I was reading an article that said that manufacturers are starting to pull out of RP as flat panels are where the profitability is.

I had an LCD based Epson Home 20 that I really liked, but I upgraded to an Acer PH530 720p this past year.

I liked my epson better in some areas, but DLP really has its advanatges too. I never see the dreaded dust blots that appear occasionally on LCD. It happed 2x to my epson as this is one of LCDs flaws. I would still consider another LCD projector though as that epson 1080 looks really good.

But that aside, I can't help but wonder how FP would be affected by a lack of support for RP on the DLP side. Front projectors are a niche at best I would think.

I do like my acer though and plan on keeping it atleast until next year as my main projector and maybe use it as a portable after that or sell it on ebay to recoupe some of the cost of the upgrade.

RP discontinuation is more about floor and wall space than about DLP.

I am not saying DLP is inferior technology, but it very well be relegated as unused technolgy that is no longer carried. It is like CRTs. CRTs for monitors have alot of advantages especially in contrast, but it is hard to find one anymore new.

It's about profit. DLP is not looking good right. It's main advantage was picture quality. And that is quickly being rectified by the LCD makers. The Epson 1080UB is the future of things to come as its technology is filtered down into lower models in the coming years. Look at the huge improvements made in LCD tvs in the last 2 years. DLP on the other had doesn't have the R&D going on to keep pace with LCD because no one other than projector makers will use it.

Fact of the matter is, aside from projectors, DLP is dead! Done! They know that consumers are steering clear of tvs that require bulb replacements. This is why Sony moved away from SXRD even though those tvs were popular. They don't want to deal with the hassles of bulb changes in a few years. You lose customers this way.

DLP in projectors have survived because the owners are aware of bulb changes and they expect it. But LCD is catching up, and actually surpassing DLP in the performance for price ratio. I didn't think I'd see this day so soon.

RP discontinuation is more about floor and wall space than about DLP.

Actually, DLP RPTV problems have been way above average. Some stopped selling the sets or extended warranties because of these issues.

I am not saying DLP is inferior technology, but it very well be relegated as unused technolgy that is no longer carried. It is like CRTs. CRTs for monitors have alot of advantages especially in contrast, but it is hard to find one anymore new.

1. DLP is hardly unused or obsolete
It's RP that is being discontinued, not DLP

2. CRT discontinued in consumer products:
a) FLOOR / WALL SPACE
b) VERY HEAVY

It's main advantage was picture quality. And that is quickly being rectified by the LCD makers. The Epson 1080UB is the future of things to come as its technology is filtered down into lower models in the coming years.

I certainly hope you are wrong. I've seen a few 1080UB and that picture is pretty bad, very flat looking and the weakness of the poor native panel contrast shows up in many many scenes. Not to mention the great number of them with convergence errors. I've also seen the other 1080p LCDs and they are certainly nothing to write home about.

I've lost all hope that anyone can make a good looking LCD. I hope the low end ends up getting cheaper LCoS or improved DLP. I sure hope you are wrong.

I tend to agree with Person99....altough LCD has been advancing in some aspects not all even though specs will indicate they have in all respects, IMHO DLP is still "by nature" superior in IQ and I dont see LCD been able to beat it. I also hope this DLP death is not for real but some of the points mentioned do make sense.
It seems that DLP development is a bit stuck now as I havent seen better chips coming out with improved contrast ratios for a while...and I dont mean that Iris thingy...
Hopefully, as Person99 said, LCos will become more afforadable soon...that would be very nice. Or maybe those 3 chip DLPs will finally go down in price...I wouldnt mind getting a 777. :-)

Since when is > 4000:1 native CR poor?


I certainly hope you are wrong. I've seen a few 1080UB and that picture is pretty bad, very flat looking and the weakness of the poor native panel contrast shows up in many many scenes. Not to mention the great number of them with convergence errors. I've also seen the other 1080p LCDs and they are certainly nothing to write home about.

I've lost all hope that anyone can make a good looking LCD. I hope the low end ends up getting cheaper LCoS or improved DLP. I sure hope you are wrong.

