Hey guys, I'm working on putting together my new system and am thinking of returning my current sub after looking through a lot of the posts here. I tried to just read through all the current threads instead of creating a new one but after a couple hours I'm friggin' lost!

I'm currently running with an Onkyo 705 receiver with two Aperion 5Bs and an Aperion Bravus 10D sub. I'll eventually be adding an Aperion 5C center channel and two Aperion 5Ts (will then move my 5Bs to surround). I'm extremely happy with the 5Bs but think I can probably do better than the Aperion sub for the price. I LOVE the form factor of it (very small, awesome finish, remote tuning w/ built in LCD, etc.) and almost want to keep it because of that (I'm fairly big on looks) but of course it's a speaker so I need to go for better sound over looks and features.

The 10D sounds awesome at low and mid volume levels but if I push it hard at high volumes it does tend to get a bit muddy. It's rare that I would listen to it this loud but does happen occasionally. It cost me $799 and I'm not willing to pay $1099 to jump up to the 12D. Any help on finding something to replace it with would be greatly appreciated!

Looks are important but of course not as much as sound quality. $800 is the highest I can go. I'd prefer a smaller form factor but if there's a significant improvement in sound I can deal with bigger. Here is a picture of my living room setup with measurements.

http://danvpeterson.com/skitch//My_floor_plan-20080329-140445.png

There are two suggestions that come to mind.

1. AV123 MFW-15. Very good looking and an excellent performer. With a premium finish you should be able to get it shipped for around your price target. The problem is the back order situation. It will take months.

2. If the MFW is too large, consider the SVS SB12 Plus. Very compact and good-looking with a variety of finishes. You can get it with shipping for under your target price.

Hey guys, I'm working on putting together my new system and am thinking of returning my current sub after looking through a lot of the posts here. I tried to just read through all the current threads instead of creating a new one but after a couple hours I'm friggin' lost!

I'm currently running with an Onkyo 705 receiver with two Aperion 5Bs and an Aperion Bravus 10D sub. I'll eventually be adding an Aperion 5C center channel and two Aperion 5Ts (will then move my 5Bs to surround). I'm extremely happy with the 5Bs but think I can probably do better than the Aperion sub for the price. I LOVE the form factor of it (very small, awesome finish, remote tuning w/ built in LCD, etc.) and almost want to keep it because of that (I'm fairly big on looks) but of course it's a speaker so I need to go for better sound over looks and features.

The 10D sounds awesome at low and mid volume levels but if I push it hard at high volumes it does tend to get a bit muddy. It's rare that I would listen to it this loud but does happen occasionally. It cost me $799 and I'm not willing to pay $1099 to jump up to the 12D. Any help on finding something to replace it with would be greatly appreciated!

Looks are important but of course not as much as sound quality. $800 is the highest I can go. I'd prefer a smaller form factor but if there's a significant improvement in sound I can deal with bigger. Here is a picture of my living room setup with measurements.

http://danvpeterson.com/skitch//My_floor_plan-20080329-140445.png


If you are willing to wait until July, the AV123 MFW-15 in cherry, moho or another veneer would be a really good choice. If you can't wait that long most of the other choices are not very big on looks.

If you want something really soon, the HSU VTF 3.3 would be a good choice at ~$800. It is not small by any means, however, to get a substantial increase in performance without paying a lot more, the 3.3 would be a good choice. The other contender for under $800 would be the SVS PB-12 NSD. It has a new driver and a new amp and it is apparently a very very good performer. The PB-12 NSD may be even more attractive to you given the fact that it only costs about $650 delivered.

If you are ever in a position to add something to the HSU 3.3, the not very attractive Turbo Charger is an extra cost option that will add a substantial amount of really deep bass (16Hz), which is good for special effects and pipe organ music.

Before you give up on the Aperion, try it between the computer table and the couch. This will cut down on the distance between the sub and the LP. This may give you enough additional SPL to satisfy you. If it doesn't work, you're no worse off than you are now.

Looks are important but of course not as much as sound quality. $800 is the highest I can go. I'd prefer a smaller form factor but if there's a significant improvement in sound I can deal with bigger. Here is a picture of my living room setup with measurements.

You should check out this sub http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/sunfire-hrs-12-subwoofer. I have one coming tomorrow for eval and despite the MSLP, they can be had for < your price limit.

