AMC opens it first all digital multiplex, no DLPs.
Click here (http://torontoist.com/2008/03/do_the_resoluti.php#more) to see what $13 buys you.

AMC opens it first all digital multiplex, no DLPs.
Click here (http://torontoist.com/2008/03/do_the_resoluti.php#more) to see what $13 buys you.

From the article:

"So why would someone choose to go to AMC Yonge & Dundas instead of the Paramount? we asked DiOrio. He rhymed off the digital projection, the six-dollar morning movies, and the cheaper concessions. This last point is true. It is possible to purchase, in small quantities, popcorn, drinks, and candies for $3 each, or three for $7.50. It's not a lot of food at all, but for people for whom popcorn is part of the ritual, rather than simply an oily substitute for a real meal, it might be a dealbreaker."


We were in Toronto in 2000 and went to the Paramount. Really nice theater!!!@@@

:D

Well, the fact that the Sony was chosen says something. I wonder if they felt that the this left them aittle more future proof or what ? The reviewer seemed rather negative about the whole project in this article.

Art

The reviewer seemed rather negative about the whole project in this article.

Art

Wow! I'll say he was down right miserable I thought. Sounds and looks like a nice theater from the pic shown.

Cheers
Calvin

I heard that AMC had a huge credit with Sony over the SDDS disaster. They are getting these 4k projectors for free plus Sony is using marketing dollars to brand these sites almost like Sony stores with the Sony name plastered everywhere.

My only experience with the Sony 4K was at CEDIA. There, it was sharp but had horrendous uniformity issues and in motion the image seemed to have trouble catching up to itself.

Art

I heard that AMC had a huge credit with Sony over the SDDS disaster. They are getting these 4k projectors for free plus Sony is using marketing dollars to brand these sites almost like Sony stores with the Sony name plastered everywhere.

thats the way sony did at the moment to BUY the market but even with that it will be hard for sony to get build market share.

sad as i already post because ti will not go sonn to 4k and not spend
much money to research and development because they save this cost because there is no need.

Wolfgang,
Has it been your experience that the issues I saw regarding the Sony 4K unit have been solved ?

Art

Wolfgang,
Has it been your experience that the issues I saw regarding the Sony 4K unit have been solved ?

Art

art
yes i guess most of them.
they have now convergence shift.
i dont know about shading that is may still a issue.

the new 18000 lumen 220 is very very new so no one at the moment knows
how this pr. will perform in 6 months from now or in 3 years when use them 8 hours a day and cinemas
like a pr. that runns some years without any problem.

with all the bad experience from early 105 and 110 units it is no
surprise that cinema owners not take the risk when you have
a dlp system that have prove to be reliable.

the tread shoud be.

sony 4k BUY this one:)

'Very Very New';-). It was scheduled for availability late 2005, then finally shown at Showest late 2006, so very very new;-).

The DLP guys have also been in the habit of buying their way into theaters, and various key demoprojects (UK Film Council for instance) for a number of years, with loaners, demomachines, barters, crossmarketing and little margin seeding quantities. Compare the listprice for the HD8K 65K euro plus lens, plus VAT, that used to buy people a Christie D-Cinema projector at twice (or more?) the lumens.

I am looking forward to the first true 4k movie shown in 4k. Will there be a 4k movie in 2008? The writer of the article must be an ex film projectionist. :)

Will there be a 4k movie in 2008? :)

may one or two but question is where
japan ?
us ?
europe ? :)

W.Mayer
How do you feel about higher fps and digital cinema. In the DCI specs as they stand I think 24p and 48fp is allowed for.

With real 4k@48-60fps there will be a difference in 4k. The faster exposure times will allow for better use of the resolution potential.

i like to have more than 24 frame a secound.
48 should be nice but 60 should be the target.
till 48 all todays cinema dlps can do "cinema prozessing" over that they can do
just the normally prozessing.

there will be some new hd consumer video camera that will record
with 60 frames a secound.
may the first will be there by end 08.

good thing is that most 1920x1080 pr. can take and display such signal.

I am looking forward to the first true 4k movie shown in 4k. Will there be a 4k movie in 2008? The writer of the article must be an ex film projectionist. :)
The D-cinema spec is at 2K, but a lot of post work is being done at 4K now to be ready for HD presentation, and has been for several years on major productions, from what I've been told. No worries, though. Let's hope these hold up reasonably well under extended use.

Oh, yeah, the D-cinema spec is available online without too much of a hassle if anyone cares to read it.

http://www.dcimovies.com/specification/index.tt2

...like the author of the article Alan referenced. :D

Would a 4K PJ have and advantage in playback over a 2K projector with a 1080P24 source???

When PJs went from 720P to 1080P, the 480i DVD picture improved.

Yes? No?

Would a 4K PJ have and advantage in playback over a 2K projector with a 1080P24 source???

When PJs went from 720P to 1080P, the 480i DVD picture improved.

Yes? No?

Yes, all else being equal along with great scaling of HDto 4K. All assumptions that are yet to be answered.

Art

Would a 4K PJ have and advantage in playback over a 2K projector with a 1080P24 source???

