I mean older tvs lasted along time. Now it seem you can get a tv to last past 2 or 3yrs...Why seems like the plasma it doesnt matter who makes there is problems with them. Is there any flat panel out there that has no problems...just asking...

DO you have some examples? As I would not agree

DO you have some examples? As I would not agree

Do you think plasma or lcd sets are going to run for 20 years like crt"s ?

I have a 18 and a 19 year old Hitachi and I couldn't kill them so I doomed them to storage in the basement:D

The OP is talking 2-3 years? I think its just a little longer than that ;)

The technologies are holding up fine. As more and more displays are sold you will see more overall problems but that's just because of the high numbers out there. If you do not have a problem during the first year (warranty) you can expect many years of excellent service.

Most flat panels are rated for 60,000 hours until half brightness, that's 20 years if you watch it 8 hours a day.

Panasonic's newer plasmas have a 100,000 hour rating! That's 34 years at 8 hours a day!

Consumer Reports did a study and found that overall, flat panel TVs were very reliable products.

The technologies are holding up fine. As more and more displays are sold you will see more overall problems but that's just because of the high numbers out there. If you do not have a problem during the first year (warranty) you can expect many years of excellent service.

I guess I'd agree. Most electronics I've owned over the past 20 years have been pretty darned reliable. Except for Sony. I've not had good luck with Sony products. I have a 1930's/1940's style replica stand alone radio made by the Thomas company. It has been running for over 13 straight years and has never been turned off. When we retire at night I turn the volumn down but have never turned the power off.

Most flat panels are rated for 60,000 hours until half brightness, that's 20 years if you watch it 8 hours a day.

Panasonic's newer plasmas have a 100,000 hour rating! That's 34 years at 8 hours a day!

Consumer Reports did a study and found that overall, flat panel TVs were very reliable products.

How do they come to these conclusions:confused:If Panasonic ran their sets 24 hours a day it would take 11.33 years to reach 100,000 hours.

Yeah, right. Does anyone actually believe these new televisions are going to last 20 years?
1. Modern displays generate a lot of heat that degrades interior components.
2. Many displays have fans--if the fans go (and they will) the set will too.
3. A few pixels or transistors fail, the display is effectively finished.
4. CCFL backlights are susceptible to failing early. (How many others out there have had a flourescent go "poof" long before the rated lifespan?)

"Very reliable" is a "very relative" term.

Do you have any proof to back up these statements?

I think its just that AVS members dont wait long enough for their sets to go bad before replacing :)

How do they come to these conclusions:confused:If Panasonic ran their sets 24 hours a day it would take 11.33 years to reach 100,000 hours.

Just as the nurse who takes your pulse comes to the conclusion of it being at 76 ppm after counting 13 pulses in the first 10 seconds. :D

We as AVS'ers do not plan on keeping a flat panel beyond 5 years. That is not within our DNA. Its called the "upgrade bug".

However, if you consider a 3rd tier brand, like AKIA or off brand similar to this you will find that the quality control is not as good and you will run into more issues the longer you keep the display. Stick with displays that have a 1-2 year in-home service warranty, such as LG, Samsung, Pioneer, Panasonic, etc...You should better longevity and better quality control over time.

Chris

They are not holding up: In our family of 3 households. We have been through 4 Mits, 8 Samsungs, 1 Panasonic. All have been very high priced and the quality/reliability is simply not there. The longest lasting has been “one” Samsung at 20 months; currently the record holder for our HDTV’s. They all tend to fail from new out of the box or within about 14 months. Basically, $2,500 pieces of junk. I have about a dozen friends that bought off on the $4,000 SXRDs, and of course they are not happy either.

I was also, in the business for 30 years. The reliability of the TV’s today, pale in comparison to those made in the late 60’s to the mid 90’s.
I am afraid that the day and age of the $500 Trinitron that lasted 20 years is a thing of the past.

If each company, would focus on working the bugs out of a product, and build-in the “reliability” – they all would do better than trying to make the “fastest to market with the latest and greatest” with only 3 month production runs.

When Zenith first started making their first runs of Color TV’s (early 60’s). They touted the “handwired” reliability, because each and every set was in essence custom made by humans. Their slogan was “The Quality Goes In Before the Name Goes On”. The Real Truth: Every Zenith made of the same model number was 100% different because they were handmade. No two of them were alike. In fact, it was a major big time joke in the industry. You could un-box 10 identical Zenith’s, and only 2 out of 10 would work longer than an hour. About 1 in 10, would actually catch fire. That time frame of about 5 years of Zenith was the only time in TV making history that I am aware, that the product had significantly, less reliability then what is made today.

IMO, there is a BIG difference in a $500 trinitron that last 20 years and a HDTV (anybrand) at $3,000 that can not make to 2 years.

They are not holding up: In our family of 3 households. We have been through 4 Mits, 8 Samsungs, 1 Panasonic. All have been very high priced and the quality/reliability is simply not there. The longest lasting has been “one” Samsung at 20 months; currently the record holder for our HDTV’s. They all tend to fail from new out of the box or within about 14 months. Basically, $2,500 pieces of junk. I have about a dozen friends that bought off on the $4,000 SXRDs, and of course they are not happy either.

