It is awkward to see enthusiast sites playing devil's advocate and trying to undermine hidef-on-disc now that the format war is over, considering that one of their declared goals is to increase awareness and adoption of high-quality home video and audio.


On its March 2-8 issue, Home Media Magazine featured a 'guest editorial' (from 'the staff of hometheaterfourm.com') awash with doom and gloom:

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/buzz_article.cfm?article_id=12210

With low-cost up-converting players available, Blu-ray offers very little practical improvement over DVD for the average consumer. It is banking on its super high-quality audio and video, but the cost of entry for these improvements isn’t cheap.

[...]

If Blu-ray can offer creative features and a quality viewing experience at a reasonable price, it has a shot, but it must move fast since there is only a brief window to succeed thanks to the hovering threat of cheap high-definition Web downloads.

For now the format’s future is still uncertain, and the eyes of many will be closely scrutinizing its direction over the coming months. Any wrong step could still see it consigned to the scrap heap of dead formats that have tried valiantly and failed. Any doubts? Just ask Toshiba.

This met the response of dvdfile's Dan Ramer, on his article The culture of war - The hype of doom and gloom (http://www.dvdfile.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6584). It addresses in depth the claims by 'misguided pundits' (ie the download prophets), what the Toshiba CEO said about upconverting, and the pseudo-rebirth of VMD.

Here are his conclusions:

Blu-ray Disc won the war. It deserved to win. It unquestionably provides the best high definition home presentation that today’s technology can deliver. Don’t be deceived by pretenders to the throne. If you want the best, BD delivers it. The economies of scale will bring prices down. [...]

I know that you’re sufficiently discriminating to want the best for your home theater. It’s my hope that mainstream consumers will discover and appreciate the clarity of Blu-ray Disc's visuals and the superiority of its audio, embrace the fomat, and make it as financially successful and popular as DVD has ever been.

*****
Only a week after the HTF column, Home Media Magazine also printed an article by 'the staff of blu-ray.com' in the same vein:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/jasonrorie/snap001.jpg

If they want BD to succed they should do more about the software pricing.

As long as DVD is cheaper, it is harder to motivate the avarage public in going to HDM.


The biggest problem is the studios. They want to relive the golden age of DVD.


PS

Whats best for my hometheater and whats best for my wallet, are two very different things ;)

I guess one man's doom and gloom is another man's practical reality.

I read nothing in the quoted comments from HTF that I consider "doom & gloom", but I do consider a realistic opinion of the state of the Blu-ray format in the context of mainstream adoption.

BTW, "mainstream" is not AVS, HTF, or Dan Ramer.

Doesn't it all boil down to . . .

"Now that you beat HD DVD . . . what about DVD?"

"What are your plans?"

The format war - skirmish - whatever has just ended, people on both sides of the dispute are still just winding down, my guess is that by the time the next holiday season comes around we will see which scenario will be the real one, the Blu-ray won but lost the war, or the starting ramp towards DVD replacement.
If I were a betting person, i would bet on blu-ray gaining market share, as it has better margins for the retailers, and studio's. We as consumers will probably see the benefits of competition among the CE's, and all the studio's competing for my $$'s.
But I do agree that the prices are still a little high for main stream adoption but that is where economies of scale come into play.

It is awkward to see enthusiast sites playing devil's advocate and trying to undermine hidef-on-disc now that the format war is over, considering that one of their declared goals is to increase awareness and adoption of high-quality home video and audio.That may be the stated goals of those web sites but that is not necessarily the goals of the people who post on them. Some people are bitter that Blu-ray won and want to see it fail which I think explains a lot of the doom and gloom posts that continue to be posted against Blu-ray.

As long as DVD is cheaper, it is harder to motivate the avarage public in going to HDM.


I see you follow HTF's stance:

With the retail pricing of some bare-bones discs around $40 [...], the format is strictly for eager enthusiasts.

Read then what dvdfile says:

A doomsday article made a price comparison that was disingenuous. I just bought three or four BDs that I could not review without seeming like a pig to my fellow reviewers. The prices ranged from $16.45 to $19.95 at Amazon with free shipping, not the $30 each cited in the article. And even though that cost is more than $5 downloads, the images are infinitely superior, the sound is overwhelmingly lossless (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, or uncompressed PCM – something download services don’t offer), they have extensive supplements, I can play them as many times as I want whenever I want, and they will last for decades.

For instance, let's look at a prominent upcoming day-and-date title: Warner's I Am Legend. You have the following options:


Edition Video Audio Extras MSRP amazon
Single-disc DVD 480i Lossy Scarce $28.98 $16.99
Two-disc SE DVD 480i Lossy Lots $34.99 $22.99
Blu-ray 1080p Lossless Lots $35.99 $24.95



So for $1 MSRP ($2 amazon) over the special edition, you get a release with the same extras, and hidef video and audio. Is that unreasonable?

Blu-ray's market share and popularity grows every day. Doom and gloom isn't even a thought on mind mind at this point for blu-ray, last year after Paramount's buy out I had my doubts but they are long gone now.

Can't wait to watch ID4 tonight :D

It is awkward to see enthusiast sites playing devil's advocate and trying to undermine hidef-on-disc...
No more awkward than enthusiasts playing corporate cheerleader. But seriously, no ones trying to "undermine" anything, they're writing articles and asking questions, just another day at the office.

From Best Buy . . the largest seller of HD movies on disc:

No Country For Old Men:

DVD - $15.99

BD - $29.99

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp;jsessionid=N4JALFTDSP5BPKC4D3LFAGQ?_dyncharset=I SO-8859-1&id=pcat17071&type=page&st=No+country+for+old+men&sc=movieSP&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=Movies&ks=960

I think a lot of criticism comes from people that bet on the wrong horse. :rolleyes:

Bill Hunts "advice to the BDA" article sums up what needs to be done and I agree with his assessment.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa152.html#advice

I think a lot of criticism comes from people that bet on the wrong horse. :rolleyes:

Absolutely true. We all know how those predictions played out :D

From Best Buy . . the largest seller of HD movies on disc:

No Country For Old Men:

DVD - $15.99

BD - $29.99

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp;jsessionid=N4JALFTDSP5BPKC4D3LFAGQ?_dyncharset=I SO-8859-1&id=pcat17071&type=page&st=No+country+for+old+men&sc=movieSP&cp=1&nrp=15&sp=&qp=&list=n&iht=y&usc=Movies&ks=960

There's a coupon going round - go to a Wal-Mart with self checkout and you can get the NCfOM BD for under $17.

You'll thank me later.

There's a coupon going round - go to a Wal-Mart with self checkout and you can get the NCfOM BD for under $17.

You'll thank me later.

Link or PM? I'd love to buy it at that price :D

If you've got a good price on ID4 as well that would be sweet:cool:

Thanks in advance Grubert :)

I think a lot of criticism comes from people that bet on the wrong horse. :rolleyes:

Bill Hunts "advice to the BDA" article sums up what needs to be done and I agree with his assessment.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa152.html#advice

THOUGH I agree with hunt, but all those items he mentioned were in HDDVD now that there is one format BD needs to get their butt in gear and do what Hunt said, but in all honesty if transformers is already out on HDDVD and selling for 10 bucks and some folks can get a HDDVD player for 70 dollars now whats the point of double dipping on blu ray transformers when the quality is just as good VC1 encoding, lossless whatever, etc...I picked on transformers becuase it was a top seller in HDDVD camp and a good PQ.

Link or PM? I'd love to buy it at that price :D

If you've got a good price on ID4 as well that would be sweet:cool:

Thanks in advance Grubert :)

my walarmt(s) have new released for 14.99 as for no country for old men thats a NEW release thats 14.99 NOW in 2 walmarts I been to all pricing should be the same in all walmarts for new release after the first week it goes back up to 19.99. blu ray is what 24.99 (if you can find the deal), but usally at my walmarts 29.99

Link or PM? I'd love to buy it at that price :D

Print and enjoy. (http://i30.tinypic.com/19t6jl.png)

If you've got a good price on ID4 as well that would be sweet:cool:

Not for ID4, but there is one for Dan in Real Life (http://i32.tinypic.com/wt86tf.png).

Thanks in advance Grubert :)

My pleasure. :D

For instance, let's look at a prominent upcoming day-and-date title: Warner's I Am Legend. You have the following options:


Edition Video Audio Extras MSRP amazon
Single-disc DVD 480i Lossy Scarce $28.98 $16.99
Two-disc SE DVD 480i Lossy Lots $34.99 $22.99
Blu-ray 1080p Lossless Lots $35.99 $24.95



So for $1 MSRP ($2 amazon) over the special edition, you get a release with the same extras, and hidef video and audio. Is that unreasonable?

But.... how well do SE DVD's sell vs the single disc version? I rarely ever buy anything other than the single disc version unless there is some compelling reason to. So... realistically, to the average consumer, they are looking at $25 for the blu vs $17 for the DVD.

So... realistically, to the average consumer, they are looking at $25 for the blu vs $17 for the DVD.

that and they are not gonna spend an extra 400 dollars for the blu ray player to watch legend when they have (99% chance here) a dvd player at home that maybe (50% chance guess here) has HDMI outputs and upconverts it :D

From Best Buy . . the largest seller of HD movies on disc:

No Country For Old Men:

DVD - $15.99

BD - $29.99


Lee, no offense, NCFOM would have been $30 on HD DVD. I paid $24 via amazon. I think it is $24 @ Wal Mart.

I agree price does need to come down, but software was expensive on both sides of the fence.

No more awkward than enthusiasts playing corporate cheerleader. But seriously, no ones trying to "undermine" anything, they're writing articles and asking questions, just another day at the office.

