My HTPC is stable and produces a great picture, but the front end stinks and it's too hard to manage.

I've considered ATV but wonder the following:

1) With conversion from DVD, is it possible to get close to same quality I get now from ripped DVD?

2) Can I create library on the ATV that separates adult movies from the "kids" movies so they can't browse the more mature titles? (note, not necessarily by rating as there are some pg-13 that we won't let them watch and some R that we will)

3) Can I batch convert from ripped Video_TS using handbrake or other because I already have a rather large NAS full of movies.

4) If I have movies with DTS - how is that handled by ATV? AC3 is now possible, yes?

In short, is anyone with a critical eye and ear using this as a movie server?

Keep in mind that you could use a MacMini instead, and then you wouldn't have to convert anything the VIDEO_TS files and DTS will play natively -- no conversion required.

How can I put this - I'm looking for dead simple installation and maintenance. I've spent hundreds of dollars on PC software to try and make my HTPC simpler, but it still sucks.

the ATV seems to be more plug and play than the mini option, yes?

I want browsable cover art, an interface my wife and kids can use easily, and easy import and management.

I have mine set up pretty simply on a Mac Mini. Front Row works, basically the same as aTV, except no purchase/rental from full screen interface, and no HD rental is available. You do get a nice interface, but not exactly Cover Flow, but similar to Cover Flow. The upside regarding DVDs is you can rip them to an NAS, and once you have added an alias to the directory containing your DVDs in your Movie folder on the Mini, it all works. No additional, no real tricks under Leopard. You also have full access to your itunes library.

So to summarize, from my perspective there are 4 simple differences between using a Mac Mini and an aTV:

1. Cost vs. Power - If you will use the computer at any time for anything other than a Home Theater Mac Mini wins, else aTV wins on price.
2. Ease of Setup - Some people have issues getting the Mac Mini resolution on their setup working correctly, where as I have not heard this issue from an aTV users, so aTV wins here.
3. Broad range of video playback including DVDs - Mac Mini wins here, it can play almost any video format including Video_ts folders, not so for aTV (yet...).
4. Rental of HD from iTunes - aTV wins here, as this s not currently possible from a Mac Mini.

I use my mini for other tasks at times other than HTPC, and I bought it before aTV was available, otherwise I might have chosen aTV. I have not yet found a good conversion that exactly matches the quality of a raw DVD rip, although H.264 with high bitrate comes close, so that might be a consideration for me as well.

My HTPC is stable and produces a great picture, but the front end stinks and it's too hard to manage.

I've considered ATV but wonder the following:

1) With conversion from DVD, is it possible to get close to same quality I get now from ripped DVD?

2) Can I create library on the ATV that separates adult movies from the "kids" movies so they can't browse the more mature titles? (note, not necessarily by rating as there are some pg-13 that we won't let them watch and some R that we will)

3) Can I batch convert from ripped Video_TS using handbrake or other because I already have a rather large NAS full of movies.

4) If I have movies with DTS - how is that handled by ATV? AC3 is now possible, yes?

In short, is anyone with a critical eye and ear using this as a movie server?

1) Yes, with the right settings. It is still compressed, but I, and many others are very impressed with the results.

2) I do not know that this is possible, but there may be an add-in to iTunes, et.

3) Yes

4) With Handbrake 0.92 came the ability to include an AC3 stream into an .mp4 container (which is the format iTunes likes). Decoding will then be done by your AVR.

One important point that wasn't clear in your post was whether you have another computer to act as a "server" to the ATV? The ATV cannot just simply access a large dump of files located on a NAS. Those files would have to be added to an iTunes database on a computer, that would then stream to the ATV. Everything runs through iTunes, which is both a good and bad thing.

Well I do have another computer, but I don't want to require it to always be running in order to use the ATV - sometimes It's in sleep mode. I think my NAS can serve files on it's own, it does have some sort of itunes mode (ReadyNas+).

Well I do have another computer, but I don't want to require it to always be running in order to use the ATV - sometimes It's in sleep mode. I think my NAS can serve files on it's own, it does have some sort of itunes mode (ReadyNas+).

From what I've read, I would definitely not assume this is the case without some serious hacking.

Would my mac pro wake from sleep if an apple tv wanted access to itunes?

