I just spoke with Oceanic Time Warner Cable in Hawaii and they said that 3rd party cable boxes are not authorized for use on their network. This was in reference to a privately owned Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300 HD DVR I purchased commercially and wanted to activate for use. They said my only option was to lease the same exact box from them and they would be happy to offer me a package deal????? WTF.

Their words "Even though the box is compatible we do not accept 3rd party equipment"

I know this is illegal but they won't budge. Any ideas?

The open access policy has not been enforced, if you notice you will only see cable boxes on places like e-bay, I haven't seen any retail stores offering any boxes, at this point in time you will not be able to use that box.

Call this a fairly expensive lesson (don't know what you paid) but always ask the cable-co if they will activate a 3rd party box first!!

Seriously? People just roll over and accept that TWC is breaking the law? You've all see this before.

Under the Telecommunications Act of 1996, Pub. L. No. 104-104, 110 Stat. 56, Section 629(a), codified at 47 U.S.C. §549(a): the Communications Act Congress authorized the Federal Communications Commission to adopt regulations to “assure the commercial availability, to consumers of multichannel video programming and other services offered over multichannel video systems, of converter boxes, interactive communications equipment, and other equipment used by consumers to access multichannel video programming and other services offered over multichannel video programming systems, from manufacturers, retailers, and other vendors not affiliated with any multichannel video programming distributor.”

That box is not "commercially available" in the US. The only boxes they are currently required to activate will have cable card slots.

Yeah, I think for DVRs that limits you to one of the TiVo models. I don't think SA ever sold their DVRs to the public, at least not the models TWC uses, IIRC.

Thanks, TWC here in Hawaii said they won't support any device not owned and leased by them. That includes Tivo I assume. The tech rep said there is no option to received digital cable through them without leasing a set-top box.

CableCard is the manner in which privately-owned set-top boxes are supported. Some smaller cable companies have temporary waivers from the requirement to offer CableCard. If your privately-owned set-top box doesn't support CableCard, then you're out of luck.

Thanks, TWC here in Hawaii said they won't support any device not owned and leased by them. That includes Tivo I assume. The tech rep said there is no option to received digital cable through them without leasing a set-top box.

The cablecards used in the TIVO will be owned by them.

I understand the CableCard is maintained and owned by TWC. I'm fine with that, I don't want to lease equipment, that's all. My set-top box supports CableCard as does Tivo. My point is that TWC will not provide CableCards to hardware not leased through them. I thought that was illegal.

Do you have the 8300HD or 8300HDC?

This is the 8300HD version.

My point is that TWC will not provide CableCards to hardware not leased through them. I thought that was illegal.Unless they have a waiver, they are required to provide CableCards (if they have them available, of course, and if not, they need to put them on order and wait for resupply). They can, of course, make you lease the CableCards.

It is not illegal for them not to provide CableCards. Rather it is a violation. Big difference. It is like the difference between speeding and burglary.

Seriously? People just roll over and accept that TWC is breaking the law? You've all see this before.


This is not just TW most cable-co's will not activate these boxes, I have seen Tivo boxes with cable card slots activated by my local Comcast.

I understand the CableCard is maintained and owned by TWC. I'm fine with that, I don't want to lease equipment, that's all. My set-top box supports CableCard as does Tivo. My point is that TWC will not provide CableCards to hardware not leased through them. I thought that was illegal.


The 8300HD is not a cable card box.

It is either;

a) gray market (re-imported from Canada)
b) stolen
c) unreturned cable company owned equipment

If Oceanic TWC offers cable cards, they will lease them for use in a Tivo type box.

Seriously? People just roll over and accept that TWC is breaking the law?

And COMCAST does precisely the same thing. What are the alternatives, write to George Bush's FCC and say PLEASE do your job and REGULATE according to LAW? (I can hear the giggling in Washington now!) Or else hire a team of lawyers file a 3 year lawsuit against the Federal Government and have the Supreme Court tell you that you cannot sue the federal government?

The ONLY thing the FCC is interested in is that nobody be allowed to "talk dirty" on TV! Period!

The cable companies are, de facto, COMPLETELY UNREGULATED and can do precisely what they please and thus they DO....precisely what they please.

And we pay more and more and more and MORE.

