My display is a Sony 60A3000 (with latest firmware), and source is a PS3 (also with latest firmware). I have suspected video processing problems with my A3000, and after getting it back from the shop for warranty work (replaced BC Board), I popped in Spiderman 3 on BD. I had the 24hz playback on the PS3 set to "On", and noticed that the motion was very choppy and not seamless as it should be. All enhancements have been turned "Off" on the TV. After watching a couple scenes with good camera pans, I went to the PS3 menu and turned off 24hz playback. Then I watched the same couple scenes again, and noticed that the motion was actually "better", but still was exhibiting the same problems before the TV went to the shop. Now, aside from a bunk TV, isn't 24fps discs supposed to yield smoother motion, especially on 120hz TV's?? I think my A3000 is a true 120hz set, and not one that is 60hz and doubles that to achieve 120hz. I have also watched a couple other BD discs as well, and the problems on my set are the same as before it went into the shop.

My buddy brought his ps3 over and we tried it with 24 Hz output to my Samsung 650. The ps3 was running the latest firmware. It studdered really bad on the sweeping pans of the cityscape in the beginning of I am Legend. I swapped the disk over to my bd30, also outputting 24 Hz, and there was no studdering. In both cases I had the 650's AMP turned off.

I have an A3000 and notice that movies aren't necessarily smooth. Of course 24fps isn't going to be smooth because the frame rate is too slow. Motion enhancer on high and cinemotion off will smooth out some of what I notice with a 24p source, but it's not perfect in trying to make up missing information. Other people have reported that motion naturalizer smooths out motion for them, yet all I notice from that setting is the flashing.

There's always the possability that some piece of electronics is malfunctioning, but there are different factors that could come into play. Comparison by memory is notoriously flawed, so aside from watching the same scene from the same source in the same room on different displays it's somewhat difficult to pinpoint if the display is necessarily causing what you're noticing. One item that comes to mind for why some comparisons could be worthless is room lighting. For example I could stand the LCD I had as long as there was a lot of light in the room, but low-light made it easier for me to notice the TV's flaws. Every display type has a slightly different look and it's quite possible that there's something about SXRD that you find unacceptable in comparison to say DLP. Do other people find the same issues with your TV?

Not really. I've posted some messages about my disappointment in my TV in the A3000 threads, but I've only found maybe 1 person who is experiencing the same problems I am.

if you were to compare 60fps and 24fps native source material then 60fps would look smoother. The problem is that movies are shot in 24fps native and converting them to 60fps distorts signal.

What are DVD discs produced at? 24fps or 60fps? What are BD and HD-DVD discs produced at? I think this is where I am getting confused. Are DVD discs produced with a 3:2 cadence inserted? I think understanding what discs are produced at will give me a better understanding on how to properly set up my source players, and my TV.

BD is 24p. Both DVD and HD DVD would have to be converted back to the original 24fps by some part of the playback chain. With different firmwares my XA2 has had issues converting either to 24p. Personally I don't notice much difference with 24p, so I've mainly just used the HD DVD player at the common 60fps output to avoid some of the issues it has with converting to 24p.

My display is a Sony 60A3000 (with latest firmware), and source is a PS3 (also with latest firmware). I have suspected video processing problems with my A3000, and after getting it back from the shop for warranty work (replaced BC Board), I popped in Spiderman 3 on BD. I had the 24hz playback on the PS3 set to "On", and noticed that the motion was very choppy and not seamless as it should be. All enhancements have been turned "Off" on the TV. After watching a couple scenes with good camera pans, I went to the PS3 menu and turned off 24hz playback. Then I watched the same couple scenes again, and noticed that the motion was actually "better", but still was exhibiting the same problems before the TV went to the shop. Now, aside from a bunk TV, isn't 24fps discs supposed to yield smoother motion, especially on 120hz TV's?? I think my A3000 is a true 120hz set, and not one that is 60hz and doubles that to achieve 120hz. I have also watched a couple other BD discs as well, and the problems on my set are the same as before it went into the shop.

