the help of 3D presentations, but the other 2? Consider that Bee Movie was reported to be very much at a kid level and didn't do that much better than Shrek the Third in reviews (6.2/10 for Shrek the Third on imdb.com and 6.4/10 for Bee Movie, for instance), Bee Movie didn't make even close to what Shrek the Third did at the box office and it might even be a stretch to say that Shrek the Third was huge on HD DVD after its performance there. I'm not going to claim that another very kiddy movie, Alvin and the Chipmunks is going to be huge on Blu-ray, and it made way more at the US box office than Bee Movie.

I think how what you told us before turned out is relevant to your claims now about what would have happened if Warner hadn't switched to Blu-ray exclusively. It is possible that the HD DVD exclusives would have kicked butt or tied, but my point is that I've heard pretty much the same kinds of things from you before as far as what the upcoming movies were going to do and it didn't work out like you portrayed it. As I said, match up the Blu-ray exclusives to the HD DVD exclusives starting at the top for the Christmas season to now and Blu-ray would be able to more than match them (especially since it has more exclusive titles). National Treasure 2 should top American Gangster and on down the line.

BTW: Now that Toshiba has called it quits, I'm curious whether you will say that HD DVDs which can no longer be purchased new will need to be considered non-existent. Basically wondering if you are going to apply different rules now (like with HD DVDs you own) than when you said:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11665003&postcount=329
Do you still think "non-existent" is stating the facts and not spinning, now that the shoe is on the other foot? Will you consider HD DVDs you own non-existent when they can only be purchased on the used market and HD DVDs you don't own, but could choose to buy used, to be non-existent?

--Darin

Darin,

I don't want to continue to derail this thread, but I will comment one last time.

Yes, I stated in many posts that I felt the better exclusives coming in 4th quarter 2007 and 2008 were going to be on HD DVD. I still feel marquee films that were exclusive to HD DVD in late 2007 (The Kingdom, American Gangster, Beowulf, Charlie Wilson's War, Sweeney Todd, Bee Movie) are better than the major Blu-Ray exclusives from the same time frame (AvP 2, National Treasure 2, Alvin & the Chipmunks, Enchanted, Juno) unless you happen to be a kid. I never suspected Juno would be a big hit, nor did anyone else posting in these threads at the time. I also didn't expect The Heartbreak Kid to be a bust, nor did I think AvP2 would tank (sometimes there is hope). But it's not simply about box office receipts and I know you're aware of this. How box office tallies translate into HDM sales is a much different animal.

It's futile to try and determine what would have happened in the marketplace after the Warner decision since HD DVD has been killed off. But surely you wouldn't argue the fact that HD DVD would have been more competitive with TWO exclusive studios rather than one, which was the crux of my arguement -- especially considering Paramount was the #1 studio in 2007 and poised to repeat in 2008! Are you disagreeing with this opinion?

As you know, the majority of the posts regarding HDM future sales were found in SimpleTheater's 14-page "blockbuster" thread which had been started to basically drub Universal Studios. All I was doing was defending Universal and its slate of films, but the thread quickly degenerated into Universal bashing and an attack on HD DVD. The ironic thing is, towards the end of the thread, Simple had come full-circle, Paramount had dropped Blu-Ray, and Universal ended the year tied with Disney for the most # of blockbusters (based on his criteria).

But, again, this is ancient history now. We've got one format going forward and I've been doing my part to support Blu-Ray. I still believe, however, that had the landscape remained unchanged HD DVD would have made up ground in 2008. You state that you've "heard [this] from [me] before as far as what the upcoming movies were going to do and it didn't work out like portrayed it", but what had I projected before? The format was defunct before any of these films I had mentioned were released, so how did my projections not work out? Nobody can tell how sales would have looked with these movies on HD DVD because they never had a chance to come out...certainly American Ganster's release on HD DVD proved [I]something?!? Outselling the #1 Blu-Ray release by nearly 2:1 just showed how pathetic sales on both formats were. You cite Michael Clayton's box-office in comparison to AG, but let's be realistic...when American Gangster debuted the HD DVD format was already dead.