I was also, in the business for 30 years. The reliability of the TV’s today, pale in comparison to those made in the late 60’s to the mid 90’s.
I am afraid that the day and age of the $500 Trinitron that lasted 20 years is a thing of the past.

If each company, would focus on working the bugs out of a product, and build-in the “reliability” – they all would do better than trying to make the “fastest to market with the latest and greatest” with only 3 month production runs.

When Zenith first started making their first runs of Color TV’s (early 60’s). They touted the “handwired” reliability, because each and every set was in essence custom made by humans. Their slogan was “The Quality Goes In Before the Name Goes On”. The Real Truth: Every Zenith made of the same model number was 100% different because they were handmade. No two of them were alike. In fact, it was a major big time joke in the industry. You could un-box 10 identical Zenith’s, and only 2 out of 10 would work longer than an hour. About 1 in 10, would actually catch fire. That time frame of about 5 years of Zenith was the only time in TV making history that I am aware, that the product had significantly, less reliability then what is made today.

IMO, there is a BIG difference in a $500 trinitron that last 20 years and a HDTV (anybrand) at $3,000 that can not make to 2 years.

My 14 year old Sony 27" Trinitron is still working and the visuals are the same they were 14 years ago... AWESOME!! That TV is simply amazing.

I have a big old Toshiba CRT thats still going strong.

my dad has a i think it was a 40 inch mitsubishi thats been parked infront of a electric heater for the last 10+years only thing wrong with it is the circuits for one of the component jacks is melted lol

if you read the forums is what I'm saying about 5 or 6 out of 10 post are somthing going wrong with there sets. Ex: IR, green lines, dead pixels Etc. etc. I'm not saying that they arent great companys out there but I want a plasma that I know will last atleast 4 or 5yrs with out problems. I see guys and girls on here talking about 1 or 2 yrs having problems. Maybe I'm on the wrong board but I come here for the great info, and I'm not buying a tv every 2yrs. Thats just well to me dum. my 52" RCA HDTV floor model is like 5 yrs old and still working...

Just thought I would ask what others think.

oh yeah and I'm looking for a good 42" or 47" plasma for around $1100 to buy...what do ya'll think a good one is...

We as AVS'ers do not plan on keeping a flat panel beyond 5 years. That is not within our DNA. Its called the "upgrade bug".

.. those in the senior ranks ,like myself, will usually try to suck the blood out of every purchase .. rather it be TV, our vehicle(s), washer/dryer .. etc. In my earlier years, i was trading-in my car roughly every couple years. Now, looking back, i see now how much i wasted & would have kept my previous set if not for the "storm" of '05. I see yewts that are gravitated to every new gadget and having the latest of anything .. a continuation (it seems) of the 'instant gradification' generation. The smart ones will invest in their future .. :)

That is like comparing a push mower to a new lawn mower. The push mower will last loads longer and be more reliable years down the road. OF COURSE IT WILL. It has less components and lower tech. These new displays have a TON more sophisticated electronics, a lot more pieces and thus more can go wrong.

DO you have some examples? As I would not agree

Yes ,I purchased a Pioneer 4271 13 months ago. 10 months later it wouldn't turn on .The main board had to be replaced . Just today while watching Idol , a thin black horozontal line appeared across the screen 2 3/8" from the bottom . TV out of warranty and now has this line that you can see from any distance across the whole screen.I have had 2 32" lcd's for the bedroomand both had issues the first month ( a Vizio and a Samsung) I now have a Shap and cross ny fingers when ever I turn it on . AND NO I DO NOT ABUSE MY "THINGS" . I have a 9 year old John Deere that runs great and never had an issue , same goes from my commercial STHIL Eder ,Trimmer and Shindiawa back pack blower( all commercial equipment I use at home , everything is over 3 years old and runs great and starts every time. The quality on Flat pannel TV'S (IMHO) IS NOT GOOD.

That is like comparing a push mower to a new lawn mower. The push mower will last loads longer and be more reliable years down the road. OF COURSE IT WILL. It has less components and lower tech. These new displays have a TON more sophisticated electronics, a lot more pieces and thus more can go wrong.I was going to point this out...I'm glad someone already did though. However...I do think companies could make their sets more reliable in spite of the complexity and sophisitcation of the electronics. The problem is that CE companies feel the need to release new models with new features every single year....R&D on these new features (and designing new bezels, casing and stands) is very expensive and many times that means cutting corners on some of the components which then become weak links and cause reliability issues.

I was going to point this out...I'm glad someone already did though. However...I do think companies could make their sets more reliable in spite of the complexity and sophisitcation of the electronics. The problem is that CE companies feel the need to release new models with new features every single year....R&D on these new features (and designing new bezels, casing and stands) is very expensive and many times that means cutting corners on some of the components which then become weak links and cause reliability issues.

+1

Though I will say the picture on my 4271 via HD Verizon FIOS is stunning!!! It just happens to have a black thin line running across the screen. Damit !

Just as the nurse who takes your pulse comes to the conclusion of it being at 76 ppm after counting 13 pulses in the first 10 seconds. :D

Obviously that nurse wasn't paying attention in class.:eek:

76PPM ... yeah i know it should have been 78 beats ..... but ... PPM ......parts per million ????