I have your exact same set up. and i have no issues with 24fps on my a3000. 24fps is really for makign the image movment smoother, it jsuts eliminated a 3:2 pulldown ( which is a good thing, one less thing your tv or dvd player has to process). 24fps footage naturally has camera judder on pans, thats just the nature of 24fps, you will see it in theaters too.

I have noticed the best set up ( atleast for me) when watching blu ray movies at 24fps with the A3000 is to set the TV to cinamotion auto 1 and motion enhancer set to standard. It smooths out pans enough that it looks nice and doest make it look to video looking.

I have the same issues with some discs including the Spider-Man movies, it is most noticeable on Ice Age 2 though. I'm also using a PS3 connected HDMI to an ONKYO 805 and using a Panasonic pt-ae1000u projector.

I have noticed the best set up ( atleast for me) when watching blu ray movies at 24fps with the A3000 is to set the TV to cinamotion auto 1 and motion enhancer set to standard. It smooths out pans enough that it looks nice and doest make it look to video looking.

Personally I can't stand cinemotion auto 1 with a 24p source. It introduces unnatural movement on scenes that are fine with cinemotion off or auto 2. The motion enhancer still clearly works on high if cinemotion is off, so I never could find a reason to use cinemotion auto 1 with a 24p source.

I have your exact same set up. and i have no issues with 24fps on my a3000. 24fps is really for makign the image movment smoother, it jsuts eliminated a 3:2 pulldown ( which is a good thing, one less thing your tv or dvd player has to process). 24fps footage naturally has camera judder on pans, thats just the nature of 24fps, you will see it in theaters too.

I have noticed the best set up ( atleast for me) when watching blu ray movies at 24fps with the A3000 is to set the TV to cinamotion auto 1 and motion enhancer set to standard. It smooths out pans enough that it looks nice and doest make it look to video looking.

That's the combination I have found that works best, too. Camera pans are nice and smooth at the expense of looking slightly like video and not film. I just don't understand why CM has to be engaged for BD to be smooth when we have a 120hz set that accepts 1080p/24p. :confused:

24fps is a slow frame rate. If you refresh 24p at 120hz it's still 24fps. The motion enhancer setting can make up extra frames to simulate a higher frame rate.

Isn't 24p supposed to reduce motion judder with pans compared to 60Hz.

Art

if you have both player and display running at 24FPS then its judder free and looks great

Well then my TV's still screwed up. When running Spiderman 3 on BD at 24fps from the PS3, and all enhancements on the TV turned off, the camera pans look more jerky than when not set to 24fps. During camera pans on any movie, objects seem to jump left and right ever so slightly. Very strange. Yay, time to give up my TV to the shop for another week!

I think CNET reviews have reported the Pioneer plasmas as not looking good when using their ability to display a 24p input without judder, so clearly not everyone would agree with twisted.

Well then my TV's still screwed up. When running Spiderman 3 on BD at 24fps from the PS3, and all enhancements on the TV turned off, the camera pans look more jerky than when not set to 24fps. During camera pans on any movie, objects seem to jump left and right ever so slightly. Very strange. Yay, time to give up my TV to the shop for another week!

I don't think its your TV, and I question whether the ps3 is doing 24p correctly, considering I compared a firmware updated ps3 to my Panasonic bd30, both to my Samsung 46a650, both confirmed by my 650 to be sending 24p, and the result was stuttering video from the ps3, but smooth pans from the bd30 on the same scenes. The ps3 looked terrible, the bd30 looked film-like (as it should).

BD is 24p. Both DVD and HD DVD would have to be converted back to the original 24fps by some part of the playback chain. With different firmwares my XA2 has had issues converting either to 24p. Personally I don't notice much difference with 24p, so I've mainly just used the HD DVD player at the common 60fps output to avoid some of the issues it has with converting to 24p.

I don't know where you got the idea HD DVD is 60p, but just like BD, almost all non-video source HD DVD are 24p. There is no need to convert HD DVD to 24p.

