http://www.infocus.com/Products/Projectors/X10.aspx

Haven't seen this here yet. Distributor doesn't know anything as of yet. Seems like it was posted early!

This new projector from Infocus should render a beautiful picture, I have a 7205. The major problem is fan/wheel noise. This new projector has a 30db. Not much lower then the 7205, which is 33db. Very distracting during low speaking passages of a movie. Sounds like a " jet engine".

A Darkchip 1? Is that any good? What's the price?

This must be their under $3k DLP. Interesting that they are using an Iris. I have no clue what they mean by Darkchip 1. I can't imagine they are using 4 year old technology. I am guessing this is a typo and they meant Darkchip 2.

Wierd name too. Shouldn't it be the IN80?

MSRP is $2299

If I'm permitted to ask, can anyone impute a street price?

Looks like a SP4805 of it's time for 1080P. Probably get it in the $1500 range with-in a 90-180 day time frame. The DarkChip1 if not a tIpo could be to the 1080P chips made around 7 years ago but where never release because they controlled the market at 720P and the 1080P hand is now forced. I'm not saying thats the case but Texas Instruments was able to make a 1080P long before now they could do it going back about 8-9 years. Probably will be a Killer Image for the money, and yes, they need to work on the fan sound at this stage of the game.

I can tell you you will NOT find it for $1500. I know the margin on this one and it's thin.

Yikes...it really is using the Dark Chip 1. I'll pass.

looked like there was only one hdmi input, not good if true.

looked like there was only one hdmi input, not good if true.

Good for me if true, I only have one HDMI cable ran to my current projector.

Come on Infocus. Dump some DC2 720p chips into old IN72 cases and make a mass appeal, affordable 720p unit for sub-$900.

It does say "x series" on the PDF. It could happen. I for one haven't heard anything like that though.

Oh, ant it does have the M1-DA which can be used as an HDMI. They generally include the adaptor as well.

DarkChip1. 1080P. Sounds like an April Fool's day joke to me...

But it would be nice if true and cheap.

Jim

Oh, ant it does have the M1-DA which can be used as an HDMI. They generally include the adaptor as well.


3.5 yrs ago my 1st pj was an x-1 and i had to buy m1 adaptor extra.
when i realized the pj was not hd like j&r mistakenly told me it was, i returned it to them in nyc. and got a panny hd pj.

still have the adaptor.

Come on Infocus. Dump some DC2 720p chips into old IN72 cases and make a mass appeal, affordable 720p unit for sub-$900.

Except for the price, what you discribed was the IN76...

Yikes...it really is using the Dark Chip 1. I'll pass.

Why is that?

Why is that?

Aaaah, because contrast is awful. Besides that it's great.

DarkChip1. 1080P. Sounds like an April Fool's day joke to me...

I may have been wrong. Apparently the BenQ W5000, a very decent 1080p projector, also uses the DarkChip1.

Jim

I may have been wrong. Apparently the BenQ W5000, a very decent 1080p projector, also uses the DarkChip1.

Jim

The W5000 uses a DC2 chip.

A DC1 1080P allows for DC4 1080P to sell for $5000+, I'd be shocked if it was a DC1 just because it seems so odd, but if you ever looked at a X1 about 800:1 contrast when calibrated you'll know it more than capable if the true contrast is 2500:1 @ 6500K. They have 3 other 1080Ps in this case design and this seems like the lower performing of all so they can keep the price up on the others. At 2500:1 @ 1200 calibrated lumens(if thats the case) it'll throw a damn nice image. However if Epson goes to the HC720UB late this year, their going to need more than a sub $2K 1080P DLP to compete. I'd be shocked if its DC1 but I'd see it in person for sure before I'd judge it. I wish Image offset was less also 136%, I wouldn't give $2K for it but if it does make the $1500 which some 1080P LCD are headed I definitely would, same old Infocus though large offset, loud fan, M1(Actually not a bad thing) it does have a auto-iris so thats very nice as long as you can't hear it, and also as a plus it'll have a Infocus image which they do pretty well. I also like the RGBRGBG color wheel, It'll allow for brilant color during HDTV to brighten the image without out going crazy on the whites.

Oh, ant it does have the M1-DA which can be used as an HDMI. They generally include the adaptor as well.

yeah right! since when is Infocus including the M1-DA adaptor?
They sell their M1-DA adaptor or cable for ridiculously high price
when I could get the same at monoprice for much less.

I had some issues with the M1-DA on my IN72. I dont want
to waste my time talking about it. I just done bother to use it on my IN72
Give me 2 HDMI and for any firmware updates put an USB.
Hell with the M1-DA crap.

The geniuses at Infocus still have not figured out a way to make
a quiet projector?

Didnt they learn anything from IN72/IN76 at all?

Just use the same IN72 body and stick in a 720p chip.

Except for the price, what you discribed was the IN76...

yeah, but why would anyone pay some $2000 for 720p unit now
when there are units like HC1500. I even wonder if Infocus is
making any money on IN76. If they released an "IN72" packaged
with a 720p chip it would sell like hot cakes again.
Why waste time on a new chasis when they already have a
perfect one? I just dont get it.

One could get 72XX for $1000 but it sounds like a jet engine.
Even if someone offered it to me for free I wont take the 72xx

Infocus is no longer the value leader they use to be. Thats OK if you hit on all the other big issues, like fan noise, reasonable cost of replacement lamps, and multiple inputs all of which they seem to be stuck in 2004. Weird.

The W5000 uses a DC2 chip.

That's what you would think. However in another thread, Lawguy posted this from BenQ's site: (translated from Chinese)

On top of the audio-visual enjoyment of people, BenQ W5000, W20000 worth looking forward to, as they balance Super BenQ engineers ideal price performance and after research and development of new products, physics resolution supporting 1920 × 1080 Full HD full HD standard (W5000 selected TI DarkChip1 DMD 1080p chip, W20000 use more high-end DarkChip3 DMD 1080p chips), with 16:9 gold widescreen ratio screen, ultra-meticulous details of performance of the screen, and 1200 ANSI lumens brightness, as well as ultra-high contrast ratio (W5000 contrast ratio of 10000:1, W20000 contrast ratio of 20000:1), the sharp clear picture. 随着W20000的诞生，又将刷新全球最高对比度 DLP 家用投影机的纪录！ With W20000 the birth of the world's highest contrast ratio will refresh DLP projector home record! HQV™（Hollywood Quality Video）芯片的加入和针对动态画面的优化技术（Motion-adaptive de-interlacing）让W5000和W20000能够展现出足以媲美顶级影院的画面效果，而电动Lens Shift功能则让它们能适应更多投影环境的需要，包括HDMI在内的众多视频输入接口不仅方便与家里各种视频源设备相连接，也 为未来的Blu-Ray和HD DVD留下充足的升级空间，无论规格还是效果，它们都是为追求极致视觉效果的高清发烧友所准备的独门利器。 HQV ™ (Hollywood Quality Video) chip accession and the optimization for dynamic screen technology (Motion-adaptive de-interlacing) to W5000 and W20000 can show comparable to the top theater screen effects, and electric Lens Shift function so that they can adapt to the environment needs more projection, HDMI, including numerous video input interface not only with the convenience of home video source equipment connected, but also for the future of Blu-Ray and HD DVD upgrade leave adequate space, regardless of specifications or effect, and they are the ultimate visual effects for the sake of the high-definition enthusiasts prepared by the unique weapon.

What's actually true? I have no idea. But the low rated 10,000:1 contrast (even with DynamicBlack iris enhancement) does seem to suggest that the W5000 might have a DC1.

Jim

I would think that a Darkchip 1 with dynamic iris might produce very excellent contrast.

I have a 7200 (now very obsolete) (no iris, obviously) and it performs very well in the contrast area.

In general, a lot of this has to do with how much ambient light you have for all projectors. Often, brightness is more of an issue that absolute contrast specs IMHO. [Of course this is a whole different discussion.]

I would think that a Darkchip 1 with dynamic iris might produce very excellent contrast.

I'm quite certain it would. It's just that with the contrast rating inflation we're seeing these days, 10,000:1 is relatively low. That's why it may be suggesting that it really is a DarkChip1. I'm sure that in viewing this projector, contrast would look very good indeed.

Jim

The W5000 uses a DC2 chip.
Just to add to BuffaloJim's posts about this, there's other evidence that the W5000 does indeed use the DC1. A simple search produced this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12824968&postcount=157
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12359349&postcount=100

Unfortunately nobody seems to know for sure, because unlike InFocus, and to their shame, BenQ is not sharing this info with us in their spec sheets. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the DC1 chip in the W5000 however. I'm sure TI is not making this new chip just for InFocus. Other mfgs will use it if they haven't already.

If the W5000 does use the DC1, how many current owners thought they were getting a DC2 projector? How many would have still considered it had they known it was DC1? Even if it does use the DC2, owners and potential buyers have the right to know exactly what they're getting without having to guess or assume. If nothing else, I give InFocus credit for making it clear.

I really don't like the whole idea of a DC1 however. There's absolutely no reason for TI to take a step backwards in contrast performance just to maintain 4(!) separate price points. Three levels is enough. Let DC2 be your budget chip.

yeah right! since when is Infocus including the M1-DA adaptor?

According to their spec sheets, all the InFocus 1080p models to date have included an M1 to HDMI adapter. It's unclear whether this new one will include one, since the link to the data sheet does not work.

