We amateurs are having a tough task trying to get the best out of our 8Gs panels, particularly when using low cost tools.

Some pros post generic settings, some keep their secrets.... but we may be more than we think! So why not sharing our impressions, experience and calibration tips?

I'm just beginning this thread hopeing it will be a lightouse for us, owning an 8G, wishing to do the job by our selfs.

As we say in Italy: "Let's open the dance"! :)
************************************

2008 april 08 - Links to calibration-related articles
HDTVTest - PDP-4280XD (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/Benchmark.php)
HDTVTest - PDP-508XD (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP508XD/Calibration.php)
HDTVTest - PDP-LX508D (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP-LX508D/Calibration)
UltimateAVmag - PDP-5080 (http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/907piokuro/index4.html)
UltimateAVmag - PRO 110FD (http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/308pio110fd/index7.html)

2008 april 05 - Some infos for the posters: when posting your experience and results please detail:
- your final TV settings
- sensor brand/model and usage technique (temp. drifts?)
- source (computer, DVD player, etc) brand/model + input type (HDMI,DVI, etc)
- calibration software
- calibration patterns
- if not Huffman's guide, calibration steps
- tips, thoughts, difficulties, etc
- color reference REC601 or REC709
- your impressions about the final results
- how your settings compare with D-Nice's and Bumtious ones

Don't forget to sign the Piooner Firmware Petition (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1020363)

And here it comes, moved from another "improper" thread...
***********************************************

I'm keeping on calibrating my TV and getting little by little into it. Sometimes it looks I'm back from start, some times little steps ahead.

At this time I'm dealing with ISF C3 calibration, just because I was curious to see what results I could acheive.

Following Huffmans guide, with my little Eyeone Display LT sensor & HCFR.

I was having some problems with the sensor in the last days (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13465692#post13465692) but now I've changed the calibration strategy, doing a lot of offsets recal and it gets better.

Having the opportunity to tweak the 9 point gamma tracking I could finally use Pio's color management menu (HUE) to move also the primaries colorpoints in the proper position. At least I've tried!

I've decided to use HCFR DVD patterns V.2 (Windowed) and set REC601 reference: more and more people argue about a lot of HD editing and color correction is still done on monitors that adhere to REC601; last but not least the majority of my discs are SD DVDs. So I've started with REC601. Will go for REC709 on another TV input.

I've followed Huffmans guide: set some initial brightness and contrast , adjust gamma curve (inside ISF C3 interface it looks like there is no Gamma1,2,3 setting); once in place, set red Y to 21% of 100 IRE white.
Then moved on into the grayscale and CIE chart/colorpoints adjustment cycle.

Once done, I've finally entered the 9 point gamma tracking values.

There has been a lot of discussions between professional calibrators about using this interface and it looks like it is contradictory and confusing. I've used it only once, so I may be wrong, but It looks like there's plenty of room for improvements.

First of all it has a "ten points" scale from -5 to +5 acting as a fine tuning tool, BUT:

- On the low IRE side of the scale, just one "click" plus/minus makes curves in the grayscale "jump" very quickly with big loss/gains in the 10% order on the graph, say one click increase, moves the curve from 95% to 105%....

- On the high side of the scale, the contrary: you need many "clicks" to "move" the curve.

- One other strange beheaviour is that if you tweak a point, you are actually changing the next one! You have to keep in mind this factor.

So at a certain point I've decided to stop and publish the following results, even if there's an evidence it is an uncomplete job. Still needs tweaking, and will go for it, but in the meanwhile I'd like to share with yous.

Looking at the graphs you will argue that the gamma curve is a bit bulky, and certainly it needs refinements, and also some bad values are set at 30 IRE on the grayscale. This last fact needs a comment: I'm starting to understand what UMR meant about the "dark side" of the blu: in the complete darkness of the room with windowed patterns your senses get finer and you really start feeling how the black background sorrounding the windowed pattern can get easily "coloured". I had the feeling it was getting a little bluish, so remebering UMR words I've decided to leave the graph apparently blu undersatured. Dunno if influenced too much by UMR but when watching a DVD, once finished, still I had the feeling the blu was slightly "lurking" in the darks.

It will need more investigating.

Other thoughts: on the CIE chart the green color point is on a wrong position, but there is no way in colourspace=2/REC601 to set it right. There has been lots of comments on this and still it is unclear for me if it is better to use colourspace 1 or 2. I'm pointing out the REC601 factor just because I remeber once I throw some measurements in Colourspace=2 with the REC709 reference and AVCHD HD patterns and it seemed you could get all the colorpoints in place, also the green.

Once finished I've played a few DVDs, and the feeling is that the colours have a very "realistic" representation, not at all overboosted like some suggested setting I was using, from the british forum: of course those settings are in the colourspace=1 domain, but comparing the two, they (the british suggested settings) really look overboosted, particullarly on reds and skin tones, giving an "over tanned" effect to skins.

What I don't like very much from my settings is that skin sometimes looks slightly heading to yellow, but it could depend from the DVDs I've tested (lord of the rings and transformers).... just two discs, but at

4:00AM I thought it was enough!. Tonight I will have a go with DVE reference movies to see what they look like... I remember there are some sequences with the guys playing outdoor with very neutral skins and the

couple at the restaurant....yes I will check it out.

It may be a wrong calibration..... maybe it could it depend on the bad green/colorpoint?

I'm attaching some pics and the colorHCFR "after" for your thoughts..

A final thought: having the settings locked, poses another question mark on the ISF C3 interface usage.... regardless of how perfectly the TV is calibrated, there are some settings that should have been left unlocked in the TV menu. Pioneer should have followed another approach IMHO: for example a much better idea could have been to simply store the ISF settings somewhere as a template in the TV, giving the opportunity to users
to load the settings when needed still leaving controls unlocked. If screwed up by granny and kids, you still could reset to stored values. Yep Pioneer could get into this direction, maybe with a firmware update??
Also, as pointed out allready, the behaviour of the 9 point gamma should radically change: it would be much better to have a wider control range, with a larger number of steps, to allow users to make very fine adjustments but at the same time giving the opportunity to boost values if needed.

Not to mention the opportunity to have per channel luminance\saturation adjustments.

Pioneer sells top end plasmas TV: why shouldn't they have a full featured CMS like projectors?


