after i am "almost sure" that i can find a way to feed my 3d pictures
2048x1080 with one computer via one dvi out
to the barco dp 2000 and this pr. can display it at full resulution
in 144 hz flicker free (2x72 hz per eye)
i order this unit.

i had in the past 2 christie hd6k 3 chip dlp pr. 1920x1080 with 1000 watt xenon
and i like this pr. a lot.
no pr. that i have during the last good 1 year at my home can match the
picture quality this christie pr. had.

i use 2 because i do 3d with a 3m wide silver screen with passive polarizer.

it works fine but it need always much time and adjustments to switch between
2d for films at the big 7m 2.35 screen and 3d at the small 3m silver screen.

my goal was to do 2d films AND 3d pictures at the same big 7m screen (harkness hall matt preview gain 1.0)
with only one pr.in shutter for 3d.

i saw some 2x 60 hz 3d but i can see some flicker so the only way was to
buy a cinema unit that can runn in 144 hz flicker free.

there was only two projektors at the moment that can do that
at the full resolution 2048x1080 in 144 hz.

the barco dp 1500 and the barco dp 2000.

both units are identical more or less.
the 1500 can take lamps till to 3000 watt the dp 2000 till 4000 watt.
both using the new 0,98" cinema chips 2048x1080 with dc4.

there is a lot of work for the pre instalation as you can see in the first pictures.

new much stronger power supply is need havy intake air strong filtered to protect the unit from dust
and exhaust air all that the christie pr. all not need.

how it perform against the christie hd 6k
is cinema prozessing really better?
did i can do 3d as i hope?
what problem the pr. have?

that all later.


http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2500.JPG

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2503.JPG



http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_0027.JPG

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_00381.JPG






http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2396.JPG

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_0051.JPG

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_0054.JPG

W.Mayer
1 Can the DP3000 also display at 144Hz?
2 Is the DP3000 also using dmds that use the DC4 process or are they older and still only DC3?

Do you have any interest in moving 3D pictures or are you primarily interested in 3D still photography? I sometimes ask myself what I would prefer a 2D moving pictures presentation with good depth or a 3D moving pictures presentation.

Wow ! Thanks for the update Wolfgang. I love your projects and obviously you are taking no chances with that lamp.:)


Art

I thought the same, now W.Mayer can get a tan on a raindy day. :)

[QUOTE=Ohlson;13777218]W.Mayer
1 Can the DP3000 also display at 144Hz?
2 Is the DP3000 also using dmds that use the DC4 process or are they older and still only DC3?

1 yes it can but as i post already not a full resolution 2048x1080
max. was
1628 x 880 flat
1920 x 804 cs

2 the use the old dc3 chips 1,2" and electronics.

how it perform against the christie hd 6k?

i use the christie hd6k with a isco3 optic in front and that kill the ansi
cr. as i have post since long time.

but for the test christie hd 6k vs barco cinema dp 2000 it was no problem
because i runn the hd6k without the isco3 lens.

here are some numbers that both pr. have

christie hd6k

6800 centerlumen at 150 hours no iris
at normaly color 6300 centerlumen at d 65
cr. on off 2650:1 iris closed at 9 for normaly
color about 2440:1 at d 65
open the iris will decrease cr. to
2300:1 at normaly color and
2150:1 at d 65
ansi cr. 650:1 at normaly color



barco dp 2000

17200 centerlumen for 1920x1080
18370 centerlumen for 2048x1080
lamp on 50 hours(lost about 8% so the unit have new almost
20000 centerlumens:))
numbers after color calibration
at cinema color
d 65 cost -11% light
2312:1 cinema color
2060:1 d65 color(reduce 11%)
ansi cr. about 750:1 have to measure again


http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2479.JPG



i use a new lumagen radiance scaler and a spatz hdmi splitter to feed
the same signal into the units.
but as the barco have no adjustments at all even not cr. and brighness i need to
make 2 different banks in the lumagen to make it easy to switch between the 2 units.

as i can almost dimm down the barco to the light level the christie offers at max. light out
it was fast clear that
both units make a very good picture and there is not day and night differences
between them.

the most disappointment was to see that when i drive the barco at cinema prozessing that this
NOT reduce the fals contour bug as i hope for and as many people told me.

than the secound shock.
all fine details are filtered out!
so some test pattern show that drop in high freq. very good.
i talk with barco but there are some adjustment deep inside the unit
where you you can switch that filters off.
after i did it it shows the same sharp image with no decrease
in high freq. anymore.

the cr.on off number the barco have is not as good as the christie
can do at iris 9 but i never feel it looks wores.
i think the high ansi cr. make this difference or and the better cinema optics as well.
the barco picture looks a bit more sharp and a littel more 3d like.

i had about 40 ftl on the screen when i did the tests and i never fell
even in dark seq. like casino rojal chapter 5 that i miss some cr.
also it was interesting to see that even with the barco have about 15% more light on the screen
as the christie the cr. visual looks better with the barco!
i dirve the barco in cinema color as i like the bigger color bandwidth
and i use the lumagen do drop the 2.6 gamma that the dp 2000 use when
it works in cinema color.

the color calibration later not change it visible much so the pr. was out of the box
good in color.

in summary i can say that both pr. make a outstanding picture.
if you not count all the problems a cinema unit have see my fist post
and you not count the price i think beside the more lumens this barco have it is
a little bit better mostly thanks to the dc4 chips.

for me as i rate the new barco only as a 2d pr. that show movies its a stepp up for me
as it shows a bit better picture and the lens i use works with the 2.35 format screen without any
isco 3 lens and thats also a improvment.

so all in all its the better pr. for 2d movies but the differences are not that big.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2482.JPG

please note that i not use a cr. improvment as the
dp 1500 from peter have because i need all the light for 3d.

i hope some day they find a way to make it adjustable
and than i will also gain cr. by almost double for 2d films and
still can use the full light for 3d.

W.Mayer
Will you be able to loan and view a D-cinema source in your home? It is always special to view things in your own setup.
I am glad that you are happy with your upgrade. We are looking forward to your reports on 3D performance.

So if you need the light output for 3D or large screen this is the way to go. Also DCI machines have the color filters allowing for wider color gamut. Im hoping some of this color technology trickles down to consumer level soon.

3d

as i post already the main reason to buy this new pr.is to
do 2d AND 3d at the same screen with only one projector
instead of 2 pr. and no additional small 3m silver screen.

i was only "almost sure" that i works in 3d like i hope.

so the unit arrive me and some days later i got my pc back from
mr. trautner in austria that modifi this pc to output my
3d pictures at 2048x1080.

he also build the sync box that i need to drive the emitter
that controll and sync the shutter glasses.

for some reason it not works.

i try it 2 days with the help form mr. trautner and than he build a new sync box because we think that
this one is brocken.

but some days later i got a secound one but
even with this new box it not work at all.

i was very frustrated as this was the main reason to buy this pr.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2527.JPG



i contact barco than and after some days barco told me that some early units
have a bug at the 37 pin connector.
the connect it inside mirrored so the pin are not right connectet.

i change this and from that time on it works in 3d perfect.

than some days later a other bad news.

i must discover that my calculation about lumens in 3d per eye are wrong.

i not count that if you do 3d aktiv with one pr. than you measure on the screen
(the left and right one the same time on the screen see this picture)
both pictures left and right at the same time and that doubles the light output.
when the shutter is in between the picture you see ONLY ether left OR right so
to make it easy to understand
"i have half light on the screen as i original count".

my mistake but as i already ordert the unit that have the highest lumen out
i cant do anything about it.

so now depends on the screen size i use in 3d 5,3m wide is max. because of my 2.35 format screen
or min. 4,98m(that is the smallest picture my optic can do)
and depens on what shutter i use(i have both the nuvision and the cristaleye)
i can get between 12.6 ftl to 17.5 ftl in 3d to the eye net with a new lamp.
that is compare to cinemas where you have in 3d between 3.5-4.5 ftl a lot but
not as bright as i original thought.

as i work with the unit now sice some days i begin to appreciate
how nice it was to have one pr. for 2d and 3d at only one screen.
reason is also that all adjustments(size lamp output focus location horz. and vert.and all the rest)
can be stored as a macro and just one push brings me from 2d in 7m 2.35 format to
3d at 5.3m at 1.89:1
very very nice.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2530.JPG

W.Mayer
Will you be able to loan and view a D-cinema source in your home? It is always special to view things in your own setup.
I am glad that you are happy with your upgrade. We are looking forward to your reports on 3D performance.

just done.

yes i will get a cinema server that can playback 2d and 3d content.
i also will get some demo material in 2d and 3d and hope for a solution
to get real content:)

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2530.JPG


I just love this. Forty fL on a screen greater than 20' wide. This is the epitome of not ****ing around !:)


Could you just for fun post a pic of you and a familiar BD or HDDVD up there ?

Art

Could you just for fun post a pic of you and a familiar BD or HDDVD up there ?

Art

I second that..something in scope via the new Barco:)

art

what you mean by forty?

3d i can get till to 17 ftl on 5.3m but 2d i can go to above 60 ftl on the 7m screen without the isco3 lens:)

what picture you like to see?
a high resolution one with a bd payed AND ME:D in front of the 7m screen?

cr. on off improvment.

its some how sad that i not can order the cr. improvment with the
apature plate as the dp 1500 from peter have because
i need all the light for 3d and this tool it till today not
adjustable its fix inside or not.


my hope was that a apature plate at the openig of the lamp house
will do similar things but to keep it short it not works.

i found only one shape that is not on the picture(cat eye shape) that increase the cr. on ff by arround 18.5% but that costs 43% light.
that is not very efficient as when you have such a plate in the light engine
it costs about the same light drop but it gain cr.about 80%!!!

now i have hope that the company that do the cr. improvment will find
a way to make it adustable from outside.

some day this feature will be for sure inside some pr. may also
prof. high lumen projectors.


http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2516.JPG




http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_0240.JPG

problems:

the pr.have some problems when it arrives as most other pr. as well.

convergenz was not good the tuch screen have a bug and the thing about
the 37 pin connector are not nice.

all that are solved by barco very nicely and fast.
i got a new tuch screen that works so far now without any problem.
i get a 37 pin adapter that corrects the bug and the convergenze was
after the adjustments very good.

summary:

this pr. is not a normaly home cinema pr.
it demands a lot of special ambient conditions and its not designt to runn in a normaly home cinema room.
it need at least a seperate pr. room.

but as the home cinema screen gets bigger and bigger and at the same time
more and more people like to have above 25 ftl on there screen or more:)
there is a market for such pr. in home cinemas.

for most user that are not do 3d the should order the unit WITH the cr. improvment as it almost double the on off cr.

there is no need for the dp2000 because the
dp 1500 can take till 3000 watt xenon lamps and they should give
you 12000 lumen without cr. mod. and about 6500-7000 lumen with it.


if you have or plan a big screen over 4m wide and you like it bright
the dp 1500 with the cr. modification that give you arround 4000-7000 lumen
(depends on the lamp you put inside)
at 4000:1 cr.is the pr. for you and i think that is at the moment the best pr.
for such a set up.
this pr. can be the ultimativ solution.

end

W.Mayer
Perhaps this can serve as your future cr modification that also is variable. Note the reference to digital cinema.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1023461

art

what you mean by forty?

3d i can get till to 17 ftl on 5.3m but 2d i can go to above 60 ftl on the 7m screen without the isco3 lens:)

what picture you like to see?
a high resolution one with a bd payed AND ME:D in front of the 7m screen?


I thought I read some place where you said it had 40fL with the provided aperture plate.

Yes, you with a familiar scene of some scope scene and in HD.:)

Art

hi art

yes i made the test barco vs christie at about 40 ftl but
if i like i can now go to over 60 ftl for 2d at the 7m screen.

for the pictures i do "ONLY FOR YOU" i use this 64ftl:)

as the avs picture quality here is limited i send you a 13 mil pixel picture
with pm.

ALAN IN THIS HIGH END SECTION YOU SHOUD ALLOW 1920X1080
OR BETTER 2048X1080
BECAUSE THAT IS THE CINEMA STANDART:):):)

its may interesting to take a look at the last 2 pictures.
both show the same image at 7m but only the camera position was
different.
the last one looks much bigger as the one before or?



http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2538.jpg



http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2562.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2556.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2552.jpg

Wow!

Wow!

I second that. Very impressive.

Now THAT is Home Theater!

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2552.jpg

:cool:

mmmm that tastes good on my eyes.

Very impressive indeed! As Art so eloquently put it, there's no F&*#ing around.

Serious shrinkage going on over here in the US.:D Thanks Wolfgang !

Art

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_0054.JPG


Wolfgang : There is a uniform missing at your local landesfeuerwehr.

You are a Showman!!! :D

Nicht schlecht on the end result, congratulations.

Well I guess this validates me with all the naysayers at the forum that insist there are other better ways. You have confirmed there are none, the Barco is the king of projectors.

You have not commented on the color accuracy though??

Peter,
You could learn a thing or two from Wolfgang's style. He lets the facts speak for themselves.;)

Art

If size of screen is the requirement I am working on it.

Wolfgang : There is a uniform missing at your local landesfeuerwehr.

i need this uniform when i shoot big fireworks but you know how
dangerous such a big lamp can be if its for some reason implode!

may later you not need anymore a pr. and as i already lost my
right ear i take more care about my eyes than before.

Well I guess this validates me with all the naysayers at the forum that insist there are other better ways. You have confirmed there are none, the Barco is the king of projectors.

well this is right as i also not can see any pr. that is today there
that have the same good picture but this can change soon.
wait for infocomm in june you will see there some nice pr.
but may xenon is missing:mad:
also it have to take in count how difficult this pr. is to drive with all the
ambient conditions.
so for some that is the wrong pr.beside the price.

i really hope for a adjustable iris that can take the heat from a 4000 watt
xenon lamp without destroy some optical parts as i can go then also
with 4000:1 on off or a little bit more at 35 ftl without the isco3 lens and
that will be even better from what i have today.:)

You have not commented on the color accuracy though??

in 3d i runn the unit at native colors witch are very close to cinema color
and both different sutter change the color a bit different.
but the end result if you compare it with dolby3d or with polarizer
is the better than all what i saw before.

at 2d i runn at cinema color so far and adjust the lumagen a bit to match
more to d65.
i will look into it later but both pr. the cristie and the barco can have almost the same good color.
i dont can see in color a difference when i did the test.

i hope to test soon a cinema server with some content.
i guess here will be a difference visible for sure.

about color.

take a more closely look at the 3 pictures down.

the 3th one i made from the side is cinema color.
the 2th one from the front is
cinema color adjust by the lumagen.
you can see that in the one from side the color is over saturated
the other one not.

also this movie change color very very much.
compare the skin tone from him from 1th picture to 2th picture.

both pictures use the same pr.+ lumagen
adustments and the same camera set up
unbelievably !!!

"""very very differnt""" or?





http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2562.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2556.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2552.jpg[/QUOTE]

Mayer

Do you find BD and 1080p resolution hold up for your viewing distance and screen size.

Very impressive.

:cool:


What, no "way to go BIG DOG! (Grosser Hund)"??:eek:

What, no "way to go BIG DOG! (Grosser Hund)"??:eek:


Ya, du bist ein grosse hund herr doctor.:D

Art

Ya, du bist ein grosse hund herr doctor.:D

Art

Stimmt schon, Art, und zwar!! Na und:)

Herr doctor Burnstien, ish habe keine ahnung, Ich spreche kein deutsch.

Art

Fuer ein Keinsprecher, Du sprichst sehr gut! Enjoy the 3 chip!!

Fuer ein Keinsprecher, Du sprichst sehr gut! Enjoy the 3 chip!!


Danke schon grosse hund !

Art

This gross change in color timing (found here in Casino Royale) is present throughout the myriad of HD media in circulation. It really only becomes clear what's going on when one observes these sources under highly calibrated conditions using DCI conforming projectors like the Barco, Christie, NEC, and Sony professional Cinema models.

Now this is supposed to be a completely linearized, standardized digital distribution system - seemingly able to eliminate variations from venue to venue and projector to projector. But it still requires individual adjustment and calibration ( on a regular basis) of a high order in order to follow the standard perfectly (or at least very nearly so = +/- 1.0 deV (Delta E) Deviation from 0 - 100 IRE, at both D6504 (HD) and D5400 (DCI)).

But other than pioneers like Wolfgang, Peter, and several fine members of this and other forums who make it there daily (and nightly) business to extract every last bit of picture (and sound) information from whatever the source, who is to maintain and exceed these standards in the respective industries, whose products and quality are completely determined by them?

Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

jeremy

is cinema color not arround 6300 kelvin?
never hear that is 5400.

This gross change in color timing (found here in Casino Royale) is present throughout the myriad of HD media in circulation. It really only becomes clear what's going on when one observes these sources under highly calibrated conditions using DCI conforming projectors like the Barco, Christie, NEC, and Sony professional Cinema models.

Now this is supposed to be a completely linearized, standardized digital distribution system - seemingly able to eliminate variations from venue to venue and projector to projector. But it still requires individual adjustment and calibration ( on a regular basis) of a high order in order to follow the standard perfectly (or at least very nearly so = +/- 0.1 deV Deviation from 0 - 100 IRE, at both D6504 (HD) and D5400 (DCI)).

But other than pioneers like Wolfgang, Peter, and several fine members of this and other forums who make it there daily (and nightly) business to extract every last bit of picture (and sound) information from whatever the source, who is to maintain and exceed these standards in the respective industries, whose products and quality are completely determined by them?

Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

The color timing differences from scene to scene in CR is obvious on my projection system and was in fact an issue when critically viewing my pre and post color calibration Ken Whitcomb and I did.

I think if you read any of the posts Rob Hahn made after he came up here you would see that the expectation of there being some sort of concerted vertical integration from camera to projection is pure fantasy.

Art

jeremy

is cinema color not arround 6300 kelvin?
never hear that is 5400.

The following PDF (from the 143rd SMPTE Conference in 2001) is a little long and technical, but here is basically what it says:

"SMPTE 196M defines the white point for a movie theatre as 5400°K +600° -200°. This gives a range from 5200° to 6000°, and makes no specification of actual chromaticity tolerances. This is intended to be the color of white light on the screen, and is the result of a xenon lamp source modified by the reflector, the projection lens, the port glass, and the screen color. Each of these elements contributes to changing the color of the reflected light from the screen."

"In practice, this means that when a cinematographer creates a picture intended to be shown on a 5400°K projection device, the actual theatre will provide a wide array of differing white point colors for the work, and resulting variability in the look of the projected image. Berggren (1) discovered with his measurements of Hollywood screening rooms and labs that even these locations show a wide variability in white point, spanning a similar range from less than 4800° to more than 6700°. To put this variation into visually significant terms, the color difference across this sample is 48 Delta E units, or about 16 JND’s. This is about one third of the total color difference between D-6500 and bright yellow, effectively eliminating one third of the color variation available between white and yellow. The largest deviation toward green represents 24 Delta E units in color difference"

Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

Cinema white from film projectors depends on the lamp. Cinema white with digital cinema has a defined x and y value and has a CCT of about 6000-6200K. I would have to measure it to have a precise CCT number, but CCT numbers are almost meaningless and are a very imprecise definition of white. The precise definition is the point on the CIE diagram.

Cinema white from film projectors depends on the lamp. Cinema white with digital cinema has a defined x and y value and has a CCT of about 6000-6200K. I would have to measure it to have a precise CCT number, but CCT numbers are almost meaningless and are a very imprecise definition of white. The precise definition is the point on the CIE diagram.

I think a little history of cinema is in order! Please read the PDF (below) if you are interested - it is quite detailed. But essentially it comes down to this for us here today:


http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Kipnis-Studios/WhitePointsinTHXCinemas.png


"Texas Instruments DLP: x=.314, y=.351. Some would have us accept that actual white points in theaters will always be green-shifted, as they are now. We’ve been living a lie for decades now, pretending that theaters were being calibrated to D55, when they weren’t. Do we pick a new point on the daylight curve and continue the pretense of a standard no one will follow, or should we recognize reality by choosing a target shifted toward green? The latter choice is the tack that TI has taken with their DLP Cinema™. They did extensive work that showed this better matches existing film systems, and gives the best results as far as light efficiency and dynamic range with xenon lamps."

Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

one developer of this barco dp 2000 unit told me the same as odyssey.
he sad that the cinema color is arround 6200 kelvin.

i not think that he can be made a mistake otherwise all barco cinema units
show very wrong color at the cinemas.

also christi told me the same.

one developer of this barco dp 2000 unit told me the same as odyssey.
he sad that the cinema color is arround 6200 kelvin.

i not think that he can be made a mistake otherwise all barco cinema units
show very wrong color at the cinemas.

also christi told me the same.

And consequently, only a few commercial DLP cinemas in the world (much less 35mm installations) actually follow the SMPTE standards as they are defined.

http://web.cinelex.ru/cinelexdi/docs/smpte_196m_2003.pdf

The FANTASTIC results of Wolfgang and Peter are not typical (in my experience), and these commercial theater digital projectors do require some considerable calibration and regular care and adjustment in order to maintain that precise image quality that is technically possible and visually accurate.

Otherwise, (from 1999 - 2006) Technicolor would not have committed to individually adjusting each DLP Cinema set-up for the particular digital print shown at the time. I recall a particularly well handled DLP presentation of Ridley Scott's ALIEN, where I watched the calibrator hand adjust the Christie DLP Head unit and lamp reflector elements to produce absolutely stunning results on screen (this was in 2003). But, as he pointed out, this level of perfection is at the discretion and expense of the theater owner!

Given that, we are at a new crossroads in potential image quality and accuracy to reality, particularly in 3D with realistic light levels!

Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

Jeremy,

We have been through this before. The DLP DCI units are very easy to calibrate and the process is mostly automatic, requiring only four measurements. The color of white is unimportant, as long as the transfer is made using that white as reference so that the colors are accurate. There is some color drift due to spectral change as the lamp ages, but it's fairly small with Xenon and recalibration is again, only four measurements and takes about 15 minutes to do. I have four years experience now with one of these units and they all use the same calibration system, called the TI 7. Not only is the color calibration accurate and relatively stable, but the light output is also adjusted with the CLO (constant light output) system to compensate for lamp aging. This is through a light sensor that measures the light output and keeps it constant.

That is one good thing about DCinema projectors and content. All DC projectors regardless the manufacture are built to meet the same spec that the content is mixed for. The specs have not changed for years. That brings longevity to the table owning a DC projector.

about color.

take a more closely look at the 3 pictures down.

the 3th one i made from the side is cinema color.
the 2th one from the front is
cinema color adjust by the lumagen.
you can see that in the one from side the color is over saturated
the other one not.

also this movie change color very very much.
compare the skin tone from him from 1th picture to 2th picture.

both pictures use the same pr.+ lumagen
adustments and the same camera set up
unbelievably !!!

"""very very differnt""" or?





http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2562.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2556.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2552.jpg[/QUOTE]


Wolfgang why are you using p7 color space? This is not the correct way of watching rec 709 content.

You will find that if you change the color space to Rec 709 the variances in Casino Royale are less noticeable.


I went back yesterday to look look at Rec 709 casino royale, the same scenes you photographed and the result was more consistent.

stunned by your screen size and the pj :)
THAT's cinema at home ! not home theater
now you just need stadium with 25seats and big sound :)
i think the DP, BARCO, PANA are much much much better choices and MUCH brighter than the SIM2 C3X/HT5000.

Speaking of the ht5000 , is a dual bulb version in production? On a lesser screen it could be a choice for those users where a digital cinema install is too complex.

stunned by your screen size and the pj :)
THAT's cinema at home ! not home theater
now you just need stadium with 25seats and big sound :)
i think the DP, BARCO, PANA are much much much better choices and MUCH brighter than the SIM2 C3X/HT5000.

Not that you don't already know this but I hope you aren't comparing an 18,000 lumen projector to a 1800 lumen one. Also I think it might be interesting to see what a 2000:1 on off looks like compared to 6000:1 in lower APL presentation.I've now also heard from more than one source that the Barco has some panel alignment issues that leave it sub-optimal.
On Wolfgang's screen , obviously any SIM unit is out of the question anyway.

I think each has it's place. The Barco requires an enclosure for noise and is twice the size or the HT 5000 not to mention twice the cost.

What projector are you using in your theater ?


Art

If one wants perfect rec 709 color NO UHP Projector cuts it. The Barco's newr .98 chip is harder to converge than the previous, but at leat it is convergeable. The Sim2's are not re-convergeable.

True the Barco needs a projection enclosure for the sound, but the contrast ratio can come close to 5,000-1, (4,000 to 1 was easily achieved). Given the far superior presentation of the Barco at 4,000-1 than the SIM at 6,000-1 is a good compromise.

If one wants perfect rec 709 color NO UHP Projector cuts it. The Barco's newr .98 chip is harder to converge than the previous, but at leat it is convergeable. The Sim2's are not re-convergeable.

True the Barco needs a projection enclosure for the sound, but the contrast ratio can come close to 5,000-1, (4,000 to 1 was easily achieved). Given the far superior presentation of the Barco at 4,000-1 than the SIM at 6,000-1 is a good compromise.

I'll put my SIM panel alignment against your Barco. Have you measured over 4000:1 if so I'd like to see the numbers.I've measured over 6000:1 with mutiple methods with my SIM.

Peter,pick a corner take this picture then post it.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/Focus08a.jpg

Art

for the color changes during a movie, it should be known, that first of all if the camera is a digital one it needs proper white balance adjustments for every take. Considering that motion pictures are shot at various locations and the equipment usually rented locally there is no real consistency as everyone can imagine. Second motion pictures in post processing are usually color corrected before being transferred to digital media. probably still done with digital shots but I am not sure about this. Then it must no be that all parts of the motion picture are post processed by the same company, I can imagine that they give parts of the movie to different companies to speed things up.
Anyway I cannot go to cinemas since many years because the green push they have is killing me. I was always thinking this was coming from worn out bulbs but it might be the screen material as well.
I will be checking Wolfgangs new projector any time soon and do not expect anything but the best picture I have ever seen. Wolfgang acutally has the hands on experience many forum members are missing that is why his information is the most valuable. And even spending fortunes on equipment he has an open critical opinion to his own gear - hard to be found this attitude.

All this guy Roser from SIM does is exclaim how they are breaking every sales record on the HT5000 because of your support in this forum. You have done it Art. Happy Now? There is a place in videophile hell for people like you...:D

That is soo wrong, that a projector so seriously and endemically flawed as ALL UHP 3 chippers are, indeed more than some others due to the lack of dc3 and or color filtering at the lamp source. That you choose to pick such a piece of crap colorimetrically speaking and by expounding on it's periferal virtues you are able to create such a Capitalistic avalanche.

It is downright ****ing criminal, no ways around it.

I will get you the contrast numbers on the next projector being customized for Prometheus. In addition I will get you a convergence pattern on that one. Helene is being used for work, heavy duty for the next few weeks. Everyone that knows a good image and has seen Helene has commented on it's 70mm film-likeness, that is what counts at the end of the day. Just as the Giant TRINITRON likeness of the HT5000 precludes it from being film-like and is the wrong projector for high end home theater.


Regarding your convergence, it is obvious that yer unit was cherrypicked under a directive from the highest levels at SIM. It paid off it seems.

for the color changes during a movie, it should be known, that first of all if the camera is a digital one it needs proper white balance adjustments for every take. Considering that motion pictures are shot at various locations and the equipment usually rented locally there is no real consistency as everyone can imagine. Second motion pictures in post processing are usually color corrected before being transferred to digital media. probably still done with digital shots but I am not sure about this. Then it must no be that all parts of the motion picture are post processed by the same company, I can imagine that they give parts of the movie to different companies to speed things up.
Anyway I cannot go to cinemas since many years because the green push they have is killing me. I was always thinking this was coming from worn out bulbs but it might be the screen material as well.
I will be checking Wolfgangs new projector any time soon and do not expect anything but the best picture I have ever seen. Wolfgang acutally has the hands on experience many forum members are missing that is why his information is the most valuable. And even spending fortunes on equipment he has an open critical opinion to his own gear - hard to be found this attitude.

No doubt and I'd love to see it as well.You are so right. Wolfgang IMO is the go to guy scraping the sky with projection excellence and integrety.:)

Be sure to understand that despite the fact that I can certainly agree regarding what the Braco can do there may be great alternatives for screens in my size range.

Art

All this guy Roser from SIM does is exclaim how they are breaking every sales record on the HT5000 because of your support in this forum. You have done it Art. Happy Now? There is a place in videophile hell for people like you...:D

That is soo wrong, that a projector so seriously and endemically flawed as ALL UHP 3 chippers are, indeed more than some others due to the lack of dc3 and or color filtering at the lamp source. That you choose to pick such a piece of crap colorimetrically speaking and by expounding on it's periferal virtues you are able to create such a Capitalistic avalanche.

It is downright ****ing criminal, no ways around it.

I will get you the contrast numbers on the next projector being customized for Prometheus. In addition I will get you a convergence pattern on that one. Helene is being used for work, heavy duty for the next few weeks. Everyone that knows a good image and has seen Helene has commented on it's 70mm film-likeness, that is what counts at the end of the day. Just as the Giant TRINITRON likeness of the HT5000 precludes it from being film-like and is the wrong projector for high end home theater.


Regarding your convergence, it is obvious that yer unit was cherrypicked under a directive from the highest levels at SIM. It paid off it seems.

You flatter me ! I wish I had that kind of influence. Peter, god damn it, when are you going to get Helene done so I can come down and we can have a drink and enjoy your achievement !? I really am looking foward to it.

Art

for the color changes during a movie, it should be known, that first of all if the camera is a digital one it needs proper white balance adjustments for every take. Considering that motion pictures are shot at various locations and the equipment usually rented locally there is no real consistency as everyone can imagine. Second motion pictures in post processing are usually color corrected before being transferred to digital media. probably still done with digital shots but I am not sure about this. Then it must no be that all parts of the motion picture are post processed by the same company, I can imagine that they give parts of the movie to different companies to speed things up.


I generally agree with Uwe's comments, but being angularly involved with the production of the miniseries shot in xd-cam hd and seeing the dailies on the DP1500 Superkontrast, when i first used input 7 hd-sdi with p7 color space, the colors were all over the place. I told the producer , you are going to need a colorist.

The same camera was used to film scenes in Venice and Rome and this time I prepared a macro for rec 709. Lo and behold, this time even diverse color now was presented under a cohesive pallette. That is the precision of the TIP7 calibration system in action.

When watching varied content in rec 709 colorspace in the SuperKontrast I have never had the need to touch up and or recommend the need for a colorist (in the case of dalies), this is the great benefit of the Barco to me
and that is why I was so surpised that Wolfgang has opted for P7 colorspace in his viewing of Casino Royale.

Perhaps in the future bandwith expansion algorithms (8-12 bit video) can exist with the special introduction of an AUTO HUE feature. At the moment I recommend watching rec 709 in rec 709 colorspace.


I will be checking Wolfgangs new projector any time soon and do not expect anything but the best picture I have ever seen. Wolfgang acutally has the hands on experience many forum members are missing that is why his information is the most valuable.

Sorry but been there done that .:D

Speaking of the ht5000 , is a dual bulb version in production?

Yes the dual bulb is in production and I will be able to give some feedback on it in 3-4 weeks. Two are on their way over from Italy as we speak. I cannot wait to see this beast up and running.

-Matt

Two are on their way over from Italy as we speak.

-Matt


Oh no! there goes the neighborhood. [Reaching for high blood pressure medication]:D

Art as soon as AMX sendds me my copy of touch panel designer, which they are injustly holding off on due to some red tape.

Looks like I am going to have to hack into AMX's computer to get it. :D :D :D

Bulbs are what flowers come from... Lamps go in projectors. :)

At the moment I recommend watching rec 709 in rec 709 colorspace.

Funny how when you follow the standards set up by Joe Kane for SMPTE and the industry exactly, you get accurate results!!! :confused: :eek: :D

Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

AMX only allows dealers/certified programmers to have it.

If you are not familiar with it, you will likely just break things. it is nothing like any standard programming language.

They have Job security through obfuscation.

hi Art
no to criticize YOUR HT5000, not my point at all.
(ps lol don't laugh i use currently a Benq W5000 tweaked with an isco on my 171 wide scope (soon curved). and it's very very good compared to machines costing 10-15times more... (and i sell pjs...)
i saw the sim2 2K C3X and was surprised by the lack of punch(calibrated 500lumens)
the HT5000 i saw it at a store with king kong hd: well it was REALLY not well set up nor presented as it should with grey blacks and average brigthness.
my point is this: if someone wants to spend 30-50K on a pj for a large screen with a punchy image, he HAS to look at a lot of machines. and especially the pro ones.
I make a direct correlation between size of screen and ability for an expensive pj to illuminate the big screen with punch: it's a pitty there's virtually no ht machines able to do calibrated 2500lumens in this 30K range, where's still stuck with 500-1200lumens calibrated. the RUNCO 44 does 2600 but costs 100K
JVC will release a 4K for 30-60K (still price undefined) and 3500lumens or so.
that's a machine to consider also (even if ansi CR remains lcos type so half of dlp).
Again when one is ready to 1. spend that much 2. has a big screen (4-7meters), real lumens should be there, available. at 25-30K.
bottom line: the pro machines should be considered and compared. and there is very few in the 25-50K range.
PDesign is to be considered too

no wonder Wolfgang plays with big machines. so far the only ones "able" to deliver once one leaves the typical 10ft screen world.
the issue of cooling noise: non issue in the home cinema configuration typical for this: pj in the technical boot. with acoustic treatment in the boot.
the issue of lamp cost: there resides still a maintenance cost, around$1000-3000 depending on xenon models. that has a cost.
some like PD use twin special UHP lamps, an alternative.

hi Art
no to criticize YOUR HT5000, not my point at all.
(ps lol don't laugh i use currently a Benq W5000 tweaked with an isco on my 171 wide scope (soon curved). and it's very very good compared to machines costing 10-15times more... (and i sell pjs...)
i saw the sim2 2K C3X and was surprised by the lack of punch(calibrated 500lumens)
the HT5000 i saw it at a store with king kong hd: well it was REALLY not well set up nor presented as it should with grey blacks and average brigthness.
my point is this: if someone wants to spend 30-50K on a pj for a large screen with a punchy image, he HAS to look at a lot of machines. and especially the pro ones.
I make a direct correlation between size of screen and ability for an expensive pj to illuminate the big screen with punch: it's a pitty there's virtually no ht machines able to do calibrated 2500lumens in this 30K range, where's still stuck with 500-1200lumens calibrated. the RUNCO 44 does 2600 but costs 100K
JVC will release a 4K for 30-60K (still price undefined) and 3500lumens or so.
that's a machine to consider also (even if ansi CR remains lcos type so half of dlp).
Again when one is ready to 1. spend that much 2. has a big screen (4-7meters), real lumens should be there, available. at 25-30K.
bottom line: the pro machines should be considered and compared. and there is very few in the 25-50K range.
PDesign is to be considered too

no wonder Wolfgang plays with big machines. so far the only ones "able" to deliver once one leaves the typical 10ft screen world.
the issue of cooling noise: non issue in the home cinema configuration typical for this: pj in the technical boot. with acoustic treatment in the boot.
the issue of lamp cost: there resides still a maintenance cost, around$1000-3000 depending on xenon models. that has a cost.
some like PD use twin special UHP lamps, an alternative.

