I'd like to play my "digital music" with my home-theatre.
I have proac studio 140 with arcam p1000 and nad t175. I'd like to use lossless format to have the best audio quality possible.
I have appletv but i know it doesn't support flac files....only apple lossless.
For audio quality, appletv is a good solution or is it better the sonos system or the new sqeezbox duet?

tks

I'd like to play my "digital music" with my home-theatre.
I have proac studio 140 with arcam p1000 and nad t175. I'd like to use lossless format to have the best audio quality possible.
I have appletv but i know it doesn't support flac files....only apple lossless.
For audio quality, appletv is a good solution or is it better the sonos system or the new sqeezbox duet?

tks

Apple TV - Do not even consider it for this kind of task. It is unconvenient as it lacks a display. It also has numerous feature/usage restrictions, making it overall very unconvenient. Also it will not accept a wide variety of formats. And it was not designed with Audio playback as priority. Actually I dare to go even as far as saying that it is crap.. Seriously the only thing it is good for is if you want to buy video content from apple.

Sonos - Are neat looking and easy to setup. Though has slightly less format support than the Squezeboxes (for example does not accept WMA lossless). Also generally people consider the Sonos to have slightly worse audio quality than the Squeezeboxes. Anyway you would propably not be dissapointed with one of these.

But with that said, the Sonos is not my personal favourite. I recommend any of the SlimDevices, Squeezeboxes Duet/Classic and Transporter. They are the most versatile, accepts virtually any format. Rock stable hardware that never hangs or drops connections. Are known for having the best sound quality. The server software is avaible for pretty much any OS, including Linux/Mac/Windows, even NAS devices etc..

Also there is a wealthy Squeezebox community, and there are lots of third party applications etc avaible for it. Also if you are a user of iTunes you will love the Squeezebox.. Because Slimserver integrates very nicely with iTunes, making scanning libraries a matter of mere seconds.

The SlimDevices may appear a bit intimitating, because of their "hardcore" approach of the products. So you would easily think they are a pain to setup. But seriously even the software is brilliantly designed, there are literally hundreds of settings, but it still is a breeze to setup.

(And I might add that I like the design of the SlimDevices better, avaible in nice glossy black and have goldplated connectors) :D

I really can not comment on the devices that visuatrax discussed. But I did recently get an AppleTv and I think for the money it is a great device. I can listen to my iTunes library that has been ripped in Apple Lossless. I can also stream movies from computer. Which I think gives me the best of both worlds and it was fairly easy to set up. And yes you can buy movies from Apple, I tried one and it worked flawlessly, however it is not something I will usually do.

Apple TV - Do not even consider it for this kind of task. It is unconvenient as it lacks a display. It also has numerous feature/usage restrictions, making it overall very unconvenient. Also it will not accept a wide variety of formats. And it was not designed with Audio playback as priority. Actually I dare to go even as far as saying that it is crap.. Seriously the only thing it is good for is if you want to buy video content from apple.
I would tend to agree with this...

Sonos - Are neat looking and easy to setup. Though has slightly less format support than the Squezeboxes (for example does not accept WMA lossless). Also generally people consider the Sonos to have slightly worse audio quality than the Squeezeboxes. Anyway you would propably not be dissapointed with one of these.

But with that said, the Sonos is not my personal favourite. I recommend any of the SlimDevices, Squeezeboxes Duet/Classic and Transporter. They are the most versatile, accepts virtually any format. Rock stable hardware that never hangs or drops connections. Are known for having the best sound quality. The server software is avaible for pretty much any OS, including Linux/Mac/Windows, even NAS devices etc..

Also there is a wealthy Squeezebox community, and there are lots of third party applications etc avaible for it. Also if you are a user of iTunes you will love the Squeezebox.. Because Slimserver integrates very nicely with iTunes, making scanning libraries a matter of mere seconds.