It's a philosophical issue, surely, but the reality is that the law is as the law does. Reasonable people disagree about whether or not any number of things the cable companies do are illegal. "Which perspective is right?" is a pointless question: What matters is "Which perspective will affect what I encounter as a consumer?" And zip2play is completely correct about this: MSOs are not required to activate privately-owned set-top boxes. As bfoster mentioned, they're only required to provide CableCards. If your privately-owned set-top box doesn't take CableCards then you need to get one that does.

We consumers have the ultimate power: We can manifest our dissatisfaction in the manner in which it will have unquestionable and substantial impact on our service providers: We can do without. That hurts our suppliers more than anything else we can do, and communicates our dissatisfaction to them better than any other means. And if enough people feel as we do, then that will drive our service providers to engage in us another manner. And then we win!

We consumers have the ultimate power: We can manifest our dissatisfaction in the manner in which it will have unquestionable and substantial impact on our service providers: We can do without.

Unfortunately, decent TV for some rises to the level of an absolute necessity like a water supply. Provision of these commodities is often by monopoly and thus the comination of absolute need + monopoly control requires regualtion by society or disaster is the likely result.

Some of us simply cannot "do without" a TV picture to get the cable companies to fall into compliance. Television must CEASE being an unregulated monopoly in the areas where there are no alternatives except throwing out our nice shiny HDTV's.
IF this cannot be done then intervention is required by a Congress sensitive to the needs of consumers and an FCC that will actually do it's JOB.

With cable companies, a good analogy to being forced to rent their boxes and their boxes only is akin to being forced to rent light bulbs and appliances from an Electric Company, or sinks, faucets, and plumbing from the Water Company.

Unfortunately, decent TV for some rises to the level of an absolute necessity like a water supply.It's simply not true. People may think of it as a necessity, but it isn't. The regulations and the actuality of how service is offered reflect the reality that television, beyond local broadcast channels and public access channels, is not a necessity.

For folks who cannot resonate with this, DVDs may be the best answer.

Provision of these commodities is often by monopolyThis is not the case in the vast majority of municipalities nationwide. Often people who see "monopoly" are artificially restricting their view of the competition based on their own personal circumstances, but again, the regulations and the actuality of how service is offered reflect the reality. There are very few is any municipalities in the country where there aren't three competing suppliers available, the local cable incumbent, Dish Network and DirecTV. According to the law, that is sufficient competition for this marketplace.

IF this cannot be done then intervention is required by a Congress sensitive to the needs of consumers and an FCC that will actually do it's JOB.I vigorously disagree. There is no need for government interference, and no government action should be taken, in response to people who have raised television to an unfounded level of necessity in their own minds.

Cable TV is not a necessity. Period.

Unfortunately, decent TV for some rises to the level of an absolute necessity like a water supply.

For who? Are people going to drop dead if they can't get the Food Network?

I fully admit I like cable TV and watch it every day, and I'd be pissed if I couldn't get it, but I'm not going to say it's equal to my water supply, or electricity, for crying out loud.

For many millennia mankind operated quite well without electricity. When it was invented people began to like it and cities began to be wired for it. So, something with zero existence in 1850 became a necessary commodity by 1950 and since, LIKE CABLE, was distributed by wiring systems owned by companies. The requirement of the wiring system made the electric utility a MONOPOLY...and this MONOPOLY became controlled by law for the public interest.


Is there an alternative to cable?

bicker says YES in most municipalities. Well let me illustrate the situation in the LARGEST municipality in the United States, metro New York. High rise apartment buildings and whole cities denying access to anything but ONE cable company (no unsightly dishes sprouting like fungi on the Southwest facade,) dismal OTA reception because of hideous multipath issues. Net result is that by a huge majority it is CABLE or NO TV.

Again an analogy on "alternatives"...should electricity delivery NOT be considered a monopoly because anyone can buy his own generator.

Or water: ANYONE can catch rainwater?

How about natural gas? After all ANYONE can put a propane tank in a closet.

Or railroads, buses, cabs?: After all, ANYONE can walk.

The only standard under which cable is not a monopoly is a standard which assumes there is no such thing as a monopoly.

