I have just found something very disturbing about these new CECB boxes.
We all know they will handle 2 channel stereo and 5.1 down-conversion.
But are any of these boxes outputting stereo on RF channel 3/4 ???

This info floored me, please tell me I'm wrong.
Do these boxes output BTSC stereo ???

The BTSC standard is a public standard,
endorsed by the NAB and EIA,
and authorized by the FCC in the 1980s.

BTSC=Broadcast Television Systems Committee
NAB = National Association (of) Broadcasters
EIA = Electronic Industries Alliance
MTS=Multichannel television sound
SAP = Secondary Adio Programming

The Final Rule for the Coupon Program does allow for two types of stereo audio outputs,
one through audio/video (RCA) connectors and a second using the RF connector.

But, providing stereo at the RF connector is only an OPTIONAL feature !!!

If a CECB is connected into a system,
the consumer will no longer hear stereo audio
unless the CECB provides BTSC stereo at the RF jack.


Wow!

OK, so stereo only by RCA jacks is bad enough...
What about people that use SAP?
Do they loose their language if all they have is a TV with RF in?!

References:
http://www.thatcorp.com/NTIA-letter.html
http://www.thatcorp.com/NTIA-letter-2.html
http://www.thatcorp.com/datashts/Kneuer_letter_8-2-07.pdf
http://www.thatcorp.com/datashts/NTIA-response-10-9-07.pdf
http://www.thatcorp.com/dbxtv-home.html
http://www.thatcorp.com/dbxtv-pr53.html
http://www.thatcorp.com/dbxtv-pr56.html
http://www.thatcorp.com/dbxtv-BTSC.html

I have just found something very disturbing about these new CECB boxes.
We all know they will handle 2 channel stereo and 5.1 down-conversion.
But are any of these boxes outputting stereo on RF channel 3/4 ???

This info floored me, please tell me I'm wrong.
Do these boxes output BTSC stereo ???

...................


While the government allows stereo on the RF output, I've not heard of any CECBs that provide it.

You are not the first person to ask. Just search the fourms for: btsc cecb stereo

Of course not very many models of CECBs have reached the retail market yet. Of all the approved designs, you would think that some company will offer it to separate them from all the me-to generic designs.

I would be very surprised if any BTSC-enabled CECB ever enters the market. Consider S-video - it's an optional feature that costs little to implement, certainly much less than BTSC, yet only one S-video equipped CECB has hit the market.

A digital BTSC encoder chip alone costs $5.50 in bulk (http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0%2C2877%2CAD1970%2C00.html). That's a high-cost part to put into a budget box like a CECB, and once you factor in engineering time and retail markup, the box's price would be driven too high.

As for SAP, I don't see the problem. Instead of pressing the "SAP" button on the TV remote, the consumer presses the "Audio" or "SAP" button on the CECB remote.

jll544,Are you indicating that SAP will appear on all those RF only TV's, just in mono instead?

I have just found something very disturbing about these new CECB boxes.
We all know they will handle 2 channel stereo and 5.1 down-conversion.
But are any of these boxes outputting stereo on RF channel 3/4 ???

This info floored me, please tell me I'm wrong.

Do you know of ANY device (vcr, dvd player, et cetera) that outputs stereo across RF? The answer is no, so why would you expect a cheap $40-50 box to do what more expensive electronics do not?

And yes SAP works without stereo audio. My VCR outputs SAP and it's just using standard mono sound.

Roger you have me confused, everything I own outputs stereo. Even the cheap stuff.

And earlier I wasn't asking why an extra chip was left off, I was asking why it wasn't native to the LSIC in the first place.

Stereo TV has been around for over two decades.
Authorized by FCC 1984, trickled into market throughout 1986.

It is nice to know you have a VCR that does SAP over RF, does you CECB?
Not trying to be snippy there, I'm really asking...

Heck, even my mid-90's RF modulator from RatShack outputs stereo...

Edit: I have one goldstar 4-Head VCR that wont output RF stereo unless the HiFi track embedded in the video scan is present. The old fashioned audio tracks along the edbe of a VCR tape output in mono.

Roger you have me confused, everything I own outputs stereo. Even the cheap stuff. Stero over RF cable? I don't believe that. I have almost 10 different VCRs laying around my house and none of them do stereo RF. Neither do my DVRs or DVD players.