I still maintain that 2008 saw better titles for HD DVD than BD. You can argue this point all you want, but I find the combination of Ironman, The Incredible Hulk, Cloverfield, Indiana Jones and the Kingdom Of the Crystal Skull (NOT covered under the Spielberg / Dreamworks deal but who knows what would have happened on HDM), Wanted, Kung Fu Panda, Star Trek, Hellboy II, and The Mummy III would have fared better than Blu-Ray's top exclusives in 2008. Maybe we should compare how they all do on BD later this year and see who's right. ;) Otherwise, there's not much need for further arguing.

HDVMD looks so lame it makes HDDVD look advanced.

Since you brought it up, if it makes HD DVD look advanced then what would you think that makes Blu ray?

Meh, I think HD VMD will fail.

I'd personally like to see the format thrive. At the prices it can retail for, I'd like to see studios dump SDVDs in favor of HD VMD. Then we would have HD VMD as cheaper format (or new standard) alongside Blu-Ray, the niche format. I know it will never happen, but I would certainly love to see it go down that way.

Since you brought it up, if it makes HD DVD look advanced then what would you think that makes Blu ray?

The winner?

Anywho, it seems really silly for HD VMD to attempt to gain market share at this point.

The winner?

Anywho, it seems really silly for HD VMD to attempt to gain market share at this point.

Yeah, but I'm sure they already dumped quite a large amount on R&D, so I believe the thinking is, "we might as well release it".

I might buy a player just to have one. I hope a good chunk of discs come to the US. I heard their region free but movie may be difficult to get at first. Ebay and xploited maybe

Since you brought it up, if it makes HD DVD look advanced then what would you think that makes Blu ray?


Yeah really.. :) BD players and discs being less featured than their HD DVD counterparts. I don't think "advanced" was the most applicable word for this guy to use. Sure, HD DVD is dead, but it doesn't stop it from being more advanced at this present time.

The winner?

Anywho, it seems really silly for HD VMD to attempt to gain market share at this point.

Well first... Blu Ray won for no other reason than studio support. The quality difference between HD DVD and Blu Ray is (or was)about the same.

Second, Blu Ray is not even close to digging its heels into the market yet so it makes perfect sense for HD VMD to give it a shot. Unless of course you can think of a better time.

Third, as with HD DVD, the ONLY thing that Blu Ray has right now over HD VMD is studio support.... which we all well know by now, can change like the wind.

IF HD VMD can gain some serious studio support (and that's a big if in my book), then Blu Ray will have another very serious contender.

On the other hand, there's a professor taking the major CE companies to court over the blue laser diode (a patent issue... the professor believes the technique for developing the blue laser was stolen from her.... and she's being taken quite seriously). If an injunction is thrown in Blu Ray's direction... then it will all get very interesting.

I still maintain that 2008 saw better titles for HD DVD than BD. You can argue this point all you want, but I find the combination of Ironman, The Incredible Hulk, Cloverfield, Indiana Jones and the Kingdom Of the Crystal Skull (NOT covered under the Spielberg / Dreamworks deal but who knows what would have happened on HDM), Wanted, Kung Fu Panda, Star Trek, Hellboy II, and The Mummy III would have fared better than Blu-Ray's top exclusives in 2008. Maybe we should compare how they all do on BD later this year and see who's right. ;) Otherwise, there's not much need for further arguing.

Well, there are a couple of Flops I can already see on that list.

The incredible Hulk. I like the Hulk, but after the Ang Lee disaster... will people be willing to give the movie another chance?

Hellboy II? Hardly a top release

The Mummy? Does this movie feature the Rock? Otherwise, I foresee a flop! :)

Certainly there are some good titles on that list... I wonder though, if Toshiba viewed the release schedule as "Favorable", Why did toshiba close shop soo quickly?