<<If there are areas where one has the choice of TWO unregulated entities...that is OLIGOPOLY where one phone call (or better yet, a personal meeting under a noisy bridge) between 2 CEO's establishes the price.

But until Verizon FIOS moves in I have ONE choice and ONE CHOICE only, and this is a situation that I share with my closest 10 million neighbors! I PRAY for just OLIGOPOLY, competition is beyond the pale!

Cable TV is a utility plain and simple and those who believe utilities should be free to operate in society as they choose have one philosophical bent...others (most) believe utilities need to answer to social demands, or shut down!

For those who consider TV NOT necessary, then of course the choice of dealing with a rapacious cable company is simple...throw out the set, rent DVD's or live with 3 local stations. For those who like to catch water, or live in the dark after the sun goes down, or risk a propane explosion, again easy choices.

Yeah... pretty much everything you just put there is a choice, not a requirement. Don't like it? Move. Sheesh, want the gub'ment to wipe your butt for you too?

To the OP, I would find it hard to believe that TW won't bring you a CableCard, sounds like a breakdown in communication somewhere.

What commodore_dude said.

And TV is just TV. It's entertainment.

To the OP, I would find it hard to believe that TW won't bring you a CableCard, sounds like a breakdown in communication somewhere.

As was indicated, the box the OP has is a pre-CableCARD Scientific Atlanta DVR. Except in rare cases, these aren't sold to end users by US cable operators. Hardly a surprise that they won't activate it.

Sorry, OP, but caveat emptor. Should have checked the many threads just like this that have preceded yours before throwing down for it. Hopefully the next person to get this bright idea will read your thread first, before throwing away money...

So, something with zero existence in 1850 became a necessary commodity by 1950 and since, LIKE CABLE, was distributed by wiring systems owned by companies.Perhaps by 2050, cable television may be a necessity. Probably not.

The requirement of the wiring system made the electric utility a MONOPOLY...and this MONOPOLY became controlled by law for the public interest.And notice that cable television is not treated as a monopoly. That's because it isn't a monopoly. This is a nation of laws, and our courts make that decision, perhaps unfortunately, but not consumers.

Is there an alternative to cable? bicker says YES in most municipalities. Well let me illustrate the situation in the LARGEST municipality in the United States, metro New York.My brother lived in New York City and had DirecTV.

I understand that you're frustrated, and I'm sorry, but this is the reality.

And notice that cable television is not treated as a monopoly. That's because it isn't a monopoly. This is a nation of laws, and our courts make that decision, perhaps unfortunately, but not consumers.
Well it WAS rather tightly regulated as a monopoly by law and by fact, even to the point of how much could be charged.. But with the advent of Ronald Reagan's FCC the law was ignored...it is probably still on the books, perhaps heavily amended by now.


And notice that cable television is not treated as a monopoly. That's because it isn't a monopoly. This is a nation of laws, and our courts make that decision, perhaps unfortunately, but not consumers.
No, CONGRESS makes that decision by passing laws...the courts are there to INTERPRET the laws and the Executive is there to see it is carried out.
For cable regulation, congress has slipped a bit, the courts have pretty much stood out of the way and the executive has breached the law by NOT regulating as the various laws requires...except to try to guarantee the kiddies don't hear the seven evil words.


My brother lived in New York City and had DirecTV.
Your brother than is a very lucky man because everyone I know in NYC is stuck with cable, but at least, unlike most, there is a choice between Time-Warner and RCN. I don't even get THAT choice.


Yeah... pretty much everything you just put there is a choice, not a requirement. Don't like it? Move.
So then good cable reception at a fair price, water delivery by municipalities, gas and electicity delivery by utilities, and transportation infrastructure are all JUST CHOICES that can be readily replaced by other choices???? What cave does that appy to. or what village in Nepal?

If one wants to take a Panglossian view of "what is is right"...well, I can say nothing other than that's NOT the way I think.

BTW,
Saying "if you don't like it MOVE" is perhaps the lamest thing that the lame ever type...it really went out with the 50's. This is an AV forum...what is the expected response to "I get a snowy picture, what can I do?" Is it "Throw out the set and read, MOVE, or learn to like SNOW?"

