I have the Sunfire True Subwoofer Junior. I can only go up to
100hz but my room has peaks at 111 and 142 Hz as measured
via the main speakers. I am using BFD to EQ the bass. I dont like to
send the full range signal to a $99 components like the BFD. I only
want to send the bass.

I was wondering if there are subs that can go up to some 150Hz.
I checked Sunfire and SVS and they all go only up to 100Hz.

I was also wondering why the AVR's give cross over options up to some
200Hz when most subs can only go up to 100Hz.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

BTW my budget for a new sub is some $600 assuming that I can get some
$300 for my sunfire on ebay.

I just noticed that a $199 X-Sub by Onix has the cross over
options from 40-150Hz but the more expensive subs like
SVS or Sunfire only go up to 90 ot 100Hz.

Is the X-sub my best bet then? I know it may not sound as good as
other expensive subs but I am sure it would be better than the
boomy bass which I get from my Klipsch RB81's. I want to send everything
below 150Hz to the sub abd EQ the bass using the BFD. I tried Audyssey but I was not impressed with it.

I just noticed that a $199 X-Sub by Onix has the cross over
options from 40-150Hz but the more expensive subs like
SVS or Sunfire only go up to 90 ot 100Hz.

Is the X-sub my best bet then? I know it may not sound as good as
other expensive subs but I am sure it would be better than the
boomy bass which I get from my Klipsch RB81's. I want to send everything
below 150Hz to the sub abd EQ the bass using the BFD. I tried Audyssey but I was not impressed with it.

40-120 for SVS.

The drawbacks of going with both the higher crossover and inferior sub far outweigh the drawbacks of sending full range signals to be processed by the BFD, give it a shot I don't think you'll tell a difference in an ABX test. Another option, just live with the imperfect fr, no one has it perfect, things go all over the place down low in room, like I said, do you think its worth having a locatable sub? Do you think its worth having an inferior sub? Its up to you, but if it were up to me there would be absolutely no doubt what to do.

what about getting a MBM-12 to supplement your sub?

Thats an option that would help to cancel one of the compromises I mentioned, it would allow him to use a much better sub or sub combo rather and not have to pass his mains signal through his BFD. It still doesn't help the localization issues, but I guess he is prepared to deal with those.

The SVS SB12 runs flat up to about 200hz. I run a pair of those crossed over at 150hz

I was wondering if there are subs that can go up to some 150Hz.

I checked Sunfire and SVS and they all go only up to 100Hz.

I was also wondering why the AVR's give cross over options up to some
200Hz when most subs can only go up to 100Hz.Some subs allow you to bypass their crossover completely (unfiltered input). So, how high they can reach is not determined by their own crossover's maximum allowable setting but by the physics (intended or not) of their design.

Build a few bass traps. Running the sub higher is the wrong solution (and may not work at all).

Thanks for all the input.

People rave about the x-sub but if it is an inferior sub and weights some 50lbs I am better off keeping my Sunior Junior but I badly need to tone down the peaks over
100Hz.

I have Klipsch RB81 and the old Yamaha RXV-795a. But I am planning to get better speakers, Vienna Acoustics Mozart or Dynaudio Audience 72 and a Rotel amp/2ch receiver RB-1070 or RX-1052. So I was concerned about sending full range to a $99 product like BFD when I would have invested a lot more on speakers and the amp.
That is why I am looking for a good sub that can go to 150Hz.

Sure I can add traps but the traps cant pin point to a frequency and tone it down like I can do with the BFD. I clearly have peaks at 111Hz, 142.5 Hz and 160Hz. I have only tested 1/6th octaves so far. There could be other peaks.

So to me sending some 150-200Hz to a sub and using the BFD gives a solution which does not compromise the quality of the mids and highs(which to me are equally important in 2ch music). I could deal with some 45-50lbs but not more than that.


Got to go. Will refine my reply later as I didnt get to say everything I wanted clearly.

I believe that both SVS and HSU recommend that if you have a decent crossover on your AVR or are able to set your speakers to "small", that you disable the crossover at the sub and use the one on the AVR for complete bass management or all channels. Most quality subs should go to at least 150hz fairly flat, though proper location within the listening environment and proper calibration and integration with the mains will certainly be a factor.

To quote you from above, It absolutely will comprimise quality if you have a sub crossed over that high.

This simply is not what they were designed to do.

I am a firm believer in room treatments. Bass traps work. I have the tri-traps form Gik acoustics and they have worked wonders in my room.

Now a little more information please:

How big is your room?

How big are the peaks you are talking about?

Where do you have your sub crossed over now?
Just because a sub shows 50-100 as it's range, doesn't
mean it is limited to that range. Your sub may be the
problem. Have you tried crossing it over lower? My point
is even crossed over at 80hz, the sub still produces sound
into the 100's.

Last question, have you tried moving the sub? Sometimes
inches can make big differences.

It sounds to me like the issue is more with the mains than the sub, but depending on what the sub is doing up there it could have a big impact on those peaks and nulls.

I have no idea if your sub is inferior to the x sub, both seem to be good products for their intended class, by inferior, I was referring to choosing the X sub simply for its ability to play up to 150Hz when there are other more capable subs that may not be able to. If you can do room treatments, they are definitely the way to go, unfortunately many people can't have them in their rooms, they cost too much money and aren't acceptable looking, but the improvements that can be had should not be ignored.

Thanks for all the input.

Sure I can add traps but the traps cant pin point to a frequency and tone it down like I can do with the BFD. I clearly have peaks at 111Hz, 142.5 Hz and 160Hz. I have only tested 1/6th octaves so far. There could be other peaks.



The point of bass trapping is to reduce the amount of interaction the room has with sound under 300hz. If you room has too much echo in the mid and high frequencies, eq'ing it won't make any difference. Echo in the bass range is called ringing and it can't be eq'd away either. The peaks and dips that every room will get at specific frequencies is caused by the interaction with the room dimensions (modes). Broadband bass trapping fixes ringing and reduces peaks and dips.

You can use a screwdriver to bang in a nail but a hammer works much better.