I never said HD DVD was 60p. HD DVD is simply not stored on disk as 24p video like Blu-ray. See the last part of http://blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/archive/2006/03/15/HDFacts.aspx

Somewhat misleading IMO. It would seem to be stored at "both" 30fps and 24P. The decoder simply skips the "extra" frames that are there for 30fps and plays only the original 24p frames.

My display is a Sony 60A3000 (with latest firmware), and source is a PS3 (also with latest firmware). I have suspected video processing problems with my A3000, and after getting it back from the shop for warranty work (replaced BC Board), I popped in Spiderman 3 on BD. I had the 24hz playback on the PS3 set to "On", and noticed that the motion was very choppy and not seamless as it should be. All enhancements have been turned "Off" on the TV. After watching a couple scenes with good camera pans, I went to the PS3 menu and turned off 24hz playback. Then I watched the same couple scenes again, and noticed that the motion was actually "better", but still was exhibiting the same problems before the TV went to the shop. Now, aside from a bunk TV, isn't 24fps discs supposed to yield smoother motion, especially on 120hz TV's?? I think my A3000 is a true 120hz set, and not one that is 60hz and doubles that to achieve 120hz. I have also watched a couple other BD discs as well, and the problems on my set are the same as before it went into the shop.

I have the same Tv but do not have ps3 or spidy 3.
But I did have the same problem on a few movies BLU-RAY and HD-DVD with my Samsung BD-UP5000 but after the last firmware updated it fixed the choppy problem.
Have you checked to see if Sony has issued an firmware update for PS3?

I never said HD DVD was 60p. HD DVD is simply not stored on disk as 24p video like Blu-ray. See the last part of http://blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/archive/2006/03/15/HDFacts.aspx

No, it is stored at 24p like HD DVD which completely negates your statement that it would have to be "converted to 24p."

I'll take it the intent was to type Blu-ray like you wrote the first time. The intrepretation I've formed from what I've read is that video for HD DVD is stored on disk similar to what's available in DVD encoding. The player has to process HD DVD video for a 24p output. My Toshiba still has some outstanding issues when selecting 24p, so I considered it relevant to the question asked even if my phrasing didn't pass the semantics board. If I'm way off base, then by all means answer his question because I'd find it interesting.

I'll take it the intent was to type Blu-ray like you wrote the first time. The intrepretation I've formed from what I've read is that video for HD DVD is stored on disk similar to what's available in DVD encoding. The player has to process HD DVD video for a 24p output. My Toshiba still has some outstanding issues when selecting 24p, so I considered it relevant to the question asked even if my phrasing didn't pass the semantics board. If I'm way off base, then by all means answer his question because I'd find it interesting.
I just wanted to comment on this, since you seem to be getting a very different reading of it than myself and others. I read that blurb as saying that the data itself is stored in 24p with flags on how to output it at 30i. If those flags are ignored, then the player simply passes the 24p data that's stored. The part that's key here is this: "Decoders can ignore the “flags” to output P24 or use them to output 30i." Note that when you "ignore" the flags no additional processing needs to take place. The flags are basically just an additional bit of information to help it output 30/60Hz streams more smoothly.

My display is a Sony 60A3000 (with latest firmware), and source is a PS3 (also with latest firmware). I have suspected video processing problems with my A3000, and after getting it back from the shop for warranty work (replaced BC Board), I popped in Spiderman 3 on BD. I had the 24hz playback on the PS3 set to "On", and noticed that the motion was very choppy and not seamless as it should be. All enhancements have been turned "Off" on the TV. After watching a couple scenes with good camera pans, I went to the PS3 menu and turned off 24hz playback. Then I watched the same couple scenes again, and noticed that the motion was actually "better", but still was exhibiting the same problems before the TV went to the shop. Now, aside from a bunk TV, isn't 24fps discs supposed to yield smoother motion, especially on 120hz TV's?? I think my A3000 is a true 120hz set, and not one that is 60hz and doubles that to achieve 120hz. I have also watched a couple other BD discs as well, and the problems on my set are the same as before it went into the shop.
I have noticed judder with a sam 1400 set to 24fps output and CM/ME set to off on the 3000. I thought the last firm update was supposed to fix the 1400 but it did not.
I've ended up leaving the 24fps setting off in the player and CM/ME off on the tv.
Result - perfect picture, no jerky movement, no dropped frames, no flashing.
I'm weak on the tech of recording vs reproducing on the 3000 but I know what fixed the problem on my set.
BTW, this judder thing also appears sometimes on TNT HD, other times it's great. No other HD station (thru Charter) exhibits this problem.