The SlimDevices may appear a bit intimitating, because of their "hardcore" approach of the products. So you would easily think they are a pain to setup. But seriously even the software is brilliantly designed, there are literally hundreds of settings, but it still is a breeze to setup.
actually, Most people consider the Sonos to sound better... but the reality is, if one sounds better to you then the other, it probably has more to do with you then the boxes... sound wise, assuming you are going digital out into your AVR, they will be identical... one plus to the Sonos line is the ZP-100, a player with its own decent amps built in... just add speakers and your are done... not the best solution for your Main Zone, but great for a patio/deck/kitchen/bedroom/bathroom/garage/basement/etc...
as for Rock stable hardware, um, have you seen any of the end user reports of the Duet? seems there is some issues with dropped connections... not horrible, and knowing Logitech, it will be fixed... but not what I would currently call rock stable...yet...
also, sonos doesn't need a PC running 24/7 and it doesn't need special software loaded onto a nas...

(And I might add that I like the design of the SlimDevices better, avaible in nice glossy black and have goldplated connectors) :D
thats great if you want to look at them... I prefer to listen to mine...

here is a very nice Sonos vs Duet thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1006811) , it occasionally goes off on a tangent here and there, but over all it tends to cover everything...
there are a lot of pluses and minuses to both systems...

I would tend to agree with this...

Atleast we agree about something :D. Well lets just say that both the Logitech and Sonos devices are stellar. It is mostly a matter of taste what you prefer. I prefer the VFD equipped Squeezebox and Transporter, this because I think nothing beats a good old fashioned remote :).

You know especially considering how often i accidently drop them, a Sonos and Duet would be smashed to pieces in no time ;)

At least we agree about something :D.
it happens:)
Well lets just say that both the Logitech and Sonos devices are stellar. It is mostly a matter of taste what you prefer.
I agree with this too...

I prefer the VFD equipped Squeezebox and Transporter, this because I think nothing beats a good old fashioned remote :).
the Transporter is a very nice bit of kit for looking at... it would fit right in with a fancy tube preamp/etc...
anyway, my personal preference is for a display on the remote, as I am not always in the same room as the Box... and while I don't think the sonos remote is drop proof, it is Beer resistant, which for me is far more important... the duet remote looks lighter though, so it may be somewhat more drop resistant?...

You know especially considering how often i accidently drop them, a Sonos and Duet would be smashed to pieces in no time ;)
you really need to work on your manual dexterity:p

Apple TV - Do not even consider it for this kind of task. It is unconvenient as it lacks a display. It also has numerous feature/usage restrictions, making it overall very unconvenient. Also it will not accept a wide variety of formats. And it was not designed with Audio playback as priority. Actually I dare to go even as far as saying that it is crap.. Seriously the only thing it is good for is if you want to buy video content from apple.

Actually, for feeding music to a single zone the Apple TV is one of the best products out there as long as one has their music encoded in a format it accepts and has a display to use. The menu navigation is very intuitive and with an outboard DAC the audio quality is very good. For you to refer to it as crap must mean that you either have a problem with Apple, or you haven't used one. FYI, Paul McGowan of PS Audio raves about his:

The killer piece
But the killer piece is the Apple TV™ (ATV). No, we haven't watched TV on it but we are using it as a complete standalone music server that is drop dead wonderful and you don't need a computer or an Airport Express to run the thing!

This piece may be the bargain of the century. The entry level ATV, with its built in 40gb hard drive, is just $229 and even the biggest ATV, which has a 160gb hard drive, is only $339 ready to go. Consider that for the same price as a comparable iPod, you get everything you need including a digital output!

The ATV has wireless built in, is easy to hook up and connects to your DAC through a standard TOSLINK.

So compared to an iPod, Squeezebox or Sonos, this thing rocks! In my opinion, it's the best Apple product going. Remember, iPods have no digital output, the more expensive ones are indeed wireless (but can't connect to your music library), their little video screen interface is nice but nothing like the ATV and they require an external dock to connect to your system - and then it is only analog through a mediocre DAC.

The ATV is, in reality, a full blown MAC computer (without any computer stuff attached) running a scaled down version of OS10.