Yeah, from somebody with the following mission statement:

The *** is a place where those who enjoy watching movies in their homes can discuss all aspects of (re-)presenting films the best way they can. These discussions concern the film art itself, its products as well as the technical ways to create a theater-like experience inside a home.

We the members of the *** are interested in the film product to be recorded and reproduced as closely as possible to the way the original creator(s) of that particular film intended. We respect the integrity of all artists involved in creating the original film as well as those who helped bringing the product to a form suited to be used in a home theater environment.

The main goals of the discussions on the *** are to learn and to share: to learn more about the cinematographic art-form and the best techniques to present the films, and to share our knowledge with anyone who sincerely wants to benefit from the knowledge of his or her fellow members.

[...]

We strive for the highest achievable quality (video and sound) to be recorded on DVD, to be sold and/or rented in a form free for consumers to use in their homes. We want to advance films to be represented as complete as possible and with their full image, as intended by the original creators, intact. We want the best soundstage obtainable in a homely environment.

[...]


saying 'OMG Blu-ray is too expensive and may probably die!!1!' (I paraphrase) is perfectly consistent.

Of course A/V enthusiasts are going to take Blu-Ray to task on its shortcomings. I don’t understand why we’re expected to be satisfied with multiple player profiles, $35 srps, bare bones discs, and lossy audio formats. I’m not comparing it to HD DVD, I’m comparing it to DVD. Only enthusiasts are going to buy into Blu-Ray because of it’s technical superiority alone. The rest of world needs to be sold on its value, and so far, it’s not a better value than DVD. We all want a bigger BR movie catalog to choose from, right? That’s where the criticism is coming from, not sour grapes.

Of course A/V enthusiasts are going to take Blu-Ray to task on its shortcomings. I don’t understand why we’re expected to be satisfied with multiple player profiles, $35 srps, bare bones discs, and lossy audio formats. I’m not comparing it to HD DVD, I’m comparing it to DVD. Only enthusiasts are going to buy into Blu-Ray because of it’s technical superiority alone. The rest of world needs to be sold on its value, and so far, it’s not a better value than DVD. We all want a bigger BR movie catalog to choose from, right? That’s where the criticism is coming from, not sour grapes.

Do you not see a difference between writing:

If Blu-ray can offer creative features and a quality viewing experience at a reasonable price, it has a shot, but it must move fast since there is only a brief window to succeed thanks to the hovering threat of cheap high-definition Web downloads.

For now the format’s future is still uncertain. Any wrong step could still see it consigned to the scrap heap of dead formats.

...and writing:

We have some suggestions to all the Blu-ray Disc studios and manufacturers as to how best to make Blu-ray an easy choice for consumers going forward.

This latest line came from none other than Bill Hunt: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa152.html#advice

OK, so all the early adoptors (like me) and the people at blu-ray.com want Blu-ray to succeed.

We will just have to wait and see if the masses really want HDM. They passed on DVD-A and SACD, but love HDTV (mostly sports). The question will be, is it worth it to replace most of your current DVD collection and all of your DVD players? My bet is that some will buy one Blu-ray player for their main TV watching room, and a handful of discs, and keep the rest of their DVD players and DVD collection. As upconverting tech gets better, they will go with that.

Part of the problem is Sony, Samsung and Pannasonic. They market "full 1080" SD DVD players that look just like their blu players.

Bill's piece is constructive, where this guy is just skeptical. I certainly prefer a positive take, but I think both are valid viewpoints.

For instance, let's look at a prominent upcoming day-and-date title: Warner's I Am Legend. You have the following options:


Edition Video Audio Extras MSRP amazon
Single-disc DVD 480i Lossy Scarce $28.98 $16.99
Two-disc SE DVD 480i Lossy Lots $34.99 $22.99
Blu-ray 1080p Lossless Lots $35.99 $24.95



So for $1 MSRP ($2 amazon) over the special edition, you get a release with the same extras, and hidef video and audio. Is that unreasonable?

Well, for brand new stuff you have somewhat of a resonable point. However, it gets REALLY focking ugly with catalog titles and with all of the garbage coming out(10,000 BC, I Am Legend) it makes many of us want catalog titles even more. Lets take a look at the problems with catalog titles:


Many of the great catalog titles are NOT available...period. Sucks.
The ones that are available are STILL $18-$25 bucks and the DVD is down to like $5 bucks. HUGE disparity there.
Catalog title quality is still shaky and therefore the blu-ray upgrade in some cases barely beats out the SD DVD version. Thats a problem.


So, we'll see how it goes. Your pricing "chart" might work a few select brand-new titles but it certainly does NOT work when looking at the overall picture which clearly shows that BD is WAY more expensive than SD DVD. And dont forget all the gear you have to buy to really enjoy HD media, like a BIG TV, HD player, and audio/speakers.

this is shaping up to be a bad year for hdm enthusiasts. not just for hd dvd only people but also for format neutral people and new people who are considering getting into bd.

universal/paramount will probably mostly reissue things they already released on hd dvd and jack the prices back up. (any reissue is taking the spot in production that could have been used for something new).

some of the "new" bd content will be reissues with new special features (example the new avp that is coming from fox).

warner will finally put out bd versions of the content that they already released on hd dvd.

the free disc deals have mostly gone away. player prices might be back where they were (for bd) by the end of the year.

is that gloom and doom or just reality?

imo the only people who might have a rosey view in the short term are bd only consumers that wanted hd dvd exclusive titles on bd and are willing to pay 2x the price to get them.

after the dust all settles... maybe having one format will payoff. but that is not proven. maybe we will just end up with an expensive niche product.

the bda killed off hd dvd with aggressive pricing and studio support. it doesn't look like they are willing to do that for bd vs. dvd. looks like they now want consumers to do the work for them.

Lee, no offense, NCFOM would have been $30 on HD DVD. I paid $24 via amazon. I think it is $24 @ Wal Mart.

I agree price does need to come down, but software was expensive on both sides of the fence.

One thing with DVD, the prices drop much faster after a month or so after it was released.

...Angelo

Well, for brand new stuff you have somewhat of a resonable point. However, it gets REALLY focking ugly with catalog titles and with all of the garbage coming out(10,000 BC, I Am Legend) it makes many of us want catalog titles even more. Lets take a look at the problems with catalog titles:


Many of the great catalog titles are NOT available...period. Sucks.
The ones that are available are STILL $18-$25 bucks and the DVD is down to like $5 bucks. HUGE disparity there.
Catalog title quality is still shaky and therefore the blu-ray upgrade in some cases barely beats out the SD DVD version. Thats a problem.


So, we'll see how it goes. Your pricing "chart" might work a few select brand-new titles but it certainly does NOT work when looking at the overall picture which clearly shows that BD is WAY more expensive than SD DVD. And dont forget all the gear you have to buy to really enjoy HD media, like a BIG TV, HD player, and audio/speakers.

When there are blu ray titles that no one wants that have been sitting in warehouses and on shelves for 5+ years you'll see $5 bargain bins for them too...

I see you follow HTF's stance:



Read then what dvdfile says:



For instance, let's look at a prominent upcoming day-and-date title: Warner's I Am Legend. You have the following options:


Edition Video Audio Extras MSRP amazon
Single-disc DVD 480i Lossy Scarce $28.98 $16.99
Two-disc SE DVD 480i Lossy Lots $34.99 $22.99
Blu-ray 1080p Lossless Lots $35.99 $24.95



So for $1 MSRP ($2 amazon) over the special edition, you get a release with the same extras, and hidef video and audio. Is that unreasonable?

Yes but what are the barbone BD disc for 18$ that should compete with the single-disc DVD. An overpriced DVD doesnt take away that HDMs are overpriced. (OK that price wouldnt be overpriced over here...)

Also the DVD isnt really 480i. Its encoded 480/23,976P with flags.

I remember when VHS used to cost $60, and if you were lucky you could find a great two-pack for just over $100.

Asking how BD will defeat DVD is missing the point entirely, it's like asking how the PS3 is going to beat PS2. Studios ARE going to phase out DVD in the coming years, it's a fact. Even though PS2 had a base of 100million units, PS3 was still released and PS2 games are being weened away.

I remember when VHS used to cost $60, and if you were lucky you could find a great two-pack for just over $100.

Asking how BD will defeat DVD is missing the point entirely, it's like asking how the PS3 is going to beat PS2. Studios ARE going to phase out DVD in the coming years, it's a fact. Even though PS2 had a base of 100million units, PS3 was still released and PS2 games are being weened away.

Exactly! And to the people questioning why studios charge so much for HDM, if they didn't do that, what'd be the point of all this? Otherwise why not stick with DVD then? :confused:

The question will be, is it worth it to replace most of your current DVD collection and all of your DVD players?

Why would they replace their collection? Some key titles, maybe. But I'm not going to replace everything. I'm taking a "point forward" attitude, buying new titles on Blu-ray as they are released, some catalog I don't have or do want to replace, and just keep everything else. It's not like this is an incompatible format with DVD in that I need a separate machine to play it. I can still pop a standard DVD into a BD player.

This is how BD is eventually going to take over DVD. As software prices drop -- and they need to, and they will -- people will simply pick up the BD of new releases instead of the DVD.

player prices might be back where they were (for bd) by the end of the year.

You're obviously paying no attention whatsoever to where BD SA player prices are right now and where they're headed with new models to be released later this year. I mean, really. Do a little bit of research in the Blu-ray player forum before making such an absurd statement.

Studios ARE going to phase out DVD in the coming years, it's a fact.

???

DVD is their "cash cow" why would they phase it out? The Studios will phase out DVD when there is no more money to be made on it. With how entrenched DVD has become, a phase out is a long way off.

