Is So you think you can Dance(SYTYCD) finally in True-HD video?

On American Idol they showed a preview for the next season of SYTYCD which starts in May. I seriously couldn't tell the difference between that and what was on idol. Are they finally going away from 480p for this show?

Are they finally going away from 480p for this show?Probably not. Promo clips are different than the regular program.

Probably not. Promo clips are different than the regular program.

Are you able to tell the difference between the SYTYCD 480p/480i and the 720p from Idol. I seriously can't tell the difference.

Is So you think you can Dance(SYTYCD) finally in True-HD video?

On American Idol they showed a preview for the next season of SYTYCD which starts in May. I seriously couldn't tell the difference between that and what was on idol. Are they finally going away from 480p for this show?

And on American Idol tonight, Lacey Schwimmer was in the audience right behind Simon.

Hopefully they'll go full HD this season.

Are you able to tell the difference between the SYTYCD 480p/480i and the 720p from Idol. I seriously can't tell the difference.

Check out the screen caps below -- first one is from the SYTYCD promo, and the second is from Idol. To me, there's a huge difference.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3204/foxsdzy8.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3204/foxsdzy8.jpg) http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2113/foxhdwe1.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2113/foxhdwe1.jpg)

This doesn't mean that the show won't be in HD -- that is unknown -- but this promo (and all FOX promos*) is SD.

*This may be changing. I did see a NASCAR promo last weekend that had HD graphics on the tag. That was a first.

It's ALWAYS been in HD, right? :confused:

Wolfie

It's ALWAYS been in HD, right? :confused:

Wolfie


No, apparently its been in 480P widescreen for the entire run so far. But, unlike the Fox MLB coverage, it's been a very good 480P widescreen!

Being in a controlled environment like a studio certainly makes a difference.

No, apparently its been in 480P widescreen for the entire run so far. But, unlike the Fox MLB coverage, it's been a very good 480P widescreen!

Being in a controlled environment like a studio certainly makes a difference.

480i not 480p. Fox does not produce anything in 480p.

480i not 480p. Fox does not produce anything in 480p.
Actually is it 720p upconverted from 480i. There isn't or was 480p for this show ever.

Actually is it 720p upconverted from 480i. There isn't or was 480p for this show ever.

I don't think that's correct. This show has never been produced in HD; it's always been sent as widescreen 480p as far as I know.

I don't think that's correct. This show has never been produced in HD; it's always been sent as widescreen 480p as far as I know.

FOX transmits nothing in 480p. It is either sent to the stations in 480i 4:3 for analog broadcasts and 720p 16:9 for HD broadcasts. Anything upconverted is upconverted from 480i to 720p.

I don't think that's correct. This show has never been produced in HD; it's always been sent as widescreen 480p as far as I know.
The show is produced as 480i widescreen.

It is sent to stations and broadcast as 720p through Fox's splicer system.

Are you able to tell the difference between the SYTYCD 480p/480i and the 720p from Idol. I seriously can't tell the difference.

You either need new glasses/contacts or a bigger TV . . .

Yes - just to confirm that Fox don't produce anything in 480/60p - and nor does anyone else.

Even when Fox BROADCAST in 480/60p - they still PRODUCED in 480/60i, and the network distribution feed was 480/60i. The local station de-interlaced to 480/60p for broadcast.

For some reason the term "480p" seems to have become shorthand for "16:9 480i" on this board - which is a bit annoying because it is fundamentally inaccurate.

If Fox are still making SYTYCD in SD (using HD cameras in SD mode ISTR) - and from the screen grabs it appears that they are - it will be produced in 480/60i 16:9 and upconverted to 16:9 720/60p for distribution on the 720/60p HD network feed.

Fox has never used 480p for production. SYTYCD is produced in widescreen SD using Sony HDC 1500 HD cameras. The performance shows are recorded on DigiBeta and the live results shows are sent uncompressed via 270 Mbs lines (same ones used for Idol). The studio is adjacent to the one used for Idol and is presently being used in HD for Dancing With The Stars. Both studios have been used for Fox's Don't Forget The Lyrics in widescreen SD.

I haven't heard anything regarding this season's SYTYCD in HD but the extra cost may still be prohibitive for a summer show, but time will tell.