That is like comparing a push mower to a new lawn mower. The push mower will last loads longer and be more reliable years down the road. OF COURSE IT WILL. It has less components and lower tech. These new displays have a TON more sophisticated electronics, a lot more pieces and thus more can go wrong.


Parts are of cheaper quality as well to maximize profit.

I've had my 50" Fujitsu plasma for over 6 yrs (purchased in Feb 2002) and it has not had one single problem during these 6 yrs. Furthermore, my plasma is rated to only 30,000 hrs half-life and it still puts out a fantastically bright picture despite being left on for about 8-10 hrs every day. No hint of any burn-in either despite watching hundreds of 2.35:1 movies with black bars on top and bottom.

I expect to get at least 10 yrs of use out of my plasma, though I will probably upgrade to a 60" or 65" plasma or LCD within the next couple of years.

[QUOTE=v6blue200k;13705279]if you read the forums is what I'm saying about 5 or 6 out of 10 post are somthing going wrong with there sets. Ex: IR, green lines, dead pixels Etc. etc.

Just thought I would ask what others think.
QUOTE]

People post **** that they want to bitch about. So if something goes wrong, someone is about 1000X more likely to post that if everything is AOK. So yeah, if you read the boards, it looks like every panel out there sucks. When in reality, for every poster with a problem there's probably a thousand people issue free. The nature of the internets is to skew and magnify problems that in reality don't occur much.

Also, having a dead pixel or two out of 2 Million is fine - but I see a lot of people complain about it - people who spend this amount of money on a TV have a very high, perhaps too high impression of what should be acceptable. I feel that if it's something you can't see except on close inspection, it's not a problem. I don't deny that some people may notice such things - but I think it's an exception, not the rule.

IMHO pratically everything made today is unrealiable junk compared to what it was 15-20 years ago. My friend's new washer and dryer set went dead about 2 months after the warranty expired (go figure) and what do you know my set is now giving me problems about 6 months after the warranty expired. These are not cheap (at least monitarily) and are a respected brand (Whirpool). Funny they replaced a 20 year old set that was doing just fine.. Same thing goes for electronics, my Marantz receiver died after 3 years and that thing was very well treated (dusted weekly, in an open enclosure).

IMHO all these problems are related to Companies non stop need to outsource to developping countries to save a few bucks on every unit. That and many consumers just aren't willing to pay for brand names anymore and jump on the cheapest thing so major brands have to adjust their prices and quality as a consequence. Soon only the truly rich will be able to afford and actual "Quality" product while the rest of us will be stuck with stuff that breaks every few years

I'm like 50 something and it seems like every ten years people say the last decades products were more reliable.

And yes people tend do jump on the forums to complain when their product breaks down, I can't see someone thinking wow my HDTV is still running great I need to post how trouble free it is.

Come on now. Todays electronics in general are very reliable. Plasma and LCD tv's are relatively new to the market. As the technology ages, the reliability will get better and better. Of course there will always be those manufacturers who pump out junk. Other than electronics, I can't think of another commodity that becomes more reliable and less expensive to purchase as time goes buy. I'd guess the $29 Magnavox DVD player you can pick-up at walmart is more reliable than the DVD player that hit the market years ago.

My 42" ED Panasonic has performed flawlessly ever since I bought it about 3 and a half years ago. My brother's 50" model has been the same for over 2 years. IMO today's solid state electronics are far more reliable than the old tube or hybrid sets of 20-30 years ago. According to Consumer Reports plasma TVs, especially Panasonics, have been very reliable so far.

Whenever I see someone have problems with all their electronics I can't help but think they are doing something wrong, like not using good surge protectors, or small kids abusing the on-off button that can stress electronics if cycled too quickly, or by not installing equipment properly to allow sufficient cooling. I had a serious incident with lightning last year that knocked out my hot water heater, my ice maker, my garage door opener, and my clock radio, but all my expensive HT gear and plasma TV were unharmed thanks in part I believe to pretty good surge protection.

You can buy extended warranties for many displays for up to 5 years for around $300. I'm just sayin.

i will be very happy to hear from any one who has a 5 to 10 yr old LCD or plasma and has no dead or stuck pixel(s) or no major failures.

Now that I've had time to think about this topic some more...I've come to the conclusion that all things considered, todays expensive flatscreen tv's are no more or less reliable than past tube tv's. They really haven't been around long enough to pass the 20 year+ test but on a personal level I have 3 plasmas at 4 years, 2.5 years and 7 months old and none of them have any issues.

When I took the time to think about my personal history...I remember as a kid the huge (but only 25" screen) RCA console tv we had in the livingroom stopped working and required the local "tv guy" to make a housecall and get it back up and running every 3-4 years or so. A small Magnavox 13" in the gameroom conked out and had to be repaired only about 4 years after we got it. Moving on to myself getting out of college and buying my first tv which was a Magnavox 20" that lasted 4 years until the tube blew (repaired and sold soon after) and then when I landed my first real job a Sony 25" that lasted 6 years until I sold it to a buddy and it conked out on him after about 3 years for a total of 9 years. My next tv was a Sony 27" that lasted about 5 years until I sold it bought my first plasma (lost track of it thereafter) but during that time my girlfriend had a brand new Samsung 20" crt bite the dust in less than a year.

