Real quick question.;)

Whats the best CECB box to use with a 57" CRT rear projection 1080i 16:9 HDTV, that only has a ATSC tuner?

Background:

My local cable provider has a lousy analog feed for our local CBS affiliate and due to a local carry pissing contest I cannot get that station on my digital HD cable box as a HD channel. Only the lousy analog version is available on local cable.

My local OTA digital ATSC broadcast feed for that station would be an improvement even if its only digital 480i. I'm getting HD for most of the local stations except PBS and one other station, but they look fine on my cable system. But the analog CBS channel really sucks on my 57" RPTV.

I know the Zenith and Digital Stream CECBs do not have S-Video, but I'm sure my Toshiba 57HDX82 HDTV has a pretty good comb filter and zoom functions.

I'm most concerned about how the 480i output would look on my 16:9 display.

I'm looking to have the CECB convert the widescreen OTA 16:9 ATSC 1080i60 HD broadcast to widescreen 480i60 and then use my NTSC HDTV to upconvert that to the CRT displays native 1080i60 16:9 resolution. I know its a cludge, but if its widescreen and digital its better than the poor analog 4:3 feed I have now.

Its only this one single channel that I have an issue with, so I really don't want to buy a HDTV ATSC tuner box. Its really just that watching CBS golf and NFL football is irritating. Plus my local CBS affiliate and cable system may come to an agreement for HD carriage.

I would rather get a box locally that I can get at Wal-Mart Circuit City , Radio shack, Best Buy or Frys.

Between the Zenith DT900 and Digital Stream DTX-9900 what would look best on a 16:9 NTSC HDTV? Would the Channel Master CM-7000 S-Video output make a difference? Any other options?

Help from you CECB experts?

Just got my two government coupons.

I have an unusal problem. I want to use a CECB as a cheapie ATSC tuner for one of my NTSC tuner HDTVs. I'm most concerned on how it will look on a 57" 16:9 HDTV, not a smaller 4:3 TV.

I've read one review that said that the PQ of the Zenith was a fraction sharper than the DS's, so you can take that into account. Whatever has the sharpest PQ to begin with is likely to look best on a large, HD display, barring any other major flaws in the output.

You can see by those pics in the "ATSC Converter Comparison" thread that you also posted your question in that they both look about equally sharp and clean on a smaller CRT, but on the 57" screen you're definitely more likely to see any difference.

But then you'll have to worry about getting a box with that audio issue moreso with the Zenith (only a couple of people have really reported it in the DS - none lately). But since it's only one channel with some occasional viewing, maybe you won't mind connecting it in mono to minimize or avoid the problem (if you even have or notice it).

I really don't know how the s-video output PQ of the CM compares to the Zenith's composite PQ, though.

I just saw on a video that the Zenith DTT900 can set the aspect ratio to match a 4:3 or 16:9 display.

That would be good in my situation.

Does the Digital Stream DTX-9900 offer this option?

I can report the zenith has an output setting 4:3 or 16:9.

The Digital Stream DTX9900 will display 16:9 anamorphic also. Which would better on a native 16:9 display? I would assume the Zenith would push be better as it would be filling the native 16:9 display from left to right instead of doing an anamorphic squeeze, but would the DS work like a anamorphic DVD and produce a better picture? I know anamorphic DVD works because precious SD MPEG-2 encoded pixels are not wasted on encoding black bars, but how would that work in a CECB?

I looked up your TV manual, looks like you have two composite/S-Video inputs, you also have to component inputs. Barring not spending $150 for a high-res model without using a coupon, I would look for an S-Video model. Some reviews on the Channel Master CM-7000 should be out soon. I know FreeTVShop (http://www.freedtvshop.com/fdtv/converters/cm7000.php) had a few in but sent all of them out to people that pre-ordered it. There is a link to the manual there as well. Right now I think that is the only S-Video unit out. I would look for a review on it because hopefully someone on this form got one.

FreeTVShop said the channel master should be back in stock next week, i got it straight from Mosquito.

Thanks for the comments so far.

I think I'll probably going to try the Zenith because of the 16:9 mode. I like the S-Video of the Channel Master but I think the comb filter of my Toshiba may do good enough with the composite input off the Zenith.I am using one of my Zenith boxes on the same setup and it works quite well! The menu of the zenith has a 16:9 screen size and if you put your set in the wide mode (same as DVD) the picture size adapts to the screen size for both HD material and regular material. As you know the picture is SD but quite good. Maybe in a year from now when the prices come down I will by a HD ATSC tuner. I like this tuner because it is very sensitive and picks up all the Baltimore channels which Comcast does not deliver to my area. It also serves as a great backup when the cable goes out. For some reason the analog signal I get is very bad on most channels (lot of ghosting). On the other hand the digital signals I get through this tuner is very good (both Washington and Baltimore).


Looking for any addition bits of wisdom before I pull the trigger here.

The channel master doesn't offer the 16:9 monitor aspect ratio. It does however offer the anamorphic widescreen mode so for HD broadcasts it will display perfectly on your 16:9 TV. The problem occurs for many subchannels that are 4:3 mode. The CM will fill your screen with these pictures making people look short and fat. The Zenith, having the 16:9 mode, will display these channels properly with black borders on the right and left.

from another thread I cross posted on.