Third, as with HD DVD, the ONLY thing that Blu Ray has right now over HD VMD is studio support.... which we all well know by now, can change like the wind.

IF HD VMD can gain some serious studio support (and that's a big if in my book), then Blu Ray will have another very serious contender.


Well, studio support, CE support, retail support, more cash on hand, greater storage capacity, High Definition Audio codecs, better built players from Brand name companies with reputations for quality and reliability...

Yeah... but if you exclude all those other things, all Blu Ray has over HD-VMD is studio support.

Well, studio support, CE support, retail support, more cash on hand, greater storage capacity, High Definition Audio codecs, better built players from Brand name companies with reputations for quality and reliability...

Yeah... but if you exclude all those other things, all Blu Ray has over HD-VMD is studio support.

Yes... and average Joe is sure to think of EVERY one of these things..... just like they are now. :rolleyes:

Yes... and average Joe is sure to think of EVERY one of these things..... just like they are now. :rolleyes:

Oh thats right.... the average customer doesnt care about those little things... like reliable products from companies they have heard of.... nor do they care that they cant find a product or its movies in the stores

Oh thats right.... the average customer doesnt care about those little things... like reliable products from companies they have heard of.... nor do they care that they cant find a product or its movies in the stores

Had this conversation 1000 times.

Average Joe cares about convenience and price, all else is secondary. MP3 players and McDonald's are proof of this. Both bad in terms of quality but both make a fortune because they're fast, cheap, convenient and easy

Blu ray players are complicated, expensive, and slow (Let's not get into the PS3... which is a game console and markets to a specialized crowd.) There is no way in the world that average Joe will accept Blu Ray in its present stage at this time. HD VMD (whether you support it or not) is cheaper and less complicated. Again... a big IF.... but if they get enough major studio support then Blu Ray will have another fight on its hands. Nothing is written in stone in the hdm world right now.... not even Blu Ray.

And BTW... Not too many people heard of Onkyo until a short while ago.... now it's right up there being compared to Denon, Yamaha and others.

And just exactly how many cheap no-name Chinese dvd players (among other Chinese electronic devices) do North Americans consume in a Year? Not exactly quality stuff... but there's a big market for it.

And BTW... Not too many people heard of Onkyo until a short while ago.... now it's right up there being compared to Denon, Yamaha and others

Wow, I really have to disagree with this one. I don't know how you define "a short while ago," but I've been in this hobby for more than 25 years, and in all that time, Onkyo has been a familiar brand to anyone with even a casual interest in audio. It may not have had the same level of name recognition as mass market brands like Sony, Pioneer or Kenwood, but it was at least in Denon and Yamaha's ballpark.

In fact, back in my college days in the 80s I worked part-time as a salesman in one of the biggest electronics retailers in Hawaii (we were also one of the top 5 Sony and Panasonic retailers in Western U.S.). Even then, Onkyo was our top selling audio brand. Denon on the other hand, was less well-known because they had a limited number of retailers carrying the brand and could only be found in high-end boutique shops.

HD VMD is vaporware. No major studio in the would be stupid enough to support them. The goal is to have all the major studios support. Why on earth would they make the switch to an inferior, unknown format to split the market and cause more confusion, and bring us all back to stage 1 again?

HD VMD can't even manage to get itself into major retail stores like Best Buy or Circuit City. The Fat Lady has sung.

Had this conversation 1000 times.

Average Joe cares about convenience and price, all else is secondary. MP3 players and McDonald's are proof of this. Both bad in terms of quality but both make a fortune because they're fast, cheap, convenient and easy

Blu ray players are complicated, expensive, and slow (Let's not get into the PS3... which is a game console and markets to a specialized crowd.) There is no way in the world that average Joe will accept Blu Ray in its present stage at this time. HD VMD (whether you support it or not) is cheaper and less complicated. Again... a big IF.... but if they get enough major studio support then Blu Ray will have another fight on its hands. Nothing is written in stone in the hdm world right now.... not even Blu Ray.