If your budget doesnt include the shipping and you can step over the looks preference, check out the sub I have (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=640&osCsid=bd7bb7bc9c2738b18c94621bd1c60789). $860 shipped with the 1300w amp. Its back ordered but not for as long as mwf-15.

Thanks guys, I'm debating hard on that MWF-15 now. I've just done a ton of "research" on it in these forums and others and it sounds like it is a damned killer sub! I've already gone back and forth like 5 times between keeping my 10D, getting in line for the MWF-15, or waiting to try and get A-stock (15% off) on an Aperion 12D. Extremely frustrating.

Really wish I didn't care so much about looks and size or I'd definitely just go with the MWF-15. I took a look at all of the other recommendations you guys had but couldn't find any "middle ground" I liked between those two. The Aperion subs are just so friggin' beautiful in person they make everything else look ugly to me, even with the great finishes AV123 has. Not to mention the remote adjustment has been a great bonus so far.

Thanks again for all the opinions! I've got about 25 days left to return my 10D so I'll use that time to think long and hard about it. If anyone has any other ideas, recommendations or comments that would be awesome!

Before you give up on the Aperion, try it between the computer table and the couch. This will cut down on the distance between the sub and the LP. This may give you enough additional SPL to satisfy you. If it doesn't work, you're no worse off than you are now.

Thanks for the suggestion but unfortunately the windows along that wall suck and if I have the sub close to them they rattle like nobodies business!

If you place a capable sub anywhere in your room, it will rattle the windows. But that is nobody's business.:)

You can also try behind the couch. What I am suggesting is you get the sub closer to the listening position.

Which finish do you have? Black is easier to match from other OEMs. The cherry will be a little more difficult.

you're going to be hard pressed to find a quality sealed sub with comperable specs, small size, low price, and the nice finish of the Aperion. The only thing I can come up with is the SVS SB12+, but I don't know if it will perform any better than the 10D and it does not have a remote. If you can't relocate the 10D, which you should try anyway, then maybe the 12D is your best option.

Greetings,

All the subs mentioned in this post should work awesome including that Bravus 10-D. I currently own a 12" Velodyne DPS 12, black piano finish, 220 watt amp coupled with my Aperion 5B's, 5C and 4 series surrounds. It blends in seemlessy with these Aperions and doesn't distort at high volumes.It keeps going the higher I turn the volume. It only cost me about $400 years ago so I'm having a hard time believing that new Bravus 10D has a hard time at higher volumes, that thing should perform as well as subs costing $300-$400 more. I know they put a lot of research and devlopment into that new line. I can attest to the fact that Aperion produces a beautiful looking product, world class build quality and can appriciate your desire to keep the sub based on looks, I would :)

That sub should outperform Aperions old s-12 sub. Aluminum Drivers, Bosh amps and dual drive should make that thing effortlessly pump out some serious, deep, smooth heart pumping, integrated bass. If you are getting distortion at high volumes then I would be really suprised. I'm just wondering if this is a setting problem and not a sub problem. When I first hooked up my system I did not like the way my velodyne sounded. It also distorted at higher volumes.

I talked with a very nice man on this forum (JIMP) who totally helped me get my $400 velodyne sounding like a $1000 sub with my Aperions. Here's a few suggestions I'd like to recommend based on my sub calibration discussion with JimP.
1. Your crossover on your sub shoud be disabled so you are using the receivers crossover system to control Bass Managment. This is usually referred to as direct mode. Using the crossover on the sub introduces more variables for the signal and will have a possible negative impact on performance. Check the manual to see how to set the crossover to direct.
2. Make sure your volume on your sub is set to the manufactures recommend levels. This is usually halfway up or a skosh less than halfway, it really doesn't take much to get subs going, check your manual for the aperions recommended default volume. To much power will introduce distortion and is not necessary. One major problem I had is that my volume level was way to high on my sub. I got muddiness and distortion in the 60-80hz frequencies because my sub volume was too high. I was suprised how much better the sub sounded by setting it to just below half way. Once you set to manufacturers default level leave the sub alone, you should now use the receiver to make the fine tuning level adjustments
3. Use an SPL Meter and test tone to adjust the sub level via your receiver levels for that channel. If you have avia do the subwoofer/center channel test and set the sub, via your receiver level controls for the subwoofer channel, so that the subwoofer is about 2-3 dB's higher than your center channel. Otherwise test tones from receiver should be fine

If you've done all this and you still get distortion from your sub then I would be amazed. Maybe your taste for bass is so large that the Bravus could not satisfy it.. Now my $400 velodyne blends in seemlessy and keeps going and going.