Now, it still has a jittered output, it's still limited to red book CD but the good news is the ATV is not limited by hardware to red book standards (as the iPods, Slim Devices and Sonos appear to be) and technically it may be possible to output higher bit and sample rates if Apple decides to allow it with a software upgrade.

Connect this bad boy's digital output to a PS Digital Lens and you get 24 bit 192kHz performance that is stunning into a good DAC.

Navigation is easy. Here at PS we simply bought a 17 inch computer monitor with a DVI input for $250, got an HDMI to DVI cable and bingo, you are navigating in full color on a big wide screen. And oh how cool the navigation system on this thing is. It's a real joy to use. It blows away anything I've yet played with on any system. The ATV even comes with a remote control included.

How do you use it? It couldn't be easier. Just make sure you have iTunes installed on your computer (MAC or PC) and the ATV pops up in the menu just like an iPod does. Click 'share' and your entire library is streamed over to the ATV's internal hard drive. Or, if you prefer, leave your computer on and you can access both libraries. My library is under 100gb so I just transferred over to the ATV, shut off the computer and I am in musical heaven with uncompressed bliss.

I also love Sonos, but IMO it makes more sense for distributed audio applications.

encoded in a format it accepts and has a display to use.

Well that pretty much renders it useless for most people. The Apple TV is not even cheap, so why choose a product with such limited audio capabilities rather than getting a Sonos or Squeezebox. I don't know anyone who uses an Apple TV in a hifi kind of setup.

Also for being a media streamer the product is seriously handicapped for having such poor video compatibility. You can get one of the dirt cheap Popcorn Hour boxes, for just pure performance and it virtually accepts anything.

AppleTV has a nice looking menu navigation, but that is all the credit I will give it.

I'm in no way a Apple hater, I have both a 8GB Nano and 160GB Classic, and use iTunes.. But those are good products, the AppleTV on the other hand just does a mediocre job at everything. I use a combo iof Squeezebox Classic and a Popcorn Hour, it was not overly expensive and those two combined can handle pretty much any Audio and Video format.

Well that pretty much renders it useless for most people. The Apple TV is not even cheap, so why choose a product with such limited audio capabilities rather than getting a Sonos or Squeezebox. I don't know anyone who uses an Apple TV in a hifi kind of setup.

Also for being a media streamer the product is seriously handicapped for having such poor video compatibility. You can get one of the dirt cheap Popcorn Hour boxes, for just pure performance and it virtually accepts anything.

AppleTV has a nice looking menu navigation, but that is all the credit I will give it.

I'm in no way a Apple hater, I have both a 8GB Nano and 160GB Classic, and use iTunes.. But those are good products, the AppleTV on the other hand just does a mediocre job at everything. I use a combo iof Squeezebox Classic and a Popcorn Hour, it was not overly expensive and those two combined can handle pretty much any Audio and Video format.

Audio formats supported
AAC (16 to 320 Kbps); protected AAC (from iTunes Store); MP3 (16 to 320 Kbps); MP3 VBR; Apple Lossless; AIFF; WAV; Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound pass-through

What other formats does one need besides maybe FLAC? $229 is expensive? In the audiophile world $229 is basically free.

Poor video compatibility? It supports HDMI and component video - what else is really necessary?

Squeezebox is great, but the interface is not as good. To do Sonos one needs a controller ($299), and a ZP80 ($349). Factor in the price of a small display for the Apple and it is basically a wash between the two.

What other formats does one need besides maybe FLAC? $229 is expensive? In the audiophile world $229 is basically free.

Poor video compatibility? It supports HDMI and component video - what else is really necessary?

Squeezebox is great, but the interface is not as good. To do Sonos one needs a controller ($299), and a ZP80 ($349). Factor in the price of a small display for the Apple and it is basically a wash between the two.


The interface is not as good in a Squeezebox? If you are talking about the VFD or Duet display. Well I don't agree, but I guess it is a matter of taste. In my opinion it is efficient and fast, and can be customized and configured in numerous ways. The AppleTV's interface is neat looking and simple for sure, but it lacks features.


