Guys

I watch a lot of HDTV hooked up to Comast HD cable box. I'm not yet a gamer and huge DVD user but might start. My question is will I see a much improved picture watching HDTV on a 106" screen from 11' on a 1080 projector vs a 720 projector in a dark room. This is the only thing holding up my decision on whether to buy something like the HC1500 now or maybe wait just a bit longer for a good deal on a 1080 unit. Thanks!

Consider the source. Most HDTV (I have comcast 1080i is max) is either 720P or 1080I there is no 1080P....yet. So unless you have a PS3 or a HTPC to output 1080p get a 720p and wait for the prices to drop.

At least that what I am doing for now.

Cheers

Consider the source. Most HDTV (I have comcast 1080i is max) is either 720P or 1080I there is no 1080P....yet. So unless you have a PS3 or a HTPC to output 1080p get a 720p and wait for the prices to drop.

At least that what I am doing for now.

Cheers

When viewing a 1080i source on HDTV will there be a noticeable difference in PQ on a 1080 projector VS a 720 projector? Also I'm running my cable signal thru a Onkyo 605 and all my comast channels are showing a 1080i feed. That is a bit confusing to me as well. Why does it show that? Thanks

noserider, there are a million more pixels in a 1080p image than a 720p image. But wether or not you see a noticible difference will very largely depend on your source, how good your eyes are, and how much motion is in a given scene of a movie.

720p looks HD...it looks "oh my god that is so sharp". 1080p is the same thing, only sharper, and thats assuming you are watching a very good source, like a super-sharp well-mastered BD or HDDVD running at 1080p.

I have no desire whatsoever to move from my 720p unit to a 1080p unit. The visual payoff just isn't there, its more like an evolutionary step than a revolutionary one.

Think of it this way: a 480p DVD still looks very good projected at 100" or more. At 720p that 480p looks soft, but still watchable. At 1080p, the 720p image looks...perhaps...a little softer, but its still razor sharp and HD looking, so the bang for your buck isn't there the way the jump from ED (480p) to HD (720p or 1080p) is.

Short answer: you may notice an increase in sharpness going from 720p to 1080p, but its going to be more of a "yeah, thats a little bit sharper" reaction than a "WOAH its like SUPER HD!" reaction.

And there will likely never be any 1080p broadcast TV, in the foreseeable future. It just takes too much bandwidth, and cable and satellite (DBS) companies are fighting the bandwidth as it is (the more bandwidth needed, the fewer channels can be delivered to the customer). Even putting in Fiber Optic cables won't help, since the cable companies will opt for more services, rather than better TV signals (they make more money that way).

All of the newer HD channel broadcast signals are also highly compressed (using MPEG-4 algorithms). It's the same reason, that gives them more channels for the same bandwidth. Consequently, the best 1080 video will be from Blu-ray sources (now that HD-DVD is dead).

noserider -- I also have a 106" screen and sit 11' from it. With a HDTV signal (and DVDs), the picture is good on my 720p PJ. However, since a 1080p PJ has 2.25 times the number of pixels as a 720p unit, the picture will be sharper and more detailed (it will also show up more of the broadcasting defects).

Another advantage is that there will be no observable SDE (the grid between the pixels) on a 1080p display. I can just barely see the SDE on my 720p DLP PJ (if I look really hard on a light colored scene).

The major trade-off is one of price. You can get a good 720p unit for about half the price of the 1080p ones. Also the 720p units are, now, older technology and do not have the contrast ratio of the new 1080p ones (ie, the black levels aren't as good and you will see the "black bars" as being a dark gray for letterboxed or 4:3 content). BTW, don't believe the advertised contrast ratios, they are inflated and do not refer to calibrated images.

HeadRusch -- Oops. You beat me to a reply. You have made some other very good points too.

IMHO , what you should consider is the difference between an older High End 720p and the new crop of less expensive 1080p Projectors . In most cases those less expensive 1080p projectors have no real advantage (other than pixel fill for view distance) over some of the older high end 720p models that can now be found for much less $ (like InFocus 7210 , Sharp 12K mkII , BenQ 8720 , etc.) . If you are holding out for a really nice 1080p model to drop to reasonable pricing I think you'll be wasting a good deal of time where you could be enjoying an amazing 720p model . Now if you are thinking of waiting for 1080p to drop to somewhere around the current entry level 720p prices I think you'll be waiting a much longer time . Image quality is not all about resolution and the real difference between 720p and 1080p is minimal when all else is equal (other than view distance) . My other suggestion is to avoid those entry level 1080p LCD models , they just do not compare to a really good 720p DLP .

A thread like this always seems to stir up trouble so let us hope that those who wish to comment can keep it civil and simply express their opinion on the matter and not take things to a personal level ... here's to hoping :) .

Best of Luck ,
-- Jason

I have been on these forums for a very short time, and I cannot tell you how much I have learned!! I guess when you know nothing about HT's, and Surround sound it is easy to learn alot quickly, however I am still amazed at the mass information of this site. I asked a friend a simple question about a big TV and nice sound, he sent me here and now I am addicted, excited, etc!! Well, now I am rambling, carry on please, nothing to see here :)

IMHO , what you should consider is the difference between an older High End 720p and the new crop of less expensive 1080p Projectors . In most cases those less expensive 1080p projectors have no real advantage (other than pixel fill for view distance) over some of the older high end 720p models that can now be found for much less $ (like InFocus 7210 , Sharp 12K mkII , BenQ 8720 , etc.) . If you are holding out for a really nice 1080p model to drop to reasonable pricing I think you'll be wasting a good deal of time where you could be enjoying an amazing 720p model . Now if you are thinking of waiting for 1080p to drop to somewhere around the current entry level 720p prices I think you'll be waiting a much longer time . Image quality is not all about resolution and the real difference between 720p and 1080p is minimal when all else is equal (other than view distance) . My other suggestion is to avoid those entry level 1080p LCD models , they just do not compare to a really good 720p DLP .

A thread like this always seems to stir up trouble so let us hope that those who wish to comment can keep it civil and simply express their opinion on the matter and not take things to a personal level ... here's to hoping :) .

Best of Luck ,
-- Jason

Guys

All excellent answers and VERY helpful. You just gave me enough ammunition to pull the trigger on a 720P projector. Thats really cool since I can have it NOW and feel good about making an informed decision on what's best for ME. I think that's the key for all of us here as needs and wants differ. It's just really amazing that we are finally at a point where these are affordable for us now where they were not just a short time ago.

Now that the decision is made to go with a 720 unit I'm not clear on older 720p unit's VS newer ones. To recap I'll be viewing from 11'6" on a 106" screen with room for a long throw( up to 18'). Room has total light control. Budget is $1200 for the projector. I have been eyeing the HC1500. Any other better choices for that budget.

Thanks

Now that the decision is made to go with a 720 unit I'm not clear on older 720p unit's VS newer ones.


I think he was referring to older 720p units versus newer 720p units or 1080p units, and not to take those claims of "20,000:1 Contrast Ratio"'s too seriously. The key here is to buy the best 720p projector you can, and try to ignore the lure of the "cheap 1080p units". You'll get a much better picture from a good 720p than a low-end 1080p right now.


To recap I'll be viewing from 11'6" on a 106" screen with room for a long throw( up to 18'). Budget is $1200 for the projector. I have been eyeing the HC1500. Any other better choices for that budget.

Thanks

There are many choices in that pricerange. Very Many. I do not believe you can throw a 106" image from 11 feet away with the HC1500 however, go over to projectorcentral.com and use their Projector Calculator to find out if the HC1500 can do 106" diagonal from 11 1/2 feet away or not. You might have to scoot that PJ back a foot or two, not sure tho.

Do you want to get into the whole Pro/Con LCD versus DLP thing yet? :)
Cuz that train is comin.....

The thread is going good all things considered.

As far as your question concerning older vs newer 720p units. I can actually speak intelligently about that one since I have an hd1000u (earlier, almost identical version of HC1500) and an Infocus 7210. I can tell you that the older Infocus has slightly better contrast and is easier on my eyes (possibly due to a better color wheel) than the hd1000u. The HD1000 believe it or not has less image noise (even though the 7210 has a DCDi chip in it) and is MUCH quieter than the 7210. I don't think the difference between the two is substantial enough to say conclusively that the older, more expensive 720p units are that much better. I would venture to say to go with the HC1500 since it will be easier to find at a good price and you shouldn't have support issues that many are having with older units.

I think he was referring to older 720p units versus newer 720p units or 1080p units, and not to take those claims of "20,000:1 Contrast Ratio"'s too seriously. The key here is to buy the best 720p projector you can, and try to ignore the lure of the "cheap 1080p units". You'll get a much better picture from a good 720p than a low-end 1080p right now.



There are many choices in that pricerange. Very Many. I do not believe you can throw a 106" image from 11 feet away with the HC1500 however, go over to projectorcentral.com and use their Projector Calculator to find out if the HC1500 can do 106" diagonal from 11 1/2 feet away or not. You might have to scoot that PJ back a foot or two, not sure tho.

I have room for 18' on throw just limited to 11'6" on seating.

Do you want to get into the whole Pro/Con LCD versus DLP thing yet? :)
Cuz that train is comin..... Nope :)

If you need short throw in that price range then consider something like the Sharp DT-500 .
There are better PJ's out there than the Mitsu 1500 for under $1200 IMO so if you have some wiggle room on the throw distance then consider these (if you can find them) Mistu HC3000/3100 , InFocus IN76 , Sharp DT-500/510 , InFocus 7210 (there are others of course , this is just what came to mind) . The Sharp 12K mkII is what I just picked up and while it might cost a bit more than your budget it will best just about any other single chip 720p DLP out there ( these were $10K when new and I just saw a new one on ebay the other day for $1800 ;) ) . If you are interested in used then there are some great deals out there on fantastic PJ's . Heck , I might even be selling my ISF'd HC3000 soon to make way for the 12K mkII .

Best of Luck ,
-- Jason

the HC1500/HD1000U is an excellent projector for 720 for the price around 750.00 but...after seeing the HC5000bl the other day i can definitely say the 1080p image is MUCH MUCH better (at least to my eyes) and the SDE is much less defined. i just ordered a Benq W9000 1080p projector and i can not wait to get it. i run a 120" screen and sit from 18feet to 10 feet away depending on what chair you pick in my room. the 1080p is going to be a huge improvment

Oops. You guys missed it. noserider said that his projection distance would be 18' and his viewing distance would be about 11'.

See http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC1500-projection-calculator-pro.htm, for projection distances for the HC1500 (set the screen diagonal to 106" using the '+" & "-" "dots"). Because of the fixed offset of the HC1500, th drop is 17.4", so a ceiling mount would be required (with the center of the lens 17.4" higher than the top of the screen viewing area). Also, the mounting distance will be 12' 8" to 15' 4" - due to the limited zoom range.

This is a drawback of most newer DLP PJs. Because of their fixed, negative, offsets, they require ceiling mounting (unless you sit behind the PJ, or have the PJ between two seats - always the other options). Also because of their limited zoom range, around 1.2:1, they don't have a lot of placement distance choices either. If you can fit these limitations in to your plans, then a 720p DLP, like the HC1500 (see this review: http://www.projectorreviews.com/mitsubishi/hc1500/index.php) is an excellent choice.

I prefer LCD PJs because they fit my setup better (long zooms and lens shift), but I certainly couldn't recommend any 720p LCD over the HC1500 for picture quality and low price (a very hard combination to find).

Pure-Evil -- You didn't read his budget range, and preferences. While none of us would disagree with your choice, I think we would question your comment about it being a "hugh improvement" for his application. Let's keep this on a professional level.

Yep , missed it , thought the projection distance was short throw but at 18' that leaves all kinds of options open ( even a long throw like the Sharp 12K ;) ) .

-- Jason

If you need short throw in that price range then consider something like the Sharp DT-500 .
There are better PJ's out there than the Mitsu 1500 for under $1200 IMO so if you have some wiggle room on the throw distance then consider these (if you can find them) Mistu HC3000/3100 , InFocus IN76 , Sharp DT-500/510 , InFocus 7210 (there are others of course , this is just what came to mind) . The Sharp 12K mkII is what I just picked up and while it might cost a bit more than your budget it will best just about any other single chip 720p DLP out there ( these were $10K when new and I just saw a new one on ebay the other day for $1800 ;) ) . If you are interested in used then there are some great deals out there on fantastic PJ's . Heck , I might even be selling my ISF'd HC3000 soon to make way for the 12K mkII .

Best of Luck ,
-- Jason

I agree with Jason and as a proud new owner of the Infocus 7210 I can tell you that getting an older 720P makes a lot of sense. You get quality lenses which is VERY important among many other things.
ondaedg, the 7210 is a VERY bright projector and when you combine that with the higher quality lens than your entry level 720p and 1080p, then you are going to see a LOT more details and that noise that other projectors are hiding will reveal. Its like getting high end speakers that are not very forgiving with bad recorded material.
Make sure you have a nice fL (12 to 16) and it looks stunning.
Feel free to check the Screenshots thread for some of my pics.
Regards

IMHO , what you should consider is the difference between an older High End 720p and the new crop of less expensive 1080p Projectors . In most cases those less expensive 1080p projectors have no real advantage (other than pixel fill for view distance) over some of the older high end 720p models that can now be found for much less $ (like InFocus 7210 , Sharp 12K mkII , BenQ 8720 , etc.) . If you are holding out for a really nice 1080p model to drop to reasonable pricing I think you'll be wasting a good deal of time where you could be enjoying an amazing 720p model . Now if you are thinking of waiting for 1080p to drop to somewhere around the current entry level 720p prices I think you'll be waiting a much longer time . Image quality is not all about resolution and the real difference between 720p and 1080p is minimal when all else is equal (other than view distance) . My other suggestion is to avoid those entry level 1080p LCD models , they just do not compare to a really good 720p DLP .

A thread like this always seems to stir up trouble so let us hope that those who wish to comment can keep it civil and simply express their opinion on the matter and not take things to a personal level ... here's to hoping :) .

Best of Luck ,
-- Jason

Did you get the problems worked out with the Sharp? I can't remember what you had before the Sharp. What was it and how do the images compare?

Perhaps one further thing to consider.

When watching a 2.35:1 1080/24p source (aka BluRay) on a native 720p display your only going to get ~544 active scan lines which hardly seems worth the effort. ... just food for thought.

noserider, there are a million more pixels in a 1080p image than a 720p image. But wether or not you see a noticible difference will very largely depend on your source, how good your eyes are, and how much motion is in a given scene of a movie.

720p looks HD...it looks "oh my god that is so sharp". 1080p is the same thing, only sharper, and thats assuming you are watching a very good source, like a super-sharp well-mastered BD or HDDVD running at 1080p.

I have no desire whatsoever to move from my 720p unit to a 1080p unit. The visual payoff just isn't there, its more like an evolutionary step than a revolutionary one.

Think of it this way: a 480p DVD still looks very good projected at 100" or more. At 720p that 480p looks soft, but still watchable. At 1080p, the 720p image looks...perhaps...a little softer, but its still razor sharp and HD looking, so the bang for your buck isn't there the way the jump from ED (480p) to HD (720p or 1080p) is.

Short answer: you may notice an increase in sharpness going from 720p to 1080p, but its going to be more of a "yeah, thats a little bit sharper" reaction than a "WOAH its like SUPER HD!" reaction.

This is probably best-presented perspective on the difference I've read - I'm in 100% agreement. 720p rocks. Only enormous (120"+) screens (and a correspondingly close viewing ratio) accentuate the pixel count advantage of 1080p to an actionable degree.

My next PJ will probably be a 1080p LCD, but that won't be soon. I'm thinking of switching to LCD for the zoom so I can do a lens-less CIH setup zooming in and out. The Mits HC4900 is very interesting, but it'll take something like that, with significantly better contrast than my DC2 DLP for around $1k to get me to upgrade. Regardless, 90% of my content is 720p, so life is good :)

Perhaps one further thing to consider.

When watching a 2.35:1 1080/24p source (aka BluRay) on a native 720p display your only going to get ~544 active scan lines which hardly seems worth the effort. ... just food for thought.

I fail to see your point, the black bars will do the same proportional "damage" to a 1080 pj...is not like you are going to get 1080 lines when watching 2:35 movies just because you have a 1080 projector....
And if you think its really hardly worth the effort, I would be glad to show you my lowly 7210 in action. ;)

I think he was referring to older 720p units versus newer 720p units or 1080p units, and not to take those claims of "20,000:1 Contrast Ratio"'s too seriously. The key here is to buy the best 720p projector you can, and try to ignore the lure of the "cheap 1080p units". You'll get a much better picture from a good 720p than a low-end 1080p right now.


Gotta totally disagree with you here. At the prices of the Sanyo Z2000 1080P LCD projector for example, well below $2000 with the $600 rebates, why waist your money on a "high end" 720P projector? It will blow away any 720P project including DLP. Twice the resolution, deep blacks, bright colors- Blu-ray movies will blow you away. I didn't think I would see such an improvement from 720P to 1080P but it was there. ;)

Tim Sly ,

You can certainly disagree , it's your right but make no mistake in that there is not any LCD Projector out there under $3K that can best a high end 720p DLP from the last 2-3 years ( we are talking DLP's that were $8K + just a couple years ago ) . Brightness and Resolution does not mean better picture quality and this is the misconception that many people have . There is not an LCD out there that can match the real world black level of a high end DLP (not even the new LCD PJ panels can do it) . Most of the LCD's also use dynamic iris tricks to obtain their rated contrast ratios (which is not to say that this has not been going on for years because it has and it certainly is not exclusive to LCD PJ's but they tend to rate their CR much higher than a real world D65 calibration would allow) .

Anyway there are many reasons why DLP offers a better overall image but we don't need to turn this thread into an LCD vs. DLP debate , it's been done a million times and DLP always comes out on top because you cannot argue with the simple facts . There is a reason why the top digital home theaters use DLP/LCOS and not LCD . But to be fair the truth of the matter is that many of these 'high end' DLP models should not truly even be in this area of the forum (sub $3K) because they still perform well beyond their current competition .

--- Jason

Amen to that DaGame and no need for me to say anything else.
I think the OP should have enough information to make a decision even if he needs to sit down and decide who to trust. I dont think he will be disappointed either way but IMHO if he wants to get the best IQ then the high end 720p recommendation is the one to go for.
Regards

Also I'm running my cable signal thru a Onkyo 605 and all my Comcast channels are showing a 1080i feed. That is a bit confusing to me as well. Why does it show that? Thanks
I have Comcast and I'm using a Scientific Atlantic 8300HD box. In the setup menu for the cable box you can select 1080 or 720 output. I have an older 540 x 960 resolution Panasonic projector, and on my projector the 1080 output looks better. If I had a 720 projector it is possible the 720 output from the box would look better. When you get your projector up and running you can check both 720 and 1080 output and see which output resolution looks best to you.

Did you get the problems worked out with the Sharp? I can't remember what you had before the Sharp. What was it and how do the images compare?


Yeah I had to do a factory reset in the service menu and then calibrate the color wheel index , so the Sharp is good to go and should be getting the ISF treatment soon (need to get 100 hours on the lamp first) . I have had many PJ's over the last 8 years but right before the Sharp is the Mitsu HC3000 (which I still have) .The Sharp 12K mkII is a definite step above the HC3000 and the HC3000 is no slouch . The 12K mkII has a black level that I have never seen on another digital (with the exception of an RS1) . It also has some of the best optics available ( Minolta lens that is worth more than most the PJ's in the sub $3K forum ;) ) . The 12K mkII has literally triple the real world CR of the HC3000 , which is very impressive to say the least .

--- Jason

We just did this demo yesterday for a customer, his wife and ~25 year old son. This was shown in a dark room on a 106" Da-llite High Contrast cinema Vision screen at the customer's home. Seating distance ~15 feet, I didn't measure it. We used an LG BH200 combo Blu-Ray/ HD DVD player.