Comments welcome :)

Tools used:
- Sony PS3 + HDMI
- X-Rite EyeOne Display LT + 1,5mt USB extension
- HCFR v. 2.0.1 (http://www.homecinema-fr.com/colorimetre/index_en.php)
- eyeone.dll v. 3.4.0.131 date 03/07/2007
- HCFR DVD v.2 (http://www.homecinema-fr.com/colorimetre/index_en.php)
- ControlCAL 1.41 beta (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1011896)
- DVE DVD
- Tom Huffman's basic calibration guide (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536)
- Colorcalibration setup R2 (now updated in R3!) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12883394&postcount=574)
- Nespresso

Settings in use:
- Sony PS3 + HDMI @576p, 16-235, Video=Auto
- HCFR: Reference=REC601, Sensor=Eyone + Plasma,Gamma=2.2 + black compensation.

colorhcfr.ini
[Options]
Language=ENGLISH
[EyeOne]
DeviceCalibrationMode=2
AverageReads=0
MinutesCalibrationValid=8
[Defaults]
Sensor=Eye One
Training FileName=
Training Mode=1
Generator=DVD manual
[Views Size]
MultiFrame W=1292
MultiFrame H=912
[MainView]
Display type=4
[Gamma Histo]
Show Red=1
Show Green=1
Show Blue=1
[Save graph]
Size type=3
Image Width=1024
Image Height=768
File type=0
Jpeg Quality=95
[CIE Chart]
Show Measurements=0
Display Saturation Scale=0
Display GrayScale=0
Display Delta E=0
CIE uv mode=0
[MeasureBarState-Summary]
Bars=8
ScreenCX=1280
ScreenCY=1024
[Settings]
MainWndPos=2,3,-1,-1,-1,-1,0,0,1280,988
[General]
DoMultipleInstance=0
DoSavePosition=1
BWColorsToAdd=1
[References]
GammaOffsetType=1
ManualGamOffset=0.099
ColorStandard=1
WhiteTarget=0
DisplayTestColors=1
ContinuousMeasures=1
DetectPrimaries=0
IrisLatencyTime=0
IrisLatencyBeep=1
SatUseMeasuredRef=1
GammaRefValue=2.22
IRELevels=0
[Appearance]
DrawMode=8
DrawMemuBorder=1
SelectDisabledItem=0
DoXpBlending=0
DoGlooming=0
WhiteBkgndOnScreen=0
WhiteBkgndOnFile=0
UseCustomColor=0
Window Color=Auto
Menu Color=Auto
Selection Color=Auto
Text Color=Auto
[Advanced]
TBViewsRightClickMode=0
TBViewsMiddleClickMode=1
ConfirmMeasures=1
UseCalibrationFilesOnAllProbes=0
ControlledMode=0
UseOnlyPrimaries=0
UseImperialUnits=0
LuminanceCurveMode=0
PreferLuxmeter=0
UseOldDeltaEFormula=0
UseDeltaELumaOnGrays=0
[Saturation Luminance Histo]
Show Secondaries=1
[RGB Histo]
Show Reference=1
Show Reference Data=1
Show Delta E=1
[Luminance Histo]
Show Red=0
Show Green=0
Show Blue=0
[Generator]
Blanking=1
[Combo Histo]
Show Delta E=0
Show Luminance=0
Show Color Temperature=0
[MeasureBarState-Bar0]
BarID=59418
XPos=-2
YPos=-2
Docking=1
MRUDockID=59419
MRUDockLeftPos=-2
MRUDockTopPos=-2
MRUDockRightPos=32510
MRUDockBottomPos=29
MRUFloatStyle=8196
MRUFloatXPos=-2
MRUFloatYPos=0
[MeasureBarState-Bar1]
BarID=1121
XPos=-2
YPos=27
Docking=1
MRUDockID=0
MRUDockLeftPos=-2
MRUDockTopPos=27
MRUDockRightPos=345
MRUDockBottomPos=72
MRUFloatStyle=8196
MRUFloatXPos=-2
MRUFloatYPos=0
[MeasureBarState-Bar2]
BarID=1125
XPos=861
YPos=27
Docking=1
MRUDockID=59419
MRUDockLeftPos=861
MRUDockTopPos=27
MRUDockRightPos=1118
MRUDockBottomPos=72
MRUFloatStyle=8196
MRUFloatXPos=-2
MRUFloatYPos=0
[MeasureBarState-Bar3]
BarID=1183
Visible=0
XPos=-2
YPos=-3
Docking=1
MRUDockID=0
MRUDockLeftPos=0
MRUDockTopPos=0
MRUDockRightPos=0
MRUDockBottomPos=0
MRUFloatStyle=8196
MRUFloatXPos=-2
MRUFloatYPos=0
[MeasureBarState-Bar4]
BarID=1259
Visible=0
XPos=27
YPos=85
Docking=1
MRUDockID=0
MRUDockLeftPos=0
MRUDockTopPos=0
MRUDockRightPos=0
MRUDockBottomPos=0
MRUFloatStyle=8196
MRUFloatXPos=-2
MRUFloatYPos=0
[MeasureBarState-Bar5]
BarID=1123
XPos=357
YPos=27
Docking=1
MRUDockID=59419
MRUDockLeftPos=357
MRUDockTopPos=27
MRUDockRightPos=833
MRUDockBottomPos=72
MRUFloatStyle=8196
MRUFloatXPos=-2
MRUFloatYPos=0
[MeasureBarState-Bar6]
BarID=59393
[MeasureBarState-Bar7]
BarID=59419
Bars=10
Bar#0=0
Bar#1=59418
Bar#2=0
Bar#3=1121
Bar#4=1123
Bar#5=1125
Bar#6=0
Bar#7=1183
Bar#8=1259
Bar#9=0
[Recent File List]


ISF C3 settings
ISF NIGHT

PureCinema=3

Contrast=30
Brightness=
Color=0
Tint=0
Sharpness=0

COLOR TEMP=6 (Manual)

RedHigh=-5
GreenHigh=1
BlueHigh=0

RedLow=-2
GreenLow=0
BlueLow=4

COLOR MANAGEMENT
Red=7
Green=0
Blue=10
Cyan=4
Yellow=0
Magenta=0

ColorSpace=2

IPMode=1
DRE=1
EnhancerMode=1

GAMMA TABLE
Red10%=5
Red20%=6
Red30%=5
Red40%=5
Red50%=5
Red60%=5
Red70%=6
Red80%=4
Red90%=8
Green10%=5
Green20%=5
Green30%=5
Green40%=5
Green50%=5
Green60%=5
Green70%=5
Green80%=4
Green90%=5
Blue10%=5
Blue20%=4
Blue30%=5
Blue40%=5
Blue50%=4
Blue60%=6
Blue70%=4
Blue80%=6
Blue90%=7