And BTW... Not too many people heard of Onkyo until a short while ago.... now it's right up there being compared to Denon, Yamaha and others.

And just exactly how many cheap no-name Chinese dvd players (among other Chinese electronic devices) do North Americans consume in a Year? Not exactly quality stuff... but there's a big market for it.


1) Onkyo was not heard of until recently? When you say recently... you mean the 70s and 80s?

2) Cheap and convinient... hmmm, not too convinient if you cant find movies or players in the store.

3) While I am sure that a decent amount of people will buy the awesome Insignia DVD players for their main TV... these are not the people who care about quality... so why would they want to spend $200 for an NME player?

4) So Would you spend $200 for an NME player? If so, why dont you go and order one.

1) Onkyo was not heard of until recently? When you say recently... you mean the 70s and 80s?

2) Cheap and convinient... hmmm, not too convinient if you cant find movies or players in the store.

3) While I am sure that a decent amount of people will buy the awesome Insignia DVD players for their main TV... these are not the people who care about quality... so why would they want to spend $200 for an NME player?

4) So Would you spend $200 for an NME player? If so, why dont you go and order one.

You can't find movies and such in just any store because because big studio has yet to offer its support.

Onkyo is still very new... especially here in Canada

You and I are not average Joe... what we do is very different. And average Joe at the moment won't even spend $200 on a HD player.... it's not worth it to them..... that's why nothing is written in stone in the HDM world.... it's still very much an open market.

And average Joe at the moment won't even spend $200 on a HD player....

You nailed it right on the head. J6P doesn't care about HDM in general and HD-VMD's efforts are futile at best. BTW, this whole HD-VMD thing is nothing new. I read about a while ago and with their slate of movies, it'll amount to a big nothing.

You can't find movies and such in just any store because because big studio has yet to offer its support.

Onkyo is still very new... especially here in Canada

You and I are not average Joe... what we do is very different. And average Joe at the moment won't even spend $200 on a HD player.... it's not worth it to them..... that's why nothing is written in stone in the HDM world.... it's still very much an open market.

No studios to distribute movies
No Store to sell players or movies
No CE support to make players
No brand name to rely on(IE toshiba)
Little financial backing for advertising
Price still to high for people. Esp a no name brand.

So do you still contend that if you take the studio advantage is the only advantage that BD has over this HD-VMD?

With all these drawbacks, HD-VMD is worthless. HD-DVD had a ton more advantages compared to HD-VMD, and it was cheaper than hd-vmd... they still defaulted.

So do you still contend that if you take the studio advantage is the only advantage that BD has over this HD-VMD?


For the most part.... yes.

If all the studios left Blu ray tomorrow and headed over for the HD VMD side.... blu ray would die just as fast as HD DVD did. Of course that would never happen, but the point is that at this early stage of the game... the studios have ALL the power. They can put a format on the map... or they can kill it just as they did with hd dvd.

For the most part.... yes.

If all the studios left Blu ray tomorrow and headed over for the HD VMD side.... blu ray would die just as fast as HD DVD did. Of course that would never happen, but the point is that at this early stage of the game... the studios have ALL the power. They can put a format on the map... or they can kill it just as they did with hd dvd.

Studios didnt kill HD-DVD. Toshiba did with their follies

1) they sold players for $100-$150 with 7 movies. You think these people will be ready to pay $30/disc

2) When they paid off paramount to make them exclusive, instead of doing that, they should have concentrated on getting another studio to go nuetral. Customers need more movies. They dont need the competition to have less movies.

That left all eyes on Warner. They hit them with a killing blow. But it would not have been as devestating... had Toshiba not put themselves in that position.

Also, Studios wont go to HD-VMD, because.... there are no CEs supporting HD-VMD, and there are no retailers... and there is a better alternative.

Studios didnt kill HD-DVD. Toshiba did with their follies

1) they sold players for $100-$150 with 7 movies. You think these people will be ready to pay $30/disc

2) When they paid off paramount to make them exclusive, instead of doing that, they should have concentrated on getting another studio to go nuetral. Customers need more movies. They dont need the competition to have less movies.

