The last movie I saw in a theater was Transformers. The presentation sucked:
1) Out of focus on one side
2) Running lights too bright - washed out image
3) Right side/rear channel sound completely out
4) Remaining speakers overdriven - painful to listen to
4) Noisy kids
5) 6) 7) 8) ....
1000000) You want me to go on? - my list would fill Alan's servers! :mad:

So, why can't I watch a movie in my awesome home theater on the same day it's released to the crappy multiplex theaters? I assume:
1) It's already in a video format
2) A secure delivery system is already available - PPV via Sat/Cable
I would demand that the signal be presented with full HD bandwidth.
Price? $25 sounds reasonable for all parties.

What's preventing this from happening? The theater owners of course. But Hollywood is always looking for new revenue streams, and although the market for same day release availibility for home markets might always remain small, it would be thick icing on the bottom line cake.

What do you think?

I'm confident it will. Some information floating that it will be this year. It won't be cheap initially.

Art

I hope so..

Could Hollywood use the current PPV model - partner with Comcast/Verizon/etc and HBO (HBO PPV Premieres maybe), or would it make sense to create a separate delivery system? I know that a number of studios are looking to form a new subscription movie channel:
WSJ: Cable and satellite-TV operators gave an icy reception to plans by three movie companies for the launch of a new pay-television channel next year, indicating that the new channel may have a tough time angling its way into homes.

Viacom Inc.'s Paramount Pictures, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios Inc. and Lions Gate Entertainment Corp. Sunday announced plans to start their own premium TV channel, in hopes of reaping monthly subscriber fees. The move came instead of renewing their lucrative movie-supply deals with CBS Corp.'s Showtime Networks, after Showtime proposed cutting the fees it currently pays the studios.

if they use the current PPV model, keep in mind you cannot save the recorded movie for longer than 24 hours once first viewed (DirecTV just announced this) unless you archive it to another platform

I'm aware of at least one provider currently trying to do a "Premiere" deal with studios. The figure that was thrown about was $49.99 ppv, one time view. No idea of any further developments.

I personally would love it. It would be a particularly attractive option with a large dedicated HT........Kudos Maximus

If you have the contacts in the DCI world, and the equipment, its already possible.

Mark, I assume that the "view once flag" would be used. You watch it real time - no saving. I assume that you could buffer for some length of time (not sure about this) if you have a PVR and need a bathroom break.

No way would Hollywood allow us to archive a first run movie.

Yes, first run opening day content with DCI capable projection systems is coming this year.This would include full bit depth color unlike BD.



Art

For some reason it didnt happen, but i do remember this from last year:


UberPulse has learned that, for the first time in Hollywood's history, a local studio, namely Paramount, will release next month's live-action Transformers movie, on cable pay-per-view, the same day it premiere's in US theatres, on July 3rd. But don't hold your breath... the price tag for that special night might deter more than one: $49!


At this price, it makes sense to watch a blockbuster at home instead of going to the theatres, only if you have a really nice home theatre system and invite lots of family and friends. And that's exactly how Hollywood is trying to convince the theatres: that those people, who owns such home theatre systems, are not going to the cinemas anyway.

We have also learned that movie theatres are very reluctant to release that content as they have the right on it for the first six months it is released a.k.a the first window of exclusivity... But the writing is on the wall. So expect more experiments like this one, more often... cheaper... until the death of theatres!

some day yes but not soon.

for sure not this year and my guess is also not next year.

i know that here are some very optimistic poster and reader but it will be the same
story like laser pr.

most of us me include not like to read what i post here now and i hope
i was wrong but again i not see it that soon.
i know some vips from the studios and i talk about that sice long time with
them about that issue.