Blu-ray offers very little practical improvement over DVD for the average consumer.

The irony of that statement is that the "average consumer" would probably never buy their magazine.

The irony of that statement is that the "average consumer" would probably never buy their magazine.

Nor is it intended for them, not much irony to found there.

???

DVD is their "cash cow" why would they phase it out? The Studios will phase out DVD when there is no more money to be made on it. With how entrenched DVD has become, a phase out is a long way off.

Wrong. They'll phase out DVD if they think its deterring adoption of High def. This is pretty basic marketing and product life-cycle stuff.:confused:

Wrong. They'll phase out DVD if they think its deterring adoption of High def. This is pretty basic marketing and product life-cycle stuff.:confused:

Yes, resell the same catalog (and recent movies) all over again, at a premium for the extra quality.

Exactly! And to the people questioning why studios charge so much for HDM, if they didn't do that, what'd be the point of all this? Otherwise why not stick with DVD then?

Yes, resell the same catalog (and recent movies) all over again, at a premium for the extra quality.

And of course no one is going to force the customer to repurchase a movie they already have on DVD. The option is certainly available, though. This is a good thing. :)

Wrong. They'll phase out DVD if they think its deterring adoption of High def. This is pretty basic marketing and product life-cycle stuff.:confused:

They just want to sell discs. HD or SD it does not matter. If they can get people to buy the 3 disc Titanium edition on SD they will. If it turns out they can make more from downloads, they will do that too.

Right now the average guy goes to the store and sees Sony and Pannasonic Blu players that need new discs and have 1080p output.

He also sees Sony and Pannasonic players that work with all his current discs and output 1080p... for 1/3rd the price.:eek:

Guess which one he picks 4 out of 5 times?

Blu-ray 1080p Lossless Lots
Amazon USA Price: $24.95

Amazon UK Price: $36.01

and not released until 21 April 2008.
And that's all I have to say about that :rolleyes:

Wrong. They'll phase out DVD if they think its deterring adoption of High def. This is pretty basic marketing and product life-cycle stuff.:confused:

There's nothing basic about the marketing when a product is as entrenched as SD DVD. What do you propose is the mechanism for phasing out DVD? Why would studios value HD media if it can't deliver more revenue than DVD? Why sacrifice the dollars of DVD in order to promote HD?

Now, there is more money to be made for CE manufacturers, but it's questionable how much studios will gain.

???

DVD is their "cash cow" why would they phase it out? The Studios will phase out DVD when there is no more money to be made on it. With how entrenched DVD has become, a phase out is a long way off.
Actually, it all depends on what type of new technology emerges. The vinyl LP was replaced virtually overnight by the CD. Sooner or later a technology will emerge that will eliminate just about everything you are now using for audio/video, just a matter of time. Nothing is forever.

And of course no one is going to force the customer to repurchase a movie they already have on DVD. The option is certainly available, though. This is a good thing. :)

It sure is, it generates money! That's what capitalism is all about. :)

People here are so focused (I'd say obsessed) with the now! When the "now" doesn't really matter. The "now" belongs to DVD, and there is nothing they can do about it.

The same old HD-DVD fans are advocating subsided prices for HDM (or smaller profit margins - which is as absurd :rolleyes:), don't know why studios should subsidize anything if the only intent of HDM is to make money. Or anyone here believes this whole thing's for the benefit of mankind? :rolleyes:

???

DVD is their "cash cow" why would they phase it out? The Studios will phase out DVD when there is no more money to be made on it. With how entrenched DVD has become, a phase out is a long way off.

Complete phase out yes, it will take years just like the transition from VHS to DVD. What will happen though is the majority of movies in say a Hollywood video will have been transitioned over to BD by the end of 2010 and that is not unrealistic. It is still early in 2008. We have 3 years of holiday seasons before the end of 2010, so there is plenty of time to make it happen with consumers purchasing BD players. DVD's will be like BD is now and how VHS became, relagated to less shelf space and then eventually done away with altogether say in five years.

IMO this is what the major retailers and video rentals are planning will happen.

Things happen very fast these days. While HD DVD may have been dead several months before they announced it, it sure seem to die quickly once the ball got rolling. Wasn't it over two weeks when the major retailers made announcements and by the end of the two weeks, we all knew it was over.

It is awkward to see enthusiast sites playing devil's advocate and trying to undermine hidef-on-disc now that the format war is over, considering that one of their declared goals is to increase awareness and adoption of high-quality home video and audio....
Not me.

I'm feeling better about the Blu-ray win everyday now. :D

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1006061

In theory yes, but it meant little in practice.

Not a lot worth importing and the cost and hassle were obstacles.

Many Blu-ray discs were in practice region free, and most Blu-ray titles that are region locked were newer day and date titles that would be available in all regions or at least North America anyway soon enough.

Potential advantage for HD DVD , that did not amount to much in the real world, and as its working out is not being abused by the Blu-ray studios.


I'm sorry, Kosty, but although Americans may not see region coding as a big deal (because you have all the films) we in Europe see it as big stupid thing. CDs do not have region coding. Books do not have region coding. Laserdiscs never had region coding (as far as I can remember). Why do we have to have it for movies?

The problem with DVD was a non-issue since free players were available for those who wanted one - something that seems to be impossible with Blu-ray.

I agree with you in all that you said about your previous fears. But I find it sad that movie lovers and collectors all around the globe won't be able to see all the movies they want (like if we posed any threat to Hollywood's distribution work flow). Brazilians and Koreans will be able to enjoy great American editions we Europeans will not.

Lee, no offense, NCFOM would have been $30 on HD DVD. I paid $24 via amazon. I think it is $24 @ Wal Mart.

I agree price does need to come down, but software was expensive on both sides of the fence.

Just an example of a popular movie coming out at the nations largest sell of HD movies . . . that's all.

Recent data from NPD Group:

1. The average DVD owner has 80 DVD's in their collection

2. Hollywood's DVD revenue is based on 65% DD and 35% Catalog.

Does this hold true for HDM? We would have to see the actual numbers of titles sold. Does David still post here at AVS? He has the data.

I was under the impression it was something like 80/20 for HDM revenue.

Look, there'd be very little reason for a movie studio to move to BD if there were no price premium for BD over SD DVD. I mean, why should they transition their production processes, create expensive interactive features and online content, etc. just to sell a product at the same price? Granted, there will be some re-buys, but people (for the most part) aren't going to go out and re-buy their entire SD DVD catalog, are they? So, there needs to be something in it for the studios, I think we can all agree that's the case. Most at issue here is probably how much is in it for studios. Should the MSRP (or commonly avaiilable via B&M) premium be $1/movie, $3/movie, $5/movie, $10/movie on an apples-to-apples basis? It seems like studios are thinking $10/movie and some believe it should be $1/movie. Probably somewhere in the middle. Personally (not speaking for folks here or the general public) I can see paying $3/movie premium for BD over SD DVD, after that (for me) . . . I'd really need to feel that the movie in question REALLY had something special to offer in HD that I wouldn't get by experiencing the (upscaled) SD version. To me, I think it is pretty clear that studios are trying to re-live the glory days of SD DVD (an order of magnitude leap over VHS on more than one front) for what is essentially the incremental improvement of BD.

C/E manufacturers have a bit more to gain, IMHO. With the death of SD DVD and the lack of a twin format solution (like the combo DVD HD DVD discs) on BD, if BD software takes hold and becomes dominant, C/E manufacturers will be able to re-sell almost 1:1 every DVD player they ever built with a BD player. Ok, so maybe not 1:1, maybe only 80% of machines and some will be attrition (i.e., my DVD player died so instead of replacing it with a DVD player I replace it with a BD player), but in my mind, I'm thinking that percentage is higher than the number of folks who'll re-buy BDs from the DVD collection. Even so, C/E equipment manufacturers (now that HD DVD is dead) ought to be able to repeat the golden age of DVD in terms of the product life cycle curve and pricing.

There's nothing basic about the marketing when a product is as entrenched as SD DVD. What do you propose is the mechanism for phasing out DVD? Why would studios value HD media if it can't deliver more revenue than DVD? Why sacrifice the dollars of DVD in order to promote HD?

Now, there is more money to be made for CE manufacturers, but it's questionable how much studios will gain.

Phasing out DVD is somewhat tricky, but easy if you know the tools at your disposal. The studios need to signal the public that Blu ray is the future, then the public will move and more importantly will want to move.

Studios gain from going Blu and phasing out DVD in many ways. 1, increased content protection, 2, being able to charge a premium for at least a little while, 3, BD live allows them to sell supplemental material over the internet to compatible players.

Studios want to keep SD DVD. They want to sell you a BD version, and then convince you that you will need and SD version for all your other players. Then they will turn around and offer a new Titanium version with new features.

I still say that the majority of DVD owners are happy and do not want to buy all new players and discs. My wife is a good example. Even though I have a ton of HD movies, she says she could care less and would be happy with the SD versions.

Studios gain from going Blu and phasing out DVD in many ways. 1, increased content protection, 2, being able to charge a premium for at least a little while, 3, BD live allows them to sell supplemental material over the internet to compatible players.

Like that wouldnt backfire.


Hey we have this new format, you have to replace your players and buy this new format that cost more.

When DVD goes it will go as VHS. When people stop buying the movies.

If I remembered correctly, Star wars Ep3 was the first big title that didnt make it to VHS. Thats gives some perspective.