A little background on how this shootout came to be. This home's 5 year old 5700 died and Infocus wanted $600 to fix it. So dad figured it would be a good time to upgrade. Dad's budget was initially <$1300. We gave him a good price on our demo Infocus IN76 with 40 hours on it or an Optoma HD65 (which we didn't have in stock). The IN76 would also be a good fit since there is alread a DVI to M1 cable installed and no cabling or adapters would be needed.

The son is somewhat of a techie as he works in graphic arts and animation industry. I think this whole shootout came about because the son thought we were trying to move old technology on his dad when he had heard we suggested a 720P demo infocus for his room. Remember, dad's budget was initially <$1300. The son convinced him he needed 1080P and asked what we had. The Panny, Marantz 15S1 and JVC RS2 was the only thing we had in stock. The latter two being way more than he was willing to stretch the budget.

So we brought 3 projectors.
Panny 2000
Planar 7130
IN76

We did a quick user calibration on each using the new BR DVE-HD Basics.

We only watched HD clips from HD-DVD or Blu-ray, Direct TV and one VCR tape for fun. Customer's son initially insisted on 1080P source thinking the resolution would trump the others and he'd be able to show how much detail they were missing. They currently do not have a HD disc format. Only DVD, VCR and Direct TV with OTA HD for local.

In the end they all preferred the DLPs including the son. The customer is definitely not a techie and would not care about DLP or LCD but the son was surprised that other aspects of a picture were more important than resolution alone in overall PQ. He thanked us for spending the time to give him a demo and educate him.

The customer chose the 7130. He debating going with the IN76 since we had given him a very good price on it but eventually decided he didn't want to buy a demo. The Planar and Panny were new out of the box for the demo.

If all aspects of PQ are equal then 1080 certainly trumps 720. When you are comparing some high end 720 PJs that are being sold dirt cheap to the bargain 1080P PJs the choice isn't as clear. If you aren't close enough for pixel structure to bother you, you might consider a higher end 720 or at least do a side by side before buying something on 'specs' alone.

Bob

Tim Sly ,

You can certainly disagree , it's your right but make no mistake in that there is not any LCD Projector out there under $3K that can best a high end 720p DLP from the last 2-3 years ( we are talking DLP's that were $8K + just a couple years ago ) . Brightness and Resolution does not mean better picture quality and this is the misconception that many people have . There is not an LCD out there that can match the real world black level of a high end DLP (not even the new LCD PJ panels can do it) . Most of the LCD's also use dynamic iris tricks to obtain their rated contrast ratios (which is not to say that this has not been going on for years because it has and it certainly is not exclusive to LCD PJ's but they tend to rate their CR much higher than a real world D65 calibration would allow) .

Anyway there are many reasons why DLP offers a better overall image but we don't need to turn this thread into an LCD vs. DLP debate , it's been done a million times and DLP always comes out on top because you cannot argue with the simple facts . There is a reason why the top digital home theaters use DLP/LCOS and not LCD . But to be fair the truth of the matter is that many of these 'high end' DLP models should not truly even be in this area of the forum (sub $3K) because they still perform well beyond their current competition .

--- Jason

I never mentioned "high end" DLPs so why the long discourse on it? And you are right it doesn't belong in this Sub $3000 thread.
Some of the Sub $3000 LCDs are every bit as good as their DLP counterparts IN THE SAME price range.

In my opinion, 1080P projectors in this Sub $3000 price range now days can blow away 720P projectors. And when they are so close in price, why wouldn't you go for 1080P? Since Christmas their have been some great deals on 1080P projectors like the Sanyo Z2000 which I mentioned. They are well BELOW $2000. Why would you ever get a 720P just to save a few hundred dollars??

I fail to see your point, the black bars will do the same proportional "damage" to a 1080 pj...is not like you are going to get 1080 lines when watching 2:35 movies just because you have a 1080 projector....

True, but you will get ~814 active scan lines, which is a much better ratio than ~544. :)

Again the proof is in the pudding...check a high end 720p and then let me know... ;)

I never mentioned "high end" DLPs so why the long discourse on it? And you are right it doesn't belong in this Sub $3000 thread.
Some of the Sub $3000 LCDs are every bit as good as their DLP counterparts IN THE SAME price range.

In my opinion, 1080P projectors in this Sub $3000 price range now days can blow away 720P projectors. And when they are so close in price, why wouldn't you go for 1080P? Since Christmas their have been some great deals on 1080P projectors like the Sanyo Z2000 which I mentioned. They are well BELOW $2000. Why would you ever get a 720P just to save a few hundred dollars??

Well maybe because these High End DLP's that we are talking about now cost less than that Z2000 ;) .

--- Jason

True, but you will get ~814 active scan lines, which is a much better ratio than ~544. :)

For less than the cost of a GOOD 1080p unit (and I am not talking about the entry level 1080p models) you could go 720p with an anamorphic lens and then the difference is 814 vs. 720 ;) .


*** But anyway it almost seems like people are starting to get a bit snappy so let's all just move along and let the thread have a happy ending :) .

-- Jason

I think the price is what threw Tim off. Yes, if you are comparing retail the high end 720P projectors would still be in the other forum. But, there are PJs that were $10k and up not too long ago now discontinued being blown out so it is talked about in this forum.

Examples:

Marantz VP12S4 found for as little as $2K and was $12K or more depending on lens a year ago.

Sharp 12K II Originally $8k and some members found it for $1500.

Infocus 7210 orinally $7k or 8K (I forget) and some specials had it for $1k.

There are many others as companies are taking a loss because everyone has in their mind that 1080P must be better irregardless of the other qualities. These higher end PJs typically have better native on/off and ANSI contrast, accuracy, color saturation, lens quality, overall build quality, etc.

There are still a few good deals to be had but getting harder to find.

Bob

Holy moly! I'm getting dizzy. I'm sure many other Newbs like me however are learning tons from this thread. Just need some clarification from you pros again on something. The topic has started to focus a little on "high end" 720's a bit. I'm still heavily favoring picking up a HC 1500 for $750.00 ish. Do you guys consider this in that "high end" category and if not what is a couple of other DLP's that might be a bit more for say $1200 and under I should consider? Then I promise to not beat this nearly dead horse any longer and move on to the screen forum:D

By high end 720p we mean something like the Infocus 7210 or Sharp 12K II. Several have been mentioned already.
Most of them feature the Dark Chip 3 and high quality lenses. As any camera buff knows, a lens is KEY to Image Quality. Entry level projectors obviously cant give you great lenses as any good lens costs quite some $$$. Mistu HC3000/3100 , InFocus IN76 , Sharp DT-500/510 are also great choices.
Regards

Holy moly! I'm getting dizzy. I'm sure many other Newbs like me however are learning tons from this thread. Just need some clarification from you pros again on something. The topic has started to focus a little on "high end" 720's a bit. I'm still heavily favoring picking up a HC 1500 for $750.00 ish. Do you guys consider this in that "high end" category and if not what is a couple of other DLP's that might be a bit more for say $1200 and under I should consider? Then I promise to not beat this nearly dead horse any longer and move on to the screen forum:D

No. The HC1500 is an entry-level DLP projector at 720p, its the successor to the HC1000 from last yeear...perhaps it debuted the year before, I can't recall.

A Higher-end model would be, say, the HC3000 that GamePimp used to have....it was a better model, had a manual iris to achieve deeper blacks, etc, etc.

But when folks are talking about HIGH end models, they mean like the Sharp's or Marantz models that you can occasionally find new for $1500 or so that were $5000 to $10,000 (yes) just a few years ago.

The HC1500 is a fine entry level DLP that will throw an outstanding image. If you can, I'd try to find a DLP that had a manual Iris, or one that has the DarkChip 3 DMD in there........I'm a bit out of the loop so I can't suggest model numbers right now, but those might not be in the $1500 pricerage you need.

I never mentioned "high end" DLPs so why the long discourse on it? And you are right it doesn't belong in this Sub $3000 thread.
Some of the Sub $3000 LCDs are every bit as good as their DLP counterparts IN THE SAME price range.

In my opinion, 1080P projectors in this Sub $3000 price range now days can blow away 720P projectors. And when they are so close in price, why wouldn't you go for 1080P? Since Christmas their have been some great deals on 1080P projectors like the Sanyo Z2000 which I mentioned. They are well BELOW $2000. Why would you ever get a 720P just to save a few hundred dollars??

Where would I find a Sanyo Z2000 well below 2k?

Never mind I found the 600 dollar rebate, thanks..

I agree with Jason and as a proud new owner of the Infocus 7210 I can tell you that getting an older 720P makes a lot of sense. You get quality lenses which is VERY important among many other things.
ondaedg, the 7210 is a VERY bright projector and when you combine that with the higher quality lens than your entry level 720p and 1080p, then you are going to see a LOT more details and that noise that other projectors are hiding will reveal. Its like getting high end speakers that are not very forgiving with bad recorded material.
Make sure you have a nice fL (12 to 16) and it looks stunning.
Feel free to check the Screenshots thread for some of my pics.
Regards

Luis,

I agree that there are some characteristics to the 7210 that make it very attractive. However, there are other things to consider should there be an issue with the 7210. The high bulb costs and the inability of Infocus to replace faulty units are two that should be strongly considered before buying one right now. I know of several who have recently purchased the 7210 and have warranty issues that can not be resolved properly because Infocus does not have any 7210s left to replace those units. The 7210 may produce a better picture than a hc1500, but it isn't that MUCH better that I would risk purchasing one over the hc1500.

Is this rebate from a forum sponsor?

I agree on the warranty and IF the time comes, I would deal with it. I disagree in the quality not been that much better than the 1500...while I havent seen the 1500, I have seen the 3000 and still there is a good gap between the two. Optics alone is a no contest.
Again, is not easy to find the 7210 from authorized dealers but thats the reason other examples were given.
At the end of the day is all about expectations and he will probably be happy with a 1500 too, its a fine projector in its own.
Regards

Is this rebate from a forum sponsor?

It is from any authorized Sanyo dealer. Check out a couple forum sponsors who sell projectors and get their selling price by calling them or checking their websites. They will include the original $300 rebate in the Z2000 projector box when they ship it and then you download the additional $300 rebate from Sanyo. The second rebate is only good if you have the original one and send them together.
(The original rebate also has the option to choose a GPS navigator instead of the first $300.)

Well maybe because these High End DLP's that we are talking about now cost less than that Z2000 ;) .

--- Jason

Less than $1600? Are they discontinued/used models?

Less than $1600? Are they discontinued/used models?


Tim , yes these are discontinued high end DLP models that we are talking about ( sorry I did not make that clear from the get go ;) ) .

-- Jason

Interesting thread.
For a great 720 PJ at <$1900 with factory warranty, try the Benq store.
They have a refurbished PE8720 with a superb lens/optical path.
I saw one go on ebay recently for less than $1000.
The same people who purchased high end 720s are now moving to high end 1080s and getting rid of some superb PJs at fantastic prices.
Another argument for the older high end 720s is that presumably the bugs have been worked out...and you get the benifit of high end build quality without early adopter prices.
My .02

GREAT INFO!

I HAVE THE INFOCUS X1 RIGHT NOW, I AM GOING TO PULL THE TRIGGER AND UPGRADE TO THE Mitsubishi HC1500. I BEEN READING ALOT ON THIS SITE AND THINK FOR THE MONEY IT WILL BLOW AWAY MY X1 FROM WHAT I READ. I LOVE THE X1 SO I'M GOING TO KEEP IT FOR THE KIDS & SET IT UP OUTSIDE FOR MOVIE NIGHT UNDER THE STARS..LOL

ONE QUESTION THOUGH :

I WILL BE RUNNING COMPONENT WIRE TO MY DVD PLAYER [ SOON TO GET A BLU-RAY ] WHAT IS THE DIFFERANCE FROM RUNNING COMPONENT WIRE TO HDMI WIRE FROM THE UNIT? IS IT JUST LESS WIRES TO RUN? REASON BEING I WOULD HAVE TO TAKE DOWN ALL MY CROWN MOLDING TO RUN A HDMI AND DON'T WANT TO IF THE COMPONENT WIRE WILL DO THE JOB [ ALREADY INSTALLED ]

THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT INFO

BUELLER

Someone can correct me, but for HD material, Component will look great, but I'm not sure you'll be able to upconvert SD over Component, so if that's important to you then think about running the HDMI. Enjoy your Mits :)

but I'm not sure you'll be able to upconvert SD over Component

does anyone know??? please let me know, don't want to rip everything down for an hdmi if I don't have too.

Thanks Bueller

Someone can correct me, but for HD material, Component will look great, but I'm not sure you'll be able to upconvert SD over Component, so if that's important to you then think about running the HDMI. Enjoy your Mits :)

does anyone know??? please let me know, don't want to rip everything down for an hdmi if I don't have too.

Thanks Bueller
nightfly13 is correct: almost all "upconverting" DVD/BD/HD players will allow upconverted SD material only over HDMI. Component allows native HD material at 720/1080, but SD material gets capped at 480/576 - i.e. everything stays where it started. This is due to copy protection paranoia on the part of the media producers, not an inherent technical challenge (which is why some DVD players will upconvert over component thanks to hacks and other unofficial enablers...).

shinksma

You can upconvert over component if, when you rip the DVD's, you remove the copyright and protection flags.....I believe.

ok I will chime in here since i just in the last 2 years went from an InFocus IN72 480p to a Mitsubishi HD1000U 720P to a Benq W9000 1080P...i must tell you the BIGGEST difference was going from 480p to 720p..there was an OMFG experience. that being said...the 1080p with blue ray and even upconverting dvds on a PS3 is incredible. i have a 120" screen and i really noticed a difference...but i am a perfectionist and i got an incredible deal. you will not be disappointed with the HC1500 i'm sure, however, if you can afford it now go with a 1080p, or if not use that for a year and then flip to a 1080p when they are cheaper. i tend to flip every year or so. just my thoughts...check my other posts for some screenshots if you like.

If you've not had a projector before, the HC1500 (replaced the HD1000) will give you a very nice image to start with. I've seen the HD1000, and have the SP7210 myself. You're just going to have to drop some dough and get some self experience before you can start saying "I want this more" or "wish that was better". The HD1000/HC1500, for their cost, should not give you a "I didn't get what I paid for and enjoy" feeling. Are you generally an easy going person or a complainer? Guess that'll decide how pissed you might feel you should have paid more for incremental improvement you didn't know you wanted in the first place.

Thanks for the responses,

I have been using the infocus x1 for about 4 to 5 years now and have been very happy with the picture but I am ready to get that OMFG feeling. I learned alot just from this site and i thank everyone that has responded. From what I've read so far everyone say's there wasn't that much of a differance [ picture wise] going from 720p to 1080p and the HC1500 seems like the best choice for the money. I wish my budget was more at the moment but I only have about $850 to play with & want to get the best I can within that range.

Bueller

Well maybe because these High End DLP's that we are talking about now cost less than that Z2000 ;) .

--- Jason


I respect pimps opion on this subject.But I think one would have to be nuts to buy a old 720 dlp.These older unit being sold at good prices now do not even have Hdmi.Plus most are dim.Obsolete IN MY OPION.:eek:

I respect pimps opion on this subject.But I think one would have to be nuts to buy a old 720 dlp.These older unit being sold at good prices now do not even have Hdmi.Plus most are dim.Obsolete IN MY OPION.:eek:

And of course you have a right to that opinion as well but it would be the wrong one ;) . These units at least have HDCP-DVI (which accpets all variations of HDMI) and if you think the InFocus 7210 is dim then you have not seen one (loud .. yes , but dim ... not hardly) . By that logic high end crt projectors are even more obsolete , tube amps ... gone . There are many more examples but newer does not automatically = better my friend . The new trend is resolution and brightness , all else be damned . It is sad really because the vast majority that speak their mind on this subject simply do not have enough first hand experience to be doing so ( I would wager that most have never even seen a D65 image in this area of the forum ) . I would also wager that many here have seen a few different projectors at best and most of those were probably in poorly designed showrooms (and uncalibrated) .

-- Jason

These older unit being sold at good prices now do not even have Hdmi.Plus most are dim.Obsolete IN MY OPION.

the hc1500 has a hdmi and is 1600 lum's.......?

But I think one would have to be nuts to buy a old 720 dlp.
While you are entitled to your opinion theres no need to call others nuts specially because in this case the only one acting nuts its you by obviously stating your opinion about something you really don't have knowledge of.
While I try to stay away from this type of post, I cant simply ignore it when people for some odd reason, decide to post about something they have no idea about.
For instance not having HDMI...well the infocus has M1 which can go to HDMI or DVI and as Dagame said, you have never seen one 7210 in action as its a light canon...so much for you theory... :rolleyes:
On the other hand how about been nuts by not taking advantage of the higher quality lenses you get by buying this units and getting DC3 among other things you have no hope of getting with all the new entry level PJs.
Anyone into photography knows that lenses are THE key to IQ and you can expect to compare the lens of a 2K unit to the one on a unit that retailed for 6-8k two years ago.
Its all about common sense...

Dagame you were right on with your reply but I couldnt just remain silent. ;)

If more pixels were all you need to determine IQ then I have a Kodak EasyShare V1233 with an amazing 12Megapixels that I will change for a crappy Pentax K100D and its poor 6Megapixels! :D

We just did this demo yesterday for a customer, his wife and ~25 year old son. This was shown in a dark room on a 106" Da-llite High Contrast cinema Vision screen at the customer's home. Seating distance ~15 feet, I didn't measure it. We used an LG BH200 combo Blu-Ray/ HD DVD player.

A little background on how this shootout came to be. This home's 5 year old 5700 died and Infocus wanted $600 to fix it. So dad figured it would be a good time to upgrade. Dad's budget was initially <$1300. We gave him a good price on our demo Infocus IN76 with 40 hours on it or an Optoma HD65 (which we didn't have in stock). The IN76 would also be a good fit since there is alread a DVI to M1 cable installed and no cabling or adapters would be needed.

The son is somewhat of a techie as he works in graphic arts and animation industry. I think this whole shootout came about because the son thought we were trying to move old technology on his dad when he had heard we suggested a 720P demo infocus for his room. Remember, dad's budget was initially <$1300. The son convinced him he needed 1080P and asked what we had. The Panny, Marantz 15S1 and JVC RS2 was the only thing we had in stock. The latter two being way more than he was willing to stretch the budget.

So we brought 3 projectors.
Panny 2000
Planar 7130
IN76

We did a quick user calibration on each using the new BR DVE-HD Basics.

We only watched HD clips from HD-DVD or Blu-ray, Direct TV and one VCR tape for fun. Customer's son initially insisted on 1080P source thinking the resolution would trump the others and he'd be able to show how much detail they were missing. They currently do not have a HD disc format. Only DVD, VCR and Direct TV with OTA HD for local.

In the end they all preferred the DLPs including the son. The customer is definitely not a techie and would not care about DLP or LCD but the son was surprised that other aspects of a picture were more important than resolution alone in overall PQ. He thanked us for spending the time to give him a demo and educate him.

The customer chose the 7130. He debating going with the IN76 since we had given him a very good price on it but eventually decided he didn't want to buy a demo. The Planar and Panny were new out of the box for the demo.

If all aspects of PQ are equal then 1080 certainly trumps 720. When you are comparing some high end 720 PJs that are being sold dirt cheap to the bargain 1080P PJs the choice isn't as clear. If you aren't close enough for pixel structure to bother you, you might consider a higher end 720 or at least do a side by side before buying something on 'specs' alone.

Bob

Bob,

This is a very good post. I just want to confirm something: Are you saying when playing a blu-ray disc 1080p source, an older high end 720p projector such as the in76/7210 actually has a better overall PQ than a new sub$3000 1080P projector such as the panny 2000?

If you are buying a projector for your own home to be used exclusively for blu-ray movies, would you buy the infocus 7210/in76 at $1300 or the panny 2000 at $2000? And what if both are at the same price?

