I have a pretty big room at right around 4000 cu.ft. and no real good place to put a sub. The room is a rectangle in shape with two corners having openings, one corner has built in bookshelves, and the other corner is used for kids play area. The sub I am looking at getting is the SVS PB12-Plus/2 but becasue of size (WAF) and no real clear place to set it I had an idea. The wall that the tv is on seperates the family room from an unfinshed area that holds all my equipment and other things. If I was to place the sub inside the unfinished room right next to the wall would it still sound ok or would I be losing to much sound. The wall only has drywall on the finished side and has no insulation on it so there isn't that much to block the sound but I just don't know if this will work or not.

Any help would be appreciated.

What made you settle on this particular model? It is very big indeed, and unlike other supersized subs it doesnt really perform all that great. There are smaller, cheaper, and better sounding subs out there as far as I'm convinced.

CADOBHuK- I guess that is part of my question as well, is the SVS PB12-Plus/2 a good choice for my room. I had heard and read some pretty good things about this particular model but it isn't set in stone that this is the sub I have to have. I would love to have a JL fathom but I just can't spen that much money for a sub at this point. If you don't mind what sub(s) would you reccomend over the SVS at its price point or cheaper.

http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/images/Europe/factfile/Neuschwanstein_Castle_LOC_p.jpg (http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/CastleOverview.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/cadobhuk/a7s-450_arrives_3_small.jpg (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=640&osCsid=97b527d24cc4f88068e8bb261784b99f)

http://**********/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/afc6097a00d7dfbdc81ab0f8c3de1d05.jpg (http://**********/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=189&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37)

The castle and the dual mwf-15s should significantly outperform pb12+/2, if Craigsub's list holds any truth at all. The a7s-450 has been reported to be better than pb12+2 by a forum member who owns both.

What made you settle on this particular model? It is very big indeed, and unlike other supersized subs it doesnt really perform all that great.


...which of course you know due to your vast experience. :rolleyes:

...which of course you know due to your vast experience. :rolleyes:

.....with the Craigsub list.

FWIW, I think it's cute that Craig has a groupie.

To the OP: it's certainly not the best idea. Maybe if you cut out the drywall and fit it into the space you'd have a better result. But, honestly...before I cut any holes in the wall, I'd make sure that you get a decent (i.e., flat) response from the sub in that position. Picking one set position in a room, placing the sub there and hoping for a good result is a crap shoot at best. There's a bunch of options for subs in the $1k price range. SVS, HSU, eD, Epik and AV123 all have offerings to meet that budget. If you're looking to go the cutout route, you're probably best served by a front or side firing sub. Not sure a downfiring sub would work particularly well, but others probably know better than I.


Scott

.....with the Craigsub list.

FWIW, I think it's cute that Craig has a groupie.

To the OP: it's certainly not the best idea. Maybe if you cut out the drywall and fit it into the space you'd have a better result. But, honestly...before I cut any holes in the wall, I'd make sure that you get a decent (i.e., flat) response from the sub in that position. Picking one set position in a room, placing the sub there and hoping for a good result is a crap shoot at best. There's a bunch of options for subs in the $1k price range. SVS, HSU, eD, Epik and AV123 all have offerings to meet that budget. If you're looking to go the cutout route, you're probably best served by a front or side firing sub. Not sure a downfiring sub would work particularly well, but others probably know better than I.


Scott

Sounds like a perfect application for an Infinite Baffle DIY design. Just a thought.

The svs plus/2 is a great Ht subwoofer. Once you reach a certian level of performance the differences become smaller than one might think. I have no doubt that the ED 18 inch driver will be a better performer than the 12.3 from SVS but the SVS will satisfy most people. I personally would look for one used and save a bunch of money. I currently own 4 of the ED 18 inch drivers and hopefully by this weekend I will find out how much better they will be. We will see, of course comparing 4 18 inch drivers to 2 12's is not fair. I thought a saw a svs plus/2 on audiogon, worth the money. Anyway, the Svs shook my room like no other so far but my 18's I just sold had much more punch.

I would not put the subwoofer in a different room. Subwoofers do not need to be in corners to work well. I would figure out the best place in that room and the dimensions and go from there.