Some people here still don't realize the fact that SD-DVDs aren't going anywhere because of BD unless millions and millions (and yet more millions) more SD-DVD player owning households obtains an HDTV. PPV and downloads have a better chance but that's still far fetched because there's a TON of SD-DVD content available.

larry

Studios want to keep SD DVD. They want to sell you a BD version, and then convince you that you will need and SD version for all your other players. Then they will turn around and offer a new Titanium version with new features.

I still say that the majority of DVD owners are happy and do not want to buy all new players and discs. My wife is a good example. Even though I have a ton of HD movies, she says she could care less and would be happy with the SD versions.

Exactly. Which is why all this talk of prices being too high for the average person is BS. Most people are satisfied with DVD at this point and wouldn't buy an HD player at any price point. That's not who these players are for at this point. They are for people who have a serious thing for AV quality and are willing to pay a premium.

It will be years down the line when HDTV saturation is at a peak and HD Media has had a chance to sink in and grab a little hold. Then people might say, "Hey, maybe I'll check out that Blu-Ray stuff now." That's just how new tech adoption works.

We're still only at like 30 percent for HDTV after a long time of selling them at retail stores and we can see how long it took for them to get rolling. But, I haven't heard any HDTV is going to die because TV's were thousands of dollars and still aren't in a majority of homes.

I should add that AVRs are not going to ever replace TV speakers (and cheap HTiBs)...but there will remain a strong niche for them.

I don't think Blu-ray will replace SD DVD, but thanks to us at AVS, there will be a strong niche for Blu-ray too!

We're still only at like 30 percent for HDTV after a long time of selling them at retail stores and we can see how long it took for them to get rolling. But, I haven't heard any HDTV is going to die because TV's were thousands of dollars and still aren't in a majority of homes.

And that 30% is based on a household having a single HDTV. They will have other TV's that are not HDTV's like for the kitchen, master bedroom, the kids room(s), etc.

If you include all these then HDTV is barely at 15% the penetration versus NTSC TV's.

There is zero chance of the studios abandoning DVD to go BD.. except maybe Sony, and even they would be foolish to do it.

The BDA could not pay the studios enough to abandon DVD for BD, which is what it would take to make something like that happen because the studios would be literally throwing away the majority of their business by going BD only.

Face it, HDM has a tough road ahead. Having two formats was not the thing holding back mass adoption.

Do you not see a difference between writing:

If Blu-ray can offer creative features and a quality viewing experience at a reasonable price, it has a shot, but it must move fast since there is only a brief window to succeed thanks to the hovering threat of cheap high-definition Web downloads.

For now the format’s future is still uncertain. Any wrong step could still see it consigned to the scrap heap of dead formats.

...and writing:



We have some suggestions to all the Blu-ray Disc studios and manufacturers as to how best to make Blu-ray an easy choice for consumers going forward.

This latest line came from none other than Bill Hunt:


I don't see any problems with the first one? Is mentioning pricing, extras, and the threat of Downloads now "against the rules"?

The second is a little too touchy feely for my taste. It sounds like he's walking a tight rope and trying not to offend someone. I don't know Bill Hunt though, but that's how that quote come across to me.

I don't get the "lets make sure we don't hurt the multi-billion dollar corporations feelings" mentality. They have no allegiance to me, why should I to them?

Do some of you honestly believe that the studios want to drag out DVD for another 10 years waiting for downloads to be ready? I will wager good money that HDTV will be a living room fixture in 80% or greater households sooner than download capable boxes like the Appletv. By Christmas we'll have a $200 player, then the Christmas after a $75 player. When will we have a download box that will be that cheap, much less a unified download standard?

Do some of you honestly believe that the studios want to drag out DVD for another 10 years waiting for downloads to be ready? I will wager good money that HDTV will be a living room fixture in 80% or greater households sooner than download capable boxes like the Appletv. By Christmas we'll have a $200 player, then the Christmas after a $75 player. When will we have a download box that will be that cheap, much less a unified download standard?

Who is waiting?

Nancy Drew goes to VOD, download same day as DVD
Bolstering its already aggressive video-on-demand strategy, Warner Bros. Digital Distribution today debuted an exclusive version of Nancy Drew to VOD, pay-per-view and download-to-own platforms the same day the film was released on DVD.

This digital edition, dubbed Nancy Drew: Drew’s Clues, will come enhanced with clues, trivia and behind-the-scenes info that pop up during the course of the film. For example, viewers can watch for highlighted clues in order to learn how the film’s star detective will solve the case. Pop-up details also reveal that Nancy Drew headliner Emma Roberts performed many of her own stunts.

Warner’s digital division developed the technology, dubbed ‘Movies That Pop.’ The studio has offered the Movies That Pop bonus feature for other digitally delivered films including its December 2005 release of Batman Begins for on demand and PPV.
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6540152.html

If they want BD to succed they should do more about the software pricing.

As long as DVD is cheaper, it is harder to motivate the avarage public in going to HDM.


The biggest problem is the studios. They want to relive the golden age of DVD.


PS

Whats best for my hometheater and whats best for my wallet, are two very different things ;)

I'm all for cheaper movies since I like more money in my pocket. But...

The reality is that for some of us, there are still some movies where some here would still pay just about anything to get in highdef.

We should contrast this against the days when our forefathers have to deal with film reels and a projector to have a home theatre, or even as recently as the early LD days when a choice movie can easily be a 3 digit expense.

I'm not saying I want movies to be more expensive, and I think the studios (fox, paramount, universal are you listening) are on the wrong point in the demand curve with their pricing to maximize revenue.

But the facts are that the movie pricing will move down as the installed base goes up, and some of that will happen as a natural order of things on promotions (similar to early DVD days).

I for one don't believe that the manufacturing costs and the aacs licenses alone (the variable or per unit costs) have a significant impact on the pricing we are seeing now. The price delta is more to do with what the studios believe they can make, but also realistically with having to deal with the lower volumes (to amortize the fixed costs and operational overhead [salaries]) today due to the lower installed base of players (compared to DVDs).

Nevertheless, the manufacturing costs will go down as volumes increase, though we are talking a few dimes here. What is missing is still the installed base has to go up.

Marketing has to go in at some point --- perhaps the summer, or perhaps as late as thanksgiving, but seeing enough people now (FINALLY!) seem convinced that they MUST buy $1000+ HDTVs, the marketing of the movie player to feed the HDTV is not that difficult if the right people are given the task.

this is shaping up to be a bad year for hdm enthusiasts. not just for hd dvd only people but also for format neutral people and new people who are considering getting into bd.

Don't know about the rest of the year, but so far the last six months have been GREAT for HDM for me.

I got a bunch of Blu discs and a Player for a song, a bunch of Blu and HD DVD BOGOs, three new HD DVD players, and in the last few weeks a whole boatload of HD DVD discs at DVD bargain bin pricing. The only thing I have not gotten in a few months are any new Blu discs. The pricing is just not compelling.

If I continue to watch movies at my present rate, I will not need any new titles for two years.

The problem isn't that there is only 30% HDTV adoption. it's that only 50% (or less) of HDTV owners even CARE about the extra resolution. It's wide screen - it's flat - it hangs on the wall - - it's cool!

I suggested that a neighbor pay $5 a month more for the HD from Time Warner - to make his HD set look even better. That was over a year ago - hasn't done it yet! This is the response I see so many places. The majority of people will not pay a penny more for HD! They just don't care!

If I have a BR player in the family room, and DVD players in the bedroom, kitchen, and automobile, I still might just buy a DVD since I can play it everywhere. In fact, I might not even have a BR player, since I could care less about resolution, and that's the ONLY real attraction for HD discs. (That's the majority out there speaking.)

It's going to be really tough for Warner to turn off DVD while so many are still using it.

Before anyone compares this to VHS - DVD, the DVD had many advantages that everyone could see (durability, size, no rewind). For BR, the only real advantage is resolution.

I can't see studios turning off DVD while it still has 50% of the market - and I can't see BR ever being bigger than DVD. SOMETHING else will replace both first!

Dave

This is why Blu-ray will have a tough time going forward:

Overheard November 25, 2008 at a Wal-mart in Anytown, USA

Joe 6-pack: I've heard about these new Blu-ray movies. What's that all about?
Wal-mart salesdrone: Blu-ray is the next generation of DVD. It lets you watch the movie in High Definition.
J6P: Oh, I just bought a nice plasma TV, so I can watch this, right?
WM: Well do you have a Blu-ray player?
J6P: What's that?
WM: You need it to play Blu-ray movies.
J6P: Well, I already have a High Def DVD player...
WM: No, this is different, this is true High Def. Your DVD player only fakes the high-def signal.
J6P: So how much does this Blu-ray player cost?
WM: Well we have this Sony model on sale for $300
J6P: That's a lot of money...
WM: But it's High Definition. Have you seen High Definition? It looks amazing.
J6P: Yes, I have an HDTV (note: though he hasn't hooked it up to an HD source.)
WM: Well there you go then.
J6P: Anyway, me and the boys are going to visit their grandma upstate for Thanksgiving. Will I be able to play this in the minivan?
WM: Does your minivan have a Blu-ray player?
J6P: No... why, do I need one?
WM: Yes, you need a Blu-ray player wherever you want to play these movies.
J6P: So I can't watch this in my bedroom, or on my laptop unless they have Blu-ray
WM: Yes.
J6P's wife: Honey, don't bother with that, we can get it later. Let's go.
J6P: OK, dear.
J6P's kids: Yay!
That conversation (or variations thereof) will take place in Wal-marts all over the country this Christmas (and beyond.)

Don't know about the rest of the year, but so far the last six months have been GREAT for HDM for me.