The higher the sub is tuned the more likely you will be able to locate it.

It sounds to me like the issue is more with the mains than the sub, but depending on what the sub is doing up there it could have a big impact on those peaks and nulls.

The cause is the room. If you took all this stuff and used it in an open field, you'd get almost ruler flat FR.

To quote you from above, It absolutely will comprimise quality if you have a sub crossed over that high.

This simply is not what they were designed to do.

I am a firm believer in room treatments. Bass traps work. I have the tri-traps form Gik acoustics and they have worked wonders in my room.

Now a little more information please:

How big is your room?

How big are the peaks you are talking about?

Where do you have your sub crossed over now?
Just because a sub shows 50-100 as it's range, doesn't
mean it is limited to that range. Your sub may be the
problem. Have you tried crossing it over lower? My point
is even crossed over at 80hz, the sub still produces sound
into the 100's.

Last question, have you tried moving the sub? Sometimes
inches can make big differences.


why do you think my sub is a problem?

The sub specs clearly say its freq. response is up to 100. It does go
a little bit over 100. I did not measure
anything significant at 111Hz. Yes I have tried moving the sub.

I tried the main speakers alone and I measured peaks
over 100hz. I measured peaks at 111, 142.5 and 160. These peaks are
10db over the rest.

Traps may do wonders if only I know where to put the traps so that I can
focus on those 3 peaks at 111, 142.5 and 160. There may be other peaks but I only measured the 1/6th octave frequencies.

and why would I cross over the sub lower when I know there are peaks over 100 Hz
Note this is the sub cross over (knob on the sub). My receiver only has one cross over
as it is old. I can only set it to small and the fixed cross over on my RXV-795a is 90Hz.

I am planning to buy recent AVR's that give more cross over options but what good are those options like 120, 150 etc when my sub cant handle them.

The higher the sub is tuned the more likely you will be able to locate it.

doesnt matter to me as I have the option to put it right in the middle of the front speakers and my main interest is 2ch music. So if it sounds directional it is not at all a problem to me.

The point of bass trapping is to reduce the amount of interaction the room has with sound under 300hz. If you room has too much echo in the mid and high frequencies, eq'ing it won't make any difference. Echo in the bass range is called ringing and it can't be eq'd away either. The peaks and dips that every room will get at specific frequencies is caused by the interaction with the room dimensions (modes). Broadband bass trapping fixes ringing and reduces peaks and dips.

You can use a screwdriver to bang in a nail but a hammer works much better.

Echo is not my problem. I did send full range to the BFD late last night and I am able to tone down all those peaks over 100 like 111, 142.5, 160 etc. when I buy better speakers and amp/receiver I dont want to rely on the sound quality of a $99 product like BFD. Then why spend all the money on expensive gear.

In my opinion room trap is like going in uncharted waters. I would spend several 100s of dollars getting those traps and wont know where to put them to tone down the peaks. Sure hammer is better but if I cant see where I am hitting in the dark what good is all the power of a hammer?

I'll try to explain why setting the cross over on the sub lower may help.

First a cross over is slope. It doesnt just stop at 90hz.

So if your mains have a peak at 111 and you sub does too, the
two add up to give you a bigger peak.

Now I will agree with some of the above poster's that it is
a room issue.

You can treat the room, you can move the sub, you can move your
speakers or a combination of all of them.

Are your speakers rear ported? If so moving them farther away from
the wall can help.

Best customized solution is to go with passive cinema subs 18” and then use a loudspeaker management crossover system to tailor each and ever loudspeaker to handle lows within there technical tolerance level.

So don’t sod around if you what to customize the system, go with an affordable DCX2496 its got more then enough crossover slopes to drop into the system, the bitching thing about it is you’ll need load of them because you might as well do the whole system!;)

http://www.nordiskmusik.se/Global/Produkter-bilder/Behringer_DCX2496_%20stor.jpg

It sounds to me like the issue is more with the mains than the sub, but depending on what the sub is doing up there it could have a big impact on those peaks and nulls.

I have no idea if your sub is inferior to the x sub, both seem to be good products for their intended class, by inferior, I was referring to choosing the X sub simply for its ability to play up to 150Hz when there are other more capable subs that may not be able to. If you can do room treatments, they are definitely the way to go, unfortunately many people can't have them in their rooms, they cost too much money and aren't acceptable looking, but the improvements that can be had should not be ignored.

The issue is with the mains for the reason that my sub cant handle over 100 and that I have peaks at 111, 142, 160. I tried sending full range to the BFD (disconnected the sub) and was able to tone down those 3 peaks. I am sure the Sunfire True sub Junior is a much better product than a $199 x-sub.
It may sound better in its operating range (some 30-100) than the x-sub and it could be much faster but it doesnt help me as the bass still sounds boomy due to the peaks over 100.

Yep room treatments are damn expensive. I would have to hire a pro or spend some $500-1000 to treat the room and like I said after all that there is no guarantee that those 3 peaks would be controlled as there is no way to pin point to those frequencies using the traps.

So the simplest solution to me is to use a sub that can go to 150Hz or as high as possible to just send the bass alone via BFD to the sub. This way I am not depending on a $99 product for the full range and like I said it doesnt matter to me if the sub sounds directional as I will put it right in the middle.

This is more like 2.35 vs 16:9. I dont mind cropping a 2.35 at the ends to get 16:9 as I hate the bars. But others want to see them as the director intended. I dont care what the director intended I only care if I can watch it without the damn bars :-) Some folks will ask me to buy an anamophic lens for $2000. Again an expensive proposition like room treatments!

I'll try to explain why setting the cross over on the sub lower may help.

First a cross over is slope. It doesnt just stop at 90hz.

So if your mains have a peak at 111 and you sub does too, the
two add up to give you a bigger peak.

Now I will agree with some of the above poster's that it is
a room issue.

You can treat the room, you can move the sub, you can move your
speakers or a combination of all of them.

Are your speakers rear ported? If so moving them farther away from
the wall can help.