I have a pretty big room at right around 4000 cu.ft. and no real good place to put a sub. The room is a rectangle in shape with two corners having openings, one corner has built in bookshelves, and the other corner is used for kids play area. The sub I am looking at getting is the SVS PB12-Plus/2 but becasue of size (WAF) and no real clear place to set it I had an idea. The wall that the tv is on seperates the family room from an unfinshed area that holds all my equipment and other things. If I was to place the sub inside the unfinished room right next to the wall would it still sound ok or would I be losing to much sound. The wall only has drywall on the finished side and has no insulation on it so there isn't that much to block the sound but I just don't know if this will work or not.

Any help would be appreciated.

I agree with Scott, I would not recommend placing the subwoofer on the other side of a wall.... You will still get some reflections off the wall...

FWIW, the Plus/2 will probably do well in terms of output compared to many of the similarly priced subwoofers. However, the one thing that has always bothered me about the Plus/2 is the it's non-linear frequency response curve (measured ground plane).

...which of course you know due to your vast experience. :rolleyes:

Well yeah I'm going off the [gasp] List, but why, tell me, do you not put any faith into it? Do you suggest Craigsub did not properly test them, was not objective in his rating? In your opinion, pb12+/2 is as good as the Castle? Did you hear them both?
Do you have an actual point rather than "have you heard them yourself" tune?

...which of course you know due to your vast experience. :rolleyes:


plus 1

CADOBHuK,
better is so subjective. I have owned some very musical Subs in their day(M&K MX-5000THX) and for home theater the SVS was better. Again, I don't doubt the fact that the Ed's are more articulate(I hope so) and have the oomph for HT. I am just saying to knock the SVS until you try it, it is very good. All the subs on Craig's list are excellent, each with their own characteristics.

Well yeah I'm going off the [gasp] List, but why, tell me, do you not put any faith into it? Do you suggest Craigsub did not properly test them, was not objective in his rating?

Are you actually a Craig groupie and do you base all your sub knowledge on Craigs list the way you seem to?



In your opinion, pb12+/2 is as good as the Castle? Did you hear them both?
Do you have an actual point rather than "have you heard them yourself" tune?

No, I didn't hear either one of them which is why I refrained from speaking something eminating from shear ignorance like " ...unlike other supersized subs it doesnt really perform all that great."

I think the "have you heard them yourself" tune is still right in tune, but it's a tune you still can't hum after all this time. There may be a reason why a dozen or so regular folks on this forum keep telling you the same tune. We are hoping someday you might get it. We're forever optimists. :)

Thanks for all of the input so far everyone. I think I have come up with a solution to get the sub in the room. I don't feel like cutting into the wall if I don't have to. I have looked at some of the other subs mentioned above and I am not ruling anything out. I found some decent prices on the HSU VTF-3 HO and VTF-3 MK3 which would both be cheaper than the SVS and as CADOBHuK will like rank higher in points than the SVS. I don't really know much about how to read the list and what it all means so I was just looking at the total points and more imprtantly price. I will be using the sub for 90% HT and Gaming with 10% music, I know that makes a difference but I don't know which of all of these subs will give me the best bang for the buck in a room my size. I don't mind spending the extra money if the SVS is worth it but if I can save a few dollars and get an equal or better sub I am all for it.

Also I am looking to make the purchase soon so looking at a sub that is on backorder is not really something I am interested in. Thanks though CADOBHuK.

The Plus/2 is still an outstanding performer. I've done enough sub comparisons that I know what I like, but that can come from differing designs, sealed, servo, ported, dual, better blend with mains, musicality, etc. With capable subs you have to listen A/B/Cing a bunch of times to finally decide which you like, like better, want to own...specs give you a blue print, but it comes down to what's your preference.

Cad, people have been trying to tell you gently and not so gently, you don't have enough knowledge to make recommendations...all you can clearly say is I like my sub run off my soundcard. Great...after a couple of years and a few upgrades...then share your opinions...on gear that you've heard and by all means, be fair ;).

We are hoping someday you might get it. We're forever optimists. :)+1

Dustin, What you are describing would be better served by a self built IB sub. Even though the sound can travel through drywall, it looses all the detail and will just shake the wall. Listen to a big bass car system when you are outside the car. Pretty crappy. And you hear all the panels and light fixtures rattle. I was at a GTG with dual Fathoms and dual PB13s. It sounded great in the room. Then I went downstairs. The kitchen cabinets and recessed lighting fixtures were shaking violently. They made everything sound terrible.

If you have to, you can cut a hole and put a front firing (driver and port) flush with the outside wall. Then finish it up cleanly. But as an earlier post stated, that may prove to be the worst placement for your sub.

