What do you use, and why? Duke it out guys.


Here is a little info from courtesy of Appleinsider's AppleTV Take 2 Review (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/02/14/apple_tv_take_2_review_part_2_hd_movie_comparisons.html&page=2) to get you started. (Data relevant as of March, 2008)

http://images.appleinsider.com/appletv-take2-review2-2.jpg

http://images.appleinsider.com/appletv-take2-review2-1.jpg

http://images.appleinsider.com/appletv-take2-review2-3.jpg

http://images.appleinsider.com/appletv-take2-review2-4.jpg

I use BlueRay, with unlimited rentals from Blockbuster.

If the movie isn't in Blueray, I usually try to see if its available on AppleTV in HD.

I would probably rent more from the AppleTV if 1) it tells me if the movie is available in Blueray or not because if it is not, I would rent it right away. Blockbuster's site is kinda cumbersume to find out if the movie is not available in Blueray... then by the time I get back to surfing the AppleTV I forget what it was I wanted to rent from AppleTV because it wasn't available in Blueray but available in HD on the AppleTV 2) If Apple TV also had HD TV shows I would drop my satellite TV service... or at least just get the basic satellite HD with no DVR. However it is convenient when I forget to record a TV show.

For free HD content there is Over The Air broadcast channels. I use that with Series 3 Tivo DVRs. Lifetime subscriptions, multi room viewing, transfer to/from computer, etc.

Thats a nice chart

For free HD content there is Over The Air broadcast channels. I use that with Series 3 Tivo DVRs. Lifetime subscriptions, multi room viewing, transfer to/from computer, etc.

due to the local cable company not really wanting to support local channels (without a cable box rental + extra fee for hd), i am going back OTA.

i would rather backup ota to dvd instead of pc.

at the moment i have a dvd recorder that receives the hd and downconverts to sd for recording. i was looking for a dvd recorder that records in hd on dvd media but it doesn't seem to exist (outside of japan).

Theres a few corrections that need to be made to the chart.

For example, Amazon and X360 both can use wireless (although I am guessing you are looking at standard features only). PS3 does have free movie trailers, both for theater movies and Blurays... And comcast's on demand library may be limited, but its constantly changing, so while its limited at any given time, it evolves and keeps up to date.

Otherwise, good chart. Great place to start off.

Corrections: the $349 XBox is 20 GB. XBox content size is "320 movies, 160 HD".

To be honest, I would remove the disc format columns (PS3 Blu-Ray and HD DVD add-on) since they're not really relevant to the discussion, and only muddy the information provided. A comparison between the download services is what's needed.

I would add a row to the table to describe TV show offerings (SD and HD).

It would also be great to add a row describing the format (i.e. codec and bit rate).

Corrections: the $349 XBox is 20 GB. XBox content size is "320 movies, 160 HD".

To be honest, I would remove the disc format columns (PS3 Blu-Ray and HD DVD add-on) since they're not really relevant to the discussion, and only muddy the information provided. A comparison between the download services is what's needed.

I would add a row to the table to describe TV show offerings (SD and HD).

It would also be great to add a row describing the format (i.e. codec and bit rate).

Ditto.

But what does the PC column really mean? How can you view stuff on your PC from the Comcast box? And how is the DRM onerous on PS3? If you have a Bluray/HDDVD drive you can watch all your movies on a PC. But then thats not downloadable content, nor is it a PS3/Xbox issue anymore.

Ditto.

But what does the PC column really mean? How can you view stuff on your PC from the Comcast box? And how is the DRM onerous on PS3? If you have a Bluray/HDDVD drive you can watch all your movies on a PC. But then thats not downloadable content, nor is it a PS3/Xbox issue anymore.

Thanks for the corrections guys. As of now this graph is directly from appleinsider.com. I would like to take responsibility for the content and keep it updated with your changes, but as of now I can't.

TiVo is an oddity. You can record HD off the movie channels, store the file, and replay it at a later date if you want. This is how I have got about HD 20 movies so far.

I've had a Vudu box for about 2 weeks now and have been very pleased. The closest Blockbuster is about 25 mins from my house, and I'm not a big Netflix type of guy (i.e. if I want to watch something, I don't like to wait a few days/weeks to get it). With the Vudu, I have access to a huge library of content (4000+ available to rent) without leaving my house, and I get instant start (no buffering, no wait for the download to finish...just click "rent" and the movie starts). The Vudu is also a very quiet box (unlike my XBox360, which sounds like a jet engine most of the time). I believe it has a small internal fan, but I can't hear it...even if all of my other equipment is off. Quality of the HD titles is pretty good. I'd say it's better than DVD and cable VOD, but it doesn't compete with HD DVD or BR. I have only watched one SD title, so I don't have a lot of reference points for those. The one I did watch had marco-blocking in a few spots. - I've got two weeks left to decide if I want to keep it (30 day trial) and am certain I'm going to hang onto it.

I'm afraid there are a few errors in the Vudu section of the chart. Info that should be updated is as follows...

- Content is 480p for SD and 1080p/24 for HD (yep, 1080p/24 and the Vudu will output that via HDMI).
- Vudu is currently offering certain movies for free rental (last week it was old westerns...not sure if that changes weekly or...??? - haven't had the box long enough to know). If you buy a box now, you also get Bourne Identity and Supremacy in HD for free (as in you own the copy on the Vudu box...watch it as often as you want).
- the "some in HD" works out to be 111 titles (as of last week - haven't checked this week)...I believe that's more than Apple at the moment. Why is HD "running scared" on Vudu? Not sure I understand that. fivepoint - do you know something I don't? Please, share! :)
- I wanted to mention the sound quality for Vudu too as I think it is probably the best you'll find on a download service at the moment. They use DD+ (256kbps for movies w/5.1 surround). The Vudu box converts the DD+ to 640kbps DD (see the Dolby whitepaper on DD+ for how this works).

If you are looking to download to own or if you want something that handles music, I think Apple is a better bet. I just wanted something for rentals, and I wanted the best audio/video quality I could get. Based on my online research, the Vudu was the best fit. Their large video library pushed me over the top, and I decided to give it a try. No regrets so far!

It would be unfair of me to not mention the negatives...

- 1080p output is 24Hz only (no 1080p60)
- can't transfer movies that you've purchased to another device (iPod, etc. not supported)
- ability to add an external HD via USB is not yet supported (promised via future sw upgrade)
- some movies available for purchase only...some available for rental only
- movies sometimes show up for rental a week or two after they are available to own on DVD

If you can live with those things, then I think you'll be pleased with the Vudu.

Just wondering - what does "running scared" under the Vudu box mean? Is it that everyone else is scared of it, or that it is scared it might not last?

fivepoint mentioned above that the original chart was from appleinsider, which would lead me to believe that it is biased against everything non-apple. I've read independent reviews that say the HD content from Vudu is better than Apple (I'll see if I can find the links). Both Apple and Vudu use h.264 for video (Apple uses main profile, Vudu uses high profile), so Apple has no argument to make there (see wikipedia on h.264 for differences in profiles). Vudu also has the better audio (256kbps DD+ vs Apple's 128kbps AAC). From my point of view (based on specs), appleinsider is just blowing smoke.

Thanks for the corrections guys. As of now this graph is directly from appleinsider.com. I would like to take responsibility for the content and keep it updated with your changes, but as of now I can't.

Ahh... well, could you put together an updated/accurate list? Then we could do it with people's input and keep it correct and as a reference.
If not you, is someone else willing to take it on?

Ahh... well, could you put together an updated/accurate list? Then we could do it with people's input and keep it correct and as a reference.
If not you, is someone else willing to take it on?

Haha, I actually thought about it, offered it in a post and then quickly deleted it after I got to thinking about how much work it would be, and how many PMs I would have to go through each week! ;)

Sorry, I am not up to the task due to time constraints... however, if someone else is, I will delete my chart and direct everyone from the first post, where they can find the updated comparison chart.

fivepoint mentioned above that the original chart was from appleinsider, which would lead me to believe that it is biased against everything non-apple. I've read independent reviews that say the HD content from Vudu is better than Apple (I'll see if I can find the links). Both Apple and Vudu use h.264 for video (Apple uses main profile, Vudu uses high profile), so Apple has no argument to make there (see wikipedia on h.264 for differences in profiles). Vudu also has the better audio (256kbps DD+ vs Apple's 128kbps AAC). From my point of view (based on specs), appleinsider is just blowing smoke.

You could certainly be correct. Here is a (hopefully) unbiased review of video quality (including screenshots) comparing the AppleTV, Vudu, and the XBox 360. The reviewer seemed to think that they were all in the same ballpark, and it simply came down to what hardware you already owned, and which interface/system you felt most comfortable with.


"Now that you've seen all the evidence I could gather. It's a toss-up to me, though I think for content I have to lean towards Vudu and for pure video quality (and most HD content) the Xbox 360 is hard to beat. Meanwhile, Apple TV is cheapest and lives up to its name with the best access to actual TV programming—though NBC is still painfully absent. How about helping me make the call here?"
http://gizmodo.com/363600/apple-tv-vs-vudu-vs-xbox-360-video-download-battlemodo

I'm not sure if I think the Apple is too dark or the Vudu too bright in those gizmodo pics. They aren't identical frames and the pics were taken with a camera, so it's kind of hard to tell. I do think it's pretty obvious that HD Apple > SD Vudu and HD Vudu > SD Apple...not that it tells us much. - Where is Xylon when you need him! :)

Here's a link with screenshots of the user-interfaces and a quick review on both AppleTV and Vudu.

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/2008/02/showdown_apple_tv_vs_vudu.php

What about Hulu? It is free at the moment and offers full-length shows and movies with short (15 to 30 second) commercials. The interface is clean much like the Apple TV.

http://www.hulu.com

SCD

I think Hulu certainly has some advantages. Where else can you find episodes of Airwolf?!? :) ...but their movie selection is really thin compared to AppleTV, Vudu, and XBox Live. The last count I saw was 85 movies from Universal and Fox. In a recent interview, Warner exec Jim Wulthrich is quoted as saying that you won't see their movies on Hulu any time soon (basically said they can't make enough money via ad supported distribution).

Even if you can get past that, the video quality is lacking (480kbps-1Mbps and it's piggy-backed on top of Adobe's Flash player). I can't even find any info on what kind of audio they have, so that's not a good sign (if they aren't talking about it, it probably isn't in 5.1 surround). It's good enough for PC viewing, but it's going to fall short if you put it on the screen in your home theater. They've got a decent library of tv episodes (easily more than what's on Vudu for example), so I can see using it to catch up on a missed tv show. I think that would be my limit though.

Do you use Hulu regularly? If so, let us know what you are watching it on (HTPC, laptop, desktop...what size screen, etc.) and what you think about it.

Xbox 360 has an incorrect resolution listed. I doubt ANYONE is encoded at 1366x768 - it's just not a video resolution. Something I see on some LCD displays for native pixel count, but that's it.

Xbox 360 is 1280 pixels wide for HD content, with height proportional to aspect ratio.

VUDU SD content is encoded at 480P24.
i have two VUDU boxes and definitely enjoy them as an option for watching HD movies. And VUDU is also the reason I've been watching more SD content recently. I was up to 95% HD for all content I watch after watching HD since 2001. Now I'm down to about 85% HD for all content watched because of the ease and convenience of the VUDU boxes.

I've had a Vudu box for about 2 weeks now and have been very pleased. The closest Blockbuster is about 25 mins from my house, and I'm not a big Netflix type of guy (i.e. if I want to watch something, I don't like to wait a few days/weeks to get it). With the Vudu, I have access to a huge library of content (4000+ available to rent) without leaving my house, and I get instant start (no buffering, no wait for the download to finish...just click "rent" and the movie starts). The Vudu is also a very quiet box (unlike my XBox360, which sounds like a jet engine most of the time). I believe it has a small internal fan, but I can't hear it...even if all of my other equipment is off. Quality of the HD titles is pretty good. I'd say it's better than DVD and cable VOD, but it doesn't compete with HD DVD or BR. I have only watched one SD title, so I don't have a lot of reference points for those. The one I did watch had marco-blocking in a few spots. - I've got two weeks left to decide if I want to keep it (30 day trial) and am certain I'm going to hang onto it.