Which would better on a native 16:9 display? I would assume the Zenith would push be better as it would be filling the native 16:9 display from left to right instead of doing an anamorphic squeeze, but would the DS work like a anamorphic DVD and produce a better picture? I know anamorphic DVD works because precious SD MPEG-2 encoded pixels are not wasted on encoding black bars, but how would that work in a CECB?To properly fill a 16:9 display you want a box that will output "anamorphic" video -- the kind that looks like tall skinny people on a 4:3 display. When anamorphic video is displayed in 16:9 aspect ratio the picture looks normal (round objects are round). A box that is displaying in 16:9 mode is sending out video that is intended for a 4:3 display. The box is putting black bars on the top and bottom to display the full aspect ratio in a 4:3 display. If this signal is displayed on a 16:9 display, you will have black bars around all 4 sides. If you use the TV function to zoom this image it won't look too good because of the effective lower resolution.

Both the Zenith and the DS DTX-9900 will display anamorphic video so you are covered both ways. I realize you only need this for 1 channel and so don't want to break the bank with a full OTA HD tuner. But depending on the compression level your cable company uses, you may find the other OTA HD channels to be superior. I dunno', using a CECB on an HD display seems like buying a 10 megapixel camera and then setting it to take 3 megapixel images to save money on flash cards.

To properly fill a 16:9 display you want a box that will output "anamorphic" video -- the kind that looks like tall skinny people on a 4:3 display. When anamorphic video is displayed in 16:9 aspect ratio the picture looks normal (round objects are round). A box that is displaying in 16:9 mode is sending out video that is intended for a 4:3 display. The box is putting black bars on the top and bottom to display the full aspect ratio in a 4:3 display. If this signal is displayed on a 16:9 display, you will have black bars around all 4 sides. If you use the TV function to zoom this image it won't look too good because of the effective lower resolution.

Both the Zenith and the DS DTX-9900 will display anamorphic video so you are covered both ways. I realize you only need this for 1 channel and so don't want to break the bank with a full OTA HD tuner. But depending on the compression level your cable company uses, you may find the other OTA HD channels to be superior. I dunno', using a CECB on an HD display seems like buying a 10 megapixel camera and then setting it to take 3 megapixel images to save money on flash cards.


The Zenith box in the 16:9 mode fills the full screen on an HDTV with no black bars on the top or bottom. The 16:9 mode may be anamorphic but it does not state that. On SD material it also shows it in the correct proportion - just bars on the side.

The Zenith box in the 16:9 mode fills the full screen on an HDTV with no black bars on the top or bottom. The 16:9 mode may be anamorphic but it does not state that. On SD material it also shows it in the correct proportion - just bars on the side.Interesting. I have the DS but not the Zenith so I may have misinterpreted what I read. The DS has 4 discrete view modes:


anamorphic - for a 16:9 display, displays tall & skinny on 4:3 display
zoom - pan & scan for 4:3
16:9 - black bars top and botom for a 4:3 display
14:9 - kinda odd, intended for a 4:3 display. Somewhere between 4:3 and 16:9; takes a little off the sides and decreases the black bars


From what you know, does the Zenith have a 16:9 display mode for 4:3 displays.

Interesting. I have the DS but not the Zenith so I may have misinterpreted what I read. The DS has 4 discrete view modes:


anamorphic - for a 16:9 display, displays tall & skinny on 4:3 display
zoom - pan & scan for 4:3
16:9 - black bars top and botom for a 4:3 display
14:9 - kinda odd, intended for a 4:3 display. Somewhere between 4:3 and 16:9; takes a little off the sides and decreases the black bars


From what you know, does the Zenith have a 16:9 display mode for 4:3 displays.

If the material is 16:9 and you have it set for the 4:3 mode on a 4:3 set it will display bars on the top and bottom and will have no bars on the side. The Zenith box also offer a zoom mode so you can fill the whole screen.

So it looks like if I set the Zenith to a 16:9 "TV Aspect Ratio" in its setup, it will fill my entire 16:9 screen up on my HDTV for any 16:9 OAR programs and will pillarbox any native 4:3 OAR programs?

Thats what I want.

If I set it to "TV Aspect Ratio" of 16:9 its not going to window box a 16:9 broadcast, so I don't have to worry about zooming. Right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGLPN1-45Q4&feature=related

at the 4:21 mark in this video

Best idea: Get a used HD box. See the Synopsis list and check e-Bay.

Best idea: Get a used HD box. See the Synopsis list and check e-Bay.
Thats an idea. But I have a couple people around that are in the exact same situation I am in, so I'm trying to act as a Guinea pig.

Plus CECB- $40 coupon is around $20, and its only the one damn channel with the issue that can go away next month if the cable company and CBS station managers can stop acting like children.

So it looks like if I set the Zenith to a 16:9 "TV Aspect Ratio" in its setup, it will fill my entire 16:9 screen up on my HDTV for any 16:9 OAR programs and will pillarbox any native 4:3 OAR programs?

Thats what I want.

If I set it to "TV Aspect Ratio" of 16:9 its not going to window box a 16:9 broadcast, so I don't have to worry about zooming. Right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGLPN1-45Q4&feature=related

at the 4:21 mark in this video

Correct. As I previously stated you need to put you HDTV in the widescreen mode.