When PJs went from 720P to 1080P, the 480i DVD picture improved.

Yes? No?

Yes. It improved for the sets with larger screens but probably not for 20" sets. Same will apply to 2K -> 4K transition. The smaller displays may not gain much. For this case, "smaller" could be large. I am not sure what would be the break point in inches.

There is a limit to the screen size of home theaters typically restricted by the real estate dimensions. Therefore, the gain from 2K to 4K could be marginal even for a large screen that would fit a typical suburban house.

it depends what we are talking about. a 4k that is of good quality vs a 2k that is a true DCI machine... i will take the 2 k thanks.

I'm going to assume that some of the 4K issues have been or are going to be ironed out,eg uniformity,panel alignment, poor ANSI etc.

Art

those are merely implementation/product issues. all will be resolved over time.

Point being made is that scaling was a huge difference in the NTSC realm. the advantages get less with higher sources. and most importantly, we are not even CLOSE to seeing what 2k can be. so in 10 years time or so, once we are getting all we can out of the sources, and projectors are able to really take advantage of it all, then the scaling may have also advanced to a point where we will consistently realize a big advantage.

Goood enough, though, is never good enough... particularly at this place.

I saw the Red camera demo at NAB last week which had 4k native from the Red One camera being projected by a Sony 4k projector onto a ~15' Stewart screen sitting about 12' away. It looked amazing. Overkill for home theater? Unless you've got a really big room, probably. Then they showed clips from Soderbergh's 'Guerilla' about Che Guevera where he used a Red, but was taking an 2.4:1 extract from the center of the sensor, not using the entire 4k. Still looked amazing.

I admit this was a best case scenario 'show off' situation, but the capability is there. The implimentation...???

4K is the next evolution for enthusiasts no doubt.

There is a limit to the advantage of increasing the resolution for home theaters as well as commercial theaters. Of course the numbers would be different since screen sizes are different. Interesting to find out these limits. Large corporations such as Sony must have done human factors research on this.

Well ,no doubt 4K allows closer seating but , after that SXRD has little over DLP and a few shortcomings in fact.

All things being equal,as I said, I'd take 4K. Has there been any talk of the scalers taking HD up to 4K ?

Art

I read somewhere the "Vantage" offered an output mode for 4k which caught my eye so I started reading on it and found it could not output 24 from 1080i until a few months ago. That lost all interest for me.

Yes, all else being equal along with great scaling of HDto 4K. All assumptions that are yet to be answered.

Art
And they will be, sooner than later ;)

James Cameron spoke enthusiastically about 48fps in 3D which he had experimented with. Then probably at 2k I guess.

Are Sony 4k projectors now capable of 48-60fps. I could live with that since I am skeptical of 3D presentations. I am not sure I want 3D for every movie.

Call me old fashioned but 4k@60fps would do me just fine. Over at the film-tech forum it is said Sony is persuing 8k and beyond so I guess enthusiast can make do with just 4k at home in the future. :)

James Cameron spoke enthusiastically about 48fps in 3D which he had experimented with. Then probably at 2k I guess.

Are Sony 4k projectors now capable of 48-60fps. I could live with that since I am skeptical of 3D presentations. I am not sure I want 3D for every movie.

Call me old fashioned but 4k@60fps would do me just fine. Over at the film-tech forum it is said Sony is persuing 8k and beyond so I guess enthusiast can make do with just 4k at home in the future. :)Yep - start saving your pennies now ;)

James Cameron spoke enthusiastically about 48fps in 3D which he had experimented with. Then probably at 2k I guess.

Are Sony 4k projectors now capable of 48-60fps. I could live with that since I am skeptical of 3D presentations. I am not sure I want 3D for every movie.

Call me old fashioned but 4k@60fps would do me just fine. Over at the film-tech forum it is said Sony is persuing 8k and beyond so I guess enthusiast can make do with just 4k at home in the future. :)


A (US) Sony VP told the IBC 2006 conference Sony had 8K LCoS chips in the lab, that's all he mentioned on this issue.

The industry will not be able to support more than 48fps initially.
I can see lcos handling a possible extension to 96fps, 3D at 48fps.
144fps that dlp does today is hard to match for lcos. However 96fps should work pretty well!
The real problem for lcos with 3D is light output and that is probably tougher to solve especially for the large cinema screens.

JVC just announced its 8K (a bit more) chip.

Here's a report quoting a JVC release: http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news-15943-JVC+Announces+the+World%27s+First+Single+Display+Device+Achi eving+Super+Hi-Vision%21.html

And here's the release through Japan Corp Newswire: http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=17999

JVC Develops 1.75-inch 8K4K D-ILA Device; World's Highest 35 Megapixel Pixel Count, More than 17x Full High-Definition


Tokyo, Japan, May 2, 2008 - (JCN Newswire) - Victor Company of Japan, Ltd. (JVC) announces a new addition to its lineup of proprietary D-ILA (Direct-Drive Image Light Amplifier) high-definition reflective liquid crystal devices for projectors. The newly developed 1.75-inch 8K4K D-ILA device has the world's largest number of pixels[1] and is able to display images of approximately 35 megapixels (8192 x 4320 pixels), the equivalent of more than 17 times the level of Full High-Definition. This means that a single display device can now produce Super Hi-Vision[2] images and can display images with the highest number of pixels currently defined under international standards.