EDIT: Just saw the working link to the data sheet posted by glennzippy above. Looks like the X10 does not include the M1-HDMI adapter like the other 1080p models.

Even if it does use the DC1 the contrast rating is much higher than that of the IN72 which is getting great reviews in this thread. This is probably due to the iris.

It will be interesting to see if the price on the IN76 drops when the X10 is released. Why not pay $300 more to get a brighter image with higher resolution and maybe even higher contrast with use of the iris on the X10?

If 1080p is already around the $2K point i can't wait for this holiday season to see how low it will go :)

According to their spec sheets, all the InFocus 1080p models to date have included an M1 to HDMI adapter. It's unclear whether this new one will include one, since the link to the data sheet does not work.

EDIT: Just saw the working link to the data sheet posted by glennzippy above. Looks like the X10 does not include the M1-HDMI adapter like the other 1080p models.

well if someone is paying some $3000 for a 1080p projector they better get the damn adaptor. I dont think Infocus can ask them to buy their overpriced adaptor for $50 or their M1-DA cable for over $100 when the customer has paid some $3000 for the projector.

It is ok not to give the adaptor for a sub $1000 projector as I can get the
M1-DA to HDMI cable for some 10 bucks. Anyway....

The infocus line is just ridiculous. Why do they have so many units over $2000 price range. What was the need to have this when they already have
IN81, IN82, IN83. Wouldnt it make more sence to try to capture the
low end like for example a sub $1000 720p unit? No wonder they are not
leading the projector market. With a marketing strategy like this how can any company be the market leader?

do you think this only has their usual 4x color wheel speed?

Even if it does use the DC1 the contrast rating is much higher than that of the IN72 which is getting great reviews in this thread. This is probably due to the iris.

True, but the contrast rating you refer to is on/off, and the shortcomings of the DC1 will also show up as poorer ANSI contrast performance than a DC2 projector. The iris can't help there.

Then again, going on the assumption the W5000 is DC1, the owners of that PJ seem more than pleased with its black level and contrast performance, so maybe my concern is more emotional in nature than anything.

I'm a big DLP fan, but I can understand why many people hate TI based on this. LCD and LCoS are constantly improving their product and moving forward. TI on the other hand, is evidently releasing a new DMD based on what everyone thought was extinct technology.

If they released an "IN72" packaged
with a 720p chip it would sell like hot cakes again.
Why waste time on a new chasis when they already have a
perfect one?

You're absolutely right. The InFocus IN72 is the best looking projector I've ever seen. I want to replace it with an HC1500, but my mother doesn't want me to sell the InFocus. I'm going to miss it, too. My friends say it looks like a Playstation 3.

Just because TI is calling this new low end DMD a "Darkchip1", that does not mean it performs at the same level as the original Darkchip1 in 2001/2002. The manufacturing process is completely different, as the mirror size has shrunk considerably along with other improvements, and the contrast is higher than any of the original DC1 projectors. This new Darkchip1 is likely the same as the current Darkchip2/3 chip minus a coating or something like that to allows higher yields and lower DMD cost.

DLP manufactures needed to be able to compete at the now low $2000 end of the 1080P market, and TI obliged them by creating a lower cost 1080P DMD. What is wrong with giving the consumer more choices? Mitsubishi has done the same thing with the 4900/5000/6000 1080P models.

Just 2 years ago, a single chip 1080P DC3 DLP was $20,000 with the Marantz 11S1. Then it was $10,000 with the Benq W10000. Now you can get the DC3 IN82 for less than $4000, or the even better performing DC4 IN83 for less than $5000 street. To say that DLP has not improved performance while lowering cost is just not true. Have the other technologies exceeded that rate of improvement, yes some have. But for those of us who still prefer the look of a good DLP over the LCOS or LCD models, the price/performance of the current offerings are MUCH better than just one year ago.

Aspect Ratio 16:9 (native), 4:3, 2.35:1 widescreen
(requires anamorphic lens, available separately)

Cool!

True, but the contrast rating you refer to is on/off, and the shortcomings of the DC1 will also show up as poorer ANSI contrast performance than a DC2 projector. The iris can't help there.
On/Off contrast is the most useless spec on any given sheet.

Looks like the pricing is starting to become available in some of the online stores. I wonder when they'll start to ship?

My 7200 just died, so I would like to hear facts/opinions from the brain trust about whether the X10 would be a good drop-in replacement. The only complaint that I had with the 7200 was fan noise. Of course, it's my sense that the value proposition may have changed considerably since I bought my 7200 many moons ago.

It's certainly not a bad price, but I would have liked to have seen it under 2 grand.

Jim

[QUOTE=dschmelzer;13754599] The only complaint that I had with the 7200 was fan noise.QUOTE]

I have used borrowed an IN82 and am waiting for my IN83 to ship next week (yessss!) They are way quieter than the SP7200 by far. If you have heard the IN7x series, it is the same. It's tied for the 2nd quietest projector InFocus has made.

On/Off contrast is the most useless spec on any given sheet.Not sure if you are dissing on/off CR or just specsmanship, but on/off CR is one of the most important things to images. How they get there is relevant (like native vs dynamic since that complicates things somewhat) and all specs that are basically false and don't indicate the truth are pretty much useless, but on/off CR is important. Over the years many people who haven't understood the subject matter have falsely thought that what mattered was CR in mixed images and this meant that on/off CR didn't matter, but they would have realized that this wasn't the case if they had understood the subject matter. Is your point more that false claims are useless, or that on/off CR is useless?

--Darin

We'll see if Infocus gets this right once it ships......seems nice but........

To answer a few things:
The M1 to HDMI adapter does ship in the box with the X10.
TI calls it DC1 but it is not the same DC1 from years past.
Sorry but I can't talk about future products but we have a few things in the hopper accross varying price levels.
Yes, we learned some things from the SP72XX series. One of which is the noise. The newer platforms are quieter.

Considering the X10 is InFocus' first use of a dynamic iris, I'm very interested to see how well it works. It's a little curious that the X10 has it, but none of the IN8x models do.

Ole - thx for joining the thread. :) Is there anything you can comment on regarding the DI on the X10?

+1

Thanks for joining the forums Ole;)

Does anybody have any solid information from InFocus that the X10 has an active iris (DynamicBlack) and not just a manual iris? The InFocus site seems to be having problems at the moment. I figured the X10 had a dynamic iris from the specs, but from what I can find on the IN83 from InFocus I think they are being fairly dishonest with its specs by rating on/off CR by measuring white with the projector setup one way and black with the projector setup a different way. This isn't the same as having a dynamic iris and now I'm wondering if they have decided to start using this kind of deception to rate their projectors by using white with a manual iris open and black with a manual iris closed when there is no way to actually set the projector into a mode that provides both, like a dynamic iris system does.

I have little doubt that this kind of dishonesty will be used by some to say that on/off CR doesn't matter and to discredit specs from all companies, but I figure if one person or company basically lies, I'm not going to paint every person or company with the brush the dishonest ones deserve. If InFocus is doing what I think they are, it just tells me I shouldn't trust what they say much at all in the future.

We shouldn't have to tell these companies that they can't change settings in the projector between the white measurement and the black measurement for on/off CR, or put anything in the light path (like filters) between the measurements. Dishonest ones would manually change the bulb from high to low, etc. if they got away with it.

--Darin

Does anybody have any solid information from InFocus that the X10 has an active iris (DynamicBlack) and not just a manual iris?
I think most people are basing their belief that the X10 uses a DI from quotes like this in the specsheet (attached to an earlier post in the thread):

"1200 Max ANSI Lumens combine with a native contrast ratio of 2500:1 to emit a stunning image right out of the box, and with the onboard active iris this contrast can be increased to 7500:1 with the simple push of a button."

The IN8x Projector specsheets never called their implementation an active iris. I see where you're going though, since the X10 is claiming 3x native CR with the use of a DI, and the In8x projectors are making the same 3x claim, but without the DI. It could be we're all wrong and the X10 doesn't use a DI, which would kinda make sense, since I would think they would want to use that technology in their higher end models as well.

The X10 nor the others have a dynamic iris. We have chosen not to use them to date because they can be tricked. For example, try watching a night scene with fireworks on a projector with DI.
It has a variable iris that stays at the setting where it is set up. It's great for having 2 settings for different viewing environments. The IN82 I have set up in my home has the iris wide open for watching sports during the day or when we have people over who want to see each other or what they are eating or drinking during a more social environment. For night time or watching movies I have another setting where it is more closed.
We state 2 contrast ratios. One that is at the calibrated settings and one that is not (the same way most everyone else does it). We used to only state the calibrated contrast but we constantly were asked why our stated contrast was so much lower than everyone else's (jacked up number). So now we list both. If you read old reviews, our measured contrast would often be on the higher end of the scale vs other products despite those products often having 2X or more higher contrast listed.
ANSI is the best comparison as it sets a standard for how it has to be measured. A number of the reviewers do ANSI CR measurements.
The statement JeffKB quoted should be altered as it is misleading. I'll contact marketing to have changes made.

We state 2 contrast ratios. One that is at the calibrated settings and one that is not (the same way most everyone else does it).Doesn't sound like that is what you are doing. Sounds like you guys are cheating and measuring white with one setting, then changing something in the projector and measuring black with a different setting. That is different than stating a number that isn't D65 calibrated. If you are using white from one mode and black from a different mode that is obviously cheating. As I have said, companies shouldn't need to be told that they can't change things in the projector, or the path from the projector to the meter, between the white and black measurements for on/off CR.

