now were talkin' !
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/03/13/apple_tv_dvr_interface_revealed_in_patent_filings.html

ken

Pretty slick. Hopefully, this becomes a reality. I'll have to eat some crow as I is/was one of the folks that said that Apple would never build a DVR.

I wonder if this device would have an integrated tuner or would it have to connect to a STB's outputs.

ft

How come they don't publish a link to the patent office filing? I have seen that on many other sites that talk about patents. Also, why do they say "filings published this week" and then say this was filed in Oct. 2006?

Pretty strange, I think.

Further, in the US, you can file a patent without it becoming public. When the US PTO is finished reviewing the patent and "publishes" it, it becomes public. So outfits like AppleInsider routinely scan patents that get published to look for interesting things. inevitably, you find out that the patent was filed 1-2 years previously.

As to this particular patent, and given the time frame it was filed, it looks like Apple was hedging their bets when working up the feature set for the then "iTV." As Apple is wont to do, it files a shotgun blast of patents across the bow of every idea coming out of the skunkworks, just in case one of them makes in into a shipping product.

There are tons of great Apple ideas sitting around in patents that may never see the light of day in a shipping product. An Apple DVR? Well, we've batted that idea around to death. Adding a published patent to the notion of it doesn't bring it any closer to fruition, or change any of the arguments we've put forth, pro or con. But it sure feeds the rumor mill.

As to publishing links to the PTO's files, well, if you go to the PTO and try and make heads or tails of their arcane system for publishing data, you'll see why (why can't they just give us standard pdf's?). AppleInsider does a good and reputable job of digesting and re-printing relevant patent findings.

I think that an Apple DVR servers mainly as a bargaining tool with recalcitrant studios -- "you don't give us HD movies, we release the DVR that we have fully developed" sort of thing.

Speaking of HD movies, according to an article in the Economist from 2 or 3 weeks ago, Apple is only renting (but not selling) due to the then writers strike. The Economist says that now that the strike is settled movie sales will materialize on iTunes as well.

I keep hoping for HD (or at least DVD quality) TV show sales as well. (There is no evidence for this happening however).

I think that an Apple DVR servers mainly as a bargaining tool with recalcitrant studios -- "you don't give us HD movies, we release the DVR that we have fully developed" sort of thing.


great point - sounds like a plausible negotiating position... I think it's possible they will provide DVR as part of a comprehensive 'home' product later this year... But just a hope;

I didn't mean for this thread to be another DVR re-hash -- sorry; Just thought a patent filing added a new 'possibility' reference point.

ken

that would push me over buying one of these boxes

I didn't mean for this thread to be another DVR re-hash -- sorry; Just thought a patent filing added a new 'possibility' reference point.

kenThe timing of the PTO's publishing of the patent is out of Apple's control, so it surfacing right now has no immediate tactical implications for Apple. But strategically, it means that Apple has thought about a DVR, and has taken the steps to protect its position in case it does move to ship a product with one. So that is a good thing. If Apple hadn't worked to protect its IP here, it would either be a dead in the water concept, or they would have to license or buy someone else's technology (like the Tivo on Mac rumors that went around a while back).

But another way to look at this, is that this concept doesn't necessarily have to relate to the appleTV. It could be a system combined with software for a Mini. Or it could be a whole new product. A USB tuner. Or it could be combined with a display, for Ted's ultimate 37-42" Apple Cinema TV Display Series. Or software for a remote using the iPhone and Touch that would control a Mini or appleTV with DVR capabilities and a USB tuner attached to an Apple CTVD. You can get way out there with stuff like this.

With nothing but raw patent filings to go on, the potentials for IP like this are many and varied.

I didn't mean for this thread to be another DVR re-hash -- sorry; Just thought a patent filing added a new 'possibility' reference point.

kenThe timing of the PTO's publishing of the patent is out of Apple's control, so it surfacing right now has no immediate tactical implications for Apple. But strategically, it means that Apple has thought about a DVR, and has taken the steps to protect its position in case it does move to ship a product with one. So that is a good thing. If Apple hadn't worked to protect its IP here, it would either be a dead in the water concept, or they would have to license or buy someone else's technology (like the Tivo on Mac rumors that went around a while back).

But another way to look at this, is that this concept doesn't necessarily have to relate to the appleTV. It could be a system combined with software for a Mini. Or it could be a whole new product. A USB tuner. Or it could be combined with a display, for Ted's ultimate 37-42" Apple Cinema TV Display Series. Or all of the above.

With nothing but raw patent filings to go on, the potentials for IP like this are many and varied.

