IS this thing a TV antenna for the home or does the government use it to spy on the Russians?

Uh.

It's obviously a TV antenna. I have it and can receive channels 7 to 69 with good clarity. It's actually sitting next to my TV (since I was too lazy to crawl onto my roof). Nice compact design.

Actually, it's a little-known fact that NORAD uses a huge array of 4228's on top of Cheyenne Mountain to watch Russian TV in HD. :D

When you need something like a 4228 - you really need it :D !!!

When you need something like a 4228 - you really need it :D !!!

Or you are like me and just go and buy the biggest antenna so I don't have to bother experimenting with all the little ones. :)

Here's a whole thread dedicated to the 4228: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=41990

Somewhere in there is a picture of my antenna setup.

Uh.

It's obviously a TV antenna. I have it and can receive channels 7 to 69 with good clarity. It's actually sitting next to my TV (since I was too lazy to crawl onto my roof).

Get that thing on your roof! Show it off and wear it with pride! Make sure your house is firmly planted since it can act as a sail!

Nice compact design.

LMAO! Nice sarcasm!

But it's not enough to tackle fading over two hills @ 35+ miles.

You just need to ask whoever owns those hills if you can mount an antenna on top of one of them. ;-)

Or else subscribe to Limited Cable TV (15 channels) and let them pull in the distant stations for you. LMAO! Nice sarcasm! That wasn't sarcasm. The CM4228 is a lot more compact than the 100-inch long VHF/UHF booms I see on most homes. The CM4228 fits compactly inside my room next to my TV and stereo..... those 100-inch booms certainly would not fit.



As for the roof, I'm not convinced it would make any difference. I'm already on the second floor, and I doubt raising it up another 10 feet is going to make me get the additional stations from Baltimore or Philadelphia (60 miles distant). Maybe I'm wrong and I would get those long-distance stations, but I doubt it.

Also it's convenient to have the antenna sitting right next to the TV. I just spin it around!

"An antenna that is one meter or less in diameter or diagonal measurement....." - FCC

Does the CM4228 violate this rule? I've never measured it, but diagonally it appears to be more than a meter.

Of course it says "or", so if it's less than a meter in diameter it should be okay, even if the diagonal measurement is ~1.1 meters.

"An antenna that is one meter or less in diameter or diagonal measurement....." - FCC

Does the CM4228 violate this rule? I've never measured it, but diagonally it appears to be more than a meter.

Of course it says "or", so if it's less than a meter in diameter it should be okay, even if the diagonal measurement is ~1.1 meters.

The "diameter" applies to circular or elliptical dishes, not squares.

I'd wager that if the CM4228 violated FCC regulations, they wouldn't still be selling it after this many years. :)

Also, obligatory "In Soviet Russia, Channel Master spies on you!"

But it's not enough to tackle fading over two hills @ 35+ miles.

It depends on the channels.

If a channel is broadcasting with a strong radiating pattern (a nice solid circle) at full-power, I've had no trouble at multiple locations that were less that ideal getting consistent reception at 60 mi with CM 4228 + CM 7777 pre-amp under worse conditions than what you just described.

No antenna can make up for a transmitter's flaws. But, the CM 4228 is one of the better choices if you would like to try.

The CM4228 is a lot more compact than the 100-inch long VHF/UHF booms I see on most homes. The CM4228 fits compactly inside my room next to my TV and stereo..... those 100-inch booms certainly would not fit.

Definitely. The 4228 looks large until you put it next to a boom type antenna. Certainly, it is larger vertically, but it's so much easier to deal with in attics, etc. On the roof, it is a bit of a sail...

Considering how old it is (20+ years?, I have no idea really), it is almost uncanny how well it works in the 7-51 range. It's almost like it was made for post-transition, unlike most other UHF antennas which are designed for max gain at ~65.

It makes me wonder if a similar design can be applied to upper VHF. Something the size of a 4228 would have 1 bow-tie 4x element I suspect. Currently, I have a 100" boom YA-1713 for VHF and that was much harder to deal with in the attic than the 4228.

this would look so cool on my roof. People in the town would think i was from outer space or something. So is this the best for the new digital TV switch over. NY Long Island right on the queens/nassau border

That wasn't sarcasm. The CM4228 is a lot more compact than the 100-inch long VHF/UHF booms I see on most homes. The CM4228 fits compactly inside my room next to my TV and stereo..... those 100-inch booms certainly would not fit.


OK, very true!

As for the roof, I'm not convinced it would make any difference. I'm already on the second floor, and I doubt raising it up another 10 feet is going to make me get the additional stations from Baltimore or Philadelphia (60 miles distant). Maybe I'm wrong and I would get those long-distance stations, but I doubt it.

Also it's convenient to have the antenna sitting right next to the TV. I just spin it around!

10 feet up plus being outside should make a huge difference. But, you really don't know until you try. I have a rotator on my 4228, but since I raised my antenna from ~5 feet off my roof to ~10 feet, I use it very little, since all my channels come in now without turning the antenna. This includes one channel that is 53 miles BEHIND my antenna.

this would look so cool on my roof. People in the town would think i was from outer space or something. So is this the best for the new digital TV switch over. NY Long Island right on the queens/nassau border

My roof: http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3767/antennasetupjk7.jpg

"An antenna that is one meter or less in diameter or diagonal measurement....." - FCC

Does the CM4228 violate this rule? I've never measured it, but diagonally it appears to be more than a meter.

Of course it says "or", so if it's less than a meter in diameter it should be okay, even if the diagonal measurement is ~1.1 meters.


Yet another case of you taking things out of context.
That particular phrase applies ONLY to DBS dishes - not OTA antennas (which can be any size at all !) Feel free to read the WHOLE OTARD (link provided in my sig....)

My old antenna is a radio shack going back 20 years. It's hooked to the chimney and the screws are rusted. When we had our roof done i asked the guy if he could move it up the pole since it was under a broken one he removed for us but he said the screws were rusted tight. It now has a 300 ohm twin lead cable so would it be better to use coaxial inside and out. Do you think it would be good to oder a new pole and strapping, one of the chimney straps now are broken on the old antenna.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/ant_mounts.htm

Stupid question but does this atenna get all stations,2~83 UHF/VHF/Digital

I'd suggest it - when they start rusting it's time to think about replacements. Also think about replacing cable every so often as well, especially anything outside - it will deteriorate over time. Also think about maintenance when you're installing - you really DON'T want to put fittings prone to rust at an inaccessable location.

this would look so cool on my roof. People in the town would think i was from outer space or something. So is this the best for the new digital TV switch over. NY Long Island right on the queens/nassau border
Cooler.

http://www.w6rz.net/6m7jhv.jpg

Ron

When there is strong troposhperic venting, I can get a distant channel 5 (WRAL) with the CM 4228, but nothing lower. It does get upper VHF well, and even FM radio.

you saying this can't pick up channels 2,4 ? When the switch over happens all vhf will end and everything will go uhf?

I have heard that some channels will still use the upper VHF band, which the 4228 gets just fine, just not the VHF low band which will go away post 2/'09

You just need to ask whoever owns those hills if you can mount an antenna on top of one of them. ;-)

Or else subscribe to Limited Cable TV (15 channels) and let them pull in the distant stations for you.


Already suggested by station engineer, no cable, sat only

anyone know about how much it would cost to setup an antenna and run the wires through the house? It would go to 5 rooms, 2 upstairs, 2 downstairs, 1 basement. Besides the antenna, hardware, wall plates and cables what else would i need. I seen an ad for some guy who installs dish/antenna and does all the wiring and i'm not going on the roof and do it myself. NO ladder that tall.
The pole sections are 5' so do you think that would be enough or should i buy 2 for 10'? These poles screw together but can they unscrew in the wind?

7777 UHF/VHF pre-amp $ 52.89
Channel Master Model 4228 $ 49.49
Chimney Mount 18' stainless steel straps One pair. 9067 Channel Master $ 21.16
5 Ft. Antenna Mast (Heavy Duty) Stackable $ 7.30
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm

I have heard that some channels will still use the upper VHF band, which the 4228 gets just fine, just not the VHF low band which will go away post 2/'09

I only wish the Low-VHF band was going away. ATSC is good, but it's not that good.

There are only 40 full power stations that will be on 2-6, with the most notable being WPVI/ABC in Philadelphia.

As for low-power stations, time will tell what happens.

The current 2/09 full-power count is planned to be:

Low VHF (2-6): 40
High VHF (7-13): 452
UHF (14-51): 1327

Most areas will at least need upper VHF, but few will need lower VHF. My spreadsheet has more info on this.

I'm wondering what the other ATSC countries are doing for Low-VHF. As respects the European/world standard, DVB-T can't touch Low VHF and even High VHF seems to be problematic.