You either need new glasses/contacts or a bigger TV . . .

I have 20:20 vision and I sit less than 9 feet from my 55” LCD! I still don’t see a “big” difference between Idol and SYTYCD(When they are in the studio).

That is interesting because that is not what my broadcast of the SYTYCD commercial looked like. Was that over the air or Satellite? That is obviously SD up converted and bit starved! Mine did not look like that. I actually recorded it on my computer via an ATSC tuner. I will try to do a screen grab of it.

I also wasn’t referring to the clips they were showing in the commercial. Those have to be SD up converted because those were old clips that were recorded that way. I was actually referring to the end of the commercial when they showed a bunch of graphics and words on the screen. Those looked to be in “true” HD.

Notice that they did not show a single clip from the upcoming season. We really have not seen whether it is HD or not.

My understanding is that some of the Fox promos are created in HD.

I don't think that's correct. This show has never been produced in HD; it's always been sent as widescreen 480p as far as I know.

Where did I say it is produced in HD? I said that it is produced in 480i 16x9 and upconverted to 720p. Again there is no 480p anywhere. 480p died when FOX went HD.

Whenever there is any discussion about FOX and SD, people seem to be stuck on 480p. Again, THERE ISN'T ANY 480P BROADCAST ANYWHERE. IT IS DEAD FROM THE DAY FOX WENT TO 720P HD, SO IT IS EITHER TRUE 720P HD OR UPCONVERTED 720P SD.

Whenever there is any discussion about FOX and SD, people seem to be stuck on 480p. Again, THERE ISN'T ANY 480P BROADCAST ANYWHERE. IT IS DEAD FROM THE DAY FOX WENT TO 720P HD, SO IT IS EITHER TRUE 720P HD OR UPCONVERTED 720P SD.

Where it comes from is people still remember when FOX affiliates were deinterlacing widescreen 480i to 480p and sending it out for shows such as 'Firefly' and '24'. It looked very good, at least for the displays that were in homes at the time. Clearly some folks, myself included, still thought they were doing that. We now consider ourselves educated and fully understand that a show like SYTYCD is still widescreen SD, but upconverted 720p. The point has been made; no need to shout. But it's pretty silly that they're not doing it in HD considering they're using the same studio, with presumably the same infrastructure, as DWTS.

Check out the screen caps below -- first one is from the SYTYCD promo, and the second is from Idol. To me, there's a huge difference.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3204/foxsdzy8.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3204/foxsdzy8.jpg) http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2113/foxhdwe1.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2113/foxhdwe1.jpg)

This doesn't mean that the show won't be in HD -- that is unknown -- but this promo (and all FOX promos*) is SD.

*This may be changing. I did see a NASCAR promo last weekend that had HD graphics on the tag. That was a first.

Did everyone's SYTYCD promo look like these screen caps? Mine definitely looked better than that. Could there be a difference in how the 480i wide screen is de-interlaced from one location to the next. Where is the deinterlacing done?

Where it comes from is people still remember when FOX affiliates were deinterlacing widescreen 480i to 480p and sending it out for shows such as 'Firefly' and '24'. It looked very good, at least for the displays that were in homes at the time. Clearly some folks, myself included, still thought they were doing that. We now consider ourselves educated and fully understand that a show like SYTYCD is still widescreen SD, but upconverted 720p. The point has been made; no need to shout. But it's pretty silly that they're not doing it in HD considering they're using the same studio, with presumably the same infrastructure, as DWTS.

At least until a new thread starts and 480p, once again, rises from the grave.

At least until a new thread starts and 480p, once again, rises from the grave.

I have made this mistake so many times that whenever I type "480p" I now stop and think if I'm really talking about upconverted 480i. Fox was 480p for so many years, it's almost a habit to equate "widescreen" with "480p".

I have 20:20 vision and I sit less than 9 feet from my 55” LCD! I still don’t see a “big” difference between Idol and SYTYCD(When they are in the studio).
That's probably because SYTYCD is one of the best upconverted SD shows you will see. Not to mention I think I remember someone saying they are using component cables instead of composite. FOX's upconverted widescreen SD is some of the best that I have seen.

An easy way to tell is the audience or when the camera is off of the stage on the dancer/singer. Images on SYTYCD from far away as compared to Idol are not as sharp.

