CNET mentions the DTV converter box program and says to wait for the Echostar TR-40, either to buy it or drive the price of the others to $40.00.

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9906407-7.html?tag=cnetfd.mt

Keep in mind that Wal*Mart's decision to sell RCA and Magnavox CECBs for $50 did influence BB, CC and RS to reduce the prices of their CECBs from $70 to $60.

If the Echostar TR-40 makes it to market, it will definitely create more price competition. It's also possible that other CECB brands will make it to market, creating competition even before the eventual arrival of the Echostar.

And it is also possible that supply of the Echostar won't be able to keep up with demand...thus current models won't need to lower prices as they will be the only ones left...;)

Interesting article, but the argument seems to be one that has been applied to every electrical product since the beginning of time: product capabilities will improve over time and the prices will drop. So his argument could have just as easily been (and who knows, may still end up being): don't get the coupon this summer either when the EchStar becomes available, because by then there will be YAP (yet another product) on the horizon thta will trump it.

I think if I followed this reasoning I'd still be waiting to buy my first computer, instead of just bucking up and doing it in the mid 1980s.

I don't think you're aware of the TR-40's feature's importance to a great many people.

The full guide and the VCR timer features are huge differences worth waiting for. (And if it "coverts" the digital TVGOS signal to analog, that's also a feature that's very important to the hundreds of thousands of TVGOS recorder owners out there.)

NONE of those other boxes have those things. It isn't just another model. If all they wanted was just something to receive SD ATSC signals, then yeah, it wouldn't make much difference.

If it does all those things, I wouldn't actually even mind one bit paying full price for it.

I'm aware. I'm looking at it myself. But if the unit does become available june, then if that holds you actually CAN apply for coupon today & still have it valid in time to buy this unit. And if it's still not available at the end of June ... maybe you should consider a product that will have been delayed twice (from March to June, and from June to ???) vaporware anyway, and go buy something else.

How long would it take to get the coupon, if you applied for it today, anyway? Wouldn't surprise me if it's at least a few weeks, since it's the gov. So it would probably be dated from mailing date, giving you additional time before expiration

I don't know - I applied Jan. 02, and I'm still waiting for mine.

In my case I don't need one of these boxes now. I've already got 3 of 'em, and they all receive actual HD, and they all look much better on an SD display than any of the SD ATSC tuners in the DVD recorders I tried do.

But my coupons are (supposedly) "in the mail", and if I did actually need one, I wouldn't hesitate to get one now.

I don't think most of the people who want the TR-40 actually feel they are in dire need of an ATSC tuner right now - at least the ones I've talked to around here - they're just waiting for the features of the TR-40. They've already had their minds made up about it. I don't think any of them even care what CNET has to say about it at this stage. They either already have a capable ATSC tuner (or more), or they can wait. And many of them have said that if they have to pay full price, then oh, well.

IMHO, just another case of folks trying to make a sow's ear into a silk purse.
These are way less than $50 after coupon, and most of the nitpicking here is by those of us the boxes aren't really intended for anyway.

Most of the nitpicking here is by those of us the boxes aren't really intended for anyway. Yes. The CECBs currently on the market are inexpensive - while they will get cheaper in the future, there isn't a huge profit margin in these boxes. These boxes don't represent no-holds-barred cutting-edge state of the art HD technology; they are simply a lowest-common-denominator device enabling ATSC OTA reception by millions of pre-ATSC television receivers still in use throughout America.

Paying $60 for a CECB (before $40 NTIA coupon) is nothing like the price premium paid by early adopters for, say, the Apple iPhone or XBox 360. For those with longer memories, anyone recall how much money it cost to be an early adopter for the original IBM PC or the original Apple Macintosh a couple decades ago?

Does CECB=Consumer Electronics Cable Box???:confused:

Splicer, CECB = coupon eligible converter box

Yah, well, CNET is basically just doing the same kind of speculation we've been doing on this board. Where govt programs are concerned, my theory is that it isn't a good idea to get in line right away--just in case it's hosed up at the launch. And if you wait too long, you may lose out in the final scramble.

Granted, on paper the TR-40 seems to have two nice additional features in the channel change timer (for DVDR/VCR folks) and the full EPG, but I'm also concerned about picture and sound quality. If those aren't good, the two nicies won't matter.

So I applied for my coupons today. If the TR-40 comes available before they expire (if it really debuts in June or July, it will), I'll probably give it a try.