At this price, it makes sense to watch a blockbuster at home instead of going to the theatres, only if you have a really nice home theatre system and invite lots of family and friends. And that's exactly how Hollywood is trying to convince the theatres: that those people, who owns such home theatre systems, are not going to the cinemas anyway.
My point exactly! ;)
Even DC's showcase theater - the once glorious Uptown - lacks in presentation quality nowadays. We passionate movie lovers will no longer fork over $10 for a miserable experience. Let me enjoy a first run movie in the best theater around - my own! :D

First run availability in a consumer format would be too large a market and theater owners would block it. The only possibility would be DC or a DC lite format that would have a market large enough to interest the studios, but not so large to upset the theater owners. In any case, actual DC content during the theatrical release would cost at least $10,000 for limited viewing. Delayed release at the same time as the consumer formats would be much less, but still in the $1000 range for limited viewing. This would be for major studio releases. Indies and foreign films would be less. The main problem is that the potential market for DC content is too small because of the cost of the projector required.

First run availability in a consumer format would be too large a market and theater owners would block it. The only possibility would be DC or a DC lite format that would have a market large enough to interest the studios, but not so large to upset the theater owners. In any case, actual DC content during the theatrical release would cost at least $10,000 for limited viewing. Delayed release at the same time as the consumer formats would be much less, but still in the $1000 range for limited viewing. This would be for major studio releases. Indies and foreign films would be less. The main problem is that the potential market for DC content is too small because of the cost of the projector required.

Interesting,without discussing the source, I'm hearing a little different story as far as pricing on the film itself.

Art

Interesting,without discussing the source, I'm hearing a little different story as far as pricing on the film itself.

Art

Very different indeed.

Film has similar pricing anomalies, but not for same day.

$49 sounds too cheap to me.

Assuming there are 100,000 movie-worthy home theaters in the U.S. and a 10% participation rate (too high) any pricetag less than $100 would net the studios less than a $1M a week.
Too low of a sum to even consider doing.

$49 sounds too cheap to me.

Assuming there are 100,000 movie-worthy home theaters in the U.S. and a 10% participation rate (too high) any pricetag less than $100 would net the studios less than a $1M a week.
Too low of a sum to even consider doing.

I think you grossly underestimate the potential catchment figures. "movie-worthy" has utterly nothing to do with it. Weather an individual will pay is all that matters, there will be plenty of people who would pay to watch on their plasmas etc. Customer testing in the U.K. showed the idea of £25, to be attractive for same day release.

Your statement that the price is too low to "even consider" is factually incorrect ,as I stated in a post above. I know that the possibility has been discussed extensively in the U.S., Canada and the U.K. The main issue is security and piracy protection not audience numbers, thats a fact. I don't see it as directly competing with theaters as much as a new business model and revenue stream.

While not quite the same thing, Hollywood doesn't seem to have much issue with a pay-per-view system with theatrically running films. I've been in several hotels that have films still playing in theaters available for pay-per-view in room. How would this be much different than that? Even if they delayed the release to the home market by a week I'm sure there would be plenty of interest depending on the delivery system and price to view. I'd be more than happy to pay a modest price for a one time viewing if the quality of the presentation was up to snuff. For my wife and I to catch a matinee right now and just have a drink and share a small popcorn is in the mid-$30's. So $50 isn't unreasonable, especially if you have friends over to help absorb the price.

While not quite the same thing, Hollywood doesn't seem to have much issue with a pay-per-view system with theatrically running films. I've been in several hotels that have films still playing in theaters available for pay-per-view in room. How would this be much different than that? Even if they delayed the release to the home market by a week I'm sure there would be plenty of interest depending on the delivery system and price to view. I'd be more than happy to pay a modest price for a one time viewing if the quality of the presentation was up to snuff. For my wife and I to catch a matinee right now and just have a drink and share a small popcorn is in the mid-$30's. So $50 isn't unreasonable, especially if you have friends over to help absorb the price.

Thats the model under discussion in the 3 countries I mentioned. The only difference being that its same day thats being discussed.

OK - maybe same day would be unrealistic. I can wait a week ;)
It would have to be no more that the typical premium PPV ($49 seems to be the max for sports events). I think it would be a terrific revenue stream for Hollywood. As for the crappy movie house chains, frankly, 90% of them could go belly up and close for all I care.