Thanks

A high end 720p model is the best value going right now. Especially at moderate viewing distances it is very hard to see differences between 720p and 1080p models.

High end 720p models have superior lenses and processors which when fed a good HD signal tend to look the same or even better than some 1080p counterparts.

A high end 720p model is the best value going right now. Especially at moderate viewing distances it is very hard to see differences between 720p and 1080p models.

High end 720p models have superior lenses and processors which when fed a good HD signal tend to look the same or even better than some 1080p counterparts.

Bargain hunters would of course argue that low end 720p models are the best value right now. Depends if you're looking for 'best PQ and performance under $2k or 'most shock and awe bang for the buck' in which case the $750 for the Mits is, in my view, and industry-shifting price-performance breakthrough. Especially for those who are newer to projectors or coming from an X1 or something.

Each has its own strengths and weaknesses. The Panny definitely has a different look than the DLPs. One might prefer one over the other. The 7210 would be better compared to the IN78. The only advantage to the IN76 over the 7210 is better 1080i processing and quieter. Here's some pros and cons of each.

7210 Pros:
Brightest of the 3 in its best mode with decent blacks
Sharpness
Good color accuracy out of the box.
Very good ANSI contrast - more 'Pop' than the others
Great Lens

7210 Cons:
Noise - loudest of the bunch
Poor 1080i processing

IN76 Pros:
Sharpness
Good color accuracy
More 'Pop' than the Panny in bright and mixed scenes

IN76 Cons:
Not as good black level as either of the other two

Panny 2000 Pros:
Great placement flexibility
Best black levels for dark scenes
No pixelization - good for sitting closer to screen
Resolution
noise - Definitely the quietest of the 3.
Vertical stretch for Anamorphic lens and 2.35 screens
Build quality - I like the look of the panny the best and it just feels more solid to me.

Panny 2000 Cons:
480i Processing
Dynamic Iris - Causes white and black crush in certain scenes and doesn't handle mixed scenes as well
Softer picture than the other two

All three are good projectors. You have to pick which qualities are most important to you.

Bob

While you are entitled to your opinion theres no need to call others nuts specially because in this case the only one acting nuts its you by obviously stating your opinion about something you really don't have knowledge of.
While I try to stay away from this type of post, I cant simply ignore it when people for some odd reason, decide to post about something they have no idea about.
For instance not having HDMI...well the infocus has M1 which can go to HDMI or DVI and as Dagame said, you have never seen one 7210 in action as its a light canon...so much for you theory... :rolleyes:
On the other hand how about been nuts by not taking advantage of the higher quality lenses you get by buying this units and getting DC3 among other things you have no hope of getting with all the new entry level PJs.
Anyone into photography knows that lenses are THE key to IQ and you can expect to compare the lens of a 2K unit to the one on a unit that retailed for 6-8k two years ago.
Its all about common sense...

Dagame you were right on with your reply but I couldnt just remain silent. ;)

If more pixels were all you need to determine IQ then I have a Kodak EasyShare V1233 with an amazing 12Megapixels that I will change for a crappy Pentax K100D and its poor 6Megapixels! :D


Hey their Luis.I did not call anyone nuts.You are reaching their.I just stated that IMHO going backawards to 720p is nuts.Pimp is right their are some good highend 720p going for good prices.But they all have faults.No HDMI loud no lens shift short or long zoom ect.Also Hd-dvd and BD will allways look better on a 1080p fp.No way around that.If your just playing old dvds and watching HDTV then a old 720p would work fine.But for me after buying Hdvd and Blueray I want 1080p.If some of you guys want to live in the past'Fine.I'am moving forward.I would say the panny 2000 will blow any of these old 720s away on HD dvds.

When viewing a 1080i source on HDTV will there be a noticeable difference in PQ on a 1080 projector VS a 720 projector? Also I'm running my cable signal thru a Onkyo 605 and all my comast channels are showing a 1080i feed. That is a bit confusing to me as well. Why does it show that? Thanks

Never had a 1080 projector so cant answer question 1. Your Comcast box when you set it up, you choose 720P or 1080I since your is set to 1080I I would think that is what your Onkyo is reporting. If I was to hook my Comcast to my projector I would set it to 720P. I am of the mind set when you can feed your PJ/TV/etc a native souce do so.

First of all, 720p have faults and so do 1080p.
Pimp is right their are some good highend 720p going for good prices.But they all have faults.No HDMI loud no lens shift short or long zoom ect
First, yes, most of 720p and DLPs in general lack lens shift but I would take that short coming over IQ shortcomings ANY DAY.
Second, the HDMI was already proven wrong.
Also Hd-dvd and BD will allways look better on a 1080p fp.
Third, 1080p DOES NOT ALWAYS LOOK BETTER on 1080p....more pixels yes, better it depends in so much more than that. Again, that will be like comparing a Pentax K100D and its "measly" 6MPs to a point and shoot with 12MP...the K100D will kick the crap of out it in IQ at half the MPs...go figure.
Of course if all the other factors were equal then yes 1080p will beat 720p but you are sadly missing the point here, all other factors are not equal, the older highend 720p have lots of higher quality components than entry level 1080p and there is not denying that.
Once again, do a research on camera lenses and then let me know.
If some of you guys want to live in the past'Fine.
So if living in the past means selecting better optics for razor sharp images, better build quality and overall IQ over more pixels and supporting components that create a lesser quality image and getting all that at a cheaper price then by all means, I want to stay in the past!
What really sounds to me like living in the past is sitting down looking at some specs and thinking well...there are more pixels here than there so this one IS better!
Its not about living in the past, is about been smart. ;)
I would say the panny 2000 will blow any of these old 720s away on HD dvds.
And this statement summarizes the issue at hand. You are stating something without any knowledge just based on numbers. If you are happy with the 2000 or whatever pj you have, then good for you but do you really think it helps the OP to post this type of information when you clearly have no experience with what a high end 720p can do?
I bought my 720p not even a month ago and I could have gone with a 1080p as well but all my research, recommendations from very wise forum members that have tried and measured most of the entry level 1080s and older high end 720s, plus my own tests and experiences, clearly showed that higher end 720s at low prices were the real deal and what I wanted.
Of course, if I wanted to spend a LOT more and go with a high end 1080p then sure, I would be getting more pixels and the superior IQ but I didnt want to spend that much right now and all the entry level 1080s fell short of the best 720p in all but the pixel department.
Again, I am not saying that higher end 720s are the best choice for all people as there are other factors like setup flexibility that LCDs have over most DLPs, etc, but if those factors are not important and IQ is the only thing that matters then the choice is clear, get the older 720p or spend more and get a higher end 1080p to get the extra pixels without sacrificing image quality.

This ends my discussion here....to the OP, I hope you can sort all this information and judge what some of us offered sharing actual hands on testing and research against the knowledge of reading a brochure or specs on the internet. Newest is not always best....shop smart and enjoy whatever you buy. ;)

Luis,
The 7210 may produce a better picture than a hc1500, but it isn't that MUCH better that I would risk purchasing one over the hc1500.


intresting.

very intrestisting...



murph

I guess how much better something is over another is in the eye of the beholder but to my eyes not even the HC3000 is in the same league.
If by risk he means that infocus no longer has 7210s for replacement then fair enough otherwise I dont follow.
If mine ever fails I would fight my way to a IN78 replacement..hopefully. Also, the 7210 is just one of several high end 720s you can find not the only one.

Funny how all the people with 720 projectors are defending 720 projectors. And all the people with 1080 defend 1080.

Anyway my brother has a Sharp 12K2 which is considered one of the best 720 projectors out there. Yes the black levels and contrast are outstanding. But these are not easy to find. I must say it was the best picture I've seen ever.

A few months ago I purchased a HC4900 for $999 (long story) which is the 'worst' 1080 projector out there. I will admit the black levels are not as good as the Sharp 12K2. But the ease of setting up (lense shift), sharpness, brightness, and color was significantly better when playing Bluray. The most obvious was sharpness (even at 12 feet away) the Sharp just could not compare to the HC4900, sorry. I guess the question is what is more important black levels or color/sharpness/warranty/ease of use/ease of purchase?

I don't know how many of you actually have seen a calibrated Sharp 12K2 and a 1080p but there are advantages and disadvantages for both. IMO if you have a Bluray or intend to buy one in the near future 1080 is the way to go if the price is simular.

Amen sog35.If one invest in Blueray and Hddvd 1080p is the only way to go.Go to Bestbuy and play BD on a 720 set then same disk though a 1080p.Does not take a rocket scientist to see the difference.720p is on the way out.4k is next.BOB

Funny how all the people with 720 projectors are defending 720 projectors. And all the people with 1080 defend 1080.
Please remember that I just bought the 720p not even a month ago and could have easily gone with a cheap 1080 as well.

Go to Bestbuy and play BD on a 720 set then same disk though a 1080p
And what does that test have to do with a high end 720p vs an entry level 1080 again?

Does not take a rocket scientist to see the difference.
Apparently it does but perhaps it just requires well trained eyes to see the REAL difference,
In any case, to each its own.

Regards

Sub-$2K a properly calibrated DC3 720p (such as the InFocus 7210, Sharp MKII, Marantz, etc...) will SPANK any 1080p approaching that price range (Sanyo, Mitsu, Panny). End of story. Procurability is irrelevant.

If you're looking at spending $2.5-$3K+, then 720p is no longer as compelling, or necessary.

Funny how all the people with 720 projectors are defending 720 projectors. And all the people with 1080 defend 1080.

I don't know how many of you actually have seen a calibrated Sharp 12K2 and a 1080p but there are advantages and disadvantages for both. IMO if you have a Bluray or intend to buy one in the near future 1080 is the way to go if the price is simular.


$ 999 for a HC4900 Is a very good deal.:eek:

Most of the customers I installed for Paid way more then that for a HC4900.

As to defending older high end 720P's bought for pennies on the dollar .....

WELL I'M GUILTY as charged .:o

I am a proud owner Of The ugly lookin Sp-7210.
.
Again maybe its me and my old eye's But, I would never Trade A SP-7210 for a HC4900.
She may be noisy and ugly as sin. and made WAY back in 1957 but I know what my eyes like and the Sp-7210 For under a grand backed by a two year factory warranty and a Mack 3 year two bulb replacement plan Makes me and the family very happy.

Sure I'm embarrassed having 3/4 year old technology hanging from the ceiling But once again ( for the money) My eyes Like what they see.
And if you feel manufactures today give better and Newer Product for a lower Price and your Happy Then all is good.

one thing I have learned a long time ago when my bills where due is ...the customer is ALWAYS right.
And if Everyone is happy

Then ALL IS GOOD......


where's the Door.
And I pray this check doesn't bounce.



cheers

Murph:)

I have a few questions. Are rear projection TV's basically the same thing as front projection? If that is the case and I believe that it is. Are you guys saying that you would rather have a 3 or 4 year old high end 720P TV over a current model lower level 1080P TV? The older high end 720P TV is probably made with more durable parts, but I would think that the electronics in the 3 to 4 year newer TV would provide faster and better processing.

I have a few questions. Are rear projection TV's basically the same thing as front projection? .

The answer is no.
For starters.

one is front the other is rear


Size of image produced.
Lens responsibility.
Noise level,
just to name a few.


cheers

Murph:)

I think some people are taking this the wrong way , nobody is knocking any of the entry level 1080p models here , we are just saying that there is much more to image quality than resolution (anybody that disagrees has simply not seen enough different properly calibrated PJ's to know better) . There is no need for purchase justification here , many of us could have just as easily went with an entry level 1080p model . I have been ready to pull the 1080p trigger for months but none of the sub $3k 1080p models truly impress me the way the Sharp 12K mkII has (and I have seen them all) .

For placement flexibility the LCD's are nearly impossible to beat , this is a given but it does not mean the unit throws a better image . Keep in mind all those lens shift adjustments effect image quality especially when used to the extreme . There are DLP's out there with lens shift , like the Sharp 12K mkII , and while not as adjustable as an LCD it does allow for more placement options .

In terms of out and out PQ the HC4900 cannot match a Sharp 12K mkII but if you own one and are happy with it then that is really all that matters (it would take something closer to the HC6000 to compare with the 12K mkII and even then the 12K mkII will best it in certain areas) .

There is not an entry level 1080p model out there that has the top quality optics that most of these 'obsolete' high end 720p DLP's have and if you don't think this accounts for anything then be sure to ask somebody who knows a thing or two so they can fill you in ;) .

It's really easy to see that the '1080p' marketing machine has worked well . I am not saying that I would not luv to own a 1080p PJ but the least expensive one that I would buy over the 12K mkII would be the RS1 (and that is not in this area of the forum just yet) . It's funny how those with the most experience are stating that these high end 720p models throw a superior image to the entry level 1080p models but those that own those same 1080p models simply refuse to listen .

In the end it almost always seems to come down to an LCD vs. DLP debate in some manner (most of the entry level 1080p models are LCD and all of the discontinued high end 720p models we are discussing are DLP) . Like I have stated before ... there is a reason that you do not see LCD projectors used in high end theaters , LCD simply does not offer the better over all image (regardless of resolution) .

-- Jason

I have been resisting adding yet another opinion here but can't resist any longer. I am still using a Sanyo PLV-70 720p projector from 2002. I still like the picture. Do I think that there aren't a bunch of 720p and 1080p DLP and LCOS and LCD machines that aren't a whole lot better? Sure I do but I can accept the picture I see. I have a 110" gain 1.3 screen from which I sit 12-13 feet (more our less 1.5X width) in a light controlled batcave with black walls and ceiling. If I sat any further back, I could not see the difference between 720 and 1080 anyway--even with 20/20 vision (corrected). I can just see SDE if I look for it and if I don't look, I don't see it. The picture is very bright and the colors quite lifelike when well calibrated. ESPN HD sports look great but it's pretty clear that most HD on D* is very compressed. SD is awful but not because of my PJ. DVDs played on my Toshiba HD-XA2 look very very good. Ok, the HDs don't look that much better--marginally so, but they are better.

It isn't that I haven't seen better PJs or that I don't know the difference. It's just that I am happy with what I see and I have at least a few hundred hours left on my bulb. Where I am going is this post? Each of us has a budget. There are a lot of good PJs out there, and there are a lot of individual tastes. There is no one size fits all right or wrong. Find a picture you like and live it. I feel for the pefectionists who can't leave it alone. I see what they see and understand; I even admire their perceptivity and skill. I think their loyalty to what they have bought into, and what satisfies them, is admirable. They are generous. They want the OP to have what they are happy with (at the moment).

My message to the OP: find a deal you like and a PJ that shoots a picture you can live with and go enjoy it. Don't get caught up in a pixel race. Sure, we'll all have 1080p eventually. Let's just hope that the software and broadcast media has caught up to it and that our eyes are still good when that happens. I continue to look for an upmarket PJ that will make me want to abandon the Sanyo, but I haven't seen it yet. The hunt goes on because there are new models released every week. But in the meanwhile ESPN HD won't be improved by 1080p.

That's my 2 cents

The answer is no.
For starters.

one is front the other is rear


Size of image produced.
Lens responsibility.
Noise level,
just to name a few.


cheers

Murph:)

Rear projection and front projection technology has more similarities than it has differences. Saying one is front and the other is rear is a big difference is ridicules. Noise level: Both of them make noise from a cooling fan. Rear projection does not try as hard to keep the noise level down, but then again many of the older high end DLP's seem to make a lot of noise too. Lens responsibility: both have the responsibility to project an image on a screen.

I have a few questions. Are rear projection TV's basically the same thing as front projection? If that is the case and I believe that it is. Are you guys saying that you would rather have a 3 or 4 year old high end 720P TV over a current model lower level 1080P TV? The older high end 720P TV is probably made with more durable parts, but I would think that the electronics in the 3 to 4 year newer TV would provide faster and better processing.

I would take the old obsolete set if it were a high end 9" CRT RPTV , no doubt about it ;) .

-- Jason

I just upgraded from what can be considered an older "hi-end" 720p projector, the Optoma HD7100 to a new BenQ W5000.

I haven't gotten the W5000 yet, but it will be interesting to see how the older 720p DC3 compares to the new W5000 with dynamic iris and DC2.

I'll report back when i get my new one.

Kyle

I wouldn't consider HD7100 as a former hi-end projector. Try Sharp 12k, Marantz 12s4, Sim2 HT300E or Yamaha DPX-1200.

I wouldn't consider HD7100 as a former hi-end projector. Try Sharp 12k, Marantz 12s4, Sim2 HT300E or Yamaha DPX-1200.


That's funny actually, as I knew someone would have something to say.

Check again. If the Infocus 7210 is being talked about as high end, than the HD7100 is definitely in the same league.

For that matter, without doing a side by side comparison, how do you know it doesn't play with the 12K mkII, 12s4, sim2, etc... in regards to performance.

The other thing I wanted to say was that I don't think anyone is arguing that the lenses and build quality (and sometimes the processing/scaling) isn't better on the older high end 720p units.

The thing they seem to be arguing is that for the end result, are those thing enough to make up for the resolution difference. As far as sharpness goes, a better lens is going to make the image sharper, but if you have to scale/process a 1080p image, that's going to soften it too.

Kyle

Kyle ,

AKuan is correct with his statement , while the HD7100 is an excellent PJ (and was nearly impossible to beat for it's released price) it is not in the same class as the others mentioned (close but no cigar) . Read through the forums and see user comparisons , it throws a great image but was never considered 'high end' and was not meant to compete in that market like the H79 was designed and built for @ $10K (and yes I realize the HD7100 bests the H79 on some aspects but it also uses the 6 segment/4x CW vs. the 7 segment/5x of most of the high end dlp's) . Ask Tom/guitarman and I am sure he will have a slightly skewed opinion towards the optoma but he still cannot deny that the 7100 is not in the same class as the other units that we have been discussing , although it is better than the entry level 1080p models that have been mentioned . I guess for that matter we can all say that none of the units we are mentioning are truly 'high end' when there are units out there selling for $50,000 plus (but we'll save that for another area of the forum because it will be a while before we see sub $3K DLP 3 chippers) ;) .

By this same logic we should be saying that all 2K and 4K rez PJ's must be better than even those high end 1080p 3 chip DLP's but the truth is they are not in many regards ... it is not all about resolution .

Anyway things have got a little out of hand in this thread when the main point to the OP was simply not to base a purchase on resolution alone , there are truly many other aspects to consider :) .

Best Wishes ,
-- Jason

I just upgraded from what can be considered an older "hi-end" 720p projector, the Optoma HD7100 to a new BenQ W5000.

I haven't gotten the W5000 yet, but it will be interesting to see how the older 720p DC3 compares to the new W5000 with dynamic iris and DC2.


Looking forward to hearing about this!

Hey Dagamepimp'Knowing howmuch you like DLP I am surprised you did not get a Benq 5000.Seems to be a excellent fp.Seems also if one has the Sharp 12k you allmost have to have a Highpower screen.Do you like the Sharp better than the hc3000 mit.I had a hc3000 for a while.Really nice fp.Thanks Bob

I've read all the posts, very interesting. But I've seen the Sharp 2MK myself and I know for a FACT that even a low end 1080p (HC4900) shows a significantly sharper image. I would argue that the color/brightness is also superior. Read any of the reviews and they agree that the HC4900 is one of the sharpest 1080p projectors out there. Again there are advantages and disadvantages for a 'high end' 720 and a 'low end' 1080. Some people make like its a no brainer. It really depends on what is more important to you.

Some say ease of setup and ease of purchase should not be a consideration. Why not just get a CRT then? Some say black levels is more important than anything else. CRT again. I understand optics may be better but we are talking 720 vs 1080. The increased pixels make up for a lesser lense. And by the way the HC4900 did retail for $5000 when it first came out, so it ain't exactly a piece of junk.