After JVC developed the initial 7.86-megapixel (3840 x 2048 pixels) 4K2K D-ILA device in the summer of 2003, it subsequently further evolved the technology for highly realistic, high-definition images through a range of test viewings and verification testing, resulting in the development of JVC's first commercial 4K2K D-ILA device (1.7-inch device size, 5,000:1 device contrast ratio) and the 4K2K D-ILA projector incorporating that device in September 2004.

In June 2007 JVC developed a 1.27-inch 4K2K D-ILA device that was the world's smallest device of its kind, having a 6.8 micrometer pixel pitch and 4096 x 2400 pixels, and in February 2008 it began marketing a newly commercialized professional D-ILA projector, DLA-SH4K, incorporating that device.

Through the development of a new production process and new pixel structure for even finer pixels, JVC has now succeeded in developing the 1.75-inch 8K4K D-ILA device, the world's first device to achieve real Super Hi-Vision definition level. The new device has approximately 50% higher density in its ratio of area per pixel as compared to the 1.27-inch 4K2K D-ILA device, which was originally the world's smallest 4K device. Furthermore, the new device has achieved a video display of approximately 35 megapixels, the world's highest pixel counts[1], while continuing to provide the D-ILA series' characteristics such as "high-quality images without a distracting pixel structure", "high light availability", and "high contrast ratio".

What are D-ILA Reflective Liquid Crystal Devices?

D-ILA is the name given to JVC's proprietary high-performance reflective liquid crystal devices for projectors. These are typical LCOS (Liquid Crystal on Silicon) devices that provide both high brightness and high definition.

JVC successfully developed the 1.3-megapixel SXGA type device in October 1997 and launched the D-ILA projector the same year. Since that time, the company has accumulated many years of production experience with devices for high-end projectors and continually released new products: in May 2004, the company launched the world's first domestic Full HD front-projection system and then launched rear-projection systems into the US market in the July the same year.

The D-ILA Full High-Definition home theater projector DLA-HD1 launched in January 2007 utilized a newly developed 0.7-inch Full High-Definition D-ILA device and a new optical engine to achieve 15,000:1 native contrast ratio and "true black" expression without using an iris mechanism. Furthermore, the successor model DLA-HD100 introduced in December 2007 achieved the industry's highest[3] 30,000:1 native contrast ratio. Both models were well reviewed and proved great hit products in the global market.

The professional D-ILA projector, DLA-SH4K, which went on sale in 2008, achieves both 10,000:1 high contrast ratio and about 10-megapixel resolution more than four times the Full High-Definition level. This overwhelming image quality has received high praise, particularly in the presentation field.

For complete information, please visit http://www.jvc.co.jp/english/global-e.html

[1] As a projection-type display device, as of May 2, 2008.
[2] Super Hi-Vision is a TV broadcasting service currently under development at NHK; a single image has approximately 33 megapixels (7680 x 4320 pixels), with 60 frame/second sequential scanning and 22.2 multichannel sound. Image format is international standard ITU-R BT.1769, SMPTE 2036. Diagonal size is 1.67 inches at Super Hi-Vision standard pixel dimensions of 7680 x 4320.
[3] For a home theater projector, as of May 2, 2008, based on JVC survey.



About JVC

Victor Company of Japan, Ltd. (TSE: 6792; US: VJAPY), known worldwide as JVC, is well-known for its development of the VHS video standard, and has developed as an international company in the fields of audio, visual (A&V), information-related equipment, components, and entertainment for the domestic consumer market, as well as in the business market as a comprehensive provider of both hardware and software. JVC has received high praise in both domestic consumer and business markets. Visit the JVC home page at www.jvc.co.jp .

Contact:

Toshiya Ogata, Senior Staff Manager, or
David Gifford, Manager
Public Relations Group
Corporate Communications Department
Victor Company of Japan, Limited (JVC)
Tel: +81-(0)45-450-2951, 2952
Fax: +81-(0)45-450-2959
E-mail: ogata-toshiya@jvc-victor.jp
dgifford@jvc-victor.jp
URL: http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english

I heard a new lens needed to be designed to handle 4k. I can imagine the cost of the lens needed for 8k. I can see this getting very expensive. I love it though..the sooner they get 8k we will get the "hand me down" 4k:)

I heard a new lens needed to be designed to handle 4k. I can imagine the cost of the lens needed for 8k. I can see this getting very expensive. I love it though..the sooner they get 8k we will get the "hand me down" 4k:)
Wow, my brain is spinning. :p
No doubt, if 4k is to hit the home market next year (skipping 2K altogether), Hollywood will demand 8K for theatrical release. BTW, 8K would easily match the resolution of 35mm, right?

BTW, 8K would easily match the resolution of 35mm, right?