Day and Date releases. Mark Cuban and Steven Soderburgh (sp) were involved in attempting this last year. some movie where there is a doll factory in town and somebody gets killed i seem to recall. bubble it was called.

THe point was exactly what you are tlaking about here. cubans angle was to make it an HDnet PPV. not sure of pricing.

I think that their thinking was along the lines of "lots of movies that you might now otherwise see would be very popular if you could get it at home.

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS243&q=day+and+date+releases&btnG=Google+Search

lots on both sides

Here's an angle for Hollywood to consider: movies that are by nature adult in theme and scope - think Charlie Wilson's War - would benefit from D/D release. Why? Becuase the adults that this movie appeals to are frankly 'over' the movie house experience. BTW, CWW bombed at the box office, but I bet will be a huge DVD seller.

Sure, mindless, testosterone-charged blockbusters can have their $120 mil weekend release, because their teenaged audience loves the group experience that one can get in a mall theater. And the theater owners will love the filled seats, if only for a weekend or two, to sell their lousy overpriced popcorn. I can wait a month for these titles.

I believe there is a market for that at premium prices if the quality is there.

Art

quality = deep color?

Would that do it for you Art?

Certainly deeper bit depth would be a plus compared to what we see with BD. Realistically, there are only a hand full here and there of new releases which would be worth it to me. None the less,it is exciting.

Art

The business model of movies is primarily based on the box office collection. This was the case for decades. DVD and blu-ray is a secondary source of income. I do not think studios will even think of touching this bread and butter model by releasing the movies on the disk that could impact on the box office collection. They will keep the disk to milk the market for the second time. PPV is different to the disk and closely aligns with the existing model, i.e. PPV in the cinemas.

if you look at the link i sent, one of the articles talks about how the chains consider day and date release to be a declaration of war.

The reality at the end of the day is that people with true theatres at home who can do better than a theatre experience are so few as to not be a viable market. So the theatre folks assume that day and date release means folks watching MI9 on their 42 inch plasma.

Movies like Bubble are no match for Hollywood grand productions with multi million dollar budgets. Direct-to-disk could be the way forward for small productions if they cannot attract studios/theaters and also TV networks.

I think this content is a kind of "holy grail" for home cinema owners. While it's true that there may not be a huge number of dedicated rooms like many here have, I think there are really just as many folks with 42" plasmas in the living room who would pay for same day releases. If the studios think they can make money with this then it WILL happen. I don't believe it will put much of a dent in commercial theaters' business. I would pay a premium right now for the ability to watch the new Indiana Jones in my own theater. What would that premium be? I think $50 would be acceptable but I would pay up to $100, as long as we are talking same day release. I think price would have to depend on the title. Like I said, I'd pay $100 to "rent" the new Indy but I wouldn't pay that much for Sex in the City. Who knows where this will go but I am eager to see how it all pans out.

Certainly deeper bit depth would be a plus compared to what we see with BD. Realistically, there are only a hand full here and there of new releases which would be worth it to me. None the less,it is exciting.

Art

What delivery method are you anticipating here, Art- as I'm continually un-impressed with cable/sat HD (PPV or not) as a quality source. :( Just confused and curious...

I just see way too many issues with this to become reality.

Let's say it costs (only) $100 to "rent" the movie on opening night, delivered via fiber overnight and remotely unlocked for a specific period of time (24hrs?) only to be played once via a DCI server on a DCI projector (Mega $$$ Hi End HT of course). Each copy can have a encrypted S/N that can be traced back to the HT owner if it is stolen or copied. A nice sum as deposit would also be a good insurance play.

What's to stop the owner of the HT from charging 20-30 people $20 a piece to show the movie to them?

How do you think Hollywood and movie theater operators will react to that?

Or, even take the best case scenario where the HT owner invites 20-30 people over to watch the movie for free.