I'm afraid there are a few errors in the Vudu section of the chart. Info that should be updated is as follows...

- Content is 480p for SD and 1080p/24 for HD (yep, 1080p/24 and the Vudu will output that via HDMI).
- Vudu is currently offering certain movies for free rental (last week it was old westerns...not sure if that changes weekly or...??? - haven't had the box long enough to know). If you buy a box now, you also get Bourne Identity and Supremacy in HD for free (as in you own the copy on the Vudu box...watch it as often as you want).
- the "some in HD" works out to be 111 titles (as of last week - haven't checked this week)...I believe that's more than Apple at the moment. Why is HD "running scared" on Vudu? Not sure I understand that. fivepoint - do you know something I don't? Please, share! :)
- I wanted to mention the sound quality for Vudu too as I think it is probably the best you'll find on a download service at the moment. They use DD+ (256kbps for movies w/5.1 surround). The Vudu box converts the DD+ to 640kbps DD (see the Dolby whitepaper on DD+ for how this works).

If you are looking to download to own or if you want something that handles music, I think Apple is a better bet. I just wanted something for rentals, and I wanted the best audio/video quality I could get. Based on my online research, the Vudu was the best fit. Their large video library pushed me over the top, and I decided to give it a try. No regrets so far!

It would be unfair of me to not mention the negatives...

- 1080p output is 24Hz only (no 1080p60)
- can't transfer movies that you've purchased to another device (iPod, etc. not supported)
- ability to add an external HD via USB is not yet supported (promised via future sw upgrade)
- some movies available for purchase only...some available for rental only
- movies sometimes show up for rental a week or two after they are available to own on DVD

If you can live with those things, then I think you'll be pleased with the Vudu.

Another correction for the XBox 360. The content resolution should be 720p(XBox Live)/1080p(HD-DVD) and the native resolution should be 1920 x 1080. Same as the PS3.

Also, wouldn't the Comcast STB and TIVO HD both have a native resolution be 1920 x 1080? Because that is the native res(1080i) of some TV networks that they broadcast/record and that's what they both would display natively on a 1080i HD CRT. I mean a native res of 1366 x 768 makes no since because that would be the native res of the LCD they are being displayed on not the TIVO/Comcast STB/XBox 360 devices themselves. BTW, that would only be 1360 x 768 anyway.

One more thing. The only devices on that list that would be doing any upscaling to 1080p would be the VUDU, PS3 and XBox 360. The other devices on that list would be getting upscaled by the display if it were 1080p.

Very Useful information. I've always debated on what was better but this is actual relevant data. Thank you.

Very Useful information. I've always debated on what was better but this is actual relevant data. Thank you.

Yeah it would be really useful if the OP would come and make some corrections.

Yeah it would be really useful if the OP would come and make some corrections.

I already offered to adjust the original post and direct it towards a new post with an updated graph... but I will not create the graph myself. I simply do not have the time.

Are YOU willing to undertake the task? When someone is ready to do so, just PM me and we can get it lined up.

One thing that should be mentioned -- not necessarily in the table -- is that in comparing AppleTV and Comcast On Demand, AppleTV maintains the original aspect ratio of the film, whereas Comcast, in order to appease the blackbaraphobes, does not.

Also, I frequently get server busy messages from Comcast VOD. The worst case was when I paused a movie for a phone call, VOD went back to the menu, and then I kept getting server busy messages and couldn't finish the movie. And, of course, the Comcast CSR declined to rebate the VOD charge. Grrrrr.

So when AppleTV started offering HD content it has been goodbye Comcast VOD. I've watched three titles so far and have been quite pleased. They were a tad under BD/HD-DVD quality but still looked great on a 57" Toshiba DLP. (The non-HD titles are, however, unwatchable on a large screen).

One thing that should be mentioned -- not necessarily in the table -- is that in comparing AppleTV and Comcast On Demand, AppleTV maintains the original aspect ratio of the film, whereas Comcast, in order to appease the blackbaraphobes, does not.

Also, I frequently get server busy messages from Comcast VOD. The worst case was when I paused a movie for a phone call, VOD went back to the menu, and then I kept getting server busy messages and couldn't finish the movie. And, of course, the Comcast CSR declined to rebate the VOD charge. Grrrrr.

So when AppleTV started offering HD content it has been goodbye Comcast VOD. I've watched three titles so far and have been quite pleased. They were a tad under BD/HD-DVD quality but still looked great on a 57" Toshiba DLP. (The non-HD titles are, however, unwatchable on a large screen).

Well, to be fair(and I'm not a comcast fan) wether or not a movie is OAR or not is up to the network that is showing it not Comcast. Showtime for instance shows almost all of thier movies in OAR.

Nothing beats BLUE RAY. If your investing in HT and a blue ray player why waster time with this other boxes or services I see no point.

Apple TV SD movies are totally unwatchable except in the cases where you are extremely desperate to watch something. It is on par with analog TV, but with way worse colors and blocking.

Apple TV SD movies are totally unwatchable except in the cases where you are extremely desperate to watch something. It is on par with analog TV, but with way worse colors and blocking.

Indeed. They are worse than illegal divx files. I am not sure why, their HD stuff is decent.

Nothing beats BLUE RAY. If your investing in HT and a blue ray player why waster time with this other boxes or services I see no point.

One reason, Fit2Run, is that there are HD movies available from Comcast VOD andApple that aren't yet on Blu-Ray. Another reason is that on-demand services like Apple TV HD downloads and Comcast VOD allow you to watch something without having to wait for the disk to arrive from NetFlix.

Moreover the AppleTV is more than an HD download device. It also stores your music and photo libraries for convenient playback/display on your home theatre system, something a Blu-Ray can't.

All that being said, I plan on buying a BD player one or two generations down the line when all the quirks in them have been ironed out because what a BD player lacks in convenience, it certainly makes up in quality of output. My original post was simply a comparison of Comcast VOD and Apple TV HD downloads. It wasn't a slight of BD or meant to insult any of you BD "fanboyz."

Well, to be fair(and I'm not a comcast fan) wether or not a movie is OAR or not is up to the network that is showing it not Comcast. Showtime for instance shows almost all of their movies in OAR.

Good point. It is the choice of the programming service, not Comcast, as to what's OAR and what's not. Still, although some Comcast VOD in HD is OAR, most of it isn't and so far all of the Apple TV HD movies that I've seen have been in OAR.

I'm also not saying Apple TV HD is perfect. Some of the available films lack DD 5.1 -- Ratatouille (!!) for instance. And if your network tends to slow down, or you're getting throttled by your ISP, you might want to build up a 30-45 minute buffer before watching. I was just saying that for those of us to whom OAR is important, it's an option to consider.

What's OAR?

What's OAR?

OAR - Original Aspect Ratio

The aspect ratio of HDTV is 1.78:1 and is full wide screen. Some movies are 1.85:1 and are also shown in full wide screen. However, most movies these days are 2.35:1 and if shown in OAR on an HDTV would have black bars at the top and bottom of the screen. Some networks chose to show these films full wide screen so they crop the films to 1.85:1 so you are no longer seeing the full image. Naturaly, made for TV HD movies and programs are 1.78:1.

btw, for reference, full screen SDTV is 1.33:1.

Thanks!

Indeed. They are worse than illegal divx files. I am not sure why, their HD stuff is decent.

It's pretty simple: the SD material is the same as what people buy or rent on iTunes for iPhones and iPods. Since Apple only officially supports video at 640x480 on these devices (I believe the iPhone/iPod touch technically support more), the company can't go above that if it wants the video files to be ubiquitous.

That's a hard limit, and it means that widescreen videos have to run at lower than SD if they're widescreen (for example, 640x360). Apple is starting fresh with HD and so can go to a true 1280x720 resolution along with better encoding if necessary.

I gotta say after downloading my first VOD from XBOX Live, I am pretty impressed. After years of being on the bleed edge of technology I have lost my taste and have sat out this latest format war. I am starting to side with Steve Jobs that the format war has been over for some time and VOD is the winner. I like not being tied to membership programs and buying additional boxes. The VOD feature of XBOX is a side benefit, I bought this for a gaming system. Adding the mp3/pitures/videos from my PC network and this I have been very happy. I am also reasonably surprised in the video and audio quality. HD movies look and sound great. :cool:

for xbox 360, what are the video download formats?
I went to http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/marketplace/moviestv/default.htm
I see a few different video formats, but 240 and 360 and 480 seem most common. They put "480" as HD, and "240" as SD and "360" sometimes SD sometimes HD. Which of xbox's formats is equivalent to standard anamorphic widescreen DVD resolution (480x720)?

I have both the PS3 and TWC on demand, and watched "The Bucket List" a couple of days ago. This time, we went with TWC high definition on-demand. And the PQ was just great!!! I really enjoyed the extra resolution over DVD quality that the PS3 SD version would have had. As a bonus, the TWC on-demand movie came with captions.

TWC on demand and PS3 download movies we've recently watched
TWC HD, "The Bucket List", and "Lions for Lambs"
PS3-SD, "The Cooler", and "27 Dresses"

At this point, the PS3 store has about 450 selections, so it is becoming pretty viable. TWC has about 40 selections, including most new releases. More selections are available in SD. The Sony menu is superb, compared to the TWC menu.

Sometimes, I figure DVD quality from the PS3 is good enough, and is usually a couple of bucks cheaper than the TWC HD version. With our bandwidth, the PS3 SD version is available almost instantly, but we don't have enough bandwidth for the PS3 HD version instantly. A typical 2 hour HD movie might be a 4-6 hour download. I haven't seen captions on the PS3 downloads I've watched.

For the PS3, "27 Dresses" was a 16:9 crop from 2.35:1, but since that was in SD, the PQ was actually really good. "Lions for Lambs", TWC-HD was also a 16:9 crop from the 2.35:1 anamorphic source, so the PQ was not nearly as good as "The Bucket List", TWC-HD. I thought the PQ was equivalent to the SD 16:9 crop of "27 dresses" from the PS3. For both download services, there's no way to tell when a movie will be OAR or a 16:9 crop from 2.35:1, or open matte. For PS3 downloads, neither movie we watched had captions.

The PQ on "The Cooler" on the PS3 was also very good. The PS3 SD downloads at 2 mbits/sec, seem to match standard definition DVD at 5 mbits/sec, perhaps due to improvements in codecs in the past 10 years.

TWC also has standard definition movies on demand, usually $2 dollars less than their HD versions. These are either 640x480 4:3 or 640x360 letterboxed, so either you get a 4:3 crop, or mediocre letterboxed quality. Also, the TWC mpeg-2 compression shows more motion artifacts than the slightly lower bit rate PS3 compression. The PS3 standard definition downloads are 720x480, SD-DVD quality, and usually cost the same as TWC's standard definition downloads, so I would always pick PS3 SD over TWC SD.

The PS3 remote has better fast wind features, and chapters, and 120x, and is more functional than TWC on demand's "slow" fast forward. That same remote is much better at navigating the PS3 menu's. TWC needs a major overhaul on their user interface design.

At this point, I like the PS3 service -- keep the selection growing! Sony needs someway of allowing more than 24 hours if you start watching an HD download and realize that the download isn't keeping up with the movie. Also, they need to offer captions. Other's have noted that the PS3 doesn't have dolby 5.1 audio. That's not an issue for me personally, we're happy using our old two channel stereo system. But I would think for PS3 HD, the extra bandwidth for dolby 5.1 would make sense.