You can fit many (50+) often watched kid movies on a 160 gig ATV. Then it can work fine untethered from the computer.

If you have a server Mac that you rely on, you can set it to sleep the screen and spin down the hard drive, but not put the system to sleep. Then so long as iTunes was still open, your ATV could "wake" the Mac and access movies in the iTunes library.

Do the movies residing on the ATV show up different than on itunes on a server? Or if the server is on will they all show up together?

Do the movies residing on the ATV show up different than on itunes on a server? Or if the server is on will they all show up together?

From what I've seen these two scenarios are handled differently. There is one option on the ATV called "My Movies" which is for your content that is actually on the ATV's hard drive. Then, if you are also streaming from your "server" Mac, it's called "Shared Movies". My inclination is to get the smaller ATV, and put basically nothing on it, so that i stream/control everything from my "server". I prefer to keep everything in one place. I don't see the problem with doing what tommylotto said and just having the server on.

That sounds like it would work - "my movies" would be the kids stuff and "shared movies" would be the grownup stuff. I think I'm going to buy one and give it a try.

That sounds like it would work - "my movies" would be the kids stuff and "shared movies" would be the grownup stuff. I think I'm going to buy one and give it a try.

reasonable - make sure the 'my movies' kids stuff fits on the AppleTV disk - ie choose the AppleTV with the right disk drive space - otherwise I think this approach should work for you.

Related personal opinion - I think APple will release a 'Home Media' product later this year - if so, at that time I plan to move my AppleTV to the master bedroom...

ken

Well I backed off again - discovered that the ATV only outputs HDMI and my cable to my projector is DVI, plus I'd have to buy toslink as well (why not a digital RCA output on ATV???). Just seems like to much hassle and then re-encoding all my dvds.

I'm going to wait awhile and see if the product matures to allow direct ripped DVD play.

Well I backed off again - discovered that the ATV only outputs HDMI and my cable to my projector is DVI, plus I'd have to buy toslink as well (why not a digital RCA output on ATV???). Just seems like to much hassle and then re-encoding all my dvds.

I'm going to wait awhile and see if the product matures to allow direct ripped DVD play.

I have a friend using handbrake with component out on the atv and i am
using component out for all my video needs,monoprice has a nice dvi to
hdmi cable which is what i use from the panny to the mbp sometimes.

I'm going to wait awhile and see if the product matures to allow direct ripped DVD play.

Unfortunately, I doubt you will ever see this in an un-hacked state. I know that it has been included in FR 2.0, but when it comes to the Apple TV, Apple views iTunes as the center of the universe and driver of all content to this device. Would be nice though.

Unfortunately, I doubt you will ever see this in an un-hacked state. I know that it has been included in FR 2.0, but when it comes to the Apple TV, Apple views iTunes as the center of the universe and driver of all content to this device. Would be nice though.

I've asked this before, but, why isn't there a Video_TS plug-in for QT? As I understand it, a Video_TS plug-in for QT would allow users to add Video_TS files to iTunes and add metadata. Is this correct? If so, is there a technical or legal reason why this hasn't been done?

Well I backed off again - discovered that the ATV only outputs HDMI and my cable to my projector is DVI, plus I'd have to buy toslink as well (why not a digital RCA output on ATV???). Just seems like to much hassle and then re-encoding all my dvds.

I'm going to wait awhile and see if the product matures to allow direct ripped DVD play.

Dude. You so want a Mini.
-Direct ripped DVD play (with full menus)
-Folder level sorting of DVDs with as many layers and custom names as you want
-DVI out
-Digital RCA out (with a mini jack to RCA converter)
-Interface (Front Row) so simple that it got my wife to switch from TiVo
-Ability to add live TV and archived TV with multiple choices of how

I've got a Mini on the main theater and an ATV on the kids/kitchen auxillary.

ATV might do all this some day, but it will be a long wait. In your shoes I would buy a Mini, don't let it sleep and don't use if for anything but HT.

You may be right, but the mini is so overdue for an update I just can't bring myself to buy one. If apple upgrades them, then I'll probably jump on one.

...
-Digital RCA out (with a mini jack to RCA converter)
...
It is RCA or is it optical digital audio out like the MacBook?