All other filters OFF

http://img155.imagevenue.com/loc671/th_73452_508XD_-_Colorspace2_-_PS36576p-_REC601_-_HCFR_-_Luminance_122_671lo.jpg (http://img155.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=73452_508XD_-_Colorspace2_-_PS36576p-_REC601_-_HCFR_-_Luminance_122_671lo.jpg) Luminance

http://img41.imagevenue.com/loc992/th_73461_508XD_-_Colorspace2_-_PS32576p-_REC601_-_HCFR_-_Gamma_122_992lo.jpg (http://img41.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=73461_508XD_-_Colorspace2_-_PS32576p-_REC601_-_HCFR_-_Gamma_122_992lo.jpg) Gamma

http://img221.imagevenue.com/loc520/th_73467_508XD_-_Colorspace2_-_PS35576p-_REC601_-_HCFR_-_CIE_122_520lo.jpg (http://img221.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=73467_508XD_-_Colorspace2_-_PS35576p-_REC601_-_HCFR_-_CIE_122_520lo.jpg) CIE chart

http://img201.imagevenue.com/loc347/th_74327_508XD_-_Colorspace2_-_PS30576p-_REC601_-_HCFR_-_Grayscale_122_347lo.jpg (http://img201.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=74327_508XD_-_Colorspace2_-_PS30576p-_REC601_-_HCFR_-_Grayscale_122_347lo.jpg) Grayscale

http://img242.imagevenue.com/loc560/th_73919_508XD_-_Colorspace2_-_PS33576p-_REC601_-_HCFR_-_Color_temp_122_560lo.jpg (http://img242.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=73919_508XD_-_Colorspace2_-_PS33576p-_REC601_-_HCFR_-_Color_temp_122_560lo.jpg) Color temperature

Last night another session.

The 9 point gamma table is weird.... you touch one single point and something happens somewhere else. What a challenge!

Who knows if Pioneer has a "well known" strategy to follow when dealing with this interface.....

I'm not posting results this time, still in uncomplete state... hope to get on target soon.

Now about moving primaries colorpoints and side effects on the grayscale: there has been a lot of talking about moving the primaries on the CIE chart, leading into grayscale non linearity... well when performing grayscale measurements you can actually "see" this side effect! You start with a bluish 10 IRE pattern, then observe a slightly greenish 20 IRE pattern and so on.... the effect is quite visible on the low side of the scale.

Last night I've been very strict in the "warm up/keep on black screen between measurements/recal every 3/6 minutes" and getting good "behaviour" from sensor.. the strange thing is that the very first grayscale measurement, probabily done in the coolest conditions of the session, gave very linear results... no spikes around.

As a result I was measuring slightly different results from the day before and I've ended almost resetting the 9 point gamma table to it's defaults!! What if you end not using it at all? :D

More updates tomorrow

P.S. - Am I alone here? :)

P.S. - Am I alone here? :)

Not sure... :)

Here are some images from my investigation on how Pioneer Colour Management and Gray Scale Tracking after having performed a "quick and dirty" calibration, i.e. not having spent time to try and reach the best possible calibration result:


Source: DVE Pro PAL DVD
Device Source: Onkyo DV-SP504E, HDMI, YCbCr 4:2:2, 576p.
Display: Pioneer PDP-428XD:A/V mode: Movie
Contrast 29
Brightness +1
Colour +5
Tint 0
Sharpness -15
Pro Adjust
PureCinema
Film Mode Off
Text Optimisation Off
Intelligent Mode Off
Picture Detail
All Off
Enhancer Mode 2
Gamma 1
Colour Detail
Colour Temp Manual
RH -2
GH 0
BH +4
RL 0
GL 0
BL 0
CTI Off
Colour Management
All 0
Colour Space 2
Noise Reduction
All Off
Others
3DYC N/A
I-P Mode N/A
Main Menu | Option
Drive Mode 2
Calibration Software: HCFR 2.0.1.
Colorimeter: i1 Display 2/LT (EyeOne.dll: 3.4.0.131).
Environment: Measurements done in a completely dark environment.

Colour Management (dotted lines are from the reference measurement, i.e. with all CM settings at 0):

Red:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/01cms-r/01cms-r-0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/01cms-r/01cms-r-2rgb.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/01cms-r/02cms-r0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/01cms-r/02cms-r2rgb.png

Yellow:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/02cms-y/03cms-y-0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/02cms-y/03cms-y-2rgb.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/02cms-y/04cms-y0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/02cms-y/04cms-y2rgb.png

- continued below...

continued:

Green:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/03cms-g/05cms-g-0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/03cms-g/05cms-g-2rgb.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/03cms-g/06cms-g0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/03cms-g/06cms-g2rgb.png

Cyan:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/04cms-c/07cms-c-0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/04cms-c/07cms-c-2rgb.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/04cms-c/08cms-c0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/04cms-c/08cms-c2rgb.png

- continued below...

continued:

Blue:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/05cms-b/09cms-b-0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/05cms-b/09cms-b-2rgb.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/05cms-b/10cms-b0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/05cms-b/10cms-b2rgb.png

Magenta:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/06cms-m/11cms-m-0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/06cms-m/11cms-m-2rgb.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/06cms-m/12cms-m0.png
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/06cms-m/12cms-m2rgb.png


----------
Conclusion: Don't touch Pioneer's so called Colour Management!

Granted, I haven't tried to find a method to fix the problems with the gray scale tracking as a result of using Pioneer's CM, but frankly it quickly goes towards diminishing returns, i.e. it's simply not worth the effort (IMHO) and on the positive side Pioneer's gamut is very close using Colour Space 2 so you really don't have to mess with moving the primaries (IMHO).

Well thanks for the contribution! :)

I'll keep on investigating too if is there a way to rule the grayscale, once the primaries are moved...

Would be handy if you could post your best calibration results....

Thanks

P.S. - Can you tell your calibration techniques? What steps do you follow... Huffman's or HCFR "Calibration pur nuls)..... also the anti-"temp drift" technique could be handy....

I have recently changed my DVD player so I must start over calibrating my video chain. IRL stuff has gotten in the way so I have had little time to mess with it, but I will get back to it shortly.

Guys, I don't know why you are surprised that changing the location of the primaries results in a change in the greyscale.

Of course they will interact. After changing the primaries you need to rebalance the greyscale.

Great Wolfy!

Of course they will interact. After changing the primaries you need to rebalance the greyscale.

Yes but the non-linearity seems not so easy to fix. :confused: even with the C3 interface...... I remember Gordon Frazer warning on this.

You're just not trying hard enough. :-)

I have an NEC, which has the same CMS (or more accurately CRS) system and have my greyscale at <3 dE across the entire range after making significant moves to the primaries and secondaries.