Correct. As I previously stated you need to put you HDTV in the widescreen mode.
Cool. Thats what I want. Not a big deal for me to switch display modes on the HDTV itself. So I would use the same mode I watch anamorphic DVDs on. If not, it takes 15 seconds try all the modes using the HDTV remote.

I'll probably get a HD capable ATSC tuner in September if my local CBS HD cable issue is not resolved by then.

I'll probably get a HD capable ATSC tuner in September if my local CBS HD cable issue is not resolved by then.

May I know the brand and model for the "HD capable ATSC tuner"?

May I know the brand and model for the "HD capable ATSC tuner"? Don't have a clue yet. :p

Ask me a question on front projectors, HDTV display technologies, HD DVD, Blu-ray, audio video codecs, upconverting DVD hardware, HDM studio releases AVRs, home theater receivers and a lot of other A/V things I'm very knowledgeable.

The sat boxes and HD cable boxes I've used have been good enough.

On ATSC HD tuners and CECBs I'm a freaken newbie. :o:D;)

just tried a Zenith CECB box.

The HD channel I was concerned about (using the 16:9 TV aspect ratio setup option) produces a anamorphic image which is easily converted to a nice upconverted DVD quality full 16:9 image on my 57" CRT.

Looks like it does the same thing as the anamorphic mode on the DS box.

I will get one of those and compare the experience. But it does better better than I expected.So I've just tried the Zenith box, and the signal quality is great. The bad CBS cable channel I got is now looking true widescreen and upconverted DVD quality.

Much better than the fuzzy snowy 4:3 analog POS I had to work with before.

Have a friend who want the Zenith box, s I going to try the DgitalStream box next.

But the Zenith absolutely works fine a a chepo ATSC tuner for my older NTSC only HDTV and properly pulls in the 16:9 signals. Not bad for $20.

I'll be interested to read your comparisons. I just bought the DS and yes it does have full screen 16:9 out, which I am using on my 32" WS LCD. So far I'm liking the DS, no complaints yet. I'll play with it more during prime time when their's actually HD programming on and not just 4x3 programs. I like the program guide on the DS. It goes out as far as the stations submit. A couple of days in some cases.

I like the program guide on the DS. It goes out as far as the stations submit. A couple of days in some cases.Does it show stations other than the one you're currently tuned to?  I can't figure out how to make it do that.

I'm more interested in knowing what else is on now or about to start soon, including other channels; for what's going to be on later than that, there's time to check titantv.com or the cable company's display (since I also have cable).  But I don't like having to tune away from the current program to see what else is coming on other stations in the coming half-hour or hour.

Not that I have found. You must be tuned to the channel you want to see the guide on. Personally I would prefer this method instead of one that showed all the channels if it was only next/now, but I guess it's just preference. I can see how you'd like the other way too.
I watch a lot of PBS and like to look ahead to see if they are repeating the program later that night or even in the coming days.
I'm not sure if any CECB's do what you would want, I guess I didn't think about it. The much more expensive Samsung 260 HD box(not coupon eligible) does what you want. I had one for a while.

Interesting.

Just got the DS box. First impressions on my 57' 16:9 NTSC Tuner RPTV. It does not do as good a job on the 4:3 SD digital transmissions on its anamorphic mode. There is a lot of dot crawl and shimmer around bright area transitions. The Zenith is better on most SD digital channels. The DS looks softer an their is more clay face and dot crawl and edge shimmer.

But the native 1080i60 ATSC HD signal on a real HD 16:9 broadcast looks pretty good. Maybe a little bit more of dot crawl than the Zenith, but its certainly better than the bad analog signal I was dealing with.

I'll try to get both boxes and compare them head to head later tonight on the HD channels.

The DS certainly is a easier unit to use, the remote is clearly better and might even be my choice if I am going to get get other boxes for my old TVs. It certainly would be my choice for smaller 27 televisions, which is it intended use.

But for a use as a cheap ATSC tuner for a larger HDTV, the Zenith gives a better picture overall for the non HD ATSC 4:3 signals when blown up to 57" screen. If I was going to get one for the use for all the available digital channels , that would be my clear choice.

Since I'm really only concerned about that one dog analog CBS signal, as I get the others stations in real 1080i60 16:9 HD on my cable box, either one will work in my situation.

I'll try to do a A:B comparison tonight.

I'll be interested to read your comparisons. I just bought the DS and yes it does have full screen 16:9 out, which I am using on my 32" WS LCD. So far I'm liking the DS, no complaints yet. I'll play with it more during prime time when their's actually HD programming on and not just 4x3 programs. I like the program guide on the DS. It goes out as far as the stations submit. A couple of days in some cases. Let compare notes tonight.

Wow. Interesting findings here.

I first connected the DigitalStream DTX9900 using the composite connection (using both a 6 foot set of high quality RCA composite cables and then a set of component cables) . I was less than impressed with the SD digital channels being sent and OK with the 1080i HD 16:9 result. But I saw some clear shimmer, dot crawl and clay face lose of color depth compared to a true 1080i60 HD signal. The Zenith CECB looked better at first using its composite and 75 ohm outputs.

But then I switched to the coax ANT (75 ohm) output of the DigitalStream DTX 9900 and plugged that into my ANT1 input to my Toshiba 57HDX82 NTSC 16:9 rear projection HDTV.

Wow.