They never want to make anything cut & dry do they:confused:
Thanks for the info. I've been told in my area(55337) that only one station will use the VHF high, none that I'm aware of will use VHF low.

How do you run wires through existing walls with out punching holes in them.

NY Long Island right on the queens/nassau border

That's what, 12-15 miles from the Empire State Building (where most of your transmitters are)? The 4228 is overkill for you. The Channel Master 4221 (the 4-bay model) would probably be enough, maybe even the 4220 (2-bay) if it's outside on the roof.

yeah but the 4228 looks cool and for $49 why not

I downloaded it but couldn't read it. Something about needing Excel. I thought I read somewhere about a free download to just view Excel spreadsheets. Does anyone know about one for XP?
Thanks!

yeah but the 4228 looks cool and for $49 why not

Put it on a rotator and watch your neighbors' eyes pop out as the antenna spins around. :) You might even be able to get some stations from Connecticut that way.

I downloaded it but couldn't read it. Something about needing Excel. I thought I read somewhere about a free download to just view Excel spreadsheets. Does anyone know about one for XP?
Thanks!

Free Excel viewer:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c8378bf4-996c-4569-b547-75edbd03aaf0&displaylang=EN

How do you run wires through existing walls with out punching holes in them.

It's called fishing or snaking:

http://www.forteelectric.com/SnakeWire.html

I only wish the Low-VHF band was going away. ATSC is good, but it's not that good.

Most of the poor results on Low band are on channels 2-3. Once the analogs are turned off, the maximum low band power can be raised.

Thanks for the spreadsheet Falcon77, and thanks for the link for the viewer Wblynch. Download went fine(3hrs on dial-up:( including the 2007 update)

Channels - CM4228 performance
14--: The CM4228 is excellent for channels 14 and higher (UHF).
7-13: For channels 7-13 it works, but only if the station is nearby (less than 30 miles).
2-6: For channels 2-6 you need a VHF antenna like a Yagi boom. For me, I have channel 6 in Philadelphia, but since it's a lousy station, I decided to lose it. Already suggested by station engineer, no cable, sat only DishTV offers free-to-air channels for $6 a month. I am seriously considering that option, rather than risk falling off my roof, trying to mount an antenna. I have a 100" boom YA-1713 for VHF and that was much harder to deal with in the attic than the 4228. How did you connect your YA-1713 and 4228 together? A VHF/UHF splitter cable?

Why can't the 4228 get all the stations like my rabbit ears do? Ok my rabbit ear is really 2 atennas, two scoping and one round

How did you connect your YA-1713 and 4228 together? A VHF/UHF splitter cable?

By way of a VHF/UHF diplexer, such as:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ

I am considering another one to filter out Low-VHF as I have no need for those frequencies.

Why can't the 4228 get all the stations like my rabbit ears do? Ok my rabbit ear is really 2 atennas, two scoping and one round

The 4228 is one UHF antenna, which happens to work for some upper VHF channels. Don't expect anything out of the 4228 for channels 2-6 and possibly 8 and 12.

I do not have 8 and 12 available in my area. Can someone confirm the performance of the 4228 on these? HDTV Primer shows nulls for 8 and 12, but I have not been able to test these as I am in an "odd channel" DMA.

The other answer is that the 4228 is quite directional, meaning stations coming from the sides or the back aren't as likely to be received unless the antenna is turned.

Why can't the 4228 get all the stations like my rabbit ears do? Ok my rabbit ear is really 2 atennas, two scoping and one round


The cm 4228 is a UHF antenna that just happens to receive hi band vhf. Simple answer.

The topic has been beat up enough by all the internet amateaurs and I am not going to waste my time with further explanation.

but VHF CBS,NBC,FOX.ABC,MY-9 are 2,4,5,7,9. OK in the digital realm these stations do broadcast in the UHF range NY,NY

DishTV offers free-to-air channels for $6 a month. I am seriously considering that option, rather than risk falling off my roof, trying to mount an antenna.I've never heard of anyone being able to subscribe to the locals alone from Dish with having to have one of their packages - the cheapest one being the Family Tier, which will run $25.00 w/locals (you do get a fairly nice selection with that package, though - better than anyone else's Family Tier, in my opinion). Cable's your only option for that from a provider.

You may not even have to get all the way up on the roof with an antenna. On the wall, a lower eave, or even just in a pole or tripod on the ground will usually be a big improvement over indoors. Something like the 4228 would just hang flat on a wall and might work, provided you don't have any stucco, aluminum siding, metal pipes or foil-backed insulation on or in the wall in that spot.

Can someone confirm the performance of the 4228 on these? HDTV Primer shows nulls for 8 and 12, but I have not been able to test these as I am in an "odd channel" DMA.

I can get channels 7 and 8 pretty good on my 4228. Analog channel 7 is about 30 miles out, and analog channel 8 is about 98 miles out. It's an encouraging sign for me that the upper VHF works so well with this antenna since some of my local UHF channels are moving to high VHF channels come 2/17/09. Should be interesting to see if it performs as well with digital upper VHF.

The other answer is that the 4228 is quite directional, meaning stations coming from the sides or the back aren't as likely to be received unless the antenna is turned.

Side reception is no good. It will pick up signal from the back though, provided it's strong enough.

I have THREE 4228's. I love this antenna.

Note: I recommend guying any mast it's mounted to (all mine are guyed).

Can I get my antenna girled instead? I prefer girls. ;-)

DishTV offers locals for either $5.00 when combined with another package, or else $6.00 when purchased alone. I've already talked to a phone rep, and she confirmed I would only need to pay $6 if I want my seven local stations. However the dish/box would be sold separately, unless DishTV is running a "free equipment" special.

Rather than waste a lot of money & crawling around on a roof trying to install an antenna, I might just take this $6 a month deal. Or the $19 Comcast deal. It depends on my mood. Why can't the 4228 get all the stations like my rabbit ears do? Ok my rabbit ear is really 2 atennas, two scoping and one round You answered your own question. You have two separate antennas... one for VHF (rabbit ears) and one for UHF (loop). The 4228 is only one antenna: UHF.

And yes the 4228 also works on VHF-hi, but merely by coincidence not design. I can get channels 8, 10, 11, 12, 13 Analog on mine. No idea how digital performs, but I'm hoping it's good, because I have several digital stations on VHF post-2009:
8 - lancaster
10 - harrisburg
11 - baltimore
12 - philadelphia
13 - baltimore

So I'll either have success, or I'll be adding a 7-13 VHF Yagi to supplement the 4228, or I'll be watching channel 8 and nothing else. In retrospect I probably should have bought a UHF/VHF combo antenna, but it's too late now.

They never want to make anything cut & dry do they:confused:
Thanks for the info. I've been told in my area(55337) that only one station will use the VHF high, none that I'm aware of will use VHF low.

Two stations KMSP 9 and KARE 11 will be going back to their VHF legacy channels in Feb. 09 - correct on the no low VHF

Rather than waste a lot of money & crawling around on a roof trying to install an antenna, I might just take this $6 a month deal. Or the $19 Comcast deal. It depends on my mood.

Do your have a TV with a QAM tuner? You might get lucky with the $19 Comcast plan and get some free HDTV channels.

What hardware will in need to run 5 tv's off this antenna

What hardware will in need to run 5 tv's off this antenna

I bought a mast mount preamp from lowes for the immediate gratification. I also asked the HDTVprimer engineer if he thought I should buy a "better" preamp in my quest for WNBC-DT (46.5 miles away). He said don't bother.

The Lowe's preamp is 300 ohm in so it takes the output of the 4228 with just a straight twinlead.

I've got about 50' feet of RG6 and a 1:2 splitter feeding a Dish DVR and an Avermedia PCIe combo tuner. The splitter "looks quality" on the outside and it has ext that sstates it's good for UHF.

But it's not enough to tackle fading over two hills @ 35+ miles.

Nor can it pick up WNBC-DT from 46.5 miles east of the ESB. Even mounted on a 10 foot pole, on top of a 1.5 story house.

Do your have a TV with a QAM tuner? You might get lucky with the $19 Comcast plan and get some free HDTV channels. Doubt it. I've had the 2-15 channel plan in the past, and they install a low-pass filter that blocks everything above channel 16.