Yes, what blutarsky said. The way that the grayscale tracking changes is not something you will be able to correct using the user menu controls. At least I haven't found any way to correct it, I'd love to know about it if anyone has found a way to be able to move the position of the primaries and correct the resulting grayscale changes.

You're just not trying hard enough. :-)

Rookies at work!

Yes, what blutarsky said. The way that the grayscale tracking changes is not something you will be able to correct using the user menu controls. At least I haven't found any way to correct it, I'd love to know about it if anyone has found a way to be able to move the position of the primaries and correct the resulting grayscale changes.


It should be possible with the 9 point gamma! It should! But at the moment it seems to me it doesn't. Just to give an idea I've moved 1 click the 20IRE blu and got a huge shift in the 90IREs!!! I thought that those "reactions" would occur when using the CUTS & GAINS only, and never touching a single point in the scale...
I hope it's my inexperience!

It should be possible with the 9 point gamma! It should! But at the moment it seems to me it doesn't. Just to give an idea I've moved 1 click the 20IRE blu and got a huge shift in the 90IREs!!! I thought that those "reactions" would occur when using the CUTS & GAINS only, and never touching a single point in the scale...
I hope it's my inexperience!That doesn't sound promising. I was also hoping for a type of equalizer which would truly simplify things. Otherwise, what's the point?

Yes, what blutarsky said. The way that the grayscale tracking changes is not something you will be able to correct using the user menu controls. At least I haven't found any way to correct it, I'd love to know about it if anyone has found a way to be able to move the position of the primaries and correct the resulting grayscale changes.

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't the RGB cuts/drives available in the user menu of your Pioneer? I'm not familiar with the European variants. I know in NA they are only available in the Elite user menu.

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't the RGB cuts/drives available in the user menu of your Pioneer? I'm not familiar with the European variants. I know in NA they are only available in the Elite user menu.You are correct, they are available in the user menu, but you can only set for the low and the high end. When you leave the CM values at 0 it's fairly straight forward to set the grayscale since it tracks flatly (is that a word?), however once you start to move the primaries the grayscale is no longer flat so how do you correct that with settings that only sets the high end and the low end collectively?

Here's how the grayscale tracks pre calibration:

http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/pre-cal-grayscale.png

PS Like I mentioned above, I only investigated how the Pioneer CM performs from a reference after having a lot of problems trying to get a correct grayscale tracking after achieving a almost perfect gamut via the CM (at least as far as the x, y position goes). After reading what Tom Huffman and others have written about the problem with Pioneer's implementation of a CMS I began to understand why I had such trouble getting it to work like I wanted it to. Luckily Pioneer 8G using Color Space 2 doesn't need much improvement.

That doesn't sound promising. I was also hoping for a type of equalizer which would truly simplify things. Otherwise, what's the point?

Dunno, really but some quotes may help...

Gordon Fraser in the British forum:
IN MY EXPERIENCE, using the red, green and blue parts of the CMS can cause non-linearity in the greyscale. As the USER interface only has a two point greyscale adjustment this cannot be fixed. In the ISF C3 menu you have a further 10 point RGB gamma adjustment that can help to balance this out. Uniform linear greyscale is pretty important for good image quality.

The ability to adjust the individual saturation of primaries and secondaries and the individual brightness/lightness of the primaries/secondaries, is not possible in either menu. This doesn't mean that calibraiton is impossible. It just means you can't get the image as accurate as you could if these controls were available.

You should also note that different displays behave differently. ie I've had a couple odd 428's where the greyscale has stayed pretty flat after some primary adjsutment. Usually this isn't the case.

Gordon here in avsforum:
Incidentally the Datacolor c3 app has been working for me for a couple of months now....and I have to say that the 9 point rgb gamma and the y/c delay in the C3 interface of these displays is not that well implimented. I would suggest you'd get a hugely superior result with the Lumagen CMS as UMR suggests

You are correct, they are available in the user menu, but you can only set for the low and the high end. When you leave the CM values at 0 it's fairly straight forward to set the grayscale since it tracks flatly (is that a word?), however once you start to move the primaries the grayscale is no longer flat so how do you correct that with settings that only sets the high end and the low end?

Changes at the low and high end also affect the middle values. Remember, you are adjusting the co-efficients of a transfer function that is implemented by the TV's hardware.

The hard part is that the transfer function is controlled by MANY coefficients. Greyscale flatness is also a function of contrast and brightness too. And gamma setting. And Picture Mode. And so on.

For any change that you make to contrast/brightness/cut/drive/CMS it's like pushing on a balloon. You push in one spot and it bulges out in another. Ideally you would have infinite push points to be able to get a perfect shape but in reality you don't.

Changes at the low and high end also affect the middle values. Remember, you are adjusting the co-efficients of a transfer function that is implemented by the TV's hardware.

The hard part is that the transfer function is controlled by MANY coefficients. Greyscale flatness is also a function of contrast and brightness too. And gamma setting. And Picture Mode. And so on.

For any change that you make to contrast/brightness/cut/drive/CMS it's like pushing on a balloon. You push in one spot and it bulges out in another. Ideally you would have infinite push points to be able to get a perfect shape but in reality you don't.Yes, all good points. All I know is that once you use Pioneer's CM to move the position of the primaries you are in a world of hurt ;) It may well be that I'm simply too inexperienced but there has been a number of people reporting similar problems with Pioneer's implementation of a CMS (CRS). Regardless, I will continue to mess with it and should I find a way I will certainly post my results.

Not sure if this helps, but here's an article on a PDP4280XD calibration where the writer addressed some issues he ran into.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/Benchmark.php

You're just not trying hard enough. :-)

Back again from another attempt, things get better, you are right you have to try hard :)

I'd like to share some uncomplete results again: I need to lower a bit color amount, and flatten a bit the gamma curve.

But the CIE chart now looks very good; keeping cycleing in Tom's flow, got me to set also the green in place, although using the REC601 reference + colorspace=2.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6303/508xdcolorspace2ps3576pwn6.jpg


The grayscale and deltas are better; still needs improvements and non-linearity is there. But the gamma table is really weird...

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6691/508xdcolorspace2ps3576pvm6.jpg


One thing I would like someone to answer is about the grayscale non-linearity: as we have said allready is bad, but looking at many graphs on the forums it looks like there are many people out there using settings that give non-linear grayscales even without entering the gamma table in the C3 interface.

Some guru may complain those (non-linear) are from poor calibrations....could it be that there's an acceptable amount of non-linearity? If so, what is the limit?

One thing I would like someone to answer is about the grayscale non-linearity: as we have said allready is bad, but looking at many graphs on the forums it looks like there are many people out there using settings that give non-linear grayscales even without entering the gamma table in the C3 interface.