Night and day difference. Now looks even better than the Zenith did. As a matter of fact, it now looks better on the 1080i60 down converted to 480i60 by the DigitalStream CECB (using anamorphic mode) and then back upconverted back to 1080i60 by the HDTV.

Standard def digital channels now look even better than the Zenith and the shimmer is gone. Their might have been cross talk on the 6 foot composite cables or the HDTV is optimized for upconverting on the ANT (75ohm) in.

Either way, I happy with the result.

Most amazingly, this down convert upconvert kludgey chain works extremely well on actual native 1080i60 HD material. I was able to compare (edit: multiple (3)) HD channels of my SA8300 HD cable box and the OTA HD 1080i60 version processed thru the DS box which down converted to anamorphic 480i60 and then feed thru the cable ANT out back to be upconverted by my HDTV. The result was astonishing on the 57" rear projection HDTV. Not quite HD , but I had to look hard to see the background difference. Certainly very watchable and light years beyond the crappy 4:3 analog version of CBS that I lived with before.

I am a real happy camper. All of the digital stations I can grab now are superior to their analog versions on my HD cable box. Not quit HD , but very much better than I expected.

The DigitalStream DTX9900 CECB using the ANT (75 ohm) out (do not only try and use the composite out. try the coax out as well ), is the clear winner here when connected to a larger NTSC tuner based HDTV.

I also connected it to the 27 and 32 inch 4:3 CRT TVs I have as well. Overall the DigitalStream DTX9900 looked good there too.

It will be my clear recommendation between the two.

I'm not sure if any CECB's do what you would want, I guess I didn't think about it.The Zenith DTT900 shows Now/Next for every channel that it's been tuned to since most recently being turned on, or at least in the last couple of hours and since being most recently turned on.  You can scroll through the channels of the guide without interrupting reception of the channel that you're watching.

It's only Now/Next, but to find out what's on farther into the future, including (as you said) additional airings of the current program, I don't mind going to the computer or to the cable box.

Twelve hours of guide information on all channels is more than I'd expect from a CECB.  You're lucky to get either Now/Next for all channels or several hours of schedule on the current channel.  It wouldn't surprise me to learn that some CECBs show only Now/Next on the currently tuned channel and nothing more.  So if you and I disagree on which is more important to us, good thing that both choices are available.

I liked the DS EPG, remote , tuning speed etc far better than the Zenith. Both had same reception ability for me. YMMV.

I liked the DS EPG, remote , tuning speed etc far better than the Zenith. Both had same reception ability for me. YMMV.

By tuning speed, do you mean how quick it displays the picture when changing channels?

Yes.

I meant channel lock in after pressing the up and down buttons on the remote.

The remote, electronic program guide and general usage of the DS box seemed better to me with the DigitalStream box.

The Zenith had better composite output in my case, but the coax out of the DS worked well.

I thought the TV Aspect Mode setting or 16:9 / 4:3 would give the Zenith an advantage when used with a 16:9 display, but it did not. All it did was default the output to anamorphic mode, which you could easily do on the DigitalStream box. The DS remote was much better.

No hesitation in recommending the DS over the Zenith. YMMV on the ability of each to pull in signals. My DS actually scanned in a couple audio only digital sub channels the Zenith did not find on its auto scan.

Thank you all for the input.

I've read one review that said that the PQ of the Zenith was a fraction sharper than the DS's, so you can take that into account. Whatever has the sharpest PQ to begin with is likely to look best on a large, HD display, barring any other major flaws in the output.

You can see by those pics in the "ATSC Converter Comparison" thread that you also posted your question in that they both look about equally sharp and clean on a smaller CRT, but on the 57" screen you're definitely more likely to see any difference.

But then you'll have to worry about getting a box with that audio issue moreso with the Zenith (only a couple of people have really reported it in the DS - none lately). But since it's only one channel with some occasional viewing, maybe you won't mind connecting it in mono to minimize or avoid the problem (if you even have or notice it).

I really don't know how the s-video output PQ of the CM compares to the Zenith's composite PQ, though. The composite video out of the Zenith was clearly better than the DigitalStream , but the coax ANT (75ohm) out of the Digitalstream in my situation was at least equal to or possibly better than the Zenith. Maybe because of the length of the composite cable, the optimization of the antenna input or something I do not know but after adjustment I was really surprised on how good the result was.

Better than most of all my analog cable channels. equal or better than my digital cable channels, a bit less than true cable box 1080i HD, slightly better but close to good upconverted DVD , less than OTA cable I have seen and quite a bit less than Blu-ray or HD DVD.

Overall better than I expected.

The only problem using the antenna output (unless you hook the sound up to a receiver) is you loose the stereo sound. It's hard to believe that the picture quality is better through the antenna since in theory it should not be but as they say anything is possible.It maybe that that my older HDTV was optimized for cable input and the composite input does not use the same upconversion circuitry. I think I had the adjustments the same.

My older HDTV, takes that mono sound and pseudo stereo its, but the point is well taken. I really don't care about its sound as much as the picture.

Perhaps I can play with it to see if I can get the composite to look better.

Yeah, really weird on the RF. Could be my HDTV circuity is optimized for that and blows off composite since when it was built, most people would be plugging cable straight into that coax ANT jack. But that would apply to most NTSC only or monitor only tuner-less HDTVs of that era.