Hopefully you can figure out a way to keep that beautiful Bravus...I wish I could own one

My apologies if you knew all this, but if you did maybe someone could take something from it.

Good Luck and keep us posted. Enjoy your Aperions and I hope your experience with Aperion has been as awesome as mine has thus far!
Dan

Well after a lot of testing with moving the sub around and listening a lot more closely (along with taking it to a friends house and trying it hooked up in his room) I've fully realized it's just my old house that is causing what I thought was the muddiness of the sub at very high volumes. Still considering the MFW-15 and actually put an order in for it because I'm not convinced yet that this 10D is enough for me but it's possible I may cancel it.

I'm still having a problem that maybe someone here could help me figure out. I get plenty of bass at low to somewhat high volumes but once I hit about -5 volume on my Onkyo 705 it's like the treble is going up twice as fast as the bass? It almost seems like the bass just quits getting any louder when I get past 0 on the receiver's volume. Very odd.

More than likely, you are starting to push the sub to its limits. At this point it goes into compression and all you get is either more distortion or nothing more at all. Have you calibrated your system or are you playing it by ear?

Like Randy is saying, your sub is simply running out of headroom and reaching it's limits. You can't expect huge output out of a sub that small. You probably need either something larger or multple small subs.

Well after a lot of testing with moving the sub around and listening a lot more closely (along with taking it to a friends house and trying it hooked up in his room) I've fully realized it's just my old house that is causing what I thought was the muddiness of the sub at very high volumes. Still considering the MFW-15 and actually put an order in for it because I'm not convinced yet that this 10D is enough for me but it's possible I may cancel it.

I'm still having a problem that maybe someone here could help me figure out. I get plenty of bass at low to somewhat high volumes but once I hit about -5 volume on my Onkyo 705 it's like the treble is going up twice as fast as the bass? It almost seems like the bass just quits getting any louder when I get past 0 on the receiver's volume. Very odd.

That's dynamic compression. You've probably reached the sub's limits, in which case there's nothing you can do aside from adding another sub or getting a more powerful one. I don't know what "0" represents on your receiver, but in my setup from the listening position, "-1" is reference level on my receiver. That is VERY loud. Assuming your sub is calibrated FLAT with your other speakers (which I'd doubt, unless you've really made the effort to do so - if you haven't, it's a good bet it's calibrated a few dB hot), it will be required to produce peaks of around 115dB at the listening position. I'd highly doubt that sub can do that very easily. In fact, I'd consider any home subs that CAN do that to be the exception to the rule. To put things into perspective, my HT setup is in an 11x10x8 room with two SVS PB10-NSD subs and I've never measured above 114dB at my listening position. Your room is considerably larger than mine, and you're running one sub. It sounds like you really like to listen loud, in which case the MFW-15 you have on order should suit you very well.

If you have any way of checking your bass volume peaks with an SPL meter, that would be most enlightening. However, if your setup and receiver volume scales are anything like mine, it seems like you listen near reference level, in which case your single 10" sub simply won't cut it. You're experiencing lots of dynamic compression, and the sub is refusing to play any louder, even when you raise the volume. Keep trying things out, but that is my guess. Good luck.

Next time I'll wait for ransac and mojomike...it'll save me a lot of typing :). But if we're all immediately coming to the same conclusion, I'm pretty sure that's what it is.

Wow, very quick responses! Thanks guys :) . I am indeed "playing by ear" and don't even know how to calibrate my system with an SPL meter or anything (never even seen one of those although I've heard people talk about them a lot on this and other forums). I'm a total noob to audio geekdom, previously just a design geek ;)

It's not all that often that I will actually listen to my system that loud but it does happen occasionally (mostly when playing my own music or when I'm in other rooms cleaning or whatever :P ). I'm leaning toward returning the aperion sub at the moment and waiting for the MFW-15 but will give it a bit more time and listening.

I am glad to know the reasoning behind my "problem" though so thanks so much again! BTW, what is "reference level" in simple terms? I've heard the term a few times but can't seem to find a good definition on what it means exactly.