You don't need to project 8K to match the resolution of the 35mm release prints you see in the vast majority of theaters. You don't even need to project in 4K for that. Would you believe you don't even need 2K (leaving out the visibility of pixels, which is a different issue)? See www.fixetdefix.fr/IMG/pdf/35mm_resolution_english.pdf and www.etconsult.com/papers/Technical%20Issues%20in%20Cinema%20Resolution.pdf. Of course, film diehards who like to denigrate dcinema as "mere" video or TV (thus simply carrying on a tradition originating from Hollywood in the 50's) dismiss studies like this one.

Matching 35mm shouldn't be the goal. Matching or exceeding 70mm would be a better goal. A well done 4K system should _blow_ 35mm out of the water. An 8K system should blow 70mm out of the water.

Matching 35mm shouldn't be the goal. Matching or exceeding 70mm would be a better goal. A well done 4K system should _blow_ 35mm out of the water. An 8K system should blow 70mm out of the water. OK, I'll skip the 4K and go directly to 8K :p
BTW, the great 70mm spectacles of the '50s deserve to be cherished. That was a golden age of cinema!

Hans Kiening's 11-page article, "4k+ Systems: Theory Basics for Motion Picture Imaging," in the SMPTE's April 08 "Motion Imaging Journal," covers some of the interesting material discussed above. He heads Arri's 4k+ project. (SMPTE.org sells single issues, or journal subscriptions separate from its membership inclusion.)

The article details differences between resolution and sharpness, with this summary: Sharpness does not depend only on resolution. The modulation of the lower spatial frequencies is essential. In other words, contrast in coarse details is significantly more important for the impression of sharpness than contrast at the resolution limit.
As an illustration, his Fig. 6 shows two small images of an Arri camera. One with coarse details in higher contrast does look 'sharper', while the other, which seems dull looking, has an inset enlarged knob detail with markings not visible by enlarging the lower-resolution but 'sharper' image.

His Figs 23-24 compares 2k vs 4k film scans as MTFs (modulation transfer functions), showing how the contrast at 20 line pairs/mm with 2k scanning jumps from 42% to 70% with 4k scanning. He shows, because of MTF cascading, why 4k scans of 35mm can't deliver 4k resolution, but why this boost in coarse frequencies/resolutions makes images seem sharp. 6k scanning is needed to provide 4k resolution on screen.

His Fig. 29 diagram for a 830-seat, 25-meter-screen theater shows how most viewers could resolve 4k, and some in the front four rows could resolve 8k. -- John

John,
Could you link to this paper ?

Art

6k scanning is needed to provide 4k resolution on screen.



What scanning resolution/source are they using for 1080P 24 material. I have aways felt our best ( consumer ) source does not taxi a 1080p projectors resolving capability, so 4k is needed to show the potential of a 1080p projector ? just as 6k would be needed for a 4k display. From the right distance to avoid visible pixel structure this is why some will argue they could not see more detail with BD displayed via a 720P projector verses a 1080p projector.

Good find John.

John,
Could you link to this paper ?

ArtI'll send you the paper, but I need to send via email, since it's large file 5MB

What scanning resolution/source are they using for 1080P 24 material. I have aways felt our best ( consumer ) source does not taxi a 1080p projectors resolving capability, so 4k is needed to show the potential of a 1080p projector ? just as 6k would be needed for a 4k display. From the right distance to avoid visible pixel structure this is why some will argue they could not see more detail with BD displayed via a 720P projector verses a 1080p projector.

Good find John.1080P materials are usually down-sampled from the 2K master, or may be getting rid of just the columns of pixel, unless you directly film it from 1080P camera (prosumer stuff). Sometime down-sampling it increases the noise floor, since it uses 'low pass' filter processing.

What is even better these days, they directly convert from the 4K DPX file to 1080P for BluRay release. You can do all these functions these days with system like Quantel's Pablo.

I'll send you the paper, but I need to send via email, since it's large file 5MB

Thanks ,got it !

Art

Check this out Art,
http://gizmodo.com/386457/jvc-makes-first-super-hi+vision-display-16-times-full-hd-resolution

All I can say is, one pixel per day.....

What is the point of having so much pixels if the screen do not have the width. MTF, ANSI and FF CR are much more important.

Check this out Art,
http://gizmodo.com/386457/jvc-makes-first-super-hi+vision-display-16-times-full-hd-resolution

All I can say is, one pixel per day.....

What is the point of having so much pixels if the screen do not have the width. MTF, ANSI and FF CR are much more important.

I agree ,at least for home say screens fron 10 ' to 16' size, your listed parameters should be higher on the totum pole.

Art

I heard a new lens needed to be designed to handle 4k. I can imagine the cost of the lens needed for 8k. I can see this getting very expensive. I love it though..the sooner they get 8k we will get the "hand me down" 4k:)Do you have 50' screen to even see 8K

Actually I dont think any of us here care about 8k let alone 4k. Lets take care of business & maximize 1080p, theres plenty of room for improvement.

Actually I dont think any of us here care about 8k let alone 4k. Lets take care of business & maximize 1080p, theres plenty of room for improvement.

Yes and give us much better blacks and much higher contrast. :)

Actually I dont think any of us here care about 8k let alone 4k. Lets take care of business & maximize 1080p, theres plenty of room for improvement.

You are so wise, Master Yoda.:D

Couldn't agree more.