I got a bunch of Blu discs and a Player for a song, a bunch of Blu and HD DVD BOGOs, three new HD DVD players, and in the last few weeks a whole boatload of HD DVD discs at DVD bargain bin pricing. The only thing I have not gotten in a few months are any new Blu discs. The pricing is just not compelling.

If I continue to watch movies at my present rate, I will not need any new titles for two years.

true. maybe i am mostly sad because the party is over.

i built a huge library of bd and hd dvd. still living off the hd dvd carcass. :eek:

ahhh the good ol' days of bogo after bogo....

Some people here still don't realize the fact that SD-DVDs aren't going anywhere because of BD unless millions and millions (and yet more millions) more SD-DVD player owning households obtains an HDTV. PPV and downloads have a better chance but that's still far fetched because there's a TON of SD-DVD content available.

larry


For now. 2-3 years from now. different story and that is the real point is it not?

There is zero chance of the studios abandoning DVD to go BD.. except maybe Sony, and even they would be foolish to do it.

The BDA could not pay the studios enough to abandon DVD for BD, which is what it would take to make something like that happen because the studios would be literally throwing away the majority of their business by going BD only.

Face it, HDM has a tough road ahead. Having two formats was not the thing holding back mass adoption.

Same here. Based on the now. 2-3 years from now it will be different and that is the point.

This is why Blu-ray will have a tough time going forward:

That conversation (or variations thereof) will take place in Wal-marts all over the country this Christmas (and beyond.)


BS. For every supposed story like that many other members and myself can come up with one to negate it.

Originally Posted by oliverjg
this is shaping up to be a bad year for hdm enthusiasts. not just for hd dvd only people but also for format neutral people and new people who are considering getting into bd.

I own both and I've been have a great year watching movies. Just watched 30 Days of Night last night, very enjoyable moview with great PQ and the audio is stunning. Night before that was Superbad, another great transfer. Tonight ID4 :D

I absolutely love blu-ray movies, they are giving me the best movie experience in my home bar none. :D I honestly can't keep up with all the titles right now and still have a back log to watch.

The problem isn't that there is only 30% HDTV adoption. it's that only 50% (or less) of HDTV owners even CARE about the extra resolution. It's wide screen - it's flat - it hangs on the wall - - it's cool!

I suggested that a neighbor pay $5 a month more for the HD from Time Warner - to make his HD set look even better. That was over a year ago - hasn't done it yet! This is the response I see so many places. The majority of people will not pay a penny more for HD! They just don't care!

If I have a BR player in the family room, and DVD players in the bedroom, kitchen, and automobile, I still might just buy a DVD since I can play it everywhere. In fact, I might not even have a BR player, since I could care less about resolution, and that's the ONLY real attraction for HD discs. (That's the majority out there speaking.)

It's going to be really tough for Warner to turn off DVD while so many are still using it.

Before anyone compares this to VHS - DVD, the DVD had many advantages that everyone could see (durability, size, no rewind). For BR, the only real advantage is resolution.

I can't see studios turning off DVD while it still has 50% of the market - and I can't see BR ever being bigger than DVD. SOMETHING else will replace both first!

Dave

Well currently they(HDM) have about 1.5% of revenues in 07. Which means it is probably less in unit shipments. DVD isnt going anywhere soon.

Same here. Based on the now. 2-3 years from now it will be different and that is the point.

You're being too optimistic. 2-3 years from now I and millions of Americans will still have multiple DVD players. These players will provide a market that studios would be crazy not to sell to. Hollywood is going to have a tough time striking gold again.

Well currently they(HDM) have about 1.5% of revenues in 07. Which means it is probably less in unit shipments. DVD isnt going anywhere soon.

Last year they had 0.59% unit volume.

...That conversation (or variations thereof) will take place in Wal-marts all over the country this Christmas (and beyond.)

Alternately, the following conversation is just as likely:

J6P: Is it true I can play br on my ps3?
WM: Yes.
J6P: Cool! Do you have Transformers (2,3,4,...) on blu, here?
WM: Yes, right on that shelf. [points to shelf]
J6P: Thanks! Next stop...Disneyland! :)

Here are the final numbers for DVD for 2007 (sales and rentals) - call it $23 billion:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/2007YearEndOverall-Small.jpg

I have heard two different numbers quoted for HDM. The first one was $750 million. Now I have read it jumped to $1.1 billion (which personally I do not believe). But IF that 1.1 billion (call it an even billion) . . . that is still 1/23 in comparison to DVD revenue . . . less than 5%.

I own both and I've been have a great year watching movies. Just watched 30 Days of Night last night, very enjoyable moview with great PQ and the audio is stunning. Night before that was Superbad, another great transfer. Tonight ID4 :D

I absolutely love blu-ray movies, they are giving me the best movie experience in my home bar none. :D I honestly can't keep up with all the titles right now and still have a back log to watch.

i have 60+ bd and 100s of hd dvd. it has been a great year.

plus i have a new projector and new 2.35:1 setup. :D

i watched planet of the apes last night (:confused:) beowolf the night before (:D).

lots of hd dvd stuff canceled in the last couple of months and replaced with....nothing. that sucks.

they need to release Bridge on the River Kwai and i will be happy for the rest of the year.

Well, one would hope Uni and Paramount start announcing blu-ray titles and River Kwai for you :)

What's wrong with Planet of the Apes? I've read the PQ is pretty good and the audio excellent? Or did you just not like the film? I'm referring to the new one, I enjoyed it in the theaters but haven't grabbed it yet as there are too many others I want to get to firts.

Well, one would hope Uni and Paramount start announcing blu-ray titles and River Kwai for you :)

What's wrong with Planet of the Apes? I've read the PQ is pretty good and the audio excellent? Or did you just not like the film? I'm referring to the new one, I enjoyed it in the theaters but haven't grabbed it yet as there are too many others I want to get to firts.

i think river kwai will come from sony?

the thing about uni and paramount is they will probably just retread a lot of hd dvd releases i already have.

look at planet of the apes review on hidefdigest. i had the same reaction to the picture. their reviewer can explain it better then i can. i am looking at it on a 120" 2.35:1 screen with panny ae2000u projector.

i think river kwai will come from sony?

the thing about uni and paramount is they will probably just retread a lot of hd dvd releases i already have.

look at planet of the apes review on hidefdigest. i had the same reaction to the picture. their reviewer can explain it better then i can. i am looking at it on a 120" 2.35:1 screen with panny ae2000u projector.

Well time will tell, hopefully not just all double dips. Honestly with how poorly some of the catalog's have sold I wonder if they will all the previously HD DVD releases will hit blu any time soon.

Thanks, I'll check out the HDD review.

You have the same projector I chose (with the help of AVS) for my best friends family, that bad boy is awesome! I'm only on 60" 120hz set but I love it:cool: I'd love a projector as well but not really ideal for my situation. One day..

Well time will tell, hopefully not just all double dips. Honestly with how poorly some of the catalog's have sold I wonder if they will all the previously HD DVD releases will hit blu any time soon.

Thanks, I'll check out the HDD review.

You have the same projector I chose (with the help of AVS) for my best friends family, that bad boy is awesome! I'm only on 60" 120hz set but I love it:cool: I'd love a projector as well but not really ideal for my situation. One day..


i grabbed a bunch of the catalog titles. it is unclear with the poor sales if some will ever be reissued (at least it might take several years) . i wouldn't pick titles that did poorly to release for bd any time soon.

i expect retreads of american gangster, bourne, beowolf, transformers, shrek III, king kong, batman begins, matrix trilogy,.... they will want to put out titles that they expect to make money on without investing a lot of added time/$. my guess would be few/no new catalog releases... just retreads of big titles and day/date.

i think river kwai will come from sony?

Yes - Columbia was the studio. Lawrence of Arabia was "announced" at the same time . . same studio.

the thing about uni and paramount is they will probably just retread a lot of hd dvd releases i already have.

Well they have to re-author all the HDi movies to BD-J. No porting over - have to start from scratch. The video and audio encodes? Yes - they could port those over.

It is awkward to see enthusiast sites playing devil's advocate and trying to undermine hidef-on-disc now that the format war is over, considering that one of their declared goals is to increase awareness and adoption of high-quality home video and audio.

If you had shown the entire article, it went on to state the following;

If the studios are smart, they will focus on the value proposition by expanding the format’s largely untapped potential as a fully interactive experience, while reducing prices to lure new buyers. Likewise, Blu-ray player manufacturers must begin reducing hardware prices.

Seems reasonable to me...after all, HD DVD had a leg up in this department all along. If any Blu-Ray supporters ever watched a fully interactive HD DVD title like The Kingdom, Bourne Ultimatum, 300, etc, they would have seen the true potential of hi-def. Sadly, Blu-Ray is still behind in these features as well as advanced menu capabilities. In fact, HD DVD also had the benefit of the Combo disc. While lambasted on this forum by several folks (mainly due to the increased cost), this format was capable of playing in hi-def on an HD DVD player and also in SD on any DVD player. Look at what Fox is now doing with Hitman, enclosing a DVD of the film in the box along with the BD disc. Does anybody still think the Combo idea was ridiculous?

I don't think it's wrong to be skeptical of Blu-Ray dominating DVD -- it certainly is not a forgone conclusion. In 2007 both HD formats combined accounted for just above one-half of 1% of home video sales volume! That is truly pathetic. I think BD sales will increase greatly in 2008, but I also believe it will remain a niche format for a long, long time -- possibly never gaining mainstream acceptance the way that DVD has. I base these observations on a few reasons:

1) Price. Much higher than DVD in hardware and software. And this fact will continue to be true for several years. We've already seen the effects of HD DVD's demise. Rather than continue being aggressive, the BDA has taken the stance of ceasing BOGO sales and charging a premium on hardware. Gone are the "free discs with player" promos, the constant BOGO's, and the heavily-discounted players which were so prevalent recently.