But another way to look at this, is that this concept doesn't necessarily have to relate to the appleTV. It could be a system combined with software for a Mini. Or it could be a whole new product. A USB tuner. Or it could be combined with a display, for Ted's ultimate 37-42" Apple Cinema TV Display Series. Or software for a remote using the iPhone and Touch that would control a Mini or appleTV with DVR capabilities and a USB tuner attached to an Apple CTVD. You can get way out there with stuff like this.

With nothing but raw patent filings to go on, the potentials for IP like this are many and varied.

agreed - In fact I would bet it's more like a new product that subsumes ATV; Either way, at least it looks like to be well within their scope of thinking, design, and availability - to your point...

ken

Here's the way I'm choosing to look at it:

1st Gen - Apple TV of 2007
2nd Gen - Apple TV Take 2
3rd Gen - the DVR?

It would make sense to get the product out there, tout its online features, get people used to the idea, etc. Just get the feelers out for an Apple product on the TV.

Now that we're comfortable buying TV shows via AppleTV, let's give them the DVR to make it a little more appealing.

Of course with Apple/Jobs, it won't just be a DVR. There will be some type of Tivo-killing application to go along with it.

What do you think my chances are of eliminating my Mac Mini, Tivo HD, and Blu Ray player from the rack all at once, and replacing with just an Apple TV Take 3? :cool:

What do you think my chances are of eliminating my Mac Mini, Tivo HD, and Blu Ray player from the rack all at once, and replacing with just an Apple TV Take 3? :cool:Slim. But it would be killer!

This smells like Apple just scatter-shot patenting... patent 100 ideas, and end up building 2 of them.... as has been argued here many times, while we'd all LOVE to see this kind of product, Apple wants you to buy your media from them.. buy LOST for $1.99 an episode, not record it for free OTA...

I think they only do this if forced to by competition... to take it another direction, what is the scoop on the idea that you are supposed to be able to use your own DVR with cable at some point (in the US)... or at least not have to take the only offering from the cable co... if Apple could get an appliance in that market...

But hey, as for pipe-dreams, we can't even get an update on the Mini of any substance :(

This smells like Apple just scatter-shot patenting... patent 100 ideas, and end up building 2 of them.... as has been argued here many times, while we'd all LOVE to see this kind of product, Apple wants you to buy your media from them.. buy LOST for $1.99 an episode, not record it for free OTA...

I think they only do this if forced to by competition... to take it another direction, what is the scoop on the idea that you are supposed to be able to use your own DVR with cable at some point (in the US)... or at least not have to take the only offering from the cable co... if Apple could get an appliance in that market...



Wouldn't this, with a cablecard slot, fit right into that strategy? I'm OTA only now, and would LOVE to use this product over the Tivo that I'm using now. Assuming it would be mostly the same as my Mac Mini is today (frontrow functionality-wise), this would be a pretty sweet deal.

Instead of a monthly fee, how about requiring .Mac for the guide data, and maybe increase the annual rate for it to $125 or a little higher? This would finally make .Mac something that I would purchase from Apple.

Wouldn't this, with a cablecard slot, fit right into that strategy? I'm OTA only now, and would LOVE to use this product over the Tivo that I'm using now. Assuming it would be mostly the same as my Mac Mini is today (frontrow functionality-wise), this would be a pretty sweet deal.

Instead of a monthly fee, how about requiring .Mac for the guide data, and maybe increase the annual rate for it to $125 or a little higher? This would finally make .Mac something that I would purchase from Apple.

Very interesting idea, and don't get me wrong.. I would love to see it too. I'm just not optimistic about seeing it :) And yes, I think .mac is the biggest waste of $100, but throw an Apple DVR and guide data in, and I'll sign right up. :D

Very interesting idea, and don't get me wrong.. I would love to see it too. I'm just not optimistic about seeing it :) And yes, I think .mac is the biggest waste of $100, but throw an Apple DVR and guide data in, and I'll sign right up. :D

especially coupled with the other benefits and potential benefits... how cool to use .mac to live video chat with family on the TV etc.

ken

especially coupled with the other benefits and potential benefits... how cool to use .mac to live video chat with family on the TV etc.

ken

Which is why Apple needs to release upgraded AppleCinemaDisplays with iSights!

Honestly, I have very little hope for an Apple DVR. Look at what Jobs said about why Apple never released a post Newton PDA -- because way back in the late '90's it was obvious that cell phones would replace the PDAs. (Source: Fortune interview). How's Palm doing these days?