For 1.85:1 movies, TWC HD on-demand is almost blu-ray quality, so the TWC service has the advantage for HD -- but only if TWC offers movies in OAR. This is especially true if the movie was filmed anamorphically, and doesn't have the resolution to support a high quality 16:9 crop. Also, if you've got the big screen 1080 TV, which we do, than there's nothing like the experience of a wide screen 2.35:1 high definition movie.

for xbox 360, what are the video download formats?
I went to http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/marketplace/moviestv/default.htm
I see a few different video formats, but 240 and 360 and 480 seem most common. They put "480" as HD, and "240" as SD and "360" sometimes SD sometimes HD. Which of xbox's formats is equivalent to standard anamorphic widescreen DVD resolution (480x720)?

You have misunderstood the web page. 240, 360 and 480 are the prices in Microsoft Points. They equal $3, $4.50 and $6.

The format has been mentioned before in this forum. As I recall, it is 6.8 Mbps VC-1, 720p. Sound is 5.1 for some titles and stereo for others (this is up to the content provider).

I don't know what the PS3 movie store's format or bit rate is. I assume it's AVC. Can someone with a PS3 tell? Do the movies have 5.1 sound?

The Canadian XBox Live movie store has partially caught up to the U.S. movie store. I counted 225 movies available last night. It wasn't clear to me which studios might have been missing. This is a big improvement compared to when the movie service first came to Canada.

The XBox website currently lists 583 movies for the U.S. movie store.

It would be nice if the OP table was replaced with current info (including PSN).

From what I have seen Vudu looks much better than AppleTV. The DD+ aspect of Vudu is also attractive. The Vudu user interface was also very intuitive.

From what I have seen Vudu looks much better than AppleTV. The DD+ aspect of Vudu is also attractive. The Vudu user interface was also very intuitive.

UNfotunately the VUDU box doesn't bitstream the DD+. It transcodes it to DD before being output from the box.

If you have specific questions related to the VUDU box or service, I'm happy to help.

Patrick Ellis
Sr Product Manager, VUDU

I am inclined to create the official/accurate table and maintain it as a FAQ. Let me take another look at what it will take and I will append tomorrow.


PM to OP sent re: updating and maintaining the table.

UNfotunately the VUDU box doesn't bitstream the DD+. It transcodes it to DD before being output from the box.

how is that unfortunate?

Thanx for the info buddy...............

how is that unfortunate?

Because DD+ allows for a higher bitrate than DD. So if the box had the capability to bitstream it would have the possibility to have better audio quality than a DVD. But since it only has HDMI 1.1 it can't bitstream the DD+. It has to be transcoded to DD before output from the box.

OF course this doesn't make the VUDU box any less useful. It's all about convenience and the VUDU box is about as convenient as you can get for HD VOD.

It has to be transcoded to DD before output from the box.
With HDMI 1.1, it could also be unpacked to LPCM and sent over HDMI, without the conversion from one lossy format to another.

With HDMI 1.1, it could also be unpacked to LPCM and sent over HDMI, without the conversion from one lossy format to another.
I don't think the box has that capability.

Because DD+ allows for a higher bitrate than DD. So if the box had the capability to bitstream it would have the possibility to have better audio quality than a DVD. But since it only has HDMI 1.1 it can't bitstream the DD+. It has to be transcoded to DD before output from the box.

OF course this doesn't make the VUDU box any less useful. It's all about convenience and the VUDU box is about as convenient as you can get for HD VOD.
Blu-ray uses dolby-digital 640kbps, which isn't dolby digital plus, but which is a higher bit riate than standard dvd which is limited to dolby-digital 448kpbs or dolby-digital 384kbps. DD/640 works fine transmitted on the older optical toslink; I assume on hdmi as well.

DD/640 isn't loosless, but is perceptually transparent (http://www.answers.com/topic/digital-theater-system). Maybe someone would know which dolby digital bit rates vudu supports.

Blu-ray uses dolby-digital 640kbps, which isn't dolby digital plus, but which is a higher bit riate than standard dvd which is limited to dolby-digital 448kpbs or dolby-digital 384kbps. DD/640 works fine transmitted on the older optical toslink; I assume on hdmi as well.

DD/640 isn't loosless, but is perceptually transparent (http://www.answers.com/topic/digital-theater-system). Maybe someone would know which dolby digital bit rates vudu supports.

I'm not sure what the rate is, but with DD+ you can definitely get a higher bitrate which can sound much better than DD can. DD+ at 1.5mbs sounds much better than DD at 640kbs. They do not sound the same.

I'm not sure what the rate is, but with DD+ you can definitely get a higher bitrate which can sound much better than DD can. DD+ at 1.5mbs sounds much better than DD at 640kbs. They do not sound the same.
Perhaps you are you comparing the higher quality audio against DVD, which is limited to DD 448 kbps?

There is a slight audible improvement going to DD 640, but I haven't seen any links to double blind tests with level matched material where listeners were able to reliably pick out the lossless track versus the DD/640 track. Sticking with DD/640 makes sense given the download bandwidth limitations and given the hardware support for DD/640 on older non hdmi 5.1 surround sound systems.

I have no problem with them sticking with DD, that was their decision and it makes sense.

There is a slight audible improvement going to DD 640, but I haven't seen any links to double blind tests with level matched material where listeners were able to reliably pick out the lossless track versus the DD/640 track. Sticking with DD/640 makes sense given the download bandwidth limitations and given the hardware support for DD/640 on older non hdmi 5.1 surround sound systems.

I read this awhile ago and gave up trying to always get TrueHD or measure bit rate. Even in my best set up (which is nowhere near a professional set up), I might hear a little difference switching between high/low bitrate DD but it's not something I can't continue listening to.

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM

anyone know about this new format

anyone know about this new format

What would you like to know?

Patrick Ellis
Sr Product Manager, VUDU

Vudu got a nice write up by David Pogue in today's New York Times

What would you like to know?

Patrick Ellis
Sr Product Manager, VUDU

Question about differences with XL unit: aside from larger HD: what are the differences?

I would use with RTI remote but would not mind using an IR emitter

Question about differences with XL unit: aside from larger HD: what are the differences?

I would use with RTI remote but would not mind using an IR emitter

Compared to the BX100, the XL has a 1TB Drive (vs 250GB), which is good for permanent storage of 500 SD titles vs 50. Additionally, the XL has an optional software package that enables IP control and HD output (up to 1080i) over the Component outputs where they are otherwise limited to 480p. IR control is available on both boxes with the IR kit.

Patrick

What would you like to know?

Patrick Ellis
Sr Product Manager, VUDU
1) Is the HDX format equal to BluRay in terms of video quality? 2) Is audio similar to Blu-ray lossless audio or is it still Basic Dolby Digital? 3) Will VuDu support 7.1 audio through HDMI similar to some Blu-Ray discs and similar to what XstreamHd is positioning in their announcements?

I have been holding off on all download services until I can find one that matched Blu-Ray. I have also been holding off waiting for Xstream HD, although that seems to be vapor ware so far.

1) Is the HDX format equal to BluRay in terms of video quality? 2) Is audio similar to Blu-ray lossless audio or is it still Basic Dolby Digital? 3) Will VuDu support 7.1 audio through HDMI similar to some Blu-Ray discs and similar to what XstreamHd is positioning in their announcements?

I have been holding off on all download services until I can find one that matched Blu-Ray. I have also been holding off waiting for Xstream HD, although that seems to be vapor ware so far.

1) We're not going to make that claim, but feedback from those that have seen it is very positive.
2) HDX titles feature up to 640kbps Dolby Digital which, while not lossless, is a significant improvement in audio quality. It's also 40% greater than the bit rate of DD on DVDs and the same as the 187+ titles on Blu-ray that only have DD.
3) Unfortunately, our current hardware isn't capable of 7.1. So no, you won't see it soon.


Patrick

How will it compare to DirecTV HD VOD?

Perhaps this article has a bit more of the detail you are asking about
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6601272.html


Vudu calls the service “HDX,” with video encoded at variable bit-rate in MPEG-4 H.264 in 1080p at 24 frames per second—the highest HD format currently defined.

The average bit-rate for an HDX-encoded title is 9 to 10 Mbps, compared with about 4 Mbps for Vudu’s regular 1080i HD titles, said chief technology officer Prasanna Ganesan.

Compared to the BX100, the XL has a 1TB Drive (vs 250GB), which is good for permanent storage of 500 SD titles vs 50. Additionally, the XL has an optional software package that enables IP control and HD output (up to 1080i) over the Component outputs where they are otherwise limited to 480p. IR control is available on both boxes with the IR kit.

Patrick

Patrick

Can you tell me how to set up the XL for 1080i over component video output?

HD over Component is enabled as part the XLS1 software package for the XL. XLS1 also includes IP control (though this feature may already be enabled on your XL). Your dealer can place the order.

Perhaps this article has a bit more of the detail you are asking about
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6601272.html


But it also has misinformation. All the VUDU HD titles have been encoded in 1080P24 not 1080i. They are just at a lower bitrate than the HDX titles. The HD titles are around 4mbs MPEG4 while the HDX are around 10mbs MPEG4, both at 1080P24.

HD over Component is enabled as part the XLS1 software package for the XL. XLS1 also includes IP control (though this feature may already be enabled on your XL). Your dealer can place the order.

Thanks: that did the trick :)

But it also has misinformation. All the VUDU HD titles have been encoded in 1080P24 not 1080i. They are just at a lower bitrate than the HDX titles. The HD titles are around 4mbs MPEG4 while the HDX are around 10mbs MPEG4, both at 1080P24.Where is this written? It's difficult to believe that a 4 Mbps 1080p24 encoding would be watchable. Even for 720p24 (less than half the resolution), the XBL Video Store uses a VC-1 encoding at around 6.5 Mbps.

VUDUPatrick, can you confirm?

Correct, from the beginning all of our HD content has been in 1080p24. Instant HD has a total stream bitrate of about 4mbps. H.264 with a good encoder and the right parameters can do some impressive things. Even more so when you give it nearly 10mbps average to work with.

Where is this written? It's difficult to believe that a 4 Mbps 1080p24 encoding would be watchable. Even for 720p24 (less than half the resolution), the XBL Video Store uses a VC-1 encoding at around 6.5 Mbps.

VUDUPatrick, can you confirm?


I believe both Vudu and Apple have quite generous return policies so give it a try.

Another advantage is there are lots of exclusive HD content to try out as well. Many catalog titles that haven't made it to Blu Ray yet.

I wish Vudu or Apple TV offered subtitles with their HD movies.

I believe both Vudu and Apple have quite generous return policies so give it a try.

Another advantage is there are lots of exclusive HD content to try out as well. Many catalog titles that haven't made it to Blu Ray yet.

I wish Vudu or Apple TV offered subtitles with their HD movies.I've got an Xbox 360, PS3 and TiVo Series3, all of which continue to evolve as download rental/purchase playback platforms, so I'm not sure exactly what either Vudu or AppleTV have to offer that would make them worth my dime. I'm sure that they have some superior features and available content, but is it enough to make them worth the investment (and the clutter of yet another oddly shaped box in my rig)? Currently, I don't think so.

Does anyone know if VUDU or AppleTV has the better SD picture quality? I'm very close to buying one of these systems.

Thanks

Oops, I just read more of the posts and it appears VUDU is better picture quality for both SD and HD, right?

Correct, from the beginning all of our HD content has been in 1080p24. Instant HD has a total stream bitrate of about 4mbps. H.264 with a good encoder and the right parameters can do some impressive things. Even more so when you give it nearly 10mbps average to work with.

Don't you mean 10 mbps peak? 10 mbps average would give you a stream rate of 10 mbps + audio which would for sure be above a total stream rate of 4 mbps.

Don't you mean 10 mbps peak? 10 mbps average would give you a stream rate of 10 mbps + audio which would for sure be above a total stream rate of 4 mbps.

The 10mbs is referring to the HDX titles. The HD titles are 4mbs.

fivepoint mentioned above that the original chart was from appleinsider, which would lead me to believe that it is biased against everything non-apple. I've read independent reviews that say the HD content from Vudu is better than Apple (I'll see if I can find the links). Both Apple and Vudu use h.264 for video (Apple uses main profile, Vudu uses high profile), so Apple has no argument to make there (see wikipedia on h.264 for differences in profiles). Vudu also has the better audio (256kbps DD+ vs Apple's 128kbps AAC). From my point of view (based on specs), appleinsider is just blowing smoke.