160505GHS 5ft. HD Mast 2 $14.60
9067 Chimney mount $21.16
3045 Eight Output Amplifier $44.99
4228A 8-BAY EXTENDED RANGE HDTV-COMPATIBLE UHF ANTENNA $49.49

total $130.24 + Typical shipping charges for this antenna range from $16.00 - $28.00.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/ant_mounts.htm

Two stations KMSP 9 and KARE 11 will be going back to their VHF legacy channels in Feb. 09 - correct on the no low VHF
Thanks, I just saw the chart on our local forum today. It looks like 2 indeed. At least their both in the upper VHF band. The 4228 should work nicely, unless you're a long way out.
http://hdtvtwincities.com/forumbb/viewtopic.php?t=4012

160505GHS 5ft. HD Mast 2 $14.60
9067 Chimney mount $21.16
3045 Eight Output Amplifier $44.99
4228A 8-BAY EXTENDED RANGE HDTV-COMPATIBLE UHF ANTENNA $49.49

total $130.24 + Typical shipping charges for this antenna range from $16.00 - $28.00.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/ant_mounts.htmCheck www.solidsignal.com also - their prices may or may not be a bit cheaper.

You will need a distribution amplifier, such as Channel Master's 3045 8-way:

http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/amplifiers.htmlQuestion - for you or anyone else who knows for sure:

I know this isn't recommended, but will the Channel Master or any other distribution amps pass the power from a mast pre-amp?

The reason I ask is, when I added one split to my setup last fall, I lost just enough signal on some channels to make the reception of them spottier. I know I can just replace the antenna with one with more gain (which I probably will do anyway), but I would still like to split the signal in the house at the TV a couple more ways for other reasons.

A passive splitter won't cut it, even if I replace the antenna.

I know this isn't recommended, but will the Channel Master or any other distribution amps pass the power from a mast pre-amp?


Essentially they can't. But you can place the power injector for the pre-amp on the upstream side of the distribution amp.

One other possible solution that I'm considering myself is that if you have any uneven splits, to use a tap instead of a splitter. So if you've got, e.g. a two way split which goes to one TV on one side, and a four-way splitter with two TVs and two DVRs on the other, put in a 12dB tap instead of a splitter.

(In my case I have the antenna going through the basement to a distribution point for the rest of the house, but there's one TV in the basement which is split off in the basement. Perfect candidate for a tap, but since the setup works anyway, I haven't bothered)

Would it be possible to use the tap at one TV after the injector without replacing the two way, power-passing splitter under the house?

Depending on how your house is built, you may be able to use the 4228 in the attic. I mounted mine upside down from the highest point in the attic, I used an extension pole with two clamps to a rafter, tight enough to hold it, loose enough so that I could turn it. Had no problems, rock solid signal from 30+ miles with no amplification driving about 40 feet of RG6.

I'm really confused on how to run the cables. This house was built long time ago and just can't see how to do it though the walls. How do the cable people do this and with the Amp it has to be near a power plug. one good thing is we took the ceiling tiles off the basement ceiling so it's open.

I am 35 miles from post-transition rf 8 and 10 behind a small (50 feet wide) cluster of too tall trees and in an itty bitty valley (ground gradually slopes up 100 feet over one-quarter mile). TVFool has all my stations at pink or better. If I get this antenna 35 feet above ground, is it realistic that I can pick up these VHF stations with the 4228? Has anyone had any luck picking up channel 8 -- the stats I've seen don't look that hot at that frequency.

This antenna is designed and tuned for the UHF channels ONLY. If you need to receive VHF, you will need a VHF antenna in addition to this one. You can also get a VHF/UHF combo antenna, too.

There have been a lot of posts saying that hi-band VHF reception with a 4228 is decent, even though it was designed as a UHF-only antenna. I'd like to konw if anyone has had any luck getting channel 8 who might have similar obstructions as I do. I'm not expecting miracles from this, trust me!

There have been a lot of posts saying that hi-band VHF reception with a 4228 is decent, even though it was designed as a UHF-only antenna. I'd like to konw if anyone has had any luck getting channel 8 who might have similar obstructions as I do. I'm not expecting miracles from this, trust me!

I get Channel 8 analog on my 4228 here in New Orleans, with no preamp, at 19 miles with no problems, with an almost pristine picture. Our PBS Digital is on VHF 11, again the 4228 does fine. Hope that helped.:)

IS this thing a TV antenna for the home or does the government use it to spy on the Russians?When you need something like a 4228 - you really need it !!!this would look so cool on my roof. People in the town would think i was from outer space or something.Please, give us a break. Do some research and find out what a real antenna looks like. :rolleyes:

The 1st attachment shows a 6" and 8' parabolic, the 2nd shows dual 8 footers. That CM 4228 is pint sized.

Hi there

I was testing out a new NTSC/ATSC hybrid tuner with USB connection to the PC. Using the feed from a (split and non-amplified) Channel Master 4228 8-bay antenna in the attic, I was receiving the expected UHF channels (both analog and digital), but was also able to receive VHF channels:
4 (very weak and very noisy)(-46 dBm),
5 (weak and noisy)(-47 dBm),
7 (ghosting)(-50 dBm),
8 (weak and noisy)(-99 dBm, 2edge),
9 (ghosting)(-50 dBm),
10 (weak and noisy)(-100 dBm, 2edge),
11 (good)(-50 dBm),
12 (weak and very noisy)(?? dBm), and
13 (very good)(-51 dBm).

The VHF-high reception capabilities of the 4228 are well reported. However I was also receiving (but rather poorly) two VHF-low stations; channel 2 was the only Los Angeles VHF station that was not received. Also channels 8, 10 and 12 are San Diego stations, and are transmitted from about 73 miles to the south (the backside of the antenna).

This exceptional VHF reception occurred yesterday afternoon. Today the Los Angeles VHF stations (4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13) (about 35 miles north) have about the same reception, but the three San Diego channels are much worse/weaker.

Anyone have a guess as to why the 4228 is receiving VHF from the backside? The reflector screen is in place. I'm wondering if the San Diego KFMB 8 is interfering with the low-power KFLA-DT on 8.1.

Regards

Using the feed from a (split and non-amplified) Channel Master 4228 8-bay antenna in the attic,

...

Also channels 8, 10 and 12 are San Diego stations, and are transmitted from about 73 miles to the south (the backside of the antenna).

...

Anyone have a guess as to why the 4228 is receiving VHF from the backside? The reflector screen is in place. I'm wondering if the San Diego KFMB 8 is interfering with the low-power KFLA-DT on 8.1.


Sure .. It's in your attic, therefore you're getting a lot of signal bounce around the rafters and sheeting and shingles and who knows what else is up there.

Both links are bad. Try this;
http://www.channelmasterintl.com/documentation/datasheets/Channel%20Master%20New%204200%20Series%20HDTV%20UHF%20Antenn as_200807.pdf

I talked with a engineer from CM. They don't have any tech sheets available yet on the new design listing weight or showing polar plots, gain, F/B ratios and beamwidth. I asked about the new reflector design and he admitted that "the 4228 needed a facelift".

The pattern of the reflector screens were 'lessened'. It's not a continuious, mesh pattern anymore, only horitzontal 'rods' (probable cost & weight reduction). The end brackets are plastic. Shipping will be less since this doesn't appear to be shipped assembled anymore.

They also added an attached balun. The design has the fitting soldered to the circuit board with a nut to the plastic housing. This appears to be similar to the Antennas Direct design that will cause the the board to crack if you overtighten the fitting with a wrench. I have seen two AD boards so far that this has happen to.

It looks as the Marketing department won over the engineering dept. (as usual). A new look, a fancy name & a fancy box for Joe Average. Might be best to grab the orginal version while they still are in stock since the orginal design will be discontinued. ;)

The pattern of the reflector screens were 'lessened'. It's not a continuious, mesh pattern anymore, only horitzontal 'rods' (probable cost & weight reduction). The end brackets are plastic. Shipping will be less since this doesn't appear to be shipped assembled anymore.

This could be a good thing for reception, I've modeled this style anetnna with that type of reflector some time ago and removing the vertical part of the reflector appears to improve the reception pattern.

I see the new antenna is listed as 49" wide nearly 10" wider than the old grid style.


They also added an attached balun. The design has the fitting soldered to the circuit board with a nut to the plastic housing. This appears to be similar to the Antennas Direct design that will cause the the board to crack if you overtighten the fitting with a wrench. I have seen two AD boards so far that this has happen to.



Other than the circuit board cracking this could also be an improvement, one of the complaints about the performance of this antenna was the poor SWR match which hurts net gain on some channels. MAYBE they built in a matching arrangement better than just a simple 4:1 balun on a circuit board.
Notice that was a big fat maybe.

What I would like to know is if they have increased the element length and spacing to tune it better for UHF channels 14-52 , that would be the biggest improvement they could do. I see they still have it listed as a ch 7-69 antenna. Time will tell!!

I was impressed with the design of the matching network of the DB8, except for the structual design. They need to strengthen that mounting of the F fitting. Soldering it in two places to a small circuit board is a accident waiting to happen.
Someone not experianced could/would crack the board and never know it. That was what happend with my above example. Both networks were cracked on his DB8. AD did replace the networks for him.

