I have just been using an SPL meter to manual tweak the speaker levels in my new set up. The manual for my sub (SVS 25-31PCi) suggests that the sub should be set 4db-6db higher than the speakers. With the sub's volume knob at halfway, I currently have it set at about 78db (& it is showing -3.0 on the AVR).

Is this a general rule of thumb to have the sub set a few db’s higher than the speakers??

Some like it hot.

From what I have gathered my limited time here, most people run their subs a few db higher, some as much as 5, 6 db higher.

From what I have gathered my limited time here, most people run their subs a few db higher, some as much as 5, 6 db higher.

Stating "most people" is probably stretching it.

Depends whether or not you like your sub to run a little louder. I have a 20-39PCi and I run it even with my other speakers.

I run my subwoofer the same level as my speakers fwiw

I have just been using an SPL meter to manual tweak the speaker levels in my new set up. .......snip.... With the sub's volume knob at halfway, I currently have it set at about 78db (& it is showing -3.0 on the AVR).

Is this a general rule of thumb to have the sub set a few db’s higher than the speakers??You do not say at what level you have set the other speakers. As has been stated, Some Like it hot. Assuming ( which is not good), that all of your speakers are running a flat response, and they are set at 75 dBSPL, then with your sub set at 78dBSPL you are running them 9 dB hotter than the mains.

Sounds funny, I know. They would read 9 dB hotter on a Freq response graph assuming, as I say, all the responses were flat. This is only becasue the SPL meter measures the total energy. So with 2 ocatves (20-80) for the subs and 8 ocatves for the mains you get the difference as stated.

The real answer is, of course, how it sounds to you. An eye opener may be to move your ears/meter to different spot just for kicks to see how it sounds/measures. :)

Sounds funny, I know. They would read 9 dB hotter on a Freq response graph assuming, as I say, all the responses were flat. This is only becasue the SPL meter measures the total energy. So with 2 ocatves (20-80) for the subs and 8 ocatves for the mains you get the difference as stated.



Totally and completely false. You aren't sending a full-band pink noise signal to each speaker! Any calibration test tones are designed to account for this phenomenon. In the case above, his sub is 3dB "hot".

Most people run the subwoofer a few dB too hot because they don't listen to movies at full reference level. It is actually proper to run the sub a little hot at lower listening levels to maintain the same balance and effects as intended by the sound designer.

And a lot has to do what level you listen at. I think there are two main reasons people increase their sub a few db..1) The listen at less than reference level and since our ears don't here low freq as well as high, the lows need a boost to sound "right"....2) people like their bass.

Personally, I run mine 3-4db hot compared to the mains as measured by RS SPL meter.

I do notice that when I listen to some concert discs at pretty loud levels I feel there is too much bass at drop it back down a couple db.

And a lot has to do what level you listen at. I think there are two main reasons people increase their sub a few db..1) The listen at less than reference level and since our ears don't here low freq as well as high, the lows need a boost to sound "right"....2) people like their bass.

Personally, I run mine 3-4db hot compared to the mains as measured by RS SPL meter.

I do notice that when I listen to some concert discs at pretty loud levels I feel there is too much bass at drop it back down a couple db.

I feel basically the same. I listen to DVD at lower than reference level, if by reference level you mean Relative 0 (Absolute 82). The loudest I normally go is around -7 (75)... Zero is too loud for my HT experience :rolleyes:. I run my sub about +4 for DVDs which seems to give it a nice kick. I listen to Cable TV at even lower levels, sometimes much lower depending on what I am watching and time of day, but often below 65 Absolute. I run my sub a few db hotter then too, maybe only +2, +3.

Well done rynberg -
Just like the OP, I did not state which type of excitation signal my example referred to. For the record the example was with pink noise. In particular, the test signal that would follow the example most easily would be that from say AVIA utilizing 80HZ crossovers. In that case, utilizing the AVR bass managment, none of the speakers would incur a "full-band pink noise signal " - again as I pointed out, with mains high pass filtered at 80 Hz and sub(s) low pass filtered at 80 HZ. Indeed, using a "test tone" is completely different and matching sub levels in that manner could be quite prone to the result in the eye-opener I spoke of at the end of my original post.