Also I was not referring to video outputs, but video codecs and containers, the popcorn hour accepts these

Video containers:
MPEG1/2/4 Elementary (M1V, M2V, M4V)
MPEG1/2 PS (M2P, MPG)
MPEG2 Transport Stream (TS, TP, TRP, M2T, M2TS, MTS)
VOB
AVI, ASF, WMV
Matroska (MKV)
MOV (H.264), MP4, RMP4

Video codecs:
XVID SD/HD
MPEG-1
MPEG-2
MP@HL
MPEG-4.2
ASP@L5, 720p, 1-point GMC
WMV9
MP@HL
H.264
BP@L3
MP@L4.0
HP@L4.0
HP@L4.1
VC-1
MP@HL
AP@L3

Audio containers:
AAC, M4A
MPEG audio (MP1, MP2, MP3, MPA)
WAV
WMA
Audio codecs:
WMA, WMA Pro
AAC
MP1, MP2, MP3
LPCM
Audio pass through : DTS, AC3
Photo formats : JPEG, BMP, PNG, GIF
Other formats: ISO, IFO
Subtitle formats : SRT, SMI, SUB, SSA

.. I know last time I checked the Apple TV does not even come close to matching these capabilities. $229 for an Apple TV is not maybe expensive, but it is a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none kind of device. People serious about video, would go for a popcorn hour kind of device. The ones interested in music would go for a dedicated device like a Squeezebox or Sonos.

Popcorn Hour A-100 $179
Squeezebox Classic $299
= $478

Sure the AppleTV sounds like a bargain for $229 if it actually could replace both of those devices. But it is basically locked in for usage with Apple provided or approved media. The usage restrictions just frustrate people.

I have an appletv

It automatically syncs to my itunes library and outputs mp3's, aac's, and applelossless files perfectly over optical and hdmi.

If you're like me and love itunes for your music management, think you'd enjoy a fantastic on-screen interface, and believe apple isn't going anywhere anytime soon, its a 250 or 350 dollar no-brainer.

the video streaming with a speedy i-net connection is 7-8 out of 10 IMO. Basically it will be your isp that's the bottleneck here anyway.


If you steal a lot of movies off the i-net and want a device that can handle every video codec known to man, it is not the device for you. Seeing that most of the free world still just steals music, this shouldn't be too much of an issue for you, as apple's movie selection is becoming more comprehensive every week-as mentioned above. And other video you consume through satellite, cable, dvd and blu-ray sources are unaffected by whatever device you choose. Seems your interests are primarily focused upon music anyway though.

I'll wait back and let others explain to you the reasons why you need a machine that plays 30-40 differing video codecs now that doesn't involve viewing stolen copyrighted content.

james

oh and by the way...not that I'm "johnny appleseed" but AFAIK quicktime pretty much converts any file to an mp4 which will playback fine on the appletv, so many of the criticisms regarding its limitations are largely irrelevant.

please advise if this is incorrect

ps...the appletv also SIMULTANEOUSLY outputs over both hdmi and optical so you pump out out both if you choose...as I do.

I actually use iTunes for my music management too, SqueezeCenter is capable of reading the iTunes database..

It has nothing to do with stealing movies, people rip their DVD collections and put them on a file server for streaming purposes. This used to be impossible due to lack of storage space (if you wanted to preserve the quality), but nowadays large capacity harddrives are affordable. So we can just shove those pesky disks and cases on the attic.

You just reasoned the same way as the music industry did a few years ago, in other words being able to rip your CD's equals that you are "stealing".

Sure you can convert both video and audio formats, a time consuming process that most would want to skip. And when it comes to video converting would for certain degrade the quality too.

.. and BTW I live in Europe, here Apple has ZERO movie and TV content avaible

I actually use iTunes for my music management too, SqueezeCenter is capable of reading the iTunes database..