I know I've heard these same arguments 3 years ago when people were arguing what was better a very good 480p or a low end 720. Do you guys with 720's even have Bluray? I'm sorry but the difference is pretty huge, especially for videogames and internet. 720 is just not enough, image looks slightly soft. But if you don't have a Bluray, then 720 makes all the sense.

Anyway I got my HC4900 for $999. My local CompUSA was closing so they had the HC4900 for $1499. Plus the $500 rebate was still in effect. So far I love it. I previously had a DLP and it was a nightmare to setup, plus even thought I did not see rainbows it did give me slight headaches. No regrets. For my situation 1080p did the job.

I would take the old obsolete set if it were a high end 9" CRT RPTV , no doubt about it ;) .

-- Jason

This I have a 7" CRT RPTV and LOVE IT. Which I had the forethought to have gotten 9".

I know I've heard these same arguments 3 years ago when people were arguing what was better a very good 480p or a low end 720. Do you guys with 720's even have Bluray? I'm sorry but the difference is pretty huge, especially for videogames and internet. 720 is just not enough, image looks slightly soft. But if you don't have a Bluray, then 720 makes all the sense.


I currently have a 1080p (Sony black perl) and 720P (Sharp 12K replaced by Yamaha DPX1100) projectors using a Carada 118" BW screen.
There is a very noticeable increase in sharpness and detail from my black Perl projector when watching a good BR movie sitting at 1.5x or less screen width compared with my 720p projector.
However, if I seat at 1.75x screen width distance or when viewing poorly transferred BR movie (which accounts for more than 60% IMHO) then the difference is rather minor.
I actually think that my Sony projector is too sharp and set sharpness control to minimum.
I used to have a CRT projector and still wish for better black level on my two projectors.
Honestly, I would choose a good (high-end) 720p projector over a 1080p projector with poor black level regardless of how bright and sharp that projector is (IMHO).

Kyle ,

AKuan is correct with his statement , while the HD7100 is an excellent PJ (and was nearly impossible to beat for it's released price) it is not in the same class as the others mentioned (close but no cigar) . Read through the forums and see user comparisons , it throws a great image but was never considered 'high end' and was not meant to compete in that market like the H79 was designed and built for @ $10K (and yes I realize the HD7100 bests the H79 on some aspects but it also uses the 6 segment/4x CW vs. the 7 segment/5x of most of the high end dlp's) . Ask Tom/guitarman and I am sure he will have a slightly skewed opinion towards the optoma but he still cannot deny that the 7100 is not in the same class as the other units that we have been discussing , although it is better than the entry level 1080p models that have been mentioned . I guess for that matter we can all say that none of the units we are mentioning are truly 'high end' when there are units out there selling for $50,000 plus (but we'll save that for another area of the forum because it will be a while before we see sub $3K DLP 3 chippers) ;) .

By this same logic we should be saying that all 2K and 4K rez PJ's must be better than even those high end 1080p 3 chip DLP's but the truth is they are not in many regards ... it is not all about resolution .

Anyway things have got a little out of hand in this thread when the main point to the OP was simply not to base a purchase on resolution alone , there are truly many other aspects to consider :) .

Best Wishes ,
-- Jason


Nice post Jason, I appreciate the well thought out/written reply!

To the OP, there is no single best FP for everyone. Everyone's room, tastes, source, viewing habits, etc... differ. Honestly, if you don't have Blu-ray or HDDVD and don't plan on getting it for awhile, save some money and get a 720p. If you want to spend only 700 ish, get the HC1500 or equivilant. If you can spend closer to 1000 ish, get an older "high end" 720p unit. If you don't have a FP yet, then whatever you get is going to be amazing honestly.

I started out with an 92" screen and H31 and when I moved to the HD7100 with 120" screen, the difference was not as great as going from a 30" CRT to the H31 in the first place.

Kyle

Hey Dagamepimp'Knowing howmuch you like DLP I am surprised you did not get a Benq 5000.Seems to be a excellent fp.Seems also if one has the Sharp 12k you allmost have to have a Highpower screen.Do you like the Sharp better than the hc3000 mit.I had a hc3000 for a while.Really nice fp.Thanks Bob

Bob ,

The BenQ 5000 is an excellent PJ , no doubt but still not as impressive as the RS1 and not enough of a leap in performance to justify the purchase price over the now discontinued 12K mkII ( see I don't only like DLP ;) ) .

Yes the 12K mkII is not super bright in it's best mode but it is capable of 1000 lumens if/when needed so calling it dim is a bit of a stretch (and yes I do have a HiPower screen) . Keep in mind this is a high end unit and meant to be installed in rooms that have total light control and dark walls , it's an HT designed projector to the core and not meant for casual daytime viewing in a sunny living room .

The HC3000 is a great little PJ , very solid performance without breaking the bank and it out performs just about any of these newer entry level 720p models ( HD1000 / HC1500 / HD65 / HD70 / etc. ) . The 12K mkII is in a different class , no doubt there , as is the IF 7210 , BenQ 8720 , Samsung 710 , etc. .

-- Jason

I've read all the posts, very interesting. But I've seen the Sharp 2MK myself and I know for a FACT that even a low end 1080p (HC4900) shows a significantly sharper image. I would argue that the color/brightness is also superior. Read any of the reviews and they agree that the HC4900 is one of the sharpest 1080p projectors out there. Again there are advantages and disadvantages for a 'high end' 720 and a 'low end' 1080. Some people make like its a no brainer. It really depends on what is more important to you.

Some say ease of setup and ease of purchase should not be a consideration. Why not just get a CRT then? Some say black levels is more important than anything else. CRT again. I understand optics may be better but we are talking 720 vs 1080. The increased pixels make up for a lesser lense. And by the way the HC4900 did retail for $5000 when it first came out, so it ain't exactly a piece of junk.

I know I've heard these same arguments 3 years ago when people were arguing what was better a very good 480p or a low end 720. Do you guys with 720's even have Bluray? I'm sorry but the difference is pretty huge, especially for videogames and internet. 720 is just not enough, image looks slightly soft. But if you don't have a Bluray, then 720 makes all the sense.

Anyway I got my HC4900 for $999. My local CompUSA was closing so they had the HC4900 for $1499. Plus the $500 rebate was still in effect. So far I love it. I previously had a DLP and it was a nightmare to setup, plus even thought I did not see rainbows it did give me slight headaches. No regrets. For my situation 1080p did the job.


Oh no , it's certainly not a no brainer choice to make and I don't think anybody is implying that it is as we all have certain needs/wants that have to be met and there is not a single unit out there that works for everyone (if there was then we would all have it) . Every model mentioned here has pros/cons and every one will have trade-offs when compared to another unit in its class (price range) .

Of course most of us HT snobs have blu ray and/or hd dvd (I have both) . I would not even begin to voice an opinion on the matter if I had not seen what I have seen , I am to the point now that I have seen more PJ's than I can remember (name) and there are others here like BobL that have probably seen even more . Some of us just prefer the smooth look of DLP , LCD is still very lifeless and digital looking to my eyes and yes LCD is usually sharper than DLP (that is by design and not always an indicator of lens quality) .

I say great for you if you are happy with the 4900 but again like you say there are compromises to be made depending upon what is important to each of us (me , I am the type that strives for absolute image quality regardless of all else and I came from CRT front projection owning several different models) . I admit that if I had the ability to go back to a CRT PJ then I would be seeking out a high end 9" . Our current house simply will not allow for a big heavy crt bolted to the ceiling and I cannot have it floor mounted because of my son (tried that already with an NEC XG110) .

The HC4900 for $999 is a steal honestly and I don't begrudge you one bit for that purchase choice , after all it works great for you and puts a smile on your face :) .

--- Jason

Classy post DaGame, as usual. :)
I agree with every single point. I am also in this for the IQ over anything else, so I will try as hard as possible to work around setup issues...if I could I would also like to try a 9" CRT but since I cant , I am more than happy with what I got.
Regards

I currently have a 1080p (Sony black perl) and 720P (Sharp 12K replaced by Yamaha DPX1100) projectors using a Carada 118" BW screen.
There is a very noticeable increase in sharpness and detail from my black Perl projector when watching a good BR movie sitting at 1.5x or less screen width compared with my 720p projector.
However, if I seat at 1.75x screen width distance or when viewing poorly transferred BR movie (which accounts for more than 60% IMHO) then the difference is rather minor.
I actually think that my Sony projector is too sharp and set sharpness control to minimum.
I used to have a CRT projector and still wish for better black level on my two projectors.
Honestly, I would choose a good (high-end) 720p projector over a 1080p projector with poor black level regardless of how bright and sharp that projector is (IMHO).

Absolutely , agreed , if you need to sit close (1.5x or less) then by all means go for the 1080p model .

It seems that most of us that came from CRT projection truly value great black level because we know what that means for the over all image , I wish everyone could have the chance to experience a well set up CRT PJ at least once .

-- Jason

Nice post Jason, I appreciate the well thought out/written reply!

To the OP, there is no single best FP for everyone. Everyone's room, tastes, source, viewing habits, etc... differ. Honestly, if you don't have Blu-ray or HDDVD and don't plan on getting it for awhile, save some money and get a 720p. If you want to spend only 700 ish, get the HC1500 or equivilant. If you can spend closer to 1000 ish, get an older "high end" 720p unit. If you don't have a FP yet, then whatever you get is going to be amazing honestly.

I started out with an 92" screen and H31 and when I moved to the HD7100 with 120" screen, the difference was not as great as going from a 30" CRT to the H31 in the first place.

Kyle

Kyle ,

You are welcome good sir :) .

I agree that we all have different needs/wants and that has to be part of the purchase choice . Just remember to not base that choice on marketing alone ;) .

-- Jason

Classy post DaGame, as usual. :)
I agree with every single point. I am also in this for the IQ over anything else, so I will try as hard as possible to work around setup issues...if I could I would also like to try a 9" CRT but since I cant , I am more than happy with what I got.
Regards

Thanks Luis ;) .

-- Jason

I would take the old obsolete set if it were a high end 9" CRT RPTV , no doubt about it ;) .

-- Jason

That was not one of the choices.:)

That was not one of the choices.:)

Yeah I know , I was just poking fun at the newer must be better theory ;) .

Seriously though I would take a higher end 720p over an entry level 1080p with just about any consumer display out there . If the black level , contrast ratio , color accuracy , processing , etc. are better then all the resolution in world will not make up for it IMO . Now all those aspects being equal then of course I would pick the 1080p .

-- Jason

this is a great thread, it helped me make up my mind to go with 720p. Just ordered a refurbed vp12s4 for $1250. Lets see how that goes with the bluray.

gagaliya ,

NICE unit !!!

- Jason

this is a great thread, it helped me make up my mind to go with 720p. Just ordered a refurbed vp12s4 for $1250. Lets see how that goes with the bluray.
Excellent! :)

The 12S4 for 1250$ refurbed.:eek:

You have no idea how good this projector really is.:) The cost to replace the lens alone ( Konica-Minolta ) new is 3500$. Only High end Sharp and Marantz models come with this lens.

Great find.

At viewing distances greater than 1.5X screen width there is NO difference between 720p and 1080p models.

I had a 12K before my current 20000 sharp so I can be accurate on this observation.

A very wise choice. This unit was $2600 a week ago. I'm also tempted to try one but I'll wait for those 1080p's with 6x color wheel to come down in price.

The 11S2 I had the fortune to see had NO RBE at 6x wheel speed. At 5x it was minor and not an issue with enjoying the image.

The 11S2 with future price drops will be a hot commodity.

Lots of good info here.pimp could you' are someone make a small list of good 720p that can still be found at good prices.That might help some here find a great fp.I am still looking at the benq 5000.Looks to be really nice at a great price.THANKS BOB

Yeah I know , I was just poking fun at the newer must be better theory ;) .

Seriously though I would take a higher end 720p over an entry level 1080p with just about any consumer display out there . If the black level , contrast ratio , color accuracy , processing , etc. are better then all the resolution in world will not make up for it IMO . Now all those aspects being equal then of course I would pick the 1080p .

-- Jason

If I had a dedicated room rather than a family room I probably would have looked at high end 720P projectors, but due to my room constraints, I have to rear shelf mount and I have to have lens shift and a bright projector. I was not willing to spend that kind of money to get DLP capable of doing what I needed.

I built my room, but I only set up one end for HT and at the time I built my room I was not even thinking about a projector. It was originally a direct view HT with everything built in so that nothing showed and I was not concerned with light control. Due to the high ceilings and a window on my back wall that is centered with my screen I took a drop tube ceiling mount and converted it to a wall mount. When the projector is in use I raise the projector up so that it sits in front of the window. When not in use I lower it down so that it is right below the window. When the projector is lowered down it looks like it is sitting on a table in front of the window.

My future plans are to add another master suite onto the back of the house and convert the current master suite into a dedicated HT room. Then I will have total light control and will be able to use any type of projector that I want. :)

$1250 for a refurb Marantz S4 that is a steal! This is the exactly the type of high end 720 PJ I'd take over a Panny 2000, Epson 1080UB and probably even a JVC RS1 (some tradeoffs here). Its only disadvantage is it is not very bright so you need either a smaller screen (100" or less) or a gain screen. Great buy congratulations!

I work in the industry as a custom installer. Our company specializes in projectors and is the bulk of our work. I am the one that evaluates projectors to see if they are a product we wish to carry. I am also the one that will likely be installing and calibrating the projector. I get to play with a lot of projectors and my opinion is based off that experience.

Since, resolution is the discussion here let's talk about what you will see and what you won't with 720 vs. 1080 of similar machines. If you look at the ratio between them you will see it is 1.5x more resolution in either direction. Which means when you bring things down to the pixel level you aren't going to see a 1/2 pixel more and you aren't likely to miss any detail in the film. Since details are rarely only 1 pixel in dimension with the exception of test patterns you will see all the details in the source. This means if you are looking at a zit on someone's face you will see it on both 720 and 1080.

So how does 1080 help us? It helps give us more defined details. If I were to draw a circle and view it very close I would see that the 1080 circle would be smoother with more defined edges. In the real world it is often noticed in the background of a scene.

For example our company puts on a projector workshop to teach DIYers how to properly set up a projector. At one of them we had 3 projectors side by side on identical size screens, an IN72, 74 and 76. Everyone was surprised at how well the 480 machine stood up against the 720P. Was the 720P better, definitely!

We were playing a Red sox clip and the close ups of someone's face it was tough to tell the differences. It seemed they all had good detail but the differences were tougher to notice. But, when viewing a more panned out scene you could see the 'Dunkin Donuts' sign behind home plate was crisper, some might say sharper but I don't want to confuse with other aspects of sharpness.

As you move further from the screen the tougher it is to notice the differences as our eyesight becomes the limitation. Our eyesight has an even tougher time telling the differences with moving video. Let's face it baseball is not exactly a fast moving sport and it gives you plenty of time to look for differences. But, when the camera pans across the stadium it is tougher to notice those differences.

Now at this same shootout there was a Panny 900 as well as other projectors. The IN72 beat it in all aspects except resolution and noise level. Depending on your screen size and how far you sit from the screen the lower resolution might not be a factor because your eyes might not have the ability to resolve the differences.

It is however easy to notice differences in contrast, color, saturation, etc at any viewing distance you would find in a home. I prefer to have a projector that has great NATIVE on/off, ANSI, intra-scene contrast with accurate color and saturation. I like a picture that gives me that three dimensional appearance and pop to make me feel like I could just walk right in and be part of the film. This IMHO (and ISFs) make these more important picture qualities than resolution. Resolution is important just not the most important quality. I don't care if something is 1080 if it lacks that 3 dimensional pop that draws me into the picture. YMMV.

Sharpness of a picture is a different issue. When one says that a picture is sharp there are a number of things for which this can be attributed. The more defined edges of 1080 could be one of the reasons but there are other factors involved. I see comparisons of totally different projectors and one contributes the added sharpness to resolution alone. There are a lot of factors which can attribute to a projector having a sharper look and not all of them are desirable features.

One is the technology itself. LCDs tend have the sharpest picture because they have the biggest gap between the pixels. This makes each pixel more defined. This is not necessarily a good thing. It is why screen door effect is easier to notice on LCDs. If you compare technologies to film where the resolution is the grain of the film and there is no gap. DLP and LCOS have their pixels much closer together with LCOS having the least amount of gap between pixels. A lot of people refer to LCOS projectors as being ‘film like’ or smooth. LCDs are often describes as having a ‘digital’ look. I think it comes down to personal preference on which you prefer.

Note: Panny PJs and their smooth screen technology blurs the gaps between the pixels to give this smoother look and make screen door tougher to notice. The Pannys with smooth screen are the exception to LCDs.

Other aspects of sharpness have to do with moving images. Part of this can be the video processing and part can be the technology again. The capability of the video processing can greatly affect this quality. In this category DLP wins as it can flips its mirrors faster than LCD or LCOS can refresh their pixels. DLP will look sharper in these scenes.

There is also the sharpness control itself. Often this is set incorrectly. If you look at a test pattern and you see a black line with white edging around it (or vice versa) this is adding information that isn’t in the source to make it appear sharper. I think this effect can help if you are doing a power point presentation by making the text easier to see but it rarely helps with video. I find this pretty easy to notice in people’s faces as the outlining it gives looks very unnatural.

If you are sitting close enough that screen door is an issue than a higher resolution projector is needed! Beyond that the other qualities that make up a good picture need to be considered. There are usually tradeoffs with any equipment and one must decide which attributes are most important to them.

Hope this helps.

Bob

GOOD INFO BobL.What you describe as background resolution being better with 1080p is true.When I had the ae2000 1080p comparing it to my ax100 720.You could really tell the difference in background scene's.To me that is worth the price of admission.That has allways bothered me 'close up are sharp but background less sharp.Thanks for explaining it.I agree.BOB

Great info Bob, my question is what setting (IF any) would make for better backgrounds? I also love the 3D feel, more than anything really. I have ordered the Epson HC720, I maybe should have educated myself more but was too excited, I am new to all of this, as of now I have a 42" Westinghouse and am happy with that, so I think the PJ will give me that "WOW" effect.

I think if you are new to PJs you will have that "WOW" effect. Unless you compare PJs side by side or evaluate a lot of them you will be happy with the Epson. Stay ignorant it is cheaper:D As far as backgrounds there is nothing you can do to add resolution. You could turn up the sharpness setting to make background text more crisp unfortunately it would be a tradeoff with faces and other aspects of the picture and I wouldn't recommend it.

The biggest difference with 720 and 1080 of PJ with similar other qualities is seating distance compared to screen size. If you were to use my example of the 'Dunkin Donuts' advertisement above and have two almost identical PJs except resolution side by side and kept walking backward in the room. There would be a point you would have trouble noticing the difference as your eyes are now the limitation. Now if you put up a moving image, say repeating a panning shot you would have to walk closer to notice the differences.

A general rule of thumb is that your seating be 1.5x or greater the width of the picture for you not to be able to see the differences. There are all type of recommendations on this anywhere for 1.33 to 1.8 times the width. I think the 1.5x is a good guideline for moving images. On a static image with contrasting edges like a test pattern it would likely be further.

Buddahead's comments about the background are correct but one thing to keep in mind is his new projector is an upgrade in many other areas besides resolution alone making his price of admission an overall better value:) Also, once you are inlvolved in a movie or a program most people will stop looking at the background details and just enjoy the show! It's only us enthusuasts that will notice, friends and family will just go "WOW".

Hope this helps.

Bob

yes the Mitsubishi HC1500 has HDMI (1) and is 1600 ANSI lumens. it is a freaking light cannon and is MUCH brighter than my Benq W9000 and for the money i'd go with that. hands down.

Hope this helps.

Bob

So the the big question:

65" 1080p DLP RP @ 9ft vs 92" 720p (DLP) FP @ ~10.5ft? Difference noticable? :)

Or more to the point will I be disappointed if I replace my 50" 1080i CRT with 720p @ 92"?