Those eariler complaints about the matching network for the 4228 were proved wrong. There really isn't any difference between the way CM designed it and using two separate baluns and cables to a splitter/combiner. Their design looks kinda hoaky, but it works. After all, the design is 15-20 years old.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Those eariler complaints about the matching network for the 4228 were proved wrong. There really isn't any difference between the way CM designed it and using two separate baluns and cables to a splitter/combiner. Their design looks kinda hoaky, but it works. After all, the design is 15-20 years old.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I agree that overall the channel master open wire design is a solid set-up and the homemade ones I've built are based on the same thing. I only change the feeder length to try to favor certain channels. It's hard to cover the whole UHF TV band with single length feeder and not give up something somewhere. Some places the feed point impedence is too high and some places too low and a few places it just right.

The 2 balun / combiner set-up could work slightly better on certain channels if you got everything right but I wouldn't think (as you said) it would be an improvement across the whole band.

All that being said, I think there is room for improvement and a matching network of some kind could be the way to go.

I'm really confused on how to run the cables. This house was built long time ago and just can't see how to do it though the walls. How do the cable people do this and with the Amp it has to be near a power plug. one good thing is we took the ceiling tiles off the basement ceiling so it's open.
On the first floor, locate the studs in the general area where you wish to install your outlet box. This is so you don't cut into a stud when you cut your hole for the outlet box. Mark and cut the hole. ***Always be careful when cutting and drilling holes so you DO NOT cut any wires that may currently be installed where you're cutting.*** (I use remodeling outlet boxes that will screw and tighten to the hole when installed). Measure the distance from any corner of that wall to the hole you just cut. Then go into the basement.

If your basement ceiling is open, all you have to do to run electrical wiring, coax cable, telephone wires, is find out where the wall sill plate is, (the bottom board that the studs attach to). Measure from the same wall area to where you cut your hole, then drill up through the wall sill plate, using a drill bit big enough to run all the cable through easily. (I usually use 5/8" or 3/4"). Stick an electrical snake up through the hole just far enough so it is slightly higher than the hole you cut in the wall. (bend the snake end so it forms a small hook). Get/cut a 1' piece of coat hanger, bend the very end into a small hook, and hook the snake you placed into the bay. Once you grabbed the snake, and it is out of the wall, wrap and tape your wire, (coax, romex, telephone cord) to the snake. (when working with romex, I always splice the insulation off the wire ends, wrap them to the small hook on the snake, then tape it for added holding. when working with coax, I just place about 1' of coax on the snake, then tape it down the length of the snake). Pull the snake from the bottom, and have someone feed the line through the hole. Voila!!!! You can also run wire this way to a second floor if you have access to an open attic.

How do you run wires through existing walls with out punching holes in them.

Transdimensional holes? :D

Here's a whole thread dedicated to the 4228: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=41990

Somewhere in there is a picture of my antenna setup.

The link no longer works.

The link no longer works.
Try (post #257):
www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=24755&page=18
also:
www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=41072&page=28

rabbit73; Love you sig. ;)

It looks as the Marketing department won over the engineering dept. (as usual). A new look, a fancy name & a fancy box for Joe Average. Might be best to grab the orginal version while they still are in stock since the orginal design will be discontinued. ;)

Ya, if you look at the info on the antennas, marketing got them to join the HD hype, e.g., they describe these antennas as HD antennas, when we all know there is no such thing as an HD antenna.

The PDF even has a typo in that the list of antennas at the bottom has the CM-4221 being replaced with the CM-4221 (same for the 4228). The "HD" is missing from the end of the new antenna part number.

In my area of the woods, I really only need the 4220, as one tower is only 1 mile from where I live and the other tower about 4-5 miles (as the crow flies). One of the DTV channels is on 11, but they are requesting a move to 49 (two channels above their 47 analog channel). After the transition, there will be zero VHF channels, if Fox47 gets their request approved.

I finally got to talk to someone in engineering regarding this new and improved 4228HD.

1. CM just closed their manufacturing plant in the US last week!
2. All the new antennas are made in (guess where) China.
3. They are even farming out testing the new design to another testing facility (no specs yet). :rolleyes:
4. They should be shipping them in November.
5. The weight of the new design is around 10 lbs (3 lbs less than the orginal).
6. The horizontal elements of the reflector are solid.
7. It comes assembled, but you have to extend the "bow tie" brackets out from the reflector. The shipping box is around 3" thick.
8. They are attaching a warning sticker on the matching network not to overtighten the F fitting. It seems they have had problem with their preamps with overtightened fittings. (This is where I can say "I told you so")
9. The matching network is NOT replaceable (see above).

My high regard for Channel Master just went in the toilet. :mad:
(BTW, the engineer wasn't happy about the closing either)

Better get the orginal design while you can. ;)

My high regard for Channel Master just went in the toilet. :mad: (BTW, the engineer wasn't happy about the closing either)

Better get the orginal design while you can. ;)

CM, as we've known them, ceased to exist a couple of years ago. There have been at least 2 (possibly 3) rounds of buyouts.

The new CM4228 sure does look nicer and it is much lighter so good for roof installations. I wonder if it really will perform better like they say. I have a CM4228 in my attic and pull in stations 60 miles away at signal levels between 65 and 90 (whatever that means, signal levels should be measured in db's). Would putting in on the roof be better? I was nervous about that because of how heavy the thing is. Maybe I should just buy this new one. What do you think?

The new CM4228 sure does look nicer and it is much lighter so good for roof installations. I wonder if it really will perform better like they say. I have a CM4228 in my attic and pull in stations 60 miles away at signal levels between 65 and 90 (whatever that means, signal levels should be measured in db's). Would putting in on the roof be better? I was nervous about that because of how heavy the thing is. Maybe I should just buy this new one. What do you think? If you put it on the roof; you should notice quite a difference. I've only mounted 1 outside. It replaced a RS VU-160 on a chimney mount with a rotor. The 4228 is much lighter, and seems very stable in the wind. It way outperforms the VU-160.

I got my CM4228 a couple days ago from SolidSignal (they're awesome!)

Put it up on my 70' ham radio tower and aimed it towards the ESB. The top of the antenna is 72 feet above ground.

I live in Wantage township, NJ (Sussex county) and my location is 48.3 air miles from the ESB, according to Google Earth. Our reception path for NYC is 2edge diffraction, since we are blocked by the hills in the vernon valley. According to AntennaWeb we are a digital TV no-man's land except for religious broadcasters WTBY and WRNN.

I was quite surprised to be getting 70's on the BER meter on my TiVo Series 3 HD from the ESB stations in NYC, even though antennaweb doesn't even show those signals here, and TVFool shows them below -100dBm (average around -107dBm). My cable run is about 250ft, which will be shortened when I neaten up the cables. I was initially thinking about getting 75 ohm Andrew Heliax and using that, but IMO that is overkill. So I ended up using Commscope RG6 flooded a preamp. It's the 30dB antennacraft, but I feel I may end up homebrewing one with a lower noise figure or getting a CM7777.

Most of the NYC stations come in except for WNYW-DT and WNET-DT. Surprisingly the CM4228 works quite well for WNJB-DT even though it's on channel 8.

My next step is to try philly as I got channel 17 analog quite easily with another antenna (a POS lowe's philips yagi/corner reflector).

I do get some occasional dropouts so I may be ganging together another CM4228. Judging by the forum posts here I should be doing that soon as they are going to be making them in China now?

-Ryan (N2RJ)

Philly digitals might be difficult for you to get now, as they're largely on the high-UHF stations (poor diffraction). KYW with 580kW on RF 26 is the big exception. Several of the NY stations and two of the Philly stations are going to VHF post-transition (including WPVI on VHF-Lo, RF 6), so you might want to reserve some space for VHF antennas rather than try to gang two 4228s up there. But buying an extra 4228 now just in case wouldn't be a bad idea.

If you put it on the roof; you should notice quite a difference. I've only mounted 1 outside. It replaced a RS VU-160 on a chimney mount with a rotor. The 4228 is much lighter, and seems very stable in the wind. It way outperforms the VU-160.

Why are you using such a high gain antenna when you are so close to the towers? I live in Stephens City (60 miles form the towers) and I'm getting 70-90 signal strength. I've actually thought about getting a smaller model for putting on the roof.

Try (post #257):
www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=24755&page=18
also:
www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=41072&page=28

That first link is of the new Channel Master line. So, they just are repackaging somebody elses antenna. Typical.

Why are you using such a high gain antenna when you are so close to the towers? I live in Stephens City (60 miles form the towers) and I'm getting 70-90 signal strength. I've actually thought about getting a smaller model for putting on the roof.I didn't buy the 4228 for myself; although I did try it here just for kicks. It performed miserably as expected.