I'm fairly certain (although not completely so) that on a screen my size ,of say around 14' with both projectors set at about 20fL ,that the properly set up HT 5000 would compare very favorably with the Barco Peter has, failing in some comparisons, winning in others. If I were to go to a 16' wide screen I'd only look at the pro units since it would then be out of the range of the 5000 IMO.

Art

Wolfgang -

Have you heard about or seen this Sony SRX 3D Planetarium, on the big island of Hawaii?

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/SXRD/pdfs/hawaii_planetarium.pdf

Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

by expounding on it's periferal virtues you are able to create such a Capitalistic avalanche.

It is downright ****ing criminal, no ways around it.



I would hardly call panel alignment and sequential contrast peripheral.

Art

If one wants perfect rec 709 color NO UHP Projector cuts it.
This statement is just WRONG!

Among others, the discontinued Samsung SP-H710AE and it's replacement SP-A800B both provide perfect Rec. 709 primaries after calibration.


Ken Whitcomb

i saw the sim2 2K C3X and was surprised by the lack of punch(calibrated 500lumens)

Something very wrong with that number. The average new is arround 1100. Mine were 1120. Dimmed to minimum it was 700. Those are calibrated numbers. I assume the one you saw had some hours on it and was dimmed to minimum. I actually use 2 but the numbers are fairly close.

I can easily achieve 20fL on an 11ft 235 screen. My last check ( last week) was 22fl which is roughly 875lumen, and that lamps got well over 350hrs on it, with the output steady over the last 100hrs.

I don’t know if it makes sense to spend too much time comparing the Barco DP1500 and the Sim2 HT5000. The Barco is designed for a much more demanding application and costs more, although it’s not twice the cost. I do want to provide some more information about some things that have been posted.

The two projectors use different DMDs and the .98” 2048x1080 DMDs used in the Barco may have a higher fill factor, and some other differences that are less important for consumer content. If true, the pixel visibility should be in the 1.0-1.1 screen width range. This, combined with the precise lens movements, allows CIH without an anamorphic lens, with no pixels visible, even for those sitting this close to the screen. The 2.4:1 Barco image in a CIH setup should be significantly better compared to one done with vertical scaling and an anamorphic lens. I am about 90% certain about the higher fill factor. It’s difficult to get this type of information about the digital cinema DMDs. I know that the 1.2” DMD has a higher fill and my information so far is that the 1.2” and .98” fills are the same.

The DMDs in the new Barco models like the DP1500 are mechanically adjustable in three axes. This adjustment is not quite as good as that of the DP100. The adjustment capability means that all units can be brought to the same accuracy limit and one is not at the mercy of the unit to unit variation that all projectors have. The DP100 can be brought to below 1/4 pixel misconvergence, which would be only in the periphery. The comparable DP1500 number is 1/3-1/2 pixel. It’s also a question of time spent, since some of the adjustments interact. With enough time, it’s possible that the DP1500 convergence can be 1/4 pixel, but 1/3 pixel is the probable limit.

Regarding CR, 4500:1 has been done with the DP1500 and 5000:1 seems possible. Once we are past the DMDs, and it seems that the DC4 consumer DMD has about the same CR potential as the .98” digital cinema DMD, the design tradeoffs are the same. The way to get a higher CR is to use apertures in the lens and other locations in the light path. The tradeoff is light output and uniformity. If a projector has higher CR, it usually means that the uniformity is worse. It’s very easy to take the DP1500 to 6500:1 CR, but the uniformity would suffer. It would also be limited to only the smaller lamps because of heat issues, but that’s another subject.

I don’t know if it makes sense to spend too much time comparing the Barco DP1500 and the Sim2 HT5000. The Barco is designed for a much more demanding application and costs more, although it’s not twice the cost. I do want to provide some more information about some things that have been posted.

The two projectors use different DMDs and the .98” 2048x1080 DMDs used in the Barco may have a higher fill factor, and some other differences that are less important for consumer content. If true, the pixel visibility should be in the 1.0-1.1 screen width range. This, combined with the precise lens movements, allows CIH without an anamorphic lens, with no pixels visible, even for those sitting this close to the screen. The 2.4:1 Barco image in a CIH setup should be significantly better compared to one done with vertical scaling and an anamorphic lens. I am about 90% certain about the higher fill factor. It’s difficult to get this type of information about the digital cinema DMDs. I know that the 1.2” DMD has a higher fill and my information so far is that the 1.2” and .98” fills are the same.

The DMDs in the new Barco models like the DP1500 are mechanically adjustable in three axes. This adjustment is not quite as good as that of the DP100. The adjustment capability means that all units can be brought to the same accuracy limit and one is not at the mercy of the unit to unit variation that all projectors have. The DP100 can be brought to below 1/4 pixel misconvergence, which would be only in the periphery. The comparable DP1500 number is 1/3-1/2 pixel. It’s also a question of time spent, since some of the adjustments interact. With enough time, it’s possible that the DP1500 convergence can be 1/4 pixel, but 1/3 pixel is the probable limit.

Regarding CR, 4500:1 has been done with the DP1500 and 5000:1 seems possible. Once we are past the DMDs, and it seems that the DC4 consumer DMD has about the same CR potential as the .98” digital cinema DMD, the design tradeoffs are the same. The way to get a higher CR is to use apertures in the lens and other locations in the light path. The tradeoff is light output and uniformity. If a projector has higher CR, it usually means that the uniformity is worse. It’s very easy to take the DP1500 to 6500:1 CR, but the uniformity would suffer. It would also be limited to only the smaller lamps because of heat issues, but that’s another subject.

So, again, this is what I meant by very careful and regular calibration of these commercial digital projectors to achieve DCI or better specifications consistently.

I personally (out of 130+ DLP installations around the world) have only experienced one installation where I didn't see the pixels, and this was for ALIEN in 2003. I sat in the back of the theater (back row!). But even at this theater, during the next show, I sat at my usual 1.1 screen height, and those little pixels were quite visible.

TI specifications state 91% fill factor for both the 1.2 & .98 DMD DLP Engines!

It was the same experience for me more recently with Blade Runner at the AMC - Times Square in November 2007. But sitting farther back, as long as the calibration and bulb(s) are fresh, we should see STUNNING results like Peter and Wolfgang - as long as the standards of the program source are adhered to.

This is also possible with the SONY SRX DCI Chassis, but requires more time and precision of the calibrator!

Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

I am not surprised that 2048x1080 DLP pixels are visible at 1.1x screen height.

The 1920x1080 DMDs have 89% fill, so the .98" DCI DMD is better and that 20% difference in pixel gap area is significant.

"out of 130+ DLP installations around the world" - ???? There are over 7,000 2k DLP Cinema installations around the world now. There is no projection display technology more stable than DLP. The cinema projectors only get calibrated when they change the lamp and the 'inter-lamp' deviation of calibration is very, very low. Also, what you saw at AMC was 1.2" chips, not .98" in optimal environments - big difference.

I don’t know if it makes sense to spend too much time comparing the Barco DP1500 and the Sim2 HT5000. The Barco is designed for a much more demanding application and costs more, although it’s not twice the cost. I do want to provide some more information about some things that have been posted.

The two projectors use different DMDs and the .98” 2048x1080 DMDs used in the Barco may have a higher fill factor, and some other differences that are less important for consumer content. If true, the pixel visibility should be in the 1.0-1.1 screen width range. This, combined with the precise lens movements, allows CIH without an anamorphic lens, with no pixels visible, even for those sitting this close to the screen. The 2.4:1 Barco image in a CIH setup should be significantly better compared to one done with vertical scaling and an anamorphic lens. I am about 90% certain about the higher fill factor. It’s difficult to get this type of information about the digital cinema DMDs. I know that the 1.2” DMD has a higher fill and my information so far is that the 1.2” and .98” fills are the same.

The DMDs in the new Barco models like the DP1500 are mechanically adjustable in three axes. This adjustment is not quite as good as that of the DP100. The adjustment capability means that all units can be brought to the same accuracy limit and one is not at the mercy of the unit to unit variation that all projectors have. The DP100 can be brought to below 1/4 pixel misconvergence, which would be only in the periphery. The comparable DP1500 number is 1/3-1/2 pixel. It’s also a question of time spent, since some of the adjustments interact. With enough time, it’s possible that the DP1500 convergence can be 1/4 pixel, but 1/3 pixel is the probable limit.

Regarding CR, 4500:1 has been done with the DP1500 and 5000:1 seems possible. Once we are past the DMDs, and it seems that the DC4 consumer DMD has about the same CR potential as the .98” digital cinema DMD, the design tradeoffs are the same. The way to get a higher CR is to use apertures in the lens and other locations in the light path. The tradeoff is light output and uniformity. If a projector has higher CR, it usually means that the uniformity is worse. It’s very easy to take the DP1500 to 6500:1 CR, but the uniformity would suffer. It would also be limited to only the smaller lamps because of heat issues, but that’s another subject.

I'll be interested to see if this is so. I do know that I've heard that getting the panel alignment good enough to eliminate text fringing and fringing on black and white films has been an issue I don't see on mine.

Peter has given up more than half of his light output to get to 24fL on a 12' wide screen. At first he claimed 3000:1 but now says 5000:1. I'd just like to see what he really is getting. To me seeing several projectors at 2000:1 compared to 5000:1 there is an enormous difference in low APL performance.
At least one member who saw Peter's set up said that low APL looked pretty bad.

As far as the tossing out half a million pixels (a 1.6 MP image) and still not getting pixel visibility at 1X height ,that I have to see.

You may well be right on all counts but my experience has been things often don't come up to the talk when I actually see them.

I personally think that it is very good to compare the HT 5000 to the modded Barco. I believe that each has it's place.I want to be sure that if comments are going to be made that this or that device is "the King" that all of it's beauty is discussed but don't leave out the warts.

Art

All I can say is, Wow'!

Art,

I am curious what your source is for DMD alignment of the Barco DP1500(2000). There are not that many residential installations. Since I am thinking of changing to the DP1500, I just researched this very thoroughly and my sources are very good. The DP1500 DMD alignment adjustment capability is clearly not as good as the Barco DP100, but it's good enough to converge to an acceptable level for me and others who are also demanding viewers. I would be very surprised if a representative sample of DP1500s does not match or better the convergence of the same number of HT5000s.

My numbers for CR are from a good source, measured properly with a good instrument. You keep on repeating 2000:1 CR. I don't know where you get this from and it's not accurate for a modified unit.

Regarding the wasted pixels, we have been through that one before. Almost no one has claimed that they see pixel structure at about 1.3x screen width with 1920x1080 16:9 images. That pixel density is exactly the same as a 2.4:1 image of the same width and 1.3x screen width applies also. The 2048x1080 or 1920x1080 image with the digital cinema DMD has a higher pixel density and that 1.3x becomes 1.1x. At 1.1x and higher, the image without an anamorpic lens will look significantly better and measure significantly better, without pixel structure. Those wasted pixels, by themselves, would degrade the image; and the anamorphic lens degrades it more.

Odyssey,

Does this model have an anamorphic 2.35 lens built in?

What kind of foot print (dimensions) does the DP 1500 have? 2.35 lens built in? Price?

Odyssey,

Does this model have an anamorphic 2.35 lens built in?

What kind of foot print (dimensions) does the DP 1500 have? 2.35 lens built in? Price?

Full information is here: http://www.barco.com/corporate/en/products/product.asp?element=3682

There is no anamorphic lens option for the DP1500. Barco has gone away from using an anamorphic lens, like they did with the DP100. The DP1500 has precise motorized lens movements with memory so that you can go among the 1.78:1, 1.85:1 and 2.4:1 formats in a CIH setup with a single command.

The price of a DP1500 with lens is about $75K, without the enhanced contrast and other modifications. There is a significant premium for the modifications and warranty of the modified projector. This requires a lot of knowledge and patience for a successful residential installation. You really need someone like Peter, and he is probably the only one who can do it, to make this work at home. Peter has posted some cost estimates, but I think that they included items like the cinema server, which is needed only for digital cinema content. In any case, Peter's cost estimates seem fair.

I'll be interested to see if this is so. I do know that I've heard that getting the panel alignment good enough to eliminate text fringing and fringing on black and white films has been an issue I don't see on mine.

Peter has given up more than half of his light output to get to 24fL on a 12' wide screen. At first he claimed 3000:1 but now says 5000:1. I'd just like to see what he really is getting. To me seeing several projectors at 2000:1 compared to 5000:1 there is an enormous difference in low APL performance.
At least one member who saw Peter's set up said that low APL looked pretty bad.

As far as the tossing out half a million pixels (a 1.6 MP image) and still not getting pixel visibility at 1X height ,that I have to see.

You may well be right on all counts but my experience has been things often don't come up to the talk when I actually see them.

I personally think that it is very good to compare the HT 5000 to the modded Barco. I believe that each has it's place.I want to be sure that if comments are going to be made that this or that device is "the King" that all of it's beauty is discussed but don't leave out the warts.

Art

As I said before there is a very special place in Videophile's Hell for you Art Sonneborn. I never claimed 3:000-1, 4,360 was clocked in d-cine color space but it was not clocked at rec 709 that should translate to 4,000-1 for the Helene install. This time around I am going far more aggresive on the aperture plate increasing the wattage from 1.6kw, to 2kw, and dropping in the cats eye in the lens so I do believe that 5,000-1 is achievable.

It is very frustrating to go to work when there are petulent ht5000 owners spweing this kind of criminal verbal diareah you seem so disposed to throw the way of progress, it is almost like you are jealous. That you have to preserve this facade of VIDEO COGNOSCENTI when your decicions are those of the VIDEO IGNORAMUS. To me and Odyssey whose optical engineering credentials are impeccable you just look like a clown repeating the same crap over and over. The HT5000 is not a serious video projector becuase of it's uhpo lamp.


Why can't you just let progress be?

The HT5000 is not a serious video projector becuase of it's uhpo lamp.
Here we go again. As I stated before, if a projector cannot do Rec. 709 primaries it has nothing to do with UHP lamps, only filtering. When I look at the native gamut of my Samsung SP-A800B, it exceeds Rec. 709 by a wide margin.

I appreciate the spectral advantages of xenon (I love it in my headlights ;)), but to bash UHP just because it is not appropriate for D-Cinema smacks of elitism.


Ken Whitcomb

Now it's Art's proxy.

Stop spewing the same vherborrea, you and your little numbers are meaningless, first you say a one chip dlp is capable of a decent rec 709 performance, NOT SO if that were the case we would all own one. None of the current and proposed 3 chip dlp's that are based on UHP can even come close to a xenon based rec 709.

Elitism is a small price to pay for general excellence down the line.

There is 3 of us toiling with d-cine, there are 50,000 of you doing every other kind of projection, yet we are right and you are wrong. Either contribute to progress or get out of the way.

"To me and Odyssey whose optical engineering credentials are impeccable you just look like a clown repeating the same crap over and over."

I definitely don't agree with this. Also, I am not an optical engineer. I did design optical systems used in medical imaging applications, but they were fairly simple. I do think that I know enough about optics and objective image evaluation to understand this application well.

Stop spewing the same vherborrea, you and your little numbers are meaningless, first you say a one chip dlp is capable of a decent rec 709 performance, NOT SO if that were the case we would all own one.
First, let me apologize for using "meaningless little numbers" from the SMPTE and NTSC/ATSC standards.

Second, if everyone was impervious to single-chip DLP color separation (rainbow effect), more of us would own one.

Peter, I respect that you strive to advance the state-of-the-art, but to dismiss all other approaches seems totally self-serving. I also don't appreciate the personal attacks.


Ken Whitcomb

Peter, I respect that you strive to advance the state-of-the-art, but to dismiss all other approaches seems totally self-serving.

It is not self serving, I have made a discovery in DCI projectors, the image is many many times superior to projectors costing the same or more from Residential vendors. All othere approaches at the moment are a diservice to the end goal, I am just a messenger.

What you fail to see is that peter does not (in the grand scheme) know that much. He finds a new toy, finds a way to use it and then proclaims its virtues from the rooftops.

Since he does not know enough about it, he then fights back with vitriol since he lacks the technical knowledge to defend what he is saying.

From the Barco right now, to the AMX (which is painful to read about) to whatever else he is going on about.

I know this seems like a personal attack, but this is his MO, and it is getting very very tired.

THe barco is an outstanding projector, it may be one of the best there is today (things change every 8 months or so) but to proclaim all others as shite is just dumb.

If people and friends dont stop crapping on each other this thread will go away. Peter your words are pretty harsh and drives some of the angry replies. Your projector may not be perfect in other installations, no projector is while it may be perfect for your installation. Dont crap on other peoples choice.

Edited..removed my comment about color as it was topic to making my point.

If people and friends dont stop crapping on each other this thread will go away. Peter your words are pretty harsh and drives some of the angry replies. Your projector may not be perfect in other installations, no projector is while it may be perfect for your installation. Dont crap on other peoples choice.
As Ken pointed out your comments about color and UHP are incorrect.