Or are you saying that the 15k:1 stated for the IN83 is for unbalanced colors (uncalibrated) and with something like BrilliantColor? If that was the case, why does it mention the iris?

Is there any mode for the IN83 (even uncalibrated) where you can get even to the ballpark of 15k:1 on/off CR (say over 10k:1). Or the ballpark of 7500:1 in one mode for the X10?

--Darin

Ole Dame, you're vendors, (Proj. People for example) are directly stating that it has a dynamic iris - it would behoove infocus to get on the ball with this immediately. As other manufacturers have found out, stating significant features that do not in fact exist has become very costly in the long run. I was a fond x1 user so I do like infocus, but that sort of flawed marketing has cost companies with much greater customer loyalty (apple.)

As far as the thin margins someone mentioned - if a 1080p pj with lens shift, a wide zoom lens, and a number of other features that this pj doesn't have, can sell for $1400, either someone is misinformed or TI is committed to this death spiral they created by over-pricing their dlp chips. With the death of rear projection TI's only hope of keeping this cash cow going was the growth of FP yet they gouged away for years. Of course, it's possible that their yields are so poor that they can't sell cheap dlp chips but the cost of the base 720p dlps makes that unlikely.

hope this thread doesn't turn into a witch hunt, but i am curious about it as well...

Doesn't sound like that is what you are doing. Sounds like you guys are cheating and measuring white with one setting, then changing something in the projector and measuring black with a different setting. That is different than stating a number that isn't D65 calibrated. If you are using white from one mode and black from a different mode that is obviously cheating. As I have said, companies shouldn't need to be told that they can't change things in the projector, or the path from the projector to the meter, between the white and black measurements for on/off CR.

Or are you saying that the 15k:1 stated for the IN83 is for unbalanced colors (uncalibrated) and with something like BrilliantColor? If that was the case, why does it mention the iris?

Is there any mode for the IN83 (even uncalibrated) where you can get even to the ballpark of 15k:1 on/off CR (say over 10k:1). Or the ballpark of 7500:1 in one mode for the X10?

--Darin

Yea, what the h*ll?!?!? We actually have a guy from Infocus posting information in this thread and you're already accusing them of cheating?!?!

What is wrong with some people on this board?!?!? Geez!!!

It might be early to ask this question about the X10, but looking at the Infocus product listing on their website it says the PJ supports HDCP.
Does anyone if you have to use the HDMI port for this or can I ust my old 25' DVI-M1 cable I have hooked up from my HTPC to my SP4805 today?

When is this projector going to hit the street?

Can I use the same Infocus ceiling mount as the one I have for the SP7200?

I don't want to hijack this thread but I see that someone from Infocus has posted here. And I have a really good question for him.

I thought that manufacturers were required to support their products for a period of some years. Yet, Infocus has chosen to stop supplying parts for the X2 not long after discontinuing the model. Why is this? If that rule or law is in place then Infocus has chosen to ignore it and there are a lot of people out here that are really pissed off at your company. I personally have over 20 projectors I manage for clients that now have to be retired because I can no longer repair them.

And when they are replaced, it won't be with Infocus units. That's 20+ sales you lost thanks to your policies. Nice going Infocus.

Somehow I dont think we will see the Ole guy again which is a shame....I miss the days of having Bob Williams answering tech Qs...hope Ole sticks around but chances are slim IMHO based on the replies he is getting....

I completely agree with you, sometimes I find hard to understand people. Do those who posted in such a way espected to get any reply or they just did it to blame the brand?

I posted because I wanted an answer. From my perspective (and my clients) Infocus abandoned and alienated a portion of it's customers. That is not good policy or good public relations.

I completely agree with you, sometimes I find hard to understand people. Do those who posted in such a way espected to get any reply or they just did it to blame the brand?I can't believe some of you guys seem to want people to be deceived. The InFocus site still claims:

http://www.infocus.com/Company/PressReleases/2008/031108_IN83.aspx
The IN83 combines state-of-the-art technology with a sleek, low profile design. Featuring the latest DLP® DarkChip4™ technology, the Play Big IN83 offers a native 5,000:1 contrast ratio (with a maximum contrast of 15,000:1) that ensures true-to-life color accuracy.What I want is for InFocus and other manufacturers not to cheat. Using a dynamic system is not cheating. Not using a dynamic system but claiming CR as if you have a dynamic system is cheating. I would love for Ole Dame to give a good explanation (the first explanation that others use uncalibrated numbers doesn't cut it unless they are claiming they have a mode that is 15k:1 from not being calibrated, which would still be native CR). But even more I would like to see them correct the misinformation out there about their projectors based on what they have on their site. Sounds like Ole Dame is going to do that for the X10, but if they are going to claim 7500:1 for the X10 or 15k:1 for the IN83 they should explain how they got there and not claim "native" just for the lower number. A review of the IN83 by Cine4home measured 2900:1 with the iris open, 4200:1 with the iris closed, and 4700:1 with the iris closed and BrilliantColor on with D65. Given the way that single chip DLPs can have bigger red segments or push the lamp harder during red segments (as InFocus has done in the past) their calibrated numbers should not be way lower than uncalibrated to justify a 3x claim.
I miss the days of having Bob Williams answering tech Qs...Bob Williams answers tech Qs, but for his employer, Planar. And if Planar cheated on their specs I would tell Bob so. I will also tell him and others ways that I think they can make their projectors better.

If InFocus didn't come up with that 15k:1 claim by using white from one mode and black from a different mode, then Ole Dame should have no problem at all coming back and clarifying where that 15k:1 claim came from and why a document on their site lists the 5k:1 as native. If there is no good explanation given, then at least they will hopefully fix the misconceptions elsewhere that have gone around because of what they claim on their site.

--Darin

If we were to call out every developer out there with false or misleading specs very few will be safe....its a shame there are no standards or laws regulating this.
Infocus for a long time was very accurate with their specs but seeing how others got away with BIGGER numbers thus better looking PR , maybe they decided that if you cant beat them....
I am not excusing anyone btw, I wish we could sit down read specs and know for sure thats what we are getting but that its not going to happen any time soon Im afraid.

I posted because I wanted an answer. From my perspective (and my clients) Infocus abandoned and alienated a portion of it's customers. That is not good policy or good public relations.

Right, but Ole Dame is MIA now and probably won't be back. I understand your frustration but you may have killed any chance that future technical questions will be addressed by him...

Luis was right - it'd be nice to have manufacturer reps addressing technical questions/concerns on AVS, but I understand why they don't. He didn't come on here to make apologies and address issues with InFocus's policies/procedures, he came on here to share some valuable technical info.

Although I don't disagree with you being p*ssed and wanting to get answers from InFocus, we need to handle manufacturer reps with kid gloves if we expect them to stick around and address some of the questions only they can answer. They're not required to post, and they won't if we can't excersize some tact. Just my $.02.

Your point is taken, sir. I agree I was a bit abrupt and could have posed it a bit more tactfully. Thanks for your $.02.

Right, but Ole Dame is MIA now and probably won't be back. I understand your frustration but you may have killed any chance that future technical questions will be addressed by him...

Luis was right - it'd be nice to have manufacturer reps addressing technical questions/concerns on AVS, but I understand why they don't. He didn't come on here to make apologies and address issues with InFocus's policies/procedures, he came on here to share some valuable technical info.

Although I don't disagree with you being p*ssed and wanting to get answers from InFocus, we need to handle manufacturer reps with kid gloves if we expect them to stick around and address some of the questions only they can answer. They're not required to post, and they won't if we can't excersize some tact. Just my $.02.

Steups,

Don't you think it's a little rude to accuse the man of cheating? I think what you're alleging is probably true and as Ole said, the only meaningful contrast ratio is ANSI which is well defined, because everyone plays games (note I did not say cheats) with the other ones.

As for the issue with support for older models, does anyone really think that Infocus legal would permit him to address that here? That was not an attempt to get an answer but just an opportunity to complain and there are many more appropriate threads in which to do so.

At least we did get confirmation that the aperture control is manual and not automatic as suggested by the Infocus marketing material.

Infocus for a long time was very accurate with their specs but seeing how others got away with BIGGER numbers thus better looking PR , maybe they decided that if you cant beat them....


They're basically giving both #'s. The smaller contrast number is likely what you'll get with normal use calibrated near D65. The bigger inflated number is more in line with what other manufacturers are doing.

I'm sure Infocus has lost a lot of business over the years by giving honest calibrated specs while many other manufacturers were giving contrast and lumen specs for the most extreme settings of the projector. Settings that almost no-one would likely use.

Yep I agree.

Don't you think it's a little rude to accuse the man of cheating? I think what you're alleging is probably true and as Ole said, the only meaningful contrast ratio is ANSI which is well defined, because everyone plays games (note I did not say cheats) with the other ones.No, ANSI CR and on/off CR tell different things. ANSI CR measurements are not a substitute for accurate on/off CR measurements. If ANSI CR told you what you need to know then they could have pretty much stopped a long time ago as the ANSI CRs probably haven't changed much from back in the InFocus 7210 days. As anybody who has read Greg Roger's reviews knows (even if they didn't when I was telling them this), a projector with higher on/off CR can give better CR across various images than a projector with higher ANSI CR (and it could work in the reverse). ANSI CR is not a substitute, even though some people get confused and think mixed images are about ANSI CR and not on/off CR. Even if the ANSI CR spec didn't (or doesn't) say that companies couldn't change things in the projector between measurements, they should know they can't.