The market is shifting to flat panels and that hurts RP sales. Sony was selling a lot of LCOS RPs but the numbers were tiny compared to LCD panels. And of course we have OLEDs on the horizon along with improved plasma and LCD panels. Consumers want them, manufacturers love to sell them (more profit, less service) and the retailers love all the sales and push them--thereby pushing out RP. This all has little to do with PQ, it's just the way the market is working.

Front projectors are a growing niche market that is in no danger because there is another very large market driving it. Educational and business sales of FJs are enormous. HT applications are a spin off of the major market. There may be some consolidation but DLP (and LCD for that matter) PJs will be cranked out by the millions. My own opinion is that FP sales are slowly gaining strength. Because DLP has been more expensive, LCD has been selling well lately. Cost drives many buying decisions. It remains to be seen how the current economic downturn and high energy prices will affect all of this.

Oh yea, for sure DLP's pop is something LCD can't do yet. Even the low end models have a nice 3d look to it that I haven't seen on LCD. And of course, depite how deep the blacks go on future models, balancing light and blacks in a scene is still advantage to DLP.

I'm talking about advancement from a pure technological point of view. LCD is huge right now and so many are working in R&D to improve it. I don't think the same can be said for DLP. They really need to get the 3 chip units below $3000. LCD is a plug and play device, and user friendliness is big when you're trying to convince new owners to take the plunge.

I am not saying that DLP is better than LCD or vice versa. They each have real mesurable advantages and disadvantages. But FP technology would not be where it is now if it wasn't for the advances made for LCD panel TVs/monitors and RPTVs.

While projectors are a growing niche, they still are a nich at best. You can't rely on school purchases or business use to accelerate home theater projector development. They have a different goal in mind.

But there is a definite tied between mainstream consumer flat panel and RP development and FP technology development.

If a company eliminates their RP line and embraces LCD, I don't think it would be long for a company to make that transition for FP as well. It would make sense for companies to put their R&D into one technology instead of two for the sole purpose of a nich market.

It's not just DLP RPTVs that are being phased out. All RPTVs are, and that include LCDs and CRT models as well.

Consumers just prefer a flat panel, for reasons that have nothing to do with image quality. Flat panels (LCD or plasma) are cool, boxes are not. DLP can only function as a projection engine, be it front or rear so it is forced to miss out on flat-panel sales.

The disappearance of the the DLP RPTV mayhave some impact on front projector pricing and future technology enhancements but it is hard to predict what that will be. As someone else pointed out, the home theater line is really a piggy back on the business projection line which existed long before digital technologies were applied to small consumer rear-projection sets.

All, I think the OP's point is this: at present, DLP is not used in any flat panel design, therefore as RPs are phased out, the only remaining market for DLP is FP. This is not true of LCD as virtually all flat panels are now based on LCD technology, thus, is FP a large enough market for a manufacturer to continue to invest in DLP, or does it make more sense economically to focus solely on LCD where you can gain greater economies of scale.

is FP a large enough market for a manufacturer to continue to invest in DLP, or does it make more sense economically to focus solely on LCD where you can gain greater economies of scale.

It'd be interesting to see some reps from Epson and TI battle over this...

All, I think the OP's point is this: at present, DLP is not used in any flat panel design, therefore as RPs are phased out, the only remaining market for DLP is FP. This is not true of LCD as virtually all flat panels are now based on LCD technology, thus, is FP a large enough market for a manufacturer to continue to invest in DLP, or does it make more sense economically to focus solely on LCD where you can gain greater economies of scale.

But are LCD panels for projectors made on the same lines as panels for FP?

But are LCD panels for projectors made on the same lines as panels for FP?

If you look, most of their techonologies are still shared. Epsons 3LCD was a shared technology.

When you look at an LCD in many ways, it is just a very thin projection screen with the back light pushing the light out toward you. The only real different is the size of the LCD. The LCD in a flat panel is the size of the screen where as the projector is microsized.

Companies have a habit of sticking with one technology if possible. Look at Epson, they went LCD exclusive. Same with HDM.

If you have followed the history of HT PJ, you would know that LCD was the originaly tech that started to surplant CRT. DLP was relatively new and it took some time to come to where it is now. And for a time, DLP for the most part was the better choice, but LCD has really come a long way to supplanting DLP. The most affordable technology is LCD for 1080. What happens when 1440 becomes the next norm? It will most likely be out first on LCD if that is where R&D dollars are going.