Do you think that will go over well?
I didn't think so...

Now if the rental fee was $1,000, I can see Hollywood turning a blind eye to it.
But the theater owners will still be miffed.

A non-starter if you ask me.
PS Funnily enough, at $1,000 a pop, I see a much bigger chance of it succeeding than at $100 a pop. But the theater chains would have to get a cut of that in order to proceed.
Imagine all the global multimillionaires showing off their HT on opening day and the price of admission is only $1,000? A surefire success if you ask me. There's TONS of new money all over the globe, it's not just America anymore...
PPS Yeah, even "little" players like Art can participate... :D

I took my 88 YO Dad to see Indian Jones Monday. The showing was at one of the better movie houses in Northern VA. BTW, we both loved the movie.

As for the presentation:
1) The picture was soft, washed out, lacking resolution and decent contrast ratios. Maybe this was Spielberg's intention, but I seriously doubt it.
2) The sound was fair, but tended to come from the left side of the auditorium. Limited dynamic range (loud, period) and frequency response.

With a well mastered Blu-ray copy and DTS-MA sound, I can guarantee the presentation would be superior in my HT - it would be superior for just about every AVS member who has a dedicated HT. If a delivery mechanism can be instituted that meets Blu-ray standards (via FIOS?), I don't see why a day/date release to Enthusiast Joe HT wouldn't be a nice little revenue stream for Hollywood, but be small enough to not have the threater owners freak.

I took my 88 YO Dad to see Indian Jones Monday. The showing was at one of the better movie houses in Northern VA. BTW, we both loved the movie.

As for the presentation:
1) The picture was soft, washed out, lacking resolution and decent contrast ratios. Maybe this was Spielberg's intention, but I seriously doubt it.
2) The sound was fair, but tended to come from the left side of the auditorium. Limited dynamic range (loud, period) and frequency response.

With a well mastered Blu-ray copy and DTS-MA sound, I can guarantee the presentation would be superior in my HT - it would be superior for just about every AVS member who has a dedicated HT. If a delivery mechanism can be instituted that meets Blu-ray standards (via FIOS?), I don't see why a day/date release to Enthusiast Joe HT wouldn't be a nice little revenue stream for Hollywood, but be small enough to not have the threater owners freak.

What you saw was mainlythe limitation of your cinemas equipment and a print that may have run many times. I have seen private screenings recently (after Alans prodding) where the source, both digital and film, is very clearly superior to Blu Ray. I will be posting on this soon with some screen shots from film that will be a revelation compared to cinema.

Dont forget there is a legal minimum light level in commercial cinemas and this impacts the image and possibilities massively. Audio compression in the venue is normal too, for obvious reasons.

There are systems slated for CEDIA that will offer better than BD content on correspondingly capable PJs.

What you saw was mainlythe limitation of your cinemas equipment and a print that may have run many times. I have seen private screenings recently where the source, both digital and film, is very clearly superior to Blu Ray.
Poor me, I don't have regular access to private screenings :rolleyes:

There are systems slated for CEDIA that will offer better than BD content on correspondingly capable PJs.
I'm well aware of what's coming down the pike. Currently, I'm under a NDA ;)

I can see having a few opening night parties for 10-20 guests, much like I host Superbowl and Final four, but at $1000 a pop I would not do it.....

Poor me, I don't have regular access to private screenings :rolleyes:

Not sure what you mean by that, could you clarify, and explain the sarcastic eye roll?

A guess as far as the mode ,content and final price we have to see. I don't know if I personally have enpgh reasons to want first day but but full DCI content in color bandwidth etc that is a different story. Time will tell.

Art

What's your price Art?
How much are you willing to spend for a pristine DCI copy of a movie for a single viewing?
Is $50 too much? Too little?

The whole "first day" idea is that it makes the movie more desirable and hence people would be willing to pay more.

I just don't see people wanting to shell out $$$ to watch POTC...

I will be posting on this soon with some screen shots from film that will be a revelation compared to cinema.