I guess you could say that "reference level" is Dolby's standard of how loud a movie should be listened to in order to experience the dynamic, powerful sound the director and sound engineers intended. Dolby reference level requires each of the channels to reproduce SPL peaks of up to 105dB at the listening position. The LFE channel (handled by your subwoofer) is required to reproduce peaks of up to 115dB at the listening position. Let's just say that's VERY loud. Most people find this to be uncomfortably loud, and if they don't, their neighbors usually do ;).

Calibrating your system to reference level using your receiver's test tones or a calibration disc like DVE is done by adjusting and balancing your speakers to play test tones at 75dB at the listening position. These tones are purposely played 30dB soft because they would be unbearably loud for extended periods of time, and could also possibly damage your speakers. The one exception to the 75dB rule is if you use the Avia Guide to Home Theater DVD - when using this disc, the SPL at the listening position should be 85dB when calibrating to reference level. When calibrating, whatever master volume setting results in 75dB (or 85dB with Avia) is "reference level". In my setup, with my room/receiver/speakers, reference level is at "-1" on my master volume.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to be practical about "reference level". The reason for this is that different DVD's are mastered at different volumes. Try playing a DVD, that has both Dolby Digital and DTS tracks. Chances are the DTS track will be quite a bit "louder", even at the same exact master volume setting on the receiver. Different movies, even if they're both Dolby Digital or both DTS, will also be louder or softer than each other at the same master volume on your receiver. Sometimes this difference can be significant. For example, I'll typically watch Star Wars II Attack of the Clones at around MV -5 or so. However, Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring (Extended, DTS track) seems just as loud around -11 or -12 on my master volume. The point is, while calibrating to "reference level" is certainly worthwhile, just because you play a movie at "reference level" on your receiver doesn't mean you'll be hearing things at Dolby's specification of 105dB peaks through all channels, 115dB peaks in LFE. Hope that helps a bit.

Fortunately, I waited for lakersfan to post. It saves me a lot of typing.:)

Whether you keep the 10D or you get something else, you need to find the proper placement and calibrate. You can get an SPL meter at Radio Shack for about $40. You can get free test tones, or pay for a calibration DVD like Avia. You can get both at SVS for about $80.

I haven't heard the 10D, but the specs make it appear to be a worthwhile sub. The only issue I see with it is a rather weak amp (300W) for dual 10" drivers in a sealed enclosure and the low end is only 30Hz -3db. I would contact Aperion and see if they have any suggestions.

Are you confident you have the other settings on your AVR correct?

Wow, very quick responses! Thanks guys :) . I am indeed "playing by ear" and don't even know how to calibrate my system with an SPL meter or anything (never even seen one of those although I've heard people talk about them a lot on this and other forums). I'm a total noob to audio geekdom, previously just a design geek ;)

It's not all that often that I will actually listen to my system that loud but it does happen occasionally (mostly when playing my own music or when I'm in other rooms cleaning or whatever :P ). I'm leaning toward returning the aperion sub at the moment and waiting for the MFW-15 but will give it a bit more time and listening.

I am glad to know the reasoning behind my "problem" though so thanks so much again! BTW, what is "reference level" in simple terms? I've heard the term a few times but can't seem to find a good definition on what it means exactly.

Yeah a dual drive 10" probably won't outperform the MFW-15 but I'm thinking that Bravus should be plenty in that room. If you played it by ear then I'm guessing you have the sub volume levels set too high, which would more than likely cause it to give way at the higher volumes you have been testing it with. The sub should blend seemlessly with your satellites and it shouldn't bring attention to itself. It shouldn't shake your room with most TV content , but it should come to life during car crashes, explosions, etc....And with music it shouldn't be overwhelming but it should blend in so it sounds like the Bass is coming from the 5B's. You shouldn't be expecting overpowering Bass with music, unless your into Rap and electronica! it's all about continuity and integration. So a good starting point would be to head to radio shack and pick up an SPL meter, then set your sub to the manufactures recommended setting and go from there. Once you get it setup properly and you still aren't happy then go for the 15" monster, but your neighbors aren't going to be happy about that :)


No matter how much you pay for a sub it will sound like crap if it is not properly calibrated and integrated into a system...A lot of people I know will go out and spend tons of money on a sub and expect it to sound awesome when they hook it up, but to their suprise it sound like crap, too boomy, muddy, distorted and stands out. When I first hooked my Velodyne up to my system I thought I needed another sub because it sounded like poo-poo. Of course we didn't take time to calibrate it first. Most mid priced subs, properly calibrated, will do the job well.

