Hi all,

For those who followed my previous thread, just recap:
I had to let go my 4 years 9" Modded marquee CRT because of throw distance and size. I decided on the RS2 as its said to be closest to CRT. 1 week ago, I received my long awaited RS2. Didn't want to give impressions
before fully calibrating the unit. Gamut, White Balance, and Gamma all been calibrated with i1pro, Spyder2, and lumagen Radiance.
Reading all avs thread, I was surprised my conclusion wasn't very close to general concensus. That is:

Sharpness: RS2 is very sharp (on static screen only, but more on that later). I really don't understand all the the threads complaining about lense quality issues. True it have some slight CA with red wavelenght on the side but it is only seen on cross hatch paterns! I can easily work on my desktop PC at 1080. Just make sure you feed the unit with the right signal and keep sharpness @-10 with BNR @0 for 1-1 mapping. I also previously had a NEC DLP and the RS2 is in no way softer.
Color: Out of the box, skin have a yellow cast. Radiance Gamut control fixed that and colors are now more accurate then my previous CRT because blue phosphore was just little undersaturated.
Contrast: Oh ****! Nothing to envy CRT. I mean, Intra scene contrast was 95% of the time better then on my CRT. Only difference is on extremely dark material. Big thumb up to JVC!
Digital noise: JVC is good, but my CRT is better. Had acceptable results on JVC after a lot of tweaking in my DVD/BR player and Video processor. SD DVD looked much cleaner on my CRT and more "organic".
Motion Resolution: This must be the only and the biggest downside of the RS2. Film material looks great with slow motion objects eventhough on faster movements, things degrades a little bit. Its like when camera pans, backgroud gets bit blurry but once camera rest everything seems to fall back into place and image details are Tac sharp!
On the other hand Video performance was not acceptable! With 60fps materials, you do get blur! This is especially apparent on people faces when they move. You do loose a lot of details, something I didn't have on my CRT with exact same setup. To illustrate this issue I attached a small image for you to experiment on.
Try to open it in a window and then with your mouse move it slowly around. On LYCOS, the hairs gets darker and some tends to disapear. ON my deskptop LCD it is even worse. But On my CRT FP, they remain rock solid with gaps well defined. I think PWM displays like Plasma and DLP might not exhibit this shortcoming to the same extent.


Overall, IMHO I do bilieve the RS2 is a great buy especially if most of your viewing is film based HD materials. But for SD Video, the CRT wins easily. (if you are happy with your digital, don't go watch a CRT with video material;) )
For HD video, the RS2 is v good but CRT is better.
Right now I am thinking of keeping the RS2, its HD Film picture is amazing! But am seriously considering looking for another PJ to suplement it when watching video(A PWM display propably when they solve dithering issues). This way I get best of both words!

Sam.

Digital noise: JVC is good, but my CRT is better. Had acceptable results on JVC after a lot of tweaking in my DVD/BR player and Video processor. SD DVD looked much cleaner on my CRT and more "organic".
.
The CRT reduces noise because it attenuates high frequencies (electron beam spread). That makes it less accurate but potentially more pleasing to the eye.

The CRT reduces noise because it attenuates high frequencies (electron beam spread). That makes it less accurate but potentially more pleasing to the eye.

and because CRT don't have to re sample them and hence the eye is more tolerant to them. I found this quote

"In analog displays like the CRT, noise tends to automatically cancel out through temporal and spatial averaging because of its random nature. This makes the noise much less visually apparent. On the other hand, most digital displays will magnify the appearance of analog signal noise because they sample the signal, so the noise component becomes pixelated." By Dr. Raymond M. Soneira. President, DisplayMate Technologies Co. check here:
http://www.displaymate.com/ShootOut_Part_3.htm .

Yeah there is something super smooth about a good CRT.

LCOS will always have some blur. I believe LCOS is rated at less then 5ms. Very hard to find any solid info about response time for LCOS. From my research, I found that the only tech that comes close to CRT is DLP. Even Plasma has slight blur, and it adds it's own artifact know as phosphor trailing. Basically the green phosphor is slower then the red and blue ones, and this creates a green trail in high contrast scenes.

and because CRT don't have to re sample them and hence the eye is more tolerant to them. I found this quote

"In analog displays like the CRT, noise tends to automatically cancel out through temporal and spatial averaging because of its random nature. This makes the noise much less visually apparent. On the other hand, most digital displays will magnify the appearance of analog signal noise because they sample the signal, so the noise component becomes pixelated." By Dr. Raymond M. Soneira. President, DisplayMate Technologies Co. check here:
http://www.displaymate.com/ShootOut_Part_3.htm .

No (re)sampling from the JVC. It's 1:1 pixel accurate from the 1080p source (There might be minor vertical sharpening applied. I think Greg Rogers mentioned something).