Just a few corrections, Apple uses either a main or high profile encoder for it's HD offerings. On the audio side Apple includes a 160 kbps AAC stereo pro logic encode in addition to a 384 kbps AC-3 5.1 DD audio track.

The 10mbs is referring to the HDX titles. The HD titles are 4mbs.


Correct. Additionally, HDX titles peak at 20mbps while Instant HD titles peak at 8 or so.

Oops, I just read more of the posts and it appears VUDU is better picture quality for both SD and HD, right?

I would suggest checking it out for yourself. Go to a Best Buy and watch part of a movie or TV show on a Vudu box. Also go to iTunes and download an HD TV episode (you also get the SD as well when downloading an HD file for watching on your iPhone or iPod) or go to an Apple Store and play around with an AppleTV. Right now it looks like the pilot of Valentine is up for free on iTunes (not the best cinematic quality)

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewTVSeason?i=293680287&id=292474694&s=143441

I would suggest checking it out for yourself. Go to a Best Buy and watch part of a movie or TV show on a Vudu box. Also go to iTunes and download an HD TV episode (you also get the SD as well when downloading an HD file for watching on your iPhone or iPod) or go to an Apple Store and play around with an AppleTV. Right now it looks like the pilot of Valentine is up for free on iTunes (not the best cinematic quality)

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewTVSeason?i=293680287&id=292474694&s=143441You can't download HD versions of movies on a PC or Mac from the iTunes Store (I don't believe). There are no theatrical release HD stuff available for download onto a networked PC from anyone--I think that's still a sticking-point with Hollywood.

You can't download HD versions of movies on a PC or Mac from the iTunes Store (I don't believe). There are no theatrical release HD stuff available for download onto a networked PC from anyone--I think that's still a sticking-point with Hollywood.

That's why I suggested an HD TV episode which you can download to your Mac or PC. Should give you an idea of what the quality looks like for Apple's HD offering.

That's why I suggested an HD TV episode which you can download to your Mac or PC. Should give you an idea of what the quality looks like for Apple's HD offering.Thanks--I was unaware that they now offer some HD TV episodes. I bought several episodes of Torchwood from the iTunes store (cause it's not available for download from anywhere else that I could find), but they were in widescreen SD. I'm downloading the freebie Valentine pilot now.

Hmm. The Valentine pilot (for a real stinker of a series, by all indications--Desperate Housewives meets Charmed :rolleyes:) looks pretty decent, but my laptop's CPU, a 2 GHz Turion 64 Mobile with an ATI Radeon Xpress 200 series chip, lacks the muscle to handle playback smoothly. Unfortunately (though unsurprisingly), the file is DRM protected, or I'd try playing it back on the Xbox 360 or Playstation 3.

The player says that its 4.11 Mbps H.264 clip with both a 152 Kbps stereo and 374 Kbps surround soundtracks (4.64 Mbps aggregate).

Hmm. The Valentine pilot (for a real stinker of a series, by all indications--Desperate Housewives meets Charmed :rolleyes:) looks pretty decent, but my laptop's CPU, a 2 GHz Turion 64 Mobile with an ATI Radeon Xpress 200 series chip, lacks the muscle to handle playback smoothly. Unfortunately (though unsurprisingly), the file is DRM protected, or I'd try playing it back on the Xbox 360 or Playstation 3.

The player says that its 4.11 Mbps H.264 clip with both a 152 Kbps stereo and 374 Kbps surround soundtracks (4.64 Mbps aggregate).

Yeah high profile H.264 at 720p has some serious CPU/GPU requirements. What you might also try for a fun A/B comparison is to switch iTunes to play the SD version (Preferences > Playback).

Also I was by no means endorsing Valentine, it does look truly awful. However you can't beat the price ;) Apple announced today that they have all four major TV networks now in HD so there are much better shows to choose from.

VUDUPatrick,

I'm looking for more info on your product. BestBuy only carries the 250Gb model, and i'd rather have a human being to yell at if i run into compatibility issues. Is there a timeline for enabling external storage on that device? (if at all?)

Also, would there ever be a consideration of adding a UPnP client to the machine so i can watch my other already ripped DVD collection via your machine? If this feature existed, i think you'd have a killer product. I'm getting rather sick of having 5 different machines in my hardware collection (mostly failed mind you) to watch 200 different titles i own already.

Think the LOTR saying... ONE MACHINE TO RULE THEM ALL. (and nobody please say PC, they're just too darn bulky and clumsy)

goobenet,

Thanks for the enthusiasm and suggestions. Unfortunately, we're not in the business of tipping our hand about unannounced features until they are ready to go. There are just too many variables that can result in disappointed people all around when a feature isn't as promised (or at all) or doesn't make a previously announced date. You'll hear when or if we announce such features as those you mention. Sorry I can't be more help than that.

Patrick

The biggest feature I think would be nice with VUDU would be a way to watch owned content that has been downloaded on one box, to be viewed on another one. Xbox Live allows this by being logged into to your gamer tag. As long as you are logged into the gamer tag that the content was purchased, you can download the purchased content and view it. And once that gamer tag is logged out, no one will be able to view the content so it is secure.

I'll be getting my third VUDU box later this week from Best Buy. This is why I would like this feature. If I only owned one box then it wouldn't matter.

goobenet,

Thanks for the enthusiasm and suggestions. Unfortunately, we're not in the business of tipping our hand about unannounced features until they are ready to go. There are just too many variables that can result in disappointed people all around when a feature isn't as promised (or at all) or doesn't make a previously announced date. You'll hear when or if we announce such features as those you mention. Sorry I can't be more help than that.

Patrick

Understandable. although looking through the specs between the $300 box and the $1k box, the only difference i can find is the 1tb hard drive? Unless it's lined in gold, a $600 premium seems a little off-the-cuff marketing to those who have to get "the best" and pay for it... those of us in the know however know that a 1tb drive can be had for under $150 nowdays.

Are there other features i'm missing here that warrant the premium? (just curious, i'm waiting for payday to pick one up, give it a whirl!)

The VUDU XL is also capable of up to 1080i over component (simultaneously with HDMI) and IP control for integration with advanced control systems. This is in addition to being able to store 500 SD titles vs the 50 or so of the VUDU HD (VBX100). Moving forward there may be additional features and functionality that will only be available on the VUDU XL.

Plus isn't the VUDU XL only available from custom installers? So the higher price has a higher built in profit margin for the custom installers since you are also buying their services along with the box?

Plus isn't the VUDU XL only available from custom installers? So the higher price has a higher built in profit margin for the custom installers since you are also buying their services along with the box?

Apple TV will have a major upgrade at Mac World Jan 2009

Plus isn't the VUDU XL only available from custom installers? So the higher price has a higher built in profit margin for the custom installers since you are also buying their services along with the box?

You are correct in that the VUDU XL is only available from custom installers and select high-end specialty retailers.

The VUDU XL is also capable of up to 1080i over component (simultaneously with HDMI) and IP control for integration with advanced control systems. This is in addition to being able to store 500 SD titles vs the 50 or so of the VUDU HD (VBX100). Moving forward there may be additional features and functionality that will only be available on the VUDU XL.

Since this is the Vudu vs AppleTV thread gotta point out that AppleTV does 1080p over component & HDMI simultaneously. Having a 1 TB option on the AppleTV would be nice, but then again all of my AppleTVs are configured to stream from a central server that is located in my equipment room so really for me the local disk is only used for HD movie rental. As for IP control of the AppleTV I just use the Remote app on my iPhone. Let's me browse and control my AppleTV from anywhere on my network, pretty nice interface as well.

Since this is the Vudu vs AppleTV thread gotta point out that AppleTV does 1080p over component & HDMI simultaneously. Having a 1 TB option on the AppleTV would be nice, but then again all of my AppleTVs are configured to stream from a central server that is located in my equipment room so really for me the local disk is only used for HD movie rental. As for IP control of the AppleTV I just use the Remote app on my iPhone. Let's me browse and control my AppleTV from anywhere on my network, pretty nice interface as well.

I thought AppleTV was capped at 720p and couldn't do 1080p? I'm really on the fence between AppleTV and Vudu. Right now, I'm leaning toward VUDU w/HDX, but I own 2 iMacs and an iPhone so the AppleTV is very interesting from an integration and long term viability standpoint (I'm more nervous about VUDU going out of business in a year or 2).

If the AppleTV can actually output 1080p; it would be possible that Apple could announce a product similar to HDX and existing AppleTV's could handle it correct?

Thanks!
KF

I thought AppleTV was capped at 720p and couldn't do 1080p? I'm really on the fence between AppleTV and Vudu. Right now, I'm leaning toward VUDU w/HDX, but I own 2 iMacs and an iPhone so the AppleTV is very interesting from an integration and long term viability standpoint (I'm more nervous about VUDU going out of business in a year or 2).

If the AppleTV can actually output 1080p; it would be possible that Apple could announce a product similar to HDX and existing AppleTV's could handle it correct?

Thanks!
KF

There is what the AppleTV can output to a receiver and what the maximum resolution the AppleTV can decode H.264 video at. You are correct that the AppleTV is currently limited to 720p for H.264 video playback. If you have your AppleTV set to display at 1080p it will perform the up conversion to 1080p as part of the rendering process.

I find this thread fairly interesting for 1080p H.264 playback on the new MacBook laptops:

http://www.powerpage.org/2008/10/late_2008_macbook_macbook_pro_notebooks_may_be_using_gpubase d_h264_video_decoding.html

Full frame 1080p H.264 decoding only using 20% of the CPU ... nice :)

Apple TV will have a major upgrade at Mac World Jan 2009

I have yet to hear any rumours on what that might be. Any ideas? I plan on using boxee on an Apple TV for Hulu access, currently waiting on an invite for it. That and knowing an upgrade coming is likely are what's stopping me from picking one up right now.

I'm waiting on the update too. At least to hear what it is. I really want an AppleTV or Vudu box, but again feel the need to point out (to beat a dead horse) that whichever one gets a buffet plan (i.e. so many movies a month for a set fee) gets my business, as long as it's semi-affordable.

Or perhaps Netflix will start offering HD content. I would think if they do (and keep the buffet plan, even if it's at a premium cost), the others would have to follow suit. The PPV model is just not affordable to me.

New Vudu owner so Im subbing to the thread.

Very happy so far, seems the HDX push is going well. HDX PQ is damn fine.

VuduPatrick, if we buy a unit and the hard drive fails, can we replace it ourselves or do we have to buy a new vudu box? Curious how that is handled as I am considering a Vudu unit, but I don't want to be stuck with a non-servicable box and have to buy a new one when (not if) the drive fails.

VuduPatrick, if we buy a unit and the hard drive fails, can we replace it ourselves or do we have to buy a new vudu box? Curious how that is handled as I am considering a Vudu unit, but I don't want to be stuck with a non-servicable box and have to buy a new one when (not if) the drive fails.

Good question.

Sorry, the hard drive is not user-replaceable.

What is the cost to have the drive replaced? I would really hate to have these units be disposable and just have to buy a new one.

Reason I ask is with AppleTv, there is a pretty easy upgrade/replace process, similar to Tivo. Not that either manufacturer "support" it. Since I am sure the price of the Vudu unit is not recouping the actual costs (maybe it is?), but you intend to make your profit off the PPV style of selling, I would think it would be better to have a unit that users would not have to worry about losing use of to continue the PPV revenue stream.

What kind of drive is used by Vudu? Sata? IDE? SCSI (doubting this one, but just in case)

Honestly, I don't see how Vudu will be in business 6 months from now. The hardware and movies are expensive an do not offer any value add over competing products. Vudu lacks the ability to stream photos, music, movies, watch trailers, youtube, and a large # of TV shows.