I did install the 4228 in Madison,VA; along with a CM7777. The results far exceeded my expectations. In the right environment; you can't beat the 4228.

That's pretty amazing that you get such good reception in Stephens City. Are you near Double Tollgate? Looking at TV FOOL the DC stations look to be "very" deep fringe for you. No telling what you will get with it up on the roof.

I didn't buy the 4228 for myself; although I did try it here just for kicks. It performed miserably as expected.

I did install the 4228 in Madison,VA; along with a CM7777. The results far exceeded my expectations. In the right environment; you can't beat the 4228.

That's pretty amazing that you get such good reception in Stephens City. Are you near Double Tollgate? Looking at TV FOOL the DC stations look to be "very" deep fringe for you. No telling what you will get with it up on the roof.

Yes, I'm close to Double Tollgate, just a few miles. I'm on that side of 81.

Yeah, from everything I've read about other peoples results I am amazed too but I want it to be better. Hopefully I can pull ION from the same angle without a rotater when it is mounted on the roof (will be able to watch "Get Out")

I really love those international news channels and the local subs, especially the RTN, gotta love the A-Team.

Yes, I'm close to Double Tollgate, just a few miles. I'm on that side of 81.

Yeah, from everything I've read about other peoples results I am amazed too but I want it to be better. Hopefully I can pull ION from the same angle without a rotater when it is mounted on the roof (will be able to watch "Get Out")

I really love those international news channels and the local subs, especially the RTN, gotta love the A-Team.Are you picking up ION out of Martinsburg, WV; or Fairfax VA? The picture on the translator station in Martinsburg(60.1) is very ghosty; but very good on Fairfax(66.1)Can you receive both of the MHZ channels(30-Manassas & 57-Falls Church)?

Do you ever get any digital DX out of Norfolk, VA? For some reason, it comes in here quite often; especially WHRO 15.

Are you picking up ION out of Martinsburg, WV; or Fairfax VA? The picture on the translator station in Martinsburg(60.1) is very ghosty; but very good on Fairfax(66.1)Can you receive both of the MHZ channels(30-Manassas & 57-Falls Church)?

Do you ever get any digital DX out of Norfolk, VA? For some reason, it comes in here quite often; especially WHRO 15.

Not sure which ION channel it is. I don't currently get it with the antenna aimed at 110. I do get 5 MHZ channels out of Manassas though.

I got my CM4228 a couple days ago from SolidSignal (they're awesome!)

Put it up on my 70' ham radio tower and aimed it towards the ESB. The top of the antenna is 72 feet above ground.

I live in Wantage township, NJ (Sussex county) and my location is 48.3 air miles from the ESB, according to Google Earth. Our reception path for NYC is 2edge diffraction, since we are blocked by the hills in the vernon valley. According to AntennaWeb we are a digital TV no-man's land except for religious broadcasters WTBY and WRNN.

I was quite surprised to be getting 70's on the BER meter on my TiVo Series 3 HD from the ESB stations in NYC, even though antennaweb doesn't even show those signals here, and TVFool shows them below -100dBm (average around -107dBm). My cable run is about 250ft, which will be shortened when I neaten up the cables. I was initially thinking about getting 75 ohm Andrew Heliax and using that, but IMO that is overkill. So I ended up using Commscope RG6 flooded a preamp. It's the 30dB antennacraft, but I feel I may end up homebrewing one with a lower noise figure or getting a CM7777.

Most of the NYC stations come in except for WNYW-DT and WNET-DT. Surprisingly the CM4228 works quite well for WNJB-DT even though it's on channel 8.

My next step is to try philly as I got channel 17 analog quite easily with another antenna (a POS lowe's philips yagi/corner reflector).

I do get some occasional dropouts so I may be ganging together another CM4228. Judging by the forum posts here I should be doing that soon as they are going to be making them in China now?

-Ryan (N2RJ)


raj2001,

If I want to do some testing on my own for cable runs and locating my antenna, what kind of signal meter do I need?



Thanks,

bashtonsj

The easiest and cheapest "meter" is a variable attenuator. You basically add attenuation to the antenna downlead until the picture dies. The signal strength is the total attentuation. Radio shack has sold them in the past; look for a discussion in the antenna or antenna making threads.
frank

If I want to do some testing on my own for cable runs and locating my antenna, what kind of signal meter do I need?
I have used the technique that fbov described and it works very well. I use a Channel Master 7270 attenuator that has 3, 6, & 12 dB switches for a total possible combination of 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, & 21 dB. Keep inserting more attenuation (no amp between antenna and attenuator) until your digital signal "falls off the cliff" and drops out. You should get freeze and tiles just before drop out as the signal gets weaker. The value of the attenuation is how much margin you have; more is better. The technique is further described in the Kelvin link at the bottom of my signature, which is how it is done in the UK. What we call OTA DTV, they know as DTT, Digital Terrestrial Television.

Another interesting experiment is to use the attenuator with a Zinwell ZAT-970A CECB, which has two signal bars: one for signal intensity and the other for signal quality (related to BER, bit error rate). You can keep the bars on screen if you use manual scan. I used two 3 ft. cables to set up the equipment behind the reflector screen of my 4-bay antenna to keep out of the field in front of the antenna. As you increase the attenuation the error correction system (FEC) struggles to keep up but finally gives up and the signal quality bar drops to 0%. I inserted a preamp to test a marginal signal: ch 13.1 on RF41, which measures below -20 dBmV signal level at my location. I saw the signal intensity come up, but the signal quality wasn't helped much. This demonstrates why a preamp helps analog signals more than digital, except for cable loss and a poor tuner. It also tells me that if I don't have a good quality signal coming out of the antenna, there is not much I can do to improve it, except to move the antenna to a better location and/or switch to a better antenna. The problem is usually that a preamp will amplify the signal AND the ambient noise, plus add a little noise of its own, which makes no improvement in the signal-to-noise ratio. A certain minimum ratio is needed to maintain a lock on a digital signal.

The factors that reduce signal quality and cause a higher BER are:

1. Improper signal level: A weak signal will cause a poor signal-to-noise ratio; a signal that is too strong can overload a tuner or preamp. A nearby FM transmitter can also cause overload, which would require an FM trap.
2. Reflections from multipath problems.
3. Impulse noise in the reception area.

Sencore says to keep the digital signal level between +15 dBmV and -15 dBmV:
www.sencore.com/uploads/files/AchieveGoodHDTV.pdf

I also have a Sadelco 719E signal level meter that I treated myself to when I retired. It has been very useful to compare antennas, aim antennas for peak signal, and find the best "hot spot" location for the antenna, which is not always where you think it will be. In my case, higher was not better. The 719E was designed for analog signals so it doesn't give the correct absolute value for digital signals, but it still gives useful comparisons. AntAltMike says he adds an 8dB correction factor to the reading on his Leader LF941 analog SLM when measuring a digital signal. The newer LF941D is designed for digital signals.

If I had some extra funds I would consider the Sadelco DisplayMax Jr 2000; it doesn't do BER but it has internal calibration and audio. I became interested in the ZAT-970A as an inexpensive way to get an idea of the BER.

Probably all that you would need is a meter that gives signal level in dBmV. The older meters were calibrated in microvolts.

See also the thread Looking to Buy a CATV Cable Signal Meter Device (my first post on that is #7):
www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14231551

So, bashton, you really have the right idea wanting to measure your signal and find the best location for your antenna. Go for it!

Thanks to you both!

bashtonsj

Yep, Rabbit, you're who I was thinking of ...

If I want to do some testing on my own for cable runs and locating my antenna, what kind of signal meter do I need?Ther are plenty of older 'analog' SLM's (Signal Level Meters) on e-bay for well under $200. Some as low as $50. Actually, there are digital meters (not for digital channels though) for around $250.

I just noticed the new models are now up on Warren Electronics: 4221HD (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221HD.htm), 4228HD (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228HD.htm). Both are listed as "coming soon" with no price information. The old 4228 (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm) is still in stock but it looks the 4221 (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm) is gone.

People living closer to Frys B&M may still be able to pick up CM4228 from the B&M store. I visted Frys store in Vegas (labor day weekend) and was surprised to see CM4228 with a price tag of $59 (IIRC) instore. They were also selling antenna mounts, some channel master pre-amp (don't remember the model number). They also had a whole bunch of CECB (Airlink) in stock. I feel, RS, CC, BB should start selling these 2-bay/4-bay/8-bay bowtie design antennas more than those crappy overpriced antennas now that the switchover date is nearing.