In theory, the composite should be better than the RF, but maybe my sets 3d comb filter kicks in so the RF doesn't look so bad and is designed to upconvert the RF better. Again we are talking about a much larger screen than most using this CECB would us, and its basically a off label use for this CECB box.

from another conversation:

I think you used a term (clay face?) in a earlier review. Now I haven't heard that expression but I think I know what your mean. On the DS during darker scenes peoples faces did somewhat look like they were made out of clay. Not terrible but at times noticeable. I think the only other time I have really noticed this effect is on cheaper LCD's like my Insignia or a VERY old Sony LCD without a HD tuner. Both of those sets seem to also display the "clay face" effect on darker scenes. I attributed it more to poor contrast ratio than anything else, but did notice it tuning with the DS even on my good LCD.I meant clay face as a description of loss of detail were similar areas of color or detail was lost in things like facial expressions. Kinda happens with poor upconversion where detail is lost. Could be that the composite output is upconverted in a different manner than the RF input is.

Some of last years real good Panasonic plasmas had the effect when they upconverted poor cable channels before it was corrected with a firmware update.

I think its a symptom of poor upconversion, so it may be a sign that my old HDTV handles the two inputs differently, or I had a setting different between them.

Basically, here I am using the CECB box as a DTV receiver.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13679508&postcount=4Q: My HDTV doesn't have an HDTV tuner. Can I use a CECB as an HDTV receiver?

A: No. A CECB must have only standard-definition (480i) output. It must be able to receive high-definition signals, but it must convert them to standard definition output.

How about this?


Q: My HDTV doesn't have an HDTV or ATSC tuner, but it has a NTSC tuner . Can I use a CECB as an DTV receiver to receive all OTA ATSC signals including the OTA HD channels ? How does it handle widescreen channels on a 16:9 HTV?

A: Yes. But the CECB must have only standard-definition (480i) output. It must be able to receive 1080i or 720p high-definition signals, but it must down convert them to standard definition output. Your HDTV display can then take that resulting 480i60 signal and then upconvert it back to its native resolution. It will not be a true HD signal but it may reach upconverted DVD quality and may be 16:9 or 4:3 in aspect ratio. It will under any case be somewhat less than using a true HD ATSC tuner box , which can be had for around $100-$150.

I can now get pretty good pictures on both boxes using composite.

Played with both the DigitalStream and Zenith CECB boxes on different settings.

Once I cranked down the contrast and sharpness settings for both boxes I compared them both on RF coax and composite. So I was switching A-B-C-D to compare.

I could now get all 4 inputs to look about the same on the HD channels, with addition of course of stereo sound on composite. The Zenith had less moire and shimmering on the SD digital channels and properly showed them in 4:3 aspect ratio. My HDTV was over compensating , but when I cranked down the contrast and sharpness, it could make all 4 inputs look pretty good.

So I'm back to keeping the Zenith, cause I don't care about the EPG and it properly displays 4:3 digital content automatically while I change channels.

I would try the Zenith in 16:9 TV aspect mode if you have a 16:9 HDTV.

Of course by using the composite inputs I get stereo again.

Bottom line: Zenith and DigitalStream look about the same on HD stations. Zenith 16:9 TV aspect ratio setup allows proper aspect ratio display of 4:3 content with side pillar boxes on a 16:9 HDTV display with slightly better display of SD content.

I still like the DigitalStream remote EPG and menus, but the 16:9 TV Aspect setting works for me in my particular situation.

Thanks for your comments on the Zenith. I think maybe I'll give it a try. I do appreciate the 30 hr. EPG on the DS but I guess the Zenith lists all recently viewed channels in it's next/now EPG so I guess that's nice too.
For me the PQ is most important. I've wondered if maybe a box with S-video output would get rid of the dot crawl or maybe even the shimmer of like a mans tie or suit coat with fine lines. So far though their are very few CECB's with S-out. The MaxMedia which may or may not ever make it out, and the more expensive ($80) Channel Master CM-7000. I hope the $60 Zenith does the trick.

I would still suggest the DS to someone with a older CRT TV or smaller LCD. It really has some nice features. If I like the Zenith better I'll probably give the DS to my mother for one of her older 13" CRT TV's. Should look just fine on those.

I was able to eliminate the dot crawl and shimmer by cranking down the sharpness and contrast and disable any SVM.

Totally agree. I think the Zenith is better for a larger 16:9 TV because it does 4:3 content right, but I think the DS is a better box for a 4:3 TV.

What I now get using composite eliminates the issues S-Video would eliminate. I'm using it on a 57" screen so it should look fine any aything smaller.

Head to head comparison concentrating on PQ
I purchased both the Digital Stream D9900 and Zenith 900 and this is my comparison. I also own a Panasonic DVDR EZ-28 w/digital tuner and will compare that as well.
My display is a Panasonic 720p 32" LCD. To get the fairest test for all 3 I fed the DS into Line input 1 of DVDR and the Zenith into the Line 2 input of the DVDR and the DVDR fed my TV via HDMI upconverted to 1080i. This way I was able to select from the DVDR either the DS, Zenith or it's own built in SD tuner, all outputted to the same HDMI input on my TV.