Some guru may complain those (non-linear) are from poor calibrations....could it be that there's an acceptable amount of non-linearity? If so, what is the limit?

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by non-linearity.

You are always going to get a certain amount of "bumps" in each colour curve due to inherent probe measurement error, processing effects in the panel, etc.

If your overall dE is small, then the errors are supposed to be visually imperceptible. Looking at your last chart you are probably there already.

The most important question, does the picture look good?

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by non-linearity.

I'm unsure about what it exactly means, (I will ask Gordon) but what I suspect is that the RGB curves don't follow a reasonable "trend", but they "cross" each other from 1 point to the closest one...

Maybe the following is considered a linear grayscale:

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5396/linearhe4.jpg

The above is a misconfigured linear grayscale... but linear (maybe :)).
The good of such a graph, apart from not being tuned, is that grays keep the same coloured trend (reddish) on the whole IRE steps from 0 to 100.

If the above is true, it means that a nonlinear grayscale will have (just to give an idea) a 10 IRE reddish gray, a 20 IRE bluish gray, and so on. And this side effect would be catastrophic when dealing with some kind of images (imagine a cloud that shows multiple gray levels)..


The most important question, does the picture look good?

I've only tried DVE videos and it looks very good.

IHMO, I wouldn't worry too much about whether individual colour points are above or below once the total dE is low. Like I said, you are not supposed to be able to tell the difference anyway.

BTW, why did you ask how the images looks like? That question makes me shiver, as it sounds like "data looks good, but your instrument may be fooling you"...

I've just discovered I was calibrating with DRE=1, and when set to 0 makes quite a difference in terms of contrast... that's why maybe I was getting bulky results in the gamma curve.... definitelly will have a go with DRE=0...

I've just discovered I was calibrating with DRE=1, and when set to 0 makes quite a difference in terms of contrast... that's why maybe I was getting bulky results in the gamma curve.... definitelly will have a go with DRE=0...Interesting, I measured no difference between DRE = Low and DRE = Off. However I did measure a big difference for the other DRE settings (dotted lines is the same reference measurement as for Colour Management above):

DRE Mid:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/19dre-mid-gamma-0.png

DRE High:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/20dre-high-gamma-0.png

Here's ACL = On:
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/22acl-gamma-0.png

... and Gamma = 3 (don't know what happen with my measurement of Gamma set to 2, forgot to save the measurement probably):
http://hem.bredband.net/b657185/pictures/PioCMS/24gamma3-gamma-0.png

Interesting, I measured no difference between DRE = Low and DRE = Off. However I did measure a big difference for the other DRE settings

Great contribution Wolfy,
the fact is that I was watching at the DVE video demos and at a certain point there's a yellow grasshopper that has black spots and black eyes; those blacks are blacks in DRE=1 while DRE=0 gives sort of greys.....didn't have a try though measuring the two... wich do you prefer?

I guess I'm a skeptic against any of these "image enhancers". I have them all turned off.

I guess I'm a skeptic against any of these "image enhancers". I have them all turned off.

Indeed, mee to.

Hi Wolfy, have you got some calibration results to post?

Nope, waiting for a straight serial cable then I'll start to rock'n'roll again ;)

Found some info about grayscale nonlinearity and as we were suspecting:

Non-linear gray scale tracking is a common problem, particularly with digital display devices. The issue is that different levels of gray are different colors.

In this picture, http://www.lionav.com/images/dc/gray_sca.jpg the background behind Benjamin has a slightly Bluish tint to the darkest gray scale shades, turns Greenish through the mid-range, and ends up with a Reddish tint toward the top.

Note how difficult these patterns would be to determine visually using just the picture of Benjamin (without the gradient background).

and

This graph http://www.lionav.com/images/dc/bad_gray.jpg shows what we witnessed visually: Bluish at the bottom end, Greenish through the middle, and Reddish at the top. However, we can now see exactly what adjustments need to be made at various locations in the Gray Scale to correct the image.

Fixing non-linear gray scale tracking can have a major impact on the believability of the image.

Source: Lion Audio\Video (http://www.lionav.com/info.php)

here is my calibration of my 5080 in the service menu

here is my calibration of my 5080 in the service menu

Hi there ikeb,
it would be nice if you could comment how did you get there and what difficulties you've found, if any.
Did you follow Huffman's guide? Did you touch the grayscale in the lows? I think I've read someweher that Pioneer advises not do so in the service menu....
BTW: can you republish the HCFR grayscale graph with a 80-120 scale?

One tipycal beheaviour when calibrating my TV is the following:
- you set some good initial brightness/contrast and get a good gamma value.
- while you cycle through the calibration steps, gamma drops to lower values..

Do you beleive it is a typical calibration-cycle side effect or a Pioneer peculiarity?

Does this mean we should start with higher than reccomended contrast values?

Wolfy what DVD are you using? HCFR or getgray?

yes i used huffmans guide along with getgrey and hcfr. but using getgrey it was too difficult to use 90 and 30 so i used 80 and 30 on getgrey.
Pioneer has stated that one should not adjust the lows, but i have been told that it will not hurt anything.

difficulties - ran the grey scale a dozen times to get the right numbers - unfortunately the 5080 is not able to be totally corrected. you can only get close (green is impossible) . the service menu in the 5080 can only do so much and with out being able to correct the actual primary and secondary colors and coordinating those new colors with the greay scale - its almost a waste of time trying to get the 5080 accurate.

but its a lot better than what it was from the factory.

i also found something important out - get the 5080 as close to 6500k as possible in the service menu and then do a grey scale when in the User mode and the 6500 and gamma line up very, very well


Hi there ikeb,
it would be nice if you could comment how did you get there and what difficulties you've found, if any.
Did you follow Huffman's guide? Did you touch the grayscale in the lows? I think I've read someweher that Pioneer advises not do so in the service menu....
BTW: can you republish the HCFR grayscale graph with a 80-120 scale?

yes i used huffmans guide along with getgrey and hcfr

Did you go for REC601 or 709? And how does the image compares to D-Nice or Bumtious settings?

709 and pretty close to d-nice

as a matter of fact - cna't really see the differenece from mine and d-nices settign when actually watching the tv because mine and his are pretty close -

i ran a grey scale in service menu, user and movie

user is closest to the service menu and move is a totally different animal -

i now use user for dtv and blu-ray movies, although i like to switch to movie sometimes for blu-ray.

my next tv will be a 2009 pioneer 60" elite. and i will calibrate it myself. the


Did you go for REC601 or 709? And how does the image compares to D-Nice or Bumtious settings?

Wolfy what DVD are you using? HCFR or getgray?I use DVE Pro (gray scale, reference) and GetGray (colors), but I have used HCFR too.