Well it WAS rather tightly regulated as a monopoly by law and by fact, even to the point of how much could be charged.. But with the advent of Ronald Reagan's FCC the law was ignored...it is probably still on the books, perhaps heavily amended by now.Indeed, this is the reality I've been trying to relay to you. The regulation of the industry has changed to reflect changes in the industry itself, and changes in the American Perspective on commerce, changes substantially introduced during the 1980s.

No, CONGRESS makes that decision by passing laws...the courts are there to INTERPRET the laws and the Executive is there to see it is carried out.And that's what is happening. The FCC has always been responsible for defining how the laws were to be implemented. Again, I'm sorry you're frustrated with the results of the passage of time, in this regard. However, I must point out that your personal evaluations of Congress, the courts and the White House are just that: personal. They are each doing what they believe is right, and generally what they're doing actually does reflect the will of the people. Reasonable people disagree about these things. What they're doing matches what I believe they should be doing and doesn't match what you believe they should be doing. You perspective is valid and respectable, as is our perspective. The only difference is that our perspective prevails. And again, I'm sorry for that.

BTW,Saying "if you don't like it MOVE" is perhaps the lamest thing that the lame ever type...it really went out with the 50's. That's why I don't resort to that, but I understand where commodore_mode is coming from. It is a valid perspective though, even if not particularly "helpful". Do you prefer my approach? "I'm sorry that you're frustrated." I don't see any other options. It is not reasonable to expect people who disagree with you to agree with you. We actually believe your perspective is the wrong one, and are happy that it isn't the perspective that prevails. Whether it's expressed compassionately (as I hope my expressions are received) or curtly (i.e., "then move"), I'm not sure really matters much.

We could go back and forth ad infinitum about whether the cable companies are breaking, bending or ignoring the laws on the books not to mention the SPIRIT of these laws (basically no bundling of mandatory private equipment with cable rentals) with no resolution.
But time is valuable so I will ask just one question:

Bicker, Do you work for a cable company?

Ok, now that we're way off the topic I understand that TV is a luxury and we basically live with monopolistic competition in everything we do. My problem was that my TV is an older plasma without a TV tuner. I haven't found a decent quality external tuner and my best option was a set-top box which I don't want to rent. I offered TW my business to legally pay for digital cable through a purchased, compatible set-top box. They won't activate it so they won't get my business, simple.

I'll continue downloading my TV shows and bypassing the system. Bit-torrent is my only provider now...

We could go back and forth ad infinitum about whether the cable companies are breaking, bending or ignoring the laws on the books not to mention the SPIRIT of these laws (basically no bundling of mandatory private equipment with cable rentals) with no resolution.That's not the case. The resolution is simple. Look around you. The reality is a reflection of the will of our society, even it is not a reflection of any specific person's personal will.

But time is valuable so I will ask just one question: Bicker, Do you work for a cable company?No and I never have been. Rather, I'm an American, and believe in our capitalist system, and our system of laws. I don't believe in transgression for personal gain. I recognize that people have two sets of priorities, the NOW (this month's cable bill) and the LATER (our 401k balances), and the two priorities conflict, so that often has us "speaking with forked tongue". However, the reality we experience is a reflection of an appropriate balance between these two sets of priorities.

I offered TW my business to legally pay for digital cable through a purchased, compatible set-top box. They won't activate it so they won't get my business, simple.


But you bought a 8300HD, which is not a cablecard compatible box (the 8300HDC is the one you should have bought, or a TiVo3 or whatever.) So even if they gave you a cable card, it would not have worked. If you had a cablecard box and they wouldn't give you one, then maybe you'd have a legit gripe.

And no, they are not obligated to activate an 8300HD that isn't their own. NOWHERE is there any law that says they have to do that.

What you want to do is the equivalent of taking an older car into a dealership and expecting them to install the same engine that they put in the new cars.

But you bought a 8300HD, which is not a cablecard compatible box (the 8300HDC is the one you should have bought, or a TiVo3 or whatever.) So even if they gave you a cable card, it would not have worked. If you had a cablecard box and they wouldn't give you one, then maybe you'd have a legit gripe.

TW did not know what type of Box I was getting. I only told them I wanted a Cable Card to activate a 3rd party box and they said no.

In terms of the 8300HD, they have the capability to activate the box without a cablecard but they won't. That's fine, I'll sell it on ebay and get my money back and continue download tv shows on bit-torrent.