BINGO!!!!!!!!

That you have to preserve this facade of VIDEO COGNOSCENTI when your decicions are those of the VIDEO IGNORAMUS. Peter,

You really should settle down. Speaking of video ignoramuses, are you still pushing the SuperNova? I wonder about anybody's eyes who pushes that thing. Regardless of a price, somebody who understands quality images should pick the screen (or other product) that costs less if it is the one that provides the better images. Do you not see the speckling with the SuperNova? I know you called the High Power are "rag screen" when you were pushing the SuperNova and I wonder about anybody's eyes who who would say the SuperNova looks better than a High Power with proper setup. The High Power pretty much disappears while the SuperNova makes itself known with the speckling (not something quality images should contain). This of course goes to the credibility of the witness who is passing himself off as knowing quality.

--Darin

Either contribute to progress or get out of the way.
Ja, mein führer. And now do something about the poor contrast of these 'superior' DCI projectors.

Since he does not know enough about it, he then fights back with vitriol since he lacks the technical knowledge to defend what he is saying.

From the Barco right now, to the AMX (which is painful to read about) to whatever else he is going on about.

Nothing wrong with trying on new things, had I not started experimenting with the Barco this thread might have not been here.

The AMX thing is a joke, me hacking into AMX, get it.

That the barco installation requires a lot of effort at multiple levels, thAT IS A GIVEN.I make no apology for attemting to extend the remote control for the barco unsuccesfully as per Barco's instructions, and the fact that the memories in a Board went away because of this wire extension. I paid a fortune to the guy that has installed 150 Barco dp100 to extend the umbillical and he too got boged down where I was 2 months ago.

It is very easy for you to comment from a back seat driver approach on the installation without knowing 100% of the factors. It's childlike.

By a factor of 20-40 The Barco is a superior projector to any other three chipper out there at least until the christie 2000-m comes out. The ins and out of what is involved with the projector and the hacking the projector is known by very few people.

These installations are complex and your oversimplifying what is involved does no one any good as surely it will make the installations seem easier/simpler than what they are.Net result unfulfilled expectations.
If that level of complexity was not already there I now have to deal with even more complex contrast enhancing procedures, and the TORUS. I don't claim to be a genious, just someone that takes some risks in attemting the ultimate picture. That the Barco turned out to be such a great projector was in large part PURE LUCK.

Now that that has happened I retain the right to denounce garbage projectors for what they are to my eyes. And in my opinion Fidel Castros "Paredon" should be opened again to rightfully deal with Influencers that take the market down the wrong path.

Peter,

You really should settle down. Speaking of video ignoramuses, are you still pushing the SuperNova? I wonder about anybody's eyes who pushes that thing. Regardless of a price, somebody who understands quality images should pick the screen (or other product) that costs less if it is the one that provides the better images. Do you not see the speckling with the SuperNova? I know you called the High Power are "rag screen" when you were pushing the SuperNova and I wonder about anybody's eyes who who would say the SuperNova looks better than a High Power with proper setup. The High Power pretty much disappears while the SuperNova makes itself known with the speckling (not something quality images should contain). This of course goes to the credibility of the witness who is passing himself off as knowing quality.

--Darin

AREN'T YOU LIKE 3 YEARS LATE OIN THIS ONE, I HAVE NOT ESPOUSED THE SUPERNOVA UNTIL THE LAST ITERATION THAT HAS NO SPARKLIES.

AREN'T YOU LIKE 3 YEARS LATE OIN THIS ONE, I HAVE NOT ESPOUSED THE SUPERNOVA UNTIL THE LAST ITERATION THAT HAS NO SPARKLIES.Not true. You were pushing the first SuperNova. I pointed out that if it really had 2.0 gain like they claimed and it was angular-reflective then it would hotspot. And was right, the hotspotting was really bad with the kind of viewing ratios we are talking about here. I pointed out how retro-reflective with high gain is not the same and you argued with me, defending the SuperNova that you were pushing. You decided to try to defend the SuperNova and put down my statements about the hotspotting issue by claiming the was something wrong with comparing the SuperNova to the High Power, since you claimed the High Power was a "rag screen" which made me wonder how much of a videophile you could actually be. Especially after seeing the SuperNova. I got one of the early samples of the screen they shipped and you will still out there as a supporter for it at the time I saw the sparklies and verified the hotspotting problem (through measurements since the sample was small) and reported them to people. So, please don't try to claim you weren't pushing it when it first came out when you were doing that exact thing here.

It is elitists who care more about supporting the more expensive product than image quality who would have a problem with comparing the hotspotting issue between the SuperNova and the High Power, where the High Power kills it in that area with reasonable viewing ratios and proper setup. At least IMO. :)

There are no perfect screens (the High Power isn't either), but if one person is going to calling others video ignoramuses it helps if they haven't shown themselves to be one with respect to a product they were pushing.

--Darin

Not true. You were pushing the first SuperNova. I pointed out that if it really had 2.0 gain like they claimed and it was angular-reflective then it would hotspot. And was right, the hotspotting was really bad with the kind of viewing ratios we are talking about here. I pointed out how retro-reflective with high gain is not the same and you argued with me, defending the SuperNova that you were pushing. You decided to try to defend the SuperNova and put down my statements about the hotspotting issue by claiming the was something wrong with comparing the SuperNova to the High Power, since you claimed the High Power was a "rag screen" which made me wonder how much of a videophile you could actually be. Especially after seeing the SuperNova. I got one of the early samples of the screen they shipped and you will still out there as a supporter for it at the time I saw the sparklies and verified the hotspotting problem (through measurements since the sample was small) and reported them to people. So, please don't try to claim you weren't pushing it when it first came out when you were doing that exact thing here.



You are right there I'll give you that, I had taken the excellent performance of the DNP rear screens with which I was involved in 2004-2005 and taken the enthusiatic claims by Henrik Mikkelssen of DNP who promised no hot spot.

Mea culpa. The Supernova is fine now though.

That is very different to my current experience engineering custom modded Barco's, one was on an upcoming product the other I am toiling with. The Supernova was an educated guess, the barco is a Home run 50 times better than expected type of phenomenom.

The Barco is the finest possible image you can have in 2.40 aspect ratio, shure sequential on/off improvements to it are welcomed, sure ac cessing the convergence board to fine tune it is great, but the overall projection presentation is a new benchmark. In particular the color autocalibration thing is freaky good.

Look I am not opposed to the image of an rs2 as "wrong as it may be under a scope" I am just completely opposed to any non dci 3 chip dlp currently being marketed and also I hate this company from Norway that is long on spec and short on delivery.

uhp works fine on lcos but does not work in 3 dlp, and out of all the 3dlp's that are entirely unacceptable to me the HT5000 takes the cake as the least competent due to lack of filtering of the lamp and or dc4 chip.

You are right there I'll give you that, I had taken the excellent performance of the DNP rear screens with which I was involved in 2004-2005 and taken the enthusiatic claims by Henrik Mikkelssen of DNP who promised no hot spot.

Mea culpa. The Supernova is fine now though.

That is very different to my current experience engineering custom modded Barco's, one was on an upcoming product the other I am toiling with. The Supernova was an educated guess, the barco is a Home run 50 times better than expected type of phenomenom.

The Barco is the finest possible image you can have in 2.40 aspect ratio, shure sequential on/off improvements to it are welcomed, sure ac cessing the convergence board to fine tune it is great, but the overall projection presentation is a new benchmark. In particular the color autocalibration thing is freaky good.

Look I am not opposed to the image of an rs2 as "wrong as it may be under a scope" I am just completely opposed to any non dci 3 chip dlp currently being marketed and also I hate this company from Norway that is long on spec and short on delivery.

uhp works fine on lcos but does not work in 3 dlp, and out of all the 3dlp's that are entirely unacceptable to me the HT5000 takes the cake as the least competent due to lack of filtering of the lamp and or dc4 chip.

Peter ,
I think you would be well served in your quest and your work by finding it in youself to let the install do the talking. I'm flabergasted that after this many years you still feel it to be necessary to name call,exaggerate,and slam others and their choices as a misguided means of improving the perception of your choices and work. Wolfgang never does this nor does Odyssey.

There really are folks like me rooting for you to be a success, I for one just don't like getting repaid for that with your style of communication.

It is strange how you can go for quite some time without that MO then suddenly you start the hyperbole and vitriol.

Just letting you know that I feel that you add a lot to the forum so I hate to see your credibility diminished so by the style of communication.

Like I've said a half dozen times ,I'm looking foward to seeing your work.

Art

Let's get back to Wolfgang, and his fantastic, newly enhanced 3D extravaganza :-)


Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

Let's get back to Wolfgang, and his fantastic, newly enhanced 3D extravaganza :-)


Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

+1

Art

I would like to watch Shark Attack 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nzd0R_OeOc)in wolfgang's theater.

I would like to watch Shark Attack 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nzd0R_OeOc)in wolfgang's theater.

In 3D.

I'm pretty sure I'd even enjoy watching paint peel in that theater.:o:D

Art

I think that Wolfgang has better things to do for the next three weeks than hang out here. In the meantime, if anyone has questions, answers are possible. I am sure that no one will be insulted, even if I have to do some serious harm to someone.

Some of this reads like we are back in Kindergarden :D

Incidentally for optimum installation the BARCO needs three portholes. One for the lens, one for setup, and one for convergence adjustment. The laptop has proven to be a great way of controlling and monitoring but in reality7 out of 10 times you are going to have the room finished, the projector and screen sited but the network will not be ready as the rest of the house could still be under construction, or whatever many other reasons.

http://cineramax.com/CES_2008/Prometheus9.jpg

Peter:

Wouldn't it be better to have the port holes for adjustment/ and or convergence right above the port hole for lens so that the adjuster/calibrator could see exactly what is being adjusted/calibrated/converged ?

How can you see that it is converged from 25' away ? I still like that voice of God surround set up.
Art

How can you see that it is converged from 25' away ?

Art

Binoculars:)

Or knowing Peter, he probably uses the Hubble telescope.:rolleyes:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2482.JPG
Lon the setup controls a would be on the touchscreen and input panel. So the left porthole is at arm length of these adjustments. The right porthole is compromised a bit to preserve design symmetry, but for convergence you need to access this side, where the light green plastic is.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_0240.JPG

In Prometheus the projector is hanging from the rafters inside a drop ceiling above a hallway, there is no space above or below the projector.

sweet.

OK my customer has the enthusiasm and money to want a "3D ready" projection system. Screen size will probably be 12' wide.Possibly wider. 2.35 ratio
Not until late this year or early next year. Will there be any other options beside the modified Barco?
Actually it is kind of interesting that since 1980 or so it seems every Barco I worked with seemed to have some kind of problem? Wolfgang's story about the 37 pin reminded(vaguely) me of the issues we ran into. Kind of like an old Fiat :)
Presumbably they are much better now.

The Barco 3D capability is for the digital cinema 3D format. Wolfgang is using a custom built PC and interface box for his own 3D content and I am sure that he will provide the details when he comes back. I don't know what 3D content is coming for consumers and what's required on the projector side. Wolfgang probably knows this also.

Regarding reliability and Barco service for the DCI projectors, we have only a sample of three. Peter has a DP1500, Wolfgang has a DP2000, and I have a DP100. I believe that Peter has not had any unusual problems, except for the failed attempt to lengthen the touchpanel cable. Wolfgang had several problems, some of which may be shipment shock related. The connector pin mixup is inexcusable. I have the longest experience here, four years, and the only problem has been a coolant pump failure two years ago. The most important aspect of all of this is how quickly Barco resolves problems, and I think that even Wolfgang is satisfied with what they have done.

OK my customer has the enthusiasm and money to want a "3D ready" projection system. Screen size will probably be 12' wide.Possibly wider. 2.35 ratio
Not until late this year or early next year. Will there be any other options beside the modified Barco?

You have a few choices. I have owned my Sony SRX-R110 for almost two years now; and it uses Sony's Proprietary reflective LCOS variation. It is great for 2D, particularly in it's color accuracy, transparency, and impact, but to do 3D requires two projectors and critical, regular alignment and calibration - otherwise the two eye views will not match. The advantages are twice the light and four times the potential resolution (4k vs. 2k) - depending upon media.

Wolfgang was previously using two Christie 2K projectors, which are DLP, to produce great 3D still slide shows. But he has now upgraded to the single Barco DP2000, a three .98" chip DLP projector, and seems genuinely much happier for the upgrade - at least half the headaches.

Finally, there is NEC, which produces a similar product to Christie and Barco, also using DLP technology. It is the projector of choice for all Dolby Digital 3D Theaters!

What programming is your customer thinking of watching, either in 2D or 3D? That would help determine which of those choices would work best for your client.

Cheers -

Jeremy

The Kipnis Studios


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

Can one 4K projector act as 2 [1080P] projectors ( with the help of a 3-D processor) to obtain 3-D? Or why are 2 projectors required? Could one 4K substitute? 2 projectors aren't practical for any home solution, so what will the market do for 3-D at home??

Jeremy, the NEC d-cinema projector is not LCOS it is DLP. I don't have exact numbers but I would say that Barco has as many as NEC 3D installs with Christie having the most with Real-D.

Can one 4K projector act as 2 [1080P] projectors ( with the help of a 3-D processor) to obtain 3-D? Or why are 2 projectors required? Could one 4K substitute? 2 projectors aren't practical for any home solution, so what will the market do for 3-D at home??

Wolfgang is doing 3D with a single projector.

Art

You can't divide the resolution of a 4K projector for lower resolution 3D because the images have to be superimposed. At this time, only the .98" digital cinema DMD is fast enough to do 3D at full 2048x1080 resolution at full refresh rate with a single projector.

I suspect that whatever is coming for consumer 3D will be a gimmick and nowhere close to what's now available in digital cinema. I have not seen it, but all the credible reports I have read are very favorable.

I saw a short 3D presentation (about 40 minutes)) in Chicago calle Fly to the Moon. It was using DLP and looked good but it was amazing how fast the 3D lost it's appeal in just a few minutes. Yes glass pieces coming at me,flies moving out from the screen etc was fun at first but it just seemed to not add much after a while.

Art

I think DPI has projectors the do 3D now

You have a few choices. I have owned my Sony SRX-R110 for almost two years now. It is great for 2D, particularly in it's color accuracy, transparency, and impact, but to do 3D requires two projectors and critical, regular alignment and calibration - otherwise the two eye views will not match. The advantages are twice the light and four times the potential resolution (4k vs. 2k) - depending upon media.

Wolfgang was previously using two Christie 2K projectors to produce great 3D effects. But he has now upgraded to the single Barco DP2000, and seems genuinely much happier for the upgrade - at least half the headaches.

Finally, there is NEC, which produces a similar product to Christie and Barco, but using LCOS technology. It is the projector of choice for all Dolby Digital 3D Theaters!

What programming is your customer thinking of watching, either in 2D or 3D? That would help determine which of those choices would work best for your client.

Cheers -

Jeremy

The Kipnis Studios


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

Our client likes to get the latest and greatest,but also knows there is something else on the horizon asking you to upgrade prematurely.
It would seem that 3D for the home would be next? Not sure what Wolfgang is ultimately up to? It caught my attention anyway.
Another thread somewhere had a link to a DPI projector with 3D mentioned as an attribute.
I really like the idea of eliminating the anamorphic lens as well. It is pretty easy to see the loss of contrast and geometric distortion they add to the image.
Thanks

It is pretty easy to see the loss of contrast and geometric distortion they add to the image.

Im guessing you've seen some less than ideal installs.

Im guessing you've seen some less than ideal installs.

We just completed a big rear projection 2.35. There is a thread about it on the 2.35 forum. DPI, ISCO, Starglas are the major components.I attached a photo.
The image is really great displaying Bluray 2.35. Everyone is blown away. I do note however, that when switching from viewing a release letterboxed on the 1.78 image to the lens stretched 2.35, the contrast is slightly reduced. At least to my eye. I assume it is the lens? At these price points it would be nice to get that contrast back. The lens produces an obvious "Bowtie" geometric distortion as well. Very noticeable with a crosshatch pattern, not so much with program material.I believe the "curved" screen systems are partially designed to minimize the "Bowtie".
I would guess a more ultimate set up would be like the Barco with Zoom and focus macros etc. eliminating the lens.
Probably being picky? I guess it is part of my job :)

Im assuming as its RP then the throw is short. At normal recommended throws for an ISCOIII pincushion is minimal. I had a 14ft screen and pincushion was undetectable, others are the same.

Yep, we are using a short throw lens on the DPI. Two mirror Stewart light path As you say,probably exaggerating the geometric distortion.
I also thought the focus was slightly compromised when compared to the projector's lens by itself. We did spent quite a bit of time with the experienced DPI rep getting the best focus we could.
It just seems a little "hokey" to have lens sitting in front of another lens, with a space in between? The integrated Barco system seems more elegant. At least when money is not a concern. I have not read all I could on the subject,but it would seem better optical solutions are in the future?
Wolfgang isn't using one on his state of the art system!

Why don't PJ manufacturers for high end units just add a 2.35 lens option? I don't get it. Anything worth seeing these days is 2.35.... Why are we stuck with adding appendage lenses like the ISCO when many at the high end will spend $50K for a machine?

Because the lens and the lens handling technology did not exist until this past year.

Still there are very few options in the throw distance, you need a 2.1 throw minimum.