Oh and remember, those drivers might be a little tight to, give it a few hours to loosen up.

Good Luck.

Next time I'll wait for ransac and mojomike...it'll save me a lot of typing :).

Fortunately, I waited for lakersfan to post. It saves me a lot of typing.:)

Smart guy :p

I guess I should wait for both you guys!

I guess I should wait for both you guys!So it's agreed. None of us will post until one of the others does.:)

Now, if we can only get CADOBHuK and Domingos1965 to make the same agreement.;)

So it's agreed. None of us will post until one of the others does.:)

Now, if we can only get CADOBHuK and Domingos1965 to make the same agreement.;)

Good luck...

Exactly, good luck. Well, I waited for you guys! :D

Huh? I'm not sure what exactly are you people agreeing on but I saw my name so I guess I'm needed.
Thanks guys, I'm debating hard on that MWF-15 now. I've just done a ton of "research" on it in these forums and others and it sounds like it is a damned killer sub! I've already gone back and forth like 5 times between keeping my 10D, getting in line for the MWF-15, or waiting to try and get A-stock (15% off) on an Aperion 12D. Extremely frustrating.

Really wish I didn't care so much about looks and size or I'd definitely just go with the MWF-15. I took a look at all of the other recommendations you guys had but couldn't find any "middle ground" I liked between those two. The Aperion subs are just so friggin' beautiful in person they make everything else look ugly to me, even with the great finishes AV123 has. Not to mention the remote adjustment has been a great bonus so far.

Thanks again for all the opinions! I've got about 25 days left to return my 10D so I'll use that time to think long and hard about it. If anyone has any other ideas, recommendations or comments that would be awesome!


From the pictures I don't see how aperion looks any better than a cherry mwf-15. Looking at the specs, mwf-15 seems like a lot better performer. It would not choke at the high volumes. Only reasons to pick the 10D over it would be : 1) you cant wait 2) the sub must be tiny 3) you must have the remote control

OMG! :eek: I actually agree with that!

OMG! :eek: I actually agree with that!

Agree with what? This? :D

Huh? I'm not sure what exactly are you people agreeing on but I saw my name so I guess I'm needed.

Agree with what? This? :D

Huh? I'm not sure what exactly are you people agreeing on but I saw my name so I guess I'm needed.




Ha-ha-ha!!! That's a good one! :D

Well guys it looks like I'm getting the MFW-15. I placed the order for it a couple weeks ago just to "get in line" and figured I could cancel it later if I decided since it wasn't supposed to ship until July. Well it shipped early (today) so my choice was made for me! It's too late to cancel the MFW-15 (and returning it I'd have to pay shipping which is friggin' expensive) so I'm returning my Aperion 10D. Hopefully I'm happy with the 15!

Thanks again for all the helpful comments and ideas! Was all very greatly appreciated. I love the people on these forums. :)

Well guys it looks like I'm getting the MFW-15. I placed the order for it a couple weeks ago just to "get in line" and figured I could cancel it later if I decided since it wasn't supposed to ship until July. Well it shipped early (today) so my choice was made for me! It's too late to cancel the MFW-15 (and returning it I'd have to pay shipping which is friggin' expensive) so I'm returning my Aperion 10D. Hopefully I'm happy with the 15!

Thanks again for all the helpful comments and ideas! Was all very greatly appreciated. I love the people on these forums. :)

What finish?

What finish?
My 2c says cherry. Those are almost caught up.

What finish?

Cherry. I'm really hoping it matches my Aperions.

Here a some pics posted by another member of his cherry MFW15 with his Aperions.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2266/2389596457_c9acda6224.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/2389593579_6b59ed62d8.jpg?v=0

I think you will be happy with the match.

Here a some pics posted by another member of his cherry MFW15 with his Aperions.

I think you will be happy with the match.

Oh man, someone actually has them both? The top pic looks like it mismatches but that could just be the lighting since the bottom picture looks perfect! Thanks a lot!

Where did you find that? I tried searching the forums but couldn't find who those pics came from. The finish mismatching was one of the things I was worried about so if I could actually see what they might have said about it that would be awesome.