2) The end of physical formats. Much as I love owning my movies and will always do so, there's a growing number of alternatives that have even been threatening DVD sales of late. Video downloads are always mentioned, but there's also the threat of HD Tivo, HD DVR's, HD premium channels like HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, etc. While the HD quality of these outlets can't compare to Blu-Ray (or HD DVD, for that matter), the vast majority of folks are quite content with HD content from these sources.

3) General apathy. HDTV's are currently in about 30% of US households. Of this pool of consumers, many are satisfied with SD DVD and HD channels via cable of satellite (hell, many folks with HDTV's don't even subscribe to an HD package yet think they're actually watching HD).

4) Bored with video collections. Of course this is pure speculation, but I also believe there are an increasing number of people who are tired of building collections. DVD was so affordable that many people who hadn't previously collected movies found themselves buying many films. $5 - $10 discs were purchased as impulse buys simply due to their low price. Then people found they weren't even watching these movies. I believe these folks have been burnt-out on video collections.

Though I'm not a big fan of Bill Hunt due to his "fanboyism" that permeated every HD post for the past 12 months, I agree with his recent observations. Blu-Ray needs to continue lowering costs NOW! They need to get fully functional players in the market ASAP, as the PS3 shouldn't be the only alternative for a future-proofed player. And the players must breach the $200 barrier by the 4th quarter or they will waste the holiday season's potential. Offering an SD DVD version with the disc (like Hitman) is a good idea in converting SD households.

And finally, THEY NEED THE HEAVY-HITTERS RELEASED ON THE FORMAT! Lucas and Spielberg probably won't allow Star Wars and ET for a long time, but where the hell are Lord Of the Rings, Titanic, Back To the Future, Beauty and the Beast, Cinderella, Jaws, Raiders Of the Lost Ark, Psycho, Gone With the Wind, Alien, Aliens, The Abyss, True Lies, James Bond, The Godfather, Chinatown, Marathon Man, Toy Story, Dances With Wolves, American Beauty, Raging Bull, Gladiator, Braveheart? People need a reason to buy into a new format, and the pathetic offerings on Blu-Ray aren't too tempting.

Yes - Columbia was the studio. Lawrence of Arabia was "announced" at the same time . . same studio.



Well they have to re-author all the HDi movies to BD-J. No porting over - have to start from scratch. The video and audio encodes? Yes - they could port those over.

not quite from scratch. there are artistic design decisions and "resources" (bitmaps, audio clips, etc.) that can be reused.

i recall info. from a paramount source... they used hd dvd HDi to get a design working for a title and then replicated the design in bd.

paramount shouldn't have too much trouble getting their stuff going. universal?

You're being too optimistic. 2-3 years from now I and millions of Americans will still have multiple DVD players. These players will provide a market that studios would be crazy not to sell to. Hollywood is going to have a tough time striking gold again.

So you and other forum members know something the industry and retailers don't know?

They are already transitioning EXACTLY like VHS to DVD in their stores, but that didn't happen overnight with DVD and will take over the next 2-4 years with BD.

Call some corp. headquarters and ask the customer service reps what they are told what is happening and what is going to happen.

I can assure you when I have called and what I have been told and in reality what is happening is not what many think.

And...for those who think they won't come out with some new titles on DVD, think again. We have had a great example last year of studios only releasing in the format they supported. That left a lot of us out in the cold, but we dealt with it and they survived. When there were many good movies on HD DVD that I didn't watch because I supported BD, I watched them on DVD or not at all. Now we have all studios going to behind one format, BD. If they choose to release a blockbuster hit with more backing for BD or release the DVD a month after the BD what do you think is going to start happening.

If they choose to release a blockbuster hit with more backing for BD or release the DVD a month after the BD what do you think is going to start happening.

Whoever makes that decision will be fired. That is what will happen. Seriously. Who would consider crippling a product that is over 90% of the market?

I see you follow HTF's stance:



Read then what dvdfile says:



For instance, let's look at a prominent upcoming day-and-date title: Warner's I Am Legend. You have the following options:


Edition Video Audio Extras MSRP amazon
Single-disc DVD 480i Lossy Scarce $28.98 $16.99
Two-disc SE DVD 480i Lossy Lots $34.99 $22.99
Blu-ray 1080p Lossless Lots $35.99 $24.95



So for $1 MSRP ($2 amazon) over the special edition, you get a release with the same extras, and hidef video and audio. Is that unreasonable?

And in the wonderful land of Australia:
EzyDVD (http://www.ezydvd.com.au/mech/quicksearch.zml?f=title&q=I+am+legend&x=0&y=0)

I Am Legend DVD $29.83
I Am Legend Blu-ray $42.83

Here are the final numbers for DVD for 2007 (sales and rentals) - call it $23 billion:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/2007YearEndOverall-Small.jpg

I have heard two different numbers quoted for HDM. The first one was $750 million. Now I have read it jumped to $1.1 billion (which personally I do not believe). But IF that 1.1 billion (call it an even billion) . . . that is still 1/23 in comparison to DVD revenue . . . less than 5%.

1. Revenue != Profit
2. DVD sales are declining

I'm not sure what the margins are on $5.00 DVDs, but I'd be willing to bet studios have more than a little interest in moving toward a more expensive higher margin product which has the added benefit of being more difficult to pirate.

BOGOs!!!!!

BOGOs!!!!!

+1

LOL :D

I'm really disappointed at all the negative talk about Blu-ray by many on this forum now that it is the standard High Def disc format. I mean this forum is full of Audio and Video Enthusiast. Blu-ray is the ultimate audio and video quality out there on the market. The war is over. DVD is on the decline and HDM is on the rise. The HDM market is locked into the growth of HDTVs. Each format take time to gain mass market adoption and some formats do not need mass market adoption to be successful(LaserDisc). If some of you are happy with upscaling DVDs then fine but don't for one second think that it provides the superior video and audio over Blu-ray.

BOGOs!!!!!

Even so, the margins could still be better than for $5 DVD (especially those just sitting in the bargain bin racks that weren't perviously sold) on a sliding scale approaching parity at the more normal $12'ish DVD price.


I'm really disappointed at all the negative talk about Blu-ray by many on this forum now that it is the standard High Def disc format. I mean this forum is full of Audio and Video Enthusiast.

As mentioned page1, comes back to those who backed the wrong horse... Ces la vie...

Some people around here are still trying to bring a dead horse back to life. Sad really. :o

The problem isn't that there is only 30% HDTV adoption. it's that only 50% (or less) of HDTV owners even CARE about the extra resolution. It's wide screen - it's flat - it hangs on the wall - - it's cool!

I suggested that a neighbor pay $5 a month more for the HD from Time Warner - to make his HD set look even better. That was over a year ago - hasn't done it yet! This is the response I see so many places. The majority of people will not pay a penny more for HD! They just don't care!

If I have a BR player in the family room, and DVD players in the bedroom, kitchen, and automobile, I still might just buy a DVD since I can play it everywhere. In fact, I might not even have a BR player, since I could care less about resolution, and that's the ONLY real attraction for HD discs. (That's the majority out there speaking.)

It's going to be really tough for Warner to turn off DVD while so many are still using it.

Before anyone compares this to VHS - DVD, the DVD had many advantages that everyone could see (durability, size, no rewind). For BR, the only real advantage is resolution.

I can't see studios turning off DVD while it still has 50% of the market - and I can't see BR ever being bigger than DVD. SOMETHING else will replace both first!

Dave

Studios will and can start to shut down DVD sooner then you think. Remember one of the big reasons studios are in this are to make money and Dvd prices are priced like commodities and the profit margins are shrinking. The shutoff will be gradual. Once you factor out DVD rentals I think you will find Blu-ray as a sell through medium will do quite well in relation to DVD in time. 50 percent of a market is fine but only if their is enough profit in it.

I am one of those who thinks that HDM needs to come down in price to get J6P to begin to adopt the format. While it is true that you can purchase at a discount through Amazon and other online retailers, B&M stores still are the main outlet for J6P to make his purchases.
Best Buy is known for charging MSRP for their HDM titles and offering no discounts for day and date releases. Fox titles are typically $34.99-$39.99 and most others range from $24.99-$34.99 with the average being somewhere close to $30. When someone can get the DVD title of the same prouduct for as low as $14.99-$16.99, there is little incentive to purchase HDM especially when coupled with the price of a player.

The article that the OP is so upset about did not misrepesent facts, he just did not like the way the article was worded because it did not make Blu-ray look good. Instead the article pointed out problems and potential problems with the format and its success and was very blunt. While the piece he quoted by Bill Hunt made it seem that all of the issues with BD were very insignificant and one could easily argue that his piece was nothing more than propaganda for Blu-ray.
If it is hype or doom and gloom to point out the problems and issues with something then it must be lying for someone to play down those problems.

Here are the final numbers for DVD for 2007 (sales and rentals) - call it $23 billion:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/2007YearEndOverall-Small.jpg

I have heard two different numbers quoted for HDM. The first one was $750 million. Now I have read it jumped to $1.1 billion (which personally I do not believe). But IF that 1.1 billion (call it an even billion) . . . that is still 1/23 in comparison to DVD revenue . . . less than 5%.

The numbers I heard were ~270 million between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray for 07.

They are already transitioning EXACTLY like VHS to DVD in their stores, but that didn't happen overnight with DVD and will take over the next 2-4 years with BD.

Why do people keep trying to make the VHS->DVD / DVD->BD comparison. I won't go into the vast improvements going from VHS->DVD, that has been hashed countless times before, but I will add another factor that makes this comparison invalid. Penetration.