I disagree. My sub cant go much over 100. Like I said I didnt measure anything significant at 111 . I dont know why people keep saying that my sub is a problem if it just cant handle those frequencies and I have said many times that I measured peaks from the mains alone at 111, 142, 160

Speakers are front ported and 4 feet from the back wall and side walls.

Sure room is always the cause as that is the one that interacts. But like I said if I have an easy way to kill the peaks using BFD why try to swim the uncharted waters. All I need is a sub that can go higher. I am not looking for a perfect sub. I read about the x-sub review at Audioholics and the reviewer doesnt seem to have an issue with the fact that it has a higher cross over.

Best customized solution is to go with passive cinema subs 18” and then use a loudspeaker management crossover system to tailor each and ever loudspeaker to handle lows within there technical tolerance level.

So don’t sod around if you what to customize the system, go with an affordable DCX2496 its got more then enough crossover slopes to drop into the system, the bitching thing about it is you’ll need load of them because you might as well do the whole system!;)

http://www.nordiskmusik.se/Global/Produkter-bilder/Behringer_DCX2496_%20stor.jpg

18'' sub will also weight 100lbs :-)
I cant handle more than some 50lbs.
X-sub would fit my bill

Rewinding a bit

1) what did you measure your room with?
2) how many listening positions did you measure? it is unlikely that every spot has the same peaks
3) without a graph or numbers, we have no idea how big the peaks are
4) don't overthink bass traps, they go in any "corner", i.e 2 adjoining boundaries, floor+wall, wall+ceiling
5) eq is a poor solution, you fix one spot and another is made worse or not corrected
6) every room has ringing (bass echo), you just aren't tuned into what that sounds like. When you do know what it sounds like, every untreated room you hear afterwards sounds like a boomfest of slop
7) if you run a sub up to 150hz it will lessen the spread of your stereo image, I also find it sounds very "boxy", "cardboardy". Stereo midbass arrays are the only way to run so high without wrecking the imaging and getting a "slow" midbass presentation.

Using 2" fibreglass you can build 2' wide corner traps of 2'x8'x4" thick for about $32. Then add some fabric and a simple box frame, and you're might be around $40-50 each. No eq or different sub is going to improve your room as much.

I disagree. My sub cant go much over 100. Like I said I didnt measure anything significant at 111 . I dont know why people keep saying that my sub is a problem if it just cant handle those frequencies and I have said many times that I measured peaks from the mains alone at 111, 142, 160

Speakers are front ported and 4 feet from the back wall and side walls.

Sure room is always the cause as that is the one that interacts. But like I said if I have an easy way to kill the peaks using BFD why try to swim the uncharted waters. All I need is a sub that can go higher. I am not looking for a perfect sub. I read about the x-sub review at Audioholics and the reviewer doesnt seem to have an issue with the fact that it has a higher cross over.

You very well may be able to solve the problem the way you are thinking of, but the higher you cross over, the more critical the sub location becomes. You are going to need to locate the sub in between the front mains otherwise localization will be a problem. Ideally, consider a pair of x-subs and keep them near each front main.

18'' sub will also weight 100lbs :-)
I cant handle more than some 50lbs.
X-sub would fit my bill

Well you can use the other option smaller subs but go with the DCX2496 you won’t be disappointed, providing you what to customize or you bugger around and still get no where.;)

Some subs allow you to bypass their crossover completely (unfiltered input). So, how high they can reach is not determined by their own crossover's maximum allowable setting but by the physics (intended or not) of their design.

very good point!

yes I read the sunfire true sub junior manual and it does provide the bypass option. So all I need now is to get an AVR (I have narrowed down to
Marantz SR4002 or Yamaha RX-V663) that allows high cross over.

I will tackle the directionality of the sound/locatable sub. I at least wont have an inferior sub.

Problem solved :-)

I have a JBL sub12 with the x-over set at 200 Hz at the receiver. Works great.

very good point!

yes I read the sunfire true sub junior manual and it does provide the bypass option. So all I need now is to get an AVR (I have narrowed down to
Marantz SR4002 or Yamaha RX-V663) that allows high cross over.

I will tackle the directionality of the sound/locatable sub. I at least wont have an inferior sub.

Problem solved :-)

Bypassing the crossover is not the only issue. The other issue is how high your sub can reproduce cleanly. How high in frequency is the Sunfire rated?

Bypassing the crossover is not the only issue. The other issue is how high your sub can reproduce cleanly. How high in frequency is the Sunfire rated?

yes I just realized. I called "Euphoria" too soon. Another good point :-)

The freq. response of my sub is from 22hz to only 100Hz.
I sent full signal to the sub and set the cross over to by pass
but it rolls off from 90 or so and I cant get high reading on the
SPL from 90 or so.

I guess I will try all the options mentioned here including traps, in the
order of increasing complexity/affordability

Pardon me for getting frustrated. The boomy bass just drives me nuts.

Rewinding a bit

1) what did you measure your room with?
2) how many listening positions did you measure? it is unlikely that every spot has the same peaks
3) without a graph or numbers, we have no idea how big the peaks are
4) don't overthink bass traps, they go in any "corner", i.e 2 adjoining boundaries, floor+wall, wall+ceiling
5) eq is a poor solution, you fix one spot and another is made worse or not corrected
6) every room has ringing (bass echo), you just aren't tuned into what that sounds like. When you do know what it sounds like, every untreated room you hear afterwards sounds like a boomfest of slop
7) if you run a sub up to 150hz it will lessen the spread of your stereo image, I also find it sounds very "boxy", "cardboardy". Stereo midbass arrays are the only way to run so high without wrecking the imaging and getting a "slow" midbass presentation.

Using 2" fibreglass you can build 2' wide corner traps of 2'x8'x4" thick for about $32. Then add some fabric and a simple box frame, and you're might be around $40-50 each. No eq or different sub is going to improve your room as much.


I guess I would give that a shot. In fact my coworker mentioned about fiber glass as he is doing his HT. But since it involves cutting fiber glass (wearing mask etc.) I didnt consider it seriously. If it is not much of a health hazard I will try that.

I have a JBL sub12 with the x-over set at 200 Hz at the receiver. Works great.