That came from the AV123 subwoofer thread. That is as close a match as you can hope for IMO. There are variations in color among each piece of wood used in making these subs, much less matching them perfectly with another company's speaker. You should be very pleased with it once you've got it in your home.

Thanks OUMoneyMan! I found the discussion about it in that thread and it definitely sounds like I'll be very happy. Not a "perfect" match but as you said that's pretty much impossible with different companies so I wasn't expecting it, just hoping for the best and it sounds like I'll get it. :D

Got my shipping widget set up with the MFW-15 now and looks like 4 days until it arrives! Awesome!!

I got the 633ts and 634c in cherry. I would love to see your pics when that mutha shows up.

I got the 633ts and 634c in cherry. I would love to see your pics when that mutha shows up.

Man, I wish I could have afforded the 6 series! I mentioned in the first post all I have right now are two 5Bs. Next months paycheck will get me the 5C and then hopefully two months from then I'll order my 5Ts to finish up my system :D

I'll definitely post some pics on Wednesday or Thursday after it's all hooked up.

nice, thanks man. I must say that the bass in the 633Ts is pretty amazing, even without a sub!

Well it arrived a day early and man is this thing huge!! I knew the dimensions and had seen pictures but the reality just blows it away. I'll get it setup tonight and post some pictures soon but one awesome thing I already see is that it really is pretty much a perfect match to my cherry Aperions. :D

Good to hear. I have the Cherries too and am looking forward to your pics. Do you stip have the aperion Sub? to do a side by side??? Probably not, but it would be worth hearing how MUCH better one is over the other:)

Glad to hear you're happy with the appearance. The quality of veneer on AV123 speakers is unmatched for the price. Now, the more important question is how does it sound?

Having some issues with my MFW-15 making a clicking/popping noise at high volumes. :( ... you can follow along in the Official AV123 Subwoofer thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990250&page=31).

did you fix your issues? Seems like the other thread had some good ideas. Dying for some pics and a review and compare against the aperion

You are killing me without some good pics. I am starting to get cold. Please help me, the life is leaving me. Must have some pics to survive. starting to get dark.

"ELF IS ABOUT TO DIE!"

Plea.... hlp..... meee..... aaauuuuuaaaahhhhh........

"ELF NEEDS PICS..... BADLY"

Well because of my issues I haven't gotten it completely set up yet (have to keep pulling it out to check stuff so I've just left it pulled out and re-calibrated). However just for you I took some quick pics of my Aperion 5B sitting on top of my new MFW-15 with my iPhone :)

http://danvpeterson.com/skitch//iPhoto-20080418-015517.pnghttp://danvpeterson.com/skitch//iPhoto-20080418-015334.pnghttp://danvpeterson.com/skitch//iPhoto-20080418-015624.png

Sorry, the iPhone doesn't take good indoor pics at night.

thanks for the pics... They look good together. Is the Sub a shade or two darker then the 5Bs? So, you are still having issues. I was hoping they would be solved by now. I guess you too, 'eh? Sorry to hear that. I hope is all works out. Please keep us informed to the solution.

On another note, what rx are you using? sorry if I have asked you before. I think I have asked 10 million people in the past week. You can probably figure out what my next two and hopefully final two purchases are:)
Good luck

Andy

The MFW is a shade darker if you really pay attention but it's not really noticeable.

Yeah, I'm still having issues. I called AV123 back today but got the voicemail for the guy I've been dealing with. Hopefully he'll call me back soon. I rarely push the volume that high so it's not a huge deal but still, after paying $800 (including shipping) for a sub it needs to be perfect for me.

RX? Receiver? I'm running on an Onkyo 705. Did a ton of research a couple months back and it seemed like my best option. I probably would have been fine with the 605 but wanted the 3 hdmi inputs and wanted to give Audessey a try. No complaints, it's been running beautifully, looks good, and has plenty of power and features.

I guess all of the cherry will probably fad to a similar color over time...

So what is the verdict. Is it fixed or solved? How does it sound? Are you happy you returned the 10D? How do they compare with each other?

I am almost ready to pull the trigger on the AV123 but I want to hear what you think.

Thanks in advance

Andy

Any word on how the AV123 compared to the 12D? Did you get it fixed yet? I would love to hear what you think.