One can equally plausibly say in 2008 that by 2018 cable/DVRs will have gone the way of the PDA in favor of IPTV. (Multicasting would have to become ubiquitous for this to occur). El Jobso would rather devote the limited Apple resources to something more forward looking. However, displays will still be very much around in 2018 -- get cracking on those ACDs Apple!

One can equally plausibly say in 2008 that by 2018 cable/DVRs will have gone the way of the PDA in favor of IPTV.Actually, I think we'll see cable move to IPTV and switched multicasting much faster than that. I sat on a panel with a Bresnan VP last month, and we got off on that tangent. He was very upbeat about the cable industry moving in that direction as quickly as possible.

So given that cable is going iptv in the mid future, what does that predict for Apple and a dvr? Well, a dvr is nothing but a big meta-filter and content provider. If your cable (and fios, and what have you) is coming in switched, then the issue becomes one of finding the content you want (and we all know how much we love TVGuide for this). Content management and access then become the prime concern, and there is huge room for improvement over the current systems that the cablecos use.

And then the issue becomes one of, if cablecos go switched iptv, why can't we pick the switched iptv provider of our choice (including maybe one run by Apple ala the iTunes tvStore)?

Throwing switched iptv into the equation suddenly changes the whole complexion of the landscape, opening up new options, and creating new problems. And who best to solve them? You got it: apple.

Apple could also use the same chip that Haupauge, Sling and Gefen are using to capture HD and encode it in real time. The Gefen product is already out, but the Sling and Haupauge are right around the corner.

many years ago I was fortunate enough to deploy one of the first IP based video/voice/data systems in the country. In doing so, it was clear that traditional dvr/cable was doomed. Once we were switching IP at the head-end the need for dvr just went away with a couple of exceptions. At the time (this was about 10 years ago), switching at the head-end created a 'channel' switch time too slow for most - this has been mostly resolved now; There is still an occasional need for local buffering - this also now resolved with the insignificant cost of storage space...

I think we're getting very close to being there and agree Apple may simple choose to implement with IP real-time switched content via iTunes with perhaps some local storage to augment lower bandwidth customers - essentially emulating DVR equivalency. I hope so...

ken
(Ted - agree on displays with inSight - they should've done that long ago on all Apple displays)

Honestly, I have very little hope for an Apple DVR. Look at what Jobs said about why Apple never released a post Newton PDA -- because way back in the late '90's it was obvious that cell phones would replace the PDAs. (Source: Fortune interview). How's Palm doing these days?


Wouldn't you consider the iPod Touch or iPhone a post-Newton PDA? I do everything today, and then some, that I did with my old Palms, with my iPod touch. It's not exactly a PDA as the Palm was, but it's about 3 devices in one for me.

Maybe the best is yet to come, and the Apple DVR will have DVR, AppleTV, and something else that we don't even know we need yet...

I think it is a given that Apple will be developing and release a MID (Mobile Internet Device) bigger than the Touch or iPhone. Or a range of devices.

I think our best hope for an Apple DVR, is that Microsoft introduce that function into the mainstream of their OS :) (goading Apple in to doing the same).

As for PDAs.. Palm was a one trick pony, but they had a good 8-10(?) year run.. I'd happily see Apple enter a market that was time-limited but have a kick-@%% product for that time...

Microsoft already has Media Center in their OS.

Microsoft already has Media Center in their OS.

For a good number of years too. My Vista MC has three HD-PVR's which playback through my home theater. There's also an automatic commercial deletion utility that trims an hour program down to 42-44 minutes.

I have been wanting to move over to the Mac side but have been hesitant due to Apple's reluctance toward implementing cable TV or OTA PVR capabilities. Please note, playback on the Mac monitor doesn't count. There needs to be direct connections for audio and video output, or at the very least via an Apple TV without having re-encode files. IOW, a seamless workflow.

How many remember the now defunct Mac HT user forum? At the time I recall thinking it wasn't a good sign of things to come.

Good news if it works.
Macs stay DRM free, you have a neat networked set top device with real HD.
HDMI out to a new huge Apple display :)

Gonna need a larger hard drive now. Either enable the USB port and allow external storage or...develop a new unit.

Very interesting idea [cablecard], and don't get me wrong.. I would love to see it too. I'm just not optimistic about seeing it :) And yes, I think .mac is the biggest waste of $100, but throw an Apple DVR and guide data in, and I'll sign right up. :D

I'd be interested in hearing otherwise, but my impression of cablecard (from places like AVSForum) is that its been a fairly large scale disaster.
Getting cablecards to work across the variety of cable boxes out there has been technically difficult, and the cable companies really hate the idea anyway... they want to maintain control.
I'd love there to be a way to burn my cable box, but I haven't seen cablecards live up to their expectations.