I never complained when InFocus used peak white or whatever their term was (turning the mirrors on during the spoke time) as that is not outside the rules of measurement. Going into the menus on the projector and changing something, or changing something with the remote, between white and black readings obviously is.

I'm not going to apologize for calling it cheating when a company cheats. I asked straightforward questions and if Ole has good answers he can answer them. I'm not doing projector reviews at the moment, but I know people who do reviews for magazines and will try to make sure people know about tricks like this if companies that don't have dynamic systems try to claim CRs as if they do.
They're basically giving both #'s. The smaller contrast number is likely what you'll get with normal use calibrated near D65. The bigger inflated number is more in line with what other manufacturers are doing.I don't know of anybody else using white from one setting and black from another setting and it looks unlikely that InFocus got their number from just being uncalibrated (like blown out colors). But Ole is welcome to answer my question about that.

Giving CR for settings that most people won't use, but are an option, is not the same thing as giving CR that the projector can't do under any conditions. As I said, InFocus used turning the mirrors on during the spoke time between colors to help their specs in the past and I didn't complain because the projector could actually do it, even though most of us would disable that mode. If they change things in the projector between the white measurement and the black measurement then they might as well just turn it off and claim infinite on/off CR.

Seems like some of you guys would be fine with InFocus claiming numbers they would get if they had a dynamic iris, since other manufacturers actually have dynamic irises and give those numbers. For those who think that the numbers are for their projectors calibrated vs not, why does their site say "native" CR for the smaller number then? Both would be native CRs.

--Darin

It was clear to me that none of the IF projectors employ a DI. But I believed that the highest contrast spec was obtained by fully closing the iris. Do you really think IF obtained the higher contrast spec by comparing a fully opened iris to a fully closed iris on a MANUALY controlled iris? That would be beyond cheating. That would be insulting. Hopefully Ole will clarify.

Seems like some of you guys would be fine with InFocus claiming numbers they would get if they had a dynamic iris, since other manufacturers actually have dynamic irises and give those numbers. For those who think that the numbers are for their projectors calibrated vs not, why does their site say "native" CR for the smaller number then? Both would be native CRs.

--Darin

I could care less about the number they claim. In almost every case with other brands of projectors, that number comes from settings I would never use, so it is of no use to me anyway. I think that's true for most, if not all, of the people reading this thread. Those #'s are all marketing gimmicks for the most part.

I certainly don't care enough to immediately jump on an Infocus rep that was making a real effort to contribute to this thread.

Infocus is just playing the game because, unfortunately, so many people out there actually look at those #'s and put some value in to them. For someone that has a lot of experience with this stuff like me and I'm pretty sure YOU, the only specs that really count are the ones you cited from sites like Cine4home.

Very good post talon and I fully agree....again, wouldnt it be nice to actually be able to trust specs these days? :(

I Have a hunch who " Ole Dame ". Actually is.

And if I'm correct He is indeed A great guy .
if I'm incorrect and have the wrong Guy and he happens to be from India,,,,,,OOPS!!. sorry.:o

Infocus has been going through some heavy changes.
( If your a dealer or installer you know what I'm talking about ).;)

I believe Ole Dame is one of the very few " Good old boys " Infocus Has left.

It was great For Ole Dame to take the time out of his busy day to post in the AVS forum.

This is a wonderful Forum With some great guys with unlimited knowledge and hopefully He will continue to Contribute.

Believe Me Old Dame is A Player you want on our team.

some respect should be show to all the members On this forum, old and new .

Instantly Bashing a Infocus Rep makes it hard for everyone.

Welcome to the AVS Forum Old Dame.

Glade you could join us.!!



cheers:)

Murphy'Again

Giving CR for settings that most people won't use, but are an option, is not the same thing as giving CR that the projector can't do under any conditions.
You make it sound like InFocus has sinned a great sin, and broken a sacred rule amongst projector manufacturers to never do said thing. I don't like the way the CR spec is portrayed on the marketing material either, but it really doesn't rile me up, like it evidently has you.

We all know the game. You can spend all day chasing down every BS spec out there. For example, can the Marantz 11S2 really hit 15000:1 CR under any circumstance? I believe gregr measured around ~8300:1. You really think there's another 6-7K hiding in there with some color or temperature setting adjustments? I don't know, maybe - but I'd like to see it proved. Kris Deering measured the 15S1 at 2500:1, a far cry from the stated 10,000:1. Will you be taking Dan Miller to task the next time he pops up in the pricey forum, asking him to prove how those specs are achieved?

Nobody is more CR obsessed than you. How many projectors have you measured that have been able to meet the CR spec, under any condition? And that's not even a leading question - I'm genuinely curious.

Do you really think IF obtained the higher contrast spec by comparing a fully opened iris to a fully closed iris on a MANUALY controlled iris? That would be beyond cheating. That would be insulting.

Why would it be cheating. Much like you can change a percentage by changing the reference value, contrast ratio without any definition can mean anything. In this case it would be the ratio of a white image at max aperture to that of a black image at min aperture.

Say Infocus just gave the native contrast ratio of say 3000 or whatever it is. Along comes a buyer and that is the only number he sees and he compares that against another projector with a native contrast ratio of only 1500, but whose published spec is only that obtained with an auto iris which results in 4500 CR. That buyer then gets deluded into thinking that second projector has more "pop" than the Infocus. He would in fact be incorrect. So is Infocus helping or hurting that buyer by only giving native CR?

If Infocus had implemented some crappy DI that just had a min, max and middle setting it would be completely unusable for watching but it would support the higher CR number given, you would be fine with that. Well I really don't see much difference.

Just like with the old wattage number with amps, unless a standard is agreed upon and certified, any number can be hugely misleading. When I say ANSI CR is the only one that matters, I'm not say that a mixed-scene CR is all that matters. I recognize that all white/all black CR is also important. However, in the absence of any manufacturing standard the number the manufacturers give for this CR is as meaningless as a wattage number back in the old days.

Why would it be cheating

You're right. There is no cheating here.

Better yet, though, what they should do is this. Measure max white levels with a new bulb, and then max black levels with a very old, dim bulb. Adjust room lighting, maybe the iris and power level also in between measurements and I bet they can correctly claim a 30,000:1 contrast level.

Its not cheating if you really beleive its true.

We all know the game.I don't know of any other company measuring white in one mode and black in a different mode, like the stuff on the InFocus site implies if somebody knows they don't have a dynamic iris (and understands this stuff). Do you know of any other company measuring that way? If you did, would you defend the practice by that company?
For example, can the Marantz 11S2 really hit 15000:1 CR under any circumstance?I already made it clear that I could accept getting into the ballpark when I asked Ole if they could get even 10k:1 in an uncalibrated mode. I understand that companies tend to round up and also that projectors vary coming off the manufacturing line and companies may choose better examples for specs. Ole could come back and explain the claims on the InFocus site at any time, but either way they obviously need to make some fixes given that the datasheet for the IN83 claims 15k:1 with an active iris. Maybe somebody in marketing got confused and figured they must have a dynamic iris if they were going to claim one CR and then another that is 3x higher, maybe there was a miscommunication somewhere else, etc. But as it stands they claim a native CR of 5k:1 and a maximum CR of 15k:1 for the IN83, which Ole's explanation doesn't cover because uncalibrated would still be native CR. If the 5k:1 was calibrated to D65, then that is what the spec should say instead of "native" CR.
I believe gregr measured around ~8300:1. You really think there's another 6-7K hiding in there with some color or temperature setting adjustments?8300:1 is a whole lot more than Cine4home measured for the IN83 (4200:1 without BrilliantColor and 4700:1 with), Jason has measured a range of values that I recall went up over 10k:1 for the 11S2 (seems like I read close to 12k:1 for the most he measured with an 11S2) and I'm not sure how much each of them left for space above reference white or how much normal unit to unit measurement there is with those. I believe that 2 tight irises could contribute to variation across lamps and units because of how important it is for the irises to line up well in order to get the best CR. As I pretty much already said, if InFocus can get over 10k:1 in some uncalibrated mode and rounds up I can understand that, but their claim of "native" CR of 1/3 their maximum doesn't match up with that.
Kris Deering measured the 15S1 at 2500:1, a far cry from the stated 10,000:1. Will you be taking Dan Miller to task the next time he pops up in the pricey forum, asking him to prove how those specs are achieved?I was there for that measurement and as Kris and I discussed and he put in his review, we wondered if there might have been a problem with the dual irises lining up. It is important that they line up well and it wouldn't surprise me if they got higher measurements at some point in development that would allow them to justify the higher spec, but somewhere along the way they ended up with an issue with how their irises lined up, because I think they should be able to get much more than we measured with that projector. The first thing I think they should do is check to see if there iris implementation is off as far as what they could have gotten. If values like that are all any 15S1s will ever get then their spec is way off. Still different than measuring in different modes though, which I think I made very clear is my issue here (and still hoping for real clarification and for InFocus to fix the misleading stuff on their site, which I understand takes some time).

If Marantz made their spec based on measuring white with one iris setting and black with another iris setting I would call them on it. Would you defend them and that practice if they did that?
How many projectors have you measured that have been able to meet the CR spec, under any condition? And that's not even a leading question - I'm genuinely curious.I haven't kept track, but the Sharp M20x measured higher than the spec. The Sharp 10k and 11k I had were close from what I recall, but I don't remember if they went a little over or were a little under when using their dynamic modes. I measured the Panasonic AX100 at 6300:1 in dynamic mode and the spec was 6000:1. The JVC HD2K measured higher than their 2k:1 spec and that was calibrated. My JVC HD1 (basically the RS1) measured lower than the spec, but I am using a shorter end of the throw (which results in lower on/off CR) and I think Greg Rogers actually measured higher than the spec for the RS1 and close for the RS2. I think the Qualia and Sony VW100 were close to their specs, but I don't recall any specific numbers.