John,
Could you link to this paper ?

Sorry, it's online only with SMPTE membership at SMPTE.org. Often articles in current journal issues are published 1 year earlier in tech meeting papers and are available elsewhere; not this one AFAIK. Arri might put his paper on their site at some time. Looks like you received a copy via e-mail.


What scanning resolution/source are they using for 1080P 24 material. I have aways felt our best ( consumer ) source does not taxi a 1080p projectors resolving capability, so 4k is needed to show the potential of a 1080p projector ? just as 6k would be needed for a 4k display. From the right distance to avoid visible pixel structure this is why some will argue they could not see more detail with BD displayed via a 720P projector verses a 1080p projector.
Can't recall the paper getting into 1080p much, it mostly deals with 4k+ scanning, including one at 10k. AIUI, though, a downconverted 4k scan is supposedly needed to achieve 1080p's full potential. I've noted your dissatisfaction with what's being delivered on HD discs--even though some, such as King Kong, were produced from 4k production digital intermediates (DIs). My assumption is that the 4k DIs actually carried effective resolutions of perhaps only ~1100 lines maximum horizontal resolution/picture width (as outlined earlier here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9314235&&#post9314235) based on sspears' spectrum analysis of 1080/24p ~270 Mbps master tapes and Joe Kane's published related comments.

Actually, doubt if sspears' masters (some years back) were originally 4k-scan sourced. So his summary of 800--1300 lines effective resolution, with 1300 only for CGI images AIUI, might not apply to 4k-scan-sourced HD discs. This comment is from the link above by WSR's Gary Reber:
The horizontal resolution of most film transfers rarely gets above 800 lines. The test film material from Digital Video Essentials was the first time the SMPTE HD (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers)
group had seen material as high as 1100 lines.
Seems a bit 'nebulous' but guess someone could compare DVE test-disc scenes and guesstimate whether the images on, say, King Kong, are at ~1920 maximum compared to the DVE's ~1100 lines maximum effective horizontal resolution (per picture width). (This all refers, of course, to actual images from films, subject to sampling and Nyquist limitations, not non-sampled test pattern images such as bursts or resolution wedges.) Maybe one of these days someone will update sspears' informal study with newer spectrum analysis tests. -- John

Actually I dont think any of us here care about 8k let alone 4k. Lets take care of business & maximize 1080p, theres plenty of room for improvement.

It's the only way to get a large image for the short viewing distance typically found in North-Western European homes.

for the first gen HD cameras, there were resolution issues in that the lenses were not able to optimize to the format. once those came online... suddenly HD quality jumped.

We are so far from optimization of the current HD formats (both in content and displays systems) that it is funny to see these talks about 4k.

4K is for mastering. that is it.

for the first gen HD cameras, there were resolution issues in that the lenses were not able to optimize to the format. once those came online... suddenly HD quality jumped.

We are so far from optimization of the current HD formats (both in content and displays systems) that it is funny to see these talks about 4k.

4K is for mastering. that is it.

Maybe, but we are going to see 4K soon. It looms for both commercial as well as HT.

Art

Surely 4k is coming but what will be the delivery media? Those are going to be some big files. Of course 4 TB hard drives are about 6 months out, however I highly doubt hard drives will be the method used.

Surely 4k is coming but what will be the delivery media? Those are going to be some big files. Of course 4 TB hard drives are about 6 months out, however I highly doubt hard drives will be the method used.

Don,

If I'm not mistaken, this is the delivery method now for DCI. What is the bitrate for uncompressed 4K?

Cliff

other than the occaisonal speacialty thing art... not for a long time. $ K is what they master in. and once in a while, sony or JVC gets a 4 k transfer to show off their new proj.

Red Ray, an upcoming 4k optical disc player (standard red lasers) from the makers of the 4k Red One digital-cinema camera, hasn't--so far--received much speculation about potential consumer use. It's for production and some suggest it could also deliver 4k movies in digital-cinema theaters. If it further compresses already compressed Red-format recordings, 4k PQ might be reduced. But the link to more Red Ray discussion and speculation is below in a copy of another post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13807454&postcount=40) on Red One production:

Prefer the optimistic side here. Read a post by a producer at reduser.net today. He's been recording 4k/3k nature shows with his 4k-sensor (3.2k-effective-rez) RED One (http://www.red.com/cameras/tech_specs) cameras for over a year. This ~$17.5k camera (sans lens), as we all know, is aimed at independent producers. Numbers of indie Red-One movies are growing (see a reduser.net thread), as well as at least one major Hollywood feature (also see user site).

And of course any existing film can be scanned at 4k, and digital-intermediate 4k scans, for production purposes, exist for some feature films; search imdb.com technical section for 4k . A 5k EPIC camera (http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=37) and Red One 35mm-size sensor upgrades should deliver full ~4k effective resolution or higher. The upcoming RED Ray (http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=38) optical disc players, based on standard red lasers, is meant for production purposes AIUI. But it might serve for theater projection, too, some speculate.