That left all eyes on Warner. They hit them with a killing blow. But it would not have been as devestating... had Toshiba not put themselves in that position.

Also, Studios wont go to HD-VMD, because.... there are no CEs supporting HD-VMD, and there are no retailers... and there is a better alternative.

Huh??

First you say: Studios didnt kill HD-DVD
Then you say: That left all eyes on Warner. They hit them with a killing blow.

Look... the bottom line here is that the studios have the controlling interest, for the moment anyway. Once public momentum starts rolling then it becomes a new ball game but at this stage, it's the major studios that make or break a given format... it's that simple.

I keep saying to you that HD VMD won't go anywhere if and until they gain some heavy hitting studios. If they do, (and it's a big if) then Blu Ray is in for another fight.

Huh??

First you say:
Then you say:

Look... the bottom line here is that the studios have the controlling interest, for the moment anyway. Once public momentum starts rolling then it becomes a new ball game but at this stage, it's the major studios that make or break a given format... it's that simple.

I keep saying to you that HD VMD won't go anywhere if and until they gain some heavy hitting studios. If they do, (and it's a big if) then Blu Ray is in for another fight.

Obviously you dont understand that I am saying there are multiple reasons that HD-DVD is dead. Toshiba is at fault for putting themselves in a bad position. And if you want to get technical about it. HD-DVD survived the warner announcement. It only died when its only major CE left(toshiba).

Let me put it in a way you may understand. Whats more important to a car.. the engine, the transmission, fuel, or wheels?

Saying that Studios are the only thing important is an absolutely incorrect statement. If no CEs produce BD(including sony)... what happens to BD? If no retailers Sell BD, would BD survive?

The answer to all of these questions is NO. And they are all advantages to BD. Saying that one is more important than another is like saying an engine is more important than the transmission. Without either, you wont go anywhere.

Note: Sony could keep BD alive by themselves because they are Sony, and they control a Major studio and are a Major CE. NME is not. They are not even a Major CE.

Saying that Studios are the only thing important is an absolutely incorrect statement. If no CEs produce BD(including sony)... what happens to BD? If no retailers Sell BD, would BD survive?



What you don't seem to understand is that all your points are linked, and hinge on studio support. If HD VMD gained major studio support then all other support that you seem to be so hung up on... would follow. Just as if Blu Ray lost all studio support.... all other support would crumble.... just as what happened to HD DVD. It's studio support at this stage that makes or breaks a format.

Regardless to whether you believe Toshiba was responsible for their own demise, the fact is that they died due to waning studio support, and when Warner (the big studio) went blu ray exclusive, all support start crumbling.

Your car example would be great if we were talking about MAKING a format, but we're not. We're talking about SELLING one.

Sony could keep Blu Ray open..... but they would do it at a LOSS. Sony studios would take a major hit if they released on blu ray only and not dvd, and almost no one would purchase blu ray machines and disks for ONE studio if they already came out on dvd. Why do you think they continue to produce dvd's in the first place??? They could easily stop dvd production and produce everything they have in blu ray. They don't do this because they know it would be about the same as shooting one self in the foot. Heck... under your pretense, they could have kept Beta going after the VHS crunch.... but they didn't. Eventually when the losses piled up, they joined in with VHS.

And BTW... have a look at the VHS to dvd shift. Dvd really picked up when the market was flooded with cheap Chinese players. This completely discounts your quality/CE theory.

What you don't seem to understand is that all your points are linked, and hinge on studio support. If HD VMD gained major studio support then all other support that you seem to be so hung up on... would follow. Just as if Blu Ray lost all studio support.... all other support would crumble.... just as what happened to HD DVD. It's studio support at this stage that makes or breaks a format.

Regardless to whether you believe Toshiba was responsible for their own demise, the fact is that they died due to waning studio support, and when Warner (the big studio) went blu ray exclusive, all support start crumbling.