Taking all this into account...the only conclusion I can make is that todays fancy flat panels aren't any more reliable..but no less than yesterdays crt's. Of course there is always the anomaly..and I have an uncle that has a tiny Hitachi tv from the early 70's (10"-13"??) that is still working and providing a good picture to this day.;)

I think its just that AVS members dont wait long enough for their sets to go bad before replacing :)

Well aint that the truth! Lets review my personal flat-panel TV adventures:

Feb 2006 - Bought 32" Sharp LCD for WAY too much money. It was(and still is) a good TV but it was too small.

Dec 2006 - Bought 42" Panny plasma. Great TV and good size....BUT.... I started to read about Pioneers and started to get more into picture quality than ever before.

January 2008 - Sold Panny to co-worker and Bought a Pioneer 5080. Loving this TV and for now it seems to be the "one".

So, 3 TVs inside of two years with almost $6,000 dollars spent. The funny thing is that I paid MORE for the 32" Sharp than I did for EITHER of the larger plasmas. CRAZY! :eek:

SO the point is they are still holding up :)

I think its just that AVS members dont wait long enough for their sets to go bad before replacing :)
+1

guess I am just the unlucky one . Love the picture of my Pio 4270 and had it 13 months AND IT WOULDN'T TURN ON .They came out and replaced the board and it was fixed 5 days after it stopped working so no complaints. Now there is this thin black line :( across the entire screen :(. No abuse here just bad luck ?

guess I am just the unlucky one . Love the picture of my Pio 4270 and had it 13 months AND IT WOULDN'T TURN ON .They came out and replaced the board and it was fixed 5 days after it stopped working so no complaints. Now there is this thin black line :( across the entire screen :(. No abuse here just bad luck ?

Yes it happens but not often :(

Come on now. Todays electronics in general are very reliable. Plasma and LCD tv's are relatively new to the market. As the technology ages, the reliability will get better and better. Of course there will always be those manufacturers who pump out junk. Other than electronics, I can't think of another commodity that becomes more reliable and less expensive to purchase as time goes buy. I'd guess the $29 Magnavox DVD player you can pick-up at walmart is more reliable than the DVD player that hit the market years ago.

I completely disagree with this statement. I bought the first HIFI VHS Player and lasted like 15 years (it cost like $1000.00). While as time went I could see friends replacing their VHS player with a cheaper and cheaper one that would last less and less over the years.

Some stuff does last. But your example of a $29.00 DVD player I think is wrong. I'll bet an older $200-$300.00 DVD player will last MUCH longer.

I do see an awful lot of Panasonic Plasma board failures. Not sure if it accounts for the volume sold or not.

I mean older tvs lasted along time. Now it seem you can get a tv to last past 2 or 3yrs...Why seems like the plasma it doesnt matter who makes there is problems with them. Is there any flat panel out there that has no problems...just asking...I have a Panasonic CT-36HL42 (http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/support/Televisions/Tau-Series-PureFlat-TVs/model.CT-36HL42) CRT HD ready TV, assembled in Mexico (http://businesssob.blogspot.com/2007/11/3-tequila-lunch-is-dying-in-mexico.html), that lasted for about 5 years; so I'm not sure if it is the display technology or the PDP makers current profit objectives that is responsible for their display’s short-lived serviceability.

I'm not personally familiar with the longevity of plasma TVs. However, there is technically nothing to wear out in an LCD other than the backlight and that can be replaced. I know many plasma owners though and a few that are 5years in. Still going strong. I actually have an Industrial CRT. It's a Mitsubishi 37" with every kind of connection known to man. I got it military surplus style. I have used it for 8 years and god knows how long it was in use by the military before I got it. The picture started shrinking about a year ago and now it only turns on when it wants too. YMMV

not sure about any one's profit motives....

But the basic facts about the flat panels, lcd or plasma, are that they are pushing the envelope of new integration/manufacturing technology, some of it is very new, and they are complex. The fact that a 768p display panel has almost 1 million pixels (= 3 million individual elements of plasma capsules or transistors) and most of the times they all work is amazing. The flip side, each can fail, so there are that many opportunities for failures, considering a dead/stuck pixel a failure.


I have a Panasonic CT-36HL42 (http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/support/Televisions/Tau-Series-PureFlat-TVs/model.CT-36HL42) CRT HD ready TV, assembled in Mexico (http://businesssob.blogspot.com/2007/11/3-tequila-lunch-is-dying-in-mexico.html), that lasted for about 5 years; so I'm not sure if it is the display technology or the PDP makers current profit objectives that is responsible for their display’s short-lived serviceability.

Every time some one says "They don't make things like they used to" I say thank god.

If my middle aged memory is correct, when I read tv ratings in Consumer Reports the smaller models had fewer problems than larger of the same brand.
Back in the crt days 12"-19" were small, 21"-26" medium, 30"-36" large.
I even remember a family friend who had a 10' black and white and used a magnifying plate of glass on a stand to make the picture appear larger.

We are going to such larger, higher tech sets with picture quality many miles ahead of just a few years ago, there may be a bit more of a chance of a problem.