The spec says freq. response of sub12 is 25Hz to 150Hz. I was wondering how you were able to use it at 200hz.

The SVS SB12 runs flat up to about 200hz. I run a pair of those crossed over at 150hz

yep.
Also at 40lbs this seems like a viable option though a bit out of
my budget. With their risk free trial I guess I will give this a shot.

So any takes for my old Sunfire Tru Sub Junior? :-)

I dont know why people keep saying that my sub is a problem.....................No one has said that. YOU started the thread focusing on a new sub as a possible solution to your problem. Everyone has told you that that is NOT the solution.

very good point!

yes I read the sunfire true sub junior manual and it does provide the bypass option. So all I need now is to get an AVR (I have narrowed down to
Marantz SR4002 or Yamaha RX-V663) that allows high cross over.

I will tackle the directionality of the sound/locatable sub. I at least wont have an inferior sub.

Problem solved :-)No. Just because you can bypass the sub's crossover does not meant that it will then reach as high as you are needing (wishing). It still may only be able to reach 120Hz.

(edit: Sorry, I didn't read further. I see you have discovered this.)

The spec says freq. response of sub12 is 25Hz to 150Hz. I was wondering how you were able to use it at 200hz.That sub has a variable low-pass filter adjustable from 25Hz - 150Hz. But (I think) it also has unfiltered input capability. Now, whether it will really reach up to 200Hz, we don't know. And what his FR looks like, we don't know. Maybe the sub rolls off before 200Hz but his FR is compensatively peaky, say, between 150Hz - 200Hz

Have you tried plugging your speakers' ports?

That sub has a variable low-pass filter adjustable from 25Hz - 150Hz. But (I think) it also has unfiltered input capability. Now, whether it will really reach up to 200Hz, we don't know. And what his FR looks like, we don't know. Maybe the sub roll's off before 200Hz but his FR is compensatorily peaky, say, between 150Hz - 200Hz

I see that you highly regard the SVS SB12 for music (in another thread) and I also noticed that the frequency response goes all the way to some 200Hz and it is pretty flat. So this SVS SB12 wont do what I am looking for? If localized bass is the main issue I could just put it in between the main speakers. It even goes to 300Hz! It is $699 but if I can get some
$300 for my sunfire I could still consider the SVS. But will anyone pay $300 for an used old sunfire true sub junior? May be $250. The lowest price in the Audiogon graph is $280.

Have you tried plugging your speakers' ports?

Nope. I guess I will try that this weekend. I have a lot of foam/spunge though not supplied with the speaker. I could carefully squeeze them in.

I see that you highly regard the SVS SB12 for music (in another thread) and I also noticed that the frequency response goes all the way to some 200Hz and it is pretty flat. So this SVS SB12 wont do what I am looking for? If localized bass is the main issue I could just put it in between the main speakers. It even goes to 300Hz! It is $699 but if I can get some
$300 for my sunfire I could still consider the SVS. But will anyone pay $300 for an used old sunfire true sub junior? May be $250. The lowest price in the Audiogon graph is $280.There are other disadvantages to running the crossover that high. One obvious one is that the speakers may actually be more adept, accurate, and articulate at reproducing the bass in that range than the subwoofer.

Honestly, the logic behind your proposed solution to your problem is not entirely sound:o. Getting a new sub that is capable of reaching higher so that the room peaks are now covered by the sub so that you can then use the BFD to tame the peaks at the sub seems a bit of a roundabout way of dealing with the issue.

How BIG are the peaks you are describing?

As a bit of an aside, the idea has been posited that a "musical sub" is actually one that can reach higher, FR-wise. Not that the sub will ever really have to perform at, for example, 300Hz with the usual crossover settings that most people use, but with the idea being that this sort of sub, because of its capability up high, will be more articulate at the higher frequencies (i.e 40Hz to 80Hz) that are more commonly encountered and most important for articulate reproduction of music. That sealed subs are often, simply by virtue of their design and the physics involved, usually more capable at the high end may be the reason for the "myth" that sealed subwoofers are better "music subs". (Or, likewise, simply by virtue of THEIR design and the physics involved, ported subs may not be as articulate at the higher frequencies needed for a sub to be considered "musical".)

Have you tried plugging your speakers' ports?


This was going to be my next suggestion. try it.

It really depends on the capabilities of your main speakers. If they are able to extend down to around 35hz - 40hz, and you cross your sub around 80hz for example, those mid bass and upper bass frequencies would be handled by the drivers in your main speakers at a point above where the ports have to play a significant role. Same with the sub. So for music, the drivers, and not the ports would be actually handling the load. Even though most of today's subs are capable of playing those mid and upper bass frequencies fairly well, they are really not designed or intended to do so. These are sub woofers, after all, not mid bass drivers. IMO, the mains should really shoulder the load down to at least 45hz or so, and let the sub take it from there on down. If the mains are capable, this, IMO, would render the best natural sound.

Why tune your sub so high if you have bass capable mains? If not then I must have misread something. :confused:

If your speakers go down to 40Hz then cross the sub at 40Hz etc.

Have you tried to check those frequncies when the sub is off?

If they still exist with it turned off then the problem is not your sub, its your mains and/or room. You might not want to sell it, thinking that another sub would solve this problem (it won't).

Woofers play in the 90hz to 400hz range.
Sub-woofers are 90hz and below.

I have yet to hear a subwoofer that sounded good above 90hz, and I own a Velodyne Servo HGS-10.

I run the BFD with a full signal and have no problems:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBfFqVo-MM

Why tune your sub so high if you have bass capable mains? If not then I must have misread something.Have you tried to check those frequncies when the sub is off?

If they still exist with it turned off then the problem is not your sub, its your mains and/or room. You might not want to sell it, thinking that another sub would solve this problem (it won't).He knows it is his speakers (now). Whether it is a good idea or NOT, he wants to cross his sub high so that his sub is covering where those peaks are, instead of his speakers, so that he can use his BFD to tame the peaks at the subwoofer.

I don't really understand his aversion to sending a full-range signal through the BFD. I really do not know how they work, exactly, specifically the connection options.

