I currently have a PB10NSD which I am selling to a friend. I have been very interested in the Epik Castle, MFW-15, and the a7s-450, but unfortunately I have a time crunch, and a size restriction.

The sub must fit below my screen, which is about 20" off the ground. My PB10NSD barely fits there standing up, but fits with room to spare on its side.

I think my current best option is the NEW PB12NSD. I can lay it on its side, and it will still fit under my screen just fine.

My net increase in cost will be about $250. My question is this... with the new redesign of the PB12NSD, will I see a SIGNIFICANT improvement?

For reference, my dedicated theater is small, about 15x16x8, so roughly 1900 cubic feet.

Thanks!

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/fst96se/DSC03293.jpg

I'd get the Knight for the same price, laying on its side it'd be 18" tall. The wait time is getting really short for epiks, only about a month.
MWF-15 would also fit but the wait time is crazy on that one.
a7s-450 would not fit since its 22.3" each side

I dunno why you mentioned the Castle since its in a different price range, I guess you meant the Knight.
If no wait time is acceptable, then pb12 will be an obvious improvement
Btw, what size screen is that?

I currently have a PB10NSD which I am selling to a friend. I have been very interested in the Epik Castle, MFW-15, and the a7s-450, but unfortunately I have a time crunch, and a size restriction.

The sub must fit below my screen, which is about 20" off the ground. My PB10NSD barely fits there standing up, but fits with room to spare on its side.

I think my current best option is the NEW PB12NSD. I can lay it on its side, and it will still fit under my screen just fine.

My net increase in cost will be about $250. My question is this... with the new redesign of the PB12NSD, will I see a SIGNIFICANT improvement?

For reference, my dedicated theater is small, about 15x16x8, so roughly 1900 cubic feet.

Thanks!


Hey, nice room! Looks like a great, dedicated place to watch movies.

Now for the PB10/PB12 debate. I've talked to Ed Mullen at SVS numerous times about the PB10-NSD and the PB12-NSD, and it seems like the PB12-NSD does pretty much what the PB10 does but more of it. It can also dig a bit deeper, as it is tuned at 18hz, while the PB10 is tuned at 20hz. Whether this increase is worthwhile to you is your decision. I would think you'd certainly notice a difference, but it might not completely blow you away. My recommendation is to e-mail Ed at SVS. He'll give you a much better idea of what would truly represent an "upgrade" for you.

agreed with lalakers. when you choose to upgrade, jump a few steps higher (if not to the top)

You guys are right, I did mean the Epik Knight!

Unfortunately, a "jump to the top" just isn't possible right now. My budget for a sub is what I sold mine for, plus a few hundred bucks, and the PB12NSD and Epik Knight fall into that category. Fortunately, they both will also fit under my screen.

The wait times kill me though. I need a sub now, since mine is leaving tomorrow! I can wait a couple of weeks for shipping, but waits of a month or more just can't be done. I don't have a "backup" sub.

Craigsub is going to be testing the "NEW" Pb12NSD soon, and I think I should hold off ordering until then. SVS may have a surprise in store for Epik, ED, and av123.

You guys are right, I did mean the Epik Knight!

Unfortunately, a "jump to the top" just isn't possible right now. My budget for a sub is what I sold mine for, plus a few hundred bucks, and the PB12NSD and Epik Knight fall into that category. Fortunately, they both will also fit under my screen.

The wait times kill me though. I need a sub now, since mine is leaving tomorrow! I can wait a couple of weeks for shipping, but waits of a month or more just can't be done. I don't have a "backup" sub.

Craigsub is going to be testing the "NEW" Pb12NSD soon, and I think I should hold off ordering until then. SVS may have a surprise in store for Epik, ED, and av123.

I've been looking for a descent sub for a while now and keep coming back to SVS, mainly because there is no wait. (When I finally decide to pull the trigger, I don't want to find out that what I have decided to buy has a month or longer wait.) What is the news on the "New" pb12. I haven't noticed anything on their web site about it. Is it shipping right now or is this something in the works?