Which pieces of equipment do you own that you think output RF stereo? I suspect they do not. It is nice to know you have a VCR that does SAP over RF, does you CECB? No idea. I'll check when I get home.

Roger you have me confused, everything I own outputs stereo. Even the cheap stuff.

And earlier I wasn't asking why an extra chip was left off, I was asking why it wasn't native to the LSIC in the first place.

Stereo TV has been around for over two decades.
Authorized by FCC 1984, trickled into market throughout 1986.

It is nice to know you have a VCR that does SAP over RF, does you CECB?
Not trying to be snippy there, I'm really asking...

Heck, even my mid-90's RF modulator from RatShack outputs stereo...

Edit: I have one goldstar 4-Head VCR that wont output RF stereo unless the HiFi track embedded in the video scan is present. The old fashioned audio tracks along the edbe of a VCR tape output in mono.

I have several VHS Hi-Fi VCRs in this house, including two top of the line JVC S-VHS models...none of them output stereo sound via the RF modulator. I've never seen a VCR that does-- the RCA line out jacks normally have to be used.

Same for a couple of DirecTV receivers that I've had, and my current Dish Network receiver. I also purchased a cable converter locally many years back that offered MTS stereo sound--but not with the RF out.

I do have vague memories, though, of an RF modulator from Radio Shack that was capable of stereo...that must be the one that you have.

The Zenith CECB that I have outputs mono sound only via the RF out, and I'm all but 100% certain that you won't find a converter that does offer stereo via RF out. This feature is definitely the rare exception with consumer electronics.

This is all such sad news...you did mention mono audio on the CECB's RF out, but didn't mention SAP. I'll assume they haven't overlooked people of other nationalities. I live in Texas next to Mexico, I assure you that would be a hot topic here....

Roger, It might be time to rip down my entertainment setup and clean/rewire it for something to do. Seems manufactures just don't want the model numbers on the front. But even if mine do, the average unit doesn't output RF (MTS) stereo... Sucks if you ask me.

This is all such sad news...you did mention mono audio on the CECB's RF out, but didn't mention SAP. I'll assume they haven't overlooked people of other nationalities. I live in Texas next to Mexico, I assure you that would be a hot topic here....

Roger, It might be time to rip down my entertainment setup and clean/rewire it for something to do. Seems manufactures just don't want the modwel numbers on the front. But even if mine do, the everage unit doesn't... Sucks if you ask me.

SAP is available with the Zenith converter--there's a button on the remote, though I've only seen one digital channel in this area that utilizes it so far.

Thanks wh5916,

I know It's part of the CECB requirements to support SAP and EBS (Emergency Broadcast System) streams,
I was just trying to confirm the audio wasn't RCA only for SAP.

Thanks wh5916,

I know It's part of the CECB requirements to support SAP and EBS (Emergency Broadcast System) streams,
I was just trying to confirm the audio wasn't RCA only for SAP.

No, it's definitely not RCA output only--SAP audio functions with either RF out or RCA out on the Zenith, and I can't picture any converter handling SAP differently. As you mentioned, there would be some very unhappy folks otherwise.

Well thats the important question. Thank you.


On the other one, I just shake my head at industry in disgust! :mad:

I may not be the one to be a good reference to this stereo topic as I am off the beaten path. I own a Sony Hi-8 home deck that lets me store over 37 hours of better than CD quality PCM encoded audio by turning the video off. My TV has passthrough for a converter box already. And when purchasing, I can't imagine I would let myself buy something that wasn't full MTS throughout. I just tried that old R.S. RF modulator and plugged only one RCA in to make sure it wasn't just a resistor combined mono unit. It is stereo...

But if the average person goes in a store and buys something that isn't on the bottom of a product line. Like getting the 4-Head VCR with HiFi stereo instead of the lowly 2-Head analog stereo edge track model.

One would expect it to output stereo through ALL it's outputs,
wouldn't one? Sigh :(

And earlier I wasn't asking why an extra chip was left off, I was asking why it wasn't native to the LSIC in the first place.

Whether BTSC is implemented inside the SoC or as a separate chip, it still comes down to cost. THAT Corp owns active patents on digital BTSC encoders. The required licensing fees make BTSC prohibitive for a low-cost device.

Sure, you could implement BTSC in analog to avoid licensing (the analog BTSC patent has expired), but analog signal processing circuitry comes with its own issues.