It is not very practical for home theater. In the future it will happen with shorter throw lens. The new christie 2000m has significantly more options in the lensing than the barco -they call it ILS intelligent lens system but the extra lens throws are still in the long range I believe.

Barco really needs to come up with a Servo Lens 2kw on an even smaller DCI chassis that can be fed by dual 20 amp 120volt feeds and with a quieter cooling system but still have access to the lightpipe for aperture reduction. But it must be DCI compliant.

Perhaps they can use the chasis of this projector:

http://www.barco.com/projection_systems/images/NH-12-prelim-bg.jpg

Why don't PJ manufacturers for high end units just add a 2.35 lens option? I don't get it. Anything worth seeing these days is 2.35.... Why are we stuck with adding appendage lenses like the ISCO when many at the high end will spend $50K for a machine?

The problem is that you need two optical magnifications and a single anamorphic lens optimized for 2.35:1 will severely compromise 1.77:1 performance. Some of my best and most interesting content is 1.77:1. If you want to have a CIH setup, the best way to do it is with a single normal lens using precise lens movements with memory, like the Barco DP1500. This will provide the highest contrast and the sharpest image. The exception would be if you sit very close and with the digital cinema .98" DMD fill factor, that's about less than 1.1x screen width. Art's seating distance is about .83x screen width and he would see pixel structure without the vertical scaling and softening from the anamorphic lens.

Odyssey,

What cost would a single lens with memory cost? Is it too expensive to be able to keep a projector at the $50K price point? Don't get me wrong I am very pleased with the ISCO III / Cineslide, but a built-in anamorphic lens seems like the next step for the high end....

Thread cleaned up, please keep on topic.

Odyssey,

What cost would a single lens with memory cost? Is it too expensive to be able to keep a projector at the $50K price point? Don't get me wrong I am very pleased with the ISCO III / Cineslide, but a built-in anamorphic lens seems like the next step for the high end....

Most 3 chip designs already have the required lens movements and need only a way to go between preset positions. It may be as simple as replacing the motors with stepping types and a bit of software. Even the most extensive redesign would be a fraction of the cost of a high quality anamorphic lens and motorized sled. One limitation is that the required zoom positions would have to be in the lens range for the throw distance used, so more lens options would have to be offered for some projectors.

to bad this thread need this clean up:mad:

some people here say that the fill ratio is better with the cinema chips.

that i may right for the 1920x1080 vs the old 1.2" dmds but not the
new cinema dmd with 0.98" at least i cant see any difference at
all when i compare my chiristie hd6 k that was based on the
1920x1080 dmd and the barco dp 2000 with the 0.98" cinema chips.

i can see the pixels or better the gabs from 1.0 the screen wide from
both units.
no difference at least i cant see it and therefore it cant be a big one.
if there is one.

Wolfgang,

We were going by Jeremy's information that the .98" and 1.2" 2048x1080 DMDs are the same, both with 91% fill. I know that the 1920x1080 DMD is 89% fill and that's a 20% difference in gap area. Jeremy's information is also confirmed by our friend in Belgium, although he did not have the actual numbers.

i can see the pixels or better the gabs from 1.0 the screen wide from
both units.
no difference at least i cant see it and therefore it cant be a big one.
if there is one.

Mayer you run a 235:1 screen. When you say you see the pixel structure at 1x is that in 16x9 mode or when zooming to 235:1 or using the Isco 3 at 235:1?

odyssey

i can only say that i not saw any difference when i compare the christie with the
1920x1080 dmds and the barco with the 2048x1080 dmd so it cant be that big
difference.

alan
i can see screen door from both units at "1.1-1.0 times the picture wide in distance".
i beginn to see the gabs at about 1.1 to 1.05 times in disctance.
as screen door is a issue that is very depends i have to say that most people saw
my old pr. not see at 1.1 times the screen wide the gabs.
most beginn to see it at 0.9 times the picture wide in distance.

lcos is much better here.
no screen door for ME till i get not close than 0,8 times the screen wide.
but i not think that it is very nice to sit that close to the screen.
no one in a cinema like to sit that close!

when i can do my cinema one more time i will desingn it to have the first sit at
1.2 times the picture wide in distance and not 1.05.
but this will change when we will get 4k.
than i like to sit 0,8 times the screen wide in distace:)

odyssey

i can only say that i not saw any difference when i compare the christie with the
1920x1080 dmds and the barco with the 2048x1080 dmd so it cant be that big
difference.

alan
i can see screen door from both units at "1.1-1.0 times the picture wide in distance".
i beginn to see the gabs at about 1.1 to 1.05 times in disctance.
as screen door is a issue that is very depends i have to say that most people saw
my old pr. not see at 1.1 times the screen wide the gabs.
most beginn to see it at 0.9 times the picture wide in distance.

lcos is much better here.
no screen door for ME till i get not close than 0,8 times the screen wide.
but i not think that it is very nice to sit that close to the screen.
no one in a cinema like to sit that close!

when i can do my cinema one more time i will desingn it to have the first sit at
1.2 times the picture wide in distance and not 1.05.
but this will change when we will get 4k.
than i like to sit 0,8 times the screen wide in distace:)

I want to put an apology to you in YOUR THREAD tonight if you don't mind.

I've really enjoyed this thread immensely. To be able to show your screen size and make a valid arguement for your decision is very respectable from my point of view and I as well as many others here at AVS respect you for what you have accomplished.

GREAT JOB!

Cliff

cliff

its much work for me to write all in english and some time the guys here not
100% understand everything because of my english.

most of the time i test things before i write some statements from others that ""i hear""
down here.
also i am not a dealer and i have not any finacal interrest to post things here.

i am right now with a jvc rs1 pr. and i can see the pro and con about dlp/lcos
very nice.

thank you for your nice words!

wolfgang

I have done some research and it seems that the .95" 1920x1080 DMD fill factor is probably 87% and not the 89% I posted. I don't have absolute confirmation of the .98" and 1.2" 2048x1080 DMD fill factors.

cliff

its much work for me to write all in english and some time the guys here not
100% understand everything because of my english.
wolfgang

As long as you don't use too many Baierische worter, German would be fine by me;-).

I definitely agree with Cliff. You have been along time inspiration for all of us. I particularly appreciate how you tell it how it is regarding your findings. Those of us who may have more modest goals can trust and use the information to help us make good decisions.

As Cliff said, keep up the great work !:)

Art

I definitely agree with Cliff. You have been along time inspiration for all of us. I particularly appreciate how you tell it how it is regarding your findings. Those of us who may have more modest goals can trust and use the information to help us make good decisions.

As Cliff said, keep up the great work !:)

Art

I Third That!!!


Cheers -

Jeremy


www.Kipnis-Studios.com

thanks art.

i like to share with people like you and some others such things and
i spend the time because i know some people at avs trust me.

its not always that easy because companys like barco and chrisite and
many others are reading here and they only like my post
when i say good things about there product but when i
say bad things about this product they not like it.
also some times i get not any new information in advance
because they think i will post it here before they like to get this info
out to the market but i never do this.
i know what i can post at a public forum and what not.

""As long as you don't use too many Baierische worter, German would be fine by me;-).""

yes i will try to not use them:)

These shots are amazing. Absolutely incredible.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2562.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2556.jpg

Now THAT is how it should be done with a 3 chipper of that caliber.

I have to ask if you don't mind, what is your comfortable level of foot lamberts on a screen that size?

Cliff

As long as you don't use too many Baierische worter, German would be fine by me;-).


Sie muessen mehr Bier drinken, und dann werden Sie Deutsch sprechen..:)

( I think I wrote that correctly, it's been... years...:o)

the screen shots was made at full light at about 62 ftl:)

i runn the pr. at arround 35 ftl.and i and all the people saw this
picture agree with me that this is very nice.

after have this high lumen pr. there is may no way back
to below 15 ftl for me.

in the past with one qualia and a isco3 i have just 5 ftl with a new lamp
and i feel that is ok.

as i get later the christie hd6k i runn most of the time at good 20 ftl.
later as i get used to that level i fell below 20 ftl ist looks not anymore that nice.

both guys that purchase my 2 christie hd6k have a much smaller screen.
one have just 3m the othere one 4.2m so they can have even more than
60 ftl on there screen.
both told me they runn it arround 40 ftl and feel very ok with it.
one have a not light controled room so he cant have enough light
on the screen.

the screen shots was made at full light at about 62 ftl:)
i runn the pr. at arround 35 ftl.and i and all the people saw this
picture agree with me that this is very nice.
after have this high lumen pr. there is may no way back
to below 15 ftl for me.

I'm sure it looks great with daylight material. But with dark material the black level is very elevated.

More pixels than D-cinema projectors....4k DLP on its way???

Texas Instruments DLP(R) Group Produces the First Wide UXGA Chip for Superior Resolution in Data Projection
Tuesday May 13, 3:00 am ET
Norwegian high-performance projector manufacturer, projectiondesign is first to market with WUXGA resolution projectors


DALLAS, May 13 /PRNewswire/ -- DLP® Products from Texas Instruments (TI) (NYSE: TXN - News) introduced the world's first WUXGA DLP chip for the WUXGA data projector that produces the highest resolution images at a native resolution of 1,920 x 1,200 pixels in a 16:10 aspect ratio on the market today. This projector runs on DLP's .95 chip, a resolution that has yet to be offered by any of competitors of DLP® Products. This new level of superior imaging has become the perfect fit to enable projector manufacturers to reproduce widescreen computer resolutions.
ADVERTISEMENT


(Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20080513/LATU066)

"While 1080p has been widely regarded as the top shelf standard for resolution quality and use for video-centric applications like HDTVs, we recognized that select businesses could stand to benefit more with pixel qualities that surpassed even that of 1080," said Anders Lokke, International Marketing & Communications Manager at projectiondesign. "WUXGA is incorporated inside our F10 WUXGA and F30 WUXGA projectors. This was something that our high-end visualization and simulation customers were asking for and we are proud to be the first to introduce and to deliver it to the market."

WUXGA is a popular resolution for high-performance desktop monitors and notebook computers, enabling users to match their projector resolution to their monitor resolution. Some commentators believe that it may be the resolution of choice in many industries that demand the highest performance. With more color performance and wide-screen resolution choices, there is a growing demand for higher quality images.

Jason Brameld, Senior Audio-Visual Design Consultant at Mark Johnson Consultants Ltd in the United Kingdom has reviewed the F30 WUXGA projector from projectiondesign which incorporates the new Texas Instruments' WUXGA resolution. He says, "WUXGA resolution and the F30 WUXGA projector caught our eye when it was first shown by projectiondesign at Integrated Systems Europe in January 2008. It immediately struck us as being a very good projector for high-resolution computer applications and it offers more of a computer centric resolution rather than the more typically video centric resolution of 1920 x 1080 offered by the other major manufacturers."

We'd definitely use the F30 WUXGA projector for computer based applications and corporate use. It's ideal for software demonstrations as well as visualization and any application involving display of fine detail or analysis of large amounts of data. This we believe is more of a specialized market and is ideal for corporate companies who can utilize the more specialist graphics capabilities without the need for scaling to 1080 resolution."

The industry is continually migrating towards higher quality resolution. Laptops are displaying wider screens as fields such as scientific visualization, computer imaging and simulation markets are benefiting from WUXGA technology as well.

"We listened to our customers and heard loud and clear the need for greater resolution. We are the first company to market this technology and we applaud projectiondesign for being the first to unveil their F10 and F30 WUXGA series projectors," said Lars Yoder, vice president and business manager, TI's DLP Front Projection Business Unit.

More DLP manufacturers will offer WUXGA projectors in the future

I'm sure it looks great with daylight material. But with dark material the black level is very elevated.

as i post early dark seq. looks very very good.
surprising good.

no need to play with numbers here.
some 10 people that saw my new set up think the same as you
but i convice them in 10 sec.
and they all shack there head and ask why that can looks so good.

and they all shack there head and ask why that can looks so good.

Maybe the screen size has something to do with it. ;)

The larger you go and the further away the projector is from the screen, I would think your blacks would actually be pretty good?

Cliff

More pixels than D-cinema projectors....4k DLP on its way???

Texas Instruments DLP(R) Group Produces the First Wide UXGA Chip for Superior Resolution in Data Projection


Going to 1920 x 1200 was a practical necessity, since several laptops and monitors have been there for some time. It's only an 11% increase in pixel count over the 1080p chip and only 4% more pixels than the DC2K chips. So, wafer yields should be quite acceptable. That's a long way from 4K, which has four times the pixels! Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. (But it's a nice wish! :) )

UXGA

I only see this practical for PC use. I dont see how we would scale 1080 content to this format.
Now two of these side by side for a super scope blend system ....maybe!

UXGA

I only see this practical for PC use. I dont see how we would scale 1080 content to this format.
Now two of these side by side for a super scope blend system ....maybe!
Yea ,this seems pretty much to be of no interest for the HT enthusiast side of things.

Art

Sie muessen mehr Bier drinken, und dann werden Sie Deutsch sprechen..:)

( I think I wrote that correctly, it's been... years...:o)

Infinitively more beer shall not make me speak German:D. Was rather poor at German in high school (all that repetitive practicing of grammar, and they have a lot of it), so dropped it as soon as I could, so only had two years of German, but still understand it quite well, having grown up on Derrick and der alte Der Alte;-). Don't use (or get a chance to speak/write) any German, as the Germans I meet all start speaking (fairly) good English as soon as you meet them.

BTW, drinken is Dutch trinken is German;-).

Well I spoke German before I spoke English, but that was a few decades ago. I was in Germany in 1975 which I think was the last time I went, and I agree, everthing there was Genglish..:)

as i post early dark seq. looks very very good.
surprising good.
no need to play with numbers here.
some 10 people that saw my new set up think the same as you
but i convice them in 10 sec.
and they all shack there head and ask why that can looks so good.

I would leave unconvinced because numbers don't lie in this regard. Your only hope is that the bright parts fool the eye to think elevated gray looks black. That works with brights scenes and some mixed scenes. It does not work with other mixed scenes and dark scenes if you know how it can look with real blacks (many people don't).
Fact is your black level is very conservatively estimated 20 times higher than mine and mine is not yet good enough for what I want so how convinced can I be? :)

I would leave unconvinced because numbers don't lie in this regard. Your only hope is that the bright parts fool the eye to think elevated gray looks black. That works with brights scenes and some mixed scenes. It does not work with other mixed scenes and dark scenes if you know how it can look with real blacks (many people don't).
Fact is your black level is very conservatively estimated 20 times higher than mine and mine is not yet good enough for what I want so how convinced can I be? :)


its again the same discussion with you theory numbers and........
i will not go gain into this again.
we had that long time ago.

it to time comsuming for nothing.

so if i cant convinced you thats ok no problem.

Here is my photographs of Casino Royale, don't laugh. :D :D :D

The AF on the lens has 2 settings one with a flower, I took that out. Need to use the flower the next time.

Peter, your screen shots do not count, as you are not in the picture. Only when you make the same as Wolfang did they can be accepted. So get yourself on small ladder in Helene and make a big smile, will you ? :D

I actually had one shot with my finger shadow puppet standing on the corner, in anticipation of this kind of rigorous response.;)

Peter the flower is the symbol for macros, pictures taken very close. Leave that off.

so if i cant convinced you thats ok no problem.
You have seen enough in your life that you know yourself that your blacks are sometimes far from optimal. You just put up with it because you have this huge screen to fill and sharp and bright DLPs have their advantages too. Nobody denies that. Denying the problems does not make them inexistant, though. They are real and quite visible.

You have seen enough in your life that you know yourself that your blacks are sometimes far from optimal. You just put up with it because you have this huge screen to fill and sharp and bright DLPs have their advantages too. Nobody denies that. Denying the problems does not make them inexistant, though. They are real and quite visible.

no question that 4000 or 5000:1 is better that my good 2000:1 that i have
and i was looking to get it in my pr.
i only need a iris that can take the heat from a 4000watt xenon
and it need to be switch on off from outside as the location is deep inside
the light pad.
sounds easy but on one did it before because its not easy at all.

what i like to bring here up was that all the people that saw the unit
and there was also some crt guys they can not belive that this unit have
just arround 2400:1 cr.
when i ask them the sady it looks like 5000:1 or more and that is also
how i see it.

I will say this with high ANSI and a lot of light it definitely makes a difference.It allows a lot more pleasing picture than I would have ever expected. With yours Wolfgang you have more ANSI and double the light off the screen at least. I mean it would be great if we could have all the great things 3 chip DLP does and 100,000:1 FF CR but it still throws an incredible picture.

Art

...... I mean it would be great if we could have all the great things 3 chip DLP does and 100,000:1 FF CR but it still throws an incredible picture.How can we achieve those attributes, that is the question.....

You have seen enough in your life that you know yourself that your blacks are sometimes far from optimal. You just put up with it because you have this huge screen to fill and sharp and bright DLPs have their advantages too. Nobody denies that. Denying the problems does not make them inexistence, though. They are real and quite visible.This my friend..... is the quote of the year !

You have to understand that sometime ego can over-ride all reality and science

No doubt and I'd love to see it as well.You are so right. Wolfgang IMO is the go to guy scraping the sky with projection excellence and integrety.:)

Be sure to understand that despite the fact that I can certainly agree regarding what the Braco can do there may be great alternatives for screens in my size range.

Art.....When will you get your DP2000, NEC NC1600, or 2K DLP projector Art ?

How can we achieve those attributes, that is the question.....

Laser. :)

Laser. :)LCoS or DMD

This my friend..... is the quote of the year !