Anyone know if the aluminum siding on my house will interfere with reception if its behind my CM4228? All the stations of interest near my house are in exactly the same direction and it would be very easy to point the CM4228 at them by mounting it below the eaves on the 2nd story of my house. This would put the aluminum soffits and siding out of the line of sight to the antenna but relatively close to the antenna ( < 1ft). It this going to be a problem such that I maybe need to put the antenna on a pole above the roof line ?

Anyone know if the aluminum siding on my house will interfere with reception if its behind my CM4228? All the stations of interest near my house are in exactly the same direction and it would be very easy to point the CM4228 at them by mounting it below the eaves on the 2nd story of my house. This would put the aluminum soffits and siding out of the line of sight to the antenna but relatively close to the antenna ( < 1ft). It this going to be a problem such that I maybe need to put the antenna on a pole above the roof line ?
Yes, placing a second reflector behind the CM-4228 will affect the antenna.
On some freqs it may improve and on others may reduce gain. Hence YMMV.

Higher is better anyway....you'll just have to try it to see if you have enough signal.

I experienced a similar effect sniffing for signals 70+ miles (and a mountain pass)
away. When I mounted a 4-Bay against a brick wall the signal vanished and
returned only when I moved it a couple yards away. Did I say YMMV???

Here's an App. Note for Potomac Inst. FIM-71 and FIM-72 Signal Level Meters (NTSC)
discussing how to derive a correction for DTV measurement (12 dB):
http://www.pi-usa.com/pdf/dtva.pdf

Your meter may have a different correction, depending on measurement bandwidth, etc.

Due to their size, you may have to ASK Frys to retrieve a CM-4228 from their storage area.

It this going to be a problem such that I maybe need to put the antenna on a pole above the roof line ?

I'd generally suggest going above the roof line. I recently was in a similar situation after a late fall move to a new house. I mounted my CM 4228 on the back porch roof, and the siding of the second floor was behind the antenna.

About a month and a half ago I mounted it against the side of the house and slightly above the roof line (rough 15' or so higher). Several channels improved in stability and a number of weaker signals that came in with tropo appeared much more often (from something to the order of once every two weeks to just about every night).

While not a radical improvement (I live in western PA, which means lots of hills) I felt the stability improvements alone were more than worth it.

I'm in central Kansas (flat lands) and with the 4228 an 7777 on 125' of cable I'm able to get all of the Wichita stations 90 miles to the south EXCEPT Fox is not reliable. There is a fox station only about 20 miles away but it is 135 degrees away from the Wichita stations. Currently the antenna gets the station with a LOT of ghosts.

I thought that I had read that the chicken wire mesh behind the 4228 was to keep signals from the back side from getting to the antenna. My thought is if that IS the case then I could cut off a couple rows of mesh and let the first row of bow ties pick up the signal from the back. There are no other stations to the north that would cause problems.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. Thanks

I'm in central Kansas (flat lands) and with the 4228 an 7777 on 125' of cable I'm able to get all of the Wichita stations 90 miles to the south EXCEPT Fox is not reliable. There is a fox station only about 20 miles away but it is 135 degrees away from the Wichita stations.

I thought that I had read that the chicken wire mesh behind the 4228 was to keep signals from the back side from getting to the antenna. My thought is if that IS the case then I could cut off a couple rows of mesh and let the first row of bow ties pick up the signal from the back. There are no other stations to the north that would cause problems.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. ThanksI have removed the 4228 screens to make mine bi-directional for VHF/UHF stations in two directions. See pic here (http://i17.tinypic.com/2pqm83b.jpg). My stations are closer to 180° opposite directions and the farthest station I get is only ~70+ miles away. So it may or may not work in your situation. But it's simple to remove/replace the screens, and definitely worth a try. You may lose some gain when you do this.

I came across this link from a Canadian forum regarding the 'new' imported '4228HD';
http://www.digitek.tv/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypageDIGI&product_id=121&category_id=55&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

Though these are speced for Austraila, the reported gain is 13-15 db and F/B ratio is 24db.
Also notice the other models. Most are familar. ;)

That first link is of the new Channel Master line. So, they just are repackaging somebody elses antenna. Typical.You guessed it - here's what I found regarding the CM4228HD and DigiTek's PA4 antenna sold from Australia:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=95467

Someone is following me around.......... ;)

Naw, I've just been north of the border most of the time so I thought I'd drop in again. ;)

The 4228HD is now available here (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228HD.htm), and at other online sites.

I paid $50 for my orginal US made 4228 3 years ago. Now for a cheap Chineese import, it's $65. :mad:

Does anyone have the datasheet for the CM 4228 - the one that shows the gain at different frequency bands? I would like to compare the specs vs. the "new and improved" versions.

Does anyone have the datasheet for the CM 4228 - the one that shows the gain at different frequency bands? I would like to compare the specs vs. the "new and improved" versions.Only info I have is:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

C-M antenna specs are still on the StarkElectronic website:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg2.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg4.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg5.htm

Thanks.

I did several searches and even checked stark but missed that. :)

BTW, I was also looking to possibly buy one but there seem to be none to be had, including eBay.

Anyone tested the new model yet?

Anyone tested the new model yet?

Nope ... but it looks like a case of "let's use cheaper parts and charge 1.5 times as much as the original." .... meh, Pass. I'm glad I got the real deal a few years ago.

Nope ... but it looks like a case of "let's use cheaper parts and charge 1.5 times as much as the original." .... meh, Pass. I'm glad I got the real deal a few years ago.Agreed. Still, I'd like to see someone test/compare this thing and post results like this (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html).

FIRST, someone has to post some ACCURATE measurements and hi-rez PHOTOS.

Well, I was just going to ask about these redesigns. I was looking to upgrade to the 4228 over the 4221 to fix a particularly pesky local station. But I guess I'll wait until some feedback comes in on the new design.

I have a ClearStream 4 (C4) from Antennas Direct which performs very well considering its size but I was looking for something more and bought the new CM4228-HD from Channel Master after reading reviews of the CM4228. Very disappointing. Despite being a much larger 8 bowtie design it got about 10 to 15 % less signal strength across the board and 7 less channels picked up. No improvement over the ClearStream 4 on VHF-HI either. I played around with it for about a week and that was the best I could get from it. It's also poorly constructed compared to the ClearStream 4. The only good thing about it was that is ships pretty much fully assembled.

I'm sorry to hear about your disappointing results with the "new" 4228.
It appears that Channel Master took a good thing. And ruined it.

after reading reviews of the CM4228These were reviews of the orginal 4228, not the 4228HD import, correct?

That "Clear Stream" is that new odd looking antenna with those discs?

These were reviews of the orginal 4228, not the 4228HD import, correct?

That "Clear Stream" is that new odd looking antenna with those discs?What's the purpose of those discs, anyway (other than to look unconventional)? Are they metal or pieces of plastic?

These were reviews of the orginal 4228, not the 4228HD import, correct?

That "Clear Stream" is that new odd looking antenna with those discs?

Yes, I bought it based on reviews of the original CM4228. I have not seen any reviews of the CM4228HD yet. New it may be but improved I guess not... I never had the original. The ClearStream 4 is the one with the plastic disks that look like the number eight or eighty-eight in this case.

What's the purpose of those discs, anyway (other than to look unconventional)? Are they metal or pieces of plastic?

I think there are tapered metal loops inside them.

Yes, I bought it based on reviews of the original CM4228.Just what CM is hoping for. Selling a cheap, imported POS from China for more $$ on the past reputation of a similar product. Just as taking/buying a name from 30 or 40 years ago and using it to sell junk from China, then going bankrupt. Namely, Polaroid for starters;
http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/19/polaroid-files-for-chapter-11-bankruptcy-again/

What's the purpose of those discs, anyway (other than to look unconventional)? Are they metal or pieces of plastic?

Enclosed is the picture of the double broadband loop antenna that I made for less than dollar bill (used two 40 cent throw away type cookie sheets). The outside diameter is 8" and the inside diameter is 5". The double loop easily cut using a box cutter knife. No balun needed.

The construction (using such thin sheet) limits this antenna to indoor use....however, receives all local Boston stations (30 miles away) plus another 8 or so stations located in Worcester MA and southern NH (50 miles away).

See post # 1519 at:

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613&st=1500

...See post # 1519 at:

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613&st=1500Link returned an error.

The link is good.

For some reason, viewing that topic as a guest is no longer possible and registration (which is free) is required. Think it was because DIY antenna topic was to big (64 pages now) and successful.

The site is a hi-tech DIY playground.

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/

The antenna topic was originally started in the 'Mad Science' section.

There is a link to register at the bottom of the page.

I ended up registering and dug around until I found the thread. Interesting.

Wow.... This forum is great! I would like to thank everyone for all of their input.