Since I answered your question, I would appreciate it if you would answer whether you will defend other manufacturers if they use white from one mode and black from a different mode for CR.

If InFocus isn't doing what their site implies they are doing then I hope Ole will clear it up. As I mentioned, they need to fix some stuff on their site either way though. The overview for the IN83 says:

http://www.infocus.com/Products/Projectors/IN83.aspx
A rich 5000:1 native contrast further enriches the image in theater rooms, and if desired, the contrast can be boosted to a maximum 15000:1 by activating the onboard iris.and the datasheet that can be accessed from the bottom of that page says:
Contrast: 15,000:1 with active iris/5,000:1 native
...
Contrast Ratio: 5000:1 native (Max 15,0000:1 using iris)--Darin

When I say ANSI CR is the only one that matters ...If a company changed modes between measuring the white rectangles and black rectangles or put an ND filter on the projector between those things, would you consider it cheating and why or why not? If the people who wrote the ANSI CR spec didn't think to preclude the ND filter trick, would it then not be cheating in your opinion?

--Darin

Darin

Why do you think IF changed modes to measure contrast?
Is it not possible to obtain a “marketing” contrast of 15000:1 on a native 5000:1 by simply taking the measurement in the fully closed iris mode?

I don’t expect the “marketing” contrast figure of 15000:1 to be accurate. What I find hard to believe is that IF changed iris modes between measuring white and black. I agree with you that this would be totally unacceptable. I wish Ole would clarify.

Darin

Why do you think IF changed modes to measure contrast?
Is it not possible to obtain a “marketing” contrast of 15000:1 on a native 5000:1 by simply taking the measurement in the fully closed iris mode? Because that would still be a native CR, like if the projector shipped with the iris locked in the tighter position it would be native CR. And since the iris closed down mode would be the one where I think a proper calibration would be the more important one in the case given of using the iris open for lights on or sports and iris closed down for dark room viewing, the explanation that the 5k:1 is calibrated and the 15:1 uncalibrated doesn't make sense with what is claimed about the native CR being 5k:1. In other words, calibrated with the iris closed down is a mode with a native CR, but so is uncalibrated with the iris closed down. If the difference was calibrated vs uncalibrated then that is how the 5k:1 and 15k:1 should have been characterized, instead of native vs using the iris.

Also, unless they have 2 irises instead of 1 I don't see them getting there. But I did ask if they could get to even 10k:1 uncalibrated, in which case I could see some marketing fudging to somewhat higher (especially if the best units off the line could get more).

There is some conflicting information with what is on the site and what Ole Dame said here, so I hope it does get cleared up, like you said.

--Darin

cgros,

To add some more stuff in case I wasn't clear above, if it was 5k:1 for iris open and 15k:1 for iris closed, wouldn't Ole Dame have just said that? And if the 5k:1 is iris open and calibrated, that is quite a bit higher than the 2900:1 the Cine4home guys measured that way (although it looks like BrilliantColor may push that to 3200:1, but I'm not clear from the text), so may already be for special units or have some marketing push in it. The Cine4home review (which is in German) says that the native CR goes to 4100:1 or 4200:1 when the iris is closed. They also say that 15k:1 is from measuring white with the iris open and black with the iris closed, so if that is not true then InFocus should explain where the 15k:1 came from to the Cine4home guys and get them to fix the review.

--Darin

Darin

You’re correct. I just reread the Cine4home review. They did say 15k: 1 is from measuring white with the iris open and black with the iris closed.

Based on the IN83 info page, I thought “native” contrast referred to not using the iris (iris fully open). And “maximum” contrast referred to, “by activating the onboard iris” (fully closed). They had me fooled.

If IF doesn’t asked Cine4home to change their review, then it’s pretty conclusive that they changed modes to measure contrast.

Something tells me we won’t be hearing from Ole again.

I would not get hung up over what chip is in this projector as the 'NATIVE' difference between the first generation to the last generation ( or most recent ) on CR values is less than 8%.

The rest of the projectors light engine and design parameters make up the rest of the percentage numbers. I have seen pre production samples of the image this projector throws and it looks great.

Dang, Darin is going to grind his axe completely away at this rate. :)

Since I answered your question, I would appreciate it if you would answer whether you will defend other manufacturers if they use white from one mode and black from a different mode for CR.

Hi Darin,

To answer your question, no I wouldn't, and I'm not trying to defend InFocus. As I mentioned in my prior post, I don't like the way the CR spec is stated in the marketing material. Like you, I also hope they change the specsheets, especially any verbiage that implies an active iris. My point was however, it doesn't get me riled up that the stated max CR spec is a pipe dream. They can join the club, which seems to have its worst offenders in the DLP camp (not surprising, since they need to compete with the DI implementations of the other technologies).

And for the record, when other mfgs overstate the spec, I don't get riled up either. It's just the unfortunate reality of the situation. Those in the know realize lumen and CR specs are not to be taken at face value, that trade-offs and other factors apply, and instead wait for real life measurements taken during reviews such as yours to guide us to the more accurate truth. Those ignorant of that reality, and who take the specs at face value, are doomed to make a decision based on incomplete facts. That could be the guy buying the IN83 because he thinks he's getting best-in-class contrast, or the guy buying the Marantz 11S2, who thinks he's actually gonna get 850 lumens to drive his large screen AND 15000:1 CR to boot.

I don't know of any other company measuring white in one mode and black in a different mode, like the stuff on the InFocus site implies if somebody knows they don't have a dynamic iris (and understands this stuff). Do you know of any other company measuring that way?
If a company states a max CR for a projector, and that spec is not met during real life measurements, who's to say how they are deriving the spec. It sounds like you don't know either. In the absence of that knowledge, how can you determine that one company is any more deceptive than another, or exactly what other mfgs are doing? InFocus made the mistake of giving too much info away. Would we even be having this discussion if the specsheet just stated 15K:1 max contrast, and left it at that?

Is it any less deceptive to measure contrast for a cherry picked or pre-production unit not representative of a typical production model? Or to measure CR at 9500K, or with grossly inaccurate colors? You seem to think so. But I think they are practically equivalent, because none are representative of what you'll get in your theater.

If all this sounds like I'm defending InFocus, or that I don't mind this kind of misinformation, trust me that's not the truth. Until the playing field is level for everyone however, and all must abide by the same rules for stating CR specs, I'll just continue doing what I've always done (and what I suspect most all of the other people in this thread do) - take mfgs spec with a grain of salt...

Nice post Jeff....I agree that until someone decides things needs to be measures in X or Y way, I dont care how any company measures it, if real life measurements are different from the specs they claim then they are all deceiving the Cx...
I dont think one is less deceiving than the other one really applies here...either you are right or you are not when printing your specs, no middle ground.

Has anyone seen a review on this projector yet ? I'm surprised it hasn't been getting more attention.

I don't want to hijack this thread but I see that someone from Infocus has posted here. And I have a really good question for him.

I thought that manufacturers were required to support their products for a period of some years. Yet, Infocus has chosen to stop supplying parts for the X2 not long after discontinuing the model. Why is this? If that rule or law is in place then Infocus has chosen to ignore it and there are a lot of people out here that are really pissed off at your company. I personally have over 20 projectors I manage for clients that now have to be retired because I can no longer repair them.

And when they are replaced, it won't be with Infocus units. That's 20+ sales you lost thanks to your policies. Nice going Infocus.

I believe manufacturers are required to support consumer electronics for up to 6 years.

I believe manufacturers are required to support consumer electronics for up to 6 years.

I'm not the expert on this but I know that all laws are followed. I just do the home products so I'm not sure when the last X2's were shipped. Even after the required time we will often supply parts for 3rd party repair at Projector Doctor. When repair isn't possible service will usually offer a credit for the old unit towards a new one or a reman unit at a discounted price not available to the general public. They are often able to find a comparable performing projector for near the same price as the repair would have cost.

The Infocus X2 projector went into production in May 2004. While I don't know when it was discontinued, 6 years after date of the FIRST one is still 2 YEARS AWAY!

So, when I am told that parts have discontinued and are not available, that tells me that the laws are NOT being followed. Yet no one seems to care or is willing to address it.

My customers have decided to go with other manufacturers for their replacements because of this lack of support.

Welcome back Ole Dame! Please stick around longer this time - many people have questions for you. I, however, do not.:o

The Infocus X2 projector went into production in May 2004. While I don't know when it was discontinued, 6 years after date of the FIRST one is still 2 YEARS AWAY!

So, when I am told that parts have discontinued and are not available, that tells me that the laws are NOT being followed. Yet no one seems to care or is willing to address it.

My customers have decided to go with other manufacturers for their replacements because of this lack of support.

Hang on Sheridan, don't quote me as gospel. I said "I believe" that 6 years is accurate, but I could be mistaken. I know this was quoted to me recently on a warranty claim with Sanyo, but you should confirm this before going too far off on Ole Dame.

Not to provide anyone wrong and definitely not demeaning to Ole Dame/InFocus. Stated just as a fact... I posted this earlier in another thread.