Update in first post: calibration info and links to calibration related articles

I'm getting closer to target!

- I've changed the patterns now using, Getgray. Much better readings, constant, less "spiky". Maybe HCFR DVD patterns are too small for plasma and the drifts are bigger... very happy, now I can concentrate on the tweaks!

I've set the sensor recal in HCFR every 1 minute, so every measurement run i'm recalibrating.

Every one hour I phisically reset the sensor, closing HCFR, and detaching the USB plug for a few seconds.

I'm very happy because while the graphs are slightly better than the last published, the image has hugely improved; no more greenish skins, very accurate colors.

Most of all I've been comparing my results with Bumtious settings and for the first time since my first attempts.... mine look better!!! :) :)

I can still improve, last night I've stopped at the and of a fine grayscale adjustment, so will need at least one run into the cycle.....BTW now I'm using Calman's suggested workflow and awaiting for Huffman's comments about it:

1) Set the brightness and contrast
2) Measure the color gamut
3) Adjust the location of the primaries using the CMS
4) Set the color temperature and gamma
5) Adjust the grayscale
6) Touch-up the brightness and contrast, if needed
7) Measure the color gamut
8) Adjust the location of the secondaries
9) Adjust the color decoder
10) Touch-up the grayscale, if needed
11) Adjust the other picture-oriented controls

No news, good news..... but..... I feel like Norgay and Hillary in theyr attempts before makeing it to the summit, just because.... it's there!

To be honest, I've stopped for a while awaiting to understand what are the correct primaries for PAL users.... nobody can give a 100% answer at the moment; I will probabily end using one ISF input for REC709 (basically good for also for PAL) and one for SMPTE-C. Once done test them.

The other reason for my very long pitstop was due to how to use properly the G9 tool....and when in the calibration flow....
maybe Wolfy could take a chance publishing some charts showing what happens when changing values for a given channel? It could take a long time to test given the 9 points....

The debate is open :)

Would any of you guys mind posting your in-tv calibrations ? I have the PDP 5080 , and would like to compare your settings to mine. Greatly appreciated.

Conclusion: Don't touch Pioneer's so called Colour Management!

Granted, I haven't tried to find a method to fix the problems with the gray scale tracking as a result of using Pioneer's CM, but frankly it quickly goes towards diminishing returns, i.e. it's simply not worth the effort (IMHO) and on the positive side Pioneer's gamut is very close using Colour Space 2 so you really don't have to mess with moving the primaries (IMHO).
I would definitely agree with this. While it is nice that Pioneer has made an attempt at implementing a colour management system, it is completely useless from my experience with it on a 5080XD. When you start making adjustments, it wrecks your greyscale, which is far more important.

Not only that, but I would recommend using colour space 1 which is, if I remember correctly, the wider colour space. While colour space 2 looks far more accurate on a CIE diagram, the luminance was far too low, and this wasn't able to be corrected as colours started clipping before you could get it high enough.

Obviously it would be best to have everything correct, but I feel that it is better to have a slightly wider gamut with the correct luminance rather than a correct gamut but with colours that aren't bright enough.

I hope they have improved this somewhat with the 9G models, but it doesn't sound like that's likely.

Would any of you guys mind posting your in-tv calibrations ? I have the PDP 5080 , and would like to compare your settings to mine. Greatly appreciated.

It's difficult to compare your settings with others...it is commonly accepted (dunno if it's true) that every set is different from others, so just copying settings isn't the best, unless you're lucky.

I have no special settings yet because I'm experimenting... but sooner or later someone will start publishing "his" settings, including G9 table.

In the meanwhile you can stick to D-Nice (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858851) or Bumtious (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=544315) settings, weather you're sporting an American or European model...

In the meanwhile you can stick to D-Nice (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858851) or Bumtious (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=544315) settings, weather you're sporting an American or European model...
what's the difference? i have a European 4280 and using D-nice's break-in settings with break-in dvd and his reference settings with SM offsets for regular watching? Would i get better PQ with bumtious settings cause those two SM offsets really vary? thx

The choice is for european (bumtious) or american models (D-nice).

Remember that each set is different from each other, so once enterd those settings you will adjust them to make them pleasant to you

thx for quick response, will try bumtious settings later :)

Hi all,

I've started the onerous process of trying to calibrate my recently acquired Pro110FD. Similar to what others have experienced, I have found the nasty interaction between Pioneer's CMS and gray scale calibration.

This reminds me of the famous "Heisenberg uncertainty principle" in physics: you can measure the position of an electron precisely, but you can't be sure how fast it is going (and vice versa).

It seems with the 8G Kuros, you can calibrate the grayscale precisely if you leave the CMS untouched. This is what I first did. And then, I looked at the CIE chart, and noticed that blue was significantly oversaturated, and green was a bit understaturated, and red was a bit oversaturated (in Color Space 2). So, I decided to "tweak" the CMS. I had to move the Blue value quite a bit (+15) towards Magenta, to fix the Blue primary location. The others needed smaller changes.

But, now my gray scale was all a mess, so I tried to fix that, and of course, the primaries started to move again. Finally, the gamma curve looks totally strange -- an S shape, rising steeply > 3 in the low-end, and falling sharply in the higher end towards 1.

I'm calibrating with HCFR and EyeOne Display 2. Any pointers would be most appreciated!

The real color errors on these displays that can be corrected with the CMS are generally small. What you are likely seeing with RGBMCY are errors in your tools. Using low quality tools to adjust the CMS is more likely to make the colors worse than better.

What puzzles me about the Pro110FD is why the gamma curve is so badly off. The gray scale and the color primaries are really accurate, even without much tampering. But, the gamma curve is simply bizarre -- > 3 at low IREs and ~1 at high IREs, instead of staying flat.

Any suggestions for fixing the gamma? I have the gamma set at 2 in the default menu.

To fix the gamma you will need to turn the contrast down.

I took down contrast from 30 to 20, which had some effect, but it is still 2.8 or so
at the low end, and < 1.5 at the high end (average 2.1).

Does brightness affect gamma at all? The gray scale is tracking really close to 65 at this point, and the RGB levels are all in line from 20 IRE to 100 IRE (delta E < 2).

What puzzles me about the Pro110FD is why the gamma curve is so badly off. The gray scale and the color primaries are really accurate, even without much tampering. But, the gamma curve is simply bizarre -- > 3 at low IREs and ~1 at high IREs, instead of staying flat.

Any suggestions for fixing the gamma? I have the gamma set at 2 in the default menu.You are the third person to note a S-shaped gamma when calibrating with the Display2 probe. I've seen no reports of S-shaped gamma curves with other probes. It is my conclusion that one should not use a Display2 probe to calibrate a Kuro.