That is a very point - look at so many of the early adopters now suffering with drawbacks:

The Magnavox boxes are a complete disaster- poor ventilation, no on-unit buttons, terrible design over all and many seem to be DOA out of the box as well.


Then to the biggest and most serious issue - Analog Pass Through, or there-in the lack of. Best Buy is shipping back its Insignia's, Walmart is pulling the Magnavox's, Radio Shack is demanding LG and Digital Stream replace the current inventories with versions that has Pass Through on them...

Now there is going to be a HUGE rush for all of the companies to re-certify pass through versions of their boxes, but the demand for the Pass through tuners is going to be so great, that now the wait lists to get quantities of the tuners for manufacturers to upgrade their boxes could throw a massive monkey wrench into things and see delays of boxes increasing by 30-45 days...

Best bet at this point is to use your coupon, buy a box, then hold onto it until the pass through boxes come in and trade it in for a Pass through box.

If you haven't applied, wait until June/July and by that time - around August to September, most manufacturers who are still in the game once the dust settles will all be Pass Through and things will start to align themselves for the biggest and most important phase of the transition, the huge holidays sales push of these units for the end of the years where it is going to need to matter most.

I have a feeling that after Jan 1st 2009, I'd expect to see boxes actually go UP in price as the johnny come lately's and fence sitters will all begin a massive rush to the stores to get their boxes within the final 6 weeks to the transition and dealers will take advantage of this with higher pricing.

That is a very point - look at so many of the early adopters now suffering with drawbacks:

The Magnavox boxes are a complete disaster- poor ventilation, no on-unit buttons, terrible design over all and many seem to be DOA out of the box as well.

Then to the biggest and most serious issue - Analog Pass Through, or there-in the lack of. Best Buy is shipping back its Insignia's, Walmart is pulling the Magnavox's...



Where did you read this? Both boxes are still showing as available at both sites, and a quick Google search has turned up nothing.

I'm not that crazy about the look/feel of the Magnavox converter, but it does have an odd feature that caused at least one individual who left a review at the Wal-Mart website to swap his converter box twice, thinking that each was DOA--a manual on/off rocker switch on the side of the converter. This may have something to do with the other DOA reports.

I have a feeling that after Jan 1st 2009, I'd expect to see boxes actually go UP in price as the johnny come lately's and fence sitters will all begin a massive rush to the stores to get their boxes within the final 6 weeks to the transition and dealers will take advantage of this with higher pricing.I expect the opposite. Last minute "Johnny come lately's" are by def those who haven't been paying attention (in fact, it's questionable if there'll even be coupons left for them). They aren't going to appreciate many of the difference between th boxes, and so are probably going to buy whatever is cheapest/free, meaning a lot of pressure for someone to nail the $40 price point exactly in order to capture volume.

Check the status of CECB applications to determine when to apply:http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/status.html

According to the FAQ's about the coupons: "There are 22.25 million coupons available to all U.S. households. Once those coupons have been used, there are an additional 11.25 million coupons available only to households that solely receive their TV broadcasts over-the-air using an antenna. Households with TVs connected to cable, satellite or other pay TV service are not eligible for this second batch of coupons. Consumers can apply for coupons until March 31, 2009, or until the funds are exhausted."
Under: Coupon Program: Getting a Coupon 7.Are all consumers eligible for the coupon program?

CNET mentions the DTV converter box program and says to wait for the Echostar TR-40, either to buy it or drive the price of the others to $40.00. FLAW:

If I wait too long, I might fall into the "second half" of the Coupon program that only gives away 1 coupon, not 2. That would kinda suck. Then to the biggest and most serious issue - Analog Pass Through, or there-in the lack of. I consider this to be the LEAST serious issue for two reasons:

(1) After February 2009, you're not going to need analog passthru, because virtually all stations are changing to digital. (Example: Grand Rapids' MyNetTV is doing a flashover to DTV at midnight Feb 17.)

(2) And for those few persons (about 0.1% of the populace) who are unlucky enough to live in an empty region..... served in 2009 by only a low-power analog transmitter..... there is a VERY simple solution:

--- (a) Unscrew the antenna from the converter box
--- (b) Rescrew the antenna into your TV.
--- (c) Done!

Or just use a freakin' A/B switch. It's NOT a serious issue.... it's a trivial problem affecting only 0.1% of the post-Feb 2009 population, and the problem is so easily fixed, I don't think it should be labeled a problem. The phrase "minor inconvenience" is the best term.

I have no buyer's remorse over my Zenith and Digital Stream CECBs. They have made OTA television superior to the bottom-tier analog cable service on my legacy TV and DVR hardware. No more having to subscribe to cable for a decent picture.