I've been looking for a descent sub for a while now and keep coming back to SVS, mainly because there is no wait. (When I finally decide to pull the trigger, I don't want to find out that what I have decided to buy has a month or longer wait.) What is the news on the "New" pb12. I haven't noticed anything on their web site about it. Is it shipping right now or is this something in the works?

The PB-12 NSD has been revised. The revised PB-12 NSD is shipping now, there is no wait for the revised PB-12 NSD. I believe SVS has been shipping the revised PB-12 NSD for at least 6 weeks and probably more like a couple of months. Ed Mullen can tell you exactly when the revised PB-12 NSD started shipping.

You guys are right, I did mean the Epik Knight!

Unfortunately, a "jump to the top" just isn't possible right now. My budget for a sub is what I sold mine for, plus a few hundred bucks, and the PB12NSD and Epik Knight fall into that category. Fortunately, they both will also fit under my screen.

The wait times kill me though. I need a sub now, since mine is leaving tomorrow! I can wait a couple of weeks for shipping, but waits of a month or more just can't be done. I don't have a "backup" sub.

Craigsub is going to be testing the "NEW" Pb12NSD soon, and I think I should hold off ordering until then. SVS may have a surprise in store for Epik, ED, and av123.

It might come closer to them than the old version, but I'm not waiting for a "surprise".. If you're willing to hold off for two weeks or more - until he gets and finishes testing it - you should place an order on the Knight and cancel it if you need to.

The PB-12 NSD has been revised. The revised PB-12 NSD is shipping now, there is no wait for the revised PB-12 NSD. I believe SVS has been shipping the revised PB-12 NSD for at least 6 weeks and probably more like a couple of months. Ed Mullen can tell you exactly when the revised PB-12 NSD started shipping.

Thanks for the information. I had seen the "new" comment on the website. I guess I just did not realize that this was a newer version than the one that Craig had tested. Without serious changes in the amp or enclosure, I do not see that it would be a drastic improvement. So, the advice to the OP here is probably right, that the Epik knight would probably far out-perform the pb12.

Have you thought about getting one of SVS "tube" subs. It looks like you could easily place one on either side of the tower speakers. It would be corner loaded which also helps to increase bass levels, and for the same price you could get one of the more powerful cylinder subs from SVS, Granted they are taller but have a much smaller footprint.

Thanks for the information. I had seen the "new" comment on the website. I guess I just did not realize that this was a newer version than the one that Craig had tested. Without serious changes in the amp or enclosure, I do not see that it would be a drastic improvement. So, the advice to the OP here is probably right, that the Epik knight would probably far out-perform the pb12.

Supposedly the amp in the 12-NSD has been significantly revised and according to those that have heard it it should perform similarly to a tested Hsu 3mk3, which is a VERY respectable score.

That said it could, but it shouldn't be the only thing the OP consider.

Because my room is almost exactly square, corner loading my sub resulted in a MASSIVE null right at my preferred listening position. That is why I have the sub placed under the screen, it improves things dramatically.

If you can't wait get the SVS. Otherwise the EPIC or AV123 would appear to be the better choice in the "Bang for the Buck" - EPIC if you prefer the deep down bass - MFW-15 if you prefer the "slam" of the 30-70 hz range.

Looks like a nice room I assume you have it treated which makes a big difference for all sound - also if you haven't measured the response it may be there is a better spot in the room to place the subwoofer.

Supposedly the amp in the 12-NSD has been significantly revised and according to those that have heard it it should perform similarly to a tested Hsu 3mk3, which is a VERY respectable score.

That said it could, but it shouldn't be the only thing the OP consider.