As far as "Totally and completely false", I think you will find the math and attendant arithmetic are correct. I made no judgement concerning the level to run the subs since AVR features, Loudness perception and personal preference all weigh in.
Totally and completely false. You aren't sending a full-band pink noise signal to each speaker! Any calibration test tones are designed to account for this phenomenon. In the case above, his sub is 3dB "hot".

Most people run the subwoofer a few dB too hot because they don't listen to movies at full reference level. It is actually proper to run the sub a little hot at lower listening levels to maintain the same balance and effects as intended by the sound designer.

So with 2 ocatves (20-80) for the subs and 8 ocatves for the mains you get the difference as stated.

Argh, a little knowledge is indeed dangerous. Where do you guys get this stuff?

Running hot or not is as simple as trying a few levels out yourself and seeing what you like. Try music, and some bass heavy movie scenes. It won't take much to see what you like.

Also be sure to look into EQing your sub with a BFD or something else. The bass range is a really a rollercoaster, most have at least 10-20db dips and peaks between 20-100hz.

I run my subs up a few db (they are +- 3db at my main seat), I like the way it sounds.

You do not say at what level you have set the other speakers.


Using the AVR’s pink noise, I have set the other speakers to 75db. I think the AVR automatically selects -30 for the volume when listening to pink noise and adjusting channel levels. Therefore would 0 be the ‘reference level’? I have currently got the sub set at 78db (well, it wavers between 77db & 80db). Not sure if it matters (or relates to this) but my crossovers are set to 80hz and the LFE lowpass has been set at 120hz (as recommended on the Audyssey thread).

Judging the responses so far it seems it is really a matter of taste whether to have the sub at the same level as the speakers or slightly hotter. I listen to most things (cable etc) between -30 to -20 (depending on the content). When watching BD’s I generally have it between -15 to -10. It has sounded fine so far, although as mentioned in a previous post, when listening to music it can be slightly bass heavy….


Assuming ( which is not good), that all of your speakers are running a flat response, and they are set at 75 dBSPL, then with your sub set at 78dBSPL you are running them 9 dB hotter than the mains.

My receiver gives me the options to run the speakers 'Audyssey', 'Flat' or 'Front'. I have selected the 'Audyssey' option.

Using the AVR’s pink noise, I have set the other speakers to 75db. I think the AVR automatically selects -30 for the volume when listening to pink noise and adjusting channel levels. Therefore would 0 be the ‘reference level’? I have currently got the sub set at 78db (well, it wavers between 77db & 80db). Not sure if it matters (or relates to this) but my crossovers are set to 80hz and the LFE lowpass has been set at 120hz (as recommended on the Audyssey thread).

Judging the responses so far it seems it is really a matter of taste whether to have the sub at the same level as the speakers or slightly hotter. I listen to most things (cable etc) between -30 to -20 (depending on the content). When watching BD’s I generally have it between -15 to -10. It has sounded fine so far, although as mentioned in a previous post, when listening to music it can be slightly bass heavy….




My receiver gives me the options to run the speakers 'Audyssey', 'Flat' or 'Front'. I have selected the 'Audyssey' option.

Remember though, there is a difference between sub and LFE. You should measure reference in your mains while playing full frequency pink. This means (assuming you all are using an 80hz bass management crossover sending ALL bass to the sub) the proper way to measure would be each speaker plus the sub at the same time set to reference. The LFE level would be measured separately.

AVR's really mess up this measurement by not measuring full frequency pink because they don't measure the mains with the sub when using bass management. The reference level specifications assume full frequency mains plus LFE rather than bass limited mains with sub augmentation plus LFE.

The attempt to split that signal and send part to the mains and part to the sub in the hope of getting near flat response is futile when you are not measuring tones that way. Therefore, if you are that picky, AVR tones should only be used for level balancing between channels (of course your levels would also likely measure differently when playing full frequency vs. high passed). To go after flat response, you would need to run tones from something like Avia so you can measure channels with the sub on.

Second, if you have an AVR that plays pink tones at a reduced volume, that really messes things up because your room will react very differently at different volume levels. It really needs to be toned at the listening level.