PQ:
Neither box was as good for 480i, 720p and 1080i programs as the DVDR's tuner. The DVDR was a little sharper on 480i, MUCH sharper on 720p and sharper on 1080i broadcasts. I'm not sure what's up with the DVDR's tuner on 720p channels because I have tried NUMEROUS times on MANY programs and 720p programs tuned through the DVDR is actually "slightly" better than my TV's true HD tuner. Both are great but for whatever reason the DVDR's output is actually slightly sharper(noticeable in hair and something like a tweed jacket or peoples faces). Yes the TV inputs have all been calibrated and should be similar with the same source. Their is a slight amount more noise via the DVDR's tuner vs. the TV's and NO if recording the end DVD does not look as good as the passthru signal(but pretty darn good if using 1 or 2 hr speed).
The Zenith box is maybe 10?% sharper than the DS box. Not much but at times noticeable if I'm looking for it.
Testing RF out of both boxes, they both were a step down in PQ from composite. The Zenith box did have about a 20% drop in volume level via RF out. Otherwise no problems with audio fidelity on either box.

Following are a some other misc. notes about each box:

Overscan:
DS box cuts off the bottom 3/4" of the screen. Cuts off part of the ticker on some channels. The Zenith box did not do this via composite but did cut off about 5/8" using RF out.
RF:
Zenith box was MUCH better on getting a channel that I have severe multipath problems with. On my older Panny TV I get ~50-80% signal on this channel. On my DVDR I get about 80-90% on the Zenith it got 85-95% and on the DS it only got 15-40%. It would break up at times(like my TV occasionally does). For comparison I tried swapping the DS and Zenith RF cables and the same findings. The signal is strong but does have multipath problems. This tells me the Zenith box has a much better tuner for multipath although without the multipath the DS would be just fine. Both boxes worked just fine on a my weakest channel coming in at 60% consistently.
Heat:
Both boxes draw <1 watt off and 5 watts on(measured) but the plastic cased DS got quite warm to the touch. The metal cased Zenith ran cool and was also heavier so it didn't slide around as much.
UI/display:
The DS box's OSD was slightly cartoonish, the lines weren't smooth but jagged. The Zenith was clearer and not jagged.
Remotes:
The Zenith remote was nice and small/skinny. The DS remote felt a little cheaper by comparison although this can be subjective. The DS controlled my TV's volume, channel, input and power. The Zenith only controlled my TV's power.
Guide:
The biggest thing going for the DS box, and to me this IS a big thing, the 30 hr EPG. The DS will go out 30 hrs(if the station goes out that far) while the Zenith is only NEXT/NOW and has NO description of the next show, unlike the DS which gives descriptions for even coming programs. One plus on the Zenith is it's ability to stay on a channel and display all the NEXT/NOW for the other channels. On the DS you actually had to tune to that channel to see the guide.
Signal meter:
Both boxes have a nice 0-100% signal meter, the DS box stays on the screen until you push the SIGNAL button again. The Zenith has a audio beeping feature(like a giger counter) which would be handy for working behind the boxes if you can't see the screen. The beeping gets faster when the signal is stronger. The Zenith signal meter times out after a couple minutes.
Aspect ratio:
The DS box if setup for WS output will display 16:9 programs correctly but will stretch SD programs to 16:9. No way to turn this off except to change in setup menu to 4:3 display, but then you don't get 16:9 programs in full screen.
The Zenith box handled this much better. If you setup the box for 4:3 you get the most flexibility. You have a choice to stretch 4:3 to fill 16:9 screen or leave as 4:3. You setup each channel independently. Most SD channels I setup for 4:3 output but one, our local 4:3 weather channel I prefer to fill the screen. If you setup the box for 16:9 in the menu 16:9 programs comes out full screen and 4:3 programs are always 4:3, you don't get the option to stretch to fill 16:9 screen.

summary:
I liked everything about the Zenith box better than the DS except one important thing to me. I REALLY like the 30 hr EPG on the DS, but I will keep the Zenith because of everything else. I'm still waiting for my ideal box. One with full EPG, and S-video out. I'll keep looking, but for now the Zenith is pretty darn good. I'm going to give the DS to my mother for her 13" CRT TV. She'll appreciate the guide and not care about any of the Zenith features I like.
For someone with a 16:9 TV I would suggest the Zenith. For someone with a 4:3 TV (and no severe multipath problems) I would suggest the DS box. They are both pretty decent boxes.

Pretty much with the above observations.

The DS can properly display the 4:3 channels on a 16:9 display if you turn off anamorphic mode and then g back to your 16:9 displays aspect ratio and turn it back to normal mode from its anamorphic DVD (widescreen full etc,) watching mode. In that case you may get grey pillerboxes from your display. To get 16:9 widescreen back in the DS box , you would have to toggle back to anamorphic and switch your display to its anamorphic mode. YMMV

On topic for here

So the DS will work for 4:3 but then you lose 16:9 if it's available? I guess I still prefer the Zenith. With that box you can setup each channel the way you want. Stretch, full screen or pillar box. A little more flexibility. My biggest surprise was how poorly the DS handled multipath, granted most people won't have it but if they do the Zenith is the one to get. I'm just lucky(for the test) I had it, otherwise I'd have assumed they were both the same. That's why I swapped the coax. With the drastic differences I wanted to make sure their wasn't something wrong with the feed, their wasn't. You don't actually lose anything. You get 16:9 properly with the DS also. Both can do both 4:3 and 16:9 OAR correctly, its just the Zenith is easier as you don't have to adjust the display for some of the 4:3 stations that you may have to do using the Digital Stream CECB box.