For the record I sit about 14 ft from our main 42" RPTV and can tell the difference with 20/12 vision. ;)

I have made this mistake so many times that whenever I type "480p" I now stop and think if I'm really talking about upconverted 480i. Fox was 480p for so many years, it's almost a habit to equate "widescreen" with "480p".

Technically FOX was only "widescreen capable" for 2 1/2 years. 2002 through Sept 2004 when the network went 720p. This was because the digital sat infrastructure didn't go on line until 2002 and RX C was used in 480i anamorphic mode for the widescreen that was then converted from 480i to 480p by the station, not the network. The splicer went on line in September 2004 with the start of the NFL season and began 720p HD for FOX. Within 90 days of the splicer going on line, network ceased anamorphic network programming on RX C and thus ended the so called "480p" distribution of network programming. RX C is now used as an occasional 480i promo feed receiver and a tridundant analog network receiver for special programming like the Super Bowl. It hasn't been used for 16:9 programming in almost 4 years.

The stations have never had a FOX 480p receiver for any kind of programming. No one that I know of uses 480p internally or externally to move programming around. It is either 480i or 720p/1080i.

Technically FOX was only "widescreen capable" for 2 1/2 years. 2002 through Sept 2004 when the network went 720p. This was because the digital sat infrastructure didn't go on line until 2002 and RX C was used in 480i anamorphic mode for the widescreen that was then converted from 480i to 480p by the station, not the network. The splicer went on line in September 2004 with the start of the NFL season and began 720p HD for FOX. Within 90 days of the splicer going on line, network ceased anamorphic network programming on RX C and thus ended the so called "480p" distribution of network programming. RX C is now used as an occasional 480i promo feed receiver and a tridundant analog network receiver for special programming like the Super Bowl. It hasn't been used for 16:9 programming in almost 4 years.

The stations have never had a FOX 480p receiver for any kind of programming. No one that I know of uses 480p internally or externally to move programming around. It is either 480i or 720p/1080i.

Actually, we had a wegener 422 receiver, supplied by FOX, to receive the widescreen digital programs in late '99. We had to buy the Faroudja upconverter.

I have 20:20 vision and I sit less than 9 feet from my 55” LCD! I still don’t see a “big” difference between Idol and SYTYCD(When they are in the studio).

Umm . . .

Do you dri........

(nevermind) ;)

That is interesting because that is not what my broadcast of the SYTYCD commercial looked like. Was that over the air or Satellite? That is obviously SD up converted and bit starved!

That was recorded OTA with a Series 3 TiVo, then file-transferred to a PC and played with VLC to get the image. Because of the nature of the FOX splicer system, what you are seeing here is what was sent out -- as far as I know, the station cannot reduce the bit rate (foxeng will correct me on that if I am wrong). In theory, all affiliates should look exactly the same. So, I would be interested to see if you can grab that same frame for comparison -- if indeed it looks better, then some further investigation would be required!

I was actually referring to the end of the commercial when they showed a bunch of graphics and words on the screen. Those looked to be in “true” HD.


Fair enough. As I said earlier, I *did* see a NASCAR promo last weekend that absolutely had an HD graphics backplate at the end. However, this promo did not appear that way to me. Below, a few more screen shots: First one is the one being discussed, and the other is from an HD commercial that ran in an earlier break. If you look at the text in the SYTYCD promo, you can see that the edges are just not that sharp in either the vertical or horizontal domain. The AT&T graphic on the other hand is pin-sharp (though you can still clearly see compression artifacts -- which is a different issue).

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3371/sdgraphicld7.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3371/sdgraphicld7.jpg) http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1545/hdgraphicmu0.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1545/hdgraphicmu0.jpg)

Could there be a difference in how the 480i wide screen is de-interlaced from one location to the next. Where is the deinterlacing done?

Stations are not doing any de-interlacing -- they are receiving a 720p stream, regardless of the source material. De-interlacing and upconverting of 480i material is done at the FOX network center in L.A.

Actually, we had a wegener 422 receiver, supplied by FOX, to receive the widescreen digital programs in late '99. We had to buy the Faroudja upconverter.