Their probably breaking even on hardware or losing money. And the money they make off of content is pennies.

What consumer would choose this over their existing cable box, Netflix, AppleTV, PS3, or a dedicated Blu-ray player?

Honestly, I don't see how Vudu will be in business 6 months from now. The hardware and movies are expensive an do not offer any value add over competing products. Vudu lacks the ability to stream photos, music, movies, watch trailers, youtube, and a large # of TV shows.

Their probably breaking even on hardware or losing money. And the money they make off of content is pennies.

What consumer would choose this over their existing cable box, Netflix, AppleTV, PS3, or a dedicated Blu-ray player?

This is exactly what I am thinking. I am not exactly mainstream in my choices with technology, but a Vudu box wasnt even a consideration for me because of the above reasons.

The new HDX format is great. I traded in my BR player for a 6mo experiment, so far Im happy. When a movie becomes available for rent, I can tell my box to remotely download it from any pc, then watch it whenever I want. For me, this is a replacement to Netflix (got tired of waiting on new flicks) and a BR player. As far as streaming goes, my Directv HDDVR does that.

You gotta remember, Vudu is still young, and those apple fans can say what they want about Apple TV, but at the end of the day, the AppleTV movie PQ aint so hot. Jobs also just stated that itll still be a "hobby" in 09, so its another mediocore apple product I wont buy.

And BTW, who the hell cares about watching you tube, thats pretty lame reasoning. Vudu has one purpose, watching movies without having to leave your home, and at their current pace, theyll have more HD movies than Apple soon.

^ I got nothing against Vudu or AppleTV, but I seriously don't get the pricing scheme.

If you watch 10-20 movies a month, are you going to replace your <$20 a month Netflix with $50-$100/month for their PPV scheme?

If you only watch 5 movies a month, you're not really a "hardcore" movie watcher, so are you going to drop a couple hundred bucks on a Vudu/AppleTV box and then still pay $25/month?

Note I am assuming $5 PPV prices.

Sorry, but I can't afford $100 a month to watch movies, even if it's tons more convenient than Netflix. I'd probably be willing to pay $40 (still twice as much as Netflix), but not much more. So they either need to cut prices pretty much in half, or offer a buffet plan to get my business.

Again, I really hope these services take off as the potential and convenience is astounding, but I just don't see how they can compete at these prices. Of course, I said that about a certain other technology that recently beat out the "affordable" option, so don't listen to me.

No way to watch 10-20 on Netflix, they throttle you.

I'll gladly pay $5.99/movie so I can watch it when Im ready. Too many times with Netflix I was sitting around thinking "man, sure would be nice to have that movie"

^ I got nothing against Vudu or AppleTV, but I seriously don't get the pricing scheme.

If you watch 10-20 movies a month, are you going to replace your <$20 a month Netflix with $50-$100/month for their PPV scheme?

If you only watch 5 movies a month, you're not really a "hardcore" movie watcher, so are you going to drop a couple hundred bucks on a Vudu/AppleTV box and then still pay $25/month?

Note I am assuming $5 PPV prices.

Sorry, but I can't afford $100 a month to watch movies, even if it's tons more convenient than Netflix. I'd probably be willing to pay $40 (still twice as much as Netflix), but not much more. So they either need to cut prices pretty much in half, or offer a buffet plan to get my business.

Again, I really hope these services take off as the potential and convenience is astounding, but I just don't see how they can compete at these prices. Of course, I said that about a certain other technology that recently beat out the "affordable" option, so don't listen to me.
If you watch that many movies the best bet would be to get on a Netflix plan and have something like the AppleTV. Netflix gives you lots of movies, but AppleTV gives you instant gratification. That way you can watch new movies on AppleTV rather than waiting on your Netflix queue. Also, if you are into HD you can get limited Blu-ray via Netflix and semi-HD video on AppleTV for those titles that are not on Blu-ray.

Since I turned into an HD bigot I cancelled my Netflix subscription after waiting too long too often. I now use a combination of AppleTV HD titles and Blu-ray movies that I purchase.

I just see these internet services as very complementary to rent or purchase plans. I like the idea of being able to browse new movies on AppleTV when there is nothing else to watch. I especially like the fact that I don't have monthy fees with the AppleTV. Sure the AppleTV is a bit expensive, but it does more than rental movies. It can stream home videos, photos and music from my computer. It can access photos on the internet as well as Youtube videos. It does quite a bit for the price.

yep, pretty hard to keep netflix from throttling your shipments if you start exceeding what they consider "normal" usage for your plan.

It only took them 3 weeks to slow me down on my 2 out at time plan. In 3 weeks I managed to get 16 movies in about 23 day IIRC and mysteriously, my next 3 shipments took 5 days to arrive each one arriving on Friday, mailed back on Saturday, received Monday, no shipment notice until Thursday.

Right now the only things holding me back on Vudu are:

No local best buys have one that I can see in person
Don't like that it's vague what happens when the hard drive dies. I am sure I can dd it or something, but the lack of any info on the website bothers me on what the recourse is for failed hardware. I sure as hell won't buy another device just to get a $80 harddrive that works.

I am actually starting to lean AppleTv at this point cause I know I can replace/upgarde the drive and I have seen the in action. But either way, it will be Jan 2009 I think before I make a decision unless I find a deal somewhere like the Vudu Bestbuy $200 credit deal (again, none in store and I am just stingy and don't want to pay best buy to ship it to me when there is a store locally)

Of course I could just not buy anything and start using my Tivo Amazon Unbox, but I would really like and HD option to complement my netflix/roku setup.

If you watch that many movies the best bet would be to get on a Netflix plan and have something like the AppleTV. Netflix gives you lots of movies, but AppleTV gives you instant gratification. That way you can watch new movies on AppleTV rather than waiting on your Netflix queue. Also, if you are into HD you can get limited Blu-ray via Netflix and semi-HD video on AppleTV for those titles that are not on Blu-ray.

Since I turned into an HD bigot I cancelled my Netflix subscription after waiting too long too often. I now use a combination of AppleTV HD titles and Blu-ray movies that I purchase.

I just see these internet services as very complementary to rent or purchase plans. I like the idea of being able to browse new movies on AppleTV when there is nothing else to watch. I especially like the fact that I don't have monthy fees with the AppleTV. Sure the AppleTV is a bit expensive, but it does more than rental movies. It can stream home videos, photos and music from my computer. It can access photos on the internet as well as Youtube videos. It does quite a bit for the price.
or with the xbox360 you can have both netflix (instant streaming) and their rental "hd" movies (which covers most everything apple has). and you can also play games as well as do everything else you mentioned appletv does.

now to have netflix instant service will require xbox live gold but thats a pretty small charge.

but if you are looking at a box to do multiple things and netflix streaming is one of those the 360 is the best choice out there currently.

The way I see Apple vs Vudu is, for tv shows Apple rules in content. For new movies, they both offer the same and have the same dates for the most part, but the HDX PQ of Vudu rules.

Price on both is high, I wonder how long before we'll see a Netflix style rental plan from VOD?

My move from media to VOD was slow because I had to allow for the 30 day rental delay window to catch up to the movies I had seen, but Im there now and have 1-2 new movies to rent every week now. Looking forward to it.

or with the xbox360 you can have both netflix (instant streaming) and their rental "hd" movies (which covers most everything apple has). and you can also play games as well as do everything else you mentioned appletv does.

now to have netflix instant service will require xbox live gold but thats a pretty small charge.

but if you are looking at a box to do multiple things and netflix streaming is one of those the 360 is the best choice out there currently.
Different strokes for different folks. Clearly the xbox360 is the way to go if you want gaming. You probably get more flexibility for power use type media streaming with the xbox360.

The AppleTV is a very elegant solution for just accessing media -- that is all it does. For example, it is really easy for just about anybody to access their iTunes library on your Mac or PC. It is also lopw-powered and silent.

Also, from the comparos Ive seen, the Xbox HD movies are sharper than Apples offering.

Also, from the comparos Ive seen, the Xbox HD movies are sharper than Apples offering.
Good point. I haven't seen the HD movies on the Xbox, but the AppleTV is only 720p and at a fairly low bit rate. HD is definitely the Achilles heal of the AppleTV. I sure hope Apple fixes this sooner rather than later.

I love the Vudu box, but if Apple actually took the AppleTv seriously and came out with a 1080p version of a high end encode like Vudu's HDX, it might be the king. Especially with the HD tv show content.

Yep, Vudu for me wins quality and that is what keeps me from pulling the trigger on Apple TV....

Cmon vudupatrick, give me some more info so I might invest in your product and proclaim it to all who ask that Vudu is the best solution... :)

Just spoke with someone at the vudu forum on Apple HD vs Vudu HD (not HDX). Sharpness is about the same, color on Vudu may be better, and Vudu has instant start on HD movies with 4mbps. HDX is no contest, but as stated, ATV rules the roost in tv and anything ipod related.

Looks like if you require movies and tv (and PQ matters), you need need two of something (Vudu/ATX/XBox/Amazon)

Ill be glad when we have one box that offers quality downloads of tv and movies. I have to wonder if Vudu isnt considering getting more into tv shows.

i was not able to get hdmi and component to work - as soon as i plugged hdmi in - component shut off

i was not able to get hdmi and component to work - as soon as i plugged hdmi in - component shut off


Richard,

HD over component and simultaneous component and HDMI are limited to the VUDU XL and only with the purchase and activation of the software package XLS1. IP control is also part of XLS1 but through December 31, it is included on all XLs.

Vudupatick, did you see my questions? Are you just choosing not to answer them?
Even the simple one about what happens when the hard drive dies? What is the process to get the $80 part working again? I looked on the website, the FAQ's were slightly above useless so that is why I am asking here. Really it should not be hard for a potential customer to find this info on the website, but no query with the words "repair" "replace" "service" returned any results.

The vudu forums are even more vague on the capability to actually get purchased content back in the event of hardware failure. 1 year limits, 2 year limits are kicked around over there and any valid concern is merely brushed aside as fodder by people over there. It's almost like a site affiliated with AVS... question the company and management and you are immediately labeled as a troublemaker.

If the info is there, please direct me to it as my search terms are not liked much by the search engine. Really it should not be hard to find what the policy is in the event of hardware failure relating to:
Do I have to buy another box at $299 for what will most likely be just the harddrive
What exactly is the policy on restoring purchases (again the forums are all over the place with no definitive answer)

He's in marketing and may not know. There some engineers over at the forum, they might have a better answer.


Im betting its like dvr's and such, you send it back.

Vudupatick, did you see my questions? Are you just choosing not to answer them?
Even the simple one about what happens when the hard drive dies? What is the process to get the $80 part working again? I looked on the website, the FAQ's were slightly above useless so that is why I am asking here. Really it should not be hard for a potential customer to find this info on the website, but no query with the words "repair" "replace" "service" returned any results.

The vudu forums are even more vague on the capability to actually get purchased content back in the event of hardware failure. 1 year limits, 2 year limits are kicked around over there and any valid concern is merely brushed aside as fodder by people over there. It's almost like a site affiliated with AVS... question the company and management and you are immediately labeled as a troublemaker.

If the info is there, please direct me to it as my search terms are not liked much by the search engine. Really it should not be hard to find what the policy is in the event of hardware failure relating to:
Do I have to buy another box at $299 for what will most likely be just the harddrive
What exactly is the policy on restoring purchases (again the forums are all over the place with no definitive answer)

I saw your questions. The hard drive is not user replaceable (and I don't believe dd would work). I'm trying to get the correct information to give you about out of warranty repairs.

Thank you for looking into it.

However, while I don't own the box, I have a hard time believing that given the opportunity, that someone could not figure out how to replace the drive. heck I have replaced drives on pretty much every home entertainment device I have owned that has had a hard drive (Dish DVR, Directv DVR, Tivo and so on) though various methods. Only Sony and their DHG-HDD series of OTA receivers have eluded me. And that is what worries me. Sony charges a ridculous price to replace the drive (If you can even get them to do it anymore) and you sit back just knowing that drive cost is nill to them.