The problem that I see is that I perceive that Home Theater FP technology is now piggybacked onto consumer TV technology from here on out. It started out as a piggyback on business projectors, BUT hidef and contrast is not really much of a selling point on the business end. There they want lumens and cost savings.

GreySkies -- No, not at all, they are entirely different processes. LCD flat panel TVs use a large to very large LCD panel. These are made by an evaporative type process. In many ways, LCD flat panel TVs are made by processes more similar to Plasma TVs than they are to LCD or DLP chips.

The panels in front projectors are very small (about 0.77" diagonal = 0.671" x 0.378" = about half the size of a 35mm film negative). The LCoS (SXRD, Sony, and D-ILa, JVC) panels are made the same way. These are made with a process similar to integrated circuits (like the Intel or AMD processor in your PC). DLP chips are made in a similar manner, which is why Texas Instruments makes all of the DLP chips in their integrated circuit plant.

bjmarchini -- What do you mean by "HDM" (could it be a new name that TI is using for their DLP chips?)? The DLP chips are usually called DMD (= Digital Micro Device). They are exclusively made by Texas Instruments (TI).

Also, the LCD PJ panels are not miniture versions of the flat screen TVs. They are made by entirely different processes. Therefore, PJ LCD panels are not piggy-backed on the Flat Panel TV sales.

BTW, Epson makes most of the LCD projector panels (they are the original developer and have a lot of the patents, but they don't have a lock on the processes). This is why Sony and JVC are into the LCoS type chips, because then they don't have to pay licensing fees to Epson.

AFIK, the D7 1080p (C2Fine) inorganic panels are exclusive to Epson (and are used in the newest Epson, Panasonic, Sanyo, Mitsubishi, etc. 1080p PJs). The "D#" nomenclature is Epson's internal name for their LCD projector panels. BTW, LG and it's partners/licensees make most of the LCD TV panels, from Asian manufacturers. Phillips, in Europe, is the other major LCD flat panel manufacturer. I'm not sure who the players are in the Plasma panel manufacturing market.

If a company eliminates their RP line and embraces LCD, I don't think it would be long for a company to make that transition for FP as well. It would make sense for companies to put their R&D into one technology instead of two for the sole purpose of a nich market.Not necessarily true at all.

Large businesses are actually multiple businesses under one overarching name. The already have R&D, production facilities, and management established for their varied products. LCD tvs are not made in the same plant or even buy the same sudsidiary. It is very possible that the LCD tv sub could even be bought out by another company that is more heavily invested in tv production.

At the same time, more content is being created in HD format, calling for the production of more widescreen business / cinema quality PJs. Static, boring monocolored Powerpoint presentations are being replaced by cinematic presentations of high quality.

This conversation about the future of DLP has been going on for a long time and will not end until DLP DMDs are no longer produced. As long as TI keeps making them, there will be companies selling products with them inside.

DLP handles same-scene contrast and other LCD "issues" exceptionally well and has no persistent image problems either. LCD contrast improvements are still not critical threat to DLP. RBE and Image Offset issues are DLPs biggest issues.

GreySkies -- No, not at all, they are entirely different processes.

Thanks, that's what I thought, but wasn't entirely sure.

GreySkies -- No, not at all, they are entirely different processes. LCD flat panel TVs use a large to very large LCD panel. These are made by an evaporative type process. In many ways, LCD flat panel TVs are made by processes more similar to Plasma TVs than they are to LCD or DLP chips.

The panels in front projectors are very small (about 0.77" diagonal = 0.671" x 0.378" = about half the size of a 35mm film negative). The LCoS (SXRD, Sony, and D-ILa, JVC) panels are made the same way. These are made with a process similar to integrated circuits (like the Intel or AMD processor in your PC). DLP chips are made in a similar manner, which is why Texas Instruments makes all of the DLP chips in their integrated circuit plant.

bjmarchini -- What do you mean by "HDM" (could it be a new name that TI is using for their DLP chips?)? The DLP chips are usually called DMD (= Digital Micro Device). They are exclusively made by Texas Instruments (TI).