DVD has a much higher household penetration than VHS did. DVD players are now in the bedrooms, the kitchen, computers, and seem to be approaching "standard option" status in vehicles. It's going to take a long time to replace all those DVD players with BD players and in most cases it doesn't make sense to replace as you won't see the benefits on BD because of the small (low-res) display and poor sound.

John

Why do people keep trying to make the VHS->DVD / DVD->BD comparison. I won't go into the vast improvements going from VHS->DVD, that has been hashed countless times before, but I will add another factor that makes this comparison invalid. Penetration.

DVD has a much higher household penetration than VHS did. DVD players are now in the bedrooms, the kitchen, computers, and seem to be approaching "standard option" status in vehicles. It's going to take a long time to replace all those DVD players with BD players and in most cases it doesn't make sense to replace as you won't see the benefits on BD because of the small (low-res) display and poor sound.

John

I also read the number of discs moved at the same point in time for DVD in its lifecycle were 16 million while Blu-Ray and HD-DVD moved 7 million. HDM is not keeping up with DVD in its lifecycle either.

As long as we are only given percentages versus real numbers . . . we will not know if HDM is growing and at what rate.

DVD player sales were charted from day one - actual sale numbers per month (data at The Digital Bits). We never see this for HDM. Just claims by the CEM's.

And the number of "let's stretch the truth" announcements that we have seen to date makes me look at any data with a skeptical eye.

So you and other forum members know something the industry and retailers don't know?

They are already transitioning EXACTLY like VHS to DVD in their stores, but that didn't happen overnight with DVD and will take over the next 2-4 years with BD.

Call some corp. headquarters and ask the customer service reps what they are told what is happening and what is going to happen.

I can assure you when I have called and what I have been told and in reality what is happening is not what many think.

And...for those who think they won't come out with some new titles on DVD, think again. We have had a great example last year of studios only releasing in the format they supported. That left a lot of us out in the cold, but we dealt with it and they survived. When there were many good movies on HD DVD that I didn't watch because I supported BD, I watched them on DVD or not at all. Now we have all studios going to behind one format, BD. If they choose to release a blockbuster hit with more backing for BD or release the DVD a month after the BD what do you think is going to start happening.


Won't happen. The heavy duty HD DVD studios could have done this to boost the format, but fear got in the way. Do you really think they'll do this for BD? Including a DVD with the BD disc, as Fox has done, is very risky and shows a little desparation - if consumers ebay either disc it may really, really hurt overall sales! BD supporters are now hoping for solutions that HD DVD had builtin into the format, but never used. All the BD manufacturers and studios compete with BD by making DVD players or selling DVD discs and that will keep BD niche. They won't stop or risk DVD because it makes them too much money and someone else will fill the void if they leave. They're trapped in a box - they've shown no imaginative thinking to this point so don't expect them to change - you'll need to learn to live with frustration.

Cheers,

Grant

I also read the number of discs moved at the same point in time for DVD in its lifecycle were 16 million while Blu-Ray and HD-DVD moved 7 million. HDM is not keeping up with DVD in its lifecycle either.

This amazes me. DVD, when it came out was completely incompatible with everything else. I remember how the first 2 year I owned DVD, I was "forced" to join Netflix because you could not get DVDs anywhere else. Stores near me did not sell them and Blockbuster did not rent them.

btw, I bought my first DVD player at the end of 1998 for $149.

This amazes me. DVD, when it came out was completely incompatible with everything else. I remember how the first 2 year I owned DVD, I was "forced" to join Netflix because you could not get DVDs anywhere else. Stores near me did not sell them and Blockbuster did not rent them.

btw, I bought my first DVD player at the end of 1998 for $149.

Let's not forget that at the end of 1998 - 3 studios were not on board with DVD. They were launching DIVX.

DVD has a much higher household penetration than VHS did.

John


What! Tell me, at the same point in time how many household had a dvd player compared to 1 or multiple vhs? 2 years after it's introduction VHS were selling more than dvd player. DVD player for years after it's introduction. Everybody had a vhs at one point or another.

This amazes me. DVD, when it came out was completely incompatible with everything else. I remember how the first 2 year I owned DVD, I was "forced" to join Netflix because you could not get DVDs anywhere else. Stores near me did not sell them and Blockbuster did not rent them.

btw, I bought my first DVD player at the end of 1998 for $149.

You were lucky. I paid $1100.00 for my pany A310 in 1998.

Let's not forget that at the end of 1998 - 3 studios were not on board with DVD. They were launching DIVX.

Universal being one of them if memory serves me. They never learn.

I'm really disappointed at all the negative talk about Blu-ray by many on this forum now that it is the standard High Def disc format. I mean this forum is full of Audio and Video Enthusiast. Blu-ray is the ultimate audio and video quality out there on the market. The war is over. DVD is on the decline and HDM is on the rise. The HDM market is locked into the growth of HDTVs. Each format take time to gain mass market adoption and some formats do not need mass market adoption to be successful(LaserDisc). If some of you are happy with upscaling DVDs then fine but don't for one second think that it provides the superior video and audio over Blu-ray.

Lets me just say this.

There is nothing wrong with the PQ and AQ experience with bluray. It make my hometheater shine. And I will not go back to upscaled DVD as a source for my hometheater.

But I not in the camp that thinks that BD is a must no matter how much it cost. Over here almost every BD is sold for over 35$ (and thats in online stores...)


So having said that, the biggest problem for BD is that not many care about better PQ and AQ. and thats a real problem for the format. (It also was a big problem for HD DVD)

Universal being one of them if memory serves me. They never learn.

Nope:

From Wiki:

Dreamworks, 20th Century Fox, and Paramount Pictures, for instance, initially released their films exclusively on the DIVX format.

Nope:

From Wiki:

Divx has the initial support of four studios: Paramount, Universal Studios, DreamWorks and Buena Vista Home Video. All have agreed to release titles in Divx.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3092/is_n19_v36/ai_19872233

Never trust Wiki without a second opinion.

What! Tell me, at the same point in time how many household had a dvd player compared to 1 or multiple vhs? 2 years after it's introduction VHS were selling more than dvd player. DVD player for years after it's introduction. Everybody had a vhs at one point or another.
You missed my point. I was referring to per household penetration (number of units in a household).

I haven't looked up the numbers, but it wouldn't surprise me if DVD has an overall higher penetration than VHS had when DVD was introduced also.

John

Divx has the initial support of four studios: Paramount, Universal Studios, DreamWorks and Buena Vista Home Video. All have agreed to release titles in Divx.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3092/is_n19_v36/ai_19872233

Never trust Wiki without a second opinion.

Were Disney and Uni exclusive to DIVX?

Were Disney and Uni exclusive to DIVX?

I didn't say they were exclusive or not. I said they were a backer at least.

I didn't say they were exclusive or not. I said they were a backer at least.



Oh . . . OK.

I was alluding to the fact that two years after DVD launched, there were 3 studios that did not offer their movies on DVD. The three listed.

DIVX folded in June 1999

Divx has the initial support of four studios: Paramount, Universal Studios, DreamWorks and Buena Vista Home Video. All have agreed to release titles in Divx.

Wow do they have a habit of backing the wrong format. :D

Oh . . . OK.

I was alluding to the fact that two years after DVD launched, there were 3 studios that did not offer their movies on DVD. The three listed.

DIVX folded in June 1999

Those were scary times. I bought a player that was not compatible with anything else. Netfilx had just started and seemed to be the only real place to get DVDs. Many studios did not release on DVD, and DIVX was a threat.

At least with HD DVD and Blu-ray, discs were available everywhere and players were compatible wth DVD.

Those were scary times. I bought a player that was not compatible with anything else. Netfilx had just started and seemed to be the only real place to get DVDs. Many studios did not release on DVD, and DIVX was a threat.

At least with HD DVD and Blu-ray, discs were available everywhere and players were compatible wth DVD.

:D Back in 1999 I was here at AVS and of course the subject of DIVX was a popular thread subject.

I believe it was Art (?) who wrote up a scenerio about someone with young children - old enough to know how to use a DIVX player and every Sat. and Sunday morning - watching one Disney movie over and over.

Then to the surprise of the adults - seeing their credit card bill the following month with a charge of $100's of dollars for the DIVX fees.

THAT stopped the issue of DIVX stone cold!:D

Were Disney and Uni exclusive to DIVX?

IIRC Disney was, Uni was not.

I am an avid HD support, but I don't think HD is ready for mainstream adoption yet. It is hard to convince someone to spend $400 on a BR player and $20-30 per disk when the overwhelming majority of TV owners have SD TVS (80-85% last time I check back in January) and that many of the "HDTVs" that are being pushed will not see much of a difference between upconverted SD and HD anyway. How many sets do we see advertised as HD and are less than 30"?

I unfortunately think it wil become a nich market. Not a niche like LD was, but a niche like laptops.

Laptops were once thought to eventually replace all desktops as the main computer. Now they go side by side and each have different functions.

I think DVD will be around for quite awhile.

When you think about it, would VHS have completely dissappeared if it fit inside a DVD player. Yes I know that is silly to think of it that way, but the problem comparing BR to other media types is that every bluray player out there is backward compatible in that you just stick the old DVD disk in the same tray.

You couldn't play a record in a cassette or 8 track player, you couldn't play a cassette in a CD player, you cant play a CD "in" an ipod, you cant play LD in a normal DVD player, you can't play 8mm film in a VCR, you cant play VHS in a DVD player .... BUT you can play SD DVD in an HD player and have it upscaled. This is the advantage AND disadvantage that HDM has.