I understand obviously that the whole DRM crap fest is part of your answers, but if vudu offers a reasonable repair option and clarifies the policy on purchased content being re-downloaded for no fee (1 year, 2 year, lifetime?) I am in, if not, then I can't justify my cash going to Vudu.

He's in marketing and may not know. There some engineers over at the forum, they might have a better answer.
Im betting its like dvr's and such, you send it back.

I tried the (are they official for support or just user info and hosted by the company?) forums and they didn't seem to address the question. I emailed vudu through the support page yesterday morning on these questions and am still waiting for a response.

The big thing that I am seeing regarding purchased titles is this from the website

If VUDU has to repair or replace your VUDU Equipment, or if content is lost due to a failure of the hard drive in the VUDU Equipment, VUDU will, to the best of its ability and within the rights granted to it by its content licensor's, replace all purchased (but not rented) movies
or other purchased (but not rented) entertainment content that you acquired from VUDU and that is or are stored on your VUDU Equipment ("Content"), for a period of one (1) year from the date of such Content's purchase."

Does the Vudu Vault service make the 1 year thing no longer an issue?

Also, looking at this thread over on the vudu forums
http://forum.vudu.com/showthread.php?t=2000

is Nded a vudu rep? Cause his answer in post 3 makes me believe that he is, but the way he answers later on is not someting I would want to deal with if I was a customer.

I just got a Vudu box last week, and I am impressed. I was holding out for PQ, and the HDX content knocked me off the fence. I have watched several titles in HD, and HDX, and can say that HDX is almost as good as Blu-Ray. I did an A/B compare with a Blu-Ray title I own, and I could see just a hair more detail on the Blu-Ray, in freeze frames, but I really had to look for it. This is on my 133" screen.

I have spent many years with Netflix, and it is just a real pain in the behind, trying to get SD content, not to mention HD content, for me, was almost impossible. Then, when I finally got it, some times it was the wrong disc, the disc was scratched etc. I finally gave up, and just started buying all my movies. This started getting expensive, and there were plenty of movies I just wanted to watch once. For me, Vudu is well worth the money. Now I just hope they up the content, and release dates for rentals.

Geez Free, netflix has been great for me, but like your experience with neflix, I had the same issues with blockbuster online service.

I am very close to going with vudu for their quality, I just need a few more questions answered. I am one of those consumers a big box store employee hates and I admit it. I like to ask ALOT of questions :)

I am very close to going with vudu for their quality, I just need a few more questions answered. I am one of those consumers a big box store employee hates and I admit it. I like to ask ALOT of questions :)

I like my XL but it is addictive: you can spend a lot of money with just a few clicks of the remote :)

I would still like to see Vudu add HD Test Patterns and an active screen saver of cover art

I bought the XL through a local integrator and installed it myself; controlled by an RTI remote system: also have the Apple TV

[I have no connection with Vudu other than as a customer]

I hear ya on the spending, Im glad I got the $200 credit to get it out of my system :)

I already second your motion at Vudu forums for the test patterns.

Netflix is going to start to stream HD titles to standalone boxes (the little $100 Roku player and $400 combo Blu-ray/Netflix players from both LGE and Samsung) and Xbox 360s (when the "New Xbox Experience" launches next month); the HD content will not be available on PCs or Macs (see this (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6200292.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;2)). Quality and quantity of content is unknown, but it will apparently require a significant broadband pipe--8-to-10 Mbps.

I've used Netflix "Watch Instantly" some, on my PC (the laptop that I'm composing this on is in my HT system, connected to a 46" 1080p LCD panel). The SD quality is nothing to write home about, but I've used it to re-watch and/or catch up on some television here and there, and to watch a few indie movies that weren't all that visual and which I couldn't have watched in HD anyway. It's definitely worth every penny I've been asked to pay for it so far :D. It'll be interesting to try it on Xbox.

I imagine their HD will be soft like Apples. If they put up an HDX quality video, you can bet it wont be free.

Netflix could make it interesting will a set fee download plan though.

yeah from what I have seen HDX quality will be hard to beat with a streaming only delivery.

I still am looking forward to it and maybe this will speed up amazon and tivo with their HD plans.

....snip.... is Nded a vudu rep? Cause his answer in post 3 makes me believe that he is, but the way he answers later on is not someting I would want to deal with if I was a customer.

SatinKzo - No, I'm not (nor have I ever been) a Vudu employee. I think the later on post that bothered you was my sarcastic response to an irritating poster ,which would be easier to understand if you had been following the forum live at the time, where the other guy was constantly bombarding the Vudu forum with gripes because he is obsessed with complaining about Vudu (he loves his @TV hobby gear). The folks at Vudu bent over backwards to try and please the other guy, but he just kept on disrupting the forum. Eventually he was banned for life for being a troublemaker.

I would be happy to independently answer any questions you have about getting a Vudu.

SatinKzo - No, I'm not (nor have I ever been) a Vudu employee. I think the later on post that bothered you would be easier to understand if you had been following the forum live at the time, where the other guy was constantly bombarding the Vudu forum with gripes because he is obsessed with complaining about Vudu (he loves his @TV hobby gear). The folks at Vudu bent over backwards to try and please the other guy, but he just kept on disrupting the forum. Eventually he was banned for life for being a troublemaker.

Very good to know. Thank you for your reply. I was not sure and that is why I asked.

I really want to get vudu but I am still waiting for my questions to be answered either here, over at vudu forums, or in an email reply to them that I submitted on Monday (Oct 27th) morning.

I have only gotten 1 answer that the hard drive is not user replaceable, but every manufacturer says that and will not support it and I don't expect a company employee to tell me it can be done even if it can be so I am fine with that answer. But I do have other questions.

Very good to know. Thank you for your reply. I was not sure and that is why I asked.

I really want to get vudu but I am still waiting for my questions to be answered either here, over at vudu forums, or in an email reply to them that I submitted on Monday (Oct 27th) morning.

I have only gotten 1 answer that the hard drive is not user replaceable, but every manufacturer says that and will not support it and I don't expect a company employee to tell me it can be done even if it can be so I am fine with that answer. But I do have other questions.

I have not yet attempted to replace/duplicate the hard drive, so I can't report on how this might work in the field. From a purely technical perspective you gotta believe a dedicated tech with the right gear could do it, but I can't tell you how.

Do you have any other open Vudu questions?

yes nded, I do.

Can you read back on the purchase replacement policy question I had a couple posts up (#123)?

Also, do you happen to know what Vudu's policy/charge is for drive replacement when it does fail? Again, I don't want to pay through the nose for a sub $100 part.

*Btw, in my comment about your reply on the vudu forums to the one user... No issues with how you replied I was just thining "man is this guy a vudu employee? I wouldn't want my employees posting that in public to a customer". But going back and looking at other posts I can see why it appears he ticked off a few people there. Nothing wrong with a fellow customer telling someone to scale it back though.

yes nded, I do.

Can you read back on the purchase replacement policy question I had a couple posts up (#123)?

Also, do you happen to know what Vudu's policy/charge is for drive replacement when it does fail? Again, I don't want to pay through the nose for a sub $100 part.

You may find the reading at http://www.cepro.com/article/vudu_plans_1000_hd_titles_lifetime_content_recovery/ to be helpful in your decision making process.

AFAIK the hard drive replacement cost hasn't been publicy addressed, as we just now reached the point where the first Vudu's sold to the public are 1 year old and are out of the warranty period. I expect that VUDUPatrick will get back to us fairly quickly with an official answer.

Thank you Nded, I appreciate your responses.

I must say also, thank you Vudu. you have pushed the competition lately with quality. Looking at all the netflix partnerships now (tivo just added). I am wondering if Tivo/netlfix could match HDX quality since they would essentially have the same hard drive buffer/storage as vudu!

One more question for anyone...
Is vudu still planning Demo kiosks? I thought I read they were not just selling through bestbuy but havine demo systems there... I still can't find one in stock in any bestbuy store within 300 miles of me and I just want to go see one in person. All I have now are screenshots and reviews from users.

SatinKzo - where are you located?

SatinKzo - where are you located?

Kalamazoo, Michigan.

Bestbuy website states no Vudu in any stores in MI, IN, IL, OH. Vudu webstie says they have demos in chicago.

Btw, I'm actually not willing to drive 300 miles to see one :)

I'll ask around to see if I can find somebody in the beta tester program with a Vudu near Kalamazoo, Michigan willing to host a demonstration. However, you might want to take advantage of the 30-Day moneyback guarantee on Vudu's. Just go ahead and order one from Best Buy (so you get your $200 credit), and if you aren't satisifed send it back. The only thing you are risking is the cost of the movies you rented (and perhaps return shipping which would be negligible).

Nded, I sent you a PM with a question related to your last post.

yeah from what I have seen HDX quality will be hard to beat with a streaming only delivery.

I still am looking forward to it and maybe this will speed up amazon and tivo with their HD plans.

The problem with this statement is that the majority of consumers do not care about Blu-ray/HDX quality. The number of people watching full length shows on their laptops is growing dramatically. Availability vs. quality, and availability wins every time. Netflix is going to take over this market. The Netflix streaming player is going to be available for every platform and close-to-DVD-quality is perfect for the majority of consumers.

They just announced that the Netflix streaming player is coming to TiVo S3's and HD's. Its coming to 360's and Blu-ray players and they have a stand alone box. You can use it on PC's and soon to be Mac's.

Where can Vudu compete? I can't figure it out. Their business model is non existent. They offer a service that doesn't add any value over the competition. All it does is allow you to purchase movies. It doesn't play music or photos. It just doesn't compete and it's expensive for what it does.

For the purists out there that want the best quality then there will be Blu-ray.

Well, I don't know if there is a "problem" with my statement....

I expect netflix HD quality to be comparable to Vudu, but not vudu HDX at first. I would dearly love for it to offer the HDX quality at first trust me. But I don't see them being able to match it on the non-mass storage based players (Roku, Samsung players). So netflix HD will be HD-lite at first as my best guess and probably HD-lite only on the streaming only players with limited storage. Unless I have missed somewhere a direct head to head comparison against the netflix HD.

As for the purists and guys like me, yes, BD is the way to go to get the best PQ available to the consumer mass market, but sometimes I don't care if say Baby mama is in HD-lite or in Full HD glory from Blu-ray, I just wanna watch it NOW in the best possible PQ that is available NOW :)

*disclaimer, baby mama came to mind, I don't actually care if I watch it in SD or HD or in No-D :)

I think people understate how many there are that actually care about PQ.

Secondly, there are multiple music services (Amazon, Walmart, Apple), why cant there be more than one for movies (and there should be)?? Dont forget that the watch now content is crap as far as new stuff goes, and the HD will be too. Yeah, its great if you get bored and are sitting in an airport. When Netflix decides to go new release download, youll be paying for it just like Apple and Vudu. Why do you think they are putting it in all these boxes? So they have more people to charge ;)

Netflix didnt take over the rental market (BB Online is doing fine) and even though Netflix might be Walmart, but there is still room for Target.


We all began to think that HDDVD and BR would stand side by side, only thing that killed HDDVD was the studios.Now, to keep revenue up, studios are looking into selling movies any way they can, the more download services the better. I for one dropped both Netflix and BB Online and strictly use my Vudu box.

There's nothing wrong with multiple music services. DRM has virtually been removed from the content so they are all the same.

DRM will never be removed from video and it will drastically hurt digital download adoption.

I cant blame em on the video, so it doesnt bother me. Studio spends 100 mil on a movie, just for people to steal it.

I have no problem with studios protecting their investments. Not to turn this into a big debate in this thread cause it doesn't belong here. Not sure what it is about movies and music but people seem t be inherently dishonest when it comes to them. For some reason even the most law abiding people think it's ok to make copies of rentals instead of buying a copy.