Also, the LCD PJ panels are not miniture versions of the flat screen TVs. They are made by entirely different processes. Therefore, PJ LCD panels are not piggy-backed on the Flat Panel TV sales.

BTW, Epson makes most of the LCD projector panels (they are the original developer and have a lot of the patents, but they don't have a lock on the processes). This is why Sony and JVC are into the LCoS type chips, because then they don't have to pay licensing fees to Epson.

AFIK, the D7 1080p (C2Fine) inorganic panels are exclusive to Epson (and are used in the newest Epson, Panasonic, Sanyo, Mitsubishi, etc. 1080p PJs). The "D#" nomenclature is Epson's internal name for their LCD projector panels. BTW, LG and it's partners/licensees make most of the LCD TV panels, from Asian manufacturers. Phillips, in Europe, is the other major LCD flat panel manufacturer. I'm not sure who the players are in the Plasma panel manufacturing market.

I am not going to argue the point and let you derail this thread although I want to. Regardless of who is right on LCD, DLP technology is directly related to RP and FP. What advance made in one are made in the other. Sure they are different, but directly related.

DLPs have come a long way in a short time. This has been spurred by it demand on the RP DLP consumer TVs. You try and argue that DLP is advanced by TI and not a third party, but who do you think TI is selling those chip technologies to? Where do you think the money going to R&D is coming from?

The money fueling DLP will be drastically reduced as manufacturers back off of DLP RP TVs. From an economic standpoint (which is all that businesses care about in the end), they are going to pull money out of R&D for DLP. On the other hand, LCD will get increased funding due to its now near mainstream acceptance currently on the PC side and goiong there on the consumer side.

GreySkies -- No, not at all, they are entirely different processes. LCD flat panel TVs use a large to very large LCD panel. These are made by an evaporative type process. In many ways, LCD flat panel TVs are made by processes more similar to Plasma TVs than they are to LCD or DLP chips.

The panels in front projectors are very small (about 0.77" diagonal = 0.671" x 0.378" = about half the size of a 35mm film negative). The LCoS (SXRD, Sony, and D-ILa, JVC) panels are made the same way. These are made with a process similar to integrated circuits (like the Intel or AMD processor in your PC). DLP chips are made in a similar manner, which is why Texas Instruments makes all of the DLP chips in their integrated circuit plant.

bjmarchini -- What do you mean by "HDM" (could it be a new name that TI is using for their DLP chips?)? The DLP chips are usually called DMD (= Digital Micro Device). They are exclusively made by Texas Instruments (TI).

Also, the LCD PJ panels are not miniture versions of the flat screen TVs. They are made by entirely different processes. Therefore, PJ LCD panels are not piggy-backed on the Flat Panel TV sales.

BTW, Epson makes most of the LCD projector panels (they are the original developer and have a lot of the patents, but they don't have a lock on the processes). This is why Sony and JVC are into the LCoS type chips, because then they don't have to pay licensing fees to Epson.

AFIK, the D7 1080p (C2Fine) inorganic panels are exclusive to Epson (and are used in the newest Epson, Panasonic, Sanyo, Mitsubishi, etc. 1080p PJs). The "D#" nomenclature is Epson's internal name for their LCD projector panels. BTW, LG and it's partners/licensees make most of the LCD TV panels, from Asian manufacturers. Phillips, in Europe, is the other major LCD flat panel manufacturer. I'm not sure who the players are in the Plasma panel manufacturing market.

One of the big players in that market is Panasonic.

I am not going to argue the point and let you derail this thread although I want to. Regardless of who is right on LCD, DLP technology is directly related to RP and FP. What advance made in one are made in the other. Sure they are different, but directly related.

DLPs have come a long way in a short time. This has been spurred by it demand on the RP DLP consumer TVs. You try and argue that DLP is advanced by TI and not a third party, but who do you think TI is selling those chip technologies to? Where do you think the money going to R&D is coming from?

The money fueling DLP will be drastically reduced as manufacturers back off of DLP RP TVs. From an economic standpoint (which is all that businesses care about in the end), they are going to pull money out of R&D for DLP. On the other hand, LCD will get increased funding due to its now near mainstream acceptance currently on the PC side and goiong there on the consumer side.