AVR's really mess up this measurement by not measuring full frequency pink because they don't measure the mains with the sub when using bass management. The reference level specifications assume full frequency mains plus LFE rather than bass limited mains with sub augmentation plus LFE.That's the benefit of AVIA's method of calibrating the sub with bass-managed tones (not LFE) and the speakers set to SMALL.

That's the benefit of AVIA's method of calibrating the sub with bass-managed tones (not LFE) and the speakers set to SMALL.

So is a calibration disc (such as AVIA) the only way to calibrate the system properly? Would the results differ greatly from those using the AVR’s pink noise??

So is a calibration disc (such as AVIA) the only way to calibrate the system properly? Would the results differ greatly from those using the AVR’s pink noise??The pink noise is usually fine for the speakers. Even with the speakers set to SMALL, unless the crossover is really high, the sub probably doesn't participate in reproducing the pink noise directed to the speaker channels. But the pink noise is not really ideal for the sub. Someone here recently said you can rent AVIA from Netflix.

To answer your question in your original post, set your sub's volume where you prefer it. You can use the pink noise to get in the ballpark, but then you can adjust it to taste. There really is no "rule" as to how it should be adjusted with the SPL meter. As someone said, "some like it hot".

Even with the speakers set to SMALL, unless the crossover is really high, the sub probably doesn't participate in reproducing the pink noise directed to the speaker channels.

This is just plain wrong.

I run my subs 2-3dbs cold. SVS PC-Ultra, Servo15, Velodyne SMS-1.

I'm Canadian. I like it cold.

I have a different question - assuming 80 Hz crossover for all speakers - does subwoofer setting have ANY bearing on dialogue intelligibility? Another way to phrase it - does dialogue ever cover the frequency of 20 - 80 Hz? If so, this might be carry some incentive for running a couple db's hot. Room acoustics sometimes muddle dialogue and at times you need all the help you can get.


UPDATE: The answer is yes, but only the bottom end of the dialogue frequency. I only asked because I had challenges understanding the dialogue in "Gone Baby Gone." I then accidentally noticed that others found this as well, and it wasn't due to the Boston accents, it was due to poor sound-recording I think. As I watched the dvd I wondered if I had something set up incorrectly, but then I saw others found the dialogue to be slightly hard to understand on the dvd.

This is just plain wrong.Not really. If there is any output from the sub it is at least 2 orders of magnitude (that would be 20dB) lower than the level to which the speakers are being calibrated. So the output from any bass-managed pink noise that is sent to the sub from the SMALL main channels during calibration is completely negligible.

Not really. If there is any output from the sub it is at least 2 orders of magnitude (that would be 20dB) lower than the level to which the speakers are being calibrated. So the output from any bass-managed pink noise that is sent to the sub from the SMALL main channels during calibration is completely negligible.

Bunk. Really, where do you get this bad info? Using big terms like order of magnitude doesn't make it any more right, and the term doesn't even mean anything here regarding measurement.

The bass management passes everything lower than the crossover point at it's slope to the sub. You hear what you hear but you are making up the reason behind it.

First pink is weighted with bass progressively lower in level so people with too little understanding of what they are doing don't blow up their subs and speakers all the time. The weighting is reversed in the spl meter so there should be no change in your setup attributable to you thinking it sounds lower when playing pink. Second the human ear is progressively less sensitive as frequency goes down so you think it is even lower than it is.

Try lowering the volume and playing the LFE sweep of Avia with a meter. You'll notice measurable volume on the meter long after you can't hear it anymore.

Bunk. Really, where do you get this bad info? Using big terms like order of magnitude doesn't make it any more right, and the term doesn't even mean anything here regarding measurement.

The bass management passes everything lower than the crossover point at it's slope to the sub. You hear what you hear but you are making up the reason behind it.

First pink is weighted with bass progressively lower in level so people with too little understanding of what they are doing don't blow up their subs and speakers all the time. The weighting is reversed in the spl meter so there should be no change in your setup attributable to you thinking it sounds lower when playing pink. Second the human ear is progressively less sensitive as frequency goes down so you think it is even lower than it is.

Try lowering the volume and playing the LFE sweep of Avia with a meter. You'll notice measurable volume on the meter long after you can't hear it anymore.
Could you point out what part of:
...........the output from any bass-managed pink noise that is sent to the sub from the SMALL main channels during calibration is completely negligible........is bunk?