No need to list them all, but as mentioned initially above, professional 4k-capable displays have been available for years if you have the $$$. High-end consumer versions seem quite feasible. As for the "look" of 4k versus current HDTV, the "wow" reactions of professionals viewing Red One productions at the recent NAB show or earlier (see reduser.net, etc.) suggests the resolution boost is visually dramatic. Assuming an earlier spectrum analysis review (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9314235&&#post9314235) of telecined films on ~270-Mbps 1080/24p master tapes is accurate, indicating typical 800--1100 line maximum effective horizontal resolution, a jump to ~3.2k maximum, it seems, should be dramatic in any viewing environment. -- John

I met with JVC Pro. Their 4K will be available this year. The first one is being installed in NY I believe was the comment. The price is not official but it is expected to cost over $100K.

Surely 4k is coming but what will be the delivery media? Those are going to be some big files. Of course 4 TB hard drives are about 6 months out, however I highly doubt hard drives will be the method used.


4K projection is coming soon with scaling from HD to 4K. I doubt we will see 4K source for the home for a lot longer.

Art

4K projection is coming soon with scaling from HD to 4K. I doubt we will see 4K source for the home for a lot longer.

Art


yes very likely from sony we will see soon there first demos units at cedia
or infocomm this year with we may can purchase late this year or
beginning next year this pr.

as it will push ti a bit to bring also 4k thats anyway good for us all.

i guess that at the same timeframe we will see high cr. high lumen
xenon 2k dlps.

the hunt for the best picture will be never over ontill we have
a holo deck:)

Which camera today gives the best 1080p60 resolution. We must remember that the p60 paramter is important with moving pictures.
I hope JVC can deliver plenty of lumen at that price considering Sony has a sub 100k price for their 4k display SYSTEM but the lens is excluded.

yes very likely from sony we will see soon there first demos units at cedia
or infocomm this year with we may can purchase late this year or
beginning next year this pr.

as it will push ti a bit to bring also 4k thats anyway good for us all.

i guess that at the same timeframe we will see high cr. high lumen
xenon 2k dlps.



I sure hope you are right regarding this pushing TI. High lumen high CR DLP should look better but of course the rumor is that the 4Ks will be hitting between 50,000 and 100,000:1 FF CR.

Art

I met with JVC Pro. Their 4K will be available this year. The first one is being installed in NY I believe was the comment. The price is not official but it is expected to cost over $100K.


The Barco version should be available by now, it was introduced in January. price under 100K euro.

Sony initially said the 10K/5K would have a projectprice of 100K, not sure what they are actually going for these days.

As for uncompressed 4K bitrates (well 4:2:2 compression aside), it is 12 gigabit, if one would use HD-SDI and its associated overhead (700-800 Mbit on a 3 gig channel). That's why the IBC fiberdemo was compressed using interlacing, as they were using an STM circuit (10 Gig). The Vutrix version of the 56" CMO lcd panel comes with a 10 gig ethernet input, so you may be able to get 4:2:2 4K in just under 10 gig, with some tricks to reduce overhead.

Which camera today gives the best 1080p60 resolution. We must remember that the p60 paramter is important with moving pictures.
I hope JVC can deliver plenty of lumen at that price considering Sony has a sub 100k price for their 4k display SYSTEM but the lens is excluded.

Sony 1500 series? Thomson?

the hunt for the best picture will be never over ontill we have
a holo deck:)

Come on Wolfgang, at that point you would want a proper molecular materializer, no longer settling for a proxy, called 'image'.

Art S.
We know that it is Sony and JVC that makes and can make 4k projectors. Now you mention a rumor of a very high ff cc from a 4k projector. With respect to JVC it makes some sense but JVC claim "only" 10000:1 for their 4k unit. Sony only manages about 2000:1. That 50000-100000:1 stands out. Are you saying that a new technology is about to enter the market or has Sony had a breakthrough development?

donaldk
Sony says 95k$ for the srx-r220 system without the lens. This includes all media handling, software and a UPS. Thus the media server is included!

Art,
Would you buy a 4k LCoS projector or a 2k 3-DLP assuming they had the same lumens and CR but the tecnologies look equivalent to what you have experienced so far.
Also, assume that video processing is done externally.

Come on Wolfgang, at that point you would want a proper molecular materializer, no longer settling for a proxy, called 'image'.

:)

Art S.
We know that it is Sony and JVC that makes and can make 4k projectors. Now you mention a rumor of a very high ff cc from a 4k projector. With respect to JVC it makes some sense but JVC claim "only" 10000:1 for their 4k unit. Sony only manages about 2000:1. That 50000-100000:1 stands out. Are you saying that a new technology is about to enter the market or has Sony had a breakthrough development?

donaldk
Sony says 95k$ for the srx-r220 system without the lens. This includes all media handling, software and a UPS. Thus the media server is included!

I'm hearing some new chips and new implementation and literally that's all I know.

Who the hell knows but this will be the most exciting CEDIA in four years IMO.

Art

Art,
Would you buy a 4k LCoS projector or a 2k 3-DLP assuming they had the same lumens and CR but the tecnologies look equivalent to what you have experienced so far.
Also, assume that video processing is done externally.

Only seeing them would be enough. After minor things that may be omitted making such an impact I think that looking at things is just so crucial to weigh the balance of flaws.