I agree. It is common sense. TI is not going to spend millions in R & D advancements for a tiny market and once RP is gone that is exactly what the DLP market will be, tiny. The other factors hurting DLP are lens shift, noise, lumens and rainbows. DLP may be the better technology, but we all know the better technology does not win. Just look at Beta vs VHS.

I agree. It is common sense. TI is not going to spend millions in R & D advancements for a tiny market and once RP is gone that is exactly what the DLP market will be, tiny. The other factors hurting DLP are lens shift, noise, lumens and rainbows. DLP may be the better technology, but we all know the better technology does not win. Just look at Beta vs VHS.

Or BR over HD-DVD. I still perfer DLP over LCD by a large margin. I would take it and all its small quirks for a better picture.

mjg100 -- Panasonic does makea significant number of its own LCD flat panels, but, I think I read that, some of them are being made under a partnership agreement with LG, especially the larger ones, over 50" or so. They, of course, do almost all of the assembly (I was referring to the raw panels).

I'm making a distinction between the raw panels and the assembly of the sets or PJs that they go into. My references were to the raw panel manufacturing. A lot of TV set (and PJs) are actually assembled in India, Taiwan, China, and other Indo-Chinese countries, for the major manufacturers.

Panasonic, however, buys it's LCD PJ panels from Epson (they can't compete with Epson on price, after licensing fees are added in). Epson has the economy of scale, too. Here, again, I'm referring to the raw panels, and not the rest of the PJ. A lot of PJs sold are OEM from one of the "main" manufacturers. BenQ, for instance supplies OEM PJs to others.

RE: Your "better technology" example is a little out of date. Blu-ray has won the most recent "Hi-Def DVD war" and it was the better "technology" (even though some of the external player circuitry wasn't up to snuff - in part due to indecision on the part of the Blu-ray consortium being unable to come to a consensus on features).

Stix2 -- Yup, and the PJ market isn't all that small, even though it is only a small part of the "TV set" market, and it is growing, although slowly. DLP does have a significant share of the business PJ market (although I don't have the numbers to back it up). In the over $3K PJ market, DLP also has a significant share (mainly in the over $6K units).

mjg100 -- Panasonic does makea significant number of its own LCD flat panels, but, I think I read that, some of them are being made under a partnership agreement with LG, especially the larger ones, over 50" or so. They, of course, do almost all of the assembly (I was referring to the raw panels).

I'm making a distinction between the raw panels and the assembly of the sets or PJs that they go into. My references were to the raw panel manufacturing. A lot of TV set (and PJs) are actually assembled in India, Taiwan, China, and other Indo-Chinese countries, for the major manufacturers.

Panasonic, however, buys it's LCD PJ panels from Epson (they can't compete with Epson on price, after licensing fees are added in). Epson has the economy of scale, too. Here, again, I'm referring to the raw panels, and not the rest of the PJ. A lot of PJs sold are OEM from one of the "main" manufacturers. BenQ, for instance supplies OEM PJs to others.

RE: Your "better technology" example is a little out of date. Blu-ray has won the most recent "Hi-Def DVD war" and it was the better "technology" (even though some of the external player circuitry wasn't up to snuff - in part due to indecision on the part of the Blu-ray consortium being unable to come to a consensus on features).

Stix2 -- Yup, and the PJ market isn't all that small, even though it is only a small part of the "TV set" market, and it is growing, although slowly. DLP does have a significant share of the business PJ market (although I don't have the numbers to back it up). In the over $3K PJ market, DLP also has a significant share (mainly in the over $6K units).

You said that you did not know who the big players were in the plasma panel market. i replied Panasonic. We were not talking about LCD panels. Panasonic just recently signed a contract to supply all of Pioneer's Kuro line of panels.

When I wrote my post I had included HD DVD vs BD and then I erased it. I figured that the BD fan boys would jump all over it and try and claim larger capacity (HD DVD did top this but did not produce the product) and higher bit rate. Even though BD fan boys would be hard pressed to show where bit rate held back the sound quality of HD DVD.

DLP projector market. How many people do you know that have one or more TV's? Now how many people that you know have projectors? Of those people that have projectors, how many have DLP projectors? How many people have over $3,000 DLP projectors? We are talking a smaller and smaller piece of the pie. It is a fact of life companies are going to spend the bulk of their R & D on the larger market share products.