One is the technology itself. LCDs tend have the sharpest picture because they have the biggest gap between the pixels. This makes each pixel more defined. This is not necessarily a good thing. It is why screen door effect is easier to notice on LCDs. If you compare technologies to film where the resolution is the grain of the film and there is no gap. DLP and LCOS have their pixels much closer together with LCOS having the least amount of gap between pixels. A lot of people refer to LCOS projectors as being ‘film like’ or smooth. LCDs are often describes as having a ‘digital’ look. I think it comes down to personal preference on which you prefer.

Note: Panny PJs and their smooth screen technology blurs the gaps between the pixels to give this smoother look and make screen door tougher to notice. The Pannys with smooth screen are the exception to LCDs.

Other aspects of sharpness have to do with moving images. Part of this can be the video processing and part can be the technology again. The capability of the video processing can greatly affect this quality. In this category DLP wins as it can flips its mirrors faster than LCD or LCOS can refresh their pixels. DLP will look sharper in these scenes.

If you are sitting close enough that screen door is an issue than a higher resolution projector is needed! Beyond that the other qualities that make up a good picture need to be considered. There are usually tradeoffs with any equipment and one must decide which attributes are most important to them.

Hope this helps.

Bob

Excellent info, Bob. You've basically touched on a specific detail I was just about to start a thread on.
(I hope that this is not too far off topic - if so, let me know and I'll start another thread.)

I am waiting patiently for my big 4-0 birthday this year. The item of my desire is a new projector to replace my RPTV. My dedicated room is smaller than most - with back row seating at 11ft, and occasional front row seating at about 7.5ft. I will be installing a 16:9 screen which will be no larger than 100" diagonal. The PJ will be mounted on a shelf slightly behind and above the central rear viewing position. (About 13ft throw distance).

I've basically narrowed it down to two: The Mitsubishi HC1500 and the Panasonic PT-AU2000.
Because of the close seating range, my preference is the Panasonic for mainly the reasons you state above -

more film-like quality
virtually no screen door effect


I've read the reviews and comparisons on both, and the HC1500 comes highly recommended as an excellent value PJ with the most 'bang for the buck'. So much so that I'm questioning whether to shell out the extra cash for the Panny.
But, based on what you've said here, I think you're confirming my gut feel to go with the Panasonic.
I will be sourcing most of my material from PS3 and a hi-res laptop PC via VGA or HDMI.
Therefore I want the 1080p source resolution reproduction and multiple inputs. Motorized zoom & lens shift are also important to me.

Do you have any further input on the subject?
Can you make any comments on the things we don't read in the reviews, such as project quality and longevity of the two models?

Thanks, you input has already been very helpful.
Red-3

Also, once you are inlvolved in a movie or a program most people will stop looking at the background details and just enjoy the show!

Everyone new to projectors, please read the above line again. Then, read it again. Then, read it again..and again.

Moving images are an entirely different thing than static images.

The truth is, after 5 minutes, you're enjoying the show...wether its 480p, 720p or 1080p. I've seen 1080p projected and 720p projected and there was no noticible difference in sharpness to my eyes.....we ultimately blamed the fact that this was a broadcast signal and the lenses used on the cameras simply weren't able to capture any "more" detail than they already were, or cable compression was crushing the added detail...hard to say really.

In the end, the only thing I ever found distracting with a PJ was when I had a 480p unit and I saw pixel structure.

That disappeared with 720p and doesn't really exist at 1080p.

HDTV,

65"/50" vs. 92" is no question. The immersion you get from the bigger size makes it worth the price of admission. I'm biased towards front projection for this reason it just offers a more immersive experience, smaller sizes I'm just watching TV;) The better question is what is your viewing conditions? The biggest obstacle with projectors is ambient light. If light can be controlled front projection is the best choice.

Red-3,

With your viewing conditions I'd definitely go 1080. My recommendations for highend 720 over 1080 is based off of seating distance and a higher end 720 PJ. Your first row seating is too close for 720P and the HC1500 I wouldn't consider high end. Its only advantage over the Panny might be ANSI contrast and brightness.

Also, why the need for the lens shift and power zoom? I consider these almost useless features unless you plan on moving to different locations with the PJ. They are generally a one time use feature and once your PJ is set you don't use them again. I know some people use them for different aspect ratios but I find that a pain unless automated on a universal remote.

Happy 40th! I passed that mark a little while ago. I put in a Triad (Bronze/Silver) system for that milestone:D

Bob

Oh yeah sure , now that Bob comes in and says what I have been saying everybody believes it ... nice :p .


j/k - lol ;)

Seriously , I hope that those people that do not take my word for it will at least listen to a Pro that does it for living ( Thanks for the great post Bob :D ) .

-- Jason

Next time we can save some time Jason and just call Bob! :D

Enough with the hug-fest. :D

I don't agree with the statement that lens shift is useless. Plenty of people find it useful in their HT environment. (A one time set up feature doesn't make it useless. It's like saying that a ceiling mount is useless because you only set it up once.) I do agree that a power zoom is more of a gimmick than a useful feature.

Red-3,
With your viewing conditions I'd definitely go 1080. My recommendations for highend 720 over 1080 is based off of seating distance and a higher end 720 PJ. Your first row seating is too close for 720P and the HC1500 I wouldn't consider high end. Its only advantage over the Panny might be ANSI contrast and brightness.

720p never was an option for me. If Blu-Ray is 1080p at source, why reduce it. Regardless of whether I can see the difference, I want to view exactly what's coming off the disc.
Plus, as a regular PC user, the more resolution the better.
BTW, I think the Panny has better contrast/blacks than the HC1500. The HC1500 wins on brightness (which I don't think is an issue in my small light-controlled HT room.)


Also, why the need for the lens shift and power zoom? I consider these almost useless features unless you plan on moving to different locations with the PJ. They are generally a one time use feature and once your PJ is set you don't use them again. I know some people use them for different aspect ratios but I find that a pain unless automated on a universal remote.


1) My PJ will be a business expense, and I will sometimes (i.e. rarely) use it 'offsite' for presentations and such. (The argument for buying a 720p now which could be used for presentations and then buying a 1080p when they come down in price did not stick when presented to my wife! :( )
2) I think that sometimes upscaled SD & web-based media will look bad (accentuating artifacts, etc.) when blown up on my large 100" screen, and I will want to make the image smaller (60"-80"), especially when I have people watching on the front row. Remote zoom will do that nicely.


Happy 40th! I passed that mark a little while ago. I put in a Triad (Bronze/Silver) system for that milestone:D

Bob
Congrats! Still a little way off for me - I'll be looking for the best Black Friday deal come Fall. Hoping that the 1080p Panny will be sub 2K by then. Perhaps there'll be an even better option by that time?

Enough with the hug-fest. :D

I don't agree with the statement that lens shift is useless. Plenty of people find it useful in their HT environment. (A one time set up feature doesn't make it useless. It's like saying that a ceiling mount is useless because you only set it up once.) I do agree that a power zoom is more of a gimmick than a useful feature.


Yea that is a stupid statement.Sounds like something I would say after a few Beers.I could not own a fp without vertical len shift,.Reason is that I shift my image when it is a 2.35 image down to bottom of screen them I have a mask that covers the top bar.Poors man 2..35 screen.People come in swear it is a 2.35 screen.Looks killer.Then I show them the trick and they go WOW.The ax200 shift has no effect on the pic the way I used it.Dagamepimp we know your the man.I have allways respected your advice even though sometimes I disagree.Would love to see your sharp setup.:)

While I wouldnt call it useless nor I would call that a stupid statement.... I think I follow his line of thought.
Its one of those features like keystone adjustment that I never use because there is always a penalty in IQ. Of course if I had no choice then so be it, but just like using your projector at full zoom to get the biggest image size degrades the IQ (of course whether you can see it or not is of course important) I always try to find a location where no compromises or special corrections are required.
None of these technologies are perfect so minimizing other factors that can affect IQ is a must in my case.
Of course, as you can see based on all the feedback here, what is useless to one person is sometimes the key feature for another one.

Regards

GOOD INFO BobL.What you describe as background resolution being better with 1080p is true.When I had the ae2000 1080p comparing it to my ax100 720.You could really tell the difference in background scene's.To me that is worth the price of admission.That has allways bothered me 'close up are sharp but background less sharp.Thanks for explaining it.I agree.BOB


You also have to understand that when some scenes are shot the background focus all depends on the F-stop of the film camera. With the lens closed down the background will be sharper versus having the lens wide open.

Basically, not all scenes are meant to have in-focus backgrounds.

Enough with the hug-fest. :D

I don't agree with the statement that lens shift is useless. Plenty of people find it useful in their HT environment. (A one time set up feature doesn't make it useless. It's like saying that a ceiling mount is useless because you only set it up once.) I do agree that a power zoom is more of a gimmick than a useful feature.

If you have a normal dedicated room then lens shift is probably useless, but there are many of use that do not have dedicated rooms. Also some people have dedicated rooms in their basements and they have low ceilings and/or duct work that cuts across the path of the projector. For people like us lens shift is very valuable. :)

I did state that some people use lens shift/zoom for aspect ratio. I know my family wouldn't tolerate it unless they could hit one button on the remote and everything was automated. For an enthusiast its fine to do but most people probably wouldn't mess with it.

My point being with lens shift is that for most of us it is used once and that's it. I wouldn't make it a necessary feature of a projector unless I planned on using it in various conditions like as stated for presentations or other uses.

A projector either fits a given installation or it doesn't! Some projectors with lens shift do not fit certain application like the Sharp projectors. They have lens shift but need to be mounted within the screen's height. If your projector is going to be ceiling mounted above the top of the screen a Sharp wouldn't work but a fixed offset projector might.

Certainly, projectors with lens shift will fit more installations than ones without it. Would you buy a model with lens shift even if it is going to be used at its extreme position causing chromatic aberration and geometric distortions when a fixed offset would fit perfectly without these artifacts?

Ease of setup being a one time thing I do not consider it a 'MUST HAVE' feature. YMMV. If you have a mount that has up/down (not just tilt) adjustability it makes set up a breeze anyway. Get a decent mount and pick your PJ based on its other attributes. I remember years ago installing PJs that not only had a fixed offset but also had no zoom. An adjustable mount was necessary. Even with Lens shift I still use the adjustable mounts so I can put the lens as close to its optimal position when possible.

If you do not plan to adjust your projector for each movie or program you watch for the correct aspect ratio then you should start your search for a PJ that will fit your situation for throw and offset irregardless of lens shift or not. This will narrow your choices and you can decide what other attributes are most important to you.

Hope this helps.

Bob

Here is my current example of compromise for the sake of IQ ;) ...

I am dealing with the complicated install of the Sharp 12K mkII due to the stunning image that it produces and the only way around it in my difficult room ( odd shape and vaulted ceiling ) is to either use a drop pole or a high rack (I have opted to try the drop pole route first , mount should be here tomorrow) . For now it sits aimed directly at the middle of my HP screen (on a stand about 48" tall) and it is still very bright even in high contrast mode . I will be giving up much of that brightness when ceiling mounting because the Sharp will be closer to the top of the screen vs. right above my head when seated and so the HiPower screen will bounce the light right back up towards the PJ ( but at least it will not be throwing it right back on the white ceiling like it does with the HC3000 that sits about 5 inches from the ceiling due to its offset ;) ) . Also the top of my screen is only 74" off the ground so anybody over 6'2" had better duck ;) . I am honestly dreading having the PJ hang that low but there is no way around it and it's a testament to just how good of an image this PJ throws (my HC3000 install is very clean and totally out of the way) .

-- Jason

this is a great thread, it helped me make up my mind to go with 720p. Just ordered a refurbed vp12s4 for $1250. Lets see how that goes with the bluray.

Hey thanks for the heads up. I just got in on the same deal. Who would have thought a Marantz 12S4 for that kind of money. I have a Dalite Hi Power screen and will be closing the iris down and enjoying this projector in its highest performance mode. Thanks Again.

Moe

Enough with the hug-fest. :D

I don't agree with the statement that lens shift is useless. Plenty of people find it useful in their HT environment. (A one time set up feature doesn't make it useless. It's like saying that a ceiling mount is useless because you only set it up once.) I do agree that a power zoom is more of a gimmick than a useful feature.

This is all dependent on your preference. There are a number of CIH folks using the zoom method that would strongly disagree with you - same with motorized lens shift FWIW.

This is almost like the old debate of video cards when i was younger, and how one is 3 fps faster than the other and is therefore superior. As you get older you realize it really doesnt matter that much. Same applies here, as you start watching the movie, would these little differences actually matter? I mean it's cool to have a technical discussion, but in actual usage would anyone really care.

Hey thanks for the heads up. I just got in on the same deal. Who would have thought a Marantz 12S4 for that kind of money. I have a Dalite Hi Power screen and will be closing the iris down and enjoying this projector in its highest performance mode. Thanks Again.

Moe

good to hear! i almost bought a new hc1500 for $800, then like magic i saw this thread and the raving reviews for the s4 and RIGHT AFTER there was an ad for another unrelated projector i just happen to click on and saw the 12s4on sale.

Pretty nervous about buying another projector after the fiasco with the toshiba tdp-mt700 (5 bulbs in less than 1 year, brand new too!). Hopfully marantaz is good quality and refurb their products well. :o

Does anyone know if there is a setting sheet published somewhere for the 12s4? i dont really have a clue how to calibrate it.

This is almost like the old debate of video cards when i was younger, and how one is 3 fps faster than the other and is therefore superior. As you get older you realize it really doesnt matter that much. Same applies here, as you start watching the movie, would these little differences actually matter? I mean it's cool to have a technical discussion, but in actual usage would anyone really care.



good to hear! i almost bought a new hc1500 for $800, then like magic i saw this thread and the raving reviews for the s4 and RIGHT AFTER there was an ad for another unrelated projector i just happen to click on and saw the 12s4on sale.

Pretty nervous about buying another projector after the fiasco with the toshiba tdp-mt700 (5 bulbs in less than 1 year, brand new too!). Hopfully marantaz is good quality and refurb their products well. :o

Does anyone know if there is a setting sheet published somewhere for the 12s4? i dont really have a clue how to calibrate it.

Ordered mine on Sunday, should be here on Friday, good to see others found this deal.:D

ok I just took the plunge and ordered the 12s4 as well. This is my first projector. I broke the cardinal rule of buying a projector before the theatre is done haha.

Good thing I didnt see this before buying my 7210 or I should have been debating which one to buy forever! :D
Still I love Infocus OOTB calibration and accuracy so I should have probably made the same decision.
Great buy guys.

ok I just took the plunge and ordered the 12s4 as well. This is my first projector. I broke the cardinal rule of buying a projector before the theatre is done haha.

ditto. Hope the projector is all that people say it is!!! :)

Does anybody know if MACK Warranties apply for refurbished units like the one I just bought (Marantz VP12S4S (Black) DLP Short Throw Projectors - Refurbished)?

If not, perhaps I should buy the extra bulb warranty offered by the vendor for this unit. The price seems high though ($200 for 3 years [up to two bulbs]). What do any of you think?

Thanks, and I have to agree with others that posted....I am a newb at HD projection stuff, but this forum has been VERY helpful! (and a shout-out to my local audio/video guru, Big D!) Thanks guys.

The 12s4 is an awesome unit , one of the best single chip 720p DLP's ever built . Had I not come across something slightly better I would be jumping all over that deal right now myself .

I would say that a $200 extended warranty that includes 2 lamps is very worthwhile since the lamps for the 12s4 are rather spendy (usually from $500 to $600) . I do not think the Mack warranty covers refurbs but it can't hurt to call them up and find out ;) .

-- Jason

Thanks for the advice DGP, I will look into the warranty stuff.

I am planning on buying this screen: CARADA 92 Inch Diagonal Criterion Series Projection Screen - 1.78 to 1 with the Brilliant White screen material add-on.

What are your thoughts on that screen? My local audio/video bro set me up with that suggestion also, as he has that exact screen, and loves it.

Nice screen , modest gain at 1.4 and no hot spotting . Not the best for ambient light but if you have light control it's a good screen for a great price .

It offers about the same gain as you would get from a Da Lite HiPower when the projector is ceiling mounted .

-- Jason

Nice screen , modest gain at 1.4 and no hot spotting . Not the best for ambient light but if you have light control it's a good screen for a great price .

It offers about the same gain as you would get from a Da Lite HiPower when the projector is ceiling mounted .

-- Jason

Yup, I can make the room virtually totally black if needed, and the room has no dimensional or obstruction limitations that I can anticipate. I plan on mounting the projector on my ceiling also. What do you mean by "gain"? Sorry for the newb questions, but I am excited as hell about getting this baby set up (not as excited as the wife is going to be when she sees the credit card bill!! LOL)

Any other tips or pointers about setup, add-ons, etc.? Thanks again!

Screen Gain makes the image brighter than it would be otherwise (For Example : a 1.0 gain screen adds no brightness , or at least it shouldn't , from what the projector is able to produce ) . So higher gain screens allow projectors to seem brighter than they actually are ( there are other variables but that is about as basic as it gets ;) ) . Usually the higher gain will give more POP but it can also decrease image quality in other ways ( but that is for another area of the forum ;) ) .

If this is your first projector then prepare to be blown away , what a way to start off :D !

* Tip for all of you buying the 12s4 is to check which version of the lens you are getting ( long throw , short throw , standard ) ... You'll want to know that for the placement .

-- Jason

Where you guys finding the marantz 12s4 for sale.PM me.Thanks BOB

Here is my current example of compromise for the sake of IQ ;) ...

I am dealing with the complicated install of the Sharp 12K mkII due to the stunning image that it produces and the only way around it in my difficult room ( odd shape and vaulted ceiling ) is to either use a drop pole or a high rack (I have opted to try the drop pole route first , mount should be here tomorrow) . For now it sits aimed directly at the middle of my HP screen (on a stand about 48" tall) and it is still very bright even in high contrast mode . I will be giving up much of that brightness when ceiling mounting because the Sharp will be closer to the top of the screen vs. right above my head when seated and so the HiPower screen will bounce the light right back up towards the PJ ( but at least it will not be throwing it right back on the white ceiling like it does with the HC3000 that sits about 5 inches from the ceiling due to its offset ;) ) . Also the top of my screen is only 74" off the ground so anybody over 6'2" had better duck ;) . I am honestly dreading having the PJ hang that low but there is no way around it and it's a testament to just how good of an image this PJ throws (my HC3000 install is very clean and totally out of the way) .

-- Jason

Since your projector has lens shift, I am surprised that you are not mounting your projector lower to make better use of your HP screen.

ditto. Hope the projector is all that people say it is!!! :)

Does anybody know if MACK Warranties apply for refurbished units like the one I just bought (Marantz VP12S4S (Black) DLP Short Throw Projectors - Refurbished)?

If not, perhaps I should buy the extra bulb warranty offered by the vendor for this unit. The price seems high though ($200 for 3 years [up to two bulbs]). What do any of you think?

Thanks, and I have to agree with others that posted....I am a newb at HD projection stuff, but this forum has been VERY helpful! (and a shout-out to my local audio/video guru, Big D!) Thanks guys.


This question has been asked many times .
From what I have been told by Mack is .

AS long as the refurbished unit comes with some sort Of warrantee on the bulb when purchased the extended warranty will be fine.
As always make sure you hear from the horses mouth so give them a call 1-800-252-MACK (6225).
Remember to register your Mack warranty promptly and copy and save your invoice or receipt in a safe place.

Mack warrantyWarranty Pin # 1065
http://www.newworldvideodirect.com/productdetail.asp?productid=1035.

hope this helps

.

Cheers

Murph:)

This question has been asked many times .
From what I have been told by Mack is .

AS long as the refurbished unit comes with some sort Of warrantee on the bulb when purchased the extended warranty will be fine.
As always make sure you hear from the horses mouth so give them a call 1-800-252-MACK (6225).
Remember to register your Mack warranty promptly and copy and save your invoice or receipt in a save place.