I see your point, still bums me out though...
Thanks for good topic input :)

Very, very few consumer electronics ever did stereo out on RF. It seems like I remember one or two, but not in a long time.

Further checking reveals all my HI-8 Sony units do output stereo on RF, but none of my (never use them) VHS decks in a storage closet do.

So I guess everyone here use VHS....

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, I just feel bad that all the people out there that have RF in only TV's can watch stereo from the headend of their cable company. But upon taping an episode, have to play it back in mono....

And those with satellite boxs? Do they need a stereo RF modulator if they only have RF in too? That just seems wrong, hot did this get overlooked?

I was thinking about this and my first TV with MTS was 1983? I think. A Sony KV-2680R counsel with beautiful wood cabinet. Anyway it also had a video/audio input. I wonder just how many MTS TV's did not have a video input? Didn't MTS come around the time that video inputs were added?

Further checking reveals all my HI-8 Sony units do output stereo on RF, but none of my (never use them) VHS decks in a storage closet do.

So I guess everyone here use VHS....

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, I just feel bad that all the people out there that have RF in only TV's can watch stereo from the headend of their cable company. But upon taping an episode, have to play it back in mono....

And those with satellite boxs? Do they need a stereo RF modulator if they only have RF in too? That just seems wrong, hot did this get overlooked?

In the past 10 years, I've had three DirecTV receivers and 2 Dish Network receivers. All of them offered mono sound only via the RF out. Again, this is very typical, and folks with televisions that only offer RF in can still hear stereo sound by plugging the device into a stereo system.

Even my first VCR, a second generation Sony Beta Hi-Fi deck which retailed for around $1000, only offered stereo sound via the RCA jacks. The RF modulator was mono sound only.

Thank you for the dish feedback.

Good point about using a stereo instead of the TV,
kinda reminds me of those ''Simul-Cast'' FM/TV days.

And when MTV and VH1 were mono, but cable providers pushed the stereo feed on an empty FM channel on their network. All you need to do was put in a splitter and feed cable into any FM stereo.

And Beta WAS better... (That outta get a response, lol),
But I love my Hi-8's anyway.

The only "box" I've ever had that offered MTS stereo through an RF out connector was a Jerrold cable box I used to have years ago when I had CATV still. The only problem was, the cable company only offered maybe 10 or 12 channels in (((Stereo))) so it wasn't that great of an added feature, but I would run the volume all the way up on the Jerrold and it sounded decent.

Yeah, I remember those, mine had a pair of RCA outs too. Was novel (new, never seen yet) at the time...

I just tried that old R.S. RF modulator and plugged only one RCA in to make sure it wasn't just a resistor combined mono unit. It is stereo... Why not plug that into the back of your Coupon Box? Like getting the 4-Head VCR with HiFi stereo instead of the lowly 2-Head analog stereo edge track model. One would expect it to output stereo through ALL it's outputs, wouldn't one? Sigh :( Yeah one might expect it, but that's not how it works. Hi-Fi VCRs come with mono RF outputs.

My $1500 Digital VHS unit doesn't even HAVE an rf out. The jack is there, but in order to save mono, JVC eliminated the channel 3/4 modulator. So if you want to see a picture, you have to use the composite, s-video, or component video cables.

Further checking reveals all my HI-8 Sony units do output stereo on RF, but none of my (never use them) VHS decks in a storage closet do.

So I guess everyone here use VHS.... I use Super VHS which is just as good as a Hi-8. And Beta WAS better... (That outta get a response, lol), Yep! :-) Betamax-I did 250 lines. VHS-SP did 240 lines, but the revised VHS HQ standard provided 250 lines of horizontal resolution, so JVC could compete with Betamax.

Furthermore, since Betamax-I only allowed 1 hour per tape, Hollywood movies were released in Betamax-II which (due to the slower speed) only provided 240 lines of horizontal resolution.

So a VHS Hollywood movie recorded at SP speed actually looked *better* than that same Hollywood movie recorded on Betamx-II.

250 lines for a storebought VHS-SP tape
versus
240 lines for a storebought Betamax-II tape

VHS wins (barely).

10.5 hours per VHS-EP tape versus 5.5 hours for Betamax-III tape. VHS wins again in the length category (which is what the buying public truly cared about; quantity not quality).