TW did not know what type of Box I was getting. I only told them I wanted a Cable Card to activate a 3rd party box and they said no.

No offense, but none of that was really clear at first. It sounded like you were first demanding they activate some random box, and then demanding that they supply a cable card to your non-cable card box.

If they flat out won't give you a card, then by all means look for another source (which I guess you have.)

Also, how many people did you talk to? It's possible you got some clueless tech, especially if you just talked to one guy.

That's not the case. The resolution is simple. Look around you. The reality is a reflection of the will of our society, even it is not a reflection of any specific person's personal will.

So the fact that a monopoly cable company DEMANDS that only its boxes be rented in order to receive a television picture seems to you vaguely like the will of the people???? Why, because it IS...as in WHAT IS, IS RIGHT?

Criminal behavior, just because it is not punished does not rise to the "will of the people." Nor is a criminal less a criminal because he hasn't been CAUGHT and jailed yet.

Because a governmental agency like the FCC chooses to look the other way when laws protecting the public are violated is not a valid reason to assume that the public has given its assent, but rather that the government agencies are complicit in the criminality.

And to go to the top, a president who refuses to demand his agencies obey the laws of the land is not operating as an agent of the people but as a criminal.

No, the public has most certainly NOT assented to cable companies demanding the use of proprietary equipment. In fact every time an issue like this comes up, the public has been deemed to be able to use ANY compatible equipment.

An analogy is oil companies buying a few car manufacturers and selling gas only to those people who bought THEIR cars...other cars will stop running if the gas is used.

WHEN the lawsuits are eventually brought against Time Warner and Comcast for the "restraint" behavior of theirs, the public's right will be vindicated...and the cable companies will find ANOTHER way to steal from the public until ANOTHER law suit. It would be a better socoety if the public could count on the EXECUTIVE BRANCH to take action against this thievery instead of abetting it every step of the way. For another good analogy, when "cable ready sets" first came out the public had to go through the SAME "rent the box" rigmarole until settled in court to get the cable companies to stop interfering with sensible process of letting the TV tune the channel.

Do we have to go through this with each and every advancement in technology?

The cable companies are utilities, and RAPACIOUS utilites as utilities go, thus tight regulation is needed...the TIGHTEST regulation because they have proven themselves SO aligned against the public's needs so very often.

The argument for tight regulation of BROADCASTING is that broadcasters use the air waves. The same should pertain even MORE stringently when cable companies are given our streets, our roofs, our view of the sky...making some inner cities look like they are draped in ugly black spaghetti,

I'm sorry your frustrated about this, but your comments are escalating to a level where I don't believe we can have a further discussion in this forum.

No offense, but none of that was really clear at first. It sounded like you were first demanding they activate some random box, and then demanding that they supply a cable card to your non-cable card box.

If they flat out won't give you a card, then by all means look for another source (which I guess you have.)

Also, how many people did you talk to? It's possible you got some clueless tech, especially if you just talked to one guy.

Sorry it wasn't clear at first. I was a little upset with TW when I posted. I sent an e-mail explaining the situation to Oceanic Time Warner here in Hawaii and they said they'll have their lawyers look over the regulation and get back to me. Haven't heard anything yet but I don't expect to. I'm just curious what they do with Tivo customers here.

I'm sorry your frustrated about this, but your comments are escalating to a level where I don't believe we can have a further discussion in this forum.

I agree fully.
We are poles apart on the topic of where a monopoly's power should end and serious public regulation begin. Our philosophies are too divergent for bulletin board discussion.

Can we put you two in one of those Ultimate Fighting arenas?

Okay, we have a 8300 HDC that we own and a cable card from Comcast which I just got after reading this thread today. When we originally hooked up the HDC it said the box was not authorized for service. The Comcast tech told us to bring it in to the Comcast office to have it scanned. Was at the office when they opened this morning. The office said nope, no can do. Got home, read this forum. Went back and got a cable card. They tried to tell me it wont work.

Someone earlier in this thread said we would need the HDC model for it to work. So what do we do, replace the card that came with the HDC box with the one Comcast gave us?

I mean they are charging us $20 extra a month for each additional box that's $40 a month extra rental charges just for the boxes . . . outrageous as far as Im concerned. So Im hoping someone can help me figure this out.