Your car example would be great if we were talking about MAKING a format, but we're not. We're talking about SELLING one.

Sony could keep Blu Ray open..... but they would do it at a LOSS. Sony studios would take a major hit if they released on blu ray only and not dvd, and almost no one would purchase blu ray machines and disks for ONE studio if they already came out on dvd. Why do you think they continue to produce dvd's in the first place??? They could easily stop dvd production and produce everything they have in blu ray. They don't do this because they know it would be about the same as shooting one self in the foot. Heck... under your pretense, they could have kept Beta going after the VHS crunch.... but they didn't. Eventually when the losses piled up, they joined in with VHS.

And BTW... have a look at the VHS to dvd shift. Dvd really picked up when the market was flooded with cheap Chinese players. This completely discounts your quality/CE theory.

Well, if you have so much faith in HD-VMD, then you need to order it. Here you go. Let me know how that goes.

http://nmestore.com/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=2

So it is looking like the road to unbridled riches is not all that clear for BR and Sony after all. Between the HD-VMD format and Toshiba's virtual HD from SD-DVD processor/player, we may see BR begin to flounder, especially if (as likely) they keep to the high price approach. I would not shed a tear for BR going kaput, if for no other reason than Sony deserves it. In any event, it is looking like the days of a single format (VHS, DVD) being dominant are dead - welcome to the future!

So it is looking like the road to unbridled riches is not all that clear for BR and Sony after all. Between the HD-VMD format and Toshiba's virtual HD from SD-DVD processor/player, we may see BR begin to flounder, especially if (as likely) they keep to the high price approach. I would not shed a tear for BR going kaput, if for no other reason than Sony deserves it. In any event, it is looking like the days of a single format (VHS, DVD) being dominant are dead - welcome to the future!

1- BR isn't a sony product. Most of the biggest CE companies are on the board of directors of the format.

2- Virtual HD is like virtual sex. It's a really bad substitute for the real thing.

3- HD-VMD as no and will not have any studio support since they are for the most part also member of the BR alliance.

4- BR isn't a replacement for SD DVD. It's a complimentary product bought by people who wants more than SD DVD. In the future it may come to replace SD DVD but that's a long way off.

Well, if you have so much faith in HD-VMD, then you need to order it. Here you go. Let me know how that goes.

http://nmestore.com/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=2

He is pretty much saying the same thing I told you, IF they get some major studio support then they might be worth some consideration but by you keep responding with you better go buy one then shows your lack of understanding what is actually being discussed here whether it's intentional or not.

He is pretty much saying the same thing I told you, IF they get some major studio support then they might be worth some consideration but by you keep responding with you better go buy one then shows your lack of understanding what is actually being discussed here whether it's intentional or not.

Hmmm, well if BigBarney is correct... wouldnt studios see it that way? Wouldnt they join HD-VMD to jump on the low cost no-name chinese manufacturer bandwagon?

If you and he have so much faith in HD-VMD, you should buy into it. Otherwise you are doing what most people know you are doing. Pretending to believe in anything thats not BD.... but not backing it up.

Why? Hoping that other people will waste their money? You wont convince anyone

I have planted a bomb in all HD VMD devices. If you buy one, you will explode into a thousand pieces.

Plus, this thread is set to self destruct in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ....

Hmmm, well if BigBarney is correct... wouldnt studios see it that way? Wouldnt they join HD-VMD to jump on the low cost no-name chinese manufacturer bandwagon?

If you and he have so much faith in HD-VMD, you should buy into it. Otherwise you are doing what most people know you are doing. Pretending to believe in anything thats not BD.... but not backing it up.

Why? Hoping that other people will waste their money? You wont convince anyone

Thats the type of response that shows your fanboy side at it's best. The war is over but lets try and continue it with comments like that. Sorry to want to discuss something that actually has to do with HDM. Neither him or I are making HD-VMD up, it really exist you know. Yes it's not BD but this is not bluray.com and matters related to HDM and posted in the appropriate forum, which this is, should be allowed to be dicussed here without snide remarks as witnessed above. I never said I would buy into it or encourage others to do so even if it did have studio support but thanks again for trying to talk for me and telling everyone what they should do. :rolleyes:

He is pretty much saying the same thing I told you, IF they get some major studio support then they might be worth some consideration but by you keep responding with you better go buy one then shows your lack of understanding what is actually being discussed here whether it's intentional or not.