If you know how to do drywall or have a friend that does, look into the IB. Many here wish they had the type of space that would accommodate such a system.

I 2nd the IB sub idea, it seems like you have a good space for it allready. It can have high WAF (put a grill over it) and it dosen't eat up space in the main room. 4 15's or 18's an amp and eq and you are well on your way of rocking out your 4000ft of space.

google for the "cult of the ib"

Even if you don't do the IB thing. Really look into the sub EQ thing.

Have Fun!

Well yeah I'm going off the [gasp] List, but why, tell me, do you not put any faith into it? Do you suggest Craigsub did not properly test them, was not objective in his rating? In your opinion, pb12+/2 is as good as the Castle? Did you hear them both?
Do you have an actual point rather than "have you heard them yourself" tune?

I think Craig has done an awesome job combining the objective and subjective components of subwoofer testing. However, to use his words:

The purpose of this information is to help people to quickly look at a variety of subwoofers and get a pair of scores, some performance numbers, and some listening tests describing the characteristics of each subwoofer. Hopefully, this will provide some assistance when researching for a subwoofer purchase. There will be times that a lower rated sub will work better for someone than a higher rated sub. For example, size, or output, in a lower rated sub may make a difference. Listening preferences may also make a difference. If slam is valued over extension, some subs excel at the 30-60 Hz slam. For others, extension will be the most important issue.

One concern about assigning point values to this process is that we get too wrapped up in the total points a unit scores. The results here should be combined with testing done by other reviewers, and also, if possible, one should audition a product for him or herself.

I hope that our results are consistent with the results that other reviewers have gotten. Please, look at reviews done by The Perfect Vision, Stereophile, Sensible Sound, Secrets of HT, Audioholics ... etc ... and compare our results to theirs ... get ALL the opinions you can.

In defense of Mojomike, it is better to believe the null hypothesis (there are no difference between subwoofers) compared to the alternative hypothesis (one subwoofer is better than the other), unless there is substantial "proof".

I 2nd the IB sub idea, it seems like you have a good space for it allready. It can have high WAF (put a grill over it) and it dosen't eat up space in the main room. 4 15's or 18's an amp and eq and you are well on your way of rocking out your 4000ft of space.

google for the "cult of the ib"

Even if you don't do the IB thing. Really look into the sub EQ thing.

Have Fun!

I third the IB idea. :) It may have more WAF.

The IB does sound close to ideal for the situation.

As far as the "null hypothosis", I don't quite subscribe to that. Subs do have their differences, but as Craig correctly pointed out, some are better than others depending on the situation. In the case of the /Plus 2 sub, I've heard of so many old and new owners of this sub who are extremely pleased with it and the company behind it. I doubt they are all wrong.

As far as the "null hypothosis", I don't quite subscribe to that. Subs do have their differences, but as Craig correctly pointed out, some are better than others depending on the situation. In the case of the /Plus 2 sub, I've heard of so many old and new owners of this sub who are extremely pleased with it and the company behind it. I doubt they are all wrong.

I completely agree with you... My null hypothesis statement was meant to be more a metaphor, and not taken so literally. But you are correct. :)

My point is that peoeple are less likely to get crucified by saying that "it is difficult to say which is sub is better since each sub has their own strengths and weaknesses" versus "one sub is absolutely better than the other".

Okay, I'll shut up and go back to drinking my wine. :)

to the OP, is there no space for a "coffee table sub" nearfield? if you can do this, it will solve both your big room size and location problem ...

to the OP, is there no space for a "coffee table sub" nearfield? if you can do this, it will solve both your big room size and location problem ...


Or the subwoofer can be used as an endtable....

The endtable idea is what I am actually thinking about going with. There is a sectional in the room so I am thinking I could actually set it at one end as an endtable or possibly at the other end in the corner of where the couch and wall meet. If it was set there you wouldn't really notice it unless you were on the side of the room the kids play area is as it would be behind one side of the couch and against the wall.

The 13Endtable:

I would like to do a IB as I do have the space and can handle the drywall work and everything but I just don't know if that is what I want to do at this time. I just got done finishing the basement and really just want to relax in it for a while. It might be something to do down the road but for now I think I would like to just plug in a sub and enjoy what I have built to this point. There is also the fact that the wife has a long list of things for me to do now that I got the basement finished and I'm not sure when I would have the time to actually work on it.