It has nothing to do with stealing movies, people rip their DVD collections and put them on a file server for streaming purposes. This used to be impossible due to lack of storage space (if you wanted to preserve the quality), but nowadays large capacity harddrives are affordable. So we can just shove those pesky disks and cases on the attic.

So remind me why an appletv user can't "rip" their movie collection into a .264 and have the apple tv use the flawlessly?


You just reasoned the same way as the music industry did a few years ago, in other words being able to rip your CD's equals that you are "stealing".

Well, No. I'm speaking about people who are upset with the fact that the apple tv wont't play files they steal off torrent sites. No where did I equate ripping your cd or dvd collection to stealing.

Sure you can convert both video and audio formats, a time consuming process that most would want to skip. And when it comes to video converting would for certain degrade the quality too.

I've converted about a half dozen files thus far and the "difference" is indiscernable to me. Mighty quick too, although I had to go out of my way to find the files, because I don't steal copyrighted content.

.. and BTW I live in Europe, here Apple has ZERO movie and TV content avaible

Well, that really sucks.

I actually use iTunes for my music management too, SqueezeCenter is capable of reading the iTunes database..

It has nothing to do with stealing movies, people rip their DVD collections and put them on a file server for streaming purposes. This used to be impossible due to lack of storage space (if you wanted to preserve the quality), but nowadays large capacity harddrives are affordable. So we can just shove those pesky disks and cases on the attic.

You just reasoned the same way as the music industry did a few years ago, in other words being able to rip your CD's equals that you are "stealing".

Sure you can convert both video and audio formats, a time consuming process that most would want to skip. And when it comes to video converting would for certain degrade the quality too.

.. and BTW I live in Europe, here Apple has ZERO movie and TV content avaible


Ok, first of all, I NEVER stated or implied that people ripping their dvd's into any format is stealing. What I am saying is that IF you bought an appletv you could rip all of your movies into 264's that the appletv can use, and you can d-load content right from their website.

What I'm maintaining is that MOST merely want the use of other file codecs so they can play pirated files they dowload off the internet. Dress it up anyway you want, but that's the truth.

While I agree that the lack of these codecs in the a-tv is somewhat frustrating, it doesn't keep you from watching your own purchased content, so these other codecs are meaningless when it comes to watching movies, tv shows, etc that are acessed legally- other files are easily converted...I've handled a half dozen or so, and its taken little to no time at all, and I've yet to see a discernable drop in quality.

I stand by my assertion: if you PURCHASE content and not steal it, the apple tv should work for anyone.

My biggest beef with it (a-tv) is the lack of the abilitiy to add an external hdd...but I've heard that's coming in the next update.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but where are all these legitimate (LEGAL!) concerns regarding file formats?

James

My biggest beef with it (a-tv) is the lack of the abilitiy to add an external hdd...but I've heard that's coming in the next update.
James

I have apv and as u say the hd capacity it's my biggest beef with it.
I have many giga of apple lossless files (cd converted in apple lossless) so i can't read all my music by the internal hd and i hate to have the pc always on....for this i was looking for another solution, sonos or logitech.
But now u tell that in the future we will use and external hd....but just a question:
- do u think can we read and search the files (music, movies) with the actual categorization, for author, song's name, etc? or do i surf into the external hd like on a pc (for folders)

And another question....at the moment how can i solve this hd problem capability?

I have apv and as u say the hd capacity it's my biggest beef with it.
I have many giga of apple lossless files (cd converted in apple lossless) so i can't read all my music by the internal hd and i hate to have the pc always on....for this i was looking for another solution, sonos or logitech.
But now u tell that in the future we will use and external hd....but just a question:
- do u think can we read and search the files (music, movies) with the actual categorization, for author, song's name, etc? or do i surf into the external hd like on a pc (for folders)

And another question....at the moment how can i solve this hd problem capability?

Well, for your first question, I'm just not sure HOW the add-on hdd will work, but it IS an apple porduct, so I would ASSUME the addition of the hdd could be a straight-forward process (including intuitive searches).