I've asked this before, but, why isn't there a Video_TS plug-in for QT? As I understand it, a Video_TS plug-in for QT would allow users to add Video_TS files to iTunes and add metadata. Is this correct? If so, is there a technical or legal reason why this hasn't been done?

I'm not sure about the iTunes part, there are things that play in QT that can't be in iTunes (avi). I believe that the Front Row 2.0 in Leopard utilizes QT and can play Video_TS so I think the disconnect is between Video_TS and iTunes, not between Video_TS and QT.

You may be right, but the mini is so overdue for an update I just can't bring myself to buy one. If apple upgrades them, then I'll probably jump on one. January-March is when Apple historically updates Mac Minis. There was one "stealth" G4 Mini update in October, 2005, with a minor speed bump and doubled RAM. I'm not optimistic about any Mini updates soon but I'd love to be proved wrong. The current Mini is overdue for at least a Santa Rosa chipset, bigger HD, 2 GB base RAM, and a speed increase. Alternatively, they need to drop the price by $300.

Our refurbished 1.66 GHz CoreDuo Mini still fills its dedicated media server purpose beautifully after two years. We definitely got our money's worth. I plan on upgrading its CPU to Core2Duo once the AppleCare warranty expires next Spring. A CPU upgrade should be really affordable by then, hopefully adding another 1-2 years to our Mini's life.

I wish we could access full resolution iTS movie downloads for our Mini. Maybe someday Apple will realize there's a bunch of us non-AppleTV Mac owners who want to rent full resolution iTS movies with surround sound. Or maybe not.

It is RCA or is it optical digital audio out like the MacBook?

The same jack from the Mini can output 2-channel stereo using a mini-to-RCA cable or it can output optical 5.1 channel using a mini-to-toslink cable. There are then some settings you need to change in the Audio control panel and Audio Midi utility to get 5.1 output.

I've been thinking more about this - and come to realize that since I have a 2.35 screen with a lens in front of my projector, I'm not sure ATV or the MINI would work for me. My HTPC scales to fit the scope format screen, I doubt either of the macs will do this.

Anyone using with ATV or the Mini with a cinemascope format (2.35:1) screen? Maybe an external scaler? boy it's been a long time since I had one of those.

yes - i used ATV fed to a Lumagen that scaled to 2.35; since then i changed to a 60" plasma that is not cinescope, but the same ATV and lumagen now scales to it's native resolution.

Of course it required the lumagen external scaler, but I had no problems feeding the AppleTV to the lumagen for subsequent scaling to 2.35 (In that case I was running a Ruby with a panamorph lens in front);

The new ATV software has more output resolutions available now including 1080i (including 50Hz) as well as 576p 50Hz and 480p and 720p - so lots of choices for the external scaler of choice; Via the lumagen upscaling the ATV ripped and rented movies really look good on my 60" plasma (but much less so when not being processed by the Lumagen); I think your solution for an ATV or Mini would likely require an external scaler of some kind...

ken

Great feedback - I appreciate it.

I used to have an external scaler back when I had a 3 gun CRT projector and had to upscale VHS tapes (!) but that's been awhile. I had a look in the scaler forum, but man I'm so out of touch.

Is the lumagen scaler a satisfactory purchase? Does it decrease the WAF having another piece of equipment to deal with with the ATV?

Great feedback - I appreciate it.

I used to have an external scaler back when I had a 3 gun CRT projector and had to upscale VHS tapes (!) but that's been awhile. I had a look in the scaler forum, but man I'm so out of touch.

Is the lumagen scaler a satisfactory purchase? Does it decrease the WAF having another piece of equipment to deal with with the ATV?

lots of scalers to choose from these days; but lumagen is accepted as one of the top 2 or 3 available - so yes, a good choice as a general statement. In terms of WAF (which I have to contend with as well!), it can help, but is probably neutral. If you have a universal remote, it's easy to insert the input selection as part of the remote. If you have multiple inputs, then yes it helps; because each source can have it's own lumagen scaling to then output to your projector. In addition, it can be calibrated for each source uniquely (color, grey scale etc.).

