Hi All,

I am looking for a subwoofer recommendation for my living room which is my primary HT area. The total size of the living room and kitchen combined is 5760 ft^3 (32'W x 20'D X 9'H). The Living room itself is 17'x20'x9 which is 3060 ft^3 of that, but it is wide open to the kitchen.

I have a diagram of the entire area below. The TV is green, the speakers are blue, the couches are brown.

I have marked the intended subwoofer location in red. Currently I have an Epik Caliber on order and the sizing of the sub in the diagram is about right relative to the size of the main couch - pretty big so I don't really have other placement options unless I rearrange the side couches.

My main concern is whether the Epik Caliber ($828 shipped) is going to be "enough" or if I need to consider other subwoofers. Considering that I originally set out hoping to find a sub in the $300 range, I am already far over what I would like to spend. That said, if a couple hundred $ more would make the difference between happiness and disappointment I'd consider it - it is always cheaper to buy the right thing the first time. Speaking to Chad at Epik Subwoofer, he believed the Caliber would be enough but thought I would have to keep the gain pretty high and I then would have concerns about amp longevity and distortion.

I currently do not have a subwoofer at all and direct the LFE through the front mains.

Regarding listening habits, it will be about 90% HT/TV, 5% Music, 5% Video Games. I am not a total bass junkie but I would love to hear movies like WOTW sound very impressive. Im not looking to shake the whole house but it would be nice to feel ~20Hz hit me in the chest. FWIW "normal" listening volume for me is -25 to -30dB on my Yamaha HTR-5740. I consider -15dB very loud and that's about as loud as I'd ever take it. Ideally, for action scenes I'd like to be able to have the receiver at -20dB and run the sub about 6dB or so louder because I am mainly just wanting to add extra bass to my setup.

I've considered the following so far based on the Craigsub rankings: In my estimation the Epik Knight and Caliber are both around or above the ranking of the eD A5-350 and AV123 MFW-15 (which I both also seriously considered).
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/funsocaltiger/Homestead-L1-LivingRoom.jpg

My current setup is:
Panasonic 50" PZ77u
Yamaha HTR-5740 (6x100w)
Cerwin Vega V-5c Center
Cerwin Vega E-312 Mains (3-way 12" floorstander)
MTX Monitor-12 Rears (3-way 12" floorstander)
No dedicated subwoofer

Thanks!

Laurence

Hi All,

I am looking for a subwoofer recommendation for my living room which is my primary HT area. The total size of the living room and kitchen combined is 5760 ft^3 (32'W x 20'D X 9'H). The Living room itself is 17'x20'x9 which is 3060 ft^3 of that, but it is wide open to the kitchen.

I have a diagram of the entire area below. The TV is green, the speakers are blue, the couches are brown.

I have marked the intended subwoofer location in red. Currently I have an Epik Caliber on order and the sizing of the sub in the diagram is about right relative to the size of the main couch - pretty big so I don't really have other placement options unless I rearrange the side couches.

My main concern is whether the Epik Caliber ($828 shipped) is going to be "enough" or if I need to consider other subwoofers. Considering that I originally set out hoping to find a sub in the $300 range, I am already far over what I would like to spend. That said, if a couple hundred $ more would make the difference between happiness and disappointment I'd consider it. Speaking to Chad at Epik Subwoofer, he believed the Caliber would be enough but thought I would have to keep the gain pretty high and I then would have concerns about amp longevity and distortion.

I currently do not have a subwoofer at all and direct the LFE through the front mains.

Regarding listening habits, it will be about 90% HT/TV, 5% Music, 5% Video Games. I am not a total bass junkie but I would love to hear movies like WOTW sound very impressive. Im not looking to shake the whole house but it would be nice to feel ~20Hz hit me in the chest. FWIW "normal" listening volume for me is -25 to -30dB on my Yamaha HTR-5740. I consider -15dB very loud and that's about as loud as I'd ever take it. Ideally, for action scenes I'd like to be able to have the receiver at -20dB and run the sub about 6dB or so louder because I am mainly just wanting to add extra bass to my setup.