Why tune your sub so high if you have bass capable mains? If not then I must have misread something. :confused:

If your speakers go down to 40Hz then cross the sub at 40Hz etc.

nope I dont have bass capable mains. The main reason I want to send up to 150 Hz to the sub is not to send full signal to the BFD.

Now to answer my aversion towards not sending full signal to the BFD:

Why would I reply on a $99 product for the sound quality when I am
spending $699 on a Rotel RB-1070, $549 on the Marantz SR4002, $1900
on a Dynaudio Audience 72.

Have you tried to check those frequncies when the sub is off?

If they still exist with it turned off then the problem is not your sub, its your mains and/or room. You might not want to sell it, thinking that another sub would solve this problem (it won't).

Woofers play in the 90hz to 400hz range.
Sub-woofers are 90hz and below.

I have yet to hear a subwoofer that sounded good above 90hz, and I own a Velodyne Servo HGS-10.

I run the BFD with a full signal and have no problems:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBfFqVo-MM

The SVS SB-12 has a frequency range of 300Hz with very little drop at 200hz.
There is really no rule set on stone that sub should only do 90 and below. A sub is nothing but just another woofer, if I am not mistaken.

Why is it that people have such aversion towards playing the sub so high. Have you all tried it and found that it sounds terrible?
There were at least 3 people here who said they are setting the cross over at 150Hz! If they found it terrible they wouldnt have done that.

It just depends on individual needs. If there is a sub that can go up to 200Hz and if the main drawback of setting it so high is that it becomes directional, then that is not at all my problem. I will just place it at the middle (I am single so I dont need my wife's permission to place my sub in my room :-))

Like I said this is just like people telling me not to crop a 2.35 movie when I prefer to crop its sides to fit my 16:9 screen!

So if there is a sub that can go up to 200-300Hz and if it $699 then there is no harm in trying it. Also like I said before I just dont prefer to reply on a $99 product for the sound quality when I am going to spend some $3500 for my gear.

Have you tried to check those frequncies when the sub is off?

I run the BFD with a full signal and have no problems:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBfFqVo-MM

yes I did mention before that I have measured the mains alone and they have a very significant peak at 142.5 hz measuring 10db higher than many other frequencies.

I too have sent full range to BFD and that is how I am able to tone this
142.5 Hz but I just dont prefer to use a $99 product to filter the entire range. I prefer to filter only the bass region (up to some 150Hz) and reply on more expensive proven gear like Rotel, Dynaudio to deal with the mids and highs as I am particular that I dont compromise the quality of the mids and higs for the 2ch music. So I need a sub that can go that high.

I hope I have made my case clear after so many posts, telling the same thing over and over and over.

I have narrowed down to the SVS SB-12 and hopefully I can get
some $275-300 for my sun fire.
Sunfire True Sub Jr. is a great sub as long as I am using it under some
90Hz. It starts to drop a lot after 90 Hz.

Now to answer my aversion towards not sending full signal to the BFD:

Why would I reply on a $99 product for the sound quality when I am
spending $699 on a Rotel RB-1070, $549 on the Marantz SR4002, $1900
on a Dynaudio Audience 72.What does the price really have to do with anything, here? The BFD is either transparent or it's not, no matter how much it costs. How much were your interconnects?

It really depends on the capabilities of your main speakers. If they are able to extend down to around 35hz - 40hz, and you cross your sub around 80hz for example, those mid bass and upper bass frequencies would be handled by the drivers in your main speakers at a point above where the ports have to play a significant role. Same with the sub. So for music, the drivers, and not the ports would be actually handling the load. Even though most of today's subs are capable of playing those mid and upper bass frequencies fairly well, they are really not designed or intended to do so. These are sub woofers, after all, not mid bass drivers. IMO, the mains should really shoulder the load down to at least 45hz or so, and let the sub take it from there on down. If the mains are capable, this, IMO, would render the best natural sound.


Let me explain for one last time what my problem is.

My problem is not that my mains cant go down to 35-40Hz.
I have a sub that can go down to 35-40Hz. So I dont need
a main to go down that low.

My problem is that I have a peak over 100Hz, a nasty one
at 142.5Hz that measured 88db. It did not reduce when I plugged the ports.
I can tone it down if I send full range to the BFD as I can tone down anything with the BFD. But like I said a million times before I dont want a $99 product to process the full range when I am going to invest some $3000-3500on my audio gear. I prefer to send just the bass, up to 150Hz to the sub via BFD. For this reason I need a sub that can go higher than my current Sunfire Junior which cant go much more than some 90Hz.

SVS SB-12 is my best bet.

I guess I wont explain my problem again :-) I will try to sell my Sunfire :-)
also will look for places where I can get fiber glass for the bass trap.

I too have sent full range to BFD and that is how I am able to tone this
142.5 Hz but I just dont prefer to use a $99 product to filter the entire range. I prefer to filter only the bass region (up to some 150Hz) and reply on more expensive proven gear like Rotel, Dynaudio to deal with the mids and highs as I am particular that I dont compromise the quality of the mids and higs for the 2ch music. So I need a sub that can go that high.

I hope I have made my case clear after so many posts, telling the same thing over and over and over.



Actually that aversion makes much more logical sense than many folks' concerns over the so-called sonic advantages of exotic speaker wires and connectors. Think about it: What is way more likely to degrade a full-range signal? Passing it through a complicated extra electronic analog to digital to analog pathway or using a plain copper wire instead of some exotic wire?

Why is it that people have such aversion towards playing the sub so high. Have you all tried it and found that it sounds terrible?
There were at least 3 people here who said they are setting the cross over at 150Hz! If they found it terrible they wouldnt have done that. We've given you several different reasons why it is not ideal. The people who use a high crossover setting MUST use a high crossover setting due to the capabilities (or lack of) of their satellites.


If there is a sub that can go up to 200Hz and if the main drawback of setting it so high is that it becomes directional, then that is not at all my problem.I told you that your speakers were MUCH BETTER at reproducing the type of bass that is most commonly encountered with music, 40Hz and up, but especially higher than 80Hz. There is also considerable stereo separation at the higher bass frequencies that you are going to lose.