LCOS will always have some blur.

I don't remember seeing any motion blur on my VW50's or VW60.

I have the VW50. I do game alot and thats where the blur is apparent. It's not like a trailing you find on most LCDs, but more of a loss of moving resolution. The picture losses sharpness during movement. I also game on a CRT and I can definitely state that the CRT has NO loss in moving resolution. It's razor sharp while moving. For 99% of people LCOS blur is a non issue, for the other 1% we'll never be happy with what we have anyway:(

DLP seems to have the best moving resolution from what I've read. Even better then plasma. That's why Im waiting for the LED DLP that will hopefully be announced SOON. Rainbows bug the crap out of me.

This is interesting. I noticed this years ago at the first JVC HD2K demo at CEDIA. I'm assuming that it is less of an issue now than it was with that projector.

Art

I have the VW50. I do game alot and thats where the blur is apparent. It's not like a trailing you find on most LCDs, but more of a loss of moving resolution. The picture losses sharpness during movement. I also game on a CRT and I can definitely state that the CRT has NO loss in moving resolution. It's razor sharp while moving.Are you using the same output format (i.e. 1080p60) on both the CRT and VW50? Do you have ALL noise reduction and ALL other optional processing turned OFF on the VW50?

Yes all processing on the Pearl is off. I feed my CRT a 1080i signal at 60hz and my Pearl a 1080p signal at 60hz. I have to make it clear that I am hyper sensitive to motion blur, and being a hardcore gamer doesn't help. I found my pearl to be satisfying for gaming. LCD, even with 120hz and 4ms still blur and leave trails. Plasma gives of phosphor trails. (green streaks in high contrast scenes) My pearl does not streak or trail, but it does lose sharpness during motion. I am basically confirming what the original poster said. I will be buying a DLP Projo next week from BB to try it out for 30 days to do a comparison with my pearl. I will report back and let you know how it performs with motion tests. I also need to see if a 6x colour wheel will eliminate rainbows for me.

I too came from a calibrated 9500LC with Mike Parker Mods. IMHO, the few pluses of the CRT are far out weighed by the RS2....but each person has their own priorities. You couldn't pay me to install another CRT......EVER. I have yet to calibrate my RS2 but out of the box is one truly amazing piece of equipment. I have not seen a great 3 chip DLP, but if it's much better than my RS2, CRT is done .... (and for what's it's worth, I'm analog guy in audio so it's not about the convenience_

And one more thing. Since the movie experience is about immersion and screen size plays a huge role in that, how many 9 inch CRT's will be required to create a bright enough image on my 10 foot screen (then we get to converge two systems. What fun?)

Well the HD2K is a lot worse than the RS2. I don't notice it at all on the RS2, but the HD2K and my G15s were pretty bad.

Are you using the same output format (i.e. 1080p60) on both the CRT and VW50? Do you have ALL noise reduction and ALL other optional processing turned OFF on the VW50?


Greg, did you notice any "motion blur" on the VW60, RS1, or RS2?

For 99% of people LCOS blur is a non issue


Is it a sensitivity issue (like RBE)? If so, why have I not seen it on any other LCOS? :confused:

I have the VW50. I do game alot and thats where the blur is apparent. It's not like a trailing you find on most LCDs, but more of a loss of moving resolution. The picture losses sharpness during movement. I also game on a CRT and I can definitely state that the CRT has NO loss in moving resolution. It's razor sharp while moving. For 99% of people LCOS blur is a non issue, for the other 1% we'll never be happy with what we have anyway:(

DLP seems to have the best moving resolution from what I've read. Even better then plasma. That's why Im waiting for the LED DLP that will hopefully be announced SOON. Rainbows bug the crap out of me.

I have 2 XBOX 360's, one hooked up to an RS-1 and another hooked up to a Samsung LCD flat panel. My son and I have done a lot of gaming (MX vs ATV Unleashed) on both and I've never noticed a blurring difference between the two. I also have a DLP RPTV that I do a lot of viewing on (but no gaming) and I've never noticed any blurring differences between these three technologies.

The older JVC's used a much thicker LC layer with a slow (50-60hz) response time. Perceived flicker was sometimes an issue with the older DILA panel's and people have mentioned motion blur with these too but it wasn't something that I ever noticed.

I've seen it in the RS1 plenty of times. I see it in DLP as well.

It's very easy to see actually. The white scroll bar from left to right pattern on the VP50 shows it perfectly.