ANSI and MTF are big deals in the way an image pops or looks 3D in bright material IMO. But hard to argue with enormous resolution increases that can be used for anything you want including built in anamorphic capability not to mention on/off approaching 9" LC CRT.

Art

Red Ray, an upcoming 4k optical disc player (standard red lasers) from the makers of the 4k Red One digital-cinema camera, hasn't--so far--received much speculation about potential consumer use. It's for production and some suggest it could also deliver 4k movies in digital-cinema theaters. If it further compresses already compressed Red-format recordings, 4k PQ might be reduced. But the link to more Red Ray discussion and speculation is below in a copy of another post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13807454&postcount=40)on Red One production:

Hmm most have missed that one. We had a few people from Pixel Corps go to NAB again this year. Alex Lindsay our founder is in love with the RED line. Do to all my travel I've not been able to make it to any of the events, just goes to show how far you can fall behind.

If things come to light at CEDIA I agree with Art this could be a very interesting year. Hopefully I can make it to the big show ;)

4K projection is coming soon with scaling from HD to 4K.As has been discussed here a little bit, having 4x the resolution in the projector as the source makes a lot of sense. Like 960p with CRTs for 480p sources (or even somewhat like 720p displays for 480p sources, although without the perfect 4:1 ratio). The source is really points in space, so 4 pixels for each point in space should be a good thing. Also, I like the idea of 4k for doing convergence adjustments across the whole screen and still basically having 2k resolution outside any adjustments that use 2 lines.

While I would of course like to see improvements other than resolution, I wouldn't turn down 4k vs 2k if other issues were as good (or better), unless it was just because I didn't want to spend the extra money for the 4k resolution.

--Darin

As has been discussed here a little bit, having 4x the resolution in the projector as the source makes a lot of sense. Like 960p with CRTs for 480p sources (or even somewhat like 720p displays for 480p sources, although without the perfect 4:1 ratio). The source is really points in space, so 4 pixels for each point in space should be a good thing. Also, I like the idea of 4k for doing convergence adjustments across the whole screen and still basically having 2k resolution outside any adjustments that use 2 lines.

While I would of course like to see improvements other than resolution, I wouldn't turn down 4k vs 2k if other issues were as good (or better), unless it was just because I didn't want to spend the extra money for the 4k resolution.

--Darin

Yes,all other things being equal. But of course, they won't be. It's the nagging other smaller differences. All I've seen so far is the Sony 4K two years ago and the image looked very very flat with horrendous uniformity issues, and very poor panel alignment.

I'm assuming these will be solved.

Art

As has been discussed here a little bit, having 4x the resolution in the projector as the source makes a lot of sense.

no i can not agree.
i had 2 years ago a sony qualia and a sony 4k feed side by side
in my home with the 7m screen.
i had the 4k sony for more than one week and i had hope that this was the case but
i cant see any "big improvment" in the picture when i feed 2k and upscale it to 4k.

but as i will get soon a demo from the new barco 4k (jvc clone) i will test it again.
but it now barco cinema dlp dp 2000 vs lcos 4k pr. and not the qualia anymore.

As has been discussed here a little bit, having 4x the resolution in the projector as the source makes a lot of sense.

no i can not agree.
i had 2 years ago a sony qualia and a sony 4k feed side by side
in my home with the 7m screen.
i had the 4k sony for more than one week and i had hope that this was the case but
i cant see any "big improvment" in the picture when i feed 2k and upscale it to 4k.How was your convergence? There are lots of things that can hurt images even if one area is improved. Also, lots of things discussed on this forum aren't big improvements, but small improvements. At a close enough viewing distance with detailed source (a source can be encoded at 1080p and still not really have a lot of detail in it) I would expect to see some improvement going from 2k to 4k, if other things are held equal. If ANSI CR goes down, then that alone could hurt the perception of resolution though.

I don't recall any measurements, but my memory is that the 4k Sony I saw at CEDIA years ago had bad CR in the images.

--Darin

I sincerely doubt you'll find high power xenon bulbs in these 4K projectors using LCOS DILA technology ,like you see with Barco and Christie. There isn't an exhaust port that I could see for A/C ventilation and cooling.

I requested the RS-"yet to be released" PR to have higher lumen output with the high sequential contrast. We'll see what they ultimately decide on. I think the market that JVC Pro is in won't go with "May cause death" disclaimers on their products by improper handling of xenon bulbs.

Does anyone have info on the bulb used in the current 4K JVC? I forgot to ask during my meeting.

Just as I suspected, it's only a 800W Xenon bulb in the 4K PR.

The consumer 4K units aren't going to be optimal for a 23' wide screen like Wolkgang has. I'm not sure they will be optimal for a 14' wide screen like mine based on how fast xenon drops in light output. I'm all for changing lamps more frequently ,say every six months based on the projector cost ,if the lamps aren't 3 grand apiece

Art

I am for not putting in the lamps at all. ;)

We seem to lack recent first hand impressions of where 4k digital cinema projectors from Sony are today. What are the pros and cons now?