I did just have a 14 year old 27"Panasonic flat screen crt die three weeks ago giving a great image to the end.
It cost about the same as a new 50" 768 plasma costs now adjusted for inflation. I'm happy for the service and picture it gave me.
I've been in friends homes that are happy they have a working 25 year old set they think looks great but the picture quality is lacking

I have spoken to service techs and friends that see a lot of burned out power supplies and appliance motors and am wondering if a lot of issues are from our power grid. I'm in Ohio where the grid went down a few years ago
and sent other areas downline without power.

I started using APC UPS units on my tv's and they trip on more than I thought they would, sometimes for only a second . In the past when we lost power, we unplugged till power came back on for safety. I've heard these very short length losses of power can do damage.
Any electrical experts out there with an opinion?

pulses per minute:confused:

76PPM ... yeah i know it should have been 78 beats ..... but ... PPM ......parts per million ????

It seems apparent -- to me, at least -- that these new technology sets haven't been around long enough to have "matured" into the reliability of CRT sets that benefitted from longer manufacturing learning curves.

25" Quasar TV, bought in '73, was still working up until last year when the contacts on the tuner section's 4-gang rotary switch just got too worn out. Phosphors were getting tired too by that point. That set spent about ten years outside on the covered porch, working fine.

40" Mitsubishi RPTV, bought in '86. Quit working in '02 -- might have been a simple power supply component, but the picture was getting a little dim by then anyway.

55" Toshiba RPTV, bought in '96. Still working, although the power supply balloons the picture briefly on occasion.

55" Toshiba HD RPTV, bought in '01. Still working fine. Probably could use a little internal cleaning by now to clear up the somewhat cloudy contrast in bright scenes.

I'd say my TVs have been more reliable than what I'm reading about plasmas here. If you want to excuse the lower reliability of current displays by citing increased "complexity" -- well, we crossed that bridge a long time ago when ED started running application notes like "Microprocessor Replaces Dial Cord in Radio Tuner Assemby."

Sony 24" GDM-FW900 PC CRT - 6.5 years old and still looks superb, im typing this on it now.

Sony 21" G520P PC CRT - 4 years old, Still works excellent.

Sony 34" 34XBR960 CRT HDTV - 2 years old, Amazing picture, no problems.

Sony 27" Standard def CRT (bubble screen) - 8 years old still working fine.

Sony 32" 32HS510 CRT HDTV - 3 years old, stopped working a few months ago.. right after its extended warranty had passed. Beautiful picture on this one as well, a good friend of mine is considering having it repaired so he can use it for video games. Ill sell it to him cheap.

Pioneer 5080HD Plasma - 3 months old, No problems ,beautiful display and I hope it lasts a long time :)

I still have my almost 5 year old Samsung 55" HD RPTV & the only problem it has is that it doesn't have HDMI. If it weren't for that "minor" setback, I would probably hold onto it for another year or 2.

Considering its age, HD, HD-DVD & BR look pretty darn good.

smith,

Hold on to that Samsung for another year or two. Resist the urge to Upgrade Now. Fight it. Overlook that missing HDMI, take the back off your set and give the optics a good cleaning.

If we can believe all of the propoganda on the Plasma Forum here, there will be a noticeable (as opposed to the present Pioneer vs. Panasonic hairsplitting) difference when the new fab plants go online next year. Don't run to catch that Kuro bus -- there will be another (much better, they tell us) one coming by next year.

smith,

Hold on to that Samsung for another year or two. Resist the urge to Upgrade Now. Fight it. Overlook that missing HDMI, take the back off your set and give the optics a good cleaning.

If we can believe all of the propoganda on the Plasma Forum here, there will be a noticeable (as opposed to the present Pioneer vs. Panasonic hairsplitting) difference when the new fab plants go online next year. Don't run to catch that Kuro bus -- there will be another (much better, they tell us) one coming by next year.

There is always something better coming if you just wait..... By the time you get that new Kuro in two years OLED will be ready to take off.... if you just wait a little longer!

There is always something better coming if you just wait..... By the time you get that new Kuro in two years OLED will be ready to take off.... if you just wait a little longer!

Yes, If you want or need a new HDTV just buy it now, every year I read the same thing... the next big improvement will be next year. Look at it this way if you buy now you will be in the time frame for an upgrade when the new technology (such as OLED) hits and has a chance to mature 2-3 years.

There is always something better coming if you just wait..... By the time you get that new Kuro in two years OLED will be ready to take off.... if you just wait a little longer!

.............lasers will be here...then the flex screens.....

As much as we don't like it, Laser is the future. I have seen the Mitsubishi laser in person. I tell you, the best looking picture I have seen, hands down. OLED will be the only thing that can compete. Add in the factor that laser diodes don't really burn out, and you have a very compelling reason for me to buy a new TV. LCD tech will always be the second monkey, for numerous reasons. Currently, the top tier manufacturers of LCD's are forcing the performance numbers(Dynamic contrast ratio?). Also never forget that OLED has planned degradation built in. They see money here. Thats why they are pushing so hard. Hmm, maybe we can get people to buy a TV every 3 years....Bull Sh!t. OLED will never make it to market. Mark my words! I enjoy being right just as much as the next guy. However, I have seen both, and make no mistake, OLED is a giant shill. The market no longer revolves around what works the best. Now, it's about what you can fool the customer into buying.;) I'm a laser man all the way!