Cliff

Greg, did you notice any "motion blur" on the VW60, RS1, or RS2?You can see motion blur from sources (MPEG compression for instance) but unless there is motion-adaptive deinterlacing or other temporal video processing (like noise reduction) enabled in the projector, I haven't identified any significant "motion blur" attributed to these projectors. When you see "motion blur" during 60 Hz video sources sent to a fixed-pixel projector as 480i or 1080i there is going to be obvious motion-adaptive deinterlacing "blur" because the resolution is dramatically reduced during motion. Of course, with film sources there should be no motion-adaptive deinterlacing.

Is it a sensitivity issue (like RBE)? If so, why have I not seen it on any other LCOS? :confused:When someone tells me they see something, I believe they see something. But sort of like UFO's I would like to examine all of the more likely possibilities before I accept a seemingly less likely explanation. In this case the LCoS devices have about 2.5 mS rise/fall times (usually quoted as total rise+fall response times of 4 mS or 5 mS). The hard part of trying to explain what someone else sees, is that you didn't see it yourself. For instance, some people describe judder while watching film displayed at 60p as a blurring effect.

If you use LCOS for film or TV then you will be fine. The blur is so subtle that I only know it's there because 1. I have a high sensitivity to motion blur, and 2. I've been playing video games since I was 5. All my Tv's have been CRT based tech for the past 20 or so years. (front projo, rear projo, direct view)I just recently went to LCOS for my Pearl and am almost completely satisfied with the motion handling of LCOS. However, when I pop in a game like Ninja Gaiden for the PS3 which runs at 60FPS and at 1080p rez, the difference between LCOS and CRT is very evident when it comes to keeping sharpness durring movement. Spinning the camera on the Pearl causes a loss of detail in the textures. On my CRT the textures lose no detail durring spinning. Honestly, unless you have done some of the tests that I have and a few others, you would NEVER find anything wrong with the motion capabilites of LCOS tech. I have ordered the Benq 5000, and will report how it handles motion when I get it.

When someone tells me they see something, I believe they see something. But sort of like UFO's I would like to examine all of the more likely possibilities before I accept a seemingly less likely explanation. In this case the LCoS devices have about 2.5 mS rise/fall times (usually quoted as total rise+fall response times of 4 mS or 5 mS). The hard part of trying to explain what someone else sees, is that you didn't see it yourself. For instance, some people describe judder while watching film displayed at 60p as a blurring effect.

I think that's a good point. Over on UK AVF this user resported similar issues and attempted to work out if it was source of display tech. Here's an extract his finding for what it's worth.

After doing some comparisons on a CRT TV (my previous main image source) and my LCD PC monitor (24" full HD capable samsung) wrt the HD100 I have come to the following conclusion: it's a combination of both the material as well as the projector.
1. When blur occurs due to movement of a close-up character/face this is not distracting on the CRT, but it is distracting on the HD100. My guess is that I am more perceptive to this than others who own this projector, because it's the first time I read about this in this thread. I found Underworld on BR, Brokeback Mountain on HD-DVD and The Shawshank Redemption and Enemy of the State on DVD good reference material for this.
2. When blur occurs due to movement of the camera it's in the source material. I put the disc on pause and I noticed most often the still image is blurred as well. Good reference disc were LOTR - Fellowship of the Ring and (A strange phenomena happens in Monster Inc. where a Newspaper Box is sharp in every frame, but blurs during movement of the "camera". This is the same on the CRT and the HD100 though) But somehow the HD100 makes the panning blur a bit worse, probably due to the effect seen during close-up movement of faces/characters.

What I don't understand is that in things like fire, or image transfers from one scene to another, this is not an issue. Maybe it is has to do with the fact that you are able to follow the movement, and with fire and scene transitions you're not.

The other thing is: the rest of the projected image is actually BETTER than the CRT TV (and I'm not even talking about the LCD monitor), in a direct comparison. Of course I miss the "resolution" of the HD100, but well-produced DVD's look almost as good as BR on the HD100, which is a good thing I guess (makes the decission to buy a BR easier: only if it's a leap away from the DVD, it's worth the money).

Anyway: to those that do not own a HD100/RS2 or HD1/RS1 yet and are out for a demo or so: make sure you are very familour with the material you watch during the demo. Because this projector can sweep you away easily with it's incredible images. And if you plan to play games using this projector, do a demo of that too, it gives you a better understanding of what you're actually buying: while I think it's a good projector and special in many aspects, it is - in the end - essentially flawed. If this is enough to put you off, will be a personal matter (like the rainbow effect on single DLP designs, or the colors gamut of the LCOS descigns). But still, looking at the price of this projector, I expected it to be closer to perfect. I guess that's where my assumption was wrong. (maybe I should have known: look at what the more expensive LCD TVs cost, and they don't even come close to what I would want to look at for watching movies)