You have to understand that sometime ego can over-ride all reality and science

Obviously you have not seen Wolfgangs projector, and you try to understand it by numbers. That is your shortcoming.

His cinemascope picture is very close to a 70mm presentation, no other projecotr or lens combination has ever achieved that, I clearly credit the projectors extreme ansi number IN CINEMASCOPE for wowing everyone that sees it. Including many a film and television professionals.

Creating a great Image is a mixture of art and science, your collective obsession with on/off contrast ratio is simply not evident in balance here, this is a paradigm shift projector by a long shot, some of you have a problem believing that, in this case it is YOUR EGO that is having an envious response to Wolfgangs auspicious purchase.

Obviously you have not seen Wolfgangs projector, and you try to understand it by numbers. That is your shortcoming.

His cinemascope picture is very close to a 70mm presentation, no other projecotr or lens combination has ever achieved that, I clearly credit the projectors extreme ansi number IN CINEMASCOPE for wowing everyone that sees it. Including many a film and television professionals.

Creating a great Image is a mixture of art and science, your collective obsession with on/off contrast ratio is simply not evident in balance here, this is a paradigm shift projector by a long shot, some of you have a problem believing that, in this case it is YOUR EGO that is having an envious response to Wolfgangs auspicious purchase.

Here we go again.

I only have one thing to say. Actually two, or maybe three.

1. 70MM?????

2. Absolutely NOT.

I will confirm this when I hunt down the first IMAX that goes digital near me.

3. I want you to start a petition of Videophiles in this forum that are willing to state that 35 foot lamberts on a 20 foot wide Cinemascope with 100,000 to one contrast in the proper environment would be inferior to the same with 10,000 to one contrast which has not even been measured by any 3 chip DLP of that magnitude in a home theater environment that I know of.

Heck has it been measured in DCI theaters?

Wolf has done a fantastic job and it shows. This is no insult against him but I'm sure that even he would be willing to agree with me.

Cliff

Hre we go again? Oh boy a young Republican, no wonder...:D

Let's reword it. Everyone professional or laymen alike that has seen the Barcos [except one person that saw it with a thick layer of dust on the lenses and plate glass who lives by the CRT seq. cr. agenda] exclaims how dramatically better it is to what has been shown in the last 4 years cedia, ces, and infocomm. The closest possible thing to this projector unmodified is the 250K Runco sc-1, modified it is the DPI Lighting reference,the SUPREME projector last CEDIA. There were Sony and JVC projectors with 15K-1 at CEDIA but there was no way they came close to the Lighting Reference. I had until last shoeast no projector agenda and have been to most shows for the past 3 years and have also been to 2 hollywood facilities,for screens at this point until I compare the SMX to the Torus (I will be remaining screen agnostic).

Sequential contrast out of the DCI spec. is forbidden by TI in an Iron Clad agreement with the manufacturers.

5k-1( without sacrificing uniformity) and perhaps 6k-1 (sacrificing uniformity with the delta apertures) is as far as you are going to see for a LONG TIME. SO EVERYONE better adjust your thinking there. For those that enjoy this latest Barco and other upcoming .98 dci projector with servo zoom lens the extreme anso contrast delivery of MTF (YES HIGH MTF with propietary gamma =VIRTUAL 70mm).

Soon enough these projectors with the modifications will be available to be seen by those interested in aproximating 70mm at home. In the meantime I don't believe that the Imax and dci theaters are the best way to see these projectors.

Perhaps when/if Art gets to see 2 or 3 of these things in action in one seating then you will accept.

As much as some of you pride yourselves of being ardent videophiles (for movie watching purposes - not anaglyphic photography) the King Of Miami is the most ardent. He is ONE TOUGH CUSTOMER fliying himself on his own transatlantic jet to every show, he has been in every A list private screening room in Hollywood, gets VIP seats at Cannes, and prided himself in his former 100,000seq 11' wide G-90 Torus rig. Wolfgang too had G-90 stacks, so please stop preaching to the choir when you have not seen the other side of the coin.

NO ONE HAS spent more resources, time and effort on this quest than Ugo. Last CEDIA he even told someone at Runco during the vx-55 demo that started presenting their shpeal on Contrast:

Runco: We know contrast we have even developed a new iniciative to measure contrast in our products...

Ugo: Sorry to interrupt but your contrast ain't that high -your blacks here are grey.

At which point they tried to readjust the projector to no avail.

At CEDIA he did prefer the contrast of the DPI units, however the lighting reference was too big, so he had settled for the imperfect color of the Titan Reference.

When I called him and told him that I had something a magnitude better he said "naw".

I told him to prepare himself to seing the finest image he had ever seen. The results were an unqualified endorsement ...

http://cineramax.com/CES_2008/Ugo-Superkontrast.jpg

That says it all... In the meantime I would suggest a forum NEW RULE: That people that want to discuss projectors contrast ratios in excess of 6,500 to 1 please GET OUT OF DODGE.

Since TI DCI spec forbids contrast ratios in excess of 2,000+-10%, and there is a limit to how much this can be modded, IT SERVES NO PURPOSE BUT TO DRAIN VITAL RESEARCH ENERGIES to bring this unrealistic discussions, please keep them on the other 5 forums. It is always the same insensitive people harping on this non reality.

and you try to understand it by numbers. That is your shortcoming.

Sorry Peter, but such "killer phrases" should be exclusiv to high end audio voodoo dealers, cable-listeners and accoustic-ignorants. By the year 2008, we all should have stopped to believe in "wonders" and take matters purely unbiased by what they are.....and most matters can be measured, if not all....so numbers should all our best friends.

The only difference with such numbers is that you e.g. prefer one, say ANSI or Light Source Spectrum, over another. You clearly cannot be serious, when you try to persuade people into "shortcommings", because they do not follow your own preferences, taste or bias.

PS: and really, you should be able to afford an entry level DSLR (Nikon or Canon) for better screen shots ;)

i will give up to tell people here that numbers are important but not tell
the hole story.

it is not strange that all the people saw my set up agree with me and all the
people that not saw the set up post here that numbers are so much important?

sorry but that reminds me when i was 14 years old and get the first amplifer and speakers.
i say more than 30 years ago

"MY SET UP HAS 2X 50 WATT AND I MEAN MY SET UP MUST SOUND BETTER THAN
THE OTHERS BECAUSE THE HAVE ONLY 2X25 WATT"
THAN LATER I UNDERSTAND THAT WATT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH QUALITY BUT THAN I SAY OH MY SOUND SYSTEM CAN PLAY WITH MORE POWER LEVEL THAN YOURS WITH JUST 2X25WATT:
THAN LATER I KNOW THAT THERE A SPEAKERS OUT THAT HAVE WITH 2 WATT MORE
SOUND LEVEL THAN MY SPEAKERS WITH 50 WATT AND SO ON...........

the barco dp 1500 or the dp 2000 with the cr. modification optimised for home cinema only(no 3d) color calibatet is the best pr. you can purchase today.
the secound best is depends on how rate on off cr. and color the sim2 5000 or the
christie hd6 or 8k.
the christie have the better color much more light but only about 2500:1 on off cr. the sim2 have this
high on off cr. (i have measure at the demo at home good 5000:1)but much less light.

but the hole discusion about on off cr.make for many people read here anyway no sense because the have not the right room condition to see more than 2000:1 on off
anyway.
and for those that have the right room like art they should be fine with over 5000:1 on off.
art as you are a doublstack g90 user in the past how you rate now after you have your
sim2 5000 for some time?
did you feel you need to go back to a g 90 stack because of the worse
on off cr. your sim2 have?
if i am not wrong i think you are very pleased with the picture and all in all
you like it more than the g 90 stack right?

Hre we go again? Oh boy a young Republican, no wonder...:D

Let's reword it. Everyone professional or laymen alike that has seen the Barcos [except one person that saw it with a thick layer of dust on the lenses and plate glass who lives by the CRT seq. cr. agenda] exclaims how dramatically better it is to what has been shown in the last 4 years cedia, ces, and infocomm. The closest possible thing to this projector unmodified is the 250K Runco sc-1, modified it is the DPI Lighting reference,the SUPREME projector last CEDIA. There were Sony and JVC projectors with 15K-1 at CEDIA but there was no way they came close to the Lighting Reference. I had until last shoeast no projector agenda and have been to most shows for the past 3 years and have also been to 2 hollywood facilities,for screens at this point until I compare the SMX to the Torus (I will be remaining screen agnostic).

Sequential contrast out of the DCI spec. is forbidden by TI in an Iron Clad agreement with the manufacturers.

5k-1( without sacrificing uniformity) and perhaps 6k-1 (sacrificing uniformity with the delta apertures) is as far as you are going to see for a LONG TIME. SO EVERYONE better adjust your thinking there. For those that enjoy this latest Barco and other upcoming .98 dci projector with servo zoom lens the extreme anso contrast delivery of MTF (YES HIGH MTF with propietary gamma =VIRTUAL 70mm).

Soon enough these projectors with the modifications will be available to be seen by those interested in aproximating 70mm at home. In the meantime I don't believe that the Imax and dci theaters are the best way to see these projectors.

Perhaps when/if Art gets to see 2 or 3 of these things in action in one seating then you will accept.

As much as some of you pride yourselves of being ardent videophiles (for movie watching purposes - not anaglyphic photography) the King Of Miami is the most ardent. He is ONE TOUGH CUSTOMER fliying himself on his own transatlantic jet to every show, he has been in every A list private screening room in Hollywood, gets VIP seats at Cannes, and prided himself in his former 100,000seq 11' wide G-90 Torus rig. Wolfgang too had G-90 stacks, so please stop preaching to the choir when you have not seen the other side of the coin.

NO ONE HAS spent more resources, time and effort on this quest than Ugo. Last CEDIA he even told someone at Runco during the vx-55 demo that started presenting their shpeal on Contrast:

Runco: We know contrast we have even developed a new iniciative to measure contrast in our products...

Ugo: Sorry to interrupt but your contrast ain't that high -your blacks here are grey.

At which point they tried to readjust the projector to no avail.

At CEDIA he did prefer the contrast of the DPI units, however the lighting reference was too big, so he had settled for the imperfect color of the Titan Reference.

When I called him and told him that I had something a magnitude better he said "naw".

I told him to prepare himself to seing the finest image he had ever seen. The results were an unqualified endorsement ...

http://cineramax.com/CES_2008/Ugo-Superkontrast.jpg

That says it all... In the meantime I would suggest a forum NEW RULE: That people that want to discuss projectors contrast ratios in excess of 6,500 to 1 please GET OUT OF DODGE.

Since TI DCI spec forbids contrast ratios in excess of 2,000+-10%, and there is a limit to how much this can be modded, IT SERVES NO PURPOSE BUT TO DRAIN VITAL RESEARCH ENERGIES to bring this unrealistic discussions, please keep them on the other 5 forums. It is always the same insensitive people harping on this non reality.

We will get there. The question is how long will it take? You don't even need to bring CRT into the discussion as that was the last thought on my mind when I posted. Even I am aware of the day when CRT will no longer be viable but I am spoiled. With that being said lets drop CRT from the discussion.

I'm looking foward to hearing Art's opinion and I'm all for progress but to say that on off contrast ratio is irrelevant is not true to me. Heck, I'd even like to be able to check one of your setups out one day as you progress. I'm not against 3 chip, I was very impressed with Art's setup when I saw it and still to this day feel the same way. 3 chip is the real deal, I admit it.

However, I'll take 100K to one contrast over 10K to one any day as it relates to my above statement.

I can tell that you are very passionate about your work and I applaud you for it but cmon', you cant be serious about that statement regarding contrast, and I'm sure that Ugo is very happy with what you have accomplished but I want this technology to progress, not regress. Bring on the CONTRAST!

If it's been accomplished before, there is no reason why it cannot be applied to today's technology. :)

Cliff

but the hole discusion about on off cr.make for many people read here anyway no sense because the have not the right room condition to see more than 2000:1 on off
anyway.
and for those that have the right room like art they should be fine with over 5000:1 on off.

Wolf, but what if you do have a room that can realize the kind of on/off performance that 100k can provide? Could you imagine having that kind of performance out of the Barco? Pumping the kind of light you are and dropping to a scene in a movie from upper IRE to low IRE for an extended period of time (like the underwater scene in Sky Captain) wouldn't you prefer the ability of having better blacks than what 4 or 5K to one contrast could provide?

Would Laser technology bring us this kind of performance with a DCI projector?

Cliff

.....When will you get your DP2000, NEC NC1600, or 2K DLP projector Art ?

Since the HT 5000 has nearly perfect panel alignment, can do 601 and 709 color (the content we have right now) , in excess of 6000:1 FF CR and enough light output to give over 20fL on a 14' wide screen (mine) I have no need for the Barco. If I had Wolfgang's needs regarding projection I'd ask his advice.

Art

We will get there. The question is how long will it take? You don't even need to bring CRT into the discussion as that was the last thought on my mind when I posted. Even I am aware of the day when CRT will no longer be viable but I am spoiled. With that being said lets drop CRT from the discussion.

I'm looking foward to hearing Art's opinion and I'm all for progress but to say that on off contrast ratio is irrelevant is not true to me. Heck, I'd even like to be able to check one of your setups out one day as you progress. I'm not against 3 chip, I was very impressed with Art's setup when I saw it and still to this day feel the same way. 3 chip is the real deal, I admit it.

However, I'll take 100K to one contrast over 10K to one any day as it relates to my above statement.

I can tell that you are very passionate about your work and I applaud you for it but cmon', you cant be serious about that statement regarding contrast, and I'm sure that Ugo is very happy with what you have accomplished but I want this technology to progress, not regress. Bring on the CONTRAST!

If it's been accomplished before, there is no reason why it cannot be applied to today's technology. :)

Cliff

How dare you communicate logically and rationally !:D

I think it is pretty safe to say that a DCI compliant projector modded to provide 5000:1 is as good as it gets.
CINERMAX or W.Mayer
Have you talked with any of the technology companies about the possibility of a 4DLP projector in the future. That could provide all the qualites you know and love and make all the worshippers of black happy. :)

Art,

Now that Cliff's party affiliation has been called; with the upcoming elections coming up, he does not want handicap the party any further... ;)

Sorry Peter, but such "killer phrases" should be exclusiv to high end audio voodoo dealers, cable-listeners and accoustic-ignorants. By the year 2008, we all should have stopped to believe in "wonders" and take matters purely unbiased by what they are.....and most matters can be measured, if not all....so numbers should all our best friends.

The only difference with such numbers is that you e.g. prefer one, say ANSI or Light Source Spectrum, over another. You clearly cannot be serious, when you try to persuade people into "shortcommings", because they do not follow your own preferences, taste or bias.

PS: and really, you should be able to afford an entry level DSLR (Nikon or Canon) for better screen shots ;)

Wolfgang said it best, numbers are not the whole picture. Regarding the camera I think it is just lack of know how on the operator end. ;)

lookie here:

http://cineramax.com/CES_2008/MiamiBADC.jpg

Very Blade Runnery,no?

i will give up to tell people here that numbers are important but not tell the hole story

Numbers are cold and unbiased. Numbers will not be able to tell about personal taste and preference. In some cases we do not even have all numbers yet. For example a DCI projector will look clearly better due to the costly high resolution and multi coated optics used, an issue we already know from our 9 inch CRT USPL ages. How can you grade in numbers their "quality share" of the picture you see when compared to a cheaper 1080P single chip design for 8K dollars, like you can use lumen or Ansi or black level ? Why not make up a number that will tell anybody right away the difference in quailty ? In theory you could easily make up all numbers needed to fully describe what you see. I have not a single doubt about it.

See, nobody minds that such expensive designs, like the Christie and Barco are superior, but as many have already stated here, comments like "much better than anything" barely qualify, especially when you know that even such costly projector are just "the better compromise".

but the hole discusion about on off cr.make for many people read here anyway no sense because the have not the right room condition to see more than 2000:1 on off anyway.I have a lot of respect for you, but we have disagreed on this one for years and although I have pointed out the fault in claiming people have to have some special room to see more than 2k:1 on/off CR, I have never seen you actually explain why you keep claiming that. The math is pretty simple. The only thing that can kill on/off CR is other lighting. White walls don't affect it (unless there is other lighting), so why do you keep claiming this thing about 2k:1 on/off CR? Heck, I have a receiver at the back of a setup in white walled rooms (in a corner facing forward probably close to 30' back in the 2nd of 2 room that are together) and the light from the displays on it don't light up my screen as much as a projector at over 30k:1 (using filters to simulate) on a blackout. I did put some neutral density filter material over the display on it because even though it doesn't light up the screen as much as any projector I've ever had on a blackout, there is still some light from it.

A friend had a CRT in a largely white room and the difference between 15k:1 from a digital and about 700k:1 from his CRT was obvious. The reason being that he controlled his lighting.

Please, this time explain why you keep claiming this thing about a 2k:1 room for on/off CR when on/off CR isn't changed by white walls unless you have other lighting (since 1.1x/1.1y is the same ratio as x/y, so 10% reflections on both 100 IRE and 0 IRE don't change on/off CR other than very minor color issues that are possible).

Do you think that most people here have enough lights on in their room that they can't control to make things above 2k:1 worthless? Or that they have light streaming in from outside or from other rooms all the time (even at night)?

As far as the discussion, hopefully nobody thinks that there isn't room for improvement with these DCI projectors in the area of on/off CR, even if they put out the best images anybody has ever seen. There are a lot of things that go into images and on/off CR is only one of them. TI mandating some lower number for now doesn't change that improvement in this area is possible and will likely come with time. It may take a competitor coming up with something that beats them in this area and also can do more of what TI's product can do now in order to push TI to go for more true to life absolute blacks though.