I look forward to your posting.
But this begs the question: what constitutes cinema today? If the only way one can truly experience "cinema' is via private screenings under extreme controlled conditions, then what is the point for the masses that don't have that option?

PS: I know this subject has been battered around on AVS. But from what I know that will be shortly available to the well-heeled consumer, 4K/DCI is a reality that will redefine HT cinema presentation. The HT enthusiast will better even the best of the commercial theaters.

I look forward to your posting.
But this begs the question: what constitutes cinema today? If the only way one can truly experience "cinema' is via private screenings under extreme controlled conditions, then what is the point for the masses that don't have that option?

PS: I know this subject has been battered around on AVS. But from what I know that will be shortly available to the well-heeled consumer, 4K/DCI is a reality that will redefine HT cinema presentation. The HT enthusiast will better even the best of the commercial theaters.

I see my request for an explanation of the sarcastic eye roll remains unanswered. It seems you misunderstood the phrase "private screening".

"Private Screening" is a term thats commonly used by film buffs, and all it means is that they're showing a film at home, no matter how old and crappy. My post was actually just addressing the much maligned capabilities of film

That aside, current high end HTs can easily best commercial cinemas. I dont think we need 4k to do that as were not even close to extracting the best from 2k. I would be happy with a 1080 machine that delivers the huge data rate, color and gamma of DC1 but with HT contrast levels.

I look forward to your posting.
But this begs the question: what constitutes cinema today? If the only way one can truly experience "cinema' is via private screenings under extreme controlled conditions, then what is the point for the masses that don't have that option?

PS: I know this subject has been battered around on AVS. But from what I know that will be shortly available to the well-heeled consumer, 4K/DCI is a reality that will redefine HT cinema presentation. The HT enthusiast will better even the best of the commercial theaters.

The new JVC 4k consumer projector will not be DCI, It would need to be the scaler, not the projector. The projectors input is FOUR DVI connectors. There is no single connector technology available that can handle the 4K data rate

. I would be happy with a 1080 machine that delivers the huge data rate, color and gamma of DC1 but with HT contrast levels.

Do you see this happening without modification ? I think we will see 4K with problems before we see that.

Art

Do you see this happening without modification ? I think we will see 4K with problems before we see that.

Art

I think we will obviously see new 1080 DCI certified machines. What I don't know is whether the filters on machines like the 5k can be swapped out to meet the color spec. Im sure that if its possible it will be offered

This would also bring up the question whether existing machines could run the new software. ans whether there are other hardware requirements.

I agree with you that we will see 4k machines with issues, but I think we will see 2k DCI machines that function well simply because of the maturity. I think we will also see CRs rise with it becoming a non issue in 2 years.

My question to those that talk up 4k projectors: show me the source material. Until I get an answer, spending $$$ for 4k projectors is very hard to justify.

I don't think there will be a 2k model - two companies I know of are going straight to 4k.

My question to those that talk up 4k projectors: show me the source material. Until I get an answer, spending $$$ for 4k projectors is very hard to justify.

I don't think there will be a 2k model - two companies I know of are going straight to 4k.

There will be 2k machines.

One way or another this is going to be the most interesting CEDIA since 1080p machines first hit IMO.

Art

One way or another this is going to be the most interesting CEDIA since 1080p machines first hit IMO.

Art

Or the most anticlimactic.:D:D

I think you are spot on, and what may make this a special one is that it looks like a lot of the serious action will be at the high end.

If some of these companies get themselves caught up in a dick measuring contest with each other, prior to CEDIA, we could seriously be off to the races.

Looks like my room will remain exactly that for a while yet.

On that note, I wonder if I've just caught a glimpse of an 800lb Gorilla hiding in the room......A DCI certified version of the M80.

Yes, I'm planning to attend. Time to trade in all those mileage points :D

My post was actually just addressing the much maligned capabilities of film
Understood. My :rolleyes: post was meant in jest.