Why don't you try calibrating your front left speaker (set to SMALL, 80Hz crossover) with the receiver's tone, disconnecting the speaker, then playing the front left speaker tone again and tell me the measurable subwoofer output at the calibration volume (your receiver may default to a set level when calibrating; that's fine)? The amount of subwoofer output when playing the speaker tones is negligible. In order for the subwoofer output to contribute anything at all to the calibration volume of the speaker channel's tone, the sub's output would have to be almost the same 75dB (or 85dB) that you are calibrating the speaker to. It's not anywhere near that.

I didn't make up any "reason behind it", did I? I DO know what pink noise is. You claimed that with the speakers set to SMALL, the subwoofer output when playing the speaker tones affects the calibration. It doesn't.

And I'm well aware of the bass management behavior of a system when a sweep tone is played. AVIA's sweep is not pink noise, it's a tone (probably sine wave) sweep, so how it behaves is irrelevant, anyway.

I turn my sub WAAAAY UP!!! I dont even use an spl meter on the sub and turn it up til the room shakes and then leave it. I like me bassy boom booms!

I turn my sub WAAAAY UP!!! I dont even use an spl meter on the sub and turn it up til the room shakes and then leave it. I like me bassy boom booms!
Nice :rolleyes:

Pink noise isn't the best way to determine subwoofer level. A sine sweep is a way better way of hearing how your sub is blending in with your speakers. You can't hear hills and dips in the response with pink noise. If you want accurate bass the sub level and distance must be set just right. Measure the distance of your mains and sub and set volume levels or run auto setup if available to get a good starting point for level and distance. Run a 200Hz to 20Hz sine sweep through your system in stereo and listen then adjust the sub and crossover point for the flattest response. Stick in a music CD in and listen to hear if the bass sounds full. If your sub seems to boom, dominate, or seems to be able to be located, adjust the sub's distance on the receiver closer to you until they blend seamlessly. You might find after the sub's distance is adjusted correctly now that you'll wanna turn the sub up a notch or two since the bass may not seem boomy anymore. Adjust it if you wish and check it with a sine sweep again to confirm response. It may take a few times going back and forth between the test tone and music but there's nothing more pleasing to hear than natural sounding bass. Last piece of advice is don't listen to Siva. He's a wannabe.

If you calibrate the speakers and sub to 75dB, the sub is already 2~3dB hot, due to SPL meter sensitivity. If you do speakers at 75dB and sub at 78dB, yup, you're at 5~6dB hot.

I personally calibrate my sub even with speakers on the SPL meter, so I'm about 2~3dB hot. This is with bass traps and eq'ing the sub flat (to about 35Hz, with a natural rise below that).

The more time goes on, I adjust all channels to suit.During music DVD's I usually lower the rear and side surround then the subwoofer to taste.

There are no studio standards.The only thing that is a standard is your system. Adjust it as it sounds good to YOU.Thats all that matters.

FWIW I use the main LCR as reference.If at high volumes the sides and rears become distracting or too loud I lower them, no different for the sub.

KG

Adjusting your system for the sweetspot is very misleading.It's a good place to start, but I rarely do I stay there long.

I've often wondered if auto-calibrating AVRs were calibrating 'small' loudspeaker levels in their bass-managed state, rather than full range. I would have thought they do, since all auto-setups I've used set speaker size before anything else. Can anyone confirm brands that calibrate small as small?

Could you point out what part of:
.......is bunk?



Why don't you try calibrating your front left speaker (set to SMALL, 80Hz crossover) with the receiver's tone, disconnecting the speaker, then playing the front left speaker tone again and tell me the measurable subwoofer output at the calibration volume (your receiver may default to a set level when calibrating; that's fine)? The amount of subwoofer output when playing the speaker tones is negligible. In order for the subwoofer output to contribute anything at all to the calibration volume of the speaker channel's tone, the sub's output would have to be almost the same 75dB (or 85dB) that you are calibrating the speaker to. It's not anywhere near that.

I didn't make up any "reason behind it", did I? I DO know what pink noise is. You claimed that with the speakers set to SMALL, the subwoofer output when playing the speaker tones affects the calibration. It doesn't.