It just that with the DS some of the 4:3 sub channel stations do not anamorphically squeeze. They stay at 4:3 while the main 4:3 channels and the HD 1:9 anamorphically squeeze. So if you have your 16:9 set set to anamorphically stretch that input , some 4:3 channels get short fat people mode as normal 4:3 aspect ratio channels are stretched and extended to 16:9. But of course you could just toggle from anamorphic /full /widescreen/ DVD watching mode to normal mode for those channels. The way to correct that is for those channels you go back to normal aspect mode on your display. How big a pain in the butt that is depends on you display, so YMMV.

So even with the DM, you can watch all channel in correct 4:3 or 16:9 OAR, you just have to switch your display stretch mode for some of the 4:3 stations.

With the Zenith , it seems to do so automatically in its 16:9 TV aspect ratio up mode. YMMV

With the Zenith it seemed easier to get a better effective 16:9 HD picture on the 1:9 display, but the end results were about the same.

Just an update.

When I connected both the composite and RF 75 ohm coax connections at the same time on the Zenith, I got some sort of slight wavy interference on the composite picture.

It went away when I disconnected the RF coax connection.

That may explain why I liked the RF picture earlier in this thread.

Noticeable on a down converted HD 16:9 picture as a wavy shimmering on dark lines.

Might be an issue if you are using both the RF an composite outs at the same time (like in using a mono VCR with the RF connection)

Wow. Interesting findings here.

I first connected the DigitalStream DTX9900 using the composite connection (using both a 6 foot set of high quality RCA composite cables and then a set of component cables) . I was less than impressed with the SD digital channels being sent and OK with the 1080i HD 16:9 result. But I saw some clear shimmer, dot crawl and clay face lose of color depth compared to a true 1080i60 HD signal. The Zenith CECB looked better at first using its composite and 75 ohm outputs.

But then I switched to the coax ANT (75 ohm) output of the DigitalStream DTX 9900 and plugged that into my ANT1 input to my Toshiba 57HDX82 NTSC 16:9 rear projection HDTV.

Wow.


Standard def digital channels now look even better than the Zenith and the shimmer is gone. Their might have been cross talk on the 6 foot composite cables or the HDTV is optimized for upconverting on the ANT (75ohm) in.

Either way, I happy with the result.

Most amazingly, this down convert upconvert kludgey chain works extremely well on actual native 1080i60 HD material. I was able to compare (edit: multiple (3)) HD channels of my SA8300 HD cable box and the OTA HD 1080i60 version processed thru the DS box which down converted to anamorphic 480i60 and then feed thru the cable ANT out back to be upconverted by my HDTV. The result was astonishing on the 57" rear projection HDTV. Not quite HD , but I had to look hard to see the background difference. Certainly very watchable and light years beyond the crappy 4:3 analog version of CBS that I lived with before.

I am a real happy camper. All of the digital stations I can grab now are superior to their analog versions on my HD cable box. Not quit HD , but very much better than I expected.

The DigitalStream DTX9900 CECB using the ANT (75 ohm) out (do not only try and use the composite out. try the coax out as well ), is the clear winner here when connected to a larger NTSC tuner based HDTV.

I also connected it to the 27 and 32 inch 4:3 CRT TVs I have as well. Overall the DigitalStream DTX9900 looked good there too.

It will be my clear recommendation between the two.


Night and day difference. Now looks even better than the Zenith did. As a matter of fact, it now looks better on the 1080i60 down converted to 480i60 by the DigitalStream CECB (using anamorphic mode) and then back upconverted back to 1080i60 by the HDTV.

Kosty,
I don't understand why you are using a DTV converter box with a HDTV. You already have an ATSC tuner in your HDTV, so why are downconverting a HDTV ATSC signal and then feeding a SD signal to your HDTV. Why, it don't make sense.

Night and day difference. Now looks even better than the Zenith did. As a matter of fact, it now looks better on the 1080i60 down converted to 480i60 by the DigitalStream CECB (using anamorphic mode) and then back upconverted back to 1080i60 by the HDTV.

Kosty,
I don't understand why you are using a DTV converter box with a HDTV. You already have an ATSC tuner in your HDTV, so why are downconverting a HDTV ATSC signal and then feeding a SD signal to your HDTV. Why, it don't make sense.

Not to bash you, but the old "Toshiba 57HDX82 NTSC 16:9 rear projection HDTV" does not have an ATSC tuner. This is why Kosty is trying to find our which ATSC 480i tuner will look best without the added cost of buying a HDTV ATSC tuner.

Night and day difference. Now looks even better than the Zenith did. As a matter of fact, it now looks better on the 1080i60 down converted to 480i60 by the DigitalStream CECB (using anamorphic mode) and then back upconverted back to 1080i60 by the HDTV.

Kosty,
I don't understand why you are using a DTV converter box with a HDTV. You already have an ATSC tuner in your HDTV, so why are downconverting a HDTV ATSC signal and then feeding a SD signal to your HDTV. Why, it don't make sense. I do not have a ATSC tuner in my Toshiba 57 inch HDTV, only a NTSC one. As stated in the OP, I use an HD cable box, a Scientific Atlanta 8300 HDC for my HD needs for that display. I also have a HD front projector with another HD cable box and HD DVD an Blu-ray player for movie viewing. Only issue for me is a lone analog 4:3 signal for CBS being broadcast in 4:3 with a weak signal on my cable system.