Mack warrantyWarranty Pin # 1065
http://www.newworldvideodirect.com/productdetail.asp?productid=1035.

hope this helps

.

Cheers

Murph:)

Thanks murph big help. I also purchased the S4 yesturday and should be receiving it on tuesday. Can't wait to compare it to my RS1. I'll be giving Mack a call today.

Thanks again

Alex

Thanks for the advice DGP, I will look into the warranty stuff.

I am planning on buying this screen: CARADA 92 Inch Diagonal Criterion Series Projection Screen - 1.78 to 1 with the Brilliant White screen material add-on.

What are your thoughts on that screen? My local audio/video bro set me up with that suggestion also, as he has that exact screen, and loves it.

Hi,

1) The carada fixed frame is top notch screen without the heavy price tag, i had the exact screen in my old home theater before i sold the place. Excellent value for the money. You will be very happy.

2) Becareful buying the bulb warranties, from my research even if it covers refurbed it is very painful to get a replacement(especially bulb warranty, projector defect warranty seems to be better), requiring many calls and negotiations. And read the fine print carefully after you get it, some doesnt cover stuff like blowup etc... (basically the main causes of a bulb going bad).

For me it's too much headache and the trouble to actually get a bulb out of them is jsut not worth it. Since this is a top of the line projector i will assume the quality is good and premature bulb failure will be less. So will just save the warranty money towards a new bulb.

This is all dependent on your preference. There are a number of CIH folks using the zoom method that would strongly disagree with you - same with motorized lens shift FWIW.

I did not say it is useful in every situation. Not everyone here is a videophile that will go all out to get the best IQ they think they're getting. Plenty of people here just want to enjoy the big screen HT experience with minimum inconvenience. Their needs and opinions count, too. At least they try. Otherwise most of us will still be watching smallish flat panel TVs.

There is no question that a 12s4, mk2, 7210 is a great buy at close to $1k, if you get one close to 100%. However, don't forget about reports of issues from the vp4001 and 7210 batches. Sometimes there is a reason why these high end pjs are sold at greatly discounted prices. But if you scored a good one, congratulation.

The 12s4 is an awesome unit , one of the best single chip 720p DLP's ever built . Had I not come across something slightly better I would be jumping all over that deal right now myself .

-- Jason

What makes the Sharp 12000 mkII better than the Marantz 12s4? I thought the Marantz was at the top of the heap in when it came to single chip 720p units. Also, are you still using a 120" high power with the Sharp? If so, how is it in regards to brightness. thanks

I did not say it is useful in every situation. Not everyone here is a videophile that will go all out to get the best IQ they think they're getting. Plenty of people here just want to enjoy the big screen HT experience with minimum inconvenience. Their needs and opinions count, too. At least they try. Otherwise most of us will still be watching smallish flat panel TVs.

There is no question that a 12s4, mk2, 7210 is a great buy at close to $1k, if you get one close to 100%. However, don't forget about reports of issues from the vp4001 and 7210 batches. Sometimes there is a reason why these high end pjs are sold at greatly discounted prices. But if you scored a good one, congratulation.


Good points their rickster.I checked into the 12s4.The price is hard to beleive for what they sold at a few years back.It even has HDM1.Only thing stopping me from ordering one is that it weigh's so Dam much and is quite noisy.Plus being a reburbished.For a grand though might be worth the gamble.I guess it would out perform my ax200.;)BOB

I just read that those reburbished units have old bulbs in them.That would pretty much kill the deal for me.BOB

I guess it would out perform my ax200.;)BOB

Keep in mind that these high-end projectors are very dim compare with your ax200. They are also relatively loud in comparison with the Panasonic's.
You will probably need to replace your current screen. I had to reduce picture size from 118" to about 96" when I used my Sharp projector (the VP12s4 is only slightly brighter in high contrast mode) on my Carada BW screen. My Yamaha projector is a bit brighter but nowhere near as bright as my Sony which is much dimmer than your ax200.

HDTV,

65"/50" vs. 92" is no question. The immersion you get from the bigger size makes it worth the price of admission. I'm biased towards front projection for this reason it just offers a more immersive experience, smaller sizes I'm just watching TV;) The better question is what is your viewing conditions? The biggest obstacle with projectors is ambient light. If light can be controlled front projection is the best choice.

Well ... it looks like the display upgrades will have to wait. Ratatouille (BD) killed the woofer on one of my "ancient" (20yr old) JBL L100t's last night .... cursed foam surrounds! So it looks like it's time for a proper sub (and matching speakers.)

It was only running at -15dB from reference ... be forewarned. :(

During what scene did it happen?

During what scene did it happen?

I think it was the lightning strike (cooking over the chimney) that did the initial damage. By the escape though the sewer, it was clear that something went horribly wrong. But to be fair, those foam surrounds have been iffy for awhile now.

I just read that those reburbished units have old bulbs in them.That would pretty much kill the deal for me.BOB

I believe Marantz guarantees less than 10 hours on the bulbs when they are refurbished.....

I did not say it is useful in every situation. Not everyone here is a videophile that will go all out to get the best IQ they think they're getting. Plenty of people here just want to enjoy the big screen HT experience with minimum inconvenience. Their needs and opinions count, too. At least they try. Otherwise most of us will still be watching smallish flat panel TVs.


I don't disagree with that comment at all, nor did I imply that in the post you quoted; however, I was responding to your comment:


"I do agree that a power zoom is more of a gimmick than a useful feature."


This is clearly not true for the CIH user. Don't "their needs and opinions count" also or do the need and opinions of folks only count for the group of which you are a part?

Incidentally, power zoom is also a very nice feature to have to achieve perfect focus since you can stand at the screen and adjust the focus at the pixel level. This is much easier than trying to stand at the projector and juggle a pair of binoculars while simultaneously adjusting focus. This also takes out the double issue of having to ensure your binoculars are perfectly focused as well. True, not everyone will care about perfect focus, but many will and this becomes a useful feature.

When i talked to the sales rep and asked him this specific question, he said the refurbed units will have lamp that are between 10-20% used (~300 hours) at max.

Seems fine to me, a new bulb is $500 msrp, adding that it comes out to be $1700, it's still not too bad. Just a month or 2 back, there were threads here saying how good a deal the vp12s4 was at $2k.

I'm guessing at least some here pushing the old machines are sitting on (i.e., are stuck with) a stash of them and, of course, want to maximise their 'value'.

If there is no one making NEW CURRENT STOCK bulbs/lamps for them, watch out! High-pressure arc lamps don't improve with age and storage. Quite the opposite! Seals leak! Especially if they've been stored in less-than-ideal conditions. If the exact bulb/lamp type is NLA as NEW, FRESH STOCK I'd be very cautious buying most of this stuff, especially 'recons' with completely unknown histories.

'Build quality' is nice. Great, in fact. Higher-quality lenses, a little higher-quality switches and other electronic components (tho most are still mid-commercial grade), great case fit and finish, general superficial aesthetics, etc. won't mean a thing if one can't get reliable bulbs/lamps and other components for the machine.

Just how much one is willing to pay for that formerly-golden pig in the real and present poke is an individual decision, of course.

JMHO. :)

Hi,

1) The carada fixed frame is top notch screen without the heavy price tag, i had the exact screen in my old home theater before i sold the place. Excellent value for the money. You will be very happy.

2) Becareful buying the bulb warranties, from my research even if it covers refurbed it is very painful to get a replacement(especially bulb warranty, projector defect warranty seems to be better), requiring many calls and negotiations. And read the fine print carefully after you get it, some doesnt cover stuff like blowup etc... (basically the main causes of a bulb going bad).For me it's too much headache and the trouble to actually get a bulb out of them is jsut not worth it. Since this is a top of the line projector i will assume the quality is good and premature bulb failure will be less. So will just save the warranty money towards a new bulb.

on your point #2; do you mean warranties from where I bought the projector or warranties through MACK? Thanks for the input.

Since your projector has lens shift, I am surprised that you are not mounting your projector lower to make better use of your HP screen.

I am mounting it within the screen area (since it has to be) but obviously I would prefer to not have a rack/stand sitting right behind my seating . Plus due to my son attempting to look into the lens at times I need to keep the 12K as high as possible ;) .

Have to compromise so the drop pole equal to the top of the screen makes the most sense .

-- Jason

What makes the Sharp 12000 mkII better than the Marantz 12s4? I thought the Marantz was at the top of the heap in when it came to single chip 720p units. Also, are you still using a 120" high power with the Sharp? If so, how is it in regards to brightness. thanks


The 12K mkII has slightly higher native CR and slightly higher ANSI , they are really close performance wise however and even share the same basic lens (Konica-Minolta) . There are things the 12s4 does a little better and things the 12K mkII does a little better ... trade-offs ;) . I would be just as happy with the 12s4 as I am with the 12K mkII and it would be a little easier install in my room if I could get one with a short throw lens (but I think that is probably not what these refurbs are coming with since the long throw and short throw lenses were an option at an additional cost) .

-- Jason

Short (black casing) and medium throw are available at the same price. There is no coupon for $50 off either, and even if you tried, 2nd1119 won't work which is too bad. ;)

Are there any reviews comparing the 12K MKII and the VP12S4 directly?

The 12K mkII has slightly higher native CR and slightly higher ANSI , they are really close performance wise however and even share the same basic lens (Konica-Minolta) . There are things the 12s4 does a little better and things the 12K mkII does a little better ... trade-offs ;) . I would be just as happy with the 12s4 as I am with the 12K mkII and it would be a little easier install in my room if I could get one with a short throw lens (but I think that is probably not what these refurbs are coming with since the long throw and short throw lenses were an option at an additional cost) .

-- Jason

the 12s4 refurb I bought has the short throw lense.

Awesome , the option to get short or medium should mean this unit will work for just about anybody ... NICE !


* Oh and the Sharp 12k mkII has C.M.S. as well (Color Management System) .

-- Jason

I don't disagree with that comment at all, nor did I imply that in the post you quoted; however, I was responding to your comment:



This is clearly not true for the CIH user. Don't "their needs and opinions count" also or do the need and opinions of folks only count for the group of which you are a part?

Incidentally, power zoom is also a very nice feature to have to achieve perfect focus since you can stand at the screen and adjust the focus at the pixel level. This is much easier than trying to stand at the projector and juggle a pair of binoculars while simultaneously adjusting focus. This also takes out the double issue of having to ensure your binoculars are perfectly focused as well. True, not everyone will care about perfect focus, but many will and this becomes a useful feature.

My mistake. I thought you were commenting on lens shift.

Anyone know if the Marantz 12S4 can be mounted within the screen area or does it have to be above or below? I figured since it has vertical lens shift that the neutral point would be the middle of the screen like most projectors with vertical shift but after looking at the manual I'm not so sure.

Moe

This question has been asked many times .
From what I have been told by Mack is .

AS long as the refurbished unit comes with some sort Of warrantee on the projector when purchased the extended warranty will be fine.
As always make sure you hear from the horses mouth so give them a call 1-800-252-MACK (6225).
Remember to register your Mack warranty promptly and copy and save your invoice or receipt in a safe place.

Mack warrantyWarranty Pin # 1065
http://www.newworldvideodirect.com/productdetail.asp?productid=1035.

hope this helps

.

Cheers

Murph:)

I spoke with Mack and the dealer of the Mack warrranty today, and yes, Murph has it exactly correct: they do cover refurbished projectors/bulbs AS long as the refurbished unit comes with some sort Of warrantee on the bulb when purchased the extended warranty will be fine. My Marantz VP12S4S does come with a parts and labor 1 year warranty.......so I'm golden.

also, check this site out http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/mack_warranty_projector_combo.html

they offer a bulb (3 year/ 2 bulb max)AND projector warranty (4 additional years!!) for $260! I spoke with the owner minutes ago, and my projector is covered under this warranty. So for $260 bucks, I would have my projector under warranty for 5 years and the bulb for 3. Can't beat a deal like that IMO.

Guys

I watch a lot of HDTV hooked up to Comast HD cable box. I'm not yet a gamer and huge DVD user but might start. My question is will I see a much improved picture watching HDTV on a 106" screen from 11' on a 1080 projector vs a 720 projector in a dark room. This is the only thing holding up my decision on whether to buy something like the HC1500 now or maybe wait just a bit longer for a good deal on a 1080 unit. Thanks!

I find screen door on 1280x720 digital projectors unacceptable at that sort of viewing distance.

The Marantz can be mounted within the screen area or above it if ceiling mounted or below if table mounted.

I spoke with Mack and the dealer of the Mack warrranty today, and yes, Murph has it exactly correct: they do cover refurbished projectors/bulbs AS long as the refurbished unit comes with some sort Of warrantee on the bulb when purchased the extended warranty will be fine. My Marantz VP12S4S does come with a parts and labor 1 year warranty.......so I'm golden.

also, check this site out http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/mack_warranty_projector_combo.html

they offer a bulb (3 year/ 2 bulb max)AND projector warranty (4 additional years!!) for $260! I spoke with the owner minutes ago, and my projector is covered under this warranty. So for $260 bucks, I would have my projector under warranty for 5 years and the bulb for 3. Can't beat a deal like that IMO.

Look closely at the coverage period. Some of those warranties start on the day of purchase, not after the manufactures warranty.

Anyone know if the Marantz 12S4 can be mounted within the screen area or does it have to be above or below? I figured since it has vertical lens shift that the neutral point would be the middle of the screen like most projectors with vertical shift but after looking at the manual I'm not so sure.

Moe

Moe ,

The 12s4 has tons of placement flexibility (as BobL stated) , it's more like an LCD in that regard and less like a DLP (very rare flexibility in a DLP actually) . It is my understanding however that even with the high grade optics on the 12s4 there can be image intrusions when using extreme shifts (much like an LCD) .

-- Jason

Look closely at the coverage period. Some of those warranties start on the day of purchase, not after the manufactures warranty.

The warranty that I put up the link for starts after the manufacturers warranty ends (in this case, 1 yr).

The warranty that I put up the link for starts after the manufacturers warranty ends (in this case, 1 yr).

I was just making a general statement. I did not check the warranty that you linked to. I have seen some places that offered a five year warranty, but it started the day that you purchased your TV/projector.:)

BobL – as an IN76 owner who is tempted by the prices for the 12S4, I’d be very interested in your thoughts regarding its ability to drive a 112” diagonal screen (light controlled room, dark surfaces). My sense is that it just doesn’t have the horsepower for that size screen, at least with the iris clamped down and in best mode. If it were to be used with the iris wide open and on high lamp, do you have an opinion to how it would compare to the IN76 in terms of contrast and brightness?

Also – do you know if the S4 has the built-in vertical stretch modes (HDMI input, all resolutions) needed to accommodate an anamorphic lens?

Thx for whatever feedback you can give, and if anyone else has any info regarding the above, I'd be very interested in hearing from you as well.

2) Becareful buying the bulb warranties, from my research even if it covers refurbed it is very painful to get a replacement(especially bulb warranty, projector defect warranty seems to be better), requiring many calls and negotiations. And read the fine print carefully after you get it, some doesnt cover stuff like blowup etc... (basically the main causes of a bulb going bad).




based on your above concern, I asked specifically the dealer of this MACK warranty...... http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/mack_warranty_projector_combo.html
....under which situations the bulb is replaced. For this bulb warranty they are: 1. bulb blowup 2. if the bulb has eclipsed the usuable life (say 2000 hours for example) you can get a replacement, or 3. if the bulb "dims"

Under this MACK warranty, in all three of these cases, the bulb replacement cost will be reimbursed to you within 14-21 days.

I personally think that 1 year warranty on a 4 year old technology projector is more than enough. I can't see anyone holding on to a 9 year old projector when the warranty expires. I would save this money toward 25% down payment on super 1080p projector deal two year from now IMHO.

I personally think that 1 year warranty on a 4 year old technology projector is more than enough. I can't see anyone holding on to a 9 year old projector when the warranty expires. I would save this money toward 25% down payment on super 1080p projector deal two year from now IMHO.

yeah, I see your point also. I am undecided yet on the warranty. perhaps I should just go with this one which is considerably cheaper but is only for the bulb....

http://www.newworldvideodirect.com/productdetail.asp?productid=1035

however, I am a tad leary of the projector being refurbished and so maybe the $260 is worth spending to have the entire projector, bulb and all, under warranty for 5 years.

anybody else wanna share their thoughts? Thanks.

Moe ,

The 12s4 has tons of placement flexibility (as BobL stated) , it's more like an LCD in that regard and less like a DLP (very rare flexibility in a DLP actually) . It is my understanding however that even with the high grade optics on the 12s4 there can be image intrusions when using extreme shifts (much like an LCD) .

-- Jason

Great, I'm curious though what is the neutral position of the lens if the projector is mounted upright on a shelf right above my head? Is it the middle of the screen with shift in either direction or is it even with the bottom of the screen with shift upward? Just curious if i would be using a lot of lens shift in this position or just a tiny bit.

Moe

Moe ,

I have never owned the 12s4 but from what I recall having seen one there would be very little to no lens shift used when placed in the middle of the screen (I think that is the neutral position for the lens but I could be wrong) , maybe BobL can clarify since he has probably calibrated/installed these before ;) .

-- Jason

yeah, I see your point also. I am undecided yet on the warranty. perhaps I should just go with this one which is considerably cheaper but is only for the bulb....

http://www.newworldvideodirect.com/productdetail.asp?productid=1035

however, I am a tad leary of the projector being refurbished and so maybe the $260 is worth spending to have the entire projector, bulb and all, under warranty for 5 years.

anybody else wanna share their thoughts? Thanks.

Well my 12k mkII is not a refurb and it came with a new lamp but I am strongly considering the $260 MACK warranty due to lamp costs alone . This gives you more freedom to use the PJ as much as you would like and not worry about lamp hours . The full warranty is about half the cost of a single lamp on the 12s4 and about $100-$150 less than a lamp for the 12K so I feel like it is a good deal ;) . Now if you are only planning to keep this PJ until the good 1080p deals start popping up then maybe it's not as important . YMMV as always but I have learned the hard way that it never hurts to have that peace of mind ( I have a $1200 doorstop HDTV that went out 6 months after the warranty expired and I had the chance to buy an additional 2 years for about $100 and I passed :( ) .

--- Jason

okay guys where are you finding the Marantz for that price? Can someone PM me please? Thanks.

Well my 12k mkII is not a refurb and it came with a new lamp but I am strongly considering the $260 MACK warranty due to lamp costs alone . This gives you more freedom to use the PJ as much as you would like and not worry about lamp hours . The full warranty is about half the cost of a single lamp on the 12s4 and about $100-$150 less than a lamp for the 12K so I feel like it is a good deal ;) . Now if you are only planning to keep this PJ until the good 1080p deals start popping up then maybe it's not as important . YMMV as always but I have learned the hard way that it never hurts to have that peace of mind ( I have a $1200 doorstop HDTV that went out 6 months after the warranty expired and I had the chance to buy an additional 2 years for about $100 and I passed :( ) .

--- Jason

Yeah, what the hell, I'm going to buy the MACK warranty right now, then I won't have to worry about lamp hours and such and I do plan on keeping this PJ for awhile (the wife may never allow me to buy another PJ for some time, LOL).
DGP: can you give me some suggestions on hdmi cords and a splitter (I need the spitter since I have the HD cable box and a PS3 hdmi out with only one hdmi in on my PJ I believe). I also am looking at the following ceiling mount, as I have been told its the type that is well worth the extra money to have the gear adjustable ease. Here are the links of my preliminary searches....

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011001&p_id=2786&seq=1&format=2#description

http://www.beachaudio.com/Peerless/Prs-Unv-p-21962.html

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024008&p_id=3992&seq=1&format=2

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024001&p_id=3989&seq=1&format=2

Also, do you think I need a drop-down tube to lessen any angle to the screen?