Google for "Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act". Now, I am not lawyer to get all the terms correctly, but the info is very clear at this page.
http://www.aboutcalifornialemonlaw.com/Song-Beverly%20Consumer%20Warranty%20Act.htm

Excerpt from that page -
with a wholesale price to the retailer of one hundred dollars ($100)
or more, shall make available to service and repair facilities
sufficient service literature and functional parts to effect the
repair of a product for at least seven years after the date a product
model or type was manufactured, regardless of whether the seven-year
period exceeds the warranty period for the product.

And, Mr. Schwarzenegger signed a new bill covering lots of products, services and goods into this law. I live in California.
http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/pdf_files/sb_234.pdf

So, Infocus not having the replacement parts in stock is sure a violation. Also, the same law states that the repair should not take more than 30 days. There is exceptions and in that case, they have to take written consent from the buyer.


The laws vary from state to state but there is also one federal law, I could not find the details in that law explicitly for warranty claims.

InFocus makes great products, just that they need to back these better.

Any word on when this will be released?

So far, I have not been able to find anyone who has seen or reviewed this projector.

Cant speak for other countries but here in Norway a chain that has been advertising these told me about 3 weeks ago that customers who order this, can expect to receive their units "sometime in June".

Hello All,

Hope you are all well.

Little off topic, however I had a 2 year old Samsung 26" 16:9 HDTV that blew its power supply. Samsung had already discontinued parts for the TV. I called Samsung, and several 3rd party repair shops looking for a power supply with no luck. Finally replaced the unit with an Epson MovieMate 30s. I was not very happy about Samsung's lack of parts support after such a short time. So, it seems companies, at least these 2, are not following the law as written. Or, there are loopholes in these laws concerning parts support.

Later,

Tony

I believe manufacturers are required to support consumer electronics for up to 6 years.

The X10 will be widely available around the country this week. We shipped a decent amount last week.

Thank you for the update. I've been wondering.

Excellent! Hopefully some reviews pop up soon..

Old Dame - Do you know if the X10 will display 85hz in it's native form? The reason for asking is one application I'm looking to do is stereoscopic video, and a number of previous Infocus DLP projectors were capable of displaying 85hz without converting down to 60hz.

ProjectorPeople has it for 2299.00. Looks good.

They have listed the Iris as "active". Does it mean dynamic iris?

Just in case you guys are interested to hear some owner opinion.

UK forum
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7210242#post7210242

At least two guys who own this one has written in the above thread.
The X10 has started shipping from June 10th in UK and Europe and is much cheaper compared to the US price at £900 around $1700--1800.
I am also looking for some professional review of this unit.

Trusted reviews (UK) has just put up a very positive review of the X10. No measurements of light output or CR, but they do state that contrast compared well to several DC3 units they have used.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2008/06/24/InFocus-X10-DLP-Projector/p1

I think this looks like a strong projector. It is at the top of my list as an upgrade to my standard Definition 4805 that is showing it's old age but still throws a great picture.

Has anyone here at AVS seen or bought the X10 yet? I was leaning towards an AE2000 but the dust blob issue is turning me off :(

I'm interested, too.

Trusted reviews (UK) has just put up a very positive review of the X10. No measurements of light output or CR, but they do state that contrast compared well to several DC3 units they have used.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2008/06/24/InFocus-X10-DLP-Projector/p1
That website is not the most thorough when it comes to being critical on products.

So I would take any review from there with a grain of salt. Some point to the author, but that website has a long track record of glossing over stuff - and ultimatley they edit the articles.

Best to wait and see what a proper projector website actually has to say when they review its image quality.

Well, this shows the knowledge of reviewer.
it does have one potential Achilles' Heel lurking among all the facts and figures: a DarkChip 1 (DC1) DLP chipset.

In case you're not familiar with the DarkChip story, some of the very latest projectors, including InFocus's own IN83, are starting to use DarkChip4 technology, and we've been through DarkChip2 and Darkchip 3 along the way. So you can get a sense of how relatively ‘over the hill' the X10's core DLP engine is, at least on paper.

He is comparing this DarkChip1 chip to the older one. I thought this is a new budget chip from TI.

Well, this shows the knowledge of reviewer.


He is comparing this DarkChip1 chip to the older one. I thought this is a new budget chip from TI.

I agree. The word on the street is the DC1 is a new chip... I thought. This is where a "credible" review site would be very useful.

"I can tell you you will NOT find it for $1500. I know the margin on this one and it's thin."
So what makes the US so much more expensive to do business? I can find it for as low as £765.10 ($~1530us) in the UK, but here in the US we have glennzippy saying margins are razor thin at a $2300 msrp. Is it the way the marketing channels work here? I'm all for helping Infocus out when I can, but sometimes they make it a real challenge. Also, this seems to be a real price breakthrough, so why hasn't it been aggressively reviewed? Something seems not quite right so far, but I'm hoping this can be the projector to hold me over while waiting on 2nd gen led/dlp w/ no spinning parts.

JO8960,

Just wondering...

How have you been a member for almost 2 years and only now found a reason to finally make your first post?

Jim

Actually I joined in 2/03 while designing/building several home theaters. I think Avsforum switched to a new version some time in 06 and I simply haven't posted since then. I guess you would have to ask the guys running the website for more info.
My Sp7200 just bit the dust and instead of repairing it, I'm looking for a replacement. I was hoping to upgrade to a 1080p 3-chip but they are still too expensive (for me anyway) for occasional use. I like the idea of led and no wheel and no replacement bulbs, but I think my buy point would be at least 2 years away, so I need about a 2-year projector. I used to like Infocus and their products a lot, but I'm not as confident about them as I was years ago, so I find myself questioning things I wouldn't normally question.
John

Anybody get one of these yet? Maybe we should change the title of the thread?

Yes I did. It is much better than the sp7200 it replaced. Brighter, quieter, better blacks. I'm using the projector at the zoom limit and it is a couple inches better than the chart shows (152 dia at 25') with very little barreling. When I ordered it, I asked about user feedback and was told that they had sold a few, but no feedback yet. The sales person said he even asked the Infocus rep that visited last week and he had no information.
The sound is more of a hushed fan noise with no high pitched wheel noise. Very little light spill in the room. I'm sure the reviews of the in8x series would cover everything but the dlp chipset, which has no noticeable scan lines at normal viewing distances. The pixel structure can be seen up close so you can focus how you want. I had 4 teenagers over to test out xbox and did the "can you see a rainbow test" at 12'. None could.
I'm running the x10 in normal brightness mode and it is brighter than the sp7200 in bright mode (w/new bulb).
I have a Firehawk, so blacks look great. Dithering smooths out at 48 (50 default).
So far the only issue I have is using trapezoid to correct for the greater off-set, so I'll be experimenting with tilting the top of the screen forward a couple of inches and see how that goes.
I'm glad I didn't repair the sp7200. For an inexpensive, bright long-throw projector, this is an excellent price/performance choice.

Thanks for posting JO8960. I've been eyeing this. I really enjoy my IN76 and this may be it's replacement. I am very annoyed by misconvergence and color uniformity issues which has kept me away from the LCD camp.

Art over at ProjectorReviews is going to get one in to test also. Probably be a little while before he has a review up though.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2008/07/03/upcoming-projector-reviews-for-july-and-august-infocus-epson-benq/

JO8960, I'm one of those "bad" people that could see RBE with the IN72 and IN76. Given that the x10 has a 7-seg wheel, what is the wheel speed?

I've both a Mitsu 1000u and an Epson 400 to keep peace in the family.

I believe it is the same as the IN82, which puts it at 4x. However, the picture seems to be less fatiguing to my eyes than the sp7200 which was also a 4x. Maybe the extra segments help. The manual that ships with the projector is actually for the IN82. I would definitely recommend previewing it (and all dlp's for that matter) if you have a known RBE sensitivity.

I had a benq 8700 plus for a month with 5x and there was less RBE than the Infocus and the Mitsu. Looks like I'll pass and aim for the Mitsu 5500.

Yes I did. It is much better than the sp7200 it replaced. Brighter, quieter, better blacks. I'm using the projector at the zoom limit and it is a couple inches better than the chart shows (152 dia at 25') with very little barreling. When I ordered it, I asked about user feedback and was told that they had sold a few, but no feedback yet. The sales person said he even asked the Infocus rep that visited last week and he had no information.
The sound is more of a hushed fan noise with no high pitched wheel noise. Very little light spill in the room. I'm sure the reviews of the in8x series would cover everything but the dlp chipset, which has no noticeable scan lines at normal viewing distances. The pixel structure can be seen up close so you can focus how you want. I had 4 teenagers over to test out xbox and did the "can you see a rainbow test" at 12'. None could.
I'm running the x10 in normal brightness mode and it is brighter than the sp7200 in bright mode (w/new bulb).
I have a Firehawk, so blacks look great. Dithering smooths out at 48 (50 default).
So far the only issue I have is using trapezoid to correct for the greater off-set, so I'll be experimenting with tilting the top of the screen forward a couple of inches and see how that goes.
I'm glad I didn't repair the sp7200. For an inexpensive, bright long-throw projector, this is an excellent price/performance choice.

Does this PJ have the same offsets as all the Infocus models? I am finding that the limited zoom won't allow me to do what I want.

Same as the IN8x series. Mainly good for long distances, which is what I needed.

...then it looks like I need to find some feet in my set-up...

Can you tell me about your mounting situation? How far back, how big a picture size, and how much off-set are you getting? It looks like you had to tilt-up because of the off-set.