Several C-band satellite TV receivers in the late 80's or early 90's had stereo RF modulators built-in, and as WeThePeople mentioned, Radio Shack did sell a stereo modulator a while back, for about US$40.

Just pokin' back to say hi.

Gosh Roger, I swear you have to much time on your hands. But your right on all counts.

Except one. Beta just handled color better. You can vomit specifications at me at will, but the darn stuff just looked way better. Spec's be damned. Sorry fella. it just ''looked'' better. I mean isn't that the point? The prsentation?

Anyway, All my Hi-8 Stuff outputs stereo, I'm sorry that didn't become commonplace for VHS/Satallite/Cable. Tell me this, why in the flyin'-**** didn't people scream to holy hell over that? Your all such smart people...
I've read remarks of people spending over a friggin' $1000 and not getting stereo output? Wow is all I can say.

I'll admit, I'm spoiled. I started this thread because I thought I caught a minority, and got blasted by a majority that I was outta touch... Nope, you dumb-asses that didn't crawl right up manufactures asses for saving exactly $3.32 (According to an engineer friend) for not supplying you with federally mandated MTS/SAP RF capabilty are the sad-sacks here. Sorry! REALLY!!

NOT OUTPUTTING STEREO IS BEYOND LAME!

Don'y get me wrong, you guys got hosed...
but the whole thing is super-lame

Just pokin' back to say hi.



Anyway, All my Hi-8 Stuff outputs stereo, I'm sorry that didn't become commonplace for VHS/Satallite/Cable. Tell me this, why in the flyin'-**** didn't people scream to holy hell over that? Your all such smart people...
I've read remarks of people spending over a friggin' $1000 and not getting stereo output? Wow is all I can say.


NOT OUTPUTTING STEREO IS BEYOND LAME!

Don'y get me wrong, you guys got hosed...
but the whole thing is super-lame

No...it didn't bother me at all, because I wasn't expecting stereo sound from the modulator. Watching via an RF modulator is the worst way in the world to view an image in the first place, let alone sound.

Anyone willing to spend $1000 or so for a piece of video equipment (or $500, as far as I'm concerned) is most certainly going to want to hook that equipment up in the best way that they possibly can...in 1985, that meant composite video/audio out for consumer gear. These days, it means either component out or, S-Video out, or in the case of most of these converter boxes, composite out.

This is why most people haven't raised a fuss...anyone who truly cares about audio/video quality is going to use the RF out of a device only if they have no other way to hook up the equipment.

I'll admit, I'm spoiled. I started this thread because I thought I caught a minority, and got blasted by a majority that I was outta touch... Nope, you dumb-asses that didn't crawl right up manufactures asses for saving exactly $3.32 (According to an engineer friend) for not supplying you with federally mandated MTS/SAP RF capabilty are the sad-sacks here. Sorry! REALLY!!
When is the last time you bought a device that gave you stereo on the Ch 3/4 output? The only place where stereo TV is mandated is in your mind. Although, it does appear that you live in your own world. The real world is just too "lame."

When is the last time you bought a device that gave you stereo on the Ch 3/4 output? ."

I'm sure if one did, it would have more than superb frequency response AND
seperation, far better than any Orban or CRL stereo generator could deliver.:D

Of course, if the stereo light is on then it's gotta be stereo, right?

No...it didn't bother me at all, because I wasn't expecting stereo sound from the modulator. Watching via an RF modulator is the worst way in the world to view an image in the first place, let alone sound.

Anyone willing to spend $1000 or so for a piece of video equipment (or $500, as far as I'm concerned) is most certainly going to want to hook that equipment up in the best way that they possibly can...in 1985, that meant composite video/audio out for consumer gear. These days, it means either component out or, S-Video out, or in the case of most of these converter boxes, composite out.

This is why most people haven't raised a fuss...anyone who truly cares about audio/video quality is going to use the RF out of a device only if they have no other way to hook up the equipment.
Totally agree with you. I got my first MTS TV in 1984. One of the first ones I believe. It also had one composite input as well as stereo audio inputs. From then on I never used modulated RF anymore. Composite + audio was so much better. I realized stereo equipment like VCR's STB's etc. didn't have modulated stereo but I could care less. I got my stereo via line inputs/outputs.
As I posted somewhere else I believe basically every TV made with MTS also had line audio inputs. That's the route I took.