I don't think its your TV, and I question whether the ps3 is doing 24p correctly, considering I compared a firmware updated ps3 to my Panasonic bd30, both to my Samsung 46a650, both confirmed by my 650 to be sending 24p, and the result was stuttering video from the ps3, but smooth pans from the bd30 on the same scenes. The ps3 looked terrible, the bd30 looked film-like (as it should).

Oh, but it is the TV. My other 3 sources show the same problem (Xbox 360, Toshiba A30, over-the-air DTV). Sports broadcasts look awesome, but for film content (and even games for some reason) this TV does not process it correctly as it should.

Oh, but it is the TV. My other 3 sources show the same problem (Xbox 360, Toshiba A30, over-the-air DTV). Sports broadcasts look awesome, but for film content (and even games for some reason) this TV does not process it correctly as it should.

That's a bummer, hope you are able to get it rectified.

I read that blurb as saying that the data itself is stored in 24p with flags on how to output it at 30i.

I think it's the other way around. I just posted that link because I remembered it supporting the idea of there being video stream differences between the two HD formats. Anyway, the actual details are not necessarily important for most end-users because they only have at their disposal some player and display settings. In that regard, my HD DVD player has a few specific issues if using a 24p output and apparently the 3rd generation must also considering the "dont update if you use 1080p24 it causes jaggies!" title.

I think it's the other way around. I just posted that link because I remembered it supporting the idea of there being video stream differences between the two HD formats. Anyway, the actual details are not necessarily important for most end-users because they only have at their disposal some player and display settings. In that regard, my HD DVD player has a few specific issues if using a 24p output and apparently the 3rd generation must also considering the "dont update if you use 1080p24 it causes jaggies!" title.


You are incorrect. It is stored at 24p.

HD DVD is not stored at 24p in the same sense that Blu-ray is. 24p is not even allowable in the HD DVD specs. By 24p I mean 24 frames per second, encoded progressively for each frame.

HD DVD is stored as 23.967 fps with pulldown. The pulldown is indicated by a flag to the player. The effective frame rate with the pulldown is 29.97 frames per second, which is allowed by the HD DVD standard. It's been a while since I looked at it, but I'm almost positive that most HD DVD should be encoded as field based (because of the pulldown) instead of frame based. In short, HD DVD is stored on disc the same way that DVD is in regards to frame rate/pulldown.

You can reference this post by dr1394 for more information on the allowable frame rates:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12452259#post12452259

To get 24p from HD DVD, the player has to recognize the pulldown flag, ignore its instruction to actually perform a pulldown, and reconstruct the fields to make progressive frames. Evidently this is harder than it seems, or all HD DVD players would have the option and there would be no firmware bugs with the ones that do offer the option.

Blu-ray does allow true 24p stored on disc, in addition to 23.967 and others.

EDIT: Regarding 24p vs. 60i. 24p isn't really fast enough to be "smooth" to the discerning eye, especially on medium to high speed pans. This is why film makers are very careful about how the camera moves relative to the scene. All types of complicated rigs are set up to move the camera in just the right way so that it doesn't end up looking "jumpy." 60i is just the original 24p frames broken in to fields, and then "jumbled up" and repeated. I wouldn't necessarily say 60i is more "smooth." Some people can see the 3:2 cadence introduced by the pulldown from 24p to 60i, but most people have just grown used to the way it looks from watching DVD's for so many years. IMO it isn't really more "smooth," but just "different."