Why are people arguing over this at all? There is like .01 percent of a chance of it actually happening. You might as well speculate what would happen if the studios were to abandon DVD for HD VMD.

Why are people arguing over this at all? There is like .01 percent of a chance of it actually happening. You might as well speculate what would happen if the studios were to abandon DVD for HD VMD.

Its already available to order. If Lodef and Big Barney actually believe what they are saying... they should put their money where their mouths are, and buy in.

Studios are the only thing that matter. Low Cost Chinese players are the only thing that can save Hi Def. If they are right its only a matter of time before studios jump in.

Brand Name CEs dont matter,
retail support doesnt matter,
cash on hand doesnt matter.. etc

You can't find movies and such in just any store because because big studio has yet to offer its support.

Onkyo is still very new... especially here in Canada

You and I are not average Joe... what we do is very different. And average Joe at the moment won't even spend $200 on a HD player.... it's not worth it to them..... that's why nothing is written in stone in the HDM world.... it's still very much an open market.

While I really don't even know why I scanned this far through this thread. one thing I will say that is that I bought an Onkyo receiver in Montreal AT LEAST 20 years ago and probably more like 25 years. So if that is new then ok.

Cheers,

Richard

Its already available to order. If Lodef and Big Barney actually believe what they are saying... they should put their money where their mouths are, and buy in.

Studios are the only thing that matter. Low Cost Chinese players are the only thing that can save Hi Def. If they are right its only a matter of time before studios jump in.

Brand Name CEs dont matter,
retail support doesnt matter,
cash on hand doesnt matter.. etc

So your analogy is if you don't buy or own something that is being discussed, your not entitled to an opinion then! :rolleyes: It's quite obvious your agenda is to get this thread closed so I will defer from responding to anymore of your ridiculous statements.

So your analogy is if you don't buy or own something that is being discussed, your not entitled to an opinion then! :rolleyes: It's quite obvious your agenda is to get this thread closed so I will defer from responding to anymore of your ridiculous statements.

You dont have to own one. But you have to actually want one, if you are trying to peddle it as the next best thing. Its clear that you dont want one, nor are you interested. You dont even have a faint amount of interest, otherwise you wouldnt be so "insulted by the notion of buying one"

HD-VMD doesnt have any ANY redeeming qualities. Its made by an unknown chinese company and its not even cheap. HD-DVD was cheaper, had a name brand as well as several major studios and retail support.

While I really don't even know why I scanned this far through this thread. one thing I will say that is that I bought an Onkyo receiver in Montreal AT LEAST 20 years ago and probably more like 25 years. So if that is new then ok.

Cheers,

Richard

I know this is OT, but the funny thing is if you were into audio back then, which I was, their stuff was much better made than what they make today. I had the TX-85 reciever in the early 80's with built-in dbx NR and when I used it to transfer my LP's onto cassette the thing sounded incredible and many people could not tell the difference which one was playing. I had it for over 10 years until I decided to go separates when I upgraded my system for more power.

Thats the type of response that shows your fanboy side at it's best. The war is over but lets try and continue it with comments like that. Sorry to want to discuss something that actually has to do with HDM. Neither him or I are making HD-VMD up, it really exist you know. Yes it's not BD but this is not bluray.com and matters related to HDM and posted in the appropriate forum, which this is, should be allowed to be dicussed here without snide remarks as witnessed above. I never said I would buy into it or encourage others to do so even if it did have studio support but thanks again for trying to talk for me and telling everyone what they should do. :rolleyes:

Actually, this is the 'Blu ray and HD DVD areas' section, this thread has to do with neither...

Enough.