I live in Leesburg, VA and I installed an Antennas Direct DB8 Antenna a month ago. I was able to get 36 channels with the antenna in a bedroom window and 30 channels with the antenna mounted beside the gutter on my roof. Some of the channels are, 4-1, 4-2, 4-3 (NBC), 5-1 (Fox), 7-1, 7-2, 7-3 (ABC), 9-1 (CBS), 14-1, 20-1, 26-1 (WETA), and several more. I was able to get 30-1 to 30-6 while the antenna was in the window but I don't get them with the roof mount.

I might be using about 75 - 100 feet of cable but I am going to split it for multiple TV's. So, I purchased a CM7777.

I am also using an old HD Direct TV receiver as my tuner.

Since I am getting the CM7777 (amplifier) and I will have to climb the ladder again, I would like to have a signal meter with me on the roof, so I can adjust the antenna without asking a neighbor watch my meter on the tv screen while yelling the strength to me. So, I googled and found this forum!

I found a DIGIAIR PRO Off-Air TV Signal Meter but I don't want to pay $125 for a used one. Is there another meter that will do the same thing? I discovered what an attenuator is but I can still use my HD tuner as a meter, but I want something portable.

The next question is for my mom (Which antenna should I buy). My mom lives in Western Maryland between Frostburg and Grantsville MD. She currently gets, 2 (CBS), 4 (ABC), 6 (NBC), 8 (FOX). 2 and 4 Pittsburgh stations and 6 is Johnstown, PA. I am not sure about channel 8.

The current antenna has been destroyed from the wind (40 mph+) and tree branches. I don't recall the exact details but there is a small black box on the antenna mast and there is another box that I assume is a boaster from the 70's plugged in to a wall outlet with an RG6 input and output. The TV picture goes out when I unplug this box.

tvfool dot com has this info for my mom... I don't know the meaning of -dbm.

i69.photobucket.com/albums/i60/kevyt/mom1.png

channel | miles | degrees
-------------------------
2 | 78 | 318
4 | 59 | 316
6 | 49 | 13
8 | 36 | 350

I should probably aim the antenna at 344.5 degrees?
To find the mid point.
360 - 316 = 44
44 + 13 (degrees from 360) = 57
57 / 2 = 28.5
316 - 28.5 = 344.5 degrees

Should I get my mom a DB8 that is suppose to reach 70 miles or a Winegard HD 8200U that is suppose to reach 100 miles? She lives around a LOT of hills and there are mountains between her and Pittsburgh. We have always used the big antennas without a great picture and I don't know if a small one like my DB8 will be sufficient.

She will have about 40 feet of cable with one TV.

Since she does not get any channels when I disconnect the 30 year old boaster, I assume that I should also get one of those. Is there one that you recommend?

---
Is there an inexpensive signal meter that I can purchase to use for myself and my mom? Which antenna should I get for Mom? Which boaster should I get for Mom? From what I have read, the CM7777 wont help her.

Thanks,
Kevin

Welcome to the forum, AVS_Kev.

It would be better if you posted your local antenna questions in the specific thread for the town your mom lives in. Those threads are located here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241

I found a DIGIAIR PRO Off-Air TV Signal Meter but I don't want to pay $125 for a used one. Is there another meter that will do the same thing? $125 for a SLM is cheap. Most SLM's start at $500, many are over $2,000 depending on if it is a digital reading meter or not.
You can find old analog/analog SLM's on e-bay for around $50, (analog dial and analog signal reading) but they won't read digital signals correctly.

I have seen 'digital' reading SLM's go for as low as $200, but that is a hit or miss situation. Recent digital readout analog reading SLM's can be had for around $150. They are ok for analog stations but reading they show will be anywhere between 8 and 15 dbmV less that the actual level.
The cheapest, decent digital SLM is the "Sadelco DisplayMax 800" which is easily found.

AFAIC, the best bang for the buck is this; item#150321975089. There is a steep learning curve, but considering this orginally sold for $2500, you can't beat this with a stick. ;) Full digital capibility (OTA and CATV), custom channel tables, PC interface with software for editing tables, field strength meter and a Spectrum Analyzer (for starters).

BTW, many meters do NOT have OTA capability. They only have CATV channel tables.

To answer your reception question, my search turns up this;
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=39%2E115662&longitude=%2D77%2E563602&magnetic_north=%2D10&range=90&sort=distance&show_expired=True&show_construction=True&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

Plenty of stations to receive between 25 and 50 miles from your location. Further if you can get them.

Thanks for all of the help. Ebay has a Prolink 1B Signal meter item# 300288967307 but Prolink's website states that the 1B is for CATV.

Ebay also has a LPT-1250 Spectrum Analyzer Item# 370148262192 but that might be more than what I need. It might be nice to learn with.

I am assuming that a Spectrum Analyzer will show several frequencies at once and then I could move the antenna according the the height of the lines on the monitor?

I have more questions but I need to find the right thread to post the questions.

I am very new at this (2 days new).

Thanks,
Kevin

1. Promax is out of Spain sold mainly to the European market. Test Equipment Depot appears to be the main US distributor.
2. The specs show 46-870 MHz on the 1st page, but 48-870 MHz on the last page which are the European assignments.
3. That model orginally came out in 1999. The 'C' version is current ($745).
4. There is optional software to edit the channel plans for the current model ($265)
5. You would have to confirm that this has the US OTA channel plan,
6. It appears that the mode for each channel (analog/digital) can be changed within the unit.Channel mode:
Up to 7 channel plans, each one with 126 channels max.
Channel plan configurable on demand (OPT-101-61).

The last is a stickler with what appears to be a common short coming with many of these SLM's as most are designed for CATV only. Assuming it does have the US channel plan, you have to manually change each channel from analog to digital for it to read correctly. Usually done with the optional software, but with this, it is done within the device.

Spectrum Analyzers are mainly for looking at the shape of the signal, not for just for obtaining a figure like a SLM would do. If you are just looking for a number, a SA isn't what you would use. Besides, there is a slight price difference. ;)

1. Promax is out of Spain sold mainly to the European market. Test Equipment Depot appears to be the main US distributor.
2. The specs show 46-870 MHz on the 1st page, but 48-870 MHz on the last page which are the European assignments.
3. That model orginally came out in 1999. The 'C' version is current ($745).
4. There is optional software to edit the channel plans for the current model ($265)
5. You would have to confirm that this has the US OTA channel plan,
6. It appears that the mode for each channel (analog/digital) can be changed within the unit.

The last is a stickler with what appears to be a common short coming with many of these SLM's as most are designed for CATV only. Assuming it does have the US channel plan, you have to manually change each channel from analog to digital for it to read correctly. Usually done with the optional software, but with this, it is done within the device.

Spectrum Analyzers are mainly for looking at the shape of the signal, not for just for obtaining a figure like a SLM would do. If you are just looking for a number, a SA isn't what you would use. Besides, there is a slight price difference. ;)

videobruce,

Thanks!

More Americans needs to learn about this! Who needs cable :)

Kevin

Regarding that Promax unit, that sellers Buy it now price is $250. I doubt he would settle for less than $200.
For another $100, you could probably get a Tektronix RFM151 if you wait for one to show.

There is a SADELCO DISPLAYMAX 800 CLI - Item # 270333260296 with a current bid of $104.

Kevin

This is kinda OT, PM me.

channel 7 reception with a 4228

KABC-DT is running a test broadcast of DTV on VHF channel 7, and my 4228 in the attic is picking up this VHF-lo signal OK. The KWorld PCI tuner is reporting a signal strength of 78%, compared to about 94% for KABC-DT on UHF 53. These numbers probably don't mean much: the "strength meter" is not calibrated, may not be linear, and I don't know what the transmit power is.

KABC-DT is running a test broadcast of DTV on VHF channel 7, and my 4228 in the attic is picking up this VHF-lo signal OK.Chs 2 thru 6 are VHF Lowband. Channel 7 is in Highband VHF.

Is your 4228 the new style or old?

Hi there

You're right, 7 is VHF-hi. I knew that, but it was late. Learned about the 3 TV bands when I setup my first VCR that had a varactor tuner.

The 4228 is about 1.5 years old.

Regards

Just what CM is hoping for. Selling a cheap, imported POS from China for more $$ on the past reputation of a similar product. Just as taking/buying a name from 30 or 40 years ago and using it to sell junk from China, then going bankrupt. Namely, Polaroid for starters;
http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/19/polaroid-files-for-chapter-11-bankruptcy-again/

There are many others, too, unfortunately.

Hi there

You're right, 7 is VHF-hi. I knew that, but it was late. Learned about the 3 TV bands when I setup my first VCR that had a varactor tuner.

The 4228 is about 1.5 years old.