Yeah that was part of the patchwork digital network they had while still using the old analog Wegeners. It was 2002 when the 5000's went on line and the old black face Wegener's were finally "retired" (thrown out).

Yeah that was part of the patchwork digital network they had while still using the old analog Wegeners. It was 2002 when the 5000's went on line and the old black face Wegener's were finally "retired" (thrown out).

Correct!

Actually, we had a wegener 422 receiver, supplied by FOX, to receive the widescreen digital programs in late '99. We had to buy the Faroudja upconverter.

I thought someone was broadcasting Fox in widescreen before 2002. For example the promotion of the premiere of 24 in late 2001 mentioned how cool the multiple screens would look in Fox's new "digital widescreen" with the obligatory "where available". In fact I think that was the first time I had ever heard that term.

Yeah, I have a distinct memory of watching an episode of "Harsh Realm" in widescreen right off the FOX receiver. That series only ran for an handful of episodes in the fall of '99.

I was the one who mentioned '480P Widescreen" because that's what we had to suffer with for MLB on Fox. SYTYCD, I thought, was HD based on what I saw. Only when I read it here that it was 480i/p did I know the difference.

The controlled environment of the studio changes everything.

If the show is now in 720P HD (without being upconverted) like MLB on Fox is for the 2008 season, so much the better. If it is now HD, be assured Fox will announce it as such (in commercials or during the opening credits).

The only issue is during the audition segments, when they're outside the LA studios, if those will also be in HD (pretty hard to drag around the HD equipment for now).

I was the one who mentioned '480P Widescreen" because that's what we had to suffer with for MLB on Fox.


Yep - it was broadcast to you in 16:9 480/60p - but Fox were shooting it in 16:9 480/60i. Nobody ever did any widespread production, other than experimental stuff, with 480/60p production gear - as it has never really existed. (480/60i 16:9 and 4:3 productions can be made with the same kit - but 480/60p 16:9 requires entirely new production kit - and the only cameras/switchers etc. that work in 480/60p also work in 720/60p and/or 1080/60i as well...)


SYTYCD, I thought, was HD based on what I saw. Only when I read it here that it was 480i/p did I know the difference.


Definitely 480/60i but shot using HD cameras, and distributed to Fox using a component digital circuit (avoiding the quality drop that NTSC composite SD circuits introduce) - hence the high quality.

I assume the studio runs in 480/60i (with the cameras outputting an internal 1080/60p to 480/60i downconversion if they are HDC-1500s) allowing SD recording and replay to be used. The other option is to run the studio in HD and downconvert the studio output to SD - but this would require any SD pre-recorded material to be upconverted and then downconverted...


The controlled environment of the studio changes everything.


The fact that it is an HD studio running in SD helps as well! That - with a component production path - ensures that the SD is as good as SD gets.

Fox are also using a high quality 480i to 720p upconverter, so the results will be better for most viewers than taking a 480i 16:9 SD source into their displays and letting them de-interlace and scale to 720p in their TV.


The only issue is during the audition segments, when they're outside the LA studios, if those will also be in HD (pretty hard to drag around the HD equipment for now).

Not harder - just more expensive to shoot and edit in HD still. If they are currently shooting auditions on DVCam/DVCPro/miniDV (a common way of shooting reality TV audition segments for many, many, many hours at a reasonable cost) then shooting on XDCam HD/P2/DVCProHD (or even HDV) would cost a bit more. If they were shooting these segments on DigiBeta - then it might even be cheaper to shoot on XDCam HD or P2 - though P2 is a very poor match for shooting audition footage unless you constantly dub to external hard drive. (There may be an application for location recording to hard drive. One BBC in-house reality TV series "Dragons Den" has recently trialled recording directly to a central hard drive system using reasonably cheap PC-based gear - and this system is HD capable) The system is detailed here : http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp141.shtml

Also - Many broadcasters won't count HDV content as HD so add it to their "SD quota" for a production which may tip a show over the edge of acceptability. Most shows have a maximum SD quota they are allowed to use before no longer being eligible to be called HD - and also a maximum continuous amount of "SD" they can include. (I know that both Discovery and the BBC have these rules for HD commissioning - and would expect others to be similar)

I was the one who mentioned '480P Widescreen" because that's what we had to suffer with for MLB on Fox. SYTYCD, I thought, was HD based on what I saw. Only when I read it here that it was 480i/p did I know the difference.