Any thoughts again would be greatly appreciated.

BobL – as an IN76 owner who is tempted by the prices for the 12S4, I’d be very interested in your thoughts regarding its ability to drive a 112” diagonal screen (light controlled room, dark surfaces). My sense is that it just doesn’t have the horsepower for that size screen, at least with the iris clamped down and in best mode. If it were to be used with the iris wide open and on high lamp, do you have an opinion to how it would compare to the IN76 in terms of contrast and brightness?

Also – do you know if the S4 has the built-in vertical stretch modes (HDMI input, all resolutions) needed to accommodate an anamorphic lens?

Thx for whatever feedback you can give, and if anyone else has any info regarding the above, I'd be very interested in hearing from you as well.


Jeff ,

What screen do you have ?
With some gain I think that size would be doable (just my opinion of course) .

I would bet that even with the Iris open the 12s4 will best the IN76 on all counts ( black level , CR , ANSI , etc. ) .

For example : the black level on the Sharp 12K mkII in high brightness is superior to my HC3000 with the iris closed (and the HC3000 has slightly better black level with the iris in use than the IN76 based upon an HT meet comparison that I held a couple years ago) .

I would go for it :D , but again that's just my opinion ;) .

--- Jason

Yeah, what the hell, I'm going to buy the MACK warranty right now, then I won't have to worry about lamp hours and such and I do plan on keeping this PJ for awhile (the wife may never allow me to buy another PJ for some time, LOL).
DGP: can you give me some suggestions on hdmi cords and a splitter (I need the spitter since I have the HD cable box and a PS3 hdmi out with only one hdmi in on my PJ I believe). I also am looking at the following ceiling mount, as I have been told its the type that is well worth the extra money to have the gear adjustable ease. Here are the links of my preliminary searches....

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011001&p_id=2786&seq=1&format=2#description

http://www.beachaudio.com/Peerless/Prs-Unv-p-21962.html

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024008&p_id=3992&seq=1&format=2

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024001&p_id=3989&seq=1&format=2

Also, do you think I need a drop-down tube to lessen any angle to the screen?

Any thoughts again would be greatly appreciated.

I have the exact same HDMI switch (although I no longer use it) and it works just great (no issues) . Monoprice cables are usually excellent , I have many of them in my system .

Peerless mounts are built well and very easy to use , good choice for the money IMO !

I would say get the PJ as close to the top of your screen as possible to avoid less lens shift , so a drop pole might be a good option . Of course only do that if it makes sense and it's not in the way ( like my 12k will end up being ... in the way to an extent ) .

--- Jason

I took a closer look at the specs, and it appears that the VP12S4 has TWO hdmi inputs.....perhaps I do not need the splitter then and just two long hmdi cords?

Yes it does have 2 HDMI inputs ;) .

Use them as you see fit my friend . That will also allow you to have separate calibrations for each HDMI input without switching between stored memory locations (which is what using 1 HDMI input would do) , just one less step .

-- Jason

For mount get the Peerless PRG-UNV. It is a better mount and rated to 50lb. That one is only for 25lb. You can easlily get it for less than $100 shipped. I'm using one on my Sony projector and I like it better than my other RPMUA mount because of the fine adjustment capability without using screwdriver.

based on your above concern, I asked specifically the dealer of this MACK warranty...... http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/mack_warranty_projector_combo.html
....under which situations the bulb is replaced. For this bulb warranty they are: 1. bulb blowup 2. if the bulb has eclipsed the usuable life (say 2000 hours for example) you can get a replacement, or 3. if the bulb "dims"

Under this MACK warranty, in all three of these cases, the bulb replacement cost will be reimbursed to you within 14-21 days.

So you are saying if i used my bulb for 2000 hours, mack will send me a new bulb as long as it's under warranty? Can someone who purchased the mack warranty please confirm? this seems to good to be true.

So you are saying if i used my bulb for 2000 hours, mack will send me a new bulb as long as it's under warranty? Can someone who purchased the mack warranty please confirm? this seems to good to be true.

Im not sure if that is the case with all MACK warranties, but that is the case with the one I bought. The guy who owns the following site who sells the MACK warranties at tapeworkstexas.com told me that is the case.

http://tapeworkstexas.com/mack_warranty_projector_combo.html

For mount get the Peerless PRG-UNV. It is a better mount and rated to 50lb. That one is only for 25lb. You can easlily get it for less than $100 shipped. I'm using one on my Sony projector and I like it better than my other RPMUA mount because of the fine adjustment capability without using screwdriver.

cool, thanks for the heads-up. I was concerned with the weight of the one I listed previously. Do you have a link of where you can get the Peerless PRG-UNV shipped for less than $100. I found it here, but its more expensive....

http://www.beachaudio.com/Peerless/Prgunv-p-117310.html

JeffKB,

The Marantz in its high power mode with the iris open will give a better picture than the IN76. Whether it is worth the upgrade is the question since you already have a decent PJ.

A side note to people on a budget. The marantz 8600 also had a price drop at the same place where the S4 is available and is $200 less than the S4. The S4 has better PQ but the 8600 is ~85-90% the performance of an S4 and is brighter, quieter and has a 4000 hour lamp (compared to a 2000 lamp on the S4). Someone on a tight budget or wants to go longer before an upgrade might consider this PJ.

Bob

Jeff ,

What screen do you have ?
With some gain I think that size would be doable (just my opinion of course) .

I would bet that even with the Iris open the 12s4 will best the IN76 on all counts ( black level , CR , ANSI , etc. ) .

For example : the black level on the Sharp 12K mkII in high brightness is superior to my HC3000 with the iris closed (and the HC3000 has slightly better black level with the iris in use than the IN76 based upon an HT meet comparison that I held a couple years ago) .

I would go for it :D , but again that's just my opinion ;) .

--- Jason
Hi Jason,

Screen is unity gain white unfortunately (DaLite Da-Mat). What may be the deal breaker however, even if brightness isn't, is the ability to do the vertical stretch for my Panamorph. I'm having trouble finding definitive info, but I'm thinking that the 12S4 does not have it. Looks like it was added with the next generation projectors from Marantz (I think).

I'm not running a CIH setup, but I notice distinct improvements in 2.35:1 viewing when using it and would hate to give it up. Most importantly, it also allows me to move the 2.35:1 image to the bottom of the screen so I can use a poor man's masking system to mask the top.

I'll continue to try to find out (maybe BobL can state definitively).

I think you're probably right about the 12S4 besting the IN76 on just about all PQ counts, even with the iris wide open. My planned upgrade path was to 1080p AND a CIH setup, but that will take some serious effort and cash (new projector, new screen, need to rewire my basement HT to accomodate new PJ and equipment rack location). Since I let my wife and kids talk me into getting a pool (hate the dang thing already!), I have limited "fun" money leftover for HT. This sounded like a very nice upgrade for $500 - $600 (after sale of the IN76) that could tide me over until next year when I would jump to 1080p.

Thanks for the feedback, and congrats on the Sharp. Very nice! :D

JeffKB,

The Marantz in its high power mode with the iris open will give a better picture than the IN76. Whether it is worth the upgrade is the question since you already have a decent PJ.

Thanks Bob, that's what I thought. :) Do you know if it offers the vertical stretch needed for anamorphic lenses? Particularly on 1080i/p via HDMI?

does it support 1080p over HDMI?

does it support 1080p over HDMI?
Good question. Just found the manual for the 12s4 and it looks like it does not, although it's not 100% clear. If you look on page 29 it gives the resolution chart, but there's an asterisk next to 1080p/24/25/30 that states DVI only. That's puzzling considering the PJ does not have a DVI port. 1080p/60 does not show as being supported except via component and RGB.

Here's the manual:
http://us.marantz.com/DFU_VP12S4_Final_Eng.pdf

As a side note, no anamorphic stretch mode listed in the manual, so no new toy for me unfortunately... :(

cool, thanks for the heads-up. I was concerned with the weight of the one I listed previously. Do you have a link of where you can get the Peerless PRG-UNV shipped for less than $100. I found it here, but its more expensive....

http://www.beachaudio.com/Peerless/Prgunv-p-117310.html


Do a google search for peerless prg-unv and you'll find on top 3 choices.
Prices change daily so you will need to try for several days.

JeffKB,

A side note to people on a budget. The marantz 8600 also had a price drop at the same place where the S4 is available and is $200 less than the S4. The S4 has better PQ but the 8600 is ~85-90% the performance of an S4 and is brighter, quieter and has a 4000 hour lamp (compared to a 2000 lamp on the S4). Someone on a tight budget or wants to go longer before an upgrade might consider this PJ.

Bob

That is a good advice. Most people don't realize how dim (in HC mode) and loud these high-end projectors are. This one is rated for 27db which is really decent.

The VP4001 is also worth a look. It is brighter than the 12S4 and has a higher contrast ratio since it uses a dual iris system. I replaced one with an RS1 and the two were depressingly close.

The S4 doesn't do vertical stretch.

The 8600 is pretty much silent it definitely gives the Pannys a run for the money for being some of the quietest PJs.

Bob

Do a google search for peerless prg-unv and you'll find on top 3 choices.
Prices change daily so you will need to try for several days.

thanks, I found it at that price.

http://www.bestpricemounts.com/Peerless-PRGUNV-Precision-Gear-Projector-Mount.html?categoryID=193#more

Just checking all the specs and reviews again, and remembering my experience with the VP4001, I'd have to agree with DaGamePimp that the Sharp Z12000 II is the one to go for.

The extra iris gives it double the contrast with similar lens and processing quality.

It doesn't have quite the panache of the Marantz brand, but is good enough that from the VP4001 onwards Marantz essentially is a rebranded Sharp.

I know this thread is now about the excellence of 720P, but the bargains available for the 1080P Sharp Z20000 make it very tempting at under $3K.

Just checking all the specs and reviews again, and remembering my experience with the VP4001, I'd have to agree with DaGamePimp that the Sharp Z12000 II is the one to go for.

The extra iris gives it double the contrast with similar lens and processing quality.

It doesn't have quite the panache of the Marantz brand, but is good enough that from the VP4001 onwards Marantz essentially is a rebranded Sharp.

I know this thread is now about the excellence of 720P, but the bargains available for the 1080P Sharp Z20000 make it very tempting at under $3K.

There are better than the Sharps IMHO, Yamaha DPX1100/1200/1300.
They are much brighter (about 35-40% brighter ) and much quieter in high lamp mode. Their lenses are sharper in the middle although a bit softer at the edges with more noticeable CA. They are more flexible also an have very precise power zoom/tilt/focus mechanisms. Their best features however are the CMS/Color temperature/Gamma control and memory settings. They also come with pre-calibrated BT.601 and BT.709 color space modes that switch automatically between 480i/480p and 720p/1080i resolutions.
I was fortunate to purchase a refurbished DPX1100 projector and I used mainly use it to play DVD's. I use my Sony VW60 to play most BR's.
The Yamaha throws the most natural and film-like pictures I've seen today.
I had a Sharp 12KMk2 before and this one is better even without DC3 chip IMHO.
I must add that I'm sensitive to RBE but I'm not bother by it as much as before mainly because I get distracted by its superb picture quality even though the Yamaha is not better than other single DLP chip projectors in RBE department.

That Sharp 20K projector is a steal too but I waiting for an affordable (under $5K) 3-chip DLP projector or a single chip DLP projector with 6x color wheel speed.

A side note to people on a budget. The marantz 8600 also had a price drop at the same place where the S4 is available and is $200 less than the S4. The S4 has better PQ but the 8600 is ~85-90% the performance of an S4 and is brighter, quieter and has a 4000 hour lamp (compared to a 2000 lamp on the S4). Someone on a tight budget or wants to go longer before an upgrade might consider this PJ.

Bob

The Marantz 8600 is on special just for today for $200 more off if anyone is interested but dont wait a SECOND to ACT;).

bguzman

The Marantz 8600 is on special just for today for $200 more off if anyone is interested but dont wait a SECOND to ACT;).

bguzman


where is this at? Pm or post please, thanks.

The VP4001 is also worth a look. It is brighter than the 12S4 and has a higher contrast ratio since it uses a dual iris system. I replaced one with an RS1 and the two were depressingly close.

Maybe Bisatc can tell you his impressions of the VP4001. He got a demo of 720P last night and I think he was impressed.

Maybe Bisatc can tell you his impressions of the VP4001. He got a demo of 720P last night and I think he was impressed.


Simply Amazing! I can only hope my VP12s4 can deliver the same PQ. I am sure it will. Now AudioIronHorse's audio supremacy........that is something to behold. Can you say 'Ear Orgasm'?

There are better than the Sharps IMHO, Yamaha DPX1100/1200/1300.
They are much brighter (about 35-40% brighter ) and much quieter in high lamp mode. Their lenses are sharper in the middle although a bit softer at the edges with more noticeable CA. They are more flexible also an have very precise power zoom/tilt/focus mechanisms. Their best features however are the CMS/Color temperature/Gamma control and memory settings. They also come with pre-calibrated BT.601 and BT.709 color space modes that switch automatically between 480i/480p and 720p/1080i resolutions.
I was fortunate to purchase a refurbished DPX1100 projector and I used mainly use it to play DVD's. I use my Sony VW60 to play most BR's.
The Yamaha throws the most natural and film-like pictures I've seen today.
I had a Sharp 12KMk2 before and this one is better even without DC3 chip IMHO.
I must add that I'm sensitive to RBE but I'm not bother by it as much as before mainly because I get distracted by its superb picture quality even though the Yamaha is not better than other single DLP chip projectors in RBE department.

That Sharp 20K projector is a steal too but I waiting for an affordable (under $5K) 3-chip DLP projector or a single chip DLP projector with 6x color wheel speed.


The Yammy DPX 1100 is no slouch by any means but I would never call it 'better' than the 12K mkII , just different ;) . The Yammy has a very nice natural look to it (much like some of the Optoma PJ's) because it over saturates the green (which also makes for less visible dithering) . So it's a trade off just as all of these high end DLP's are when comparing against eachother . Now the Yammy is brighter , no doubt there so if you need those extra lumens then it's a great choice . Other than that they are very similar units when it comes to over all IQ .

-- Jason

The Yamaha is brighter, has more placement flexibility, quiter and sharper. These are the reasons for my conclusion, YMMV. The 12KMK2 does have more accurate colors and grey scale tracking. Here are the CIE charts of both units I measured.
The DPX1100's green and red are oversaturated but there is no shift in color so colors do look natural in comparison to my Sony VW60 which has neon-like green.
I will also add that the Yamaha might have more CR since the black level is about the same but the 100IRE level is much brighter.

Yamaha DPX-1100
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/ak1999/dpx1100_CIE.jpg

Sharp XV-Z12000MK2
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/ak1999/sharp_CIE.jpg

After reading this entire thread, I'm interested in a few of these 720p projector. In another thread that I posted yesterday, I talked about a Runco 610 that I fell in love with, but the problem was my local retailer is selling it for $5500.

That is over my budget of $3500 (including a semi-decent screen). So with that being said, I am looking for a solid 720p projector that can be viewed with some ambient light. I can get the room nearly pitch black for movie viewing, but I would like to watch more than DVDs on it.

So I guess my question is, which projector (sharp mk2, infocus 7210, vp12sf) are best for a room with a little ambient light?

I would have included the Yamaha, but I don't see any for less than 6k.

Thanks.

If you are dealing with ambient light situations I think you should stick with Infocus out of the ones you mentioned. You might also check out the IN76, they can be had well within your budget and leave you plenty for your screen. Also they look quite good out of the book if you are not into endlessly tweaking your display like the rest of us. There are also some LCD projectors that do very well with ambient light. Check out the Panasonic PT-AX200U and the Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 720.
Happy hunting

bguzman

If you are dealing with ambient light situations I think you should stick with Infocus out of the ones you mentioned. You might also check out the IN76, they can be had well within your budget and leave you plenty for your screen. Also they look quite good out of the book if you are not into endlessly tweaking your display like the rest of us. There are also some LCD projectors that do very well with ambient light. Check out the Panasonic PT-AX200U and the Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 720.
Happy hunting

bguzman

Thanks for the recommendations, Bguzman. In another thread that I started yesterday, I mentioned that I was a little underwhelmed by the Epson 1080 UB Pro projector. In comparison to the Runco 610, it just didn't compare, imho.

So I'm looking for something more along the lines of the IQ of the Runco 620. I have been told that the IN 7210, Marantz 12SF and Mits HC 3000 would be good choices.

Any opinions on these?

I will look into that IN76 as well.

Thanks.

Supremelectron -- If you were "underwhelmed" by the Epson 1080UB, then the PJs you mentioned won't satisfy you either (or it wasn't set up correctly). As a matter of fact, no PJ under $4K will even come close. The closest would be the JVC-RS1, RS1a, and RS2, and they are over $4K (MSRP) too. Your "semi-decent" screen won't help either - a good Stewart screen will set you back a good chunk of your budget.

According to Art (http://www.projectorreviews.com/Best1080pProjectors032008/index.php), the Epson 1080UB is the closest PJ, that he's reviewed, to his own JVC-RS1. This is after calibration, of course (which applies to all PJs). If you want to stay close to your $3500 budget, you are also going to have to lower your sights to something similar to the 1080UB, Sony VPL-VW40/VW60, and similar PJs. You might find something close in 720p models, but they are also using "last years" technology, and won't have the black levels of the newer 1080p units. Also, it's getting very hard to find good reviews on 720p units - you would have to search through review archives (www.projectorreviews.com, Widescreen Review, etc.)

You also have to remember that dealers that have Runco's set up for display do a good job of setting them up (and calibrating them) correctly - it's their business. That is not true of any other dealer (with possibly the exception of the SIM dealers).

I saw an Infocus PJ setup (an IN4805 and an IN7205, in separate rooms) and they were both an absolutely terrible advertisement for Infocus (and this was an authorized Infocus dealer). The setup showed extreme cases of combing artifacts, as well as being set to their "torch" mode (which does not provide the best image quality). I assume that they had something set up incorrectly.

Supremelectron -- If you were "underwhelmed" by the Epson 1080UB, then the PJs you mentioned won't satisfy you either (or it wasn't set up correctly). As a matter of fact, no PJ under $4K will even come close. The closest would be the JVC-RS1, RS1a, and RS2, and they are over $4K (MSRP) too.

According to Art (http://www.projectorreviews.com/Best1080pProjectors032008/index.php), the Epson 1080UB is the closest PJ, that he's reviewed, to his own JVC-RS1. This is after calibration, of course (which applies to all PJs).

You also have to remember that dealers that have Runco's set up for display do a good job of setting them up (and calibrating them) correctly - it's their business. That is not true of any other dealer (with possibly the exception of the SIM dealers).

I saw an Infocus PJ setup (an IN4805 and an IN7205, in separate rooms) and they were both an absolutely terrible advertisement for Infocus (and this was an authorized Infocus dealer). The setup showed extreme cases of combing artifacts, as well as being set to their "torch" mode (which does not provide the best image quality). I assume that they had something set up incorrectly.

CT - Thanks for the reply. You could be totally correct regarding the 1080 UB not being calibrated properly. I definitely wouldn't know if it was or not. Maybe I'll travel around some more and see if I can find another 1080 UB on display.

However, that Runco one really impressed me and from the sounds of it, the Marantz and Infocus 7210 were at least comparable.

I know what you mean. I saw a Runco at my local high-end dealer last Friday and it was gorgeous. I seriously doubt that you will see any good demos at any of the stores that sell Infocus or Epson PJs. And you must ask them (most likely the store manager, not the salesman) if the PJ is calibrated. The dealer's salesman (where I saw the Infocus units) claimed that "they were adjusted" - at least he didn't say they were "calibrated", since that would have been an obvious lie. They were so badly out, that they gave me a headache after 5 minutes of watching at 15' from a 92" screen (sunglasses helped).