[QUOTE=CT_Wiebe;13782268]mjg100

Panasonic, however, buys it's LCD PJ panels from Epson (they can't compete with Epson on price, after licensing fees are added in). Epson has the economy of scale, too. Here, again, I'm referring to the raw panels, and not the rest of the PJ. A lot of PJs sold are OEM from one of the "main" manufacturers. BenQ, for instance supplies OEM PJs to others.

That might explain why Epson and BenQ's projectors are cheaper than their competitors specs-wise.

mjg100 -- Panasonic does makea significant number of its own LCD flat panels, but, I think I read that, some of them are being made under a partnership agreement with LG, especially the larger ones, over 50" or so. They, of course, do almost all of the assembly (I was referring to the raw panels).

I'm making a distinction between the raw panels and the assembly of the sets or PJs that they go into. My references were to the raw panel manufacturing. A lot of TV set (and PJs) are actually assembled in India, Taiwan, China, and other Indo-Chinese countries, for the major manufacturers.

Panasonic, however, buys it's LCD PJ panels from Epson (they can't compete with Epson on price, after licensing fees are added in). Epson has the economy of scale, too. Here, again, I'm referring to the raw panels, and not the rest of the PJ. A lot of PJs sold are OEM from one of the "main" manufacturers. BenQ, for instance supplies OEM PJs to others.

RE: Your "better technology" example is a little out of date. Blu-ray has won the most recent "Hi-Def DVD war" and it was the better "technology" (even though some of the external player circuitry wasn't up to snuff - in part due to indecision on the part of the Blu-ray consortium being unable to come to a consensus on features).

Stix2 -- Yup, and the PJ market isn't all that small, even though it is only a small part of the "TV set" market, and it is growing, although slowly. DLP does have a significant share of the business PJ market (although I don't have the numbers to back it up). In the over $3K PJ market, DLP also has a significant share (mainly in the over $6K units).

I think you are missing our point here. The projector market probably has a larger share than BR at this point.... but that is if you include business projectors.

Everyone here know how different a business projector is to home theater projector.

Two years ago what was the ratio to DLP chips in RP TVs to projectors? not lcd. If I had to guess it was what 10 to 1? We think of businesses having projectors, but the truth is that businesses usually have 1-2 projectors unless it is a super large company and even they wont have all that many. And these things are used very little in hours compared to ours and will last them 5-10 years. The market will not support the continued development to keep in pace with LCD at that point. And TI will not put the money they put into DLP that they did already.

It is ashame, because I really like my DLP projector and they have come so far. I get tired of hear RBE. with my 4x 7 segment color wheel, I honestly could not see it.

I must admit that as much as I like DLP, that Epson 1080 is really tempting.

I get tired of hear RBE. with my 4x 7 segment color wheel, I honestly could not see it.

I must admit that as much as I like DLP, that Epson 1080 is really tempting.

I see rainbows on a regular basis. Let's say, if I try my hardest not to move my eyes, on a typical movie, I'll see RBE about 20 times in a span of 2 hours.

I like the color and pop of DLPs, but for people like me, they are utterly impossible to watch. I tried everything, put a neutral density filter to tame the brightness. Still didn't help. Anytime a bright object moves against a dark background, I see RBE.

My ideal 720p projector would be the Panasonic AX200U; it's the closest thing to a 720p DLP projector minus the RBE, if it wasn't a POS reliablity-wise.

If there were $1000 DLP 720p with 6x wheels, then I'd snap up one of those.

I think We think of businesses having projectors, but the truth is that businesses usually have 1-2 projectors unless it is a super large company and even they wont have all that many. And these things are used very little in hours compared to ours and will last them 5-10 years. The market will not support the continued development to keep in pace with LCD at that point. And TI will not put the money they put into DLP that they did already..

Not true. My company is what you'd call a medium-sized business. We've got several hundred projectors. Every sales rep has a projector. They're replaced every 1-3 years.

Heck, my son's grade school has a projector in every classroom (K-5 x 5 classes each) and they're replaced every other year.

Not true. My company is what you'd call a medium-sized business. We've got several hundred projectors. Every sales rep has a projector. They're replaced every 1-3 years.