With that said does anyone have any opinions on the HSU subs I mentioned earlier and the SVS?

HSU makes a great line of subs and can be had with nicer finishes than some of it's competitors.

The endtable idea is what I am actually thinking about going with. There is a sectional in the room so I am thinking I could actually set it at one end as an endtable or possibly at the other end in the corner of where the couch and wall meet. If it was set there you wouldn't really notice it unless you were on the side of the room the kids play area is as it would be behind one side of the couch and against the wall.

In that case I suggest a down firing sub. You can place a piece of glass on top to make it more of a table and protect the sub from drinks.

I have a +/2 behind my couch. It gives me a nice massage when I watch big LFE movies. I have placed my hand on it when it's belting out some high SPL and barely felt any vibration, but hard items do walk a little. That can be cured with some tack. A custom cut glass top with clear rubber pads would make it look really nice.

Hey Dustin,

I'd explore the IB idea for your space too.

p.s., don't listen to CADOBHuK. He's truly clueless. Unclued. Without clue. Clue deficient .... even moreso than me. :p


Tim

CADOBHuK actually recommended the Ed a7-450s which is not a bad thing, saying the SVS does not perform that great without ever auditioning it was not the best thing to do.

It's not just this. It's what is getting to be a long series of inexperienced recommendations and comments.

The wait on the castle is only less than a month. No matter how much everyone whines, I still don't see anything of value. Yeah many people have plus/2 and love it, it's probably better than 99% of subs out there but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of something else leaving it in the dust. I see something quite trustworthy reinforcing that possibility and I see nothing at all that opposes it in the sligthest of ways. Sticking to the best info we have until we have something better - thats how science works. So going off of that I give a suggestion that I believe will help a person get more out of his money. I don't care how many subs you have and how much of a "expert" you are, don't tell me to shush and dont tell me I haven't heard both the exact subs myself, unless you have.
So yeah, after all the noise, once again - get the Castle, unless a month of wait is absolutely unacceptable.

Sticking to the best info we have until we have something better - thats how science works.

(LOL) See that? That is exactly why I don't put you on ignore. I can always count on you saying something to give me a good laugh. You have now actually elevated your prowess for picking subwoofers to a science. May we call that the CADOBHuK Theorem? :p Usually, science would involve weighing the preponderence of evidence before making a conclusion, but in your case you appear to have been able to eliminate this part of the scientific process. I can find testimonies of dozens of happy owners of certain subs that you disdain to counter your opinion. Unlike yourself, these owners have set up their subs in actual systems and have spent hundreds of hours listening to them. Are you implying that following your recommendation is somehow more scientific than considering the opinions of scores of others who have actually have experience with their subs?

Here is a serious question. Have you actually ever listened to a decent sound system properly set up with a decent sub? I know you don't actually have one of your own yet and you are working on that. Have you at least heard one at a friends place or perhaps in a quality audio store? (CC or Best Buy do not count) Let's be honest, now.

No I haven't heard anything good except multiple good headphones that I've owned. Those were pretty high end though, one pair cost me over $1k, so I know what good sound is like, but only got interested in the speakers several months ago.

I can find testimonies of dozens of happy owners of certain subs that you disdain to counter your opinion. Unlike yourself, these owners have set up their subs in actual systems and have spent hundreds of hours listening to them.
So what, I can setup my a7s and think it is the Holy Grail of subwoofers, but if someone tested it against another $800 sub and it got creamed, I wouldn't even bother whining. Unless I had the other sub too and arrived at a different conclusion.
See, there are thousands of happy owners of Logitech z5500 subs and many of them would tell you "it's better than any HTIB sub I've heard" and "I can't imagine better bass" . Every product is good or bad depending on what you compare it to. So pb12 could be a lot better than klipsch's and JBL's, but that says nothing about where it stands compared to a Castle or even mwf-15.
Are you implying that following your recommendation is somehow more scientific than considering the opinions of scores of others who have actually have experience with their subs?
I'm saying that following Craig's ranking is more scientific than relying on comments like "I have this sub, it's good, you can't go wrong/don't need any better etc".
Usually, science would involve weighing the preponderance of evidence before making a conclusion, but in your case you appear to have been able to eliminate this part of the scientific process.
Craigsub's ranking is a pretty damn good evidence in my eyes. Or at least, the best evidence we have to rely on. If someone else tests those subs and ranks them in different order then we'll have a reason to doubt it, and I will refrain from making recommendations based on it until the truth is established. Until then, it looks like a pretty solid evidence to me.
May we call that the CADOBHuK Theorem?