Like I said this is just like people telling me not to crop a 2.35 movie when I prefer to crop its sides to fit my 16:9 screen!LOL. :rolleyes: Do what you want to do, then.

What does the price really have to do with anything, here? The BFD is either transparent or it's not, no matter how much it costs. How much were your interconnects?

It is not the price man. it is the quality of the product. Why would I want a $99 product to process the entire music and then play it via the rest of the $3000 gear! It doesnt matter how expensive the interconnects are if the quality of the main item (BFD) may not be as good as the rest of the $3000 gear. A $99 item is not going to use top quality A/D, D/A converters and circuitry. The difference may or may not be audible but I am just not comfortable with that approach because it is my $3500 :-)

I do use decent quality interconnects. I use the Audioquest sidewinder cables for the left/right audio and the subwoofer. They are not $50/foot but they are also not like the Red/White noodles.

For the BFD I need to use the 1/4inch to RCA adaptor and I am only using the Radioshack adaptors. But once I am happy with the results of the bass filter from BFD I will get good quality RCA to 1/4inch cable for the sub instead of uisng the adapters.

Actually that aversion makes much more logical sense than many folks' concerns over the so-called sonic advantages of exotic speaker wires and connectors.But his proposed solution to his "peaks" makes no logical sense, really.

Which do you think would be more preferable. His "plan" or using the BFD to tame his peaks.

Frankly, I'm not sure that most people would use equalization to tame peaks at those frequencies anyway.

It is not the price man. it is the quality of the product. Why would I want a $99 product to process the entire music and then play it via the rest of the $3000 gear!LOL, jeezus. As I said, what does the price have to do with it? The price obviously IS what you are basing your assessment of the perceived quality upon so, apparently, it IS the price............ man. :rolleyes:

In my opinion, the best way to tame those peaks would be a combo of repositoning the speakers and acoustic room treatments. Moving the speakers as little as 6" or a foot or so can make a difference.

What I'm saying that I don't disagree with keeping the eq out of the full-range path. If any degradation does take place, it's going to be most noticeable in the mids and highs.

After reading this and saying HUH? several times it seems that raising the price of the BFD to $1599 would solve his issue.

After reading this and saying HUH? several times it seems that raising the price of the BFD to $1599 would solve his issue.
LOL :D

Actually that aversion makes much more logical sense than many folks' concerns over the so-called sonic advantages of exotic speaker wires and connectors. Think about it: What is way more likely to degrade a full-range signal? Passing it through a complicated extra electronic analog to digital to analog pathway or using a plain copper wire instead of some exotic wire?

We can argue about this for ever. I am just not comfortable using a
$99 product to process the entire music and then try to enjoy that using a $3000 audio gear.

Sure you guys have given a lot of valuable information and I will pursue those that are best suited for my needs based on complexity, affordability etc.

SVS gives 45-day risk free trial and the shipping cost to me is $25.
So I dont mind wasting $50 to see if that option works. We can sit here and argue about what is "ethical" and what is not about using a subwoofer. No one here seems to have tried that option to so vehimantly deny that possibility. If it works for me and if I like that sound thats all it matters.

If I dont care about what is going on at the ends of a 2.35 movie, I would rather crop the ends than try complicated and/or expensive options like a
$2000 anamorphic lens or a $1500 morotized masking system etc. Same logic applies here. Others may want to see what the director intended but I dont care what the heck the director intended. I care about what works for me :-)

So I will order the SVS SB-12 and heck if it doesnt work all I lose is 50 bucks. I feel it is worth spending 50 bucks to find out how bad it can sound after all.

LOL, jeezus. As I said, what does the price have to do with it? The price obviously IS what you are basing your assessment of the perceived quality upon so, apparently, it IS the price............ man. :rolleyes:

Well like I said that is my preference. Lets not let this one go ugly to the point that the mod has to close it. You have given some useful tips and lets just leave it there. It is up to me to decide what options I want to pursue. You cant make the decisions for me.

We can sit here and argue about what is "ethical" and what is not about using a subwoofer.I guess whether it is ethical depends upon what you are using it for. :eek: :D


If I dont care about what is going on at the ends of a 2.35 movie, I would rather crop the ends than try complicated and/or expensive options like a $2000 anamorphic lens or a $1500 morotized masking system etc. Same logic applies here. Others may want to see what the director intended but I dont care what the heck the director intended. I care about what works for me :-)Just get a bigger TV. ;) That's a much better solution than what you are proposing for your +100Hz peaks. What? You think you are wasting your TV if you watch the 2.35:1 movie at the ratio that was intended?


If you are wanting some affirmation that what you are doing is a great idea, I doubt you are going to get it. So what is the point of your continuing to post, then? Do whatever you want to do.

I guess whether it is ethical depends upon what you are using it for. :eek: :D


Just get a bigger TV. ;) That's a much better solution than what you are proposing for your +100Hz peaks. What? You think you are wasting your TV if you watch the 2.35:1 movie at the ratio that was intended?


If you are wanting some affirmation that what you are doing is a great idea, I doubt you are going to get it. So what is the point of your continuing to post, then? Do whatever you want to do.

I dont have a TV. I have a projector with 76'' screen!
I still dont like the bars. You really should not assume a lot of things
and make some remarks.


I am not asking for affirmation of what I am doing but I just ask that people dont say that what I am doing is wrong. Everyone has opinions/views and no one's opinions/views are a standard for others. So stop this bickering and move on.

I dont have a TV. I have a projector with 76'' screen!Sorry, but you really have no excuse for not watching 2.35:1 movies at their intended ratio. :rolleyes:

No pity from me. You oughta see 2.35:1 movies on my 32" 4:3 CRT. :(

For those of you who wanted to know the measurements. Here they are.

This is only with the main speakers. I have the Klipsch RB81 bookshelf. So they dont go very low. I connected the OPPO 980 analog outputs to BFD (DSP1124P) and then connected the BFD outputs to my old Yamaha
RX-V795a with the mains set to "large". Subwoofer totally disconnected.