Thanks,

PS... Can anyone clarify what DC1 is? I highly doubt it is a 5yr old chip, so what is it?

I have the x10 projecting 25' to a 152" dia 16:9 firehawk with 99.9% light control. The room has a 9' ceiling with the screen top about 8' high. It's a dedicated theater with low reflective black ceiling and dark walls etc. I am tilting the projector to compensate for the off-set and will be tilting the sreen forward and see if I can minimize the keystone correction. I anticipated using the high bulb setting, but brightness looks fine at the normal setting. Maybe when the bulb begins to decline I'll need to bump it up to high, but I'm not a high hour user so it will be a while.

I think contributing to the brightness equation is there is very little light spill-over except for the ceiling right in front of the projector. It is mounted 10" below the ceiling and I think the tilt up exagerates this effect. The sp7200 it replaced shot light all over the room.

I am curious about the DC1 chip as well. I asked when I bought it and the sales person had no information. So much for the extensive Infocus authorization product training. I guess we'll have to wait for the expert reviewers for more information. Why come out with a new projector and no news / info?

Does anybody know how fast is the color wheel in X10? I was only able to find that it is 7 segment, but not the speed of it.

It'd be nice if Infocus chimed in with more info on this product.

Hopefully, the reviews will start to pop soon.

Yeah...unfortunately the last time an Infocus rep came by...well lets say it wasnt pretty. :(

Yeah...unfortunately the last time an Infocus rep came by...well lets say it wasnt pretty. :(
Care to elaborate?

Care to elaborate?Try reading this thread.

Care to elaborate?I will. I had dropped it, but Luis decided to bring it up again. From my reading of their posts, both talon95 and Luis don't care if companies do things like measure on/off CR by putting the projector in one mode for the white reading, then changing the projector settings (like closing a manual iris) for a black level reading, and publish an on/off CR number based on that technique. They both seem to feel that this kind of misleading thing shouldn't be brought up in order to keep from offending a rep for the company who might not post here if we call them on that kind of tactic and don't care what numbers they claim or the techniques they use to get them. Luis claimed that InFocus was very accurate with their specs for a long time, but according to an InFocus saleperson and calibrator they used a white peaking feature (making white brighter than would be possible with just red, green, and blue primaries by turning the mirrors on during the time between color segments on the colorwheel) for their on/off CR measurements, which is something LCD manufacturers don't have similar modes for. But the on/off CR still would have been done in one projector mode, which should be obvious to everybody as part of the test. I doubt people would change projector modes between measuring the white rectangles in the ANSI CR test and the black rectangles.

Luis and talon95 both feel that InFocus got their 5k:1 and 15k:1 for the IN83 by using calibrated for the first and uncalibrated for the 2nd, despite InFocus's documentation on their own site saying: "Contrast: 15,000:1 with active iris/5,000:1 native" even to this day (in the infocus_IN83_datasheet_en-1.pdf). And the overview for that projector still says, "A rich 5000:1 native contrast further enriches the image in theater rooms, and if desired, the contrast can be boosted to a maximum 15000:1 by activating the onboard iris." If what the InFocus rep said here about calibrated vs uncalibrated and what Luis and talon95 both seem to believe is the difference between the 5k:1 and 15k:1 is true, why does the InFocus site say what it does?

But, of course, neither talon95 or Luis care what techniques are used or what numbers are claimed, according to their posts.

The www.cine4home.de review still says that the way InFocus got the 15k:1 for the IN83 was by measuring white with the iris open and black with the iris closed and both talon95 and Luis seem to be fine with InFocus doing that, if that is what they did. Luis can correct it if he doesn't agree that this is accurate to his position, but I am going by what he posted.

As far as accuracy in specs and others using color modes that are wrong, while InFocus has used color modes that are right, InFocus gets their higher lumens partially by having an inaccurate green. That is, they pull it in toward yellow. That raises both the ANSI lumens and the on/off CR, but at least those can be done in one mode even if the green primary is too yellow and I think they can still do ANSI lumens and on/off CR reasonably even though that primary is wrong.

--Darin

Uh oh, axe grinding has started up again.

You know darinp2...my time is too valuable to waste in non sense flaming wars...no matter what I say, or anyone say for that matter, you have your mind set so whats the point?

The fact remains that there are no standards for spec publishing thus comparing them is a waste of time and that's what new members looking to buy projectors should be aware of. Its just as bad as selecting a projector based on screenshots. ;)
BTW, its obvious that you were very eager to bring this up...in my case I just posted a cryptic message as I am not going into all those details again....

Regards

Here's a review I found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PtYZAs-uk0

http://www.my411family.com/electronics/projectors/reviews/read.php?id=90

New x10 review out http://www.avforums.com/reviews/26/InFocus-X10-DLP-Projector---Full-HD-1080-Review.html. Guess this pj needs a good calibration before judging it. :)



I took the liberty to make a little list from the measured figures avforum has done:


X10 calibrated contrast 1450:1, ANSI contrast 400:1 (iris almoust fully closed when you get the best contrast, but not sacrificing too much light output)


EMP-TW2000 out of the box contrast 1300:1, ANSI contrast 780:1
EMP-TW2000 calibrated contrast 1278:1, ANSI contrast 735:1


PT-AE2000 out of the box contrast 922:1, ANSI contrast 102:1
PT-AE2000 calibrated contrast 820:1, ANSI contrast 80:1


HC6000 out of the box contrast 721:1, ANSI contrast 80:1
HC6000 calibrated contrast 414:1, ANSI contrast 74:1


HD100 calibrated contrast 29,000:1

I'd love to be able to get this projector, but InFocus hosed the throw on these... it won't fit!

Btw, how does the Epson have that much better specs than the Panny and Mits? They have a lot of the same guts.

To give others an idea of the keystone issue, I am projecting 25' to a fixed 152" screen, the top of which is 6" below the center of the lens. If I tilt the top of the screen forward 3", the image is almost perfect (within 1/2") with no keystone correction. I can tell it is slightly tilted, but no one else seems to notice, even when asked.

Art has his review up,

http://www.projectorreviews.com/infocus/X10/index.php

Art has his review up,

http://www.projectorreviews.com/infocus/X10/index.php
I read this article and I'm now between hd803 and x10. The blacks at x10 does'nt seem very tempting, but on the other hand, the shadow detail is indeed impressive. HD803 tends to lose some of the shadow detail in the darkness, and it looks like the IN83 is the pj to go if you want both. :o The out of the box colors in x10 are tempting too, but the blacks... aaargh! :eek:

I know that those pictures have been tampered, but still the question remains, how black the blacks are in x10? Guess I have to go in some shop to see it myself. If only there would be any, near where I live. :rolleyes:

I read this article and I'm now between hd803 and x10. The blacks at x10 does'nt seem very tempting, but on the other hand, the shadow detail is indeed impressive. HD803 tends to lose some of the shadow detail in the darkness, and it looks like the IN83 is the pj to go if you want both. :o The out of the box colors in x10 are tempting too, but the blacks... aaargh! :eek:

I know that those pictures have been tampered, but still the question remains, how black the blacks are in x10? Guess I have to go in some shop to see it myself. If only there would be any, near where I live. :rolleyes:

The 806 is coming out soon too...I would hold off for that. Maybe the price of the IN83 will drop by the end of the year.

Request the mod to change the title of the thread to Infocus X10 1080 Budget DLP.

I read this article and I'm now between hd803 and x10. The blacks at x10 does'nt seem very tempting, but on the other hand, the shadow detail is indeed impressive. HD803 tends to lose some of the shadow detail in the darkness, and it looks like the IN83 is the pj to go if you want both. :o The out of the box colors in x10 are tempting too, but the blacks... aaargh! :eek:

I know that those pictures have been tampered, but still the question remains, how black the blacks are in x10? Guess I have to go in some shop to see it myself. If only there would be any, near where I live. :rolleyes:

Yea, what would be nice also is a direct comparison to one of the previous generation budget DLP's too (like the Mitsu 1000/1500/1600, or even the IN76).

I have a Mitsu 1000 now. Question is, will I get a decent black level improvement with the X10? Really no idea. I'm guessing it will be better, but how much is really unknown.

I shot a quick email asking about the use of the manual iris and black levels. Other reviews have mentioned that the iris improved black levels and I didn't see much about it in Art's review. If I get any response on it, I'll post it here. Other than the black level it looks like an impressive projector. I would also like to know how it stacks up to some of the 720p DLP's in this area (namely my IN76).

I shot a quick email asking about the use of the manual iris and black levels. Other reviews have mentioned that the iris improved black levels and I didn't see much about it in Art's review. If I get any response on it, I'll post it here. Other than the black level it looks like an impressive projector. I would also like to know how it stacks up to some of the 720p DLP's in this area (namely my IN76).

The iris will decrease black level just the same as it does the rest of the spectrum. It's very effective if you don't need to full brightness of the projector.

An interesting test would be to set the iris such that the measured brightness is in the 400-500 lumen range (closer to other similarly priced 1080p units) and then compare black level.

I'm aware the iris will result in lowering the light output overall and not just increasing black level. My interest is right along the lines of what you are stating. What is the black level like with the iris stopped down to a usable light level and without compromising too much shadow detail.

The real question is how much does the contrast ratio improve when using the iris. A good manual iris design should improve the on/off CR, not just lower the black level.

My guess is that with the iris employed, you should be able to best the CR of the IN76, although the image won't be as bright needless to say. Just a guess though.