I have plenty examples of old CRTs dying out after 4-5 years. Especially rear projection. I went through a couple of Sony rear projection TVs in the mid 90. Before that my Curtis Mathis lasted about 5 years, then started fading out. My Sony 27" console before that, that I saved to buy to play Nintendo on, did the same. Don't get me started on CRT monitors.

On the other hand, I have a newer Toshiba rear projection that has had zero problems for 7 years now, and an Olevia 37" LCD that has had 0 problems in 2 years. My dad and I are also comparing our receivers(my modern receivers vs his older ones) and how he had problems losing a channel all the time, while the Sony with Dolby Digital I gave him works flawlessly after 10 years now, and was even exposed to a very severe thunderstorm where it was soaked in rain for about 3 hours. On the other hand I bought what was considered a high end(of poor college students) bookshelf system that simply stopped working after 3 years.

Its really a mixed bag. I think if you're not getting reliability these days, its because companies have figured out they can sell more if something breaks down.

They've been talking about the replacements for LCD/Plasma forvever. I remember when I bought my 34" Panasonic HD CRT in 2005 to tide me over until SED or OLED came out, they were talking about a late 2006 to early 2007 release for those technologies back then. Here we are half way 2008 and the best we have is Sony's tiny little OLED screen. If I wanted a display now I'd go and buy one because you might be waiting a little longer than you think for the next big thing.. That and who knows what they might cost, a 42 OLED might cost upwards of $5000 for all we know the first year they come out.

Look at it this way if you buy now you will be in the time frame for an upgrade when the new technology (such as OLED) hits and has a chance to mature 2-3 years.Which is why (even after my last post) I'll probably buy a plasma later this year. Heck, they're down near $1K now. Before I hook it up, I think I'll stop by my buddy's house and stick it next to his four-year-old Pioneer that he paid $7K for. I'll bet they'll look pretty much the same.

smith,

Hold on to that Samsung for another year or two. Resist the urge to Upgrade Now. Fight it. Overlook that missing HDMI, take the back off your set and give the optics a good cleaning.

If we can believe all of the propoganda on the Plasma Forum here, there will be a noticeable (as opposed to the present Pioneer vs. Panasonic hairsplitting) difference when the new fab plants go online next year. Don't run to catch that Kuro bus -- there will be another (much better, they tell us) one coming by next year.

True, but it is wider than a hair between 11g Panny and 8g Pioneer.
I'm as interested in the laser t.v.'s as the next guy, but will have to see one for myself in a home before jumping on that train.
What is their expected release time frame?

Which is why (even after my last post) I'll probably buy a plasma later this year. Heck, they're down near $1K now. Before I hook it up, I think I'll stop by my buddy's house and stick it next to his four-year-old Pioneer that he paid $7K for. I'll bet they'll look pretty much the same.

I saw a very nice 50" 720p plasma in Walmart tonight. Subtract $99 from your 1k figure. Man.. To bad I spent my economic stimulus on bills. Stupid bills... :D

I have an old 19" Symphonic TV/VCR (CRT) that was a display unit at a retail store. I acquired it in the early 90's. It's been to multiple homes all over the United States (Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Silicon Valley, Baton Rouge, Austin). It still works. (The VHS player still works, too.)

My POS Westinghouse 32" LCD was a refurb bought a year ago. I expect it to last at least another 5 years before it goes to half brightness.

My Sharp VHS player bought in 1997 still works.

Anyone that goes through multiple displays, optical players, etc. in a short time obviously is doing something wrong. My guess would be that they have bad power, humidity problems, pest issues (mice, silverfish, etc.), poor temperature control or something else going on in the environment.

Consumer electronics to me are very reliable. Non-mission critical server computer components are another matter.

76PPM ... yeah i know it should have been 78 beats ..... but ... PPM ......parts per million ????pulse per minute maybe. bad nurse. What if they actually did that? Good thing we have computers...

Are flat panals holding up as compared to the CRT's, well that answer is no. BUT you have to remember we are the guinea pig generation. Just as your Great Grandfather and your Grandfather were the guinea pigs when TV's first came out. At first they had their host of problems but they eventually got it right. And your Grandfather and your father were the guinea pigs when color TV's first came. They had their problems big time. Does anyone remember the color bleeding and the meshed colors? It was horrible for awhile. But they perfected that too.

So they'll perfect these as well and are rapidly doing so. Burn in for the most part is a thing of the past plasma's, LCD's are rapidly getting rid of motion blur etc. It's just the next phase in technology. It'll be perfected.

So basically if you haven't bought a flat panal yet and are perfectly happy with your tv's size and HD is not that big of a deal to you then your best option is actually just wait it out. All these host of problems that the flat panals are experiencing will all be worked out in the next couple of years.
So by the time you are ready to buy one, SD will look great on the newer models, they'll all have the fast response time that we see with CRT's, Black levels on the LCD will have caught up to plasma's and CRT's etc.

This new technology is great is just very young, in terms of mass production and of TV's of all different sizes but it will be perfected.

yes, but it is an expensive experiment..i like the technology and the pq and have shelled out several Gs for the two panels...

on the flip side, some body (generation) has to be the guinea pig; it is our turn.