Heck, my son's grade school has a projector in every classroom (K-5 x 5 classes each) and they're replaced every other year.

You my friend are an exception. so is that company. and so is that school. most schools cant afford a new projector for every classroom every year.

Even then, they are business projectors that aren't going to be looking to push the edge in resolution and contrast. Oh wait.. let me guess they are. :rolleyes:

here is a quote from an article I found

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6508957.html?industryid=23099— Sales of front projectors with native 720p resolution grew 43 percent in the third quarter of 2007 over the second quarter of the year, taking 40 percent of the total front-projector market in the period, according to a Quixel Research study.

The report, which is entitled "Quixel Research's Home Theater and Entertainment Front Projector Market Review," attributed the gains to "the great value" 720p models now offer to consumers.

"The residential front-projection market is very segmented," stated Tamaryn Pratt, Quixel's principal. "For all the buzz about 1080p in the projection industry, as well as the entire display industry, 720p at the right price is perfect for many consumers' needs. We saw the 720p category blossom in the third quarter — all the top sellers were 720p and they were all priced below $1,300. Many even included a screen."

Volume growth was offset by the reduced price points, as well as the lack of sales in the higher-end 720p sales, which limited revenue growth for the 720p segment to a 2 percent rise from the second quarter 2007 to third quarter 2007, or $49 million.

Unit shipments for the overall home entertainment projector category were up 3 percent from second quarter 2007 to the third quarter 2007, but revenue was down 19 percent year-to-year as the category battled all other advanced TV categories for mind share with consumers, Quixel said.

Overall revenues for the residential front-projection category were down 5 percent from the second quarter 2007 to the third quarter 2007, dropping from $148 million to $140 million quarter-to-quarter. Year-to-year the category was also down 44 percent.


Lets say the average 720p projector last year was about $1200 with some being under $1000 and some being over $1500. 148,000,000/1200*4= 493K units. that is a nich my friend and a small niche at that. now lets take that further. Lets say 50% are LCD. now we are down to 250K 720p DLP projectors last year.

Do you realize how many hundreds of millions of dollars get invested into R&D. for a niche.

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9767582-1.html

this is from CNET

Will rear-projection TV sales plunge to near zero within the next 48 months? That's what a new study from IDC Group claims. With ever larger plasma and (especially) LCD flat-panel HDTVs becoming ever more affordable, IDC sees sales of RPTV sets--those utilizing DLP and LCoS microdisplays--dropping to under 30,000 units by 2011. That's a dramatic drop from the peak of 3.51 million sold in 2004 (according to the CEA).

so when they drop down to 30K DLPs per year in 3 years, they are still going to advance them with the 250K static figure we have now?

I was apparently too generous at 10:1. It is actually 14:1.

And there is one more problem with your increase projector growth theory. They already have already introduced a 65" flat panel. that is a pretty big panel. No knowing what they will have in 2011? And the biggest problem FP has is that most folks still think you need to be in a completely dark room to watch one. I don't know if that is a stigma that will ever go away? I can't cound how many times peopl have said that to me because the have seen washed business projectors.

Seems bjmarchini's true intentions for this thread are becoming more evident with each of his posts.

He refuses to listen to conflicting evidence and observation and continues to insist that he is correct and that DLP technology is obsolete and most certanly doomed already.

He says he loves his dlp but then claims to be very tempted by an LCD and then works very hard to convince himself that it is inevitable that all PJs will be LCD soon anyway. Even worse, he thinks PJs are an obsolete technology in themselves and will be supplanted by enormous panels of glass. He must also be tempted by a large LCD panel and is contemplating abandoning the PJ world altogether.

He almost willfully ignores other so called niche products that continue to be made and sold year after year because of their unique experience. He complains about what he is tired of and his desire to see discussion realize that he is correct and all others in professional and personal disagreement are simply ignorant or blind. He is certainly entitled to his own opinions but I'm done reading them. Fortunately, this forum has an IGNORE USER function.

Good luck OP. Go enjoy your LCD.

Please do not tell me what my true intentions are. Given the choice, I would prefer DLP. I think LCD is a flawed system for myself.

I have seen LCDs fade over time. I also have had alot of problems with dust blobs on LCDs in the past. I really like my DLP projector. Alot more than my old epson.