I've considered the following so far based on the Craigsub rankings: In my estimation the Epik Knight and Caliber are both around or above the ranking of the eD A5-350 and AV123 MFW-15 (which I both also seriously considered).
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/funsocaltiger/Homestead-L1-LivingRoom.jpg

My current setup is:
Panasonic 50" PZ77u
Yamaha HTR-5740 (6x100w)
Cerwin Vega V-5c Center
Cerwin Vega E-312 Mains (3-way 12" floorstander)
MTX Monitor-12 Rears (3-way 12" floorstander)
No dedicated subwoofer

Thanks!

Laurence

U should also consider the eD A7S -450 with 1300 watts for $860 SHIPPED
U probably will be very pleased by it
i would cancel the epik and get the eD
I have an eD A5-350 in a 21x21x9 room open to kitchen,dining and living room and it it shakes the whole house.

a7s should be roughly on caliber's level in terms of SPL ..
If I was deciding to spend "couple hundred $ more" I'd switch the order from Caliber to Castle, the Castle seems to be a great value as far as SPL/price ratio goes. Seemingly a great choice when trying to fill a large room and keeping the price in mind.

a7s should be roughly on caliber's level in terms of SPL ..
If I was deciding to spend "couple hundred $ more" I'd switch the order from Caliber to Castle, the Castle seems to be a great value as far as SPL/price ratio goes. Seemingly a great choice when trying to fill a large room and keeping the price in mind.

I have been somewhat considering the jump from Caliber up to Castle / Tower (Tower is only $100 more than Castle so Id probably do that if I do upgrade) but that is another $300-400 and I am really on the fence regarding whether or not I need to hit the $1000+ mark shipped for a sub. If the Caliber is all I "need" I'd rather save the money - it's already a lot more than I've spent on any single audio component yet. OTOH it's still less than the TV cost.

If the A7S with the 1300W amp has roughly the same performance as the Caliber I think I would prefer the Caliber as I'd prefer a sub which accomplishes output via cabinet size vs. amplifier output.

Alright guys, I talked to Chad a bit more yesterday and his assessment based on the near field placement of the sub was that the Caliber would more than likely suit my needs. However, reading various other people's experiences and recommendations has me second guessing myself. Additionally, I just got confirmation of my annual bonus today so I've decided to just upgrade to the Castle or Tower and stop obsessing over this issue (it's totally eating me up) and move on with my life. You can always turn down the volume on a sub and I really don't want to have to deal with either buying a second sub or exchanging one.

So the question is: Castle or Tower?

Speaking to Chad, the larger enclosure EBS design of the Tower will have noticeably better <20Hz response and negligible impact on the >20Hz frequencies due to the use of a larger box... <1dB in his opinion and not even noticeable to him. But I did find the below graph (posted by craigsub) however indicating that the models showed the loss was closer to 2dB @ 30-40Hz.

I guess the question is, for 90% HT use, would the tradeoff to get ~4-6dB more <20Hz be worth the ~2dB loss from 30-40Hz? Chad's opinion is that it is worth it for HT but I would like additional feedback. Would I even be able to notice the difference either way? What are some examples of sounds for each frequency range?

Neither size nor the cost difference are an issue but the smaller Castle is marginally better in the form factor and WAF department.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/funsocaltiger/SDX152tunes.jpg
Image credit: craigsub

That picture is not of Castle vs Tower, it's just two random subs with same components but different box sizes and tuning frequencies that he measured. Even the picture itself shows that those are Creative Sounds SDX-15's, one with 5 cubic feet and tuning of 20, another with 6.5 cubic feet and tuning of 15. In case of Castle vs Tower, the box volume is also ~30% larger but the tuning only differs by 2 hz - Tower = 16 , Castle = 18. So tower will lose less in audible range, but algo gain less in the subsonics, compared to that graph.