PS -- I added some more comments to my previous post, after you made your, above, post. The 7205 that I saw was very good, even though it wasn't set up correctly. I still don't think it is a match for the 1080UB though (no personal experience though, just references from reviewers I trust). The 7210 is supposed to be better than the 7205, but I have no data. I've never seen a Marantz PJ, but those are supposed to be good too.

The newer IN76 (http://www.projectorreviews.com/infocus/play-big-in76/index.php) is supposed to be better than the 7205 that I did see - it should be better than the 7210, which only had some minor changes from the 7205. The IN76 also has vertical and horizontal lens shift, which the newer DLP PJs don't have (except for the BenQ W5000, which has some picture flaws).

Supremelectron -- If you were "underwhelmed" by the Epson 1080UB, then the PJs you mentioned won't satisfy you either (or it wasn't set up correctly). As a matter of fact, no PJ under $4K will even come close.
With all due respect, I dont feel this is a very good piece of advice. While the 1080 is a nice PJ indeed and probably the only LCD I could go for, there are several DLPs under 4K that I would take over it and that, to my eyes, give better IQ as well. ;)
As much as I like to stay away from the LCD vs DLP debates, comments like this make it too hard for my restrain.

And as for the "last year's technology" comment all I have to say is :confused:

Supremelectron -- If you were "underwhelmed" by the Epson 1080UB, then the PJs you mentioned won't satisfy you either (or it wasn't set up correctly). As a matter of fact, no PJ under $4K will even come close. The closest would be the JVC-RS1, RS1a, and RS2, and they are over $4K (MSRP) too. Your "semi-decent" screen won't help either - a good Stewart screen will set you back a good chunk of your budget.

According to Art (http://www.projectorreviews.com/Best1080pProjectors032008/index.php), the Epson 1080UB is the closest PJ, that he's reviewed, to his own JVC-RS1. This is after calibration, of course (which applies to all PJs). If you want to stay close to your $3500 budget, you are also going to have to lower your sights to something similar to the 1080UB, Sony VPL-VW40/VW60, and similar PJs. You might find something close in 720p models, but they are also using "last years" technology, and won't have the black levels of the newer 1080p units. Also, it's getting very hard to find good reviews on 720p units - you would have to search through review archives (www.projectorreviews.com, Widescreen Review, etc.)

You also have to remember that dealers that have Runco's set up for display do a good job of setting them up (and calibrating them) correctly - it's their business. That is not true of any other dealer (with possibly the exception of the SIM dealers).

I saw an Infocus PJ setup (an IN4805 and an IN7205, in separate rooms) and they were both an absolutely terrible advertisement for Infocus (and this was an authorized Infocus dealer). The setup showed extreme cases of combing artifacts, as well as being set to their "torch" mode (which does not provide the best image quality). I assume that they had something set up incorrectly.

I am pretty sure that the IN76 does not have any lens shift.

Luis, I'm not into DLP vs LCD wars either (I own both) and I certainly don't want to be confrontational about it. I was only considering PQ vs price. I personally don't like the direction the latest DLP are taking with their large fixed negative offsets. That aspect just kills them for my use. Each person has their own preferences and requirements. As a Sales Rep, you should be well aware of that.

The "last years" comment is true, even though you may not want to admit it (and that is in reference to warranty support - the older units will not have factory support for as long as the new units, some manufacturers are worse than others too, in that regard). That said, I would certainly prefer "last years" (or even 2 year old) DLP PJs over the current crop. I think the DLP camp has taken a step (or 3) backwards in terms of the designs that they are delivering (I haven't kept up with the "expensive" ones - $6K and up, that's way over my budget).

That's (lens shift) what makes the BenQ W5000 so interesting. I sure hope BenQ will come up with a solution to their "image noise" problem (they are working on it, and hope to have a fix in the next firmware update, according to Art).

mjg100 -- Oops, you are right. The review I looked at stated that it did in the "spec summary", but in the body of the review, it confirmed that it did not have lens shift. I apologize. I knew there was a reason I had not, initially, considered it.

The newer IN76 (http://www.projectorreviews.com/infocus/play-big-in76/index.php) is supposed to be better than the 7205 that I did see - it should be better than the 7210, which only had some minor changes from the 7205. flaws).

with all do respect I need to disagree.

the IN76 is not superior over the SP-7210.

thank you.



cheers

Murphy:)

I think I'm down to the Marantz 12S4 or the Infocus 7210. The last deciding factor here is lighting.

I plan to watch it in a pitch black movie, maybe 80% of the time. But I would like to have small ambient lights on every now and then to watch other programs on cable tv.

Can the Marantz handle any light?

The Marantz on a smaller screen <100" or High power screen can handle "small" ambient light. The question is how much and how the light is positioned. If the light will directly hit the screen or be in the light path between the screen and the projector it will have a greater affect on it. The Marantz does have presets so you can have some brighter modes but it is still not nearly as bright as a 7210 can get.

For info. The IN76 does not have lens shift. There are some small tradeoffs between the IN76 and 7210 but overall the 7210 is better and should be compared to the IN78.

I'd take a Marantz S4 and 7210 over an Epson 1080UB. The Epson has some advantages like black levels and resolution. Its processing is better than the 7210 and tradeoffs with the S4 processing (HQV vs. Gennum). It does not have as good CR, either native or ANSI as the other two and is no where as good out of the box without calibration. It is much more flexible machine as far as placement and varying brightness levels.

Bob

Thanks for the info, Bob! I think I'll sleep on it and choose between the 7210 and S4 tomorrow. Thanks again!

BobL,

Do you know if there is some preset configuration or "easy" way to configure the s4? I have 92" matte white screen. There maybe some ambient light such as lamp post from outside that may filter through the blinds etc...

Couldnt find any thread dedicated to s4 setup, usually i just copy other people's configurations :o

thanks!

There is no "magic bullet". You really need to get a calibration disc and calibrate your own PJ in your own room with your own screen, as a minimum.

With a quality PJ like the Maramtz, it is a shame to not "do it right". A professional calibration would be better, but will cost more. However, calibration costs are only a very small percentage of the cost of your HT setup.

The S4 has 9 user settings! You could easily set one of them for high power, iris open amd higher gamma for daytime viewing and have others for dark viewing and can use the different setting for different inputs. Copying other people's settings rarely work with projectors because room conditions and type of screen can greatly affect calibration. It is pretty good out of the box but I'd still at minimum get a SD test disc and the HD blu-ray one if you have a BR player.

The S4 has 9 user settings! You could easily set one of them for high power, iris open amd higher gamma for daytime viewing and have others for dark viewing and can use the different setting for different inputs. Copying other people's settings rarely work with projectors because room conditions and type of screen can greatly affect calibration. It is pretty good out of the box but I'd still at minimum get a SD test disc and the HD blu-ray one if you have a BR player.

what are these, and where can I get one? I am in the process of setting up my S4 and theater room and I use my PS3 as my Blu-ray player. Thanks.

For Blu-Ray

http://www.jkpi.net/DVE_HDBasics.php

There are various SD discs such as Digital Video Essentials (DVE), AVIA, Monster/ISF, Sound & Vision home Theater Tune Up, etc. There are also some HD and SD file you can download elsewhere on this site and burn into discs. Someone will post the link I'm sure. I forget where it is.

Bob

For Blu-Ray

http://www.jkpi.net/DVE_HDBasics.php

There are various SD discs such as Digital Video Essentials (DVE), AVIA, Monster/ISF, Sound & Vision home Theater Tune Up, etc. There are also some HD and SD file you can download elsewhere on this site and burn into discs. Someone will post the link I'm sure. I forget where it is.

Bob


Thanks. Bought the DVE and some other Blu-ray disks.

Are the SD's that come with the THX Optimizer considered bottom of the barrel for calibration?

Are the SD's that come with the THX Optimizer considered bottom of the barrel for calibration?

That can get you part of the way there for a very basic calibration , it's a good starting point but the other discs are far more advanced and will give better results when used properly ( AVIA/DVE/etc. )

-- Jason

Well i got my vp4 today. Still waiting for my ps3 and hdmi cable to arrive, only tried it out on a cheap philips dvd player via component, so wont comment on the PQ much

Good:
- very flexible setup especially for a dlp
- brightness is not as bad as everyone say, i have it on "normal" mode with some street lights filtering through, no issues at all.
- unit's condition is very good and well packed for a refurbed
- i played black hawk down dvd(my test disc, due to the heavy black scenes) via 480i without any calibration, the black level is good but i didnt notice any significant improvement over an average darkchip2 dlp projector.
- Some low fan noise, but with sound on not noticeable

Bad:
- Unit has 750 hours on the lamp already :mad: The online store i bought from specifically told me 10-20%, not 35%+ used. I am going to email them, not sure what it will do though as i dont feel like returning it.
- It's heavy, the projector is much bigger and heavier than any normal projector i am used to. I was going to put it on the coffee table, now i am afraid it will flatten it.
- Came with the wrong 12vps2 manual

Questions:
1) I understand if i feed the projector 480i, it will upconvert it to 720p or at least to 480p? But the info just shows the source as 480i, it doesnt seem to be upconverting to 720p or 480p? how do i tell it's converting or not?
2) Lamp mode: normal or economy, which one should i use for best PQ? is that the high brightness mode you guys are talking about
3) IRIS F5.0 vs F3.0 setting, which has better PQ?
4) Theater, dynamic, standard, or cinema mode. Which do people prefer for best PQ?

Sorry if the questions sound stupid, it will take me a while to decipher what all the settings mean. Will post some pictures and more feedback after hooking it up to ps3 playing blu-ray. thanks

1. It shows the signal it is getting. The projector is 720P and everything has to get scaled to it. If the picture doesn't fit the screen's width then it is not upconverting. Make sure your DVD's settings are set for 16:9/ widescreen

2. Normal mode is what other companies would call high brightness. Economy for best PQ.

3. F5.0 for better PQ, F3.0 for more brightness

4. Standard is closest to the 2.2 gamma reference but individual preferences may vary

Does the unit say lamp life 750 hours? This would mean there is 1250 hours on the lamp as the lamp life referes to hours remaining not used. Either way it is a lot and I would call the dealer.

Heavy is a good thing! Means better power supply, components, lens, etc.

Bob

1. It shows the signal it is getting. The projector is 720P and everything has to get scaled to it. If the picture doesn't fit the screen's width then it is not upconverting. Make sure your DVD's settings are set for 16:9/ widescreen

2. Normal mode is what other companies would call high brightness. Economy for best PQ.

3. F5.0 for better PQ, F3.0 for more brightness

4. Standard is closest to the 2.2 gamma reference but individual preferences may vary

Does the unit say lamp life 750 hours? This would mean there is 1250 hours on the lamp as the lamp life referes to hours remaining not used. Either way it is a lot and I would call the dealer.

Heavy is a good thing! Means better power supply, components, lens, etc.

Bob

thanks for the reply bob, yes it says 750 hours with 1200ish hours remaining. I emailed the dealer.

Regarding everything gets scaled to 720p, i just remembered upconvert only works via hdmi right? so if i am using component, would it still upconvert to 720p? The dvd player is definitly at 16:9.

My vp-12S4 is out for delivery. I was told the same, that there would only be 10/20% on bulb! Sorry to hear that.

Anyway I have the RS1 to compare it too so I will report back.

Very excited about this PJ. Never owned a DLP before and from what I've read and heard this is one of the better 720's.

gagaliya, which S4 did you get? I purchased the black/short throw.

Alex

My vp-12S4 is out for delivery. I was told the same, that there would only be 10/20% on bulb! Sorry to hear that.

Anyway I have the RS1 to compare it too so I will report back.

Very excited about this PJ. Never owned a DLP before and from what I've read and heard this is one of the better 720's.

gagaliya, which S4 did you get? I purchased the black/short throw.

Alex

What screen are you using? The RS1 is a very bright projector and it will be hard to share same screen with VP12s4.
I also bought a 720 DLP projector (actually 2) to complement my VW60 and it has been a challenge to use same screen for both projectors.
Luckily my second one has power zoom/focus/shift control so I reduce projected screen size from 118" to 92" when I want to use best high contrast mode.

What screen are you using? The RS1 is a very bright projector and it will be hard to share same screen with VP12s4.
I also bought a 720 DLP projector (actually 2) to complement my VW60 and it has been a challenge to use same screen for both projectors.
Luckily my second one has power zoom/focus/shift control so I reduce projected screen size from 118" to 92" when I want to use best high contrast mode.

Dalite matte white 92". Won't be able to use both at once until I get proper switcher. The RS1 is a bright PJ, but I'm using a hoya filter for it so it shold be a good comparison.

Dalite matte white 92". Won't be able to use both at once until I get proper switcher. The RS1 is a bright PJ, but I'm using a hoya filter for it so it shold be a good comparison.

That is about right size for a screen with no gain.
I'm using a cheap monoprice mechanical switcher with the internal power switching diodes in reverse position.

That is about right size for a screen with no gain.
I'm using a cheap monoprice mechanical switcher with the internal power switching diodes in reverse position.

I'll eventually pick up a nice 4/5 in 2 out switcher when I move my theartre into my new location (baby takes presidents, can't put crib in office:(thats a no no).

What two 720 DLP do you own?

I'll eventually pick up a nice 4/5 in 2 out switcher when I move my theartre into my new location (baby takes presidents, can't put crib in office:(thats a no no).

What two 720 DLP do you own?

I use my Onkyo 805 receiver for switching inputs so a simple 2 to 1 HDMI switcher converted to 1 to 2 was the quick and inexpensive solution that worked.

I had the Sharp XVZ12000mk2 and I curently have the Yamaha DPX-1100. They both display the distinct DLP look (including RBE) that is very appealing on certain scenes. I also had set up problem with the Sharp unit which includes incompatibility with my Onkyo's HDMI repeater and insufficient throw distance to fill my screen so I reluctantly sold it. It only had about 130 bulb hours when I sold it. I would have grabbed one these Marantz deals but the VP12s4 is not bright enough for my set up.

Upconversion works on all inputs.

I would have grabbed one these Marantz deals but the VP12s4 is not bright enough for my set up.

I'm very curious as to how Marantz or any other high end FP manufacture like Sharp can sell these units so cheap even if they are refurbs. AFAIK the lens alone costs more than what I payed for the S4.

It has arrived!!:D:D:D

Well its definitely not black, but I hope its a short throw!

My brother just received his marantz vp12s4 from second act. We fired it up to see how much use had already been put on the projector. For lamp hours it reads 1999 and below that it states total time which is 111. Does total time represent total hours on the projector? 1999 lamp hours refers to hours remaining correct?

I've got to stop lurking on these forums. I've got the VP-4001 Marantz and it's an excellent all-around performer for movies, sports, etc. Bad thing is that I've always been lusty after the 12s4. I must resist the urge to buy another projector.....

I'll keep hoping the 11s1 falls to the 3.5K range.....

I'll say this, the 12s4 at 1.2K is a heck of a buy. Maybe I'll grab this as a backup? Maybe I should just buy the 15S1. Heck, why not get the 11s2. C what I mean?

By all means ... heck when the 11s2 is $1200 I'll buy a few myself :D .

-- Jason

Well its definitely not black, but I hope its a short throw!

I think only the Black casing is the short throw , I called them on it a few days ago and that is what I was told . So it sounds like you were sent the medium throw by mistake . My guess is they ran out of the short throw very quickly because most people want the LARGE screen .

-- Jason

I use my Onkyo 805 receiver for switching inputs so a simple 2 to 1 HDMI switcher converted to 1 to 2 was the quick and inexpensive solution that worked.

AKuan ,

Is there a link that describes the procedure for converting the 2-1 Monoprice switcher to a 1-2 ?

Thank You ,
- Jason

AKuan ,

Is there a link that describes the procedure for converting the 2-1 Monoprice switcher to a 1-2 ?

Thank You ,
- Jason

It is very simple to do the mod. You just need to open case, slide pcb board out and you will see two small diodes that you either re-solder them in reverse orientation or you can just short their two leads with bypass wires.
This is for the mechanical switcher only http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011001&p_id=2786&seq=1&format=2

I have that exact switcher sitting here collecting dust but I have a use for a 1 to 2 so that would be great . Are there any pics of this mod or are there only 2 obvious diodes ?

Thanks again for bringing it up , I had not heard about this mod before ;) .

*** EDIT : Ah nevermind , I just popped it open and I see the diodes right next to the HDMI plugs ;) . ***

-- Jason

Those two diodes are the only other components besides the switches.

Got it , done and done ... just have to test it out later .

Thanks again AKuan ;) .

-- Jason

gagaliya, which S4 did you get? I purchased the black/short throw.

Alex


i got the med throw version, which is what i wanted. But i dont see a option to choose short/long version on secondact's website, unless you got it from somewhere else?

i got the med throw version, which is what i wanted. But i dont see a option to choose short/long version on secondact's website, unless you got it from somewhere else?

There was a choice earlier for either the short throw with black casing or medium throw with white casing. I ordered a short throw myself and it is due in tomorrow, I hope I actually get a short throw version. I currently have a Optoma H77 hanging in my room with a Dalite High Power and am curious to see how much of an improvement there will be.

Moe

My brother just received his marantz vp12s4 from second act. We fired it up to see how much use had already been put on the projector. For lamp hours it reads 1999 and below that it states total time which is 111. Does total time represent total hours on the projector? 1999 lamp hours refers to hours remaining correct?

correct, I believe 111 is the hours on your bulb. I got nervous and opened mine up and fired it up. 19 hours total time on the bulb. Sweet, its brand new......and white? But seems to be in tip-top shape. :) Now, time to paint the black on my ceiling and black-out my windows. Hopefully get her up and running soon.

Do I have the medium throw since the case is white? And how do I find out which one it is? Thanks.

I think only the Black casing is the short throw , I called them on it a few days ago and that is what I was told . So it sounds like you were sent the medium throw by mistake . My guess is they ran out of the short throw very quickly because most people want the LARGE screen .

-- Jason

I have plenty of room for throw distance, i.e. long room. Is having the 'white case' or medium throw s4 going to mess anything up for me DaGamePimp?
What will it change?
Thanks.

I originally ordered the Medium Throw 12s4 on Sunday the 11th but the Short Throw units weren't available then. When I heard/saw the Short Throws were available I called and exchanged, which the retailer graciously accepted and allowed me to refuse delivery of the first one last Friday. Of course I paid a little extra shipping, but I am better off in my smaller room with the short throw which will be arriving tomorrow.

I'll be firing it up tomorrow night after the kids go to bed.

I have plenty of room for throw distance, i.e. long room. Is having the 'white case' or medium throw s4 going to mess anything up for me DaGamePimp?
What will it change?
Thanks.

Should not be an issue for you at all then if you have all the throw distance that you could possibly need to fill your desired screen size ;) .

My comment was based on the fact that many people like to have a nice large image but don't always have the long room to pull it off .

-- Jason

The casing is white w/ a short throw lens. 486 hrs on bulb 1514 left. 2400 total on unit.

I am very impressed with the S4!

I think my S4 has been professionally calibrated

Stayed home from work, was up late. I will be setting my RS1 back up again to compare today, but I have a feeling besides black level and resolution the S4 does everything else better

Sharper
better color
It's got that pop in higher APL scenes that everyone talks about.
The uniformity of the picture is excellent (better lens I think).

The better color is what I think makes the biggest difference for myself and the wife. The wife still has no idea its a different PJ. I told her I made some tweeks to the RS1. All see kept saying is how much better the colors were and how sharp the picture looked. I will tell her when she gets home today, shes will be shocked.

I also need to set-up the RS1 cause I have my PS3 locked in 1080 24P and the S4 is saying it is out of range, I need to unlock the 24 feature. The weird thing is my toshiba XA2 is set at 1080 24p and it works fine on auto the S4 says 1080i.

I had the feeling I was gonna be underwhelmed but the opposite happen. I might have an RS1 with a new bulb for sale soon. I can smell a 15S1 or 11S2 in my near future.