Funny thing is that the thing I liked about the epson the most was not the PQ, but the ease of use. I could put that thing nearly anywhere and get a square picture. They have great manual optics.

What tempts me about the Epson 1080 is the placement options and ease of use. What holds me back are the memories of the problems that I had with LCD in the past.

I really hope that DLP will last and improve. But I will not cling to it if it falls behind development and a better LCD option is available. My loyatly is for home theater and not a type of projector.

Its ashame. If epson made a DLP projector, it would be my first choice.... assuming it had good picture quality.

And it is hard to beat the near true black of a dlp. Whenever my system portays all black, I see the screen and it looks like the projector is off (during the day). I could never do that with my old epson.

And it is hard to beat the near true black of a dlp. Whenever my system portays all black, I see the screen and it looks like the projector is off (during the day). I could never do that with my old epson.

True black of a DLP? You need to see, or rather, not see, the black of a CRT projector-- my room went completely dark with my old CRT-- you couldn't see your hand in front of your face. ;)

True black of a DLP? You need to see, or rather, not see, the black of a CRT projector-- my room went completely dark with my old CRT-- you couldn't see your hand in front of your face. ;)

you know what I mean.. you just like to argue don't you :rolleyes:

I agree CRTs are the best in terms of blacks but they don't have the presence in the <3000 projector sales these days. Not saying they are not available... just not popular.

Arguing? I think there's a misunderstanding-- I'm not arguing-- just conversing (hence the winky).

BTW, some would say that the whites of my old CRT (450 lumens rated new), approached the black level of an LCD. :D

It's about profit. DLP is not looking good right. It's main advantage was picture quality. And that is quickly being rectified by the LCD makers. The Epson 1080UB is the future of things to come as its technology is filtered down into lower models in the coming years. Look at the huge improvements made in LCD tvs in the last 2 years. DLP on the other had doesn't have the R&D going on to keep pace with LCD because no one other than projector makers will use it.

Fact of the matter is, aside from projectors, DLP is dead! Done! They know that consumers are steering clear of tvs that require bulb replacements. This is why Sony moved away from SXRD even though those tvs were popular. They don't want to deal with the hassles of bulb changes in a few years. You lose customers this way.

DLP in projectors have survived because the owners are aware of bulb changes and they expect it. But LCD is catching up, and actually surpassing DLP in the performance for price ratio. I didn't think I'd see this day so soon.


I'm sorry - but I've yet to see a decent black from any LCD.

DLP lacks a decent black too - but at least it is competitive with CRT (or getting that way slowly).

I'd never buy an LCD for actual viewing. I got one for my PC - but that was more for surfing and the black level sucks balls on it and is not even close to as good to watch a TV show on as my HD-CRT-TV.

Not necessarily true at all.

Large businesses are actually multiple businesses under one overarching name. The already have R&D, production facilities, and management established for their varied products. LCD tvs are not made in the same plant or even buy the same sudsidiary. It is very possible that the LCD tv sub could even be bought out by another company that is more heavily invested in tv production.

At the same time, more content is being created in HD format, calling for the production of more widescreen business / cinema quality PJs. Static, boring monocolored Powerpoint presentations are being replaced by cinematic presentations of high quality.

This conversation about the future of DLP has been going on for a long time and will not end until DLP DMDs are no longer produced. As long as TI keeps making them, there will be companies selling products with them inside.

DLP handles same-scene contrast and other LCD "issues" exceptionally well and has no persistent image problems either. LCD contrast improvements are still not critical threat to DLP. RBE and Image Offset issues are DLPs biggest issues.


the DLP Darkchip4 has a contrast of 5k...............good but still not good enough. They need to reach CRT levels.

my Darkchip2 H31 is around 2k contrast. I live with it, but my CRT tv blows it away in shadow detail.

rainbows remain a a problem too. I see them with a x4 wheel and live with them on the H31, but if i were to pay out 4k (instead of the 1k I did for the H31) I would not except ANY rainbows while viewing shows. And sadly it seems the DLP makers have stopped their colorwheel speeds at 4x!!! not exceptable! I need a 6x to remove the rainbows from my eyes!

LCD in any form is utterly unexceptable in contrast performance.