Well I'll take a chance asking the Bigs to say what is theyr experience with the Display LT/2 on plasmas/Kuros.... mine is not so good... they may lough on it, but maybe they can witness theyr experience if they did ever tried that sensor on plasmas in the early days of theyr carrier.

I remember Jeff's (umr) profetic words adviseing to use nothing below the i1pro.... and time is putting his words up... I've also read an old thread of him giving it up with filter based meters (was it the Display LT?)....

Wolfy and me have been stretching that sensor without gaining quality results. He (Wolfy) is still gathering data from his new calibration software and will give a definitive virdict on it soon.

BTW Xrite is discourageing Display LT usage with plasmas, in favour of the Hubble 8k meter, well-suited in theyr opinion for plasmas, but it just may be marketing.

So we plasma/kuros-amateurs should probabily start to think seriously at the i1pro. Indeed the 20k meters will be better, but there have been too many people witnessing the i1pro as a good sensor with plasmas, so it may not be perfect, but good enough to acheive quality grade calibrations.

I took down contrast from 30 to 20, which had some effect, but it is still 2.8 or so
at the low end, and < 1.5 at the high end (average 2.1).

Does brightness affect gamma at all? The gray scale is tracking really close to 65 at this point, and the RGB levels are all in line from 20 IRE to 100 IRE (delta E < 2).

I just finished calibrating my Pro 150 using the i1Display 2 with HCFR. Here is my file plus my settings:

Main Menu:
AV Selection: Pure
Contrast: 38
Brightness: 0
Color: +5
Tint: R8
Sharpness: -15


Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Standard
Text Optimization: Off

Intelligence: Off


Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: Low
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 2


Color Detail:

Color Temp: Manual
R High -3
G High -3
B High +1
R Low -4
G Low 0
B Low -1

CTI: Off

Color Management
R 0
Y +8
G -4
C +10
B +2
M +7

Color Space: 2


Noise Reduction:

3DNR: Off
Field NR: Off
Block NR: Off
Mosquito NR: Off

Power Save Mode: Off

Orbiter: Mode 2 (Dot-by-dot) mode 1 (All other stretch modes)

Jim

Well, I ended up doing a relatively simplified calibration. In Pure mode, I have adjusted the RGB gains/cuts so that the gray scale is almost perfect, and deltaE values are all well below 2 all the way from 10IRE to 100 IRE. The CIE primary colors are almost right for Red and Green, and a bit oversaturated for Blue (without tampering with the Pioneer CMS).

I'm going to leave it like this for a while till I get more hours on the panel (it is a fairly new unit). I think to really get the CMS working, I need more control of the grayscale with something like the ISF C3/CalmanCAL software.

It looks like the I1/Pro may be the next upgrade, if I want to really shell out another $500 or so for a colorimeter. Not right now after paying the big bucks for the 110FD!

Time to enjoy the TV for a while....

Does brightness affect gamma at all? The gray scale is tracking really close to 65 at this point, and the RGB levels are all in line from 20 IRE to 100 IRE (delta E < 2).

Yes, brightness will affect the low end of the gamma curve. How did you set your brightness control? Did you use a black bars test pattern?

cheers,


--tom

I set brightness using the standard PLUGE pattern.

...Wolfy and me have been stretching that sensor without gaining quality results. He (Wolfy) is still gathering data from his new calibration software and will give a definitive virdict on it soon.

I have now posted my results, in this thread (post #56 and onwards) (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31&page=3).

Not sure what to say really. I think that this became a tad bit too much for an ad hoc assessment. I think one would require a reference sensor, at least a i1 Pro, and a number of different plasma TV:s to come to a conclusion.

Having said that, I'm very interested in getting feedback from others and perhaps a conclusion can be reached, if Display 2/LT is or is not suitable for use with plasmas in general or perhaps with Pioneer Kuro in particular, with the experiences of others and some follow up?

I finally got great results calibrating my Pro110FD. I discovered one of the problems was that I was generating the test patterns from HCFR itself, and that was giving incorrect readings (the gamma came out all wrong). When I generated the test patters from the AVS HD-DVD, wham, the gamma measured flat as a pancake right around 2.2. Something is really wrong with the test patterns from HCFR (or else, there is some strange setting that can give you very incorrect gamma curves).

I used ControlCAL ISF CC to fine tune the calibration -- this is a really nice piece of software that lets you define two new settings (ISFDay and ISFNight), and lock down the parameter values once you finish calibrating the TV from within the software. That is really nice because you can't mess the calibration by playing with the remote.

The colors are absolutely spot on, the gray scale is very smooth (with a couple of small bumps that I am not going to tear my hair out over), and the gamma curve measures fine. Time to sit back and watch some nice hi-def movies.....

Could you post your .chc?

Here are two HCFR calibration files for my Pro110FD, one where gamma is near 2.2 and pretty flat but the grayscale is not, and vice versa. This illustrates the interaction between grayscale and gamma. Also, the CIE chart is pretty close to accurate with some adjustments made to Pioneer's CMS. This explains partly the slightly bumpy gray scale.

All in all, the calibration shows the high quality of this TV. Far better in my experience than what I was able to coax out of a Sony SXRD (whose primaries are really inaccurate).

He also posted HERE (http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=659#post659), blutarsky, hopefully you can comment there.

-Shawn

Blutarsky, et. al.

As an owner of two Kuro Elites I appreciate the time and effort that has gone into this thread so...THANK YOU.

After puring through the postings it seems to me that the CMS is a PITA and the hreyscale is fine as long as the CMS controls are left in their default position...thus, is it wise to proceed as follows:

1. Display Mode = Pure
2. CMS controls = Default / 0
3. Color Space = 2
4. Perfrom grayscale calibration.
5. Forget CMS

A final thought...as an owner of a RadianceXD it strikes me that the only way to easily get GREAT RESULTS is to get a RadianceXD to calibrate the set as it seems that the controls are simply (i) much too interactive to be useful and (ii) much to course to be of any meaningful use...

Joel, it would be interesting to know what meter and software are you using and if you have some .chc to post, with/without the Radiance.

Joel, it would be interesting to know what meter and software are you using and if you have some .chc to post, with/without the Radiance.


Blutarsky:

As of right now my Kuro Elite is NOT being fed by my RadianceXD but that could change...in terms of hardware I have an i1Pro, an x-rite CA-6X and an AccuPel HDG-4000 and. in terms of software, I have CalMAN Pro...

That said, after this thread, I may change the wiring so that the RadianceXD does feed Kuro Elite as calibrating th eKuro Elite seems to be a combination of luck as well as a test in patience due to the non-linearity of the coontrols once the CMS is touched -- talk about DUMB!