I'm really disappointed at all the negative talk about Blu-ray by many on this forum now that it is the standard High Def disc format. I mean this forum is full of Audio and Video Enthusiast. Blu-ray is the ultimate audio and video quality out there on the market.
Blu-Ray does a lot of things really well and some things not so well. As a new format, A/V Enthusiasts should be demanding to make the bad stuff good, and the good stuff even better. If you just want unconditional cheer leading, we all know which forum to visit instead.

Oh . . . OK.

I was alluding to the fact that two years after DVD launched, there were 3 studios that did not offer their movies on DVD. The three listed.

DIVX folded in June 1999

And the noise ratio on Alt.DVD newsgroup on usenet was about the same. Fan of divx (there was quite a few) were spelling the same gloom and doom about dvd when divx failed. And their biggest argument was that j6p would never buy his movie only rent and divx was a better option since you didn't have to return the disc and movies on divx were for the most part P&S and nobody would want to waste screen space with those pesky black bars. Guess who won.

Blu-Ray does a lot of things really well and some things not so well. As a new format, A/V Enthusiasts should be demanding to make the bad stuff good, and the good stuff even better.Except that's not what's happening. These so-called "enthusiasts" are telling people that Blu-ray is already dead, to just give up because it's not as successfully as DVD (then again, what is?) or because downloading is the way to go.

What Gr00v3r is complaining about is that, as of January 3, these same people that had been advocating for less video compression, more lossless audio, less DRM, and more and better extras are now telling people that the future lies in the exact opposite of all of that.

Blu-Ray does a lot of things really well and some things not so well. As a new format, A/V Enthusiasts should be demanding to make the bad stuff good, and the good stuff even better. If you just want unconditional cheer leading, we all know which forum to visit instead.

Exactly, too many Blue only folks seem to think nothing of acting over zealous about what happened to HD DVD as if they either format really cared about them. To the companies that sell it, it is just about money. Like the post above that declares that Bluray is the ultimate in audio/video.

Have a little grace. There are alot of people in the Purple side that understand that Bluray really hasn't won much at this point. It has only beaten down another HD format.

And before you declare that you won "the war", ask yourself what "war" did you really win. There is no war in the stores. They just want you to buy something. It is like when Coke and Pepsi had their Cola "wars" They are just forcing you to pick sides. By creating a War in the minds of the consumer, they are each just solidifying their own base.

It is way to early to declare victory. The problem with how this "war" ended is that it was in the end decided to studio payoffs and company positioning. It was not won through consumer choice. The problem with that solution is that you still have convince J6P to spend $300-400 on an HD player when TV is telling him that Comcast and Verizon are offering him the same thing, when manufacturers toughted their "HD" upconverting DVD players that they claimed gave you the same quality as HDM.

BR has a long hard uphill fought battle to win as the dominant media. It needs to beat out the 600 lb gorilla in DVD and sub $100 DVD "HD" upconverters, trounce what is being touted as the "ultimate" in AV from comcast and verizon and do it soon enough before Microsoft, Netflix (with LG) and Apple trounce the world with HD downloads. Oh and did I mention that 80% of J6Ps also need to buy an HD TV. And larger than the 20" HDTV that Verizon was giving away with Fios.

I truly hope that BR is able to do it because it is the best quality option. Unfortunately, the best format does not always win -> VHS.

Too many here think PQ alone wil prevail. That is because we are AV geeks. no offense intended. I am one too... although I consider myself quite cool. :D But now it also about convenience. It sure is convenient to just play the on demand HD movie that you are already paying for since you have cable, isn't it? right now 85% of households already are paying for cable (stat reversed from the stat being touted by the goverment for those affected by the feb 2009 shutoff).

I see no reason for the studios to drop BD prices below or at least at the same level as DVD prices. They can produce both, they can profit on both, and both products offer different benefits. It just makes sense to sell them at different prices...
Second, the studios want to resell their catalog titles. That means the HD buzz needs to pick up, and the higher price compared to DVD is part of it(expensive=better).
It doesn't mean I dislike low prices for BDs, nor that I miss Amazon's discounts, BOGOs, LGFYB, etc... It is just the reality of the market.

Allan

ps. I pay for quality, learned a long time ago there is no such thing as a free meal...

Blu-Ray does a lot of things really well and some things not so well. As a new format, A/V Enthusiasts should be demanding to make the bad stuff good, and the good stuff even better. If you just want unconditional cheer leading, we all know which forum to visit instead.

I don't know, we get quite a bit of unconditional cheer leading right here. Just look at any thread in this forum and you'll see someone who will cheer for any tech (be it real or not) that they hope/believe will be the demise of BD.

Exactly, too many Blue only folks seem to think nothing of acting over zealous about what happened to HD DVD as if they either format really cared about them. To the companies that sell it, it is just about money. Like the post above that declares that Bluray is the ultimate in audio/video.

Have a little grace. There are alot of people in the Purple side that understand that Bluray really hasn't won much at this point. It has only beaten down another HD format.

And before you declare that you won "the war", ask yourself what "war" did you really win. There is no war in the stores. They just want you to buy something. It is like when Coke and Pepsi had their Cola "wars" They are just forcing you to pick sides. By creating a War in the minds of the consumer, they are each just solidifying their own base.

It is way to early to declare victory. The problem with how this "war" ended is that it was in the end decided to studio payoffs and company positioning. It was not won through consumer choice. The problem with that solution is that you still have convince J6P to spend $300-400 on an HD player when TV is telling him that Comcast and Verizon are offering him the same thing, when manufacturers toughted their "HD" upconverting DVD players that they claimed gave you the same quality as HDM.

BR has a long hard uphill fought battle to win as the dominant media. It needs to beat out the 600 lb gorilla in DVD and sub $100 DVD "HD" upconverters, trounce what is being touted as the "ultimate" in AV from comcast and verizon and do it soon enough before Microsoft, Netflix (with LG) and Apple trounce the world with HD downloads. Oh and did I mention that 80% of J6Ps also need to buy an HD TV. And larger than the 20" HDTV that Verizon was giving away with Fios.

I truly hope that BR is able to do it because it is the best quality option. Unfortunately, the best format does not always win -> VHS.

What battle? Big studios and CE support DVD. The same so important group support Blu-ray.

People make it sound like the consumer is who is in charge, dictating what the big guys think or do, when in reality it's the other way around.

Except that's not what's happening. These so-called "enthusiasts" are telling people that Blu-ray is already dead, to just give up because it's not as successfully as DVD (then again, what is?) or because downloading is the way to go.

Who is saying that Blu-ray is dead? I haven't seen that anywhere. Is its future as a complete eventual replacement for DVD at risk? Probably. Is anyone saying it won't exist in the near (10 yrs.) future? Not that I have seen.

There just seems to be an overreaction to any report that discusses Blu-ray in less than perfect, all-powerful way.

The truth is that there are more options for entertainment now than ever. One of the required options for some consumers is HD optical media. As long as it can exist in the market, it will be there, whether it dominates or not. Is there anything wrong with that?

What battle? Big studios and CE support DVD. The same so important group support Blu-ray.

People make it sound like the consumer is who is in charge, dictating what the big guys think or do, when in reality it's the other way around.

"You can lead a horse to water . . . but you can't make him drink"

I believe that applies to your post rather well.

Except that's not what's happening. These so-called "enthusiasts" are telling people that Blu-ray is already dead, to just give up because it's not as successfully as DVD (then again, what is?) or because downloading is the way to go.

What Gr00v3r is complaining about is that, as of January 3, these same people that had been advocating for less video compression, more lossless audio, less DRM, and more and better extras are now telling people that the future lies in the exact opposite of all of that.
I totally agree.
Now these AV enthusists think Blu-ray will die, downloading will prevail and these so called "AV enthusists" are also now consumer avocates on when J6P will be ready for Blu-ray or if they will ever choose to purchase. :rolleyes:

The problem with how this "war" ended is that it was in the end decided to studio payoffs and company positioning.

Don't forget how another "studio payoff" occurred even before that to protract the "war". Can't just have it one way and ignore the other, right?

Blu-Ray does a lot of things really well and some things not so well. As a new format, A/V Enthusiasts should be demanding to make the bad stuff good, and the good stuff even better. If you just want unconditional cheer leading, we all know which forum to visit instead.

Except that's not what's happening. These so-called "enthusiasts" are telling people that Blu-ray is already dead, to just give up because it's not as successfully as DVD (then again, what is?) or because downloading is the way to go.

BZiggyZ is correct.

A good example is...
We have threads discussing how BD-J discs take 2, 5, and some blu-ray owners claim up to 10 minutes to load on BD players. While most people are saying this is something that needs to be addressed, the blu-fans pretend this issue does ot exist, and then start attacking a dead format. (Disney even puts disclamers now on BD-J discs about how they may take 2 minutes to load:eek:, so it clearly exists)

For the sake of Blu-ray, we need to work together as consumers to get this issues resolved. My suggestion ofr the above issue was to offer a way to bypass BD-J on discs so that you can just watch the movie.

Another user had a great comment today...I am a consumer, not a format cheerleader.

I totally agree.
Now these AV enthusists think Blu-ray will die, downloading will prevail and these so called "AV enthusists" are also now consumer avocates on when J6P will be ready for Blu-ray or if they will ever choose to purchase. :rolleyes:

So you don't think that the vocal BD fans overact to a new technology announcement that promises to deliver HD content to a consumers home?

Pssst . . . BD is not going to fail, implode, go away . . . whatever. Take that to the bank and cash that puppy.

The only question is . . .

How successful will BD become?

And we can't discuss this without being labeled BD bashers?:confused::confused::confused:

time