The controlled environment of the studio changes everything.

If the show is now in 720P HD (without being upconverted) like MLB on Fox is for the 2008 season, so much the better. If it is now HD, be assured Fox will announce it as such (in commercials or during the opening credits).

The only issue is during the audition segments, when they're outside the LA studios, if those will also be in HD (pretty hard to drag around the HD equipment for now).


MLB on Fox has not been 480p for 4 years now. It was either true 720p HD or 480i upconverted to 720p.

Yep - it was broadcast to you in 16:9 480/60p - but Fox were shooting it in 16:9 480/60i. Nobody ever did any widespread production, other than experimental stuff, with 480/60p production gear - as it has never really existed. (480/60i 16:9 and 4:3 productions can be made with the same kit - but 480/60p 16:9 requires entirely new production kit - and the only cameras/switchers etc. that work in 480/60p also work in 720/60p and/or 1080/60i as well...)



Definitely 480/60i but shot using HD cameras, and distributed to Fox using a component digital circuit (avoiding the quality drop that NTSC composite SD circuits introduce) - hence the high quality.

I assume the studio runs in 480/60i (with the cameras outputting an internal 1080/60p to 480/60i downconversion if they are HDC-1500s) allowing SD recording and replay to be used. The other option is to run the studio in HD and downconvert the studio output to SD - but this would require any SD pre-recorded material to be upconverted and then downconverted...



The fact that it is an HD studio running in SD helps as well! That - with a component production path - ensures that the SD is as good as SD gets.

Fox are also using a high quality 480i to 720p upconverter, so the results will be better for most viewers than taking a 480i 16:9 SD source into their displays and letting them de-interlace and scale to 720p in their TV.



Not harder - just more expensive to shoot and edit in HD still. If they are currently shooting auditions on DVCam/DVCPro/miniDV (a common way of shooting reality TV audition segments for many, many, many hours at a reasonable cost) then shooting on XDCam HD/P2/DVCProHD (or even HDV) would cost a bit more. If they were shooting these segments on DigiBeta - then it might even be cheaper to shoot on XDCam HD or P2 - though P2 is a very poor match for shooting audition footage unless you constantly dub to external hard drive. (There may be an application for location recording to hard drive. One BBC in-house reality TV series "Dragons Den" has recently trialled recording directly to a central hard drive system using reasonably cheap PC-based gear - and this system is HD capable) The system is detailed here : http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp141.shtml

Also - Many broadcasters won't count HDV content as HD so add it to their "SD quota" for a production which may tip a show over the edge of acceptability. Most shows have a maximum SD quota they are allowed to use before no longer being eligible to be called HD - and also a maximum continuous amount of "SD" they can include. (I know that both Discovery and the BBC have these rules for HD commissioning - and would expect others to be similar)


MLB has not been broadcast in 480p since 2004. As mentioned before it is 480i upconverted to 720p or true 720p HD. People can't seem to get off 480p when it comes to FOX Network even though it has been dead for four years.

I think we should stop arguing about this. What's done is done and can't be undone. Let's just enjoy the new season (and hope that "Sex" finally got the message and stays home!)

Is it May 22nd yet?

Not quite. The current tenants haven't moved out yet.

They showed a longer preview during AI a couple of weeks ago. Sex is back and it looks like the blonder chick from 2 years ago is back. The one who hurt her ankle.

They showed a longer preview during AI a couple of weeks ago. Sex is back and it looks like the blonder chick from 2 years ago is back. The one who hurt her ankle.

Cripes, doesn't that guy get it?

1) He's a lousy dancer.
2) He's over the age limit (30).

Maybe he'll bring his mother again.:eek:

i wonder if these guys become successful. i did see a bunch of them on the Idol Gives Back episode. they didn't really do much, though.

Is this thread going to be the official SYTYCD thread this year, or shouldn't someone start one with a better Title in line with past years such as, So You Think You Can Dance - Season Five, or 2008?

Is this thread going to be the official SYTYCD thread this year, or shouldn't someone start one with a better Title in line with past years such as, So You Think You Can Dance - Season Five, or 2008?

Send a PM to one of the mods and they'll edit the title. CP95 will do it for you.