RegardsThe old 4228 works fairly well for highband VHF. Although it works on some high VHFs better than others. The new 4228 is supposed to also work well for that band, but there are other antennas priced about the same or less, that have more gain in both VHF-HI and UHF.

Until I hear some earth shattering reviews of the new 4228, I'll just assume it's a cheap chinese import being sold as something it's not.

Down with the Chinese Made Channel Master HD series antennas!

Bring back the originals!

It looks like the Chinese Made Antennas Direct DB series antennas have better reflectors and better thicker aluminum whiskers than the new Chinese Made Channel Master HD series. Id recommend them over the new Channel Dissaster models.

I refuse to buy anything from AntennasDirect. They have too much bad information about their antennas on their web site.

Looks like you are down to Winegard or bust.

Maybe Wade, Jerold, Funke, if you look hard.

The old 4228 works fairly well for highband VHF. Although it works on some high VHFs better than others.

Hi there

Yes, I've seen the swooping plots for VHF-hi gain.
Back in post #64 of this thread, I reported the VHF reception of this antenna setup in the attic for analog TV. The 4228 was able to receive two VHF-lo stations, but really noisy. Analog channel 7 wasn't very good and was the worst of the VHF-hi, so this digital test last night was reassuring that I don't need a VHF antenna.


> but there are other antennas priced about the same or less,
> that have more gain in both VHF-HI and UHF.

But I only paid $50 plus tax for this 4228 when it was on sale at Fry's.

Regards

Hi there

Yes, I've seen the swooping plots for VHF-hi gain.
Back in post #64 of this thread, I reported the VHF reception of this antenna setup in the attic for analog TV. The 4228 was able to receive two VHF-lo stations, but really noisy. Analog channel 7 wasn't very good and was the worst of the VHF-hi, so this digital test last night was reassuring that I don't need a VHF antenna.


> but there are other antennas priced about the same or less,
> that have more gain in both VHF-HI and UHF.

But I only paid $50 plus tax for this 4228 when it was on sale at Fry's.

RegardsReferring to the new 4228. Price was jacked up when the new chinese import 4228 became available.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

Looks like you are down to Winegard or bust.

Maybe Wade, Jerold, Funke, if you look hard.

AntennaCraft which I used to consider the low end of the totem pole looks really good compared to the junk now put out by AntennasDirect and the new Chinese Channel Master.

All I buy or suggest anymore are the Winegard and AntennaCraft. There are two exceptions.

Radio Shack (don't laugh) U-75R (we use a lot of them here in Gainesville FL DMA with excellent results.

AntennasDirect (don't puke) 91XG

------

Interesting enough though I was a big CM and still a Winegard fan, the system people are finding works here in Gainesville is a RS U-75R and an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 into a Pico Macom UVSJ and no amp. We don't have a central antenna farm, and the VHF if very very weak.

--------

Back to on topic. Now that the HD4228 has been proven the junk suspected, how do the AntennaCraft and Winegard 8 bays compare? Ken over at hdtvprimer.com had never reviewed either of those antennas. But with (at least to me) the HD4228 and the DB8 junk, (leaving out building) the only commercial equivalents are the U8000 and the HD8800. But there is very little data outside the manufacturers for these products I have found.

Interesting enough though I was a big CM and still a Winegard fan, the system people are finding works here in Gainesville is a RS U-75R and an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 into a Pico Macom UVSJ and no amp. We don't have a central antenna farm, and the VHF if very very weak.For UHF-only, the U75 is great for the money. I've had good results with Winegard HD7694P antennas, and now use them instead of the 4228. But the old 4228 was perfect around here because we have two markets about 180 off axis. It worked great with the screen removed (even for VHF Hi stations 9, 10 & 13).

I don't have any experience w/ other 8bays.

I wish someone would do a field test on the U-75R. I have found one set of specs that says it has 7.9 decibles of gain, and another that says it had 9.5 - I use this antenna and have excellent reception at just over 60 miles from a 1,800 ft tower.

So the new CM is only better if you modify it. That stinks. I wouldn't buy it like that. Piece of junk.

I wish someone would do a field test on the U-75R. I have found one set of specs that says it has 7.9 decibles of gain, and another that says it had 9.5 - I use this antenna and have excellent reception at just over 60 miles from a 1,800 ft tower.

It's essentially equivalent to the UHF part of the RS VR-90x (not sure about the exact part #) ... it's the 80" boom VHF/UHF combo, which has been modeled/test at HDTVPrimer.com.

It's OK outdoors, but no match for the original CM4221 (4-bay.)

I had the VR-90X, and it was not near as effective at UHF as the U-75R alone. In a Thunderstorm, the wind tore it all to pieces. When I bought it, I only paid $25 for it, now it is $70.00 I believe. That is a rip off because in a wind storm, it will break.

...It's OK outdoors, but no match for the original CM4221 (4-bay.)Emphasis on the word "original." The original 4221 was fantastic. Unfortunately, it had no 7-13 gain to speak of.

I had the VR-90X, and it was not near as effective at UHF as the U-75R alone. In a Thunderstorm, the wind tore it all to pieces. When I bought it, I only paid $25 for it, now it is $70.00 I believe. That is a rip off because in a wind storm, it will break.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some coupling issues with the VR-90X. But, there's no question that if you just cut the UHF section off of it, you have a U-75. :)

I checked HD Primer. They only tested the VU-90XR up to channel 13, and no test for the UHF only antennacraft models. They should even it up and do a few of these.

I also see Radio Shack has a nice looking high band and UHF combination antenna now.

I checked HD Primer. They only tested the VU-90XR up to channel 13,

Yep ... I was just about to post a correction ... sorry about that.

The verdict on the U-75 ... expect better performance than the RS Double-Bow, but less than the original CM4221 ... as long as it's mounted outside. You should be able to guestimate a gain figure/range from those bounds. ... somewhere between 5 and 7dBd would be my guess.

Here is mine. It's up near 26 or so ft.

I am little confused about whether the new CM4228HD is applicable on VHF-Hi or not ? Because their Product Page (http://www.channelmasterintl.com/terr/EXTREMEtenna.html) says it has a reception range of 45 miles for Ch 7 thru 13, but their Antenna Selection Guide (http://www.channelmasterintl.com/documentation/Channel%20Master%20Antenna%20Selection%20Guide%20(from%20cat alog).pdf) says the opposite. It lists the antenna under "UHF only" and says "N/A" under VHF-hi. So what should I believe ? Which of the two is correct ??

called CM - the 'antenna sel guide/ref chart' is incorrect. I was told the VHF-hi gain is in the range of ~4-5db.

The 4228HD is a cheaply made antenna for channels 7 thru 69. (VHF-HI & UHF)

called CM - the 'antenna sel guide/ref chart' is incorrect. I was told the VHF-hi gain is in the range of ~4-5db.A better made 7-69 antenna for less money:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HD7694P

A better made 7-69 antenna for less money:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HD7694P

I like the recommend the Winegard above or if someone is in a fringe 7696P is also a good antenna. I don't know anyone that bought the really big brother the 7698P, but it's a monster in size, but is it worth the extra money.

AntennaCraft is not known for rugged construction, but someone in an attic or low antenna not in ice or snow, the HBU22 works pretty darn good for near fringe on 7-13.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HBU22

If anyone has one of the old 4228's on the ground or where they can measure could you do me a huge favor.

I have (2) old 4221As. I want to build a bracket to put them side by side like the old 4228.

I need to know how far apart the center of the bowties are on one side of the old 4228 to the other. This way I know how far apart to put my 4221 apart from each other.

Thanks in advance.

If anyone has one of the old 4228's on the ground or where they can measure could you do me a huge favor.

I have (2) old 4221As. I want to build a bracket to put them side by side like the old 4228.

I need to know how far apart the center of the bowties are on one side of the old 4228 to the other. This way I know how far apart to put my 4221 apart from each other.

Thanks in advance.

I measure it as 20.125 inches center-to-center.

AntennaCraft which I used to consider the low end of the totem pole looks really good compared to the junk now put out by AntennasDirect and the new Chinese Channel Master.

...Now that the HD4228 has been proven the junk suspected, how do the AntennaCraft and Winegard 8 bays compare? Ken over at hdtvprimer.com had never reviewed either of those antennas. But with (at least to me) the HD4228 and the DB8 junk, (leaving out building) the only commercial equivalents are the U8000 and the HD8800. But there is very little data outside the manufacturers for these products I have found.I have seen no reviews or tests of the Antennacraft U8000 (http://www.electotronics.com/antennacraftu8000uhfhdtvantennaforextremedeepfringeareas-35boom405width36vhght.aspx). If someone has experience with it or links to tests, please post. Thanks