I like it because you can tailor each source to achieve maximum video quality for your display device. My ATV lumagen input is calibrated differently than my DVD lumagen input for example -

I think one way it helps the WAF is by providing one selection path for all video to the display. But if you do this now by switching inputs at the display (using a programmable remote), it's about the same (except the quality difference of course)....

ken

Thanks again for the feedback. Sounds like you and I have fairly similar needs.

How would you say the ATV with scaler rates compared with a DVD upscaled via HTPC with FFDshow? One of the reasons I've hesitated is I don't want to purchase all this stuff to gain some convenience but then take a hit on quality.

I know it won't be blu-ray, but I have no HD sources in my home so we won't be missing that.

Thanks again for the feedback. Sounds like you and I have fairly similar needs.

How would you say the ATV with scaler rates compared with a DVD upscaled via HTPC with FFDshow? One of the reasons I've hesitated is I don't want to purchase all this stuff to gain some convenience but then take a hit on quality.

I know it won't be blu-ray, but I have no HD sources in my home so we won't be missing that.

A hard comparison to make directly, but I used to have a PC based HTPC using software upscaling to pixel match the Ruby projector. I never saw the ATV-scaler directly against this setup; But did see my external scaler against the software PC one and thought it superior quality.

The ATV-scaler setup is now on my 60" plasma and I haven't seen it directly against my older HTPC-software scaler; but I generally regard it as indistinguishable quality difference in resolution - but even better for color accuracy and artifacts. Very qualitative judgements here of course since they are against different displays and at different points in time;
But I don't think you would take a quality hit (assuming a good 2 pass, healthy bitrate HB rip).

Now there would be a slight quality hit on those iTunes purchased movies - they are a little softer due to the compression; but the newer upped resolution has helped that a lot recently; and of course the HD quality from the iTunes store via ATV is excellent; Very close to broadcast quality and only slight downgrade from BD (maybe 10% IMO); The ATV then would give you the benefit of a built in HD source (iTunes rentals) to give it a try on your system.

The lumagen scaler is also a slim box (in term of aesthetics of the setup) if that's a concern.

Another option might be to hold out for later this year - It's nothin' bust guesswork, but I personally think Apple will release a new Home-Media based product later this year that subsumes the present ATV; Who knows what that might do to the decision process... then again, waiting is such a hard thing to do... !!!

ken

Which lumagen scaler are you using? If you're seeing at least upscaled DVD quality from HB rips through the scaler, then I can live with that, who knows maybe we'll get attached to HD downloads. I've been a netflix user almost since they started.

Which lumagen scaler are you using? If you're seeing at least upscaled DVD quality from HB rips through the scaler, then I can live with that, who knows maybe we'll get attached to HD downloads. I've been a netflix user almost since they started.

yes - because the lumagen both upscales and processes beyond upscaling (color correction, motion adaptive, deinterlacing, etc.), it helps equalize differing source qualities. In fact I feed my DVD spinner (rarely used now) to the lumagen at 480i, so the lumagen does the deinterlacing as well. Again, I find very little, or most often, no difference between ATV (high quality HB rips) and the spinner (Pioneer Elite 79avi) fed to the lumagen scaler.

I'm using the lumagen HDQ; I've had it now for a couple of years, and there's the newer Radiance that's a more expensive model now that's even better - but I'm not sure it's worth the $...

ken
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=products

I went ahead and bought one - will report back. No scaler yet, but will be investigating based on how much I think I need one after watching.

the other advantage of course is the breadth of function offered (pictures, music, utube, etc.) ; For the price, it's useful to have just for that and some rentals etc.

looking forward to hearing your assessment PAP...

ken

I went ahead and bought one - will report back.

Don't forget to sync your photo library. The Apple TV has an amazing screen saver that slowly floats a collage of random photos across the screen, then periodically gracefully spins them around. If you are like me with a huge photo library of 5,000+ images spanning your entire lifetime, you will spend hours just listening to music and watching the screen saver as your life passes before your eyes. It literally brought tears to my wife's eyes once. Screw movie downloads, the screensaver was worth $300.

Don't forget to sync your photo library. The Apple TV has an amazing screen saver that slowly floats a collage of random photos across the screen, then periodically gracefully spins them around. If you are like me with a huge photo library of 5,000+ images spanning your entire lifetime, you will spend hours just listening to music and watching the screen saver as your life passes before your eyes. It literally brought tears to my wife's eyes once. Screw movie downloads, the screensaver was worth $300.