Are flat panals holding up as compared to the CRT's, well that answer is no. BUT you have to remember we are the guinea pig generation. Just as your Great Grandfather and your Grandfather were the guinea pigs when TV's first came out. At first they had their host of problems but they eventually got it right. And your Grandfather and your father were the guinea pigs when color TV's first came. They had their problems big time. Does anyone remember the color bleeding and the meshed colors? It was horrible for awhile. But they perfected that too.

So they'll perfect these as well and are rapidly doing so. Burn in for the most part is a thing of the past plasma's, LCD's are rapidly getting rid of motion blur etc. It's just the next phase in technology. It'll be perfected.

So basically if you haven't bought a flat panal yet and are perfectly happy with your tv's size and HD is not that big of a deal to you then your best option is actually just wait it out. All these host of problems that the flat panals are experiencing will all be worked out in the next couple of years.
So by the time you are ready to buy one, SD will look great on the newer models, they'll all have the fast response time that we see with CRT's, Black levels on the LCD will have caught up to plasma's and CRT's etc.

This new technology is great is just very young, in terms of mass production and of TV's of all different sizes but it will be perfected.

...and sometimes the price is very high...just happened to see this...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1027846

yes, but it is an expensive experiment..

Are flat panals holding up as compared to the CRT's, well that answer is no. BUT you have to remember we are the guinea pig generation. Just as your Great Grandfather and your Grandfather were the guinea pigs when TV's first came out. At first they had their host of problems but they eventually got it right. And your Grandfather and your father were the guinea pigs when color TV's first came. They had their problems big time. Does anyone remember the color bleeding and the meshed colors? It was horrible for awhile. But they perfected that too.

So they'll perfect these as well and are rapidly doing so. Burn in for the most part is a thing of the past plasma's, LCD's are rapidly getting rid of motion blur etc. It's just the next phase in technology. It'll be perfected.

So basically if you haven't bought a flat panal yet and are perfectly happy with your tv's size and HD is not that big of a deal to you then your best option is actually just wait it out. All these host of problems that the flat panals are experiencing will all be worked out in the next couple of years.
So by the time you are ready to buy one, SD will look great on the newer models, they'll all have the fast response time that we see with CRT's, Black levels on the LCD will have caught up to plasma's and CRT's etc.

This new technology is great is just very young, in terms of mass production and of TV's of all different sizes but it will be perfected.

As a dealer and a servicer, I have to disagree. CRTs have lots more failures, IME than either PDP or LCD. You have cheap crap in all technologies that have lots of failures, like the LG made PDPs that so many vendors have sold, but overall, there is not much comparison, IME. A different matter is how repairable they are. Most newer products are more expensive to repair, if parts are available at all, because the only support is at the circuit board level, not component level. Panel failures are like CRTs in that they are not practical to replace if not under warranty.

The more stuff you cram into a box, the greater the rate of failure....

I have a 9" Zenith, still running strong after 20+ years.
I have a 5 year old PC, amazingly still running. A 5 year old computer is normally decrepit, and you should not expect anything that has a hard disk in it to run 5 years. I rent the Scientific Atlanta cable box with DVR -- no point in asking for trouble.

My 3 year old LG CRT HDTV has never had a problem, other than my not liking the picture too much. I will probably have this for many years to come, because at 150 lbs. it is too heavy to get rid of.

My 2005 Mazda 3 has required 2 warranty repairs

My one month old Onkyo 875 AVR has never even spent an entire night at my place, and is currently in the shop awaiting parts.

I have a 5 year old PC, amazingly still running. A 5 year old computer is normally decrepit,...Really? I have three puters at least 5 years old. None of them "broke," although... ...you should not expect anything that has a hard disk in it to run 5 years. OK, OK -- replace the friggin' hard drive already. They're like tires on a car. Replace the OS too -- that's like an oil change. Not too difficult.

Now, as for running all of the new bloatware on that old machine, well... don't blame "reliability" for that.

Good luck replacing anything other than a few PCBs in the new AV gear.

Ithink the question would be more like " Will you still want your present flat panel in 20 years" .....

I mean older tvs lasted along time. Now it seem you can get a tv to last past 2 or 3yrs...Why seems like the plasma it doesnt matter who makes there is problems with them. Is there any flat panel out there that has no problems...just asking...

Nope!! You're going have to wait for the new technologies like OLED.

The display technology world missed its chance at perfection when SED did not make it to the market.:(

well that depends the evolution of the technology. the reason we had the CRTs for so long is cause we kept getting the same NTSC video broadcast for decades until the HDTV came along. if 10 yrs from now, the broadcasters are still broadcasting only 720p/1080i, for me the changing the panel will not add any value...though with all the problems you read about, i don't think my PIOs will last that long....if nothing else happens, many pixels will be dead or stuck

Ithink the question would be more like " Will you still want your present flat panel in 20 years" .....

There is almost always value in improving the display. The ones we have are far from perfect. CRTs would still have gone away in favor of other technologies if we did not have HD. It would have taken longer, but it was inevitable.

There is almost always value in improving the display. The ones we have are far from perfect. CRTs would still have gone away in favor of other technologies if we did not have HD. It would have taken longer, but it was inevitable.