I don't quite get the urgency over the "analog pass-through" issue. These boxes are designed to let people with old analog TVs keep using them after 2/17/09. Why would the mfrs include a feature that'll be useless after that date, except for the few people who get one of those low-power analog stations, for which they can just keep using the TV's analog tuner?

I'd be gob-smacked of stores started pulling inventory because a unit lacks this feature.

As for the "huge holiday sales push," I can see it now: "Hey, honey, look what I got you for Christmas! Honey?" >>WHACK!!<< "Ow! You're not happy with your gift, dear?"

Yeah, the Magnavox box isn't as good as the Zenith, but if you're less critical about picture quality, etc., and cheap like my dad, you may prefer its $10 (or is it $20?) lower price.

everything in the country is late and i'm sure pulling the plug on analog tv will also be just like picking the date was.

IAs for the "huge holiday sales push," I can see it now: "Hey, honey, look what I got you for Christmas! Honey?" >>WHACK!!<< "Ow! You're not happy with your gift, dear?" Ha. Funny. :-) Well at Christmas time people don't just buy gifts for others. They also buy gifts for themselves. That's why I pick November-December as my prime time for Ebay selling --- I get more hits at that time of year (and higher bids) than any other point.

Anyway... that's why these boxes will be heavily pushed at Christmas. To catch those husbands who are shopping for their wives, and end-up buying 2 present (one for her and one for himself).

I don't think you're aware of the TR-40's feature's importance to a great many people.

The full guide and the VCR timer features are huge differences worth waiting for. (And if it "coverts" the digital TVGOS signal to analog, that's also a feature that's very important to the hundreds of thousands of TVGOS recorder owners out there.)

NONE of those other boxes have those things. It isn't just another model. If all they wanted was just something to receive SD ATSC signals, then yeah, it wouldn't make much difference.

If it does all those things, I wouldn't actually even mind one bit paying full price for it.

Right on! Majority of people who buy this converter boxes own at least one VCR. Those who still use VCRs to record their Off-air broadcast shows are in for a big surprise after the switchover to digital. The importance of having
a VCR timer on the CECBs would then be realized. I predict a jump in sales for DVD Recorders and Tivo DVRs next year. The exclusion of a VCR timer feature was probably done intentionally.

Splicer, CECB = coupon eligible converter box

Thanks...:)

All these damn acronyms are really getting to be ridiculous...

Certified Converter Boxes / Analog Pass-through Boxes 66 / 7

So this mean only 7 boxes have analog pass through, geez. The switch box everyone is talking about will fail if you want to watch a digital program but tape an analog broadcast at the same time on your VCR. A spliter will degrade the single which might make it to weak for taping. Which opens another question, can these boxes do analog pass through and digital at the same time?

FLAW:

If I wait too long, I might fall into the "second half" of the Coupon program that only gives away 1 coupon, not 2. That would kinda suck. I consider this to be the LEAST serious issue for two reasons:



WRONG answer there bud - there is NO "1 coupon / 2 coupon limit" per phase. It's 2 coupons per household, regardless of which phase (1 or 2) that you get them in. The restriction for phase 2 is that only households with OTA ONLY may get coupons in phase 2. In phase 1 - ANYONE household can get their 2 coupons - cable and DBS subscribers as well as OTA.

The restriction for phase 2 is that only households with OTA ONLY may get coupons in phase 2. In phase 1 - ANYONE household can get their 2 coupons - cable and DBS subscribers as well as OTA.
Here's something where I've never gotten a straight answer, even from the reps at 1-888-DTV-2009 (the one who finally admitted to understanding my question asked me to hold and then gave up on finding out from her supervisors): in phase 2, is a household eligible if its area isserved by cable or satellite but its residents simply have chosen not to have them?

We have cable; we're not eligible.  Our neighbors to the south have satellite and all their TVs are on it, so they're sitting out the transition entirely.  But our neighbors to the north, who could get cable or satellite if they wished, do not have either, and all their sets are fed from their roof antenna.  Would they be eligible for phase 2 if they miss out on phase 1?

They subscribe to DBS or cable => they are not eligible for Phase 2. However, they ARE eligible for phase 1. If they do NOT subscribe to cable or satellite - they ARE eligible for phase 2.