I have similar concerns as the OP about size, sound, output, and price. The SVS website seems to ephasize the updated driver, which was why I made my previous comment that without changes in amp/enclosure, I would not expect much of a difference. There is a comment in the Craigsub thread about Craig arranging to get a new amp from SVS. However, I have found no comment about a re-evaluation/testing or a re-ranking of the pb-12 based on the new amp. If he did receive the new amp, this has not apparently effected the ranking of the sub (at least not as far as I can determine from a search of the thread). So, whatever changes have been made, if they are significant, they do not seem to be reflected in the Craigsub rankings. This was why I was seeking more specifics about the SVS update. Also, there are comments about the pb-10 and pb-12 (whether "new" or old I am not sure) being virtually indistinguishable for HT. This information is certainly relavant to the question of the OP.

No, I have not heard the "New" pb-12, nor have I heard many of the other subs in the Craigsub thread, but neither do I think that most people who post on this website have done so. This is precisely what makes this website and threads like Craig's so useful. Not everyone can hear every product out there before they make choices. We all have to make choices based on what we can surmise from the available information. This was what I was trying to do, while at the same time trying to concur with the other comments in this thread, that the Epik knight would likely be a good choice as well.

I have similar concerns as the OP about size, sound, output, and price. The SVS website seems to ephasize the updated driver, which was why I made my previous comment that without changes in amp/enclosure, I would not expect much of a difference. There is a comment in the Craigsub thread about Craig arranging to get a new amp from SVS. However, I have found no comment about a re-evaluation/testing or a re-ranking of the pb-12 based on the new amp. If he did receive the new amp, this has not apparently effected the ranking of the sub (at least not as far as I can determine from a search of the thread). So, whatever changes have been made, if they are significant, they do not seem to be reflected in the Craigsub rankings. This was why I was seeking more specifics about the SVS update. Also, there are comments about the pb-10 and pb-12 (whether "new" or old I am not sure) being virtually indistinguishable for HT. This information is certainly relavant to the question of the OP.

No, I have not heard the "New" pb-12, nor have I heard many of the other subs in the Craigsub thread, but neither do I think that most people who post on this website have done so. This is precisely what makes this website and threads like Craig's so useful. Not everyone can hear every product out there before they make choices. We all have to make choices based on what we can surmise from the available information. This was what I was trying to do, while at the same time trying to concur with the other comments in this thread, that the Epik knight would likely be a good choice as well.


Theo,

I wasn't referring to you or indicting your opinion in any way. My comment about "those that have heard it" was directly relating to the evaluation a user named RossandWendy made about his impressions regarding the revised NSD. According to him, he thought it preformed in the same league as the Hsu, or much improved. Additionally, on the Craigsub thread, Craig alluded to this and also made mention that he respected Ross's opinion. That is all I was going on.

I too think Craig's list is very useful and superb data point for us average users that can't afford to demo all these ID companies for ourselves.

As far as I know Craig should be getting the revised SVS shortly (or he already has it, can't remember) but I would totally expect it to hit very near the Hsu. Obviously nothing is guaranteed and even if it does perform a little better, it might not even match the level of performance you or others are looking for.

I have similar concerns as the OP about size, sound, output, and price. The SVS website seems to ephasize the updated driver, which was why I made my previous comment that without changes in amp/enclosure, I would not expect much of a difference. There is a comment in the Craigsub thread about Craig arranging to get a new amp from SVS. However, I have found no comment about a re-evaluation/testing or a re-ranking of the pb-12 based on the new amp. If he did receive the new amp, this has not apparently effected the ranking of the sub (at least not as far as I can determine from a search of the thread). So, whatever changes have been made, if they are significant, they do not seem to be reflected in the Craigsub rankings. This was why I was seeking more specifics about the SVS update. Also, there are comments about the pb-10 and pb-12 (whether "new" or old I am not sure) being virtually indistinguishable for HT. This information is certainly relavant to the question of the OP.

No, I have not heard the "New" pb-12, nor have I heard many of the other subs in the Craigsub thread, but neither do I think that most people who post on this website have done so. This is precisely what makes this website and threads like Craig's so useful. Not everyone can hear every product out there before they make choices. We all have to make choices based on what we can surmise from the available information. This was what I was trying to do, while at the same time trying to concur with the other comments in this thread, that the Epik knight would likely be a good choice as well.