I agree with this 1000% - one of the best features that few have talked about;
By the way, with the latest software this works as a stream as well (syncing not required)...

ken

speaking of screen savers, the mosaic screen saver in Leopard is pretty cool too. i suppose that feature is too much graphics wise for appleTV

Received it yesterday and got it set up a bit. A few thoughts/questions:

1) Can you sync photos and music but not video? Or just sync some playlists?
2) DVD transferred into itunes with HB - surprisingly good quality, I was impressed. A bit softer than pure DVD but not a whole lot. This was using ATV default, I'm looking for tips on how to improve that.
3) AR is not being handled correctly for my setup - I have a 2.35 and lens and so I'm getting black bars on top and bottom from the ATV. Interestingly my projector says 750/50 I think (from memory) instead of 760 input - is that right? Using component.
4) I guess a scaler is going to be mandatory to get the use of my 2.35 screen, ouch.
5) Watching youtube was surprisingly fun on the big screen
6) How can I get HD-DVD or BR into this thing!

Ken - I had a couple extra questions about the scaler interaction with ATV - if I have Apple TV set at 720p and I have a 720p projector - how is the scaler going to help me other than correcting for the AR mismatch with a 2.35 screen? I.e. - will it still sharpen and improve the image even though it's not upscaling? better to ouput 480p since my source is ripped DVD and let the scaler upscale?

greatly appreciate the feedback - the lumagen is a big chunk of change and need to understand what it will do for me before I decide to buy one.

I asked in the scaler forum, but nobody is helping me.

Received it yesterday and got it set up a bit. A few thoughts/questions:

1) Can you sync photos and music but not video? Or just sync some playlists?
2) DVD transferred into itunes with HB - surprisingly good quality, I was impressed. A bit softer than pure DVD but not a whole lot. This was using ATV default, I'm looking for tips on how to improve that.
3) AR is not being handled correctly for my setup - I have a 2.35 and lens and so I'm getting black bars on top and bottom from the ATV. Interestingly my projector says 750/50 I think (from memory) instead of 760 input - is that right? Using component.
4) I guess a scaler is going to be mandatory to get the use of my 2.35 screen, ouch.
5) Watching youtube was surprisingly fun on the big screen
6) How can I get HD-DVD or BR into this thing!

1 - Yes you can sync whatever you want. Just setup the Apple TV to custom sync and pace check marks in the things you want to sync. Just like an iPod.

2 - Check out the Handbrake / Devices forum. There is a post about the Apple TV/Handbrake settings and how to tweak it for best performance. http://forum.handbrake.fr/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5129

6 - Right now to rip HD/DVD or Blu-Ray I use a windows XP program combination of AnyDVD and CloneDVD. I'm not sure what the Apple equivalents are yet. You can run them in Parallels if you don't have a windows box.

Ken - I had a couple extra questions about the scaler interaction with ATV - if I have Apple TV set at 720p and I have a 720p projector - how is the scaler going to help me other than correcting for the AR mismatch with a 2.35 screen? I.e. - will it still sharpen and improve the image even though it's not upscaling? better to ouput 480p since my source is ripped DVD and let the scaler upscale?

greatly appreciate the feedback - the lumagen is a big chunk of change and need to understand what it will do for me before I decide to buy one.

I asked in the scaler forum, but nobody is helping me.

my plasma is also 720p; When you output ATV at 720p, the ATV is doing the scaling (from 480); The ATV does a decent job at this scaling by all accounts. And I suggest trying your ATV without the externa scaler and see how you like it;

The external Lumagen scaler does cost a lot; For that money, It provides corrections not included in the ATV - color correction, motion and pixel interpolation; This always gets to be a question of how you value your money verses the viewing experience; If you like the results without the scaler, then stick with that.

The scaler is a lot of $ - need to have some disposable income to make it worth it of course; but if so - it's a good long term investment in that any source will be improved... Hard judgement to make;

I'll be interested to hear your impressions with ATV and no scaler...

ken

Well I've only watched a few minutes of an encoded file using just ATV presets - I've been getting some tips on how to improve the encoding, so that may improve

I would say default I'm getting a definitely softer picture than my upscaled FFDshow processed picture, but although it's obvious to my eye, it's not a night and day difference and one that most casual viewers might not notice. I'd say it's 85% of the image I had.

the biggest problem I'm seeing is that 2.35 movies are playing with black bars on top and bottom and that is a BIG no-no in my theater!