I do believe that you should be able to make copies of stuff you own though for real backup purposes, not to share with friends.

I do believe that you should be able to make copies of stuff you own though for real backup purposes, not to share with friends.

I completely agree with this statement, and it goes along with your earlier question. What happens if you buy a movie and the HDD craps out??

I can see myself buying some big movies like Batman/Iron Man, but only when they are released to buy in HDX.

I have no problem with studios protecting their investments. Not to turn this into a big debate in this thread cause it doesn't belong here. Not sure what it is about movies and music but people seem t be inherently dishonest when it comes to them. For some reason even the most law abiding people think it's ok to make copies of rentals instead of buying a copy.


You go to the store and buy a DVD. What makes you think that you should be able to make copies of that single movie that you purchased into other formats? The studio sold you the right to view it on DVD, not on your iPod, mobile phone, or in HD. If you want to view it in those formats then you should pay for the movie in those formats.

It's no different that software. You purchase a license to install MS Office on your Office PC. But, you also have laptops, PC's in the kids rooms, etc. You don't have the right to install it on what you didn't pay for. If you want to install it on those computers then you need to pay for more licenses.

Now don't get me wrong, I rip movies and encode them to multiple formats. I don't think it's right but I couldn't care less.

You go to the store and buy a DVD. What makes you think that you should be able to make copies of that single movie that you purchased into other formats? The studio sold you the right to view it on DVD, not on your iPod, mobile phone, or in HD. If you want to view it in those formats then you should pay for the movie in those formats.

It's no different that software. You purchase a license to install MS Office on your Office PC. But, you also have laptops, PC's in the kids rooms, etc. You don't have the right to install it on what you didn't pay for. If you want to install it on those computers then you need to pay for more licenses.

Now don't get me wrong, I rip movies and encode them to multiple formats. I don't think it's right but I couldn't care less.

I think increasingly we will find people could not care less about the text of fine print hidden inside shrink wrapped boxes and mostly unenforceable as far as what consumers do with those boxes inside their own home. If I pick up a box, carry it to the register, and pay for it then as far as I am concerned I bought it.

We should limit copyright law to acts of massive unauthorized distribution, especially for profit. Nobody cares about enforcing the rest of it. It is not worth the effort or cost to society.

Do we want our tax dollars spent enforcing a violation of fine print in a shrink wrap license that nobody reads, or is even given a chance to read before purchase?

- Tom

And since my previous post will probably get deleted... (yep, only lasted 45 minutes?)

here is something I hope can stay...

VuduPatrick where are you? I never got any further info from you and no one has responded to my questions that I posted through the vudu support form on the vudu website. It said I should get a response withing a day or two I believe.

VuduDoug, are you associated with Vudu in anyway? I see you have been on, but have not commented yet.

Mark, You get tired quickly, maybe you need some time off (countdown to my vacation is started now)

Why have a vudu thread here then? I think my quesitons are good questions for everyone who reads this thread. Is open discussion about a product is not welcome here? If Vudupatrick offers to answer questions here and I take him up on it and press on some issues, isn't it good for the consumers here?

*ok, wtf, Markrubin had a post here just a second ago telling me to head over to Vudu forums instead of here at AVS and I reply and now his post is gone. You guys are gonna make me look like a nutcase replying to phantom posts. I gotta start quoting the person I am replying to for proof.

Hehe.

You go to the store and buy a DVD.
...
Now don't get me wrong, I rip movies and encode them to multiple formats. I don't think it's right but I couldn't care less.

I see your point but I have to strongly disagree.

I am all for artists getting paid for their work, be it music, movies or games, photographers or any other medium.

What I am completely against is the exact idea you suggested. That the artists are entitled to being paid multiple times for the same intellectual property simply because its in various forms and formats. There is nothing different from a song on a CD vs the same song in mp3 format. There is nothing artistically different from a movie on DVD from the version I can download from Amazon or Neflix. The artist has not done any more creative work, and it is my opinion that they are not entitled for any more of my cash.

If they want to make me pay more for the HD version of a movie on Bluray as opposed to the DVD version, or a crappy version I can watch on my Ipod... fine with me. If they want to charge extra for a limited edition movie with audio commentary that is great. If they want to charge more for a high quality mp3 that is fine.

But once I pay for it once, somewhere, I should have full rights to do as I feel, short of redistributing it. If I want to take that Bluray and rip it to my central Net server in the house, or load it to my Ipod, or load it onto my laptop for a plane ride, then I should be allowed to do so. If I want to take that mp3 and turn it into a ringtone for my phone, I should be able to. I have paid the artist for his work, and as such I should be able to choose how I enjoy it. If I dont have a Bluray player, then I pay a little less for DVD. And if I have neither, then I can buy the lowly Ipod version. But ultimately I own that piece of media, much as I own a lamp or the device I play the media on.

This is how I treat and use all the media I buy. Be it music, pictures, or movies, as far as personal rights are concerned, I assume I have full rights. I am an intellectual patent attorney, and I can tell you even the industry is widely split on this issue. Some agree with you (mainly the labels and MPAA) and some agree with me (many artists and most attorneys in IP I have worked with).

Back on topic, rented Journey To The Center Of The Earth, on my Vudu box in HD, and it looked like crap. First title I have been really disappointed with. I read a review on the BD, and it should have been decent looking, but this looked worse than DVD quality. I am wondering what determines the picture quality, since some of the titles (even HD, not HDX ones) I have seen looked pretty decent.

It did look a little funny. Makes me glad that HDX starts really rolling out in Nov for new releases.

Hey guys, can you be a little clearer on what you mean about Journey looking like "crap". I get the idea abut it being DVD quality (which really isn't bad, but not if it's billed as HD), but was it fuzzy? Pixelated? bad color (although it has been mentioned elsewhere that even the BD looked funky)?

The daylight scenes, especially the end looked good, but the underground scenes had whacked out skin tones and funky colors. I get from the review that this wa spart of the look, I just dont think the HD encode was very good.

You really see the lack of PQ in HD during dark scenes, and I think this was part of the problem. I also watched 88 minutes this weekend in HD, and it looked very good.

FWIW, I rented/watched Journey HD on Vudu Friday night and it looked good to me. Not sure what problems you encoutered Free. Could you give us a more detailed description of what you saw and didn't like/expect?

The contrast too high and made the movie look washed out at times. After reading the bluray review, I think this was just an aspect of the movie. Like I said, the last 5 minutes in the vineyard and some of the beginning scenes looked great.

Along with the contrast being too high, and making it looked washed out, I thought that much of it looked really soft and fuzzy. I don't know if it was intended to look that way, but it appeared to be really low resolution. It may be because I watch exclusively HD material, and haven't watched a DVD in a long time, but I remember thinking to myself at one point that it looked almost like VHS.

I agree there were a few scenes, including the vinyard scene at the end that looked much better, but still looked kind of muddy or mushy in terms of detail. The Blu-Ray review I read gave it 4 stars for video, so I assumed it was a VUDU issue.

There were a few underground scenes that were exceptional fuzzy, I just chalked it too the high contrast. It was almost like a jacked gamma setting on my old Sony RPLCD.

By the way, my display is a 133" High Power screen with a Sim2 C3x1080 3chp DLP, so my system is particularly revealing of picture quality issues.

I guess I could swap you my 110" DLP system that is not so revealing - this could alleviate your pain. ;-)

Hey moderators - how about forking the last few pages of this thread into a new "Vudu Talk" thread?

I agree, we need a VUDU thread. I would rather chat with AVS videophiles here, than the people over on the VUDU forum, who might not be as concerned about video quality.

Hey moderators - how about forking the last few pages of this thread into a new "Vudu Talk" thread?

a Master VUDU Thread would be a great idea :)

feel free to name it what you like

anyway know if amazon video on demand would work with a PS/3 with media center and/or tversity? same question for netflix.

a Master VUDU Thread would be a great idea :)

feel free to name it what you like

New Vudu thread here at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1081645

A good forking of the last few pages would be welcome to jump start the discussion.

New Vudu thread here at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1081645

A good forking of the last few pages would be welcome to jump start the discussion.

Thank you

I tried to copy some posts over but the software puts them in chronological order: so that will not work :o

Still I think the idea of a dedicated VUDU thread is a good idea

never mind

I see your point but I have to strongly disagree.

I am all for artists getting paid for their work, be it music, movies or games, photographers or any other medium.

What I am completely against is the exact idea you suggested. That the artists are entitled to being paid multiple times for the same intellectual property simply because its in various forms and formats. There is nothing different from a song on a CD vs the same song in mp3 format. There is nothing artistically different from a movie on DVD from the version I can download from Amazon or Neflix. The artist has not done any more creative work, and it is my opinion that they are not entitled for any more of my cash.

If they want to make me pay more for the HD version of a movie on Bluray as opposed to the DVD version, or a crappy version I can watch on my Ipod... fine with me. If they want to charge extra for a limited edition movie with audio commentary that is great. If they want to charge more for a high quality mp3 that is fine.

But once I pay for it once, somewhere, I should have full rights to do as I feel, short of redistributing it. If I want to take that Bluray and rip it to my central Net server in the house, or load it to my Ipod, or load it onto my laptop for a plane ride, then I should be allowed to do so. If I want to take that mp3 and turn it into a ringtone for my phone, I should be able to. I have paid the artist for his work, and as such I should be able to choose how I enjoy it. If I dont have a Bluray player, then I pay a little less for DVD. And if I have neither, then I can buy the lowly Ipod version. But ultimately I own that piece of media, much as I own a lamp or the device I play the media on.

This is how I treat and use all the media I buy. Be it music, pictures, or movies, as far as personal rights are concerned, I assume I have full rights. I am an intellectual patent attorney, and I can tell you even the industry is widely split on this issue. Some agree with you (mainly the labels and MPAA) and some agree with me (many artists and most attorneys in IP I have worked with).

I've noticed that almost all of the new release Blu-ray and DVDs these days have an iTunes Digital Copy file on either the main disc or on a second disc. Seems like a nice compromise, the Blu-ray disc for the home theater and the iTunes copy for your iPhone or laptop.

I've noticed that almost all of the new release Blu-ray and DVDs these days have an iTunes Digital Copy file on either the main disc or on a second disc. Seems like a nice compromise, the Blu-ray disc for the home theater and the iTunes copy for your iPhone or laptop.

And this is the right direction we should be heading. The bulk of the cost of a DVD/Bluray is licensing the artistic part, the movie, and double paying for it to get it in two formats is ridiculous when it comes to personal use.

It's pretty simple: the SD material is the same as what people buy or rent on iTunes for iPhones and iPods. Since Apple only officially supports video at 640x480 on these devices (I believe the iPhone/iPod touch technically support more), the company can't go above that if it wants the video files to be ubiquitous.

That's a hard limit, and it means that widescreen videos have to run at lower than SD if they're widescreen (for example, 640x360). Apple is starting fresh with HD and so can go to a true 1280x720 resolution along with better encoding if necessary.

Both the iPod Classic and iPhone will run 720x480 anamorphic.

I forgot about this thread until that last comment :).

The "New Xbox Experience" dashboard upgrade launched on Wednesday, bringing with it Netflix Watch Instantly. This gives streaming access to most of a growing 12,000 title subset of Netflix's catalog (apparently some stuff licensed for PC streaming is not yet licensed for streaming to other devices, most notably some stuff from Sony's Columbia Pictures library).

At launch, some 300 titles can be streamed in HD (presumably 720p24), though you have to have a high-speed link to do it. I note that the same multi-bar "signal strength" (connection speed) system exists for HD streaming as for SD--with SD, PQ drops quickly as you get fewer bars. I was stuck with a wireless G link at a maximum of about 3.5 Mbps when the service became available on Wednesday, and was able to get 3 (out of 4) bar HD service; this morning an electrician came and ran a Cat 5e cable from the router to my room and I'm connecting at something approaching the advertised 10 Mbps TWC standard cable modem service, so I'm always getting a 4 bar HD stream when available; I imagine that a rock-solid 5-6 Mbps would get it.