I have set 5 filters at 55,75,97.5, 142.5 and 163 Hz with varying bandwidths and cuts. The cuts are -12,-6,-8,-12,-8 db respectively.
After some 3 tweaks I am able to bring down the peaks. It is still not
perfect i.e not within 3db throughout. I guess I have more tweaking to do.
Then I will have to compare this with what I would get by running the SVS SB-12 at high cross over.

Here is another tweak

I guess I will live with this one for a while and see how it goes

The spec says freq. response of sub12 is 25Hz to 150Hz. I was wondering how you were able to use it at 200hz.

If you set the switch to LFE it bypasses the built-in crossover and uses the one in the receiver. I ran Audyssey and it set the crossover at 200 Hz. It blends really well. There is some localization but I can live with it since my sub is close to my mains.

If you set the switch to LFE it bypasses the built-in crossover and uses the one in the receiver. I ran Audyssey and it set the crossover at 200 Hz. It blends really well. There is some localization but I can live with it since my sub is close to my mains.

Good to hear that.

Here is my final curve. Once I get the sub (most likely SVS SB-12)
and a new AVR I will do the same by sending only 20-200Hz to BFD
instead of full range.
BTW I used the REW software just to apply the filters as I could
not use it to get the response.

Mupi,

I would suggest that you go over to the dedicated HT section of AVS and get some free advice from the pros. I guy like Bryan Pape can tell you exactly where you would want to treat your room and can tell you how to setup the receiver and speakers. If you want to go into more details for a few hundred dollars he can do a full analysis of your room and help solve your problem. I don't think buying a different sub or playing with the x-overs will satisfy you.

What speakers is the OP using?

What speakers is the OP using?

Klipsch RB81 bookshelf, Sunfire True Sub Junior

Mupi,

I would suggest that you go over to the dedicated HT section of AVS and get some free advice from the pros. I guy like Bryan Pape can tell you exactly where you would want to treat your room and can tell you how to setup the receiver and speakers. If you want to go into more details for a few hundred dollars he can do a full analysis of your room and help solve your problem. I don't think buying a different sub or playing with the x-overs will satisfy you.

Excellent suggestion. You may be able to eq down a 15db peak, but you'll still be left with very nasty ringing. Take a look at the waterfall plots in REW and you'll see what I mean.


Scott

Build a few bass traps. Running the sub higher is the wrong solution (and may not work at all).

any suggestions for the bass traps?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13810229#post13810229

well the boomy bass is gone but after some A-B listening with and without BFD, I notice significant distortion of the highs. I am sending full range to BFD and I attribute this distortion to poor/cheap circuitry. Someone posted a sarcastic remark saying that how much can a couple of converters distort the signal and others again were sarcastic about the price vs quality issue I had. Well get yourself a BFD, send a full range signal and hear for yourself. I hear it myself and thats all matters to me, not the opinion of people who do not have the BFD!

I am going to try the FBQ2496 as Behringer claims that it has better circuitry. Will see how much improvement in sound 50 bucks can bring. Also this time I will only send the bass and not full range.

I am also going to try the OC 703 panels based on the suggestions by many and that proven fact that bass traps reduce the peaks and remove/improve the nulls. I am also going to try the OC 703 as absorbers on the walls.

what is a BFD? :confused:

We can argue about this for ever. I am just not comfortable using a
$99 product to process the entire music and then try to enjoy that using a $3000 audio gear.

Thats fine but you do realize $3000 isnt much for audio gear either so its not like you have a great system anyways to even worry about a $100 product also $99 product is a GREAT product and it does exactly what its meant to do and that is properly EQ your sub system. Heck I have almost $3K in subs alone (Thats DIY not comercial, comerical performance value is probably 5 to 10K) and I use that $99 product and I just received a sweet little $100 product from eD (its the eQ.2) which is EXTREMELY easy to use.

Also you do realize that $10 speaker cable works the same as $100 spaeker cable as long as its the same gauge? I hope you do because this is a science forum first and you are simply wasting money on anything more expensive.

Just repeat after me......$$$ will not predict performance in the audio world.

This is only with the main speakers. I have the Klipsch RB81 bookshelf. So they dont go very low. I connected the OPPO 980 analog outputs to BFD (DSP1124P) and then connected the BFD outputs to my old Yamaha
RX-V795a with the mains set to "large". Subwoofer totally disconnected.


well the boomy bass is gone but after some A-B listening with and without BFD, I notice significant distortion of the highs. I am sending full range to BFD and I attribute this distortion to poor/cheap circuitry. Someone posted a sarcastic remark saying that how much can a couple of converters distort the signal and others again were sarcastic about the price vs quality issue I had. Well get yourself a BFD, send a full range signal and hear for yourself. I hear it myself and thats all matters to me, not the opinion of people who do not have the BFD!


First I would never suggest EQing mains with the BFD period. its simply a sub woofer EQing device.

Second, I will run comparisons myself again to hear the differences.

btw, the FBQ2496 is a better product but you might want to research Rane products too because they are even better.

In the end all this is probably a waste of time because I believe the best 80Hz -> 150Hz sound is obtained through midbass products like the SVS or Velodyne midbass products.

My sub systems will do 15 Hz to 80 Hz, my midbass setup does 80 Hz to 150Hz and my bookshelves does 150Hz and above.

I found this in the avsforum archives......

Because the BFD suffers from low level mains harmonic components in its output and one or two small spikes in the noise floor at higher frequencies, plus its noise floor overall isn't as low as one might hope. The degradation in signal/noise is undetectable when feeding a subwoofer as most is outside the bandwidth of the sub, but it might be noticeable on the main channels if using sensitive speakers.

This supports what you have found and it supports what I said about using the BFD for anything except Subs.

...................I believe the best 80Hz -> 150Hz sound is obtained through midbass products like the SVS or Velodyne midbass products.Hell, the best 80Hz - 150Hz performance is probably that that is already provided by his speakers.

Hell, the best 80Hz - 150Hz performance is probably that that is already provided by his speakers.