So do you output at 480p and then upscale with the scaler or still output 720p?

For the ATV- I usually have it set to output 480p but the lumagen scaler improvements are mostly in other areas like color and motion correction. When I output ATV 720p, there's not much difference in quality since ATV does a decent job for the resolution part of the upscaling... I have the DVD player output 480i.

I don't presently have 2.35 screen; but if that's what you want output as native, you'll need that external scaler I think... But one thing you could try is the anamorphic setting HB;

Trying to help with your questions above as follows:
1) you can sync anything, but that just means it 'copies' it to the ATV disk; For video, might as well just stream it instead; In fact I stream everything - photos, music, video
2) good suggestions from mjm; you can try 2-pass setting in HB; I find this sharpens a bit (although twice as long to encode)
3) 4)the external scaler would fix this; but try HB anamorphic - If you projector is 1.78 native (likely), the external scaler may not be a necessity... (I'm pushing my knowledge base here)
5) U-tube is a blast on the big screen and I think there's more coming from Apple in this area...

ken

I have had great results with Handbrake, too. Recently, I have been using Handbrake to rip my DVDs and convert them to MP4 files so that I can put them in iTunes and sync them with my Apple TV. I setup Handbrake to create MP4 files that are about 2.5 gig. To my eyes and ears at least, they are indistinguishable from the original DVDs played on my upconverting DVD player. I did another one that was about 1 gig. It was fine, too, but had only 2 channel sound, some occasional artifacts, and wasn’t quite as crisp looking as the original DVD.

You may be right, but the mini is so overdue for an update I just can't bring myself to buy one. If apple upgrades them, then I'll probably jump on one.

Don't let this stop you. You are thinking about an ATV anyway, so whether the mini is 'new' or not isn't a factor. It will be perma-connected to your TV so what it IS isn't really a factor.

And finally, if they 'upgrade' the mini to Penryn, it will likely be SLOWER because of the smaller L2 cache in the lower-end Penryn chips Apple would be likely to use.

I use a 1.83 Core (1) Duo that I bought refurb. It is awesome, and that little thing actually became my primary computer. I bought it as a toy to 'try out' Mac. Instead, my nice windows tower sits unplugged with the Mini as my primary.

Who knew?

As soon as I purchase a Macbook Pro, the Mini becomes my fulltime HTPC.

Get the mini. Get a refurb (just make sure it is core duo at least, not the old core solo 1.66 that Apple has priced insanely) and you will be in heaven.

I ended up buying the ATV as noted above, am playing with it now. May look into the mini in the future if I can't get the ATV to do what I want, but the interface is slick and so far other than the hassle of ripping movies to h264 it seems to be a winner.

PAP - did you buy a Lumagen to work with your ATV?

How do you feel about the ATV a month later?

Kelly

Actually in another thread someone suggested a handbrake setting that is supposed to make the ATV scale the letterbox (2.35). I'm encoding my first trial movie right now.

If that works, I won't need a scaler and I'll be totally psyched!

Will report back.

(In general I've been very impressed with it. Video quality is almost as good as my HTPC, and not enough below that I'm bothered. The only hassle is that several times I've been downstairs in the movie room and had to run back up to my mac pro to start itunes for the streaming to work).

Tried the suggested tip (found at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13884869#post13884869

It didn't work. So I'm back looking for a scaler solution again :( Was hoping to save the money.

Gave up and ordered the lumagen Radiance scaler. It's expensive, but should do all I need and more.

Gave up and ordered the lumagen Radiance scaler. It's expensive, but should do all I need and more.

You're gonna love it! - I have the HDQ (bought before the Radiance was available); I love the way it cleans up, and presents all video sources. But it give just the extra needed to make HandBrake DVDs via ATV a no brainer to me....

Congratulations PAP...

ken

I may be back when it comes, it sounds like it can do way more than I need. I hope it's fairly easy to install.

As always, will report back :)

And Ken, I appreciate all your feedback.