TIA,
Kate

The CableCard should be enabling the service. If not, then the CableCard is improperly initialized or bad. (It happens.) Have Comcast replace it.

Thanks for such a fast reply bicker!

We own the 8300 HDC, we just got it this week and the Comcast techs on the phone originally got a signal going to it, but the signal didnt last, instead an error screen would pop up saying the box isnt authorized for service. Thats when the tech told us to bring to box to the Comcast office and when I did the office said no go on our own box. So, I went back later and got a Comcast cable card from them that is authorized by them on our account. The office tried to tell me the cable card they gave us has to go into our TV, not into the box we bought.

My question is, if we take the card Comcast gave us and replace it with the one that came with the 8300 HDC will that then authorize the box to work?

Sorry if Im not explaining this clearly.

TIA~

My question is, if we take the card Comcast gave us and replace it with the one that came with the 8300 HDC will that then authorize the box to work?The CableCard must be issued by the service provider. It provides proprietary data specific to the provider.

CableCards are very flaky bits of technology. I've heard of cases where someone had six bad ones in a row.

Worst case, the problem could be in your box... if that's the case, you're out of luck. :(

CableCards are very flaky bits of technology. I've heard of cases where someone had six bad ones in a row.

And yet, I've had four of them (two in my former location, two in my current location, TiVo Series3 HD DMR) which worked perfectly the first time. The "flakiness" you mention, by my guess, is more due to repeated miskeying than any flaw in the cards themselves; as another person put it, "even a blind squirrel finds a nut eventually".

While there could be some human error, I doubt that it is as prevalent as you claim it to be, and beyond that, even if it were, a system that is (by specification) so prone to human error is fundamentally flawed.

...and continue download tv shows on bit-torrent.

Sounds like a bunch of hassle and wasted time for a $5/month STB lease.

Sorry it wasn't clear at first. I was a little upset with TW when I posted. I sent an e-mail explaining the situation to Oceanic Time Warner here in Hawaii and they said they'll have their lawyers look over the regulation and get back to me. Haven't heard anything yet but I don't expect to. I'm just curious what they do with Tivo customers here.

I'm thinking you weren't very clear with OTW either. :)


http://www.oceanic.com/OceanicWebApps/Television/DigitalServices/CableCard.html

A quick search of the local thread here on AVS also shows quite a bit of cablecard usage. ;)

Just to not on a few things

1) cable co's and probably satellite usually don't want people to own if they can lease and make plenty of money. $5a month for box? Um no maybe in 1995 it was...Now I see rental costs for remotes as well

2) Most tv's should be able to get analog cable that's unscrambled. No pay channels, no ppv's. Technically I'm sure they'll make some analog channels into digital or raise prices on analog and lower the digital etc

3) if you are looking for a PVR there's a number of them that work and do not charge any fee and even have a EPG. There's a bit more of a demand for this now vs in the past.

4) we're going to see some confusion as we get closer to the cut off date in mid february. For OTA you need either a hd set or a coversion box. For most cable co's they shouldn't charge more. Retailers are a confusing bunch also because much of the time they don't know what they are talking about.

I don't think there's anything as of yet unauthorized that can get unscrambled digital cable channels. Supposedly there was some discontinued box from motorola that might but I doubt it.

Oddly enough with the internet you can easily get your own broadband modem and cable companies are OK with this. This stuff ticks me off some because the company is probably making money off the demographic data that gets sent back to them on the digital signals. Whereas with satellite and OTA nothing (for the most part) gets sent back. Adding into this they build up networks to the point where localities usually can't say no.

$5a month for box? Um no maybe in 1995 it was...Now I see rental costs for remotes as well
.

My cable box costs $4.85 a month to lease. So does every model TWC offers in my area, including the DVRs. Been that way for about a decade and they've never raised it.

The remote has a rental fee, but it's like 15 cents, bumping the total equipment rental to... $5.

And, most universal remotes will work with the cable box (I personally have three that do.) So you don't have to rent the remote.

Here, with Comcast, the SD Box rental fee becomes less expensive every year.

As of '08, it is Box $3.70 + Remote (optional) $0.25 = $3.95.