--Darin

Darin,

I don’t think that Wolfgang meant that a reflective room makes increases in sequential CR completely irrelevant. I think what he meant is that the more reflective the room, the less important higher sequential CR becomes. In other words, you have to go lower in APL or some other indicator of a dark image before the benefit of increased sequential contrast becomes meaningful. Ultimately, you would have to go to a complete blackout before you notice it. Obviously, the reflectivity of the room does not change the sequential CR measurement. However, the only significance of sequential CR is that it’s a proxy for image contrast, especially low APL image contrast, and the room obviously changes that.

Regarding increased sequential CR for DCI projectors, there is very little interest in pursuing it. The two main reasons are the ambient safety light limitation and the need to optimize light output.

Darin,

I don’t think that Wolfgang meant that a reflective room makes increases in sequential CR completely irrelevant. I think what he meant is that the more reflective the room, the less important higher sequential CR becomes. In other words, you have to go lower in APL or some other indicator of a dark image before the benefit of increased sequential contrast becomes meaningful. Ultimately, you would have to go to a complete blackout before you notice it. Obviously, the reflectivity of the room does not change the sequential CR measurement. However, the only significance of sequential CR is that it’s a proxy for image contrast, especially low APL image contrast, and the room obviously changes that.It is true that no matter how much on/off CR you have, low ANSI CR can kill your CR in mixed scenes and the light room is about killing ANSI CR (unless you have other lighting). So, the crossover point where on/off CR matters more moves down (toward darker). But, over 2k:1 would still matter in some mixed scenes even in a white room, just less of them from low ANSI CR (either from the projector or from the room). For instance, using this calculator here:

http://www.cinemablend.com/new.php?id=8853

to estimate different simultaneous CRs, if I use 100k:1 on/off, 500:1 ANSI, and 2.5 gamma with projector A, while using 2k:1 on/off, 500:1 ANSI, and 2.5 gamma with projector B, and use a high .1 for room reflections, then for a 10%stim/0%stim checkerboard that estimates 19:1 simultaneous CR for projector A and 8.7:1 simultaneous CR for projector B. I could use a 2.2 gamma for projector B to get 10.5:1 simultaneous CR there. In both case the 5%/0% checkerboard has over 3x the simultaneous CR with projector A as B, even in what would have to be a pretty light walled room for .1 reflections. That is enough reflections to take the ANSI CR down to about 20:1, even though the projectors could do 500:1.

I have little doubt that if the same projector was setup with either 100k:1 native on/off CR or 2k:1 native on/off CR and all else was equal, while done in a white room, pretty much anybody here who understands video much at all would be able to see the visible difference that 100k:1 would bring, after being shown various material. TI can't get there now as far as I know, but a 4 panel system could get pretty close and exceed 100k:1 overall (where native vs dynamic blurs some as there is smaller native in small zones).
Regarding increased sequential CR for DCI projectors, there is very little interest in pursuing it. The two main reasons are the ambient safety light limitation and the need to optimize light output.Somebody else posted that there is work being done on a liquid iris with multiple rings where each ring can be charged to make it dark. I thought he said that was for DCI. The ambient safety light limitation is an issue outside of homes, but from what I've seen it sure looks to my eyes like there are theaters where the DLP projector looks like it is by far the limiting factor for on/off CR. I don't believe that the lighting I've looked at in at least one theater while viewing a movie was coming even close to lighting up the screen as much as it was lit up on blackouts. There is a new theater around here with lots of lighting and in that case it might be lighting up the screen that much. Watching The Ruins was pretty pitiful with the whole theater pretty much lit up. Basically ruined parts of it IMO. A friend and I had just come from being disappointed with about 6k:1 dynamic from one projector in his theater since it didn't do as well with dark stuff as an RS2, but that 6k:1 killed the experience we got in that theater with the 2k DLP as far as how realistic the dark scenes looked. That may be the last time I go to see a dark movie at that theater.

--Darin

Another point in seq cr if you look in the papers repository thread 35mm only has 5k-1, if you are trying to better it all it takes is 5.1k-1.

I fully agree that you can see the difference between 2K:1 and 100K:1 CR in a white room. The question is how significant the difference is and is it important?

The ambient light level that's cited in the DCI spec document is .01fL as the upper limit. I don't know what the actual level range would be in a large sample of theaters.

Another point in seq cr if you look in the papers repository thread 35mm only has 5k-1, if you are trying to better it all it takes is 5.1k-1.How about video of tropical locations, like you like to point out with color? I understand the thing about film capture and playback, but that is a limitation of the technology and I've also been told that there has been film that could do much higher (at least before it gets scratched). The CRT monitors used for mastering the material we get should be much higher than 5k:1 and the person mastering can choose to encode things at video 16 (video black) or higher.

I doubt that film does the ANSI CRs these DCI projectors can do, but most of us wouldn't want to degrade those ANSI CRs to get down to film.

--Darin

I fully agree that you can see the difference between 2K:1 and 100K:1 CR in a white room. The question is how significant the difference is and is it important?We're on a forum where many people will pay a lot for minor improvements and consider things important that most people wouldn't. :) I think we basically agree, but I don't want people thinking that the differences wouldn't be visible unless they have some special room. They just need to control other lighting, which shouldn't be all that difficult for most people in their homes (at least at night).

--Darin

How about video of tropical locations, like you like to point out with color? I understand the thing about film capture and playback, but that is a limitation of the technology and I've also been told that there has been film that could do much higher (at least before it gets scratched). The CRT monitors used for mastering the material we get should be much higher than 5k:1 and the person mastering can choose to encode things at video 16 (video black) or higher.

I doubt that film does the ANSI CRs these DCI projectors can do, but most of us wouldn't want to degrade those ANSI CRs to get down to film.

--Darin

As wolfgang mentioned in another thread BARCO has an Iron clad agreement with TI not to reduce the apertures past the TI DCI spec of 2k-1. There is no way around that. There is the ilumination issue, and the ehat issue for their designs = reliability safety factor. There is just the one venue for obtaining the SuperKontrast mods that I know with the full warranty, I know because I was involved in some of the negotiations, it was not easy to accomplish, there was significant legwork, and cr increments are being handled conservatively and cautiously. One at a time. First the SK MKI we monitored and then felt comfortable with augmenting another 1k, but this time it's taking the lens iris, an additional 10% reduction in the plate and the native white to d65 alignment and software setup.

That is it, you can't go past that, maybe another k if you go from an O to a delta aperture but your uniformity will go down big time (in a .98 scenario).


Andreas, I am not opposed to a number that quantifies image quality but it has to be handicapped by factors such as lamp source, spectral reponse, quality of lens, quality of optics,; minutea beyond basic specs.

The best thing is a panel of experts which is what we are essentially assembling here in this lone subforum. The Superkontrast right now is the overall winner let's give it a 9 on a scale of 1-10.

That is it, you can't go past that ...With an aperture plate before the chips and one in the lens you might get some more if the heat could be handled, but even besides that, this is just the current chips and other technology. They could go much higher with other chips or something like a 4 panel projector, where one panel controls the light to the other 3 in zones. Requires quite a bit of software to do something like that where there isn't one-to-one pixel mapping from the first chip to the next 3, but that kind of work is already being done with flat panel displays that have overlapping zone systems like this.

The TI rule is just marketing, legal, etc. and isn't because technology won't be able to go much higher.

I would like to see another company like Sony pressure TI to higher on/off CRs for these, but Sony doesn't seem to be competing that well in this market. TI knows that higher on/off CRs help (other than where there is a bunch of other light on in the room or coming into the room that kills it) because they are involved in home theater projectors that go much higher than 2k:1 on/off CR and show the improvement from that.

--Darin

Sir, fantastic setup!

I was wondering what digital cinema server you are using to store the digital presentations.

Have you though about a "REAL-D" 3d playback system for playing back the REAL-D encoded films?

Has it been difficult to acquire the digital cinema films for your systems? Are you receiving them Via HardDrive or satellite down-link?

Again Fantastic system and if these questions have been asked or answered before I deeply apologize.

I have little doubt that if the same projector was setup with either 100k:1 native on/off CR or 2k:1 native on/off CR and all else was equal, while done in a white room, pretty much anybody here who understands video much at all would be able to see the visible difference that 100k:1 would bring, after being shown various material.

--Darin

I rest my case. :D

So Darin, thanks again for that big dog (the tapes). El mucho appreciated. ;)

Cliffy

Sir, fantastic setup!

I was wondering what digital cinema server you are using to store the digital presentations.

Have you though about a "REAL-D" 3d playback system for playing back the REAL-D encoded films?

Has it been difficult to acquire the digital cinema films for your systems? Are you receiving them Via HardDrive or satellite down-link?

Again Fantastic system and if these questions have been asked or answered before I deeply apologize.

thanks!

i plan i cinema server as i can get some content in 2 AND 3d.
more i can and will not say here.
real-3 have a 3d playback system with polarizer in front of the optic.
there are no real-d encoded films there are only 2d or 3d movies as real-d is
a """display system only for 3d""".

Some shrinkage compared to yours Wolfgang but still pretty cool.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/ScreenshotCR1a.jpg


http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/ScreenShotWM01.jpg

Art

Looks like that flight must have hit a flock of foul mid air. Theres something stuck to the propeller blade:)

Art

Looks like that flight must have hit a flock of foul mid air. Theres something stuck to the propeller blade:)

Yea Cliff told me to get over further into the picture and just then bang I was hanging there. I kept my composure just long enough for the picture.:D

Art,

Steroids are bad for the pecker, you know?:)

Art,

Steroids are bad for the pecker, you know?:)

Peter,
I'm pretty proud of the fact that I've been lifting for over thirty years and have never touched them. I know me, if I did I could never go off ,I'd have to find the next better thing. I know myself too well.:o

Art

Hey HDCP card out in June 1st.

Peter,
I'm pretty proud of the fact that I've been lifting for over thirty years ..

Art

No wonder Odyssey confessed being intimidated by your size in one of your tete-a-tetes'.

looks like WOlfgangs blacks are a tiny bit crushed.

Remember when screen shots took long exposure times, and you needed special gear for them.

Maybe, I did not notice, but look at those whites on the plane and clouds, nary one bit of UHP green. :D

BTW SuperKontrast MKII projected sequential cr ratio now > 6k-1, with new contrast level we have decided not to procede with the CP2000mr cr enhancement research [code name FarbenMeister aborted].:D

Another spot in the Barco has been found so The SK MKII will be sporting twin (2) ap's in the lightube. :D :D Rubbing hands in anticipation. We will have intrumentation readout photographs this time to prove both CR's @D65 to the skeptics.

My biggest challenge with the Barco is still designing for the damned CONVERGENCE ACCESS [see attachment] It's from the side and from the top of the PJ.

With this kind of contrastS (>6K-1, =/< 900 ANSI CR) this projector will have better sequential than common 35mm stock by a decent margin; not to mention ANSI and MTF.

The new dual apertures are being modelled this time around, with the MKI we just built three at random.

Maybe, I did not notice, but look at those whites on the plane and clouds, nary one bit of UHP green. :D

White point /gray scale tracking are excellent on this projector.The filtered lamp probably has something to do with it.

Art

White point /gray scale tracking are excellent on this projector.The filtered lamp probably has something to do with it.

Art

I am sure your instrumentation shows that, but with uhp versus xenon comparisons theere are different whites. Look at the plane and the clouds, this is the type of difference I have been claiming to see for years.

I am sure your instrumentation shows that, but with uhp versus xenon comparisons theere are different whites. Look at the plane and the clouds, this is the type of difference I have been claiming to see for years.

Absolutely not. Like Simon Cowell says, "Sorry!".

It's the camera. Not the image.

G90 Stack:

http://www.seriouspc.com/cr/9.jpg

Sim 2 HT5000:

http://www.seriouspc.com/ht5000/2.jpg

Wolfgang's Barco:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_2556.jpg

You should never base colors on a screenshot to what is actually on the screen. To many variables. :)

Cliff

You should never base colors on a screenshot to what is actually on the screen. To many variables.

Cliff

yes thats right.
i can made the picture looks very differnent by just use other adjustments for my
canon 5d camera.
it is possible that i use the 3d adjustments from my canon 5d camera and that
can change the looking a bit.

not forgeth i made this picture only because art ask for it and i never take care
that this pictures are good or not in color.
i also not agree with all peters posts but he is right that a uhp lamp can never
have the same color that xenon can do even if all the measurments are more or less the same.
i know that there are some very good looking uhp color pr. out and the sim2 5000 is one
of them (i had for a test a unit and compare it to the christie hd6k) but
xenon looks better.
its again not day and night but you can see it.
there is no way for me and most other user that have a 3chip dlp with xenon to go back
to a uhp pr.
at least not with uhp lamps we have today.

may i made a new pictures when i return and than i take care about right color.
i will than post 2 pictures one at cinema color how i use my unit and one with 100% d 65 color.
but this will be against my thinking that screen shots can not tell much.

The instrumentation does indeed show that all along the gray scale is right on.

Cliff is right, it looks like his G90 as far as color when calibrated (same camera).

I can certainly admit that it may look different but correct as far as 709 primaries and white point is another story.

I hate to get into this in Wolfgang's thread he deserves better, but halfway across the earth,two different cameras, vastly different rooms and footlambert values,different calibrations and color space set ups those two images look almost scary close.

Art

You should never base colors on a screenshot to what is actually on the screen. To many variables.

Cliff

yes thats right.
i can made the picture looks very differnent by just use other adjustments for my
canon 5d camera.
it is possible that i use the 3d adjustments from my canon 5d camera and that
can change the looking a bit.

not forgeth i made this picture only because art ask for it and i never take care
that this pictures are good or not in color.
i also not agree with all peters posts but he is right that a uhp lamp can never
have the same color that xenon can do even if all the measurments are more or less the same.
i know that there are some very good looking uhp color pr. out and the sim2 5000 is one
of them (i had for a test a unit and compare it to the christie hd6k) but
xenon looks better.
its again not day and night but you can see it.
there is no way for me and most other user that have a 3chip dlp with xenon to go back
to a uhp pr.
at least not with uhp lamps we have today.

may i made a new pictures when i return and than i take care about right color.
i will than post 2 pictures one at cinema color how i use my unit and one with 100% d 65 color.
but this will be against my thinking that screen shots can not tell much.

No, screenshots can be very deceiving. :)

They are fun though! :D

So I have to ask, what about the Xenon do you feel that is superior to UHP? I've been told for years now that Xenon is better, but if an instrument is accurate in measurement and both measure the same, how could they not be the same?

If the Xenon is producing even the slightest difference in color, you would think that the difference should be measurable?

What is the DCI spec for color if I may ask? In other words, it sounds to me like it's not D6500. What is the spec for film?

Sorry for all of the questions. :)

Cliff

I hate to get into this in Wolfgang's thread he deserves better, but halfway across the earth,two different cameras, vastly different rooms and footlambert values,different calibrations and color space set ups those two images look almost scary close.

Art

I agree. :)

Cliff

Hold it there are 3 different cameras, I may not be a good operator but the color pallette comes through.

The two barcos have a similar hue, saturation is different on the smaller 1600 watt with 4k-1 mod ( ive also noticed increased saturation on the 5k-1 lighting reference).

Tell tales of good colorimetry, no tint of green on sky & clouds, paper wjhite on the extrem underwing, ther are about 8 different layers of white distinguishable.

Hold it there are 3 different cameras, I may not be a good operator but the color pallette comes through.

The two barcos have a similar hue, saturation is different on the smaller 1600 watt with 4k-1 mod ( ive also noticed increased saturation on the 5k-1 lighting reference).

Tell tales of good colorimetry, no tint of green on sky & clouds, paper wjhite on the extrem underwing, ther are about 8 different layers of white distinguishable.

Nope. Not good enough. Need to see the original in it's full glory in focus and good resolution.

;)

:confused:That is the original

What is the DCI spec for color if I may ask? In other words, it sounds to me like it's not D6500. What is the spec for film?


D6500 refers to the white point temperature.

DCI gamut is a good bit wider than 709 as is film. A quick google will get you some comparative CIE charts.

Film is wider than DCI at present but the XYZ coding system of DCI has the ability to go wider than film, as its gamut is unlimited, if thats required down the road.

Bear in mind that DCI has some cool gamma stuff too and huge data rates. The difference is not hard to see.

BTW SuperKontrast MKII projected sequential cr ratio now > 6k-1,



Glad to see you will be able to get to what I've been enjoying in FF CR for the past eight months, I'm sure you will like it.

I'm afraid though the large screen FF CR will be pretty anemic compared to the coming 4K units.

Art

:confused:That is the original

It's too blurry. :)

D6500 refers to the white point temperature.

DCI gamut is a good bit wider than 709 as is film. A quick google will get you some comparative CIE charts.

Film is wider than DCI at present but the XYZ coding system of DCI has the ability to go wider than film, as its gamut is unlimited, if thats required down the road.

Bear in mind that DCI has some cool gamma stuff too and huge data rates. The difference is not hard to see.

Thanks for the info. So is DCI whitepoint D6500? How about film? Would film be closer to 5000?

Cliff

Glad to see you will be able to get to what I've been enjoying in FF CR for the past eight months, I'm sure you will like it.

See A

I'm afraid though the large screen FF CR will be pretty anemic compared to the coming 4K units.




A-Except with much better color and MTF.70 mm like.