And I'm well aware of the bass management behavior of a system when a sweep tone is played. AVIA's sweep is not pink noise, it's a tone (probably sine wave) sweep, so how it behaves is irrelevant, anyway.

Well, you didn't address your own crapiche about orders of magnitude but at least you made my point for me.

As I said before receiver tones are useless for anything but channel balancing, and they aren't even all that good for that. Try your own test using pink noise from a disk and you will get bass from the sub. Your way tests each speaker in bass limited mode without the sub. Then you go back to listening and turn the sub on so you are not listening to what you just measured.

Well, you didn't address your own crapiche about orders of magnitude but at least you made my point for me.65dB is an entire log lower than 75dB. That's 10¹ or 10-fold. It is called "1 order of magnitude". 65dB is two logs lower than 85dB. That's 10² or 100-fold. It is called "2 orders of magnitude". 55dB is 3 logs lower than 85dB. That's 10³ or 1000-fold. It is called "3 orders of magnitude". Etc..


As I said before receiver tones are useless for anything but channel balancing, and they aren't even all that good for that. Try your own test using pink noise from a disk and you will get bass from the sub. Your way tests each speaker in bass limited mode without the sub. Then you go back to listening and turn the sub on so you are not listening to what you just measured.You implied that the bass-managed pink noise that is sent to the subwoofer from the speaker channels set to SMALL makes a significant contribution to the output when calibrating. It doesn't. In fact, my receiver doesn't apply bass management when using the reciever's calibration "tones" to calibrate and that is why I hear no output from the subwoofer. I believe this is how most receivers function.

On my receiver, the "tones" are fine for channel balancing. There is nothing you can do about the speakers having different low-end frequency responses. But it is the subwoofer calibration with the "tone" that can be problematic.

I think we both agree that the bass-managed "tones" (not LFE) on AVIA are the best for calibrating the subwoofer. But, whatever the "tones" are that are used to calibrate the individual speakers with AVIA, any bass-managed portion of that "tone" that is sent to the subwoofer during the calibration is negligible. Now, whether those "tones" are pink noise or not, I do not know.

so is there a test tone on this site http://www.ronelmm.com/tones/
that can be used for the sub. I would use my receiver's test tones for my other speakers.

I have just been using an SPL meter to manual tweak the speaker levels in my new set up. The manual for my sub (SVS 25-31PCi) suggests that the sub should be set 4db-6db higher than the speakers. With the sub's volume knob at halfway, I currently have it set at about 78db (& it is showing -3.0 on the AVR).

Is this a general rule of thumb to have the sub set a few db’s higher than the speakers??

set the SW at 0 on the AVR and use the knob at the back of the SW to change db level

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1016060


Just as a note, my receiver's calibration tones use band limited pink noise centered at 800 Hz (Green line). As far as the subwoofer is concerned, you have to adjust that to taste.



.

It is pretty much a personal choice.Go with what sounds good to you.

There are indeed professional standards for calibrating 5.1 systems.

The first post here (http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB6&Number=529464&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=all) has links to relevant sources. This list of links was put together by people who mix movies, music, and TV every day, and by people who make the products that help them do this.

There are explanations of why full bandwidth pink noise is not always the best choice - it builds-up in small rooms and provides false readings on SPL meters, so using an RTA is necessary. With full bandwidth pink noise an RTA is only measuring about three octaves of below-80-Hz, so yes, you will probably calibrate the subwoofer up 4-5 dB to compensate.

Some confusion also stems from the history of surround sound - in the first theaters where it was integrated, the LFE channel was designed to deliver as much bass content as all three main front channels combined, a difference of about +10 dB. This did not carry sounds duplicated in the mains, and the rooms were much bigger, so the calibration procedure was different.

Limited bandwidth pink noise - 40-80 for the subwoofer, and 500-2K for the mains - usually works great for a Bass Managed system, giving accurate results for both the subwoofer and the mains. The link to Blue Sky (http://www.abluesky.com) will take you to their download for suitable limited bandwidth pink noise that you can burn onto a CD. The AVIA tones are fine.

Best signal to noise is almost always achieved with the subwoofer (or other powered speaker or amplifier) up full and the output controlled at the source.