I am almost certain that Craig Chase has not been able to test the new PB-12 NSD. The last sub that Craig tested was the disappointing VMPS that cost about $1,650. It might be another 3 weeks before Craig can evaluate and post his findings on the revised PB-12 NSD.

From what I have read, the revised PB-12 NSD is significantly improved over the original version.

Craig does not have the new PB12 yet. I think he said he will get one in about 2 weeks.

Theo,

I wasn't referring to you or indicting your opinion in any way. My comment about "those that have heard it" was directly relating to the evaluation a user named RossandWendy made about his impressions regarding the revised NSD. According to him, he thought it preformed in the same league as the Hsu, or much improved. Additionally, on the Craigsub thread, Craig alluded to this and also made mention that he respected Ross's opinion. That is all I was going on.

I too think Craig's list is very useful and superb data point for us average users that can't afford to demo all these ID companies for ourselves.

As far as I know Craig should be getting the revised SVS shortly (or he already has it, can't remember) but I would totally expect it to hit very near the Hsu. Obviously nothing is guaranteed and even if it does perform a little better, it might not even match the level of performance you or others are looking for.

I'm sorry that I misinterpreted your comment about those who have heard the new pb-12. I have read a lot of comments directed at people in my situation who are doing the best they can to make an informed decision.

My quandary is that my needs are very much like the OP's. Size, sound and bang for the buck. I am also very impressed with the fit-and-finish and the "bullet-proof" reputation of SVS which is why I keep coming back to them, even after looking into Epik, ED and AV123. I am wanting to purchase a sub by the end of the month and the fact that SVS has several subs that I am considering actually in stock makes them particularly appealing. If the pb-12 is likely to move up the Craigsub list several places with this new amp, then that definitely makes it more appealing and worth the extra money over the pb-10.

Thanks for the information. I need to do some more searches on the upgrades to the pb-12. If I like what I read I might pull the trigger sooner rather than later.

The PB12-NSD has about 60% (~4 dB) more maximum output capability than the PB10-NSD. So dual co-located PB10-NSD would still outgun a single PB12-NSD.

The PB12-NSD does indeed dig deeper than the PB10-NSD; system tuning is actually about 16-17 Hz (I verified it today).

Craig's current (older) PB12-NSD does not have the latest amp. We will be shipping his new PB12-NSD Monday or Tuesday of this coming week.

The PB12-NSD has about 60% (~4 dB) more maximum output capability than the PB10-NSD. So dual co-located PB10-NSD would still outgun a single PB12-NSD.

The PB12-NSD does indeed dig deeper than the PB10-NSD; system tuning is actually about 16-17 Hz (I verified it today).

Craig's current (older) PB12-NSD does not have the latest amp. We will be shipping his new PB12-NSD Monday or Tuesday of this coming week.

Without giving away any trade secrets, could you tell me what kind of improvement one could expect with the new amp? Is it an improvement in accuracy or extension or, perhaps, has there been an increase in dynamic headroom or something along those lines? I need a front fire/front ported sub and one the size of the PB-12 is about as large as I can accommodate. Since size matters, I want to find the best performing sub for my situation.

Without giving away any trade secrets, could you tell me what kind of improvement one could expect with the new amp? Is it an improvement in accuracy or extension or, perhaps, has there been an increase in dynamic headroom or something along those lines? I need a front fire/front ported sub and one the size of the PB-12 is about as large as I can accommodate. Since size matters, I want to find the best performing sub for my situation.Theo, this is just regurgitating what I've read, buy Ilkka's measurments are posted on HTS, old and new, there's quite an improvement in overall output. rossandwendy felt the sub was much more articulate and linear in the upper bass (something the previous rev was criticized for). Craig will chime in when he's had a minute or two with the sub.