The one other point that I will make is that I am very sensitive to accurate colour and do not -- dor some reason -- find the Kuro Elite colouring objectionable...now, after nailing gamma, grayscale and primaries/secondaries spot on with my RadianceXD I would likely feel differently.

I finally got great results calibrating my Pro110FD. I discovered one of the problems was that I was generating the test patterns from HCFR itself, and that was giving incorrect readings (the gamma came out all wrong). When I generated the test patters from the AVS HD-DVD, wham, the gamma measured flat as a pancake right around 2.2. Something is really wrong with the test patterns from HCFR (or else, there is some strange setting that can give you very incorrect gamma curves).....

That is some interesting information. I also have the S shaped gamma on my 110FD and was convinced it was the Eye-One D2 that was the problem. I am using the Get-Gray DVD and tried it on two different Blu-Ray and DVD players and got the same S-shaped results.

Unfortunately I don’t have a HD-DVD player available to try out. Does anyone know if the new DVE HD Basic (Blu-Ray) disc has usable test patterns for calibrating gray scale?

I did read that a S shaped gamma is sometimes used to correct for the natural gamma of print film. I wonder if the 110FD has a hidden gamma function that switches to the S gamma when it thinks it is film based material ie. 24fps or something like that.

when using hcfr via pc/laptop to generate the signals it is all being processed by the graphik card as well, could get wierd results. Better to use a test dvd with patterns. Also with a plasma, using full screen test patterns WILL lead to screwy gamma curves as plasmas aren't built to output full power on all the pixel at the same time. Use patterns that only illuminate a smaller square in the middle.

Use patterns that only illuminate a smaller square in the middle.

Not too small, they can bring you unpleasant drifts...HCFR DVD's are too small, IMO.

You get better results with getgray's (SD) and AVCHD's (HD) patterns

Blutarsky, et. al.

As an owner of two Kuro Elites I appreciate the time and effort that has gone into this thread so...THANK YOU.

After puring through the postings it seems to me that the CMS is a PITA and the hreyscale is fine as long as the CMS controls are left in their default position...thus, is it wise to proceed as follows:

1. Display Mode = Pure
2. CMS controls = Default / 0
3. Color Space = 2
4. Perfrom grayscale calibration.
5. Forget CMS

A final thought...as an owner of a RadianceXD it strikes me that the only way to easily get GREAT RESULTS is to get a RadianceXD to calibrate the set as it seems that the controls are simply (i) much too interactive to be useful and (ii) much to course to be of any meaningful use...

I redid the calibration of my PRO 150 using an i1D2 & HCFR. This time I followed Tom Huffman's Calibration Guidlines. I made sure than the Color was set such that Red Y was 21% of White Y, Green Y 71% of White Y, and Blue Y 8% of White Y. I rechecked the greyscale and the CMS using the CIE Gamut. Here are the 150 settings after this calibration:
Main Menu:
AV Selection: Pure
Contrast: 34
Brightness: 0
Color: +2
Tint: G3
Sharpness: -15


Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Standard
Text Optimization: Off

Intelligence: Off


Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: Low
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 2


Color Detail:

Color Temp: Manual
R High -3
G High 0
B High +6
R Low -1
G Low 0
B Low -4

CTI: Off

Color Management
R -7
Y +2
G -3
C -3
B -1
M -1

Color Space: 2


Noise Reduction:

3DNR: Off
Field NR: Off
Block NR: Off
Mosquito NR: Off

Power Save Mode: Off

Orbiter: Mode 2

What shocked me was the prior calibration gave the same greyscale and CMS numbers with the Color set at +8 and Tint to G2.

I will say that now the skin tones are realistic and don't look like everyone just got out of a tanning booth. The Red Y was 28% of the Y white on the prior calculation .

I thought I would share this. I could have saved a lot of time if I had followed Tom Huffman's guidelines earlier.

Jim

Sirluckyj,

Quick question. Do you think it would be possible to get the same results using the Movie or User Mode instead of Pure? The reason I ask is that the European/Asian models do not have Pure and I am thinking of getting a Display LT and planning calibration on my own. I also do not live in Europe, I am way over here in Malaysia...

Sirluckyj,

Quick question. Do you think it would be possible to get the same results using the Movie or User Mode instead of Pure? The reason I ask is that the European/Asian models do not have Pure and I am thinking of getting a Display LT and planning calibration on my own. I also do not live in Europe, I am way over here in Malaysia...

No. Those modes would give different results.

Jim

Hi,

Just read some interesting comments in this thread re: s-shaped gamma curves while calibrating with an Eye One.

I use an EODLT, and I wrote the following in another thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14205351#post14205351) before I found this one:

Something noteworthy: while calibrating the 4280, the gamma also started out with a downward tracking slope (s-shaped). Somewhere during calibration (I have no idea what changed/happened), the contrast setting I used to measure ~34 ftL on a 100% white window suddenly was giving me 26-28 ftL. But a beneficial effect that came with this weird change was the gamma tracking suddenly snapped straight - no sweat, just up the contrast control a bit. This happened some time between iterations of me adjusting R-high and B-high, and it hasn't deviated from it's very flat gamma tracking since.

I see a couple of settings for the Pro 150. Can they also be used for the 1150?

Hi, I had ordered a professional ISF calibration for my Pioneer 428XD and the guy (Otto) showed up with all of his "tools" and got to work, but when he wanted to SAVE the settings he got the message "ERR" on the ISF screen!! Does anyone know how to solve this problem?? He would call Pioneer himself, but just in case I would ask in this forum. :)

Is that Otto Joergensen?

He can contact me, he uses an older application for the 8G's (he has ControlCAL for some of the 9G Models)......

That is indeed Otto Jørgensen :eek: thank you very much I will give him the message :)

Guys, if you could take look at this post it would be greatly appreciated. thx.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1098103

FWIW, I calibrated my Sammy Plasma with the i1 Display LT. Then had a well respected and well known pro calibrator calibrate grey scale (just to see how it would compare). He used a Chroma 5 for the grey scale. In essense the grey scale was pretty much spot on to my Display LT.

He also used that device to measure color and it was also spot on to the i1 LT. Now, having said that, some argue that even the Chroma 5 is not useful for measuring primaries/secondaries as I believe it uses similar technology to the i1 devices. I also can't comment on why he didn't use the other device he had (a much more expensive "old camcorder" looking device to measure color) but it could have been because he was under the impression he was only doing grey scale which may have been my fault.

FWIW

Thanks for this thread btw, a friend of mine picked up a 5080 recently and I was going to try and calibrate it. Looks like I'll just do grey scale though.