That picture is not of Castle vs Tower, it's just two random subs with same components but different box sizes and tuning frequencies that he measured. Even the picture itself shows that those are Creative Sounds SDX-15's, one with 5 cubic feet and tuning of 20, another with 6.5 cubic feet and tuning of 15. In case of Castle vs Tower, the box volume is also ~30% larger but the tuning only differs by 2 hz - Tower = 16 , Castle = 18. So tower will lose less in audible range, but algo gain less in the subsonics, compared to that graph.

Just to clarify, I believe those graphs are models (not actual measurements) which I believe craigsub posted in order to demonstrate the approximate difference between the Knight/Caliber and Castle/Tower.

That said, if the tuning difference is only 2Hz (not a full 5Hz) then I agree with your assessment regarding the difference between the two models. It is looking like the differences are minor and probably not really audible. I think I am leaning towards the Castle at this point due to the form factor advantage.

My Axiom EP600 DSP sub does great in my almost 8,000 cu ft room.

Alright guys, I talked to Chad a bit more yesterday and his assessment based on the near field placement of the sub was that the Caliber would more than likely suit my needs. However, reading various other people's experiences and recommendations has me second guessing myself. Additionally, I just got confirmation of my annual bonus today so I've decided to just upgrade to the Castle or Tower and stop obsessing over this issue (it's totally eating me up) and move on with my life. You can always turn down the volume on a sub and I really don't want to have to deal with either buying a second sub or exchanging one.

So the question is: Castle or Tower?

Speaking to Chad, the larger enclosure EBS design of the Tower will have noticeably better <20Hz response and negligible impact on the >20Hz frequencies due to the use of a larger box... <1dB in his opinion and not even noticeable to him. But I did find the below graph (posted by craigsub) however indicating that the models showed the loss was closer to 2dB @ 30-40Hz.

I guess the question is, for 90% HT use, would the tradeoff to get ~4-6dB more <20Hz be worth the ~2dB loss from 30-40Hz? Chad's opinion is that it is worth it for HT but I would like additional feedback. Would I even be able to notice the difference either way? What are some examples of sounds for each frequency range?

Neither size nor the cost difference are an issue but the smaller Castle is marginally better in the form factor and WAF department.

Image credit: craigsub

Get the Tower and don't look back. Unless you are going to max out the sub all the time the extra extension would be a plus. My gut says the you will be blown away. They would not be building these monster boxes (Caliber and Tower are BIG) if they did not make for increase in performance. I also think there would be more of a "what if" factor with the Castle even if there is not much material out there where you could tell the difference between the two.

Get the Tower and don't look back. Unless you are going to max out the sub all the time the extra extension would be a plus. My gut says the you will be blown away. They would not be building these monster boxes (Caliber and Tower are BIG) if they did not make for increase in performance. I also think there would be more of a "what if" factor with the Castle even if there is not much material out there where you could tell the difference between the two.

That's a good point. I think I would probably be blown away by either though I probably would always wonder "what if" or "how much better" the Tower would have been with the deeper extension when watching things like WOTW. Afterall, the goal is that I can make a final decision and stop obsessing about subs in the first place.

My Axiom EP600 DSP sub does great in my almost 8,000 cu ft room.

I looked into this sub and it is a good $600 more than the Tower shipped which puts it into price range of the Conquest. This is beyond what I am willing to budget.

That said, looking at the specs, the Tower has about 40% more cabinet volume and a bigger 15" woofer vs the 12" Axiom. The Axiom has a 20% more powerful amplifier. Extrapolating from the craigsub ranking of a lesser Axiom and relative value to dollar ratios I believe that the Castle or Tower is probably more powerful or at the least more bang for the buck.

This does reassure me however that the Castle or Tower would be sufficient for my room volume.