I totally agree. Consumer Reports survey of thousands of owners show that in the first 3 or 4 years of use that flat panel sets are every bit as reliable as any brand of CRT direct view set, and more reliable than any type of rear projection set including CRT types. We DON'T know yet however that our flat panels will still be comparable in reliablity to tube sets at age 10 or so. But it is utter nonsense at this point in time to declare that flat panels are inferior in reliablity to CRT type sets given the available data.

I still do a lot more service on CRTs than on any other technology. The failures in PDPs and LCDs seem to be concentrated on a few vendors products. When you have a few that fail a lot and they are the OEM for lots of cheap brands that sell a lot of product, you hear a lot about it. The better quality products seem to be holding up quite well, however. We have been selling the various technologies for years and have had very good results with the non-CRT displays.

I still do a lot more service on CRTs than on any other technology. The failures in PDPs and LCDs seem to be concentrated on a few vendors products. When you have a few that fail a lot and they are the OEM for lots of cheap brands that sell a lot of product, you hear a lot about it. The better quality products seem to be holding up quite well, however. We have been selling the various technologies for years and have had very good results with the non-CRT displays.

The forever old "you get what you pay for"

The forever old "you get what you pay for"

Well, I have been around the industry long enough to know that you get what you pay for if you do your homework and you are lucky. Paying more is not always the better route, just like paying less is often not the best value.

I still do a lot more service on CRTs than on any other technology.CRTs have a much larger installed base than flat panels, don't you think?

How many ten-year-old plasmas have you seen lately?

good question....or even 5 year old? also if some one has data like repairs per 1000 units sold will be better view of how they are holding up

a while back i posted a question: does any one out there have a 5+ yr old plasma that is working please post....no replies.

having said that, i am not implying that one should wait on the sidelines. i am not-- i am a "new technology" enthusiast and love plasmas - have two of them. but i am concerned that they will not last 5+ years and this will be an expensive encounter with new technology.


CRTs have a much larger installed base than flat panels, don't you think?

How many ten-year-old plasmas have you seen lately?

I probably shouldn't post this (Murphy's Law) but my Zenith 42" ED plaz is still going strong after nearly 3 years and 11.5K hours. Will enjoy the heck out of it as long as possible and then move to the biggest, baddest tech set out there for likely the same investment. With any luck I will have skipped the great LCD catch-up to Plaz saga altogether (think motion blur will ever disappear in LCD? ::p)

And to top it all off (now this is really tempting fate!) I didn't go for the extended warranty. :eek: Also do my own calibrations ... this thing just keeps ticking and looks darn good.

I think flat panels are like anything else in regards to quality and longevity. Expensive, middlin' or downright cheap ... it's almost always a crapshoot anyway. If nothing pops in the first year, you can 'usually' rely on it for a long while (exceptions duly noted).

CRTs have a much larger installed base than flat panels, don't you think?

How many ten-year-old plasmas have you seen lately?

True, but we have many in the field that we installed 5-6 years ago, and we rarely have any service on them at all compared to the CRTs we sold in the same time period. I can only speak to my experience and what other techs and dealers relay to me, but CRTs seem to be higher in service needs than newer technologies, overall. Again, there are high failure models in any technology.

My 37" LG LCD died last month. Board is dead and they can replace it for the price of a new one so now I am having to shop again. This gets expensive. Meanwhile my old CRT won't die.

lcaillo, how are plasmas holding up, PQ wise, over the long haul?

It depends on how they are used. Those that are run at OOB settings are aging notably more than those that are calibrated properly. I have one that is five years old and it shows little aging at all. Many run wide open and carelessly have burn-in and obvious dimming. IMO, when properly adjusted, they will likely last longer than CRTs with less loss of output.

IMHO pratically everything made today is unrealiable junk compared to what it was 15-20 years ago. My friend's new washer and dryer set went dead about 2 months after the warranty expired (go figure) and what do you know my set is now giving me problems about 6 months after the warranty expired. These are not cheap (at least monitarily) and are a respected brand (Whirpool). Funny they replaced a 20 year old set that was doing just fine.. Same thing goes for electronics, my Marantz receiver died after 3 years and that thing was very well treated (dusted weekly, in an open enclosure).

IMHO all these problems are related to Companies non stop need to outsource to developping countries to save a few bucks on every unit. That and many consumers just aren't willing to pay for brand names anymore and jump on the cheapest thing so major brands have to adjust their prices and quality as a consequence. Soon only the truly rich will be able to afford and actual "Quality" product while the rest of us will be stuck with stuff that breaks every few years


Don't forget Microsoft's steller xbox 360. Which mine died (red rings of death)friday night. What do you know on the back it says "made in China". When my parents had electronics I never worried about them breaking. Now that I have my own house. Every piece of electronics that I turn on I wonder if it's going to be it's last time. Funny thing is all my equipment cost three to four times as much.

The idea that everything is junk these days is simply faulty analysis based on limited information and nostalgia.

People own much more of more complicated devices than ever before by quite a margin. Take the Marantz receiver, for instance. There are many times as many AVRs out there now than there were audio receivers in the "glory days" of companies like Marantz. They fail at a much lower rate, however. Having a reciever in the shop for repair is a relatively rare occurence these days compared to 20 years ago. Some are crap, and yes, the need to reduce cost does create problems, but that is driven by whom? YOU, the customer, who wants more for his money. Look at what you get in electronics now compared to the "good old days" when they made things "right."