I have read Art's review of the X10, but somewhere (don't remember where) I also read that IF was supposed to be releasing another projector slightly more expensive than the X10 called the HD80....

However, I have not found any information or spec's on an HD80 from InFocus.........??? Does anyone here have any further info??

I do know about Optoma's HD80... which makes it quite strange that IF would release a projector with the same name as Optoma's projector from a couple of years ago..................??

I have read Art's review of the X10, but somewhere (don't remember where) I also read that IF was supposed to be releasing another projector slightly more expensive than the X10 called the HD80....

However, I have not found any information or spec's on an HD80 from InFocus.........??? Does anyone here have any further info??

I do know about Optoma's HD80... which makes it quite strange that IF would release a projector with the same name as Optoma's projector from a couple of years ago..................??

The HD80 is an Optoma projector, Optoma is releasing an 806 projector, could that be the one?

Now we have one more- Infocus IN80

http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2008/08/18/InFocus-IN80-DLP-Projector/p1

Yea, what would be nice also is a direct comparison to one of the previous generation budget DLP's too (like the Mitsu 1000/1500/1600, or even the IN76).

I have a Mitsu 1000 now. Question is, will I get a decent black level improvement with the X10? Really no idea. I'm guessing it will be better, but how much is really unknown.
I just bought the x10; should arrive 9/11. I have an HD1000U w/770 hrs, so I'll do a side by side and let you know the difference in black level on my 1.4 white carada in my blackhole room.

I just bought the x10; should arrive 9/11. I have an HD1000U w/770 hrs, so I'll do a side by side and let you know the difference in black level on my 1.4 white carada in my blackhole room.

Have you set up the X10 yet? Since I mainly watch HDTV shows and some sports I was considering this over the BenQ W5000. The color on the BenQ seems to have more pop than the X10, from the screen shots I have seen. I do love horror movies and sci-fi movies, so the so-so black levels of the X10 are another turn off. I wouldn't imagine they are any worse than my current projector...the Infocus IN72.

Now we have one more- Infocus IN80

http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2008/08/18/InFocus-IN80-DLP-Projector/p1

Does anyone know the MSRP price of the IN80 compared to the X10 in the United States?

Have you set up the X10 yet? Since I mainly watch HDTV shows and some sports I was considering this over the BenQ W5000. The color on the BenQ seems to have more pop than the X10, from the screen shots I have seen. I do love horror movies and sci-fi movies, so the so-so black levels of the X10 are another turn off. I wouldn't imagine they are any worse than my current projector...the Infocus IN72.
I received the X10. Unfortunately, I have to return it because it will not work with my Prismasonic anamorphic lens. The lens is too deeply recessed. Prismasonic is aware of this incompatibility.

I have a 1.4 gain White Carada 2.35 120" diagonal screen and completely blacked-out theater with dark fabric walls.

Compared to the Mitsubishi HD1000U:
1. Sharpness is considerably better on X10
2. Brightness is the same; both very bright
3. Color accuracy is the same; both great
4. Shadow detail is the same; both great
5. Rainbow is a tiny bit worse on X10; neither are bad
6. Fan noise is lower on X10 and no whining or buzzing sounds. High power mode is louder on X10
7. Image noise is the same with Brilliant Color off; both are good
8. Inter-scene contrast is slightly better on X10; both are really good
9. Absolute Black level: With both units on low (standard) power mode, X10 iris at 100%, the X10 is slightly deeper. Any iris setting lower than 100%, the X10 is deeper. I found 73% to be best compromise. I'm probably around 800 lumens. I always favor brightness to absolute black level since I don't have the black bars with my 2.35 screen.

To sum it up, the X10 is a stylish 1080p version of the Mits HD1000U with an iris. Slightly quieter, 24Hz, vertical stretch (if the X10 fits with your anamorphic lens).

I definitely would have kept the X10 if not for the anamorphic lens issue. I even considered cutting into the lip around the front of the projector to make the lens fit closer, but I chickened out.

I'm now hoping the Panny AE3000 has enough brightness for me or maybe I'll go with the 1080UB if price drops a bit...

I received the X10. Unfortunately, I have to return it because it will not work with my Prismasonic anamorphic lens. The lens is too deeply recessed. Prismasonic is aware of this incompatibility.

I have a 1.4 gain White Carada 2.35 120" diagonal screen and completely blacked-out theater with dark fabric walls.

Compared to the Mitsubishi HD1000U:
1. Sharpness is considerably better on X10
2. Brightness is the same; both very bright
3. Color accuracy is the same; both great
4. Shadow detail is the same; both great
5. Rainbow is a tiny bit worse on X10; neither are bad
6. Fan noise is lower on X10 and no whining or buzzing sounds. High power mode is louder on X10
7. Image noise is the same with Brilliant Color off; both are good
8. Inter-scene contrast is slightly better on X10; both are really good
9. Absolute Black level: With both units on low (standard) power mode, X10 iris at 100%, the X10 is slightly deeper. Any iris setting lower than 100%, the X10 is deeper. I found 73% to be best compromise. I'm probably around 800 lumens. I always favor brightness to absolute black level since I don't have the black bars with my 2.35 screen.

To sum it up, the X10 is a stylish 1080p version of the Mits HD1000U with an iris. Slightly quieter, 24Hz, vertical stretch (if the X10 fits with your anamorphic lens).

I definitely would have kept the X10 if not for the anamorphic lens issue. I even considered cutting into the lip around the front of the projector to make the lens fit closer, but I chickened out.

I'm now hoping the Panny AE3000 has enough brightness for me or maybe I'll go with the 1080UB if price drops a bit...

Thanks very much! How was the color compared to other projectors? In the screen shots Art put up, the colors of the X10 seem very dull compared to other similarly priced projectors, the BenQ W5000, Mitsubishi 5500 and the Epson 1080UB. Are the screen shots deceiving, or are the colors really that dull? The BenQ seems to have a real "pop" to the picture when it comes to color.

dysfunction26:

It depends on what you want. If you like accuracy, the X10 is great. Skin tones are excellent right out of the box. If you want more dynamic colors, you can enable Brlliant Color and still have less image noise than the W5000.

Anyone else pick up an X-10 yet? Seems kinda strange that this PJ is getting so little interest on the forum. It looks to have some of the best picture quality in the price range with the exception of black level.

Anyone else pick up an X-10 yet? Seems kinda strange that this PJ is getting so little interest on the forum. It looks to have some of the best picture quality in the price range with the exception of black level.

Yep, bought one about a month ago as a replacement for my Optoma HD72i. It has outstanding performance for the price. It only cost half what I paid for the Optoma two years ago. At this price it was a no-brainer to finally move to 1080p24.

Strong points are excellent skin tones, very sharp picture, out of the box performance - I only had to adjust colour, contrast and brightness by 1 or 2% at the most. The detail in dark areas of the picture is superb, take for example "The Fifth Element", the scene with the kids sitting outside the pyramid near the beginning. The kid on the right is wearing a black vest and that's all you see with the Optoma but with the X10 you can see the weave of the vest and dark brown stains on the hem of the vest (probably camel sh*t).

As far as black level is concerned, I'm projecting onto a standard white 92" screen with the manual iris almost closed. The image gives a perfectly acceptable black level (better than the Optoma) and is still bright.

So it basically beats my Optoma on picture quality but the Optoma is slightly quieter. In fact, if you have to use the high lamp mode on the X10, it sounds like a 747 taking off. OK, that's a bit of an exageration, but I wouldn't be able to live with the X10 if I had to use high lamp mode. Luckily, normal lamp mode is acceptable and bright enough so that you can close down the iris and boost black levels.

Yep, bought one about a month ago as a replacement for my Optoma HD72i. It has outstanding performance for the price. It only cost half what I paid for the Optoma two years ago. At this price it was a no-brainer to finally move to 1080p24.

Strong points are excellent skin tones, very sharp picture, out of the box performance - I only had to adjust colour, contrast and brightness by 1 or 2% at the most. The detail in dark areas of the picture is superb, take for example "The Fifth Element", the scene with the kids sitting outside the pyramid near the beginning. The kid on the right is wearing a black vest and that's all you see with the Optoma but with the X10 you can see the weave of the vest and dark brown stains on the hem of the vest (probably camel sh*t).

As far as black level is concerned, I'm projecting onto a standard white 92" screen with the manual iris almost closed. The image gives a perfectly acceptable black level (better than the Optoma) and is still bright.

So it basically beats my Optoma on picture quality but the Optoma is slightly quieter. In fact, if you have to use the high lamp mode on the X10, it sounds like a 747 taking off. OK, that's a bit of an exageration, but I wouldn't be able to live with the X10 if I had to use high lamp mode. Luckily, normal lamp mode is acceptable and bright enough so that you can close down the iris and boost black levels.

Thanks for the review. This PJ is on the top of my short list. But because Infocus is not on the AVS darlings list anymore there seems to be little info from users. But if Infocus' history proves anything I will not be disappointed if I purchase this projector.

Thanks for the review. This PJ is on the top of my short list. But because Infocus is not on the AVS darlings list anymore there seems to be little info from users. But if Infocus' history proves anything I will not be disappointed if I purchase this projector.

It has poor placement flexibility which might put some people off, but providing you can accomodate it, it's an excellent choice at a ridiculously low price. It's identical to the much more expensive models in the InFocus range, the only difference being it uses a new DarkChip 1. Even the manual in the box is for the IN82 !