Secondly, I'm asuming you have the 40gig version, as you'd have to have a rather substantial collection to exceed the 160gig (really 150) capacity, even in lossless.

Sadly, I'm not sure how you would currently work around that problem other than perhaps loading it up (the a-tv) to the gills and streaming the balance from oyur cpu or picking up the 160 altogether.

Perhaps someone else has an option for you?

James

Sure the AppleTV sounds like a bargain for $229 if it actually could replace both of those devices. But it is basically locked in for usage with Apple provided or approved media. The usage restrictions just frustrate people.It was designed to generate money via iTunes not to be a media player... there is a big difference.

It was designed to generate money via iTunes not to be a media player... there is a big difference.


well, that's interesting because I have NEVER purchased a single song from itunes (over 10,000 in my library) and have watched 2 movies off itunes and uploaded 3 others in the last 5 months. So, outside of the purchase of the device, they've "made" ten bucks of me (probably closer to 3 or 4 after licensing and everything else that goes into offering the media).


And, as long as we're not talking about stealing media, well of course it (appletv) exists to make apple money. You can bet that MS (don't they already with xbox Live?) and Sony (though the ps3) will come out with nearly identical "stores" and they will make "them" money too. The device never disguised itself as "just " a media streamer in the first place. The idea that you can d-load your favorite music, tv shows and movies right on your tv is a bonus to most people, not a detractor. As if Apple should be lashed for what Netflix, Blockbuster and every cable and satellite service in the universe has been doing for the last decade....renting movies!!!!?

To be quite honest, evertything being equal, if I rent a hi-def movie for $4, I could care less WHO gets paid.

What I'm saying is this: if you find fault with apples prices or selection, thats one thing...if people are upset with them because they have to "pay" 4 or 5 bucks for a movie, that's a whole different animal.

Again, please spare me the lectures of "limitation", I understand the contention...what I was asking from the beginning was: is this a "real" limitation, or does it just make it a bit more diffcult for thieves (as there is isn't an abundance of h.264 pirated material, but LOADS of divx and xvid)?

Through another thread some pointed out that there are indeed educational sites (and others) that offer video in formats that the a-tv doesn't agree with and thats unfortunate. I can say honestly that I'm not interested in those sites and have yet to encounter an issue with movies and tv shows that I've purchased.

My next question is of course how many people are actually using (or want to use) this device for much besides music, movies and tv shows? Point being, most every tv show and movie is available for play on the a-tv, so where's the LEGAL "restrictions" for MOST users?

It's an honest question.

James

Screw the legalities. To the original poster: Buy the appletv if you purchase (or plan to purchase), alot of music and video through the itunes store (end).

I don't want to have to turn on my television to listen to music and I already have alot of dvds which I'd like to incorporate into the appletv system. Which would give me a personal video jukebox, as well as music server, but I don't want to go through the long process of transcoding them to get it. Dvd (mpeg 2) is far more common in the marketplace than the formats that appletv uses, yet it isn't one that is it accepts. Most people on this site would use the appletv if they could simply and easily incorporate there dvds into the appletv system, but of course, then you could'nt have the pleasure of spending your money to buy the same content you already have, from Apple.

well, that's interesting because I have NEVER purchased a single song from itunes (over 10,000 in my library) and have watched 2 movies off itunes and uploaded 3 others in the last 5 months. My point is Apple TV is an iTunes client and as such designed to compliment their content. By design it serves no purpose outside of supporting iTunes and HD movie downloads, correct?

Just like TiVo you can purchase an Apple TV and hack the heck out of it but to my eyes Apple TV has no limitations as it serves the purpose it was designed for. More than likely just like TiVo and the PS3 it's a loss leader (sold below cost) so they would prefer you didn't purchase it if you won't be using iTunes. Hence the reason it doesn't support anything else. :)

I don't want to have to turn on my television to listen to music... You don't have to with the Apple TV.

How do the ATV and Squeezebox compare on internet radio streaming? Is the ATV limited to what iTunes will play?

iTunes won't play Windows media streams, which eliminates some great stations.