There will be no additional DCI licensees for DLP projectors. There could be extended color gamut DLP projectors, but they will not have DCI security or other features.

There will be no additional DCI licensees for DLP projectors. There could be extended color gamut DLP projectors, but they will not have DCI security or other features.

DCI certification and DCI licensing are 2 separate issues.

Im sure you will find out more as time goes bye.

DCI certification and DCI licensing are 2 separate issues.

Im sure you will find out more as time goes bye.

For DLP, they are the same thing. If TI does not supply 2048x1080 DMDs, you can't meet the DCI spec. Also, a manufacturer would have to duplicate the TI development work, which would be very expensive and beyond the technical capability of the smaller companies.

For DLP, they are the same thing. If TI does not supply 2048x1080 DMDs, you can't meet the DCI spec. Also, a manufacturer would have to duplicate the TI development work, which would be very expensive and beyond the technical capability of the smaller companies.

I understand fully what you say and find no fault with it.

I can go no further at this point.

For DLP, they are the same thing. If TI does not supply 2048x1080 DMDs, you can't meet the DCI spec. Also, a manufacturer would have to duplicate the TI development work, which would be very expensive and beyond the technical capability of the smaller companies.

I understand fully what you say and find no fault with it.

I can go no further at this point.When I can, I will.

Also I think one of the true limits of the current high end 3 chip DLP's has been source content, I think/hope that will change at CEDIA

I don't know why you guys bitch so much about the quality of BD, some of it looks pretty darn good on the SK.

Or the most anticlimactic.:D:D

I think you are spot on, and what may make this a special one is that it looks like a lot of the serious action will be at the high end.

If some of these companies get themselves caught up in a dick measuring contest with each other, prior to CEDIA, we could seriously be off to the races.

Looks like my room will remain exactly that for a while yet.

On that note, I wonder if I've just caught a glimpse of an 800lb Gorilla hiding in the room......A DCI certified version of the M80.

And then again the solution to all your anxieties may be arriving the coast in two weeks. The SK MKII.

I don't know why you guys bitch so much about the quality of BD, some of it looks pretty darn good on the SK.

I don't. I think its excellent. That doesn't mean I don't want better.

And then again the solution to all your anxieties may be arriving the coast in two weeks. The SK MKII.

I look forward to reading your modest restrained eulogies.:D

[QUOTE=coldmachine;13968620]I think we will obviously see new 1080 DCI certified machines. QUOTE]

They would have to get the studios to revise the DCI spec to allow 1920, I don't see that happening. I also find it hard to beleive that studios, TI or anyone else would risk the pending rollout of 2k DLP Cinema projectors by introducing a new variable at this time.

Much less a uhp powered one. That won't fly, maybe for the pre-show advertisements of local chinese buffet restaurants, and muffler repair shops.:D

That won't fly, maybe for the pre-show advertisements of local chinese buffet restaurants, and muffler repair shops.:D

Dont forget the commercials for douchebag installers, wearing a robe and crown, calling themselves "The Kontrast King":D

Much less a uhp powered one. That won't fly, maybe for the pre-show advertisements of local chinese buffet restaurants, and muffler repair shops.:D

Pretty soon Peter that crowd of one you lead needs a few more voices.. I need for you to set some sort of date for me to visit one of your installations pretty soon. With my work and lifestyle, I very much need to plan ahead.

Art

As soon as I can get an audience with Helene's owner I will ask his permission, I am thinking this will be next week. In the meantime we are pushing the construction at Prometheus so that there is an image by the second half of July. Just one more week Art.

As soon as I can get an audience with Helene's owner I will ask his permission, I am thinking this will be next week. In the meantime we are pushing the construction at Prometheus so that there is an image by the second half of July. Just one more week Art.

Thanks ! Just keeping high profile so you keep me in mind. ;)

Art

Dont forget the installers, wearing a robe and crown, calling themselves "The Kontrast King":D

Hey when youv'e got it flaunt it.

Some artistic license taken with the quote.:)