If you use LCOS for film or TV then you will be fine. The blur is so subtle that I only know it's there because 1. I have a high sensitivity to motion blur, and 2. I've been playing video games since I was 5. All my Tv's have been CRT based tech for the past 20 or so years. (front projo, rear projo, direct view)I just recently went to LCOS for my Pearl and am almost completely satisfied with the motion handling of LCOS. However, when I pop in a game like Ninja Gaiden for the PS3 which runs at 60FPS and at 1080p rez, the difference between LCOS and CRT is very evident when it comes to keeping sharpness durring movement. Spinning the camera on the Pearl causes a loss of detail in the textures. On my CRT the textures lose no detail durring spinning. Honestly, unless you have done some of the tests that I have and a few others, you would NEVER find anything wrong with the motion capabilites of LCOS tech. I have ordered the Benq 5000, and will report how it handles motion when I get it.

I Second that. Yesterday a friend of mine connected his PS3 directly and he played Football game and the blur was very easy to spot. Whenever the green field start to scroll horizontally, it looses details and when it the scrolling stops, You notice a lot of details in the terrain and fine textures pops up. No source comrpession here. I also made sure any post processing in the rs2 is disabled unless there is something hidden in the menu that can't be disabled or bypassed anyways.

I made a little program that takes the pics I attached and scroll it around the desktop at speed of 2 pixel 60 times a second. That did confirm my findings.

The CRT reduces noise because it attenuates high frequencies (electron beam spread). That makes it less accurate but potentially more pleasing to the eye.

CRT monitors have been used for years on Desktop pc with resolution up to 1600*1200. I doubt a 9" CRT will roll off any HF details @ 720*480/576 res. Put in a 1 pixel horizontal burst image and the lines are v well defined.
Your quote might be true for 1080p but I found the CRT noise advantage to be on both HD and SD.

You can see motion blur from sources (MPEG compression for instance) but unless there is motion-adaptive deinterlacing or other temporal video processing (like noise reduction) enabled in the projector, I haven't identified any significant "motion blur" attributed to these projectors.I should probably clarify what I wrote above before I mislead anyone, or get attacked for what I wrote. I guess we can debate what is significant while watching films. That does not mean there is no visual blurring on moving high frequency test patterns (moving zone plate for instance) where eye tracking is much more significant. There is, but I don't believe the LCoS response time is significant, but rather the lack of blanking time (and scanning) on the projector vs a CRT monitor.

I Second that. Yesterday a friend of mine connected his PS3 directly and he played Football game and the blur was very easy to spot. Whenever the green field start to scroll horizontally, it looses details and when it the scrolling stops, You notice a lot of details in the terrain and fine textures pops up. No source comrpession here. I also made sure any post processing in the rs2 is disabled unless there is something hidden in the menu that can't be disabled or bypassed anyways.

I made a little program that takes the pics I attached and scroll it around the desktop at speed of 2 pixel 60 times a second. That did confirm my findings.Thinking about it, I suspect video games have moving images, backgrounds, and textures that are more like moving test patterns (see my comments above) that invite eye tracking and hence the loss of resolution is more obvious. Fortunately, for preserving my time, I don't own any video games so this is not something I have any practical experience with.

This is interesting. I noticed this years ago at the first JVC HD2K demo at CEDIA. I'm assuming that it is less of an issue now than it was with that projector.

Art

I assume this is not an issue with 3 Chip dlp as its a PWM display with full time window for each primary.

There is, but I don't believe the LCoS response time is significant, but rather the lack of blanking time (and scanning) on the projector vs a CRT monitor.

Is this related to sample and hold effect or a different phenomenon ? Does Sony's dark frame insertion attempt to address this ?

D

In this case the LCoS devices have about 2.5 mS rise/fall times (usually quoted as total rise+fall response times of 4 mS or 5 mS). The hard part of trying to explain what someone else sees, is that you didn't see it yourself. For instance, some people describe judder while watching film displayed at 60p as a blurring effect.

Say greg, I am sure you already know this but when Manufacturers publish their Rise Fall time, they only calculate it for black->white or White->Black changes. But as you know, grey to grey transition is much slower as less voltage is applied. I know its the case for LCD, and LCOS should do better. Retina persistance and blanking are another factor as well...

I just wanted to point out that I might be particulary sensitive to this issue and it can be irrelevant to many others. I bilieve that if someone doesn't notice this on a regular LCD direct view, then he will definitly not notice it on the RS2.

thats true. LCD and LCOS is a night and day difference for me. LCOS is much better for motion then LCD. Even the Sharp Aquos with 4ms and 120hz blurs a hell of alot more then my Pearl.

There has been a few times were I have seen red fringing on white objects against black backgrounds durring motion on my Pearl. Seems to be a response time issue, but I've only noticed it a handful of times.