They subscribe to DBS or cable => they are not eligible for Phase 2. However, they ARE eligible for phase 1. If they do NOT subscribe to cable or satellite - they ARE eligible for phase 2.
Scooper, that's what the literal wording says, and per it my neighbors to the north, if they don't get coupons during phase 1, will be eligible for phase 2 even though they could subscribe to cable or satellite, simply because they've been choosing not to.  Someone could even have cable or satellite service on order but not yet installed or not yet activated, I guess, and be eligible for phase 2.  But I'm just not that confident in that reading.

While we're on the subject of what if's, here's something I just thougth of. It doesn't apply to me or anyone I know, I am just curious. What if a person has a free-to-air satellite system (either small Ka-Ku band or large C-band) but does not subscribe to any pay satellite services. Are they eligible for coupons in phase 2?

Yes...

what are they going to do, come to your house and check. Not everyone can afford cable/satellite/FIOS, it's not cheap and with gas and food prices rising something got to go and it looks like pay TV. Digital TV with it's multiple channels might being broadcast TV back into the main fold. Think sports games be on more than one channel at the same time, main channel and the sub channels.

Desert Hawk

This is the first time I have ever heard of free-to-air satellite system (either small Ka-Ku band or large C-band).
I see that you need a Satellite Dish and a free-to-air receiver.
So is the receiver analog or digital?

I wonder why EchoStar did not push for this so you could have used a coupon to get a receiver and buy a dish from them.

Some drawbacks are cost of the dish and would not work for everyone because of clear view of the sky and zoning.

many think that was echostars plan all along but to many figured it out. We will have to wait and see when their box comes to market how they will play it.

So this mean only 7 boxes have analog pass through, geez. The switch box everyone is talking about will fail if you want to watch a digital program but tape an analog broadcast at the same time on your VCR. True. But even if you bought a "passthru" converter box, you can't do that function. You can't watch DTV and record ATV at the same time. A spliter will degrade the single which might make it to weak for taping. The passthru boxes ALSO use a splitter to provide that functionality. So there's no real difference.

The only free-to-air satellite channels available are religious, educational, home shopping, foreign language, state legislature equivalents of C-SPAN, and some audio services. Definately no free ESPN, etc. Most signals are digital, but a few analog signals remain.

I wonder why EchoStar did not push for this so you could have used a coupon to get a receiver and buy a dish from them..

This is certainly a way for Echostar to get new customers. I haven't seen one of these boxes yet but I imagine that when a digital signal is weak it will say "Digital Signal Unavailable, Call Dish at 1-800 DISH."

doesn't it matter where the switch take place since signals degrades down the wire. IF it's in the box itself isn't that at the source and would degrade it much less if switched out said longer ways away. The box could also pump up the single if added.

The only free-to-air satellite channels available are religious, educational, home shopping, foreign language, state legislature equivalents of C-SPAN, and some audio services.That's mostly with c-band (BUD), though. I think that there's a little more available with ku-band, like some OTA network feeds, isn't there?

Cnet: Which (nearly) free DTV converter box should I buy? I guess that like the RCA.
http://reviews.cnet.com/4321-6487_7-6613951.html?tag=nl.e404

RCA DTA800
Editors' Rating 7.3

Zenith DTT900
Editors' Rating 6.7

Insignia NS-DXA1
Editors' Rating 6.7

Cnet: Which (nearly) free DTV converter box should I buy? I guess that like the RCA.
http://reviews.cnet.com/4321-6487_7-6613951.html?tag=nl.e404

RCA DTA800
Editors' Rating 7.3

Zenith DTT900
Editors' Rating 6.7

Insignia NS-DXA1
Editors' Rating 6.7

The Insignia is just a rebranded Zenith, so you really only have two to choose from. The Insignia has a 90 warranty. I'm not sure about the Zenith.

Which one is better depends on what is important to you. All of these early boxes have their quirks.

The Zenith/Insignia seems to be the best. It's main flaw is that it messes up some stereo audio signals. It looks like all the models that use the LG DT111D chip have this problem. If you don't care about stereo, it looks like a good choice. Several stores carry the Zenith/Insignia.

The RCA DTA800B seems OK also. It's main quirk is that you can't add new channels without wiping out your previous channels. This is bad if you need to adjust your antenna for different stations. The RCA is harder to find than the Zenith/Insignia.

It looks like both RCA and LG/Zenith are developing newer versions of these boxes. No word on when they might be available.

The only free-to-air satellite channels available are religious, educational, home shopping, foreign language, state legislature equivalents of C-SPAN, and some audio services. Definately no free ESPN, etc. Most signals are digital, but a few analog signals remain.