May be we can call it mocking and discrediting me instead of having an actual opinion of your own or trying to create a logical argument.

May be we can call it mocking and discrediting me instead of having an actual opinion of your own or trying to create a logical argument.

My logical argument is to discredit you. You claim your opinion is based on science? I say it's based on a complete lack of science. For example, you with virtually no experience with the sound of speakers say "...unlike other supersized subs it doesnt really perform all that great" about the Plus/2. Then if one were to listen to a quote from someone like Sonnie from the Home Theater Shack who may actually know a thing or two about sound systems, he says "Well I have a pair of PC-Ultras and my Behemoth dual RL-p15 SoundSplinter DIY sub all in one small room... 1800 cubic feet. Even so... I was still extremely impressed with the PB12+2's", who should one believe?

It's my contention that your sense of black and white opinions based on zero personal experience borders on dangerous and misleading to those new folks who happen to blunder into this site seeking sound information. Unlike the regulars around here, they may falsely assume you actually know something about what you speak. Instead of making believe you know what you're talking about, why not just provide a link to Craig's thread and leave it at that?

Well because to a newcomer, the ranking with the mysterious scores and subwoofers they have never heard of, does not provide a clear picture of what to choose, and the inferior models get recommended 24/7 all over the forum, so after spending 2 minutes staring at the numbers he'll just order something from the old well known brand that he heard about from his friends or in another forum.
So to save him the trouble I just give him a suggestion based on my firm opinion formed over months of following everything on this forum.

Obviously you have some sort of incorrigible perverse compulsion to give advice about things you know nothing about. I'll just leave you with this suggestion: Get your own feet wet before giving lessons on how to swim. :cool:

http://www.msn-names.co.uk/emoticons/wall.gif

To the OP, 4000 cubic feet is considered a large room. If you only can get one sub then look at the more powerful subs as well(The SVS Plus/2 is a very powerful single sub). It depends on your listening habits. If you do place it nearfield then won't have to worry so much.

I know I am a total sub noob, but I believe I called the IB option first. :D

Subwoofer shootout at the OP house. Everybody bring a sub and we'll see.

I am not sure if I need to establish my credentials before I post but ... I would say IB would be ideal in this situation. You can't put any subwoofer behind drywall and get good sound from it. Anything you're doing by cutting into the drywall would be less effective than a IB setup.

Second ideal would be dual MFW-15s. Basically they provide enough output for the size room and having two will allow you placement flexibility to help avoid large peaks or large nulls. The downside is you have to wait to get them.

Nothing wrong with the SVS subwoofer but having owned a 12.3 driver 20-39 PC+ and HSU VTF-3 HO I concur with Craigsubs evalutation that the HSU is more articulate. Since he feels the MFW-15 is again more articulate than the HSU I believe duals to be the superior choice over the SVS for a variety of reasons including placement flexibility, similar output, greater articulation.

Obviously you have some sort of incorrigible perverse compulsion to give advice about things you know nothing about. I'll just leave you with this suggestion: Get your own feet wet before giving lessons on how to swim. :cool:

"Get yourself on a stage before talking about which music is better."
"Having no personal experience with" is not the same thing as "knowing nothing about". I know about many things I havent held in my hands, and I'm still confident in what I know about them.

http://www.msn-names.co.uk/emoticons/wall.gif+1.
People, please don't quote CADOBHuK's inane comments. I have the youngster in my ignore list, but when you quote him, I have to avert my eyes from your post.

I just want to thank everyone for their comments and suggestions on my situation. I received my SVS PB12-Plus/2 and I must say it is incredible. I am sure that the othere subs listed above are every bit as good and maybe even better but I couldn't be happier with the SVS to this point. Like I had mentioned I have a pretty large room and this thing just fills it like I never imagined. I still have some placement testing to do and need to properly calibrate which will only help matters but for the price, performance (so far), and the speed at which I got it I don't think you can go wrong with SVS.

Glad you like your new sub. I'm sure it will supply you with years of bass enjoyment, provided you don't go bass-crazy like the rest of us and end up upgrading to more subwoofage than any sane person needs ;).

Dustin,
Keep in mind that if you are limited on where you can place the sub, consider some sort of EQ (BFD, SMS, etc.) to smooth out any peaks or dips in your primary listening areas.