It has pretty good upconversion. I only want the CECB to be used for a couple shows, mostly CBS golf and maybe CBS football. The local situation with HD CBS being on cable may not exist by the fall.

As I stated above , using both boxes the widescreen 480i60 CECB output actually looks pretty good after being upconverted back to 1080i60 on that deeply using the composite input (with RF not being used) The Zenith has a slightly better picture.

I know its not really HD, but it works for about $20 for my needs.

If my local situation doesn't change by the fall. I'd probably get a real HD ATSC tuner for the display.

Not to bash you, but the old "Toshiba 57HDX82 NTSC 16:9 rear projection HDTV" does not have an ATSC tuner. This is why Kosty is trying to find our which ATSC 480i tuner will look best without the added cost of buying a HDTV ATSC tuner. I'm being cheap. :p

Its one station I have an issue with, it may be resolved soon, and I have other sources (HD cable boxes , HD DVD and Blu-ray) and displays for HD content.

My 5? year old 57" CRT HDTV is actually my small secondary set now , used mostly for daytime viewing, news, sports, and mostly SD stuff. For major movie and nighttime viewing I use my front projector and a wall sized screen.

With the Zenith, I can tweak my display so that the widescreen 480i60 output off an HD station back upconverted to 1080i60 looks very close to cable HD on my analog CRT HDTV. Its a noticeable downgrade from HD DVD Blu-ray or OTA true HD 1080i60 or 720p, but its a heck of a lot better than my low power analog 480i60 4:3 signal I could get before off my cable system. It serves my needs.

NTSC Analog 4:3 OTA was not worth the trouble for me.

Buying a real ATSC HD tuner for the one station on that display is not worth the cost to me.

Upconverted widescreen 16:9 digital 480i60 off the CECB for $20 is.

Thought it useful to share my experiences here.

FWIW, I've now tweaked my settings for the Zenith so that the HD channels really look good now. I had to putz with the sharpness , color, contrast and brightness (mostly turning them to lower settings) . But the results are very good. Most of my friends cannot see that difference between that output now after my sets upconversion and the cable widescreen HD 1080i60 feed of the HD channels I can now get. I can see the difference, but I'm more critical than they are. I've eventually gotten the Zenith to look a bit better than the DigitalStream.

My cable HD versions of 4:3 digital content look slightly better, but the widescreen HD 1080i60 or 720p60 content look pretty darn close. The results are far better than I expected.

I also switched to high quality 6' composite cables. That may have reduced some video interference and improved the picture into that large display.

FWIW

Watched some of my widescreen HD CBS shows this weekend on the Zenith CECB box.

Wasn't HD but it looked as good as most of my digital cable stations, and it was 16:9 to boot. Works for me as a temporary solution to not having CBS on my HD cable box.

Not bad for $20 bucks.

Great topic! I figured the Zenith would win.

I am surprised it did so well all things considered on a 57" !!! I expect it would work well to 32"...

From Consumer Reports

"Connection quirks. When we connected the RF and composite outputs to the TV simultaneously—which you might do to hook up a TV and VCR, for example—the Zenith and the Insignia showed "fixed pattern" interference noise on the composite-video feed.

The composite-video output of the Insignia also showed an intermittent image blurring on some programs with the sample we tested."

"Zenith didn't show the same quirks as the Insignia did when we used the composite-video output, so we would choose the Zenith."

Any comments?

Great topic- that's a real test on 57"!

Very well done. :cool:

Thanks.

No reason not to post good and bad.

I noticed some similar interference but it did go away when I disconnected the RF connection.

I would say the Consumer Reports review is accurate here, and if you are using the Zenith on a larger TV, its best to use only the composite feed and not connect the RF input at the same time.

I did not notice the issue all the time, but I did see it on some sporting events and on some computer generated graphics. Pretty much went away when I unplugged the RF coax connection and used only the composite cables. When I switched to heavy high quality composite or used component cables for the connection it was even better.

Like I said, it was not really HD, but it was like good upconverted digital cable. YMMV of course.

I bought two May built DTT901s yesterday with family coupons, I have previously used the DS and Magnavox as well as a Feb and April built DTT 900.

The Zenith DTT901 (May built) seems to be improved to me it signal response and overall menu remote control responsiveness. Tuning between stations is now pretty much instantaneous, and some minor artifacting is now resolved. Audio range sems to be a better match for my TVs.

Pretty good box for $20. Not sure how much better it can be for the task.

Recommended.

Just an update here.

I got the newest version of the Zenith the DTT901 (mine was built in May) from my Circuit City. Handed down my older boxes to family members.

The Zenith DTT901 is even more improved for use with my older 16:9 rear projection HDTV that does not have a ATSC tuner.

I would now recommend the DTT901 to someone in my situation. Its obviously not a HD signal, buts its a DVD quality widescreen signal for a 16:9 ratio TV. 4:3 material is also properly pillarboxed in the correct aspect ratio automatically.

In addition , you can set individual channel zoom settings that will stay that way even after changing channels and going back.