“Reach for Me,” the first feature-length motion picture to be shot and produced entirely in 4K, will be screened tonight on Sony’s 4K Digital Cinema Projection System. Directed by LeVar Burton and produced by AMediaVision Productions, the movie was captured using DALSA’s Origin 4K cinematography camera, with 4K image processing and digital intermediate (DI) managed by Post Logic.
Lead paragraph from this May 5th press release (http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/PR.aspx?newsID=1108). Sorry if mentioned elsewhere; a forum search here for "reach" didn't hit anything AFAIK. -- John

John,
Could you link to this paper ?

Here's a link to what's apparently a pdf equivalent of the SMPTE paper (Arri draft copy) I mentioned above (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13893558&postcount=38):
http://efilm.com/publish/2008/05/19/4K%20plus.pdf
Someone in the HD software media forum uncovered it (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037588) recently. -- John

Here's a link to what's apparently a pdf equivalent of the SMPTE paper (Arri draft copy) I mentioned above (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13893558&postcount=38):
http://efilm.com/publish/2008/05/19/4K%20plus.pdf
Someone in the HD software media forum uncovered it (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037588) recently. -- John

John

Good stuff. I missed it first time around. Thanks for resurrecting.

It sounds as if the list pricing between the Sony and Barco (JVC) 4Ks are in the same ballpark. Is the reported price of the Barco including lens....I assume not?

It sounds as if the list pricing between the Sony and Barco (JVC) 4Ks are in the same ballpark. Is the reported price of the Barco including lens....I assume not?

What was that price ?

Art

80-90K Euro plus tax for the Barco, and 95K USD plus tax for the 18K Sony. These are the figures that have been mentioned here on AVS, recently, and pavr seems to be referring to.

I believe Ohlson came up with the Sony figure, Wolfgang with the Barco one.

The 95k MSRP was for a complete R220 system which includes a server but the price does not include the lens. This is from memory so I could have things mixed up but it is available on a Sony web site.
However the machines mentioned are very different animals. The Sony is for the big cinema screen and the others are for smaller screens and likely made for simulation applications.

The Barco is completely targeted at and seemingly only marketed to the enterprise collaboration market, not the simulation market (see for instance ISE and infocomm pre-show info). Barco has a simulation series based on the Gemedis LCoS panels.

sony will have in october 2008 a new version of there
r 110 4k pr.

the biggest differnce is it will have dvi WITH HDCP and the noise level should be
lees than the r110.
price will be arround the same and cr. the still spec. 2000:1 but i hear
they can do now 2500:1 with still low ansi at in the best case 300:1.
the call the unit r 110 "t"

sad that it takes more than 2 years to get hdcp on there input and
seams that jvc make the same mistake again with there new 4k pr.

when companys will learn it?

W.Mayer
So what will the Sony professional 4k line up look like?
R220 system
R210 system
R110t
S110t

Do you know what separates the R and S models?

I will anser my own question
R-line
24,48fps at 4k and HD-SDI
S-line
24.48,60fps at 4k

But I do hope that Sony goes to a single lamp solution for all models or is there any benefit from having dual lamp? Also for 3D it would be good if they could speed up to 120fps.

i am not very interestet in this.
the only big differnce will be the "t" model will have hdcp that it.

i am not sure but i guess there will be 2 "t" models.

the 105 with 5000 lumen and the 110 with 10000 lumen.
dont think they will change lamp design or other major parts.

Do we anticipate that any of these units will be shown at CEDIA.

Obviously ,the Qualia 4K replacement will ,but the lumens may be lower than we want for starters.

Art

Do we anticipate that any of these units will be shown at CEDIA.

Obviously ,the Qualia 4K replacement will ,but the lumens may be lower than we want for starters.

Art

my feeling is that we see it not at infocom we see it cedia this year.

And the new entry level d-cine Barco that we did not see in infocom we will see in Cinema Expo in Amsterdam this weekend.

And the new entry level d-cine Barco that we did not see in infocom we will see in Cinema Expo in Amsterdam this weekend.

yes but the difference will be that this barco pr. will be at cinema expo
in amsterdam for sure opposite to the much talk since long time
from some avs members about the sony 4k consumer pr.that is on this
and this and this show for sure:)

the sony 4k (qualia repalcment) will be at cedia this year if not major
problems lately comes up.

And the new entry level d-cine Barco that we did not see in infocom we will see in Cinema Expo in Amsterdam this weekend.

You're coming over?

No in this case the mountain will come to Muhammad. :D

from page 3 above:
“Reach for Me,” the first feature-length motion picture to be shot and produced entirely in 4K, will be screened tonight on Sony’s 4K Digital Cinema Projection System. Directed by LeVar Burton and produced by AMediaVision Productions, the movie was captured using DALSA’s Origin 4K cinematography camera, with 4K image processing and digital intermediate (DI) managed by Post Logic.

Lead paragraph from this May 5th press release . Sorry if mentioned elsewhere; a forum search here for "reach" didn't hit anything AFAIK. -- John

Here's a June 30 article (http://www.uemedia.net/CPC/digitalcinemamag/articles/article_17112.shtml) outlining how this all-4k production, at times reaching 2 terabytes daily, was color graded. -- John