PQ at 4 bars is acceptable, though nothing to write home about. Having not experienced VUDU's standard quality (not the HDX) or Apple TV's HD, I can't compare. It's probably better than upconverted standard-def DVD. They use an interesting mechanism involving still-frames separated by 10 seconds for 2X, 4X, 8X, 16X and 32X FF and REW (Dave Zatz' blog has a demonstration of the Xbox Watch Instantly player in a YouTube video shown on this (http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2008-10/the-new-xbox-experience-with-netflix/) page, with thumbnail FF/REW show at around 2:14). I think it's kind of cool looking, though the lack of fine grain control might irk me at some point.

It's worth noting that the Xbox, like all standalone Watch Instantly players, requires the use of a PC with net access with which to visit Netflix' site and set up an "Instant Queue"--you cannot freely browse Netflix's library with the Xbox player's GUI.

In all, it's a nice addition, particularly since it comes free with nearly all Netflix rental plans. A similar feature is also coming to Series3 TiVos sometime in December, which I'll probably prefer if it works as well--the TiVo runs in virtual silence, which cannot be said of my Xbox 360, a launch model which is somewhat cooling-challenged :D.

I did a search of this thread for "projector" and nothing came up. Can VUDU be used with a projector? I have a 720p projector. My video is HDMI but the audio is optical into the receiver. Is this possible with the VUDU? Also my screen is 14' wide so I am concerned about the quality of the image. DVDs look good and Blue Ray looks really good. How does VUDU compare with either of these.
Thanks-

I did a search of this thread for "projector" and nothing came up. Can VUDU be used with a projector? I have a 720p projector. My video is HDMI but the audio is optical into the receiver. Is this possible with the VUDU? Also my screen is 14' wide so I am concerned about the quality of the image. DVDs look good and Blue Ray looks really good. How does VUDU compare with either of these.
Thanks-
Hi, yes Vudu works very well with projectors; I have the DLA RS1. Because Vudu actually pumps out 1080 you will not see all of the glory with your 720p. My screen is almost as large as yours and viewing HDX is more than awesome... it is hard for many to believe the crispness on a screen that large. You get spoiled quickly.

Scanning this and the other forum will reveal the extensive discussion and comparison of Vudu's top format "HDX" to BluRay. Vudu's HD and SD are perfectly fine and dependent on the quality of the studio's transfer. You will always want HDX when the movie requires splash/flash (Ironman, Batman).


BTW, cross-posting the same question into two different forums is seriously frowned upon on every board.

Hi, yes Vudu works very well with projectors; I have the DLA RS1. Because Vudu actually pumps out 1080 you will not see all of the glory with your 720p. My screen is almost as large as yours and viewing HDX is more than awesome... it is hard for many to believe the crispness on a screen that large. You get spoiled quickly.

Scanning this and the other forum will reveal the extensive discussion and comparison of Vudu's top format "HDX" to BluRay. Vudu's HD and SD are perfectly fine and dependent on the quality of the studio's transfer. You will always want HDX when the movie requires splash/flash (Ironman, Batman).

So do "you" feel HDX is "better" than Blue ray with your 1080p projector?

At the time I purchased my 720p I had not seen a better image including several 1080p projectors I considered. I haven't seen one yet I like better but I haven't recently spent a lot of time searching. When I see one I like better I am ready to move up.

BTW, cross-posting the same question into two different forums is seriously frowned upon on every board.

I know. I use to get a warning message but they have seem to have stopped. As different folks read different forums/threads you get a broader range of responses. I will remove this post once the responses stop if it makes anyone happier.

I would like more information on the audio aspects. Does Vudu produce 7.1?
How about the new codecs DTS-MA/True HD, etc.?
Thanks for your info. and concern.-

I know. I use to get a warning message but they have seem to have stopped. As different folks read different forums/threads you get a broader range of responses. I will remove this post once the responses stop if it makes anyone happier.

I would like more information on the audio aspects. Does Vudu produce 7.1?
How about the new codecs DTS-MA/True HD, etc.?
Thanks for your info. and concern.

All audio on VUDU titles is encoded for transport in DD+. The VUDU box transcodes the DD+ to DD for output over the optical out or HDMI 1.1 output.
Output is up to 5. 1 audio and the HDX titles are at 640kbs. The Hd and Sd titles are at a lower audio bitrate.

Aaron is correct, though our newer titles (since the HDX launch) are encoded with Dolby Digital (AC3) rather than DD+. Regarding the other formats (TrueHD, MA), our current hardware doesn't support them, unfortunately. Although, you should consider that these formats are going to be tricky for anyone to stream because they have significant bandwidth requirements, representing a sizable portion of the allocated video bandwidth.

Aaron is correct, though our newer titles (since the HDX launch) are encoded with Dolby Digital (AC3) rather than DD+. Regarding the other formats (TrueHD, MA), our current hardware doesn't support them, unfortunately. Although, you should consider that these formats are going to be tricky for anyone to stream because they have significant bandwidth requirements, representing a sizable portion of the allocated video bandwidth.

l like what you guys have done with the physical shape/style of the Vudu and with what it "will" do.

Are there any plans for 7.1 on the horizon?

I know there are pitifully few discs in 7.1, so Vudu's investment may not seem justified at this time, but there are lots of us out here that would like to hear our investment in rear speakers sound off more often.

I see your point but I have to strongly disagree.

I am all for artists getting paid for their work, be it music, movies or games, photographers or any other medium.

What I am completely against is the exact idea you suggested. That the artists are entitled to being paid multiple times for the same intellectual property simply because its in various forms and formats. There is nothing different from a song on a CD vs the same song in mp3 format. There is nothing artistically different from a movie on DVD from the version I can download from Amazon or Neflix. The artist has not done any more creative work, and it is my opinion that they are not entitled for any more of my cash.

If they want to make me pay more for the HD version of a movie on Bluray as opposed to the DVD version, or a crappy version I can watch on my Ipod... fine with me. If they want to charge extra for a limited edition movie with audio commentary that is great. If they want to charge more for a high quality mp3 that is fine.

But once I pay for it once, somewhere, I should have full rights to do as I feel, short of redistributing it. If I want to take that Bluray and rip it to my central Net server in the house, or load it to my Ipod, or load it onto my laptop for a plane ride, then I should be allowed to do so. If I want to take that mp3 and turn it into a ringtone for my phone, I should be able to. I have paid the artist for his work, and as such I should be able to choose how I enjoy it. If I dont have a Bluray player, then I pay a little less for DVD. And if I have neither, then I can buy the lowly Ipod version. But ultimately I own that piece of media, much as I own a lamp or the device I play the media on.

This is how I treat and use all the media I buy. Be it music, pictures, or movies, as far as personal rights are concerned, I assume I have full rights. I am an intellectual patent attorney, and I can tell you even the industry is widely split on this issue. Some agree with you (mainly the labels and MPAA) and some agree with me (many artists and most attorneys in IP I have worked with).

Bravo well said. Unfortunately the jail sentence and fine threats that we commoners have to endure in our own bedrooms have created this mass psychosis that copying a movie in any way or shape is bad, period.

Very sad to see our tube-head average Joes and Janes falling for this xxxx.

I haven't been able to find any kind of good analysis on the web, so I decided to do my own comparisons last night on a 60" Kuro 1080p/24fps capable plasma. Here is what I found...

When I had the resolution set at 1080p both boxes produced a very software image with SD movies. Both were much worse than DVD quality. However, when I changed the resolution of the Apple TV to 480p the image improved drastically. I would say that the image easily looked DVD quality. Interestingly, when I changed the Vudu to 480p I really could see not see any difference. One other thing is that I also noticed much better detail in shadows with the Apple TV.

If this title is representative this tells me a couple of things:

1) Apple has a much better encoding and decoding for SD content. I know that Apple got a bad warp for the iPod optimized movies -- but those are different from the SD videos you download directly to the Apple TV

2) The Apple TV scaling is poor quality, so you will only see the improved image when outputting at the native 480p resolution

I'll have to try this with a few other titles before drawing any hard conclusions. I also want to do a comparison with the HD streaming transfers for some catalog titles that cost less to rent. These little tests get expensive.:( Based on this one test it looks like the Apple TV is going to be the way for me to rent SD movies. I sure do wish the Apple TV had a source direct video mode as well as an interface as slick as Vudus. It will be interesting to see how the HD streaming compares since Vudu typically charges a $1 premium over Vudu.

Has anybody else done similar comparisons between the Apple TV and Vudu boxes?

UPDATE with HD comparision of Deja Vu:

What can I say I have too much curiosity. I just did a comparison of the streaming HD versions of Deja Vu for Apple TV and Vudu. I chose this title because the price was less than a new title. In addition, I have both the DVD and Blu-ray versions to compare to. The bottom line is that both looked very good. The Apple TV was outputting at the native 720p and the Vudu at native 1080p. The two images were almost too close to call, but when I did repeated viewing of specific scenes I could see that the Apple TV actually actually produced a more detailed image than the Vudu. I even compared these to the Blu-ray version to confirm that the Apple TV was accurately producing the detail. The HD streaming versions for both the Apple TV and Vudu were both quite a bit better than the DVD in terms on detail -- even on the OPPO DVD-983.

So, it looks like Apple TV has better PQ for both SD and streaming HD than the Vudu for the two titles that I evaluated. The HD findings might be surprising to some, since I was comparing 720p versus 1080p -- this just goes to show that the bit rate and encoding/decoding quality is as important as the frame resolution. The pleasant surprise to me is that the Apple TV HD movies are higher quality than the Vudu HD instant playing movies even though Vudu typically charges $5.99 for new titles versus Apple's $4.99.

Please note I did not evaluate the HDX version of the movie that Vudu charges the same price as HD for. I'm pretty sure the the quality of the HDX will be better, but I just can't deal with HDX wait factor.

I'm considering buying the new LG 47 LH50 HDTV with built-in streaming capability. The TV streaming input is a ethernet port on the back of the TV. Does anyone know what the difference will be between directly connecting a hard-wired ethernet port vs. a wifi adapter, both of which are in turn connected to our home DSL service? I want to have the ability to do instant streaming of the Vudu or Netflix services, so am wondering if this will work with wifi ethernet, or will it require the hard connection?

Wired connections always work better than wireless ones. Pull that cable if you can find a way to do it.

I'm considering buying the new LG 47 LH50 HDTV with built-in streaming capability. The TV streaming input is a ethernet port on the back of the TV. Does anyone know what the difference will be between directly connecting a hard-wired ethernet port vs. a wifi adapter, both of which are in turn connected to our home DSL service? I want to have the ability to do instant streaming of the Vudu or Netflix services, so am wondering if this will work with wifi ethernet, or will it require the hard connection?

You're going to be limited to your DSL connection speed anyway, so it doesn't really matter. 802.11g wifi is 54 megabits max (more like 20 in the real world), so unless your connection is faster than that, wireless is fine.

OP: You can lower the price of the PS3 to $299 now and change it to having 120GB of HD space.

Quite a bit of the information in that top post is out of date. For instance, Amazon VOD has had HD movie content for some time now (the browser on TiVo says that there are currently 384 HD movie titles).

He also never corrected the 1366x768 "Native Resolution" BS for TiVo and Xbox.

EDIT: The OP made a post stating that those tables come directly from the AppleInsider.com article that he quotes (both tables are images from that site). He's neither responsible for the information in the tables or capable of updating it. Also, he hasn't posted under that username since last June, so I doubt that he's reading this.

I was watching the USC-Ohio State game on ESPN, they and ABC use 720p, does anyone think AppleTv's 720p looks as good?

If not why not?

Wired connections always work better than wireless ones. Pull that cable if you can find a way to do it.

It depends on the speed you are talking about. WIth 5Ghz wireless N and a 50 mbs connection, my wireless speeds are identical to my wired. You can't tell a difference between them.
Although I recently dropped down to a slow 25mbs connection, but the same thing applies.