B- drop trhe cat out of the bag to me on that one. Which LCOS unit. What is FF cr? A new acronym for ansi?

A-Except with much better color and MTF.70 mm like.

B- drop trhe cat out of the bag to me on that one. Which LCOS unit. What is FF cr? A new acronym for ansi?

I really doubt that the Barco has better color than the HT 5000 with BD as the source, content DCI yes. I also can only guess what the color will be like on these units as your are.

I think that although your 70mm projection analogy is cute, it really is too absurd to be taken seriously.

FF (full field) CR

Art

I really doubt that the Barco has better color than the HT 5000 with BD as the source, content DCI yes.

I think that although your 70mm projection analogy is cute, it really is too absurd to be taken seriously.

FF (full field) CR

Art

There you go muscle man. I have seen several systems like you have and did not approve (6 on scale of 10), but you have not seen a Barco (9 on scale of 10). So you are at a disadvantage there by trying to stick to logic. The Barco DP1500 is what Hollywood uses to master your BD's.

Colorwise there is no more accurate possible projector or display ON THE PLANET than a DCI set with a 5nm SR. Once you shoot the primaries and enter it into the TIP7 system, you just pick the standard and the system automatically using algorythms that cost in excess of 20m to develop complies. That color statement is ludicrous. Your instrumentation is not accounting for the ragged response of the uhp, your primaries were not measured at 5nm but 8 (therefore are OFF), your calibration cannot hold for 100 hours as red intensity has diminished by then.

The 70mm comment comes from the MTF benchmarks and the propietary s shaped gamma that portrays many fields of depth which of course are better appreciated visibly with the projector's superior optics.

There you go muscle man. I have seen several systems like you have and did not approve (6 on scale of 10), but you have not seen a Barco (9 on scale of 10). So you are at a disadvantage there by trying to stick to logic. The Barco DP1500 is what Hollywood uses to master your BD's.

Colorwise there is no more accurate possible projector or display ON THE PLANET than a DCI set with a 5nm SR. Once you shoot the primaries and enter it into the TIP7 system, you just pick the standard and the system automatically using algorythms that cost in excess of 20m to develop complies. That color statement is ludicrous. Your instrumentation is not accounting for the ragged response of the uhp, your primaries were not measured at 5nm but 8 (therefore are OFF), your calibration cannot hold for 100 hours as red intensity has diminished by then.

The 70mm comment comes from the MTF benchmarks and the propietary s shaped gamma that portrays many fields of depth which of course are better appreciated visibly with the projector's superior optics.

Yea but obviously you don't seem to understand that BD doesn't use DCI primaries as the standard. The Barco has a color gamut capability outside what the BD uses. The added accuracy outside that isn't particularly relevant in the software we have now. I hope we get DCi content for the home soon then I agree with you.

Whatever unit you saw had DC3 as you said not to mention without the lamp filtered as you said but not true for the HT5000 ( you said the 5000 doesn't have a filtered lamp which in fact it does)

Saying that my primaries are off by how they are measured makes no sense. That is like saying that it isn't sixty five dgrees outside because my thermometer measures in degrees and yours in 2/3 degree increments. It still can be 65 degrees.

Of course once again it is interesting that when we say we've measured you call them little measurements when you measure they are all that matters.:D

Speaking of which have you looked at your light output lately ?


Art

I would advise that looking at the spectrum of UHP and XENON tells you a lot, however both lamp technologies have their pros and cons. You see most of the talk and target here is having a picture at home with a digital machine that equals or exceed that of a reference analog theater fed by a master.
Just think that if the analog machines would have been using UHP then maybe everybody would follow the UHP path to be the reference for the home theater ?
XENON by far ist the closest to the daylight spectrum of all used lamp technologies making it the first choice if you want to reproduce as close to nature as possible. However most motion pictures today try the opposite, or only can with all the rendering !

"""XENON by far ist the closest to the daylight spectrum of all used lamp technologies making it the first choice if you want to reproduce as close to nature as possible."""

for me the target is the nature not any 35mm film or some dci or video standart.
when i make my 3d pictures i try to get the picture as close as i can do to the nature
and i saw beside xenon no other lamp that can do this.
the difference get smaller when you only feed d 65 video content yes but also there
i can see a small difference.
and not forgeth we will get content with more color bandw. and
we already have it if you record with some hdv video or other cameras that
have this wide color.
look at a uhp specturm and a xenon specturum and if you know what filters can do and
what not than you should understand it.

as uwe sad xenon is more or less identicall to sunlight uhp need much treatment
to perform almost similar.

My point is ,and I don't think that either Ewe or Wolfgang are arguing with this that although Xenon has advantages,as does UHP, in using BD that difference may not be of great significance.

The white point with filtering and the primaries can be made spot on with UHP for 601 and 709 . This is how films are monitored for reproduction in the home. I agree if we are considering DCI content projectors like mine will come up short ,but as of now it does a great job reproducing accurately the content we have.

When DCI is readiliy available for the home I'll cross that bridge.

Art

I have been seeing a big difference in the two lamp sources on three chip dlp now for 5 years. How come instrumentation cannot pick up the differences?

http://www.harmonysuite.com/crw_6163_std.jpg

To my eye the xenon feels organic, you have to understand I grew up under the caribbean sun. When I see clouds in the sky by a uhp projector they stick out like a sore. Xenon is the only option on the path to image perfection. Now that I have experienced D65 in all it's TIP7 glory I like it, previous efforts sometimes degraded the image (like in early Barco 9 inchers-Runco made them look blue and lifeless with the filters).

INSTRUMENTATION IS USELESS with uhp, it can get you close but never right. This forum is loaded with people that now believe that numbers are everything. It's like penguins, one jumps into the icehole full of orcas and the others continue to dive in rank in file into the smorgasbord from hell.

It is saddenning that people choose to ignore this basic maxim of HTduring our watch .

My point is ,and I don't think that either Ewe or Wolfgang are arguing with this that although Xenon has advantages,as does UHP, in using BD that difference may not be of great significance.

The white point with filtering and the primaries can be made spot on with UHP for 601 and 709 . This is how films are monitored for reproduction in the home. I agree if we are considering DCI content projectors like mine will come up short ,but as of now it does a great job reproducing accurately the content we have.

When DCI is readiliy available for the home I'll cross that bridge.

Art

This is SO NOT TRUE. DCI projectors are the best way to enjoy D65.

What you need is a D65 Ludovico session with the SK. Then you will see the light . :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/Clockwork%2771.jpg

Peter ,for BD the source is the limiting factor for color. You speak of accuracy out of one side of your mouth and a wider gamut than the source (inaccuracy) out of the other.

I think you my like what you see and there is nothing wrong with that but you need to say you like it and drop it. I like girls with big behinds and small on top(Brazillian ideal) but I know better than to try to say that that look is "right".

Art

INSTRUMENTATION IS USELESS with uhp, it can get you close but never right. This forum is loaded with people that now believe that numbers are everything.

Just make sure that in your next quote with contrast and the accuracy of your primaries using numbers you think twice,unless of course you are happy to further compromise your credibility.

Art

I would start wondering more about your credibility. If you can enjoy watching UHP because the numbers are right and you are considered one of the top videophiles in the industry, this industry needs an enema.;)

I would start wondering more about your credibility. If you can enjoy watching UHP because the numbers are right and you are considered one of the top videophiles in the industry, this industry needs an enema.;)

You give me too much credit again. I would like to get my Ludovicio treatment at your theater when it's done. Trust me, if I see what you say to be so, I'll be the first on the roof top yelling it.

The only issue is if I can't come till late summer it gets a lot more difficult to find the time with two of my children I football. Get it done !

Art

Xenon is better than UHP, yes. However what Art is pointing out is totally accurate. while we might be able to measure some differences with the top of the line spectral radiometer, the main difference that is going to matter to a HT is colour stability over its life. UHP shifts quite a bit over time. Xenon shifts very little.

Beyond this, keep digging yourself a hole peter.

Late summer sounds just right. You will get to see two theaters and one other surprise. Superkontrast galore. ;)

I like girls with big behinds and small on top(Brazillian ideal) but I know better than to try to say that that look is "right".

Art

That looks "right" to me!!

I was on a Brazilian /Swedish diet for a couple of months about 10 years ago. The 32yr old Brazilian as described in the afternoons, and a LEELOO 26yr. old lookalike for all nighters. I lost 30 pounds in two months. I am sure our mormon forum members will appreciate that one.:)

That looks "right" to me!!

Yea me to ,in fact, for me that is the ultimate female body but I know it isn't for everyone.

Art

Late summer sounds just right. You will get to see two theaters and one other surprise. Superkontrast galore. ;)


Peter,
Football starts for them at the end of July. It will get a lot more difficult to get away after that.

Art

what i like to bring here up was that all the people that saw the unit
and there was also some crt guys they can not belive that this unit have
just arround 2400:1 cr.
when i ask them the sady it looks like 5000:1 or more and that is also
how i see it.
Well, that I can believe. Big ANSI contrast and careful custom gamma curves together can give the impression of higher On-Off than one would estimate using standard gamma and lower ANSI contrast projectors. Obviously you have to make the best out of the hard numbers you have to work with and there is room for optimization. We are all waiting for bright projectors so we can light up big screens and have superior blacks all the time as well. For now it's the perpetuum mobile, but this can change and will change.

and for those that have the right room like art they should be fine with over 5000:1 on off.

I know that 5000:1 does not work for me overall. Feature films are too dark a medium for that. My zone of comfort starts at ~10000:1. My zone of excitement though is not available from consumer digital projectors for now. It's beyond 100000:1.

Dear Art, you seem to fall into the same trap as many others do.
These tools they use to measure the projectors are made to show what people want to see. In fact I do not believe them at all, maybe if I would spend 100k then I would get something accurate.
They are somehow ok, to get a projector better that was tweaked to be bright or blueish by the factory to win the store comparisions.

However the biggest mistake is believing that the D65 point does mean much. You can achieve a good D65 with any crapy projector today, but why DO WE SEE DIFFERENCES ?
Simple answer if you tweak primaries like the RADIANCE offers you do nothing but add red and blue to compensate for a too wide gammut for e.g. green.
So your green is not green anymore but a composition of all 3 colors ?
I was always asking myself that I never read about this for the fact it is so obvious. Same thing with lamp spectrum correcting using filters.
You would loose so much light if you would filter an UHP to come close to the natural spectrum of a XENON (that still requires a lot of filters, I can tell because I opened the light engine of a VW 100 once and there are many !!).

Once I gave the colored liquid of the SONY green and red tube to a chemist at MERCK (supplies liquid crystal to almost any LCD manufacturer in this world). He used his million dollar lab equipment to analyze the used pigments and supplied me better more stable pigments that I could use to filter a MARQUEE 8 inch unfiltered tube.

the results are here

http://www.spatz-tech.de/spatz/tubes_dyed_eng.htm

as you can see this was even a measured improvement not to mention how much better this was in the overall picture. And I could get proper D65 with or without the filters !

Anyway I am sure that the differences are small but isn't this whole discussions about this small difference ?

Dear Art, you seem to fall into the same trap as many others do.
These tools they use to measure the projectors are made to show what people want to see. In fact I do not believe them at all, maybe if I would spend 100k then I would get something accurate.
They are somehow ok, to get a projector better that was tweaked to be bright or blueish by the factory to win the store comparisions.

However the biggest mistake is believing that the D65 point does mean much. You can achieve a good D65 with any crapy projector today, but why DO WE SEE DIFFERENCES ?
Simple answer if you tweak primaries like the RADIANCE offers you do nothing but add red and blue to compensate for a too wide gammut for e.g. green.
So your green is not green anymore but a composition of all 3 colors ?
I was always asking myself that I never read about this for the fact it is so obvious. Same thing with lamp spectrum correcting using filters.
You would loose so much light if you would filter an UHP to come close to the natural spectrum of a XENON (that still requires a lot of filters, I can tell because I opened the light engine of a VW 100 once and there are many !!).

Once I gave the colored liquid of the SONY green and red tube to a chemist at MERCK (supplies liquid crystal to almost any LCD manufacturer in this world). He used his million dollar lab equipment to analyze the used pigments and supplied me better more stable pigments that I could use to filter a MARQUEE 8 inch unfiltered tube.

the results are here

http://www.spatz-tech.de/spatz/tubes_dyed_eng.htm

as you can see this was even a measured improvement not to mention how much better this was in the overall picture. And I could get proper D65 with or without the filters !

Anyway I am sure that the differences are small but isn't this whole discussions about this small difference ?

I never said that d65 is perfect,or UHP is perfect or even that the PR650 is perfect. I am saying that incredible color can be achieved with color management tools. The UHP lamp in the HT 5000 is filtered and yes any of these techniques reduces light output but the result is what matters. I have a projector that has many advantages. I'm getting over 20fL on a 14' wide screen with the best sequential contrast of any three chip DLP ,with panel alignment that is second to none ,and a quiet ,relatively small versatile device.

I've not yet seen what one of the Barco units looks like using BD compared to my unit but we have to use properly set and measured primaries and white point or the colors are by definition inaccurate. We may end up liking inaccurate colors more but that is another subject isn't it.

Art

I've not yet seen what one of the Barco units looks like using BD compared to my unit but we have to use properly set and measured primaries and white point or the colors are by definition inaccurate. We may end up liking inaccurate colors more but that is another subject isn't it.


Art when you see a digital cinema projector set in rec 709 it IS the most possibly accurate colorimetry anywhere. The calibration engine on these units yiled the most accurate results of any electronic projection platform.

I believe you will see the differences, I believe you will end up appreciating the advantages of xenon, I am not sure you will accept the slightly undersaturated colors as true d65 but in reality it does not come any closer than that, it is the consumer units that are slightly oversaturated for effect.

Art when you see a digital cinema projector set in rec 709 it IS the most possibly accurate colorimetry anywhere. The calibration engine on these units yiled the most accurate results of any electronic projection platform.

I believe you will see the differences, I believe you will end up appreciating the advantages of xenon, I am not sure you will accept the slightly undersaturated colors as true d65 but in reality it does not come any closer than that, it is the consumer units that are slightly oversaturated for effect.

Peter,
I'm looking foward to it.

Art

Simple answer if you tweak primaries like the RADIANCE offers you do nothing but add red and blue to compensate for a too wide gammut for e.g. green.
So your green is not green anymore but a composition of all 3 colors ?REC.709 green is already a composition of all 3 colors (or at least more colors than just green). If you don't have anything but green in the green primary then that primary is wrong (at least for SMPTE-C or REC.709). There are multiple ways to get blue and red into the green primary to meet REC.709 (filters, driving the other channels for the green primary, etc.).

--Darin

I think part of the discussion cross purposes here is that the lamp is the white for film and the primaries are the phosphors plus filters or colored glycol in CRT FP. The white point and primaries can be manipulated independently in a three chip DLP not so for CRT or film.

Art

I think part of the discussion cross purposes here is that the lamp is the white for film and the primaries are the phosphors plus filters or colored glycol in CRT FP. The white point and primaries can be manipulated independently in a three chip DLP not so for CRT or film.I think some confusion comes in with what a primary is. With CRT we could think of it as each gun, but with an external processor with the right support you could change the primaries on screen much like is done with DLP, where what the projector is capable of as far as pure blue, pure green, and pure red isn't necessarily what it does when showing a primary for video (like trying to hit the REC.709 green). One problem with CRTs is that if you filtered each tube to go out further than REC.709 it would hurt the lumens for white and they already struggled with lumens.

--Darin

i finish my instalation after my return from holiday.

here are some pictures how i did it without port glass
and therefore

-no decrease in ansi cr.
-no decrease in lumen
-no decrease in picture quality
-2 glass air surfaces less (dust biggest cr. killer!)

and the best very cheap:-)

sound level is fine for the first row where i sit 99:9%.
its like a qualia between low and high lamp mode.

for the secound row its ok a bit more than a qualia in high lamp mode.
i can bring the sound level more down as i can put more
sound absorber inside the pr. room but i guess there is no need for it.

it was a lot of work all together but the result is great.



http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2563.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2564.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2565.JPG
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2570.JPG

Very nice, I was thinking of something similar for the third superkontrast.

I have a few questions if you don't mind.

1-What material is this thin panel in between the lens ring and the projecktor chassis?
wood, plastic, metal? 1-B it looks like there is a smaller subpanel that is closed in after the lens is in place, in that case ignore question3.;)

2- Is the opening round or elliptical (to accommodate the vertical lens shift).

3-How did you lock down the screen locks with such restricted access?

4-Are the black velvet curtains adding additional sound insulation to the panel or they are just for light scatter countermeasure effect?

Looks very clean. Congrats.


Oh wait! Question 5- I see you got a Denon surround processor. How do you like the scaler section compared to a straight 1080p feed into the projector dvi in?

http://www.acoustiblok.com/images/inst_fig5.jpg

I was thinking of using ACOUSTIBLOK.


Last question if the projector has 65 db in the open what do you think you are getting now in front of the lens 45-55db?

Very,very pretty Woflfgang !

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_2570.JPG

Very very nice. The curtains give that theatrical atmosphere.

I know you are not using an anamorphic lens but that looks like an Isco 3 peeping it head out of the curtains, good size primary.

That thing poking into the room just screams out, in an alien voice,... "Irrespective of species or gender, you are about to be violated..........HARD'

Looks great.

You mean like the shower scene from Porky's :eek:

You mean like the shower scene from Porky's :eek:

Ahh Porkys. I remember some of the names...Coach Goodenough, Cherry Forever, Pee Wee but Beulah Balbricker was one of my favs!