Well, I have the same RB81s and they are connected to 200 Watt monoblocks so I know what they can do...they are pretty good bookshelf speakers on their own but when I added my new midbass solution too the mix (Velodyn SC8s ) I just think the low end sounded better for me.

I think it has to do with the head room available since the SC8s are driven by 1250 Watts. Who knows, I have been seeking that extra something at the 80 Hz to 120 or 150 Hz range for awhile and I think I have found it....I have to give myself a few more weeks with it and then I will turn it off and go back to my original setup to see if I like that any more.

Heck many of the DIYers that know about my IB sub system say I should be able to get incredible performance out of that setup @ 100 Hz so why do I need at midbass system at all...who knows.... :eek:

Here are the 3 curves. Sub only, main only, sub+main (fixed cross over on my old Yamaha ay 90Hz, mains set as small, bass to sub woofer)

Lets ignore tha fact that it is not in log scale.

When I play the sub alone it seems to have a clear dip between
60-70 Hz. It is rated as 30-100Hz and rolls off after 90 or so. I should not have seen the peak at 104Hz. May be that is the characteristic of the room!

Now when I play sub+main (main set as small) I noticed that even though my receiver says the cross over is 90hz I was able to hear the mains starting from some 60Hz and that is probably why the dip that I saw with the sub alone between 60-70Hz has gone up. Now why is my main playing starting at 60Hz when my receiver has a fixed cross over at 90Hz. I also put my hand on the woofer of my main and clearly it was playing starting at 60Hz.

Yes I have set the main to small and bass to SW. May be my receiver is old and the cross over circuits have gone bad?

What I am saying is that the curve of sub+main should have looked similar to that of sub only for frequencies less than some 90hz. After 90hz I see that the curve of sub+main is similar to main only which makes sense. I dont understand why the region 60-70 does not look right, unless my receiver has gone bad. No matter what my room is, the mains should not be playing from 60hz when I have set them to small and the cross over is 90hz.
Time for a new AVR?

because the your crossover in your receiver isn't a brick wall, it's more of a slope where your mains start to roll off. Usually at 12db per octave but that would depend on the receiver. So if your crossover is set at 90 you would still get information which would roll off to 12db down one octave below.

because the your crossover in your receiver isn't a brick wall, it's more of a slope where your mains start to roll off. Usually at 12db per octave but that would depend on the receiver. So if your crossover is set at 90 you would still get information which would roll off to 12db down one octave below.

Yeah but his red line should go back above 80 dB @ around 80 Hz....to me that line tells me there isnt a high pass filter set at all at 90Hz but just some equalization down 12 dB @ 90 Hz. the high pass filter looks like its set at 60 Hz.

Those charts just dont look right and that is what he has been posting and wondering about.

I would suggest trying another AVR to remove doubts!!

Yeah but his red line should go back above 80 dB @ around 80 Hz....to me that line tells me there isnt a high pass filter set at all at 90Hz but just some equalization down 12 dB @ 90 Hz. the high pass filter looks like its set at 60 Hz.

Those charts just dont look right and that is what he has been posting and wondering about.

I would suggest trying another AVR to remove doubts!!

Note that "main only" is when the main is set to "LARGE" and bass is sent to main. So the red line can go to 80Hz at 80db but the main+sub line should have closely followed the sub only line below 90Hz but it does not.

you know what I noticed that the mains are always playing i.e not starting from 60hz, there is sound even at 50 but ofcourse it will not be as loud. So clearly the cross over is not working. I thought last time I did the measurement I did not hear the main at anything less than some 80hz when it was set to small. There is really nothing to check as the menu on my AVR is straight forward, just change the main from small to large and bass from main to SW. nope the bass is not set to "both".

Anyway...I will check everything again. I was planning to order the Marantz SR4002 anyway.. as my AVR is so old. Now I have a good reason to jump over the fence and order the SR4002 :-)

you know what I noticed that the mains are always playing i.e not starting from 60hz, there is sound even at 50 but ofcourse it will not be as loud. So clearly the cross over is not working

Well, crossovers are sloped so if its set at 60 Hz you will here sound at 50Hz so at LARGE your speakers go to 60Hz and yes you should hear something at 50Hz too....btw, at 80 Hz you might have a huge room null!?!

Your sub alone really has a bad chart too.....null at 62Hz?? and crossover at 80Hz?

Well, crossovers are sloped so if its set at 60 Hz you will here sound at 50Hz so at LARGE your speakers go to 60Hz and yes you should hear something at 50Hz too....btw, at 80 Hz you might have a huge room null!?!

Your sub alone really has a bad chart too.....null at 62Hz?? and crossover at 80Hz?

My AVR has a fixed cross over at 90hz. So there is no way I can hear anything from the mains at 50Hz even if the RB81's are capable of going that low. Yeah the sub has a bad null at 60Hz and the other null is at 83Hz

Unlike the current AVR's, I cant change the crossover on my old Yamaha receiver. When I set the main speakers to "small" the crossover is automatically set to 90hz as per the manual. Looks like this is not working right. It is as if there is some leak in the cross over circuitry that there is always some bass sent to the mains.

Anyway... I just placed the order for the Marantz SR4002. Will see what happens to the curves with the Marantz. I am also going to get the OC 703 panels soon. So all this should eventually get resolved positively.

I was debating whether to get the Denon 1908 or the Marantz SR4002. Marantz cross over is 80,100,120,150,180. Denon gives 40,60,80,90,100,110,
120,150,200,250 which would be great if I going to use the SVS SB-12 but has no pre-outs. After what people have adviced I may not try the
SVS-SB12. So the pre-outs on the Marantz are more important to me.

well I tried the bass trap (OC 703 2'')

I really didnt see much difference. I tried the 6' stack and also
tried just the 2'' 2x4 panels at the corners. I thought a single
panel at the corner made some improvement than the stack,
but either way I still measured pretty much similar peaks and
nulls, may be the peaks dropped by 2db but that isnt worth
taking all the trouble of building the trap.

So next thing I am trying is the SVS sub

like i mentioned before post this over in the dedicated HT section. The corner traps are a good idea, i assume you did them in both front corners, but there might be more to your room than just corner traps.