That's mostly with c-band (BUD), though. I think that there's a little more available with ku-band, like some OTA network feeds, isn't there?


no ESPN, but there is a satellite out there that broadcasts the disney channel in C-band (BUD) frequencies

you can get some network wild feeds and other random stuff with a free to air Ku-band and a relatively large dish (3-6 ft vs. 1.5 ft for standard Dish Network or DirecTV dish) and a linear/circular LNB.... but nothing spectacular

check here, and look for channels that have the "F" in the white box in the "video encryption" columns, those are what you can get for free:
http://lyngsat.com/america.html

I was lucky I applied for my coupons on Jan 3rd and received them on April 7th so they expire June 27. I will wait for the tr-40

Your name is not on the card but it is on the magnetic swip
{cardnumber} lastname/firstname and something that looks like a date (080612) but it is not when i applied or exp. date with a one and bunch of zeros following

Well, I actually signed up for my coupon the same day this CNET article was posted. What has happened in the meantime?
I still have not received my coupon. Meaning that even if I get it tomorrow, it will be good unitl the end of July
The TR-40 (what the guy says you should wait for) will be out in mid June, and it's nto just vaporware -- beta testers have it
Now my only real question is, will I get my coupon in time to buy the echostar, not the other wayaround, lol. So ironically, for the goal that this guy advocated -- getting the Tr-40 when it comes out -- his advice may turn out to have been the WORST advice he could have given to achieve it LOL.

It's a real crap shoot trying to figure out which CECB will be available when my coupon arrives.

I waited until CECB's were available locally before ordering the coupon on April 15. A few days later the dtv2009 site said I was approved and that the coupon would ship MAY 15! What the ....

A valid reason for the delay may have been posted elsewhere, but these 'coupon fulfillment' bozos are working from the same playbook as the 'mail rebate' folks.

I still have not received my coupon. Meaning that even if I get it tomorrow, it will be good unitl the end of July.Maybe not; the ninety days start running as of the date the NTIA wants the fulfillment house to mail the coupon, not as of the date the consumer receives it.  Delivery time plus any delays at the fulfillment house that the NTIA didn't allow for eat into your time to use it.

My coupons arrived with only 78 days left on them: on April 7 with June 24 as their expiration, effectively backdated to March 26.  So if a box I want comes out at the end of June, my remaining coupon (one has been used already) will have expired and I'll have to pay full price for it, even though ninety days from receipt of the coupons would be July 6.

If your coupons arrive tomorrow, they may well expire in the middle of July.

Mine arrived today, 30 April, with an expiration of 21 July.

Please transfer this thread about CECBs to the new CECB subforum. Thanks.

Please transfer this thread about CECBs to the new CECB subforum. Thanks.

What's up with all of the useless posts on every thread? Are you trying to increase your post counts just to make you feel more important? Does the title Senior make you feel good?

What's up with all of the useless posts on every thread? As a newbie, you don't realize the CECB subforum was just created within the last week. Most discussions of CECBs didn't use the phrase "CECB" and haven't yet been migrated to that forum, so the HDTV Technical main forum remains focused on other high definition gear than the coupon-eligible converter boxes.

As a newbie, you don't realize the CECB subforum was just created within the last week. Most discussions of CECBs didn't use the phrase "CECB" and haven't yet been migrated to that forum, so the HDTV Technical main forum remains focused on other high definition gear than the coupon-eligible converter boxes.

Actually I joined the site on December 2007, a month ahead of you :) I only posted when I needed to discuss something. I knew the subforum was created recently. My point is that you could have PMed the mod instead of creating a bunch of useless posts just to bump them to the top.

That's not entirely true...


Remember the February 17th 2009 deadline is only for High Power Transmission stations, that are over 2,500 Low Powered Community Stations which will not make the move to digital until the pricing becoming economical for them since they specifically service local/rural markets.

So people will in fact HAVE to have Converters with Analog Pass-through since they will want to watch the digital programming and continue to receive their local Community TV stations via Analog as well.

You don't technically have to have it. There are other ways to get around it, possibly using splitters, distribution amps and/or A/B switches, along with a TV or VCR/DVDR with an NTSC tuner.

Or, people may find as I did, that the dozen channels still analog are nearly all boosters. Now that one tv is set up for digital (great pic), nobody at my house is watching the LP analog they can still get on unconverted tvs, so that makes it not so essential. I have multiple antenna inputs on my 12 year old tv, so I have yet another option, analog working off my tv remote. In remote areas where everything